Return to Transcripts main page
Amanpour
Interview with Journalist and "What's the Monarchy For?" Host David Dimbleby; Interview with "The Loneliness of Sonia and Sunny" Author Kiran Desai; Interview with State Senator Zaynab Mohamed (D-MN). Aired 1-2p ET
Aired December 10, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
As a wave of scandals threatens to engulf Britain's best-loved institutions, I asked veteran BBC journalist David Dimbleby about the
challenges facing the broadcaster and his new documentary, What's the Monarchy For?
Then, a triumphant return to fiction for Booker Prize-winning author Kiran Desai. She tells me about her new novel, "The Loneliness of Sonia and
Sunny," and why it took two decades to write.
Plus, another startling diatribe from Donald Trump as he plays up his anti- immigrant agenda. Hari Sreenivasan speaks to Democratic State Senator Zaynab Mohamed about how the administration's hostile policies are hitting
her community.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
It's been a year like no other for two of Britain's best-known institutions. The BBC, the country's independent public broadcaster, has
found its editorial integrity in question, and it's been forced to defend its practices on multiple occasions. It lost two of its top executives last
month and faced the threat of a multi-billion-dollar lawsuit from President Trump over a misleading edit in a Panorama documentary.
The British monarchy, too, is under greater scrutiny than perhaps ever before. Revelations of former Prince Andrew's relationship with the
convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein have badly damaged the royal's reputation.
David Dimbleby is a veteran journalist who knows both institutions very well. He spent decades as one of the BBC's best-known presenters covering
national events, from elections to coronations, and as well as being the face of the flagship political debate show "Question Time." Years later, he
is still asking the questions Britain's most want answered, like what's the monarchy for, which is his latest project airing on the BBC now.
So, David Dimbleby, welcome to the program.
DAVID DIMBLEBY, JOURNALIST AND HOST, "WHAT'S THE MONARCHY FOR?": Thank you, Christiane.
AMANPOUR: So, you know, you are this institution yourself.
DIMBLEBY: I'm not an institution.
AMANPOUR: Well, you kind of are. People want to say that you are.
DIMBLEBY: Unlike you, I'm a broadcaster.
AMANPOUR: But you have a father, you have a brother. All of the Dimbleby family has been very, very important in chronicling Britain, really, over
the decades. What was it that made you want to do this particular one as someone who's actually been covering the royals for all these years? Now,
you say, what's the monarchy for?
DIMBLEBY: It goes back to something the Queen said 30 years ago, which was that all institutions benefit from criticism, including the monarchy, and
none of them should avoid scrutiny. And that's been my watchword.
And what made me interested in doing it now, which is 35 years after she made that speech, her annus horribilis, as she called it, when everybody
was getting divorced and Windsor Castle caught fire, all sorts of hell let loose, the reason for doing it now was I suddenly realized that the BBC had
never actually done it. They did the occasional Andrew interview when he's in disgrace, Diana when she's in trouble, you know, they interviewed her,
but they've never looked at the monarchy as an institution.
I thought I'd been covering events for the monarchy, which is different, but let's just have a look at how the thing works because, and this is the
important point, in Scotland and Wales, remember we're four countries in the U.K., in Scotland and Wales there's now a narrow majority against
monarchy and a rising number of young people in this country against monarchy. So, it seemed to me a good moment to say, is it working? Is it
how it should be?
AMANPOUR: OK. So, you're right, there's always questions about should this be a republic, should it be a monarchy? Should the monarchy have influence
because they're not elected? All of that kind of stuff. But you know because you covered it, when the Queen was there the monarchy was very,
very popular and actually Prince William, Prince of Wales and the Princess of Wales, they're also personally very, very popular in their roles.
DIMBLEBY: Yes, agree.
AMANPOUR: So, when you dug into it, did you find that it was open to scrutiny? Were you able to actually set yourself a mission and find the
answers easily?
DIMBLEBY: I tell you, it's incredibly difficult. I wrote to the BBC saying, I'd like to do the monarchy and these are the three subjects I'd
like to do, their power, their wealth and their image.
[13:05:00]
And to my amazement the BBC agreed and they backed me all the way through about this. But getting people to speak about the monarchy, it was like
blood out of a stone. I mean, we did have two private secretaries in the end who were brilliant but they speak in a kind of cryptic way. Nobody
comes out and says, well this is this, this is that. If you talk about taxation or money, they're very defensive.
If you talk about -- I mean, there was a wonderful one about whether when Diana was killed in Paris, whether they should have come back quicker to
London and the expression the private secretary at the time used is maybe we were a bit behind the curve. It's that kind of language you have. But
you get -- you can get -- you can discover how it works, I think.
AMANPOUR: She was killed in that tragic car crash of course and actually I think the royal family was caught totally off guard, wasn't it --
DIMBLEBY: Yes, yes.
AMANPOUR: -- by the massive national and actually international reaction to her death.
DIMBLEBY: Yes, yes. I mean, I think they have great difficulty. You know, they're a family is the other side of this. They are a family. I mean, as
with Andrew, you know, he's Charles' brother. So, they were looking after the kids, Diana's kids. And there's this conflict all the time between the
family and the institution which is difficult.
But there's another much more important conflict which is that outside the U.K., outside Britain, they are like the Kardashians. They're glamorous. I
mean, in the United States it is unbelievable. There's a whole channel devoted to the royal family and they're obsessed by what they see as the
glamour.
But back here in Britain they have a job to do as head of state and those two things are in conflict. There's the glamour on the one hand with sort
of all the, you know, gorgeous coaches and the trumpets and the drums and the horses and all that stuff. And that's one side of a projection of
Britain which Donald Trump falls for, for instance.
AMANPOUR: Yes, yes. So does everybody.
DIMBLEBY: And the other is that they do have the tricky job of being head of a country that is suffering badly economically at the moment, has got a
lot of problems, and they have to kind of attune themselves to doing that job which is a different job from being sent out to Australia or to Canada
or to the USA.
AMANPOUR: Yes. So, we're going to get to that in a little bit. But I think you would also, I don't think, equivalent with the fact that their glamour,
their visibility, their enduring, you know, presence is also a vital part of Britain's soft power. It, you know, sends the British message out in a
great, you know, and colorful and respected way.
DIMBLEBY: Yes.
AMANPOUR: But it also gets a huge amount of tourism here and adds significantly to the GDP, right?
DIMBLEBY: No, I dispute the tourism one.
AMANPOUR: All right.
DIMBLEBY: In fact, the Tourist Board gave up saying this 20 years ago because they decided it couldn't be proven.
AMANPOUR: Really? I'm late for that part.
DIMBLEBY: It couldn't be proven. But in terms of soft power, I mean, there's one -- there are instances where it can really work. In Ireland,
for instance, she was the first --
AMANPOUR: The Queen.
DIMBLEBY: The Queen was the first sovereign to set foot in Ireland, in an independent Ireland. It was a British colony before. And that has a kind of
healing effect, yes.
AMANPOUR: And met with the leaders of the IRA after the Good Friday Agreement and that also had a pretty phenomenal effect as well.
DIMBLEBY: Yes, and you have to ask whether a president would be as powerful --
AMANPOUR: Exactly.
DIMBLEBY: -- as -- for some reason, as an inherited title. I'm not sure I understand why exactly. I mean, I don't actually understand the mystery or
the mystique of monarchy, though I've covered it countless times.
AMANPOUR: Well, to hear you not understand it is a little troubling for me because they always say, never explain, never complain. So, they know that
they're a mystery. But I want to get to some actual things from your -- you talk about the power, right?
DIMBLEBY: Yes.
AMANPOUR: You've investigated power, money and --
DIMBLEBY: Image.
AMANPOUR: -- image, right? That one hasn't come out yet. That's the third.
DIMBLEBY: No, that's right.
AMANPOUR: Yes. So, here is the power thing. So, they are not elected, they're a constitutional monarchy, but the prime minister is elected. But
every single week, the prime minister, I believe it's on a Tuesday, goes for their weekly audience with the Queen. Plays have been made about this.
Films have been made about this.
And here is what David Cameron has said, because you spoke to him, about his meetings with the late Queen. Let's have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID CAMERON, FORMER U.K. PRIME MINISTER: Well, you never knew what she really -- she protected her impartiality and being above politics, you
know, religiously, so you'd never really get a feeling.
DIMBLEBY: But you must have an indication when you're talking to a person in private, whether they're looking at you in a steely way.
CAMERON: All I would say, she was very careful not to express an opinion.
DIMBLEBY: No, that's different.
CAMERON: Yes, yes.
DIMBLEBY: But you can tell whether what you're saying is being happily received or unhappily received.
CAMERON: Yes.
DIMBLEBY: Did you?
[13:10:00]
CAMERON: I'm not going to answer that.
DIMBLEBY: You can always tell by the questions people ask what they think.
CAMERON: Well, you can think. You think you can. But you don't always -- I mean, it doesn't always mean you're right.
DIMBLEBY: This E.U. referendum, Prime Minister, are you sure it's a good idea?
CAMERON: Are you asking me whether I think it was a good idea or --
DIMBLEBY: No, no. (INAUDIBLE).
CAMERON: Well, you know, even an actor of your distinction is not capable of that, so I'm sorry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: OK, so that's really interesting. And Tony Blair talks about how he loved his meetings and many of the prime minister's, and apparently the
Queen loved the old-school, old Labour, Harold Wilson as a prime minister. People didn't imagine that would be possible because they assumed different
politics.
But what about the referendum? Because, actually, it's such a consequential thing that has knocked this country for six in some ways, many analysts
would say, and the polls are very different now than they were 10 years ago. It's said that -- you know, and many people want to say that she
wasn't for it. What do you think? What have you learned?
DIMBLEBY: I have no idea.
AMANPOUR: You have no idea? OK.
DIMBLEBY: I have no idea what she said. I know the one thing she was in favor of was voting to retain the United Kingdom. Do you remember that,
when we had a vote on whether Scotland should be independent?
AMANPOUR: Yes.
DIMBLEBY: And she said something like, think very carefully. My point isn't that. My point is, whatever goes on at those meetings -- and I just
hope it's not the king telling the prime minister or advising the prime minister or raising issues, because we're a democracy.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, you --
DIMBLEBY: And that's not his job.
AMANPOUR: Right.
DIMBLEBY: That's my --
AMANPOUR: But he does also have an education and a view.
DIMBLEBY: Yes. But you know --
AMANPOUR: I know, I know, but I'm just leading into the next little bit.
DIMBLEBY: OK. All right, all right.
AMANPOUR: You're just leading into the bit, because the king is adamant, you know, that -- well, anyway, he spent a lot of time writing. They call
them the Spider Letters, right?
DIMBLEBY: 2,000 letters a year, he said.
AMANPOUR: 2,000. That's a lot. To the government.
DIMBLEBY: And handwritten.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
DIMBLEBY: And long letters.
AMANPOUR: Yes. Well, then, there was a court case trying to release them. Finally, they had to release them. You spoke to Dominic Grieve, I think,
who was Attorney General at one point around this.
DIMBLEBY: Yes.
AMANPOUR: What do you make of those letters? Do you think they were demanding? Were they just advisory? Were they -- was it a bad thing that
the king, from his non-political perch, can have a view on certain important things like climate and other such stuff?
DIMBLEBY: I think he's kind of -- I wouldn't say pig-headed. He has a -- he's always -- there's an element in him of sort of self-righteousness,
that he sort of has thought things through that nobody else has thought through.
AMANPOUR: But he was ahead of his time and ahead of the curve on the climate, on the environment.
DIMBLEBY: On homeopathy.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
DIMBLEBY: Which the NHS have ruled out. He still bats on about the bats away. He fell under the spell of gurus who've since been discredited, like
Laurens van der Post. He's subject -- I mean, he's a very passionate person. I don't know him at all. Let me just say that.
AMANPOUR: Your brother --
DIMBLEBY: My brother's a friend of his.
AMANPOUR: Yes, he wrote the definitive biography, I think.
DIMBLEBY: Yes, wrote a biography and made a long film.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
DIMBLEBY: I don't know him. But he has opinions. OK, everybody has opinions. The question is whether, as head of state, it's his job,
unelected, to push those views.
AMANPOUR: Did he push them or just share them? I mean, I don't know.
DIMBLEBY: I think if The Prince of Wales, it comes out in the films, if he's sharing his view, that amounts to pushing.
AMANPOUR: And how much of them were taken on board then by the government?
DIMBLEBY: Difficult to tell.
AMANPOUR: OK.
DIMBLEBY: You can't tell. I mean, the interesting one is the thing about housing. He's got a bee in his bonnet about architecture. Hates modern
architecture. All right. Half the country hates modern architecture. Wants everything to be classical. And he went on and on about that, and he
stopped buildings going up in London simply by saying they're a carbuncle, that mustn't exist. And that was real influence.
When he becomes king, he does something that no monarch has ever done before. He goes on a visit with the prime minister to see a housing estate
in Cornwall that he's built, he, the king, and likes to try and persuade -- no, I mean, what else for than to try and persuade them? It's these little
things that -- it's just how you see the head of state.
AMANPOUR: All right. So, now let's go --
DIMBLEBY: If they're elected head of state, like Donald Trump, of course you can --
AMANPOUR: Well, that's different.
DIMBLEBY: No, that's not different. It's an elected head of state. And --
AMANPOUR: Yes, I agree with you, it's different.
DIMBLEBY: He can apparently do what he likes.
AMANPOUR: I agree with you, that's different, because he's elected.
DIMBLEBY: -- difficult -- different responsibility.
AMANPOUR: Yes. But I'm going to get back to, if I have time, to ask you about the soft power, because actually, Trump has -- you know, likes
Britain a lot because of the monarchy. But I will --
DIMBLEBY: Well, now he thinks we're in decay.
AMANPOUR: Yes, yes, but not the king, he doesn't think. Not the monarchy.
DIMBLEBY: The king's not -- well, that's fine. We're left with the king and we can all go back.
AMANPOUR: Now, look, Prince William, the son of the king, the Prince of Wales now, he has, you know, pursued his father's endeavors in the climate.
He has the Earth Shot Prize. I interviewed him on stage in Brazil this year for the Earth Shot Prize. And he advocates for climate action. Here's a bit
of his message.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PRINCE WILLIAM: Climate anxiety is a real thing. I hear about it wherever I go now. Lots of younger generations are saying, what kind of planet are
we going to inherit? And I think that message needs to go wider and louder, and the younger generations need to be heard more.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: OK. So, he has a very high popularity. I want to ask you, in 20 seconds, to answer to one question, I mean, he's doing what he's doing, and
it's good for the planet, because I need to get to the BBC question.
DIMBLEBY: I'm not saying it shouldn't be allowed. Of course, he can speak his mind. The question is -- and that's a big issue that everybody's on the
side about almost, but there are many issues where the views of the monarch should be disregarded, and we don't know whether they're disregarded or
not, and that's the problem.
AMANPOUR: OK. It's a really fascinating documentary series, but because you have been such a stalwart at the BBC, what is going on, this sort of
pile-on? You know, what do you think the BBC should do? I mean, it doesn't seem to be publicly defending itself. Many of us are. Many people who
believe in public broadcasting and can't bear the idea of a world without the World Service or BBC in all its films and drama and wildlife and
documentaries and Question Time and all that stuff, that it wouldn't exist as a public service.
What do you think? What do you think? Is it under serious threat? Can it revive itself?
DIMBLEBY: I believe it will, put it like that, because I believe, for all the things you've said, it's too valuable an institution. Whatever you
think of monarchy, the BBC is the other great institution in Britain and worldwide is really important. That it makes terrible mistakes, and idiotic
ones, including this one over the Trump, but joining two bits of film and then thinking it'll go away as a problem because nobody's raised it as a
problem, and, of course, things like that don't go away, and then you end up with this kind of terrific furor about it, and two people resign. Senior
people at the top of the BBC resign.
I'm not privy to what went on there and how it -- why that happened, but we have had trouble at the top of the BBC for a time. We've had trouble over
the choice of the chair. We've had trouble in our relationships with government.
The Labour government always used to be thought to be rather more favorable to the BBC than the Tory one because it's always thought to be very
slightly liberal, the BBC, rather like CNN is thought to be a bit on the liberal side.
AMANPOUR: We call ourselves neutral.
DIMBLEBY: And we call ourselves neutral. OK. Journalistic neutral. OK. Let's put it like that. But the one problem with the BBC is that people are
abandoning television in favor of all the other ways of getting information, but they're still compelled to pay 179, whatever it is, pounds
a year to have a license fee to watch television, and that's the stumbling block. And for me, if they can get that sorted, then the BBC will be OK. No
government's going to be so stupid.
I mean, Margaret Thatcher wanted to take the BBC to task and she was always told people would come out of the woodwork to defend it. If you don't do
it, Margaret, it's not worth it. And my view is that for any government, it's not worth it to destroy the BBC because it's too important to Britain,
maybe like the monarchy.
AMANPOUR: You almost ended the interview right there. You said, what's the monarchy for? Now, you're telling me it's too important to Britain. David
Dimbleby, it's a really great watch. And I wanted to ask you one other last question, and that's about the money. You -- and literally we have one
minute. So, you looked also into the finances and they're pretty non- transparent.
DIMBLEBY: Absolutely non-transparent. And the king is the first billionaire king we've ever had. Ask why, and you do a lot of work to
discover why, and it goes way back to profits made in the slave trade, for God's sake, and it goes on and on and on. And they're protected from all
kinds of taxes and they don't pay -- they pay tax voluntarily. And there are certain taxes they don't pay. So, they get richer and richer and
richer. And they don't pay inheritance tax, which everybody else does, you know, when one person dies and they (INAUDIBLE). So, their money just does
this.
And again, that I think is a serious issue in a country that if their money is doing that, the rest of the country's money is doing that. And I think
that's a dangerous point. Not a tipping point. We're not going to have a republic here. We're four countries. You try having a president who suits
all four countries. You know, you could wish for it, but I think it will happen for a long time.
AMANPOUR: All right. Well, it's an amazing watch and really good investigation. And David Dimbleby, thank you very much indeed.
DIMBLEBY: Thank you, Christine.
AMANPOUR: Always great to talk to you.
DIMBLEBY: Nice to see you.
AMANPOUR: And stay with us, because we'll be back after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:20:00]
AMANPOUR: Now, to one of the most anticipated books of the year, two decades in the making. "The Loneliness of Sonia and Sunny" is Kiran Desai's
long-awaited new novel. It's finally published 20 years after her previous book, "The Inheritance of Loss," which won her the Booker Prize.
The new novel is a thoughtful look at class, race, and what it means to love. Desai says that at times it felt so big she wasn't sure she could
even finish it. It's garnered huge critical acclaim in the brief time it's been out, and it's been shortlisted for this year's Booker Prize. When we
spoke, I asked Desai what it felt like to finally see the story in print.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Kiran Desai, welcome to our program.
KIRAN DESAI, AUTHOR, "THE LONELINESS OF SONIA AND SUNNY": Thank you so much.
AMANPOUR: It has been 20 years the world has waited for your next novel, and now it's upon us. It's huge, it's epic, not just between the, you know,
the covers, but in the generations that it spans. So, you've said you wanted to write an Indian love story in the modern age. So, tell us.
DESAI: So, I wanted to write a story about how modernity affects us in the very elemental matters of love and loneliness. And I had the idea of
writing a sort of modern-day globalized love story, but with an old- fashioned immersive beauty. That was what I wanted to do.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, it's about Sunny and Sonia and the struggle, as you say, with individuality of the West compared to the, you know, the constant
company that you feel in the global South. And we do see this playing out in many passages, including the one we have asked you to read, because this
is between Sonia's dad and her grandfather. Can you read that passage for us?
DESAI: Yes. We are worried about Sonia, Manavan (ph) said. Sonia attended college in Vermont. She's fallen into a depression. She weeps on the
telephone. And then when we call her back a day later, the same. But why, asked Dadaji (ph). She's been there three years already. Why is she
suddenly crying? She says she's lonely.
The last time Sonia had traveled home was two years ago. Lonely? Lonely? In Allahabad, they had no patience with loneliness. They might have felt the
loneliness of being misunderstood. They might know the sucked dead feeling of Allahabad afternoons, a tide drawn out, perhaps never to return, which
is a kind of loneliness. But they had never slept in a house alone. Never eaten a meal alone. Never lived in a place where they were unknown.
AMANPOUR: Well, it just says it all. So -- and loneliness, obviously, is in the title. Why did you decide to focus on that particular aspect? And of
course, you're talking about the diaspora. You're also a member of the diaspora. You're not in your community in India.
DESAI: Well, once I thought of writing this story about love and loneliness, and I was thinking in an Indian love story in the past, in the
time of my grandparents and perhaps also my parents, it would have been centered in one community, one religion, possibly also one place, you know,
one race, one religion, one community. But setting it out into the big world, you know, it could wander in so many different directions. It could
take so many different forms. And it seems a matter of chance who one might meet when and where.
[13:25:00]
But once I did this, I realized that as Sonia and Sunny go through many countries in Italy, in Mexico, in the United States, in India, and I
realized that I could actually expand the idea of loneliness and talk about it, talk about the fissures of our modern world and all the divides between
nations, the rage between nations, the distrust between races, between genders, class divides that seem to grow ever bigger, all as a kind of
loneliness.
AMANPOUR: I'm going to pick up on one of those things you just said, and that's race, because Sunny, the male title here, particularly he questions
his place as an immigrant in the United States in your novel. He feels that it's a place obsessed with race and skin color. And I want to read from
your book. And when was it that Sunny had learned the United States was about only one thing? In the morning, when he turned on public radio it
began, race, race, race. When he folded the newspaper, race, race, race. The economy, the environment, the journalism, the Starbucks restroom, the
seat on the plane, the conversation came down in a hammer blow, race.
Talk about the race that you're writing about that Sunny's experiencing writing this book. You've got it happening on the ground in the United
States with all the crackdown on immigrant populations.
DESAI: Absolutely. It's so fascinating. And I think, you know, immigrants come from very complex pasts, often fleeing difficult situations. And then
they realize when they come to the United States, thinking of it as a fresh new country, that it is also a country with an enormous burden of history.
And this is something that I realized when I arrived in the United States. And it was exactly as Sunny describes it, race, race, race. Which is, of
course, not something you think about in India. In India, you think about caste.
AMANPOUR: So, I want to ask you about something else, because we hear this more and more as a criticism. At the beginning of the novel, Sonia shows
her, at that time, artist boyfriend, a novel that she's working on. And he tells her that it's too cliche, too orientalist. Stop writing about
arranged marriages. Sonia goes on to change what she's -- you know, the sort of some of the descriptions she has for Western audiences. Is that a
big pressure, do you think? Is that even valid?
DESAI: Oh, it's absolutely valid. I think there's an enormous anxiety about how India is written about perhaps how non-Western countries are
written about in the Western world, which is the big publishing world. And I think that this is an old anxiety. And it tends to rise if your country
has been historically underrepresented on the world stage.
And if that representation is seen as crucial, and if the mistakes of the past have been too costly to repeat, then people are very, you know, aware
of how India is being portrayed overseas, extremely worried that a certain kind of India is being sold to a Western audience and that a more
authentic, real India is not being.
So, I think as a writer from this part of the world, you have to be conscious of it. You are always conscious of it.
AMANPOUR: Except that one of the arguments is that you -- you know, not you, but generally, you know, some stories focus on arranged marriages.
That's not -- you know, that's not unusual. It's actually really common in India, right? So, it's sort of a difficult struggle. Yes.
DESAI: Most marriages are arranged. And so, the question becomes exotic to whom, you know? And yet, there is that worry that white people are being
beguiled by, you know, exotic seasons such as the monsoon and by peacocks, you know, obliterating clouds of spices and a kind of cheap bazaar version,
sort of decorative outside, hollow inside. That is just, you know, demeaning the soul of the country. And that is what is being sold in a kind
of oriental bazaar, which is actually a valid argument, by the way. I mean, all of these arguments, the thing is are valid. So, it was important for me
to put them all in the book.
There's also, you know, a question of who has the power to tell these stories overseas and a real anxiety like that writers like myself, you
know, who are very westernized and are speaking English, a language that is sometimes accused of, you know, of not being able to capture India at all.
The form of a novel, which is a western form, which came to India along with the British. So, all of these questions about storytelling are, of
course, in my mind.
[13:30:00]
AMANPOUR: That is so interesting. I want to go back a little bit also to the present, but your mother, Anita Desai, also is an exceptional writer.
She has been nominated for the Booker three times. You won it, the Booker, for your previous novel in 2006. She's the only person I understand who you
show your early work to. Describe that relationship and what she makes of the fact that you won the prize that she hasn't yet.
DESAI: Well, it's a bit ridiculous. You know, we've both been nominated now, I think five times, mother and daughter.
AMANPOUR: Amazing.
DESAI: You know, she has a very fascinating background with a German mother and a father who came from what is now Bangladesh. So, she had an
extraordinary bookshelf. She grew up with an extraordinary bookshelf from both a European and an Indian combination of those two things, those two
ideas of writing and storytelling. And I inherited that bookshelf, and it has been so important to me in my writing life.
So, she does read my work, but she reads it, I think she knows the landscapes I'm writing from more than anyone. So, she can intuit what I'm
trying to say. Sometimes we write from the same landscape. The same veranda is in my novel and in her novel. We often go on writing holidays together.
AMANPOUR: That's a nice connection. She also, let it not be, you know, forgotten, helped to pave the way for a generation of great Indian writers
like yourself, but also Salman Rushdie, Arundhati Roy, Vikram Seth. And in one of -- in your book, one of Sunny's colleagues at the AP says to him, in
India, stories grow on trees. What is it about India that makes it such a fascinating place to tell these stories about?
DESAI: You know what I think it is? I think it's the extraordinary diversity of India. And the fact that you, this is something that I'm
really worried is changing. You know, India as a country with so many languages and people of so many different faiths. And you have all of these
different philosophies to draw on as a writer. It's such an exuberant writing territory. People who may be Buddhist, Jain, Hindu, Muslim,
Christian, Sikh.
And this -- how you could argue that, that's why the United States is also a very vibrant literary culture. But you could write about people very
different from yourself with intimacy, knowledge and affection. And that is something that is, I think, I worry that is changing in India with the rise
of nationalism. And so, I always think that what we are fighting for is not only a secular democracy, not only human rights, but also a literary
landscape, which has been so precious to me.
AMANPOUR: All right. So, veering into the politics, you talk about the rise of nationalism, Hindu nationalism. In the book. one of the characters
is fired for having moral statues in his office. And there are a series of dinner parties discussing the topic and the, you know, the frictions
emerging between friends. So, that also -- that politics populates this novel.
DESAI: It does, and I don't think you can leave that out, you know, of -- I don't know how writers write, leaving the politics out of the novel.
Although I think it absolutely has to be, you know, politics for the sake of art, not the other way around. I was very conscious of that, how these
events, even for characters who are not directly experiencing the violence, how it changes absolutely everything about their lives. And I was very
curious about following -- I wanted to follow those undercurrents of history, you know, the feeling of the dread of knowing that there is a
darker undercurrent of history that you never know when it's going to come bursting out and who the violence will ensnare.
And that is something I was very conscious of growing up in India. You know, I lived as a child when the Hindu Sikh riots happened. And that's
something that is reverberating today.
AMANPOUR: Can I just ask you, do you feel that authors living in India today can write freely, you know, without fear of crackdowns or censorship?
[13:35:00]
DESAI: You know, Christiane, what I've noticed is that once fear is injected into a society, that's really the beginning of the end. And I have
seen that fear just to an extraordinary degree in India. And I would say that, no, people are very, very, very scared and very worried.
AMANPOUR: And yet, in New York City, we have -- you know, you have a member of the Indian diaspora himself, Zohran Mamdani, who has been elected
mayor against all expectations and quite a lot of pressure from much more establishment candidates to make sure he didn't get elected, but he is. And
there's been a huge amount of joy, not just amongst the Indian diaspora, but amongst many, many people in New York and around the world. So, it --
DESAI: He's my neighbor.
AMANPOUR: Yes, well, there you go.
DESAI: In fact.
AMANPOUR: OK. Great.
DESAI: Because I live in Jackson Heights in Queens and he's in Astoria.
AMANPOUR: OK. Well, he's your mayor then. So, it happened just weeks after your book was published. How did it make you feel?
DESAI: You know, I was talking about fear in the Indian context, but that's, of course, also happening in the United States now. And when I walk
out into my neighborhood of Jackson Heights, I sense that fear, the same fear. And it has changed. The landscape has changed drastically in the last
six months or so. And what was a very vibrant immigrant scene is now suddenly some of the streets are quite silent. So, that is something I'm
very conscious of.
And I am thrilled about Zohran Mamdani winning the election. Very happy about it. Let's see. It's definitely the -- when I returned this last time
for a trip, I think the air was just -- it felt -- the air smelled sweeter.
AMANPOUR: Well, it's really interesting to hear you say that. But I want to ask you finally, you know, you famously devote, and you've spoken about
it, devoted the last 20 years to your book at the expense of quite a lot of other things you could have been doing. You haven't got married. You don't
have children. You pretty, you know, live a very solitary and writerly life. I'm sure you have a massive social circle and lots of friends and
community. But tell me, A, what that's like to devote 20 years to this project. And now, that it's done, how do you feel?
DESAI: I didn't notice the years passing. And I was -- you know, I think I was creating material. I wasn't thinking so much even in terms of a book.
Writing was just how I was living my life. And I think of writing as a kind of spiritual discipline. I wake up in the morning. I go straight to my
desk. Everything I do through the day is so that I can write and that I will be able to put all my energy into my work. And I have to say, it feels
like an extraordinary privilege to have been able to work like that.
AMANPOUR: And how do you feel now that that baby, that project, that work is out in the open and not really yours to work on anymore?
DESAI: Well, life feels very thin on the other side of this novel, I have to say. And I just can, I feel my brain is just squirreling away trying to
find a new project to work on.
AMANPOUR: Oh, I was going to ask you, there won't be another 20-year gap? You're going to write another novel?
DESAI: Well, you know, 20 years is -- I have -- I realized that I have to learn how to write shorter novels because if I wait another 20 years, I
would be 74.
AMANPOUR: It's not bad, you know, people still write at 74. Anyway, look, I am going to leave those readers who haven't read the book to find out
what happens to Sunny and Sonia. But it's got such great critical acclaim and we're really happy to have had you on. Thank you so much, Kiran Desai.
DESAI: Thank you so much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Such a lovely conversation. We'll be right back after this short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:40:00]
AMANPOUR: Now, Minnesota's Somali community is the latest focus of Donald Trump's wrath and war on immigrants. At a rally last night, the president
let loose, openly using an epithet he had previously denied using in 2018.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Why is it we only take people from -- countries, right? Why can't we have some people from Norway, Sweden, just a few, let us have a few.
From Denmark, do you mind sending us a few people? Send us some nice people, do you mind? But we always take people from Somalia, places that
are a disaster, right? Filthy, dirty, disgusting, ridden with crime. The only thing they're good at is going after ships.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, this has been described by some as a xenophobic tirade, and it comes amid a crackdown by ICE agents in Minnesota this week, which is
home to the largest Somali community in the United States. Democratic State Senator Zaynab Mohamed herself immigrated to the U.S. as a child, and she's
joining Hari Sreenivasan.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HARI SREENIVASAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Christiane, thanks. State Senator Zaynab Mohamed, thanks so much for joining us.
You are a state senator, you're representing all Minnesotans, but you're also representing from a state that has about 80,000 Somalis. And recently,
President Trump, during a news conference, said, quote, "I don't want them in our country. We could go one way or the other, and we're going to go the
wrong way if we keep taking in garbage into our country."
As not just a state senator and representative, but as a Somali immigrant, what was your reaction to this when you heard this?
STATE SEN. ZAYNAB MOHAMED (D-MN): I was sad, incredibly sad, but I wasn't shocked coming from what's been happening the last 11 years and seeing the
president target our community over the course of his administration. I wasn't shocked, I was really deeply disturbed by it, and sad for my
community, for them to deal with the most powerful person in the world to call them garbage.
SREENIVASAN: You know, there's also, at the same time, been a program conducted by the Immigration and Customs Enforcement called Metro Surge.
The White House boarders are Tom Holan recently, he said, we also know that there's a large illegal Somali community here, and that there's a large
illegal alien community there. We're going to arrest every illegal alien that we find there.
Can you just help us put in perspective what the percentage numbers of undocumented Somalis are in Minnesota?
MOHAMED: Yes, it's not many. The majority of Somalis in Minnesota are United States citizens or they're naturalized citizens. They're born here,
they're either naturalized citizens, often first, second, or even third generation Americans. We don't have many folks who are undocumented.
We have about 700 people across the country who are on temporary status, temporary protected status, TPS, which is, they are legal residents, but we
don't have many numbers in terms of undocumented communities, folks in Minnesota, when it comes to that.
SREENIVASAN: So, even in the entire population of Somalis in the country, if there are only about 700, and let's say there's about 400 of those TPS
recipients in Minnesota, the president said recently on his social media platform that he was terminating effective immediately the temporary
protected status of TPS program for Somalis in Minnesota. I mean, do you think that the administration is going to be successful in this?
MOHAMED: I think they will try. But what's clear is they are not going to be successful because what they think is there are large numbers of Somalis
who are undocumented or majority of our community is on TPS, which is not the case. And that's what they're seeing here on the ground is that these
folks are citizens. They're born here. They're naturalized.
You know, let's say all of them live in Minnesota. 700 out of 80,000 is not that many people. And these are folks who are fleeing war and famine, some
of the worst conditions to come to America for safety. And we've granted them that. And he's taken that away. And I think it speaks to his
leadership and the fact that it's been detrimental to the American citizens.
SREENIVASAN: Can you tell us about the scale of the operation that you and members of your community have witnessed here?
[13:45:00]
MOHAMED: ICE agents came here in the hundreds last Monday. It's been exactly a week. What we know is that so far, they've only detained 19
people. Out of that, only five are Somalis. But they are everywhere in our communities. And they're not just targeting undocumented communities,
that's what's really important to know here is that they are targeting United States citizens. They have detained people who were born here.
And so, what they're doing is they're going up to people. As long as you look like me or you look like an immigrant, they're questioning you.
They're stopping you. And so, we're teaching people to carry their passport IDs. And I think that's something important to know. Because what they
wanted was to see large numbers of undocumented Somalis in Minnesota. Turns out there isn't. And so, now they're just harassing and being aggressive
towards the community.
SREENIVASAN: You know, there was a local news report. I think it's on Fox 9 of a Somali woman who is a U.S. citizen who was arrested by ICE agents
while running an errand. Can you tell us a little bit more about her case?
MOHAMED: Yes. So, what we know is she was running errands. She's actually born in Edina, Minnesota, raised here, has been here her entire life. She
was running errands on a regular day. Two cars with ICE agents pulled up, zip-tied her. They detained her for 24 hours. And in that process, she told
her story to the news that she was sexually assaulted, her family speaking up.
And so, what they're doing is not operating under the law. They are not here to enforce immigration laws. They are here to be disrespectful to the
community, to antagonize them and to create fear. And they're certainly doing that.
SREENIVASAN: We should note that in this case, DHS told Fox 9 in Minneapolis that it could not comment on the incident without further
information. So, when you see stories like this on the news or from members of your community, what does that do to the overall kind of, I guess,
atmosphere of how the community feels?
MOHAMED: Yes, I mean, just across the state, it doesn't feel normal, because in a normal government, local mayors and law enforcement would know
what ICE is doing, why they're there, who they're targeting, for what reason they're arresting people. That is not happening. They are coming
here in a hostile invading to try to invade the State of Minnesota. And I think it is really scary.
What it is creating for us as like Minnesotans, it is making it clear that these folks are not here to enforce our immigration laws, that these folks
are here to scare us, to create us versus them mentality. And so, people are uniting, and they are protecting their neighbors who are citizens who
just happen to be immigrants or from immigration background.
SREENIVASAN: What is your advice when Somali members of your community call you?
MOHAMED: Well, I tell them, make sure you carry your passport ID and your passport card, because they are not targeting just people, individuals who
are undocumented. They are targeting all of us. I carry my passport ID. I tell my mother to do so. And I -- the calls I get that I'm most afraid for
are the mothers who don't speak English well or don't speak it at all, who still have to go to work. Those are the people that worry me the most in
terms of interacting with the folks who are trying to invade our state.
SREENIVASAN: You know, this right now has been focused in on the Twin Cities, but Somalis have similarly, just like they left from the downtown
to the suburbs, they've also left to exurban and rural areas to work on farms and be parts of small towns. Are you hearing anything from there?
MOHAMED: Thank you for pointing that out. We're not just in the Twin Cities, we're not just in the suburbs, we're also in small towns. People in
greater Minnesota, whether in Willmar or Moorhead or central Minnesota, are also vigilant. They are well aware of what's happening in the Twin Cities.
Some people in central Minnesota, in St. Cloud, Minnesota, which is a small town in central Minnesota, have seen ICE agents show up. And so, it's not
just a target in the Twin Cities or in the metro. They are targeting people across the State of Minnesota.
Our people have been here for, at this point, first, second, or third generations. They know their neighbors. They are not just people who are
entrepreneurs. They are farmers and doctors and lawyers. And so, their neighbors know that, and they're protecting them, and they're stepping up.
And I think for Minnesotans, it is showing us what it means to be a good neighbor.
And so, I think what the president has done, he's created this community to be so much better than what we even thought it would be.
SREENIVASAN: So, what has been the response of leadership throughout the state? I know in the city, the mayor, Jacob Frey, had signed a recent
executive order that barred ICE from using any city-owned spaces like parking lots for staging areas. What about the rest of the city and the
state?
MOHAMED: Well, people are stepping up. Our governor has stepped up and has made it very clear that they are here to invade our state, that they are
being hostile towards citizens. Most of our jurisdictions are not complying because they are not even telling them, they're not even interested in
complying with them.
[13:50:00]
And I mentioned this earlier, in a normal government, when ICE agents are in town, they talk to local law enforcement and the mayors, and they let
them know who they're arresting and why. And that is not happening. They're showing up in the middle of a Monday with just a press announcement without
any heads up to the local government.
And so, it's been -- for our leaders, they are stepping up. They are also helping people understand what their rights are. A number of organizations
across the state are also doing trainings for people so that they know what to do if ICE agents do interact with them.
SREENIVASAN: You know, there was a long-running civil war in Somalia that led to the emigration and fleeing of so many people from that country to
all over the world, including the United States. What would Somalis be returning to if they were deported or if they had this temporary protection
status of the 700 or so in the country revoked?
MOHAMED: Yes. I mean, the country is still going through an unrest and civil war. There is famine also happening. We know that people are still
living in refugee camps. And so, for people who live here, like myself, who've been here since I was eight years old, to go back to a home I
haven't known since I was a child just seems antithetical to the beliefs of Americans. These people are Americans. They've been here for a number of
generations. They're not going anywhere. And so, that's sort of what we've been telling people, because we're not going to send Americans to countries
that they've never been to.
SREENIVASAN: Your family story is somewhat emblematic of so many different Somalis who have immigrated here. Why did they come? And what's your
family's contribution been like over the generations?
MOHAMED: Yes, my family is the epitome of the American dream and why so many people in my community immigrate here. We came here when I was eight
years old. My family was obviously wanting to lead the war. And Americans have taken us in. Minnesotans have taken us in. And in return, every single
one of my siblings has graduated college, is contributing in their own way.
We've got nurses and people who work in different industries. You have people like me who ran for office when I was 24 years old, became the
youngest member and one of the first three black women, because it's important to me not just as a Somali woman, but just simply as an American,
that I give back to the people who've had my back, who've given me home. And this is my home.
SREENIVASAN: I wonder, in some of the remarks that the president has made, he's also targeted Ilhan Omar, who you know very well, is his
representative in Congress. And she's been the target of his attacks. Are you seeing an increase in any sorts of threats or political violence
against you?
MOHAMED: Absolutely. Anytime the president spews what he did, as he did last week, and caused the entire community garbage and paints a brush over
us, attacks against our leaders like myself increase. We've been getting death threats. People are afraid to go to their stores or even if they live
in parts where there aren't a lot of people who look like us. They're being more vigilant. They don't know what it incites.
We also lived through June 14th in Minnesota, where my leader, Speaker Hortman, Minnesota House -- Minnesota Leader of the House Melissa Hortman
and her husband were assassinated. And my colleague, John Hoffman, and his wife had an attempted assassination on them. And I was on that list.
And so, I'm afraid for my community. I'm afraid for myself. But we have no choice but to step up and speak up against the rhetoric and say we deserve
to live in a country that is safe, where our leaders don't incite violence against us, because that's exactly what's happening. And, you know, I would
have hoped that June 14th was a lesson to our leaders, both sides of the aisle, but it seems not to be.
SREENIVASAN: You know, one of the things that the president has keyed in on, and several conservatives in the state as well have keyed in on, is a
series of fraud cases that have been discovered and investigated and prosecuted over the last few years, where there have been different state
programs that have been taken advantage of. And a number of Somalis have been indicted and charged with these crimes.
And I guess, you know, your reaction to the president's comments on the case, I mean, he says Somalians ripped off the State of Minnesota for
billions of dollars, every year, billions of dollars, and they contribute nothing.
MOHAMED: Well, first of all, the contributions of the community speak for themselves, right? In terms of the fraud, fraud hurts everyone. Fraud hurts
Somali taxpayers and Somali people who are supposed to be getting these -- receiving these services.
What is important is we don't do this to other communities. This year, there was a group of people who were linked to a Russian gang who stole $10
billion, who schemed over $10 billion in fraud. We don't say, is that indicative of the entire Russian community, because it's not.
[13:55:00]
And these are individuals who are not a representative of our entire community. They are 78 people. They are criminals. And that is how we
should be speaking of them. We should not be saying that this is an indicative of the entire community. That is where the rhetoric starts and
where it creates political violence for people who look like myself.
SREENIVASAN: Minnesota State Senator Zaynab Mohamed, thanks so much for your time.
MOHAMED: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Troubling times. That is it for now. If you ever miss our show, remember you can always catch us online and on our website and all-over
social media. Thanks for watching, and goodbye from London.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
