Return to Transcripts main page
Amanpour
Interview with Former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert; Interview with "The Traitors Circle" Author and Guardian Columnist Jonathan Freedland. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired November 27, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
President Trump vows an even more intense immigration crackdown after two National Guard members were shot near the White House. The suspect is an
Afghan immigrant. We get the latest.
Then, with ongoing strikes on Gaza and rising violence in the West Bank, what hope is there for peace in the Middle East? I ask former Israeli Prime
Minister Ehud Olmert.
Plus, "The Traitors Circle." The forgotten rebels who resisted the Third Reich. Journalist and author Jonathan Freedland takes us back to 1943
Berlin.
Also, ahead, a special report from a scamming hotspot, the Philippines.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
And we begin in Washington, D.C., where two National Guard members are in critical condition after being shot in broad daylight on Wednesday near the
White House. A suspect is in custody, an Afghan national who came to the United States in 2021 and was granted asylum by the Trump administration in
April this year. The president has condemned the attack as an act of terror, and he vows an immigration crackdown.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: We must now reexamine every single alien who has entered our country from Afghanistan under Biden, and we must take all
necessary measures to ensure the removal of any alien from any country who does not belong here or add benefit to our country. If they can't love our
country, we don't want them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: The government has now suspended processing all immigration cases by Afghans, quote, "indefinitely," pending further review. And it
plans to deploy 500 more National Guard troops in the nation's capital.
Meanwhile, President Trump is in West Palm Beach, Florida, for Thanksgiving, and Correspondent Kristen Holmes is joining us from there
now. Kristen, this is a pretty, you know, sad thing to be happening, of course, on Thanksgiving. You're covering it. What is the latest regarding
the investigation into that criminal attack, and also, of course, the status of the National Guard members?
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. So, what we know right now is that this has now become a worldwide investigation. You
are going to have federal agencies looking into every aspect of this suspect's life, particularly now we know a couple of new details. The fact
that this suspect came over under a government program, as you mentioned, in 2021. We heard from the head of the CIA saying that he had worked with
the CIA in Afghanistan.
So, you're going to be looking essentially at a trek across the ocean to Washington, but actually Washington State, because we have now learned that
the suspect drove in a car from Washington State all the way to Washington, D.C. And there are still a lot of aspects of the suspect and the motive
that we don't know, particularly why he chose National Guardsmen, why he chose these National Guardsmen, and the fact that this proximity to the
White House, what kind of message, if any, was he trying to send?
So, all of this, what we're seeing unfold right now is what we're seeing unfold is the administration is watching all of this, trying to piece
together the motive. And what's been really fascinating about this investigation, as compared to many others that we've seen in this kind of a
tragic situation, is that it really is an all-hands-on-deck situation.
We have heard from the attorney general. We have heard from the FBI. We have heard from the director of DHS. We are hearing from the upper echelon
of every federal agency as they try to figure out what exactly happened. And of course, there are a lot of questions as to whether or not this was
politically motivated, because as we know, having the National Guard on the ground in many of these democratic cities has been a political flashpoint
in America.
AMANPOUR: And, Kristen, what about the National Guard members? Are they out of danger? Are they fighting for their lives? What is their status?
[13:05:00]
HOLMES: We are told that they are still fighting for their lives, that they're still in critical condition. It has been a very confusing 24 hours
when it comes to what exactly is going on with their status and well-being. After one point, the West Virginia governor, because these were two members
of the West Virginia National Guard, said that they had both passed, and they were dead, and then came back and said they were learning new
information. But we do know that they are in critical condition.
AMANPOUR: And let me ask you, because, of course, it's very, very highly politicized, even in President Trump's condemnation of what's going on. He
said, came over in 2021 under Biden. But correct me if I'm wrong, we said that he was, this fellow, was granted asylum, I believe, by the Trump
administration, or they started hearing it. What are the details?
HOLMES: In April. Yes, in April of this year, this man was granted asylum. So, there are going to be a lot of questions here, Christiane. I do think
that this is not going to end up, this part of it, by the way, this investigation is going to end up not being as partisan as it seems right
now, because you do have this happening across administrations.
He came under Biden's administration. He was granted asylum under Trump's. And there are going to be a lot of questions from both Democrats and
Republicans and everyday people who are wondering how this man who ended up shooting point blank to National Guardsmen was granted asylum, how he got
into this country.
So, I do think you're going to see a forensic analysis of essentially the entire program and how this happened to be. I think what you're going to
see in terms of politics is going to be an intense immigration crackdown from President Trump in a way that is not going to just touch Afghanis. We
already know that he has suspended any visa requests from Afghani nationals. And on top of that, he has pledged to look into the status of
any Afghani national that is on American soil right now.
But on top of that, he was talking about other immigrant groups that have nothing to do -- or at least as far as we know right now, have nothing to
do with this shooting. He talked about Somalis in Minnesota ripping off the country. So, this is going to be a way for President Trump to really
bolster some of his initiatives and policies that were already in place, but then ramp them up.
AMANPOUR: Yes. And apparently, looking to deploy more National Guard to the nation's capital. We'll keep following. Kristen, thank you very much
from West Palm Beach.
Now, to the Middle East, where the first phase of the Israel-Hamas ceasefire backed by the United States is winding down. It's been marked by
the latest exchange of remains of one Israeli hostage and 15 Palestinians.
Despite the truce, though, the bloodshed in Gaza has continued at an alarming rate. And Gaza's health ministry says nearly 350 Palestinians have
been killed there since the truce went into effect in October, as aid access and hospital operations remain very limited.
Meanwhile, in the northern occupied West Bank, Israel says it's carrying out a broad counterterrorism operation, including airstrikes and large-
scale raids. The U.N. estimates more than a thousand Palestinians have been killed in the West Bank since October 7th, and at least 42 Israelis have
been killed in Palestinian attacks.
The former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert is a sharp critic of the current government, and he's joining us live from Tel Aviv. Prime Minister
Olmert, welcome to the program.
EHUD OLMERT, FORMER ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: Hello.
AMANPOUR: Let's get down to what's happening in the West Bank because, you know, we know -- and I'll get to you on Gaza, but there is this huge new
military operation. The Israeli government said that they were, you know, really having an anti-terrorist operation there.
There is film that has been released today, and it's on Israeli media, and the IDF says it's investigating what it purports to show, and that is
basically Israeli troops appear to be shown shooting, executing two wanted Palestinians in the City of Jenin. Do you know anything about that, and
what do you make of the Israeli crackdown now in the occupied West Bank?
OLMERT: Well, I'm not familiar with this specific story about Jenin, and I think it has to be checked, and I hope it will be checked and examined in a
proper manner by the Israeli army, and that if it will be verified, and I hope that the necessary measures will be taken and those responsible for it
will be court-martialed. And it's certainly something that needs to be examined carefully.
[13:10:00]
As for the crackdown, there certainly is some terror coming occasionally in the West Bank, and it has to be taken care of in the most effective manner,
and I hope that the Israeli authorities are doing what needs to be done in order to prevent the terror of Palestinians. I'm not certain that they are
doing the same in order to prevent the Jewish terror, which is perpetrated on a daily basis by Israeli settlers in the West Bank. And this is
something which becomes massive and ugly and outrageous and totally unacceptable, intolerable, and unforgivable.
On a daily basis, there are settlers that are cracking down non-involved people, innocent Palestinians. Worst, they are burning their homes and
threatening their lives and burning their olive groves, which, in my mind, shows that these guys have no really any attitude, any real, genuine
attitude towards the land and what grows on the land. Those who can burn the olive groves of Palestinians can burn everything. And, unfortunately,
it is done with the tacit cooperation and non-involvement of the Israeli police and a gross indifference by the Israeli military in the area. And
its time to stop it.
And I'm afraid that the day will come that Israel will be brought to the International Court -- Criminal Court in The Hague, not because of Gaza,
where there is no genocide and there was no genocide, in my judgment, but what is taking place in the West Bank, an area entirely under the control
of the State of Israel and where there are atrocities committed every day by Jews, which is shameful and unbearable and, as I said, unforgivable.
AMANPOUR: You know, Prime Minister, this is incredibly strong stuff to hear from an Israeli, from a Jew, from the former prime minister about the
status of your armed forces, as you say, the tacit approval of the government and the like. You say it has to be stopped immediately. I'm
going to read this to you because the police minister, Itamar Ben-Gvir, who's known to be very far right, the national security minister, has
posted in regards to the original video I told you about, he's posted on X in Hebrew, quote, "Giving full backing to the border guard fighters and IDF
soldiers who fired at wanted terrorists who emerged from a building in Jenin. The fighters acted exactly as expected of them. Terrorists must
die."
So, just what is your response to that? Because, you know, I mean, the state is backing this, and obviously this is still under investigation, and
we can't make a conclusion. But the IDF says that it's investigating it. And you say these kinds of things must stop. But when a minister posts this
and gives full backing, what does that tell you about the general lay of the land?
OLMERT: This minister, minister of national security, as you know very well, I'm sure, Christine, was convicted in court several times of being
involved in terror, Jewish terror, against Palestinians. So, he's the last person on earth that can testify or can observe the atrocities that are
committed by Jews in the territories.
Now, I'm not -- as I said before, I'm not familiar with the specifics of this event, and I don't know what happened. And I hope that the suspicions
are not valid and that there was nothing that is said has actually taken place. But I know of other events which are taking place in other parts of
the West Bank on a daily basis.
And every time the hilltop youth are attacking and burning and penetrating into the private homes of individuals that are not involved in anything and
call for the killing of them, there is not any reaction by the Israeli police, the police of Mr. Ben-Gvir, the national -- minister of national
security, and he's not taking -- the measures are not taken by the army and it happens, and it's shameful.
And, yes, as a Jew, as an Israeli and as a Jew, and as a former prime minister -- and I know that what I say is something that many Israelis
don't like to hear, and they criticize me and they yell at me sometimes when they see me, because they say, why do you say that?
[13:15:00]
And I said, I'd rather speak up in the most explicit manner in order so that everyone in the world, everyone that watch us now and everyone that
will watch you another time will know that there are millions of Israelis which are unhappy with this, which are against this, which are against this
government, where people like Ben-Gvir can be ministers of national security, perpetrating or supporting the perpetration of things which are
totally unacceptable and unbearable, and we'll speak up so that it will stop.
AMANPOUR: So, why do you think this is going on? What is the intention, the mission of this Israeli government? Why doesn't it stop it? And also --
OK, I'll ask you that question first.
OLMERT: Well, I'm not -- you know, I have to say, I wouldn't accuse Prime Minister Netanyahu for wanting that this will happen. I accuse him for not
taking the necessary measures to stop it, knowing that it happens, because those who are responsible for it and those who are acquiescent with it, and
the ministers of Ben-Gvir, Smotrych, and their supporters in the Messianic groups in the Israeli government, I know what they want.
They hope that we will be able to somehow force out the Palestinians from the West Bank, and force the Palestinians out from Gaza, and take over
these territories, and integrate them into the State of Israel, and prepare them for resettlements of Israelis and Jews all over. This is totally
unacceptable.
The majority of the Israeli people are against it, and we are fighting day and night in the streets of Israel, rioting and demonstrating against the
Israeli government for supporting or for ignoring, or for overlooking these events, and entirely not taking into consideration the massive downfall of
the status of the State of Israel, and the perception of the State of Israel as a humanistic country, against everything that we were perceived
to be in the past.
AMANPOUR: You know, I obviously hear your anger, and I hear you wanting to stand up and be counted, and you're speaking your conscience, and it's very
interesting to hear from you. You did say that you did not believe Israel would be taken to the Hague, the War Crimes Tribunal for Gaza, and you
don't go there on the genocide issue, but you have said that you believe the government has condoned or enabled war crimes in Gaza.
So, I want to ask you about the next phase in Gaza. Do you think there is a good faith effort to actually move on to the second phase of what was, you
know, delineated in the 20-point plan? Because the first phase, the ceasefire and the exchange of hostages and prisoners and bodies is about to
be over, and we hear from, you know, Cairo and ongoing talks there about what's next, that they've completely stalled, that Hamas won't
demilitarize, and Israel won't withdraw. According to the plan, it still occupies about half of Gaza. What is the hope for Gaza now?
OLMERT: Israel is not going to pull out from Gaza if Hamas will not be disarmed, and Hamas will not be disarmed all entirely if Israel will not
pull out from Gaza. And the truth is that none of these sides, not the Israeli side, not the Palestinian side, in this particular instance and on
this particular issue, are ready to move on forward in the direction of what President Trump has articulated in the 20-point plan.
The only possible solution is the enforcement by President Trump. And I must tell you something, Christiane. You know, I'm not certain that I know
what President Trump has in mind. I don't know him. I never had a chance to share with him my thoughts and talk to him. But I take this opportunity
because you are watched widely everywhere in the world. There is an opportunity which may be missed.
At this point in life, Trump is the only person on Earth that has the power to make a difference that will change the lives of tens of millions of
people and will do something dramatic that no president before him has been able to do. He has that power now because he can force the Israeli prime
minister to do that which he doesn't want to do. And he can force him to carry on the full implementation of the 20th points, and he has the power
to use the moderators, the Turks and the Qataris and the Egyptians, to force Hamas to disarm, which is essential.
[13:20:00]
And then, he has the power to force the two sides, the Palestinian side and the Israeli side, to start a dialogue for a two-state solution. He has this
power, and he is the only person that can do it, and perhaps the only president that was in a position as he is now, that he can actually force
the side, something that no president before him, because of political circumstances, there and here, that could have done it.
So, what I expect now is that President Trump will take it one step forward. I don't know what to say, and I don't want to say something which
I'm not sure about it, that what exactly is going on on ground, you know. They are violating the agreement. We are violating the agreement. I don't
know.
I know only one thing, that there is one person, President Donald J. Trump, who has the power to force both the Israelis and the Hamas, A, to
accomplish all of what needs to be done in order to end completely the war in Gaza, so that Hamas will be disarmed, there will be a security force,
there will be a new technocratic administration in Gaza instead of Hamas, which will start to rebuild Gaza for the hundreds of thousands of people
which were left without homes and without where to live, and at the same time, that will allow Israel to pull out completely. But this is the first
stage.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
OLMERT: The last stage, the most important stage, is the normalization of the entire Middle East with Saudi Arabia in, with the Emirates, with
Indonesia, with North African countries. That needs to be done in order to achieve it. We have to move forward with the Palestinians towards a two-
state solution.
AMANPOUR: Right.
OLMERT: Only President Trump has the power to force the sides to move ahead with it, and I expect the president to use this power, and we will be
grateful for him for the rest of our lives.
AMANPOUR: I hear you loud and clear, and of course the president has been backed up by a U.N. Security Council resolution that actually approves by
unanimous vote what you're saying, but your prime minister does not believe, and he said over and again, in a Palestinian State. So, there are
going to be elections in your country in the next year.
Do you think, A, these elections will go ahead as planned? And B, what do you think the outcome will be? Where are the people?
OLMERT: We are ahead for a very interesting and perhaps volatile and somewhat shaky year, with political battles which I hope will not erupt
into something worse than that. The prime minister and his gang of thugs and the group of people that are now part of the cabinet and the messianic
groups will do everything they can in order to make sure whether this is within the framework of what we define as democracy or not, in order to win
the elections.
And there are lots of Israelis, and I believe the majority of the Israelis, are prepared now to go into that battle in order to save the State of
Israel, the soul of Israel, and the democracy of the State of Israel. And I'm quite hopeful that the Bibi's government will go down. What will come
up, that maybe we will wait for another interview so that I'll be able to share with you some of my impressions. I don't know yet.
I know only one thing. At the end of the day, we have to save democracy in Israel. We have to restore unity and solidarity within the Israeli society.
But first and foremost, we have to address ourselves to the most important, sensitive, complex issue of our lives, which is our conflict with the
Palestinians. And that is something that will be on top of the national agenda. If it will not be on top of the national agenda, it will be very
bad. If it will be on top of our agenda, there is a chance that lives will be different for us and for our neighbors, and perhaps far more than just
our neighbors. And that's what we are trying to do now.
AMANPOUR: Well, it's a massive mission, and it's really interesting to hear you. And, you know, you have spoken loud and clear. Thank you very
much, Former Prime Minister. And I just have to say, we still hope to get members of the current government on our program to talk about all these
issues.
So, still to come, "The Traitors Circle," a story of resistance inside Nazi Germany. Journalist and author Jonathan Freedland joins me after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:25:00]
AMANPOUR: Now, how far would you go to stand up to tyranny? Could you risk your life for freedom? In his new book, "The Traitors Circle," journalist
Jonathan Freedland examines those questions and an extraordinary story of heroic resistance. It follows a group of well-connected, privileged Germans
who secretly stood up against Hitler's regime until a shocking betrayal from within.
And Jonathan Freedland is joining me now here in London. I want to start with what you've taken on as a bit of a mission, I think, because I think
you've said that, you know, there are many stories of resistors, but almost no stories of internal German, maybe even members of the Nazi party, I
don't know, but German resistance to Hitler's regime. Tell me about that.
JONATHAN FREEDLAND, AUTHOR, "THE TRAITORS CIRCLE" AND GUARDIAN COLUMNIST: It's true. I think we have an image of resistance often associated with the
French resistance, putting bombs on railway lines and on bridges and so on. In Germany, I think people know about the von Stauffenberg plot, July the
20th, "Valkyrie," the movie with a slightly miscast Tom Cruise. People know about that, or they know about the White Rose movement, Sophie Scholl, and
that's really it. They think after that, all the other Germans pretty well lined up behind Adolf Hitler.
And look, that is mainly true, 95 percent, according to an estimate by an Allied liberator, war crimes investigator in 1945, fell in line. But it
means about 3 million Germans, which is not nothing --
AMANPOUR: That's not nothing.
FREEDLAND: -- were jailed, were arrested, were detained for crimes of dissent, sometimes no more than a critical remark, and about half a million
of those were killed.
AMANPOUR: I mean, that's really important to hear, because I remember, for me, Daniel Goldhagen's book, you know, "Hitler's Willing Executioners" is
what I have in my mind. And to hear this is very rare.
FREEDLAND: And I grew up with that narrative quite directly. My mother imposed a full boycott of German goods in our house, no VW car, no Siemens
dishwasher, because her own mother had been killed by the last rocket of the Blitz to fall on London, the last V2, killed her mother when my mother
was just eight years old. And after that, she was left with a kind of feeling that there were no good Germans. Every last one of them was
implicated, very particularly in the crime of the Holocaust, the bomb that killed my mother's mother, took out a building in London's East End, killed
133 people, 120 of them were Jews.
Just a coincidence. But it meant, as I put in the book, my mother was not a Holocaust survivor, but she felt the breath of the Shoah on her neck. And
it meant she felt that there were irredeemable -- there was an irredeemable guilt about the Germans, every last one of them.
I then came across this story and thought, it's true that most fell in line, but some did not. And that makes the heroism all the more
extraordinary.
AMANPOUR: Your book begins -- I mean, it's a thriller as well, at an afternoon tea party in Berlin, as we said, in September '43. So, the party
group -- partygoers are a group that could come from maybe an Agatha Christie novel, members of the German aristocracy, as you say, of the
diplomatic corps, high place government officials.
So, what made this -- we're now talking about the story of your book, which is a true story, what made this tea party special? And how does it play
into your story?
FREEDLAND: Well, here might be a time for me to just read this little excerpt, just these couple of paragraphs, because it says, they were drawn
from the upper reaches of German high society, from the world of grand townhouses and country estates of knights at the opera and embassy balls.
[13:30:00]
They had titles and jewels and impeccable contacts. They were the last people to be subject to an arrest at dawn. And they were not a random
collection of individuals coincidentally picked up on the same January day. They were a group made up of people who had secretly opposed the Nazi
regime for the best part of a decade, meeting and operating in the shadows, spreading the word, combining their unique talents, saving lives. But now
they stood accused of the crime regarded as the gravest possible offence in Hitler's Germany, treason. They were branded traitors to the Third Reich.
AMANPOUR: And what brought them together? How did they decide to form this group? What -- yes.
FREEDLAND: The grouping was in a way informal. There were all these overlapping social circles in the Germany of that time. And one of the key
issues when any more than two people met was trust. Could you trust this other person you were speaking to?
Here, the bonds of class played an important part. These were really posh people here. There wasn't just one countess in this group, there were two.
There was a former top mandarin from the Ministry of Finance. Those were people with, you know, landed estates and so on. So, there was a sense that
we know each other.
You know, there were two people there -- one, her father had served in Bismarck's cabinet. The other, his uncle. They knew each other. That was
good enough. So, what they had in common was this defiance or resistance of Adolf Hitler. They felt they could come together with kindred spirits,
trading information, gossip even, but also know-how on how to do what they were doing. What they did not know is that someone sitting around that
table, who they thought was one of their own, thought was a kindred spirit, was about to betray all the rest.
AMANPOUR: And had infiltrated specifically?
FREEDLAND: That's right. I mean, we -- I -- you know, because it's a whodunit, I don't want to give away too much.
AMANPOUR: Yes, yes, yes. Don't tell me.
FREEDLAND: I don't want to give away too much. I want readers to be reading this thinking, is it the former model? Is it the doctor? Is it the
headmistress? Who is it?
AMANPOUR: But the anecdote that we are allowed to talk about is about one of these, I think she's a countess named Maria von Maltzan. She had a
Jewish lover named Hans Hirschel. Now, when the Gestapo came to investigate a tip that she was hiding Jews in her apartment, Maria took a potentially
fatal gamble to save her lover's life. Tell us what happened. It is extraordinary that part.
FREEDLAND: It is an extraordinary story. So, there were Jews in hiding in Berlin. That's an incredible idea. While they're killing millions in the
Holocaust, there are about 1,500 hidden Jews. They were known as submarines. They had to be silent, hidden and below the surface. Among
those, you know, Maria turned her home into an unofficial refuge. She would have like 20 on any one night hiding in this tiny apartment, among them her
own secret Jewish lover.
They devised this plan that if ever the Gestapo came, he would hide in this kind of cavity, this box under a sofa, under the sofa bed. Inside there
would be a glass of water, a couple of tablets of codeine to suppress his cough. And she'd set this system of bolts in there so he could lock himself
from the inside.
Sure enough, the Gestapo came to call, pounded on the door, they searched the apartment. He's in there, in that box. At one point she's sitting on
the box, denying there are any Jews in the building. He's inches below her. They finally are about to pry open the thing. They're wrestling with it.
And she says, look, if you're so certain there's a Jew here, take out your gun and shoot through the couch right now. And there is this standoff, this
moment of silence. Hans, her lover, is waiting there in the box thinking, she's about to ensure that I'm shot, killed now.
And she says, just as they're reaching for their holsters, she says, but if you do it, I demand a credit note promising to pay for the repair of the
sofa, repairing the upholstery in advance and in writing. And she knew the Nazi bureaucrats so well, she knew their mind, that of course they wouldn't
want to fill in an expenses form and get permission and they put the guns back.
AMANPOUR: Honestly, that's incredible. And that's true.
FREEDLAND: That's a true story, documented. Everything in here comes from documents, letters, diaries, testimonies, court transcripts, word for word.
Even the dialogue of that incredible scene is there in the documents.
AMANPOUR: I mean, that presence of mind and that willingness to take that gamble is --
FREEDLAND: And the confidence of her class to face them down.
AMANPOUR: And the confidence. OK.
FREEDLAND: I think her class -- with all of them, I think that plays a big part, that they felt these were the -- they felt they were the true
Germans, that they were the representatives of a better Germany that had existed in the past and would exist again in the future.
AMANPOUR: And formally, wasn't everybody forced to join the Nazi party? What was that? I mean, those people who gathered?
FREEDLAND: So, of those people who gathered, there was, it's quite true. One of them had quite late, 1937, finally under pressure, joined the Nazi
party, was convinced that there was no way he was going to have any role, any leverage or power, unless he was inside the party. And made that age-
old decision, which was, I'm more use from within than just protesting on the outside.
[13:35:00]
There were dilemmas these people went through that will resonate, I think, down the decades. Are you more effective keeping your head down, keeping
silent, or making a big loud noise even if that court lands you in trouble? Should you make common cause with other people? Should you wait a bit, see
how it plays out? Those were the things they wrestled with, and those are the dilemmas people who've lived in authoritarian societies will be
familiar with down the decades in many other places.
AMANPOUR: Can I ask you a question? You know, you've written this about these people, Germans who, like your mother, wanted to believe that
everybody was guilty, et cetera. Given the real politicization and the terrible feelings that there are all over the place right now, and
everything is weaponized, do you get any backlash for this? Are there people who say to you, how can you, you know, a member of the Jewish
community actually tell these stories?
FREEDLAND: A few people have wondered about it, saying, what would my mother think about this? They haven't said it necessarily in a hostile way,
but I think my -- but they have asked it, and I think that there is -- I hope, that there is something sort of healing about somebody who -- you
know, a Jew like me, who was raised on those stories, in no way exonerating the German nation.
I mean, that fact I mentioned before, 3 million dissenters is a big figure, but so is the 95 percent who stayed in line and raised their right hand in
a Hitler salute. Both are true, but I think we don't do any service to history if we exclude and just pretend those people who were brave and
defiant, who took enormous risks, where the only possibility was downside for them, they had nothing to gain.
These people were of such established position, they would have been left alone, they would have been fine if they'd just kept their heads down. That
makes their heroism all the more admirable.
AMANPOUR: It's really fascinating. And now, one of the through lines is -- of this group, religion.
FREEDLAND: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Many of these Germans were devout Christians, believers on authority higher than the regime. What role did religion play in this
particular group?
FREEDLAND: Well, I think you've put your finger on it. I think the connecting thread in this group, and people always ask themselves when they
look back at this, what would I have done? And they ask that meaning, what does it take to be the sort of person who resists? They want to know, is
there a type, personality type? The connecting thread with this group is they believed in an authority higher than Adolf Hitler.
For some, it was their class, it was the aristocracy. We'll be here long after this horrible little man has gone. For others, it was Jesus Christ,
it was God. They believed that when the Gestapo knocked on the door, yes, that's frightening to be called to account by the SAS or the Gestapo, but
ultimately, they're going to be held to account by Jesus, by God, is how they saw it. And they needed to be able to, as it were, look their maker in
the eye and feel they did the right thing.
Once they had made that decision, that gave them the confidence to face down the authorities and to engage, even in the small gestures. Just one
story I always particularly like because I think people should have a broader definition of resistance. Yes, some of these people were involved
even in a plot to kill Hitler, one of them, but there's another who made it her habit. She's one of the two countesses.
AMANPOUR: And women played a big part.
FREEDLAND: Six of the nine or 10 people in that group were women. That's itself fascinating, and we'll come on to something about them. But this one
young woman, she was very fearful. She wasn't sort of gung-ho. She made a point of always walking around the streets of Germany, of Berlin, with two
bags of heavy shopping. Why? Because if she ran into someone who greeted her with a Hitler salute, she would not be able to reciprocate. They would
raise their right arm, and she would go, sorry, my hands are full. It's a tiny thing. It's just a gesture.
AMANPOUR: No, but it's big.
FREEDLAND: It's big because she understood instinctively, if everyone did what she did, eventually there would have been no Hitler salute. It's just
that one individual doing one gesture, one striking out for resistance that can make all the difference. And there were several women in here, in this
story, and they too have something fascinating in common.
AMANPOUR: Well, I want to know much more, but our time is up for this time. And really, really an edge-of-your-seat tale, and important. And,
Jonathan Freedland, thank you so much.
FREEDLAND: Thanks so much.
AMANPOUR: I haven't asked you for spoilers.
FREEDLAND: No spoilers.
AMANPOUR: And the details of the betrayal. Coming up, the multi-million- dollar scamming industry, trafficking women abroad to work in appalling conditions. Hanako Montgomery reports from the Philippines after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:40:00]
AMANPOUR: And next to Asia, where multi-billion-dollar scamming industry is evolving at an alarming rate and destroying lives in the process, it's
not just those cheated out of money online who fall victim to these operations. More and more young women are being lured abroad and forced to
work for these places in conditions amounting to modern slavery.
Correspondent Hanako Montgomery traveled to the Philippines, one of the region's hot spots, and spoke to some of the families who've been left
behind.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We miss you.
ROSE, SISTER OF TRAFFICKING VICTIM: We miss you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I miss my mama.
HANAKO MONTGOMERY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This little boy's mother is missing. He's now being raised by his aunt. After his mother left
home six months ago for her first steady job in years, or so she thought.
ROSE: It's really been tough, especially these past two months.
MONTGOMERY (voice-over): Rose tells us that her sister never made it to Taiwan, where she was promised work as a customer service agent. Instead,
she was trafficked to Myanmar and forced to run online scams.
MONTGOMERY: And what does she say about her experience there?
ROSE: When she is able to message me, she always mention that she want to die there. So, I always mention to her that, please don't do that.
MONTGOMERY (voice-over): Rose's sister is one of thousands trapped in the multi-billion-dollar scam industry, fueled by corruption and built on human
suffering. Run by Chinese crime networks, these scam compounds thrive in Cambodia and war-torn Myanmar. But our investigation led us to the
Philippines, a key link in this global criminal industry. And where traffickers recruit the very victims forced to keep these scams running.
MONTGOMERY: When did your family members go missing?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: November 2024.
MONTGOMERY (voice-over): Rose introduces us to other families, each with a missing daughter or sister. In recent years, traffickers increasingly
target women, chosen for their looks and voices to seduce men in romance scams. In the compounds, they're often tortured and even sexually abused.
CHARLOTTE, MOTHER OF TRAFFICKING VICTIM: My daughter was told to strip naked in front of the camera by her boss. When he gets high on drugs. No
bra, all clothes are taken off. She is ashamed of what happened.
MONTGOMERY (voice-over): But the Philippines doesn't just supply victims to run these scams, it harbored them too.
MONTGOMERY: We've driven two hours outside Manila to one of the biggest scam compounds in the Philippines. We're told it's nearly 10 hectares. And
it was raided over a year ago. But we can still get a tour inside with some government escorts to see what's been left behind.
The people who are working here for these scams, how many do you think were trafficked here?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Around 5,000 to 6,000.
MONTGOMERY (voice-over): The Philippines government has charged Chinese crime boss, Huang Zhiyang, for allegedly trafficking victims to work at the
sprawling complex under the guise of a legal casino.
MONTGOMERY: So, this is one of the rooms where scammers would work. And we found scripts and notebooks that detail how they would financially entrap
victims.
MONTGOMERY (voice-over): Each book reads like a manual in deceit. It's a step-by-step guide on how to forge intimacy.
MONTGOMERY: Can I go in?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
[13:45:00]
MONTGOMERY (voice-over): In another part of the compound, we're shown a dorm where trafficked women lived. Traces of their lives abandoned in a
hurry. Overlooking the compound is the kingpin's mansion.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is their living room, the sala.
MONTGOMERY: Pretty luxurious and spacious.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. This is the big boss, big boss place.
MONTGOMERY: It's just astounding to see the difference between the dorms and then the way this man lived.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is his bathroom.
MONTGOMERY (voice-over): The Philippines government says these sites have now been shut down. But not the trafficking networks behind them.
MONTGOMERY: We've heard that there are Filipinos recruiting other Filipinos to work at these scam compounds abroad. Is the government doing
anything to prevent this from occurring?
GILBERT CRUZ, EX-EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, PRESIDENTIAL ANTI-ORGANIZED CRIME COMMISSION: No, no. I have to be honest that it still exists.
MONTGOMERY: It sounds like there are multiple things in the works to try to get more help to victims. But it's taking a really, really long time.
Why is it taking so long?
CRUZ: This is a worldwide problem, OK? If some countries allowed that these things will happen, OK, our people will go there. Because thinking
that --
MONTGOMERY (voice-over): Gilbert Cruz has since been replaced. The latest in a revolving door of government leadership that struggled to combat
organized crime.
To understand what life in these compounds is like and the forces that pull Filipino women into them, we visit a different part of Manila to meet
Casie.
MONTGOMERY (voice-over): Hi, good to meet you, Hanako.
MONTGOMERY (voice-over): Casie is a single mother of four.
And some people is --
MONTGOMERY (voice-over): So, when she found a job promising a thousand dollars a month, more than triple her salary, it felt like a lifeline.
Instead, Casie says she was trapped in Cambodia, forced to impersonate officials and extort money from hundreds of people.
CASIE, REPATRIATED TRAFFICKING SURVIVOR: Hi, good day. My name is Casie. I'm calling from Verizon. May I speak to Mr. John?
MONTGOMERY: You still remember it?
CASIE: I'm not doing. I just -- hello. Hello. Hello. Because I don't want.
MONTGOMERY (voice-over): In these compounds, refusing to work can mean torture. But Casie fought back, literally, beating the woman who trafficked
her.
CASIE: I did like this, I pulled her hand. And then I go like pssh, psh. And then make it -- because I will tell her, you son of a (INAUDIBLE). What
have I done wrong to you? You are a Filipino, but you sell us out. Just for money.
MONTGOMERY: It's pretty brave what you did.
CASIE: Yes, but deep inside I'm scared because maybe that one is my last day.
MONTGOMERY: Casie talked about how so many Filipinos like herself get trapped into working at these scam compounds. And just looking around her
neighborhood, you can see why. I mean, there are so few job opportunities and the economic situation is very dire for many Filipinos in the country.
MONTGOMERY (voice-over): Overseas workers are the backbone of some Filipino families and of the economy. The money they send home makes up
over 8 percent of the country's GDP.
DANIELE MARCHESI, PHILIPPINES COUNTRY MANAGER, UNODC: In this context, also women are particularly vulnerable because, indeed, many of the
Filipino workers abroad are women.
MONTGOMERY (voice-over): Single mothers, like Casie and Rose's sister, are prime targets for traffickers. Lured by job postings on social media that
promise a one-way ticket out of poverty. For years, law enforcement and governments have failed to keep up with the industry, outpaced at every
turn by professional criminals and their ability to exploit new technology.
MARCHESI: The phenomenon is extremely at the edge, at the front of technological advance. So, they're using A.I. to change the image of the
faces of the people, to use different models.
MONTGOMERY (voice-over): These models are crucial to the scam industry. And as business grows more organized and professional, some even post
audition tapes on social media. Hoping to make deception a full-time job.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 5'6" in height. My current weight is 52 kilos.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm a fast learner, and I can work under pressure.
MONTGOMERY (voice-over): CNN obtained one model's contract that spells out their duties clearly. They have to look attractive and wealthy enough to
fool rich victims. Since they often target several people at once, they use A.I. face filters to become whoever the scammers need them to be.
To see just how convincing the technology is, I try one myself.
MONTGOMERY: Wow. There is a lot to choose from. There are some celebrities, some that look like real people, and then some that clearly
look like they were generated by A.I. It's so strange to see my face look like this.
[13:50:00]
The technology is actually pretty good. It clearly moves with my own face. So, you can see why someone who is FaceTiming someone, video calling
someone on the other side of the world, might be easily deceived.
MONTGOMERY (voice-over): Weeks after we spoke to Rose, her sister was rescued from Myanmar. One of thousands of Filipino women finally making it
home, like Casie.
MONTGOMERY: How are you doing now that you're back in the Philippines?
CASIE: It's very hard, but I'm happy because I'm with my kids already. I'm safe, I'm alive, I will not die.
MONTGOMERY (voice-over): For Casie, home is a return to her family's warmth, and to the same unforgiving life that first sent her looking for a
way out.
Hanako Montgomery, CNN, Manila, Philippines.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Now, to a creative bid for more tourism dropping from the skies. After years of war, local authorities in Libya are trying to attract
international visitors, starting with a brand-new skydiving center in Benghazi, as correspondent Isobel Yeung now reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ISOBEL YEUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We are flying over Benghazi, Libya right now, which just a few years ago was the scene of some very heavy fighting.
But right now, we're up in the skies with a bunch of skydivers who have come in from all over the world. Pretty insane people to jump out of a
military helicopter. Just for fun.
YEUNG (voice-over): Here in Libya, things have changed. Just a decade ago, ISIS was a powerful force. Fierce battles between jihadi fighters and the
Libyan National Army raged across the territory. Benghazi itself was already a buzzword in American politics.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Take a look at Benghazi.
HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: Benghazi.
BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNTED STATES: Benghazi.
SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): Benghazi.
REP. JIM JORDON (R-OH): Benghazi.
JOHN MCCAIN, FORMER ARIZONA SENATOR: Benghazi.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Welcome back. We're following breaking news this morning.
YEUNG (voice-over): In 2012, militants allied with al-Qaeda killed the U.S. ambassador Chris Stevens, sparking a partisan firestorm in Washington.
The politics may have moved on, but the scars of war are everywhere. Libyans are keen for a rebrand, and thrill-seekers from around the world
are all too happy to help out.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
YEUNG: How was it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was amazing.
YEUNG: How do you feel?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I felt like I just had sex.
YEUNG (voice-over): People from 37 countries have come to inaugurate the skydiving center.
YEUNG: How are you feeling?
BRADEN ROSEBOROUGH, SKYDIVER: I'm feeling great.
YEUNG: Yes?
ROSEBOROUGH: I'm really excited. It's going to be incredible, I think. Yes.
YEUNG: Were you nervous about coming to Libya at all?
ROSEBOROUGH: A little bit, yes.
YEUNG: What do you think of when you think of Libya?
ROSEBOROUGH: All that I hear as an American is, like, Benghazi and Hillary's e-mails. As I started to kind of research the country, you know,
it has an amazing history. It was too good of an opportunity to pass up to explore a new place.
YEUNG: I mean, you're clearly an adrenaline junkie.
ROSEBOROUGH: Sure.
YEUNG: Is part of the appeal coming to a place that has been through a lot that, you know, has seen a lot of adrenaline itself?
ROSEBOROUGH: I didn't think about it that way, but it was more of a unique experience for me that I was excited about.
YEUNG (voice-over): From fighting off ISIS to facilitating adrenaline junkies, the Libyan National Army are helping run things here, looking to
Dubai for inspiration and expertise.
COL. MOHAMMED EBREYK, LIBYAN NATIONAL ARMY (through translator): Our goal is to send a clear message to the world, that Libya is ready to be a
pioneer in tourism.
YEUNG: I mean, it's just a few years ago that there was war here. Were you fighting?
EBREYK (through translator): We fought not only in this area, we took part in operations across multiple regions of Libya.
YEUNG: Is this what you were fighting for?
EBREYK (through translator): This is a great joy for us. For every Libyan and Arab citizen. The entire team and all the staff here are delighted.
YEUNG: Do you have a message for Americans or people outside of here who might be considering a trip to Libya?
EBREYK: Welcome in Libya, land of peace.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[13:55:00]
AMANPOUR: When fact can be stranger than fiction. And finally, the Putin- eyed view of this festive season. Perhaps unshockingly, the president who likes to bear his chest and proffer his manliness features in hundreds of
New Year calendars across Russian retailers.
Here is king of the judo mat, there cruising to some victory in a snowmobile. The calendars have become somewhat of a tradition in Russia,
with past editions featuring, yes, the infamous shirtless Putin astride his horse.
Each glorious pin-up offers Putin's words of wisdom. For example, this year, January pointedly reads, Russia's border never ends. Perhaps the next
one will say, no justice, no peace.
That's it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. Remember, you can always
catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media. Thank you for watching. Happy Thanksgiving for those who celebrate, and goodbye from
London.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
