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Amanpour
Interview with The Ark Centre Rabbi Gabi Kaltmann; Interview with British Conservative MP Alicia Kearns; Interview with "In No Other Choice" Director Park Chan-wook; Interview with Senator Andy Kim (D-NJ). Aired 1-2p ET
Aired December 15, 2025 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTHONY ALBANESE, AUSTRALIAN PRIME MINISTER: What we saw yesterday was an act of pure evil, an act of terror, an act of anti-Semitism.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Over a dozen killed in a shooting attack targeting Hanukkah celebrations at Sydney's Bondi Beach. Prominent Melbourne rabbi Gabi
Kaltmann shares the shock and grief of Australia's Jewish community.
Then, former media tycoon Jimmy Lai falls victim to Hong Kong's sweeping security law. As Britain condemns what it calls a politically motivated
prosecution, I speak with conservative MP Alicia Kearns.
And --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): Deep breaths.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- a new movie that will make you laugh until it hurts. "In No Other Choice," director Park Chan-wook finds dark comedy in economic angst.
Also --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ANDY KIM (D-NJ): I think it's important that we lift these voices up in order to demand help and support for so many Americans that are
desperately struggling right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- New Jersey Senator Andy Kim talks to Hari Sreenivasan about his own family's struggle with Alzheimer's disease.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
In Australia, a sense of safety and security tragically shattered as the tight-knit Jewish community reels in the aftermath of a mass shooting
targeting a Hanukkah celebration on Sydney's Bondi Beach. More than a dozen people were killed, including a Holocaust survivor, a 10-year-old girl, and
the rabbi who organized the Hanukkah by the Sea event.
The suspects are identified as a father and son duo. The 50-year-old shot and killed by the police at the scene and his 24-year-old son now likely to
face charges. Australia's Jewish leaders have been warning Prime Minister Anthony Albanese and his government about rising antisemitism for several
years now.
And as the Hanukkah holiday continues with its celebration of light and resistance, I spoke earlier with Rabbi Gabi Kaltmann from Melbourne.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Rabbi Gabi, thank you so much for taking the time. I am so sorry that these are the circumstances under which we are speaking. I know
the community, especially the Jewish community in Australia is heartbroken. It is a very small community, about 0.5 percent of the population, some
100,000 people. It's a very tight-knit community as well.
And you were in Melbourne, obviously. This horrific attack happened in Sydney, but I do know that you know many of the victims as well. Just talk
to us about how the community is doing right now and how the victims that are still hospitalized are doing.
GABI KALTMANN, RABBI, THE ARK CENTRE: Well, the community here in Australia, the Jewish community at least, is heartbroken. We're shattered.
We're in the middle of just an unimaginable nightmare situation. None of us could believe that something like this could happen on the sun-kissed
shores of Australia in such an idyllic, beautiful, iconic place, Bondi Beach.
I knew a number of the victims. One of them is my good friend's father-in- law. Another one was a mentoring student when I was in high school. He was one of the elder students there, mentoring younger ones. Another one was a
rabbi who I just spoke to a couple of weeks ago. There is so much overlap and interconnection between the two communities.
[13:05:00]
We know what's going on with the schools over there, with the different shuls, synagogues. There's a lot of intermarriage between Melbourne and
Sydney in the sense of, you know, Jewish community members marrying into each other's families. It's just something that's unimaginable,
unfathomable.
And I understand that there are those still in hospital in need of a speedy recovery. They're going in and out of being operated on. And we wish them
all the blessings for a speedy and quick recovery.
GOLODRYGA: We all do wish for a speedy recovery for those victims. And tragically, we know there were 15 who were murdered, including two rabbis,
Holocaust survivors, a 10-year-old girl. It is unimaginable. And may all of their memories be a blessing. This also happened on the first night of
Hanukkah. And you've said, we cannot cower, we must increase light.
And that's very similar to what the rabbi at my synagogue, where I grew up in Houston, Texas, also was quoted as saying, "We are commanded to bring
light to darkness. And the time when Jews feel most scared to do so is a time like now."
For people watching who may struggle to understand how public worship is possible in such a trauma, what does that choice mean spiritually for you?
And what are you telling your congregants?
KALTMANN: That ultimately is the message of Hanukkah. Each night of the festival, we light one candle on the first night and progressively get to
the climax and the culmination of lighting the entire candelabra, the entire menorah, all eight candles. And the point is to dispel the darkness,
to push it away, to recognize and acknowledge that there is evil, there is darkness in the world, but ultimately light, love overcomes the bad, the
evil, the darkness.
I'm telling my congregation, my community, that we must summon the strength and the character of the heroes of the story of Hanukkah, the Maccabees,
and be like Judah Maccabee, and find solace in our history that we're celebrating right now, and like we've done for the past 2,000 years. It
ultimately is not easy, but tonight, as I lit the menorah with my family, that's exactly what we did. And we took a moment together with my children
to remember those that have just passed, to pray for those that are injured, but ultimately to push away that darkness.
You know, us Jews, tragically, we've been here before. This is, in essence, the story of being a Jew. And each time we've persevered, we've gotten up,
we've shaken ourselves off, and we've continued on with love and with hope, holding steadfast to our Torah, our traditions, our faith, and our beliefs.
And that's what we will continue to do. That's the story, ultimately, of the Jewish people.
GOLODRYGA: And yet, it's understandable why Jews may be nervous, fearful about continuing to gather publicly and to continue to celebrate and
observe their faith. This horrific attack happened as there had already been security concern among Australian Jews, that especially over the last
few years, as we've seen a rise in anti-Semitism following the October 7th attacks in Israel, that the Jewish community in Australia didn't feel that
the government was doing enough to protect them and address some of their concerns. There have been attacks on Jewish businesses, on synagogues as
well.
And Alex Ryvchin, who is the co-CEO of the Executive Council of Australian Jewry, said this to my colleague over the weekend following this shooting
attack. He said, the government has never understood exactly what we're dealing with here. They've never understood the menace of anti-Semitism,
the psychosis that it can take hold over in societies and the obsession that people have with the hatred of Jewish people. It's not an ordinary
form of racism. And I think our elected leaders never fully grasped that. And they viewed supporting the Jewish community as coming with a political
price.
Do you agree with that perception among Australians? And what, if anything, can be done to rectify those concerns among the elected officials in
Australia to make Jews feel safer?
[13:10:00]
KALTMANN: I think leaders need to take heed and listen to what Jewish community leaders and members are saying. And that when Jews tell elected
members that they feel unsafe, they feel insecure, something doesn't feel right, and schools are targeted, places of worship to fire bombed, and
people don't feel safe wearing their kippah or their Star of David necklaces or being in Jewish uniform on the street, then ultimately, we
have a big problem. And to bat it away and to call it hysteria or hyperbole or just ultimately ignore it is something that now we are dealing with the
repercussions.
For two years, anyone listening, we have been telling them that something's not right. And the evidence was in front of our eyes when synagogues are
being fire bombed. That's not normal. So, many of us have heritage of people coming to the shores of Australia in search of a better life.
Holocaust surviving parents and grandparents here in Melbourne and Sydney, so many of us are descendants of those incredible people that survived
concentration camps and the pogroms and the antisemitism of Europe.
So, many of us have fled from countries where this sort of thing happens. And we've come to Australia in search of a better life, a life of decency,
a life where we can practice our tradition, our faith freely, without fear of persecution, without fear of being gunned down at a Hanukkah event on
one of the world's most famous beaches, coming here to contribute to a society and to ultimately live harmoniously with our neighbors.
And over the past two years, that sense of safety has shattered. And now, tragically, we have people that are waking up as orphans, wives without
husbands, and families really hurt and destroyed, sadly, because of what's happened over the weekend here on Bondi Beach.
GOLODRYGA: I'm just wondering if we can end on perhaps a note of hope and optimism when there's so much darkness and despair. We know that there was
heroism as well over the weekend, and a bystander, Ahmed, who happened to watch all of this unfold and took a moment to risk his own life to stop and
attack one of these two shooters. And most experts say likely prevented an even larger death toll.
I'm just wondering when you see that act of heroism by somebody who's not a police officer, I believe he's had no experience, he said he's never held a
gun before. What went through your mind when you saw that?
KALTMANN: Australian, that is the epitome of being an Aussie, of standing up and trying to do what you can to assist, to be there for somebody. And
in this case, this individual, this heroic individual, he put his life on the line, and thank God he survived. And he, I'm sure, assisted in saving
countless lives. And so, did my good friend's father-in-law.
He stood in front of the gunman, and he shot him multiple times and missed. Eventually, tragically, he was gunned down. But for those few moments, he
saved and allowed other people to get away while taking the attention of the gunman onto himself. And sadly, tragically, paid for it with his life.
And ultimately, now it's Hanukkah. We've still got, here in Australia, we've just started the second night. That's what we're going to do. We're
going to come together as a community. We're going to absorb and take in the light of the menorah. We're going to bring it into our lives.
So, many of our community members and neighbors just part of the wider Australian community have reached out. Synagogues are inundated with
flowers and messages of hope and support. This evening, we got together in the heart of the CBD, Federation Square here in Melbourne. Thousands of
people came together to light the menorah and a vigil. We have that support from the community
[13:15:00]
But ultimately, now is the time where Australians say enough is enough. We need to put an end to this horrific antisemitism. And it's going to happen.
Believe you me, it's going to happen. We feel it now. But sadly, and tragically, we had to go through this to be in this situation of people
coming together and saying, wow, this is not the Australian way of life. This is not how we act here.
GOLODRYGA: Rabbi Gabi, I want to once again express my condolences for the horrific loss to the Jewish community, to humanity over the weekend. And
thank you for continuing to hold the community together and continuing to shine a light. Thank you.
KALTMANN: Thank you. God bless.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: And we'll be right back after a break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: Now, in Hong Kong, one of the city's best-known personalities is facing possible life in prison. Media tycoon Jimmy Lai was found guilty
on two national security charges and one count of sedition. Lai, whose newspaper, Apple Daily, supported pro-democracy protests, has become a
symbol of Hong Kong's shrinking freedoms under Beijing's rule.
For many British lawmakers, the fate of Jimmy Lai is of particular concern. Alicia Kearns is a conservative member of parliament and a former chair of
the Foreign Affairs Select Committee. And she joins us now live.
Alicia, thank you so much for taking the time. So, the judge in this case, in his ruling, said there is no doubt that Lai, quote, "had harbored his
resentment and hatred of China for many of his adult years." The Hong Kong chief executive, John Lee, said that Lai's actions were shameful and his
intentions malicious.
This is an 800-page verdict, the most closely watched national security trial since Hong Kong's crackdown began. What stood out to you the most
from both the trial and now, obviously, this ruling?
ALICIA KEARNS, BRITISH CONSERVATIVE MP: Well, today is a dark day for anyone who cares about democracy, rule of law, and, of course, freedom of
speech. And the reality is that this verdict is a sign of just how scared the Chinese Communist Party is of voices, human rights defenders like Jimmy
Lai's. And they are trying to silence him.
But what was extraordinary was this so-called 800-page document, it was so thin. So, arguments that he'd had conversations with British
parliamentarians, who, in fact, had never met him. Arguments that perhaps there was a research group being set up in the U.K. about China and that he
knew about it. This was sometimes some form of sedition.
But what I think is really interesting is that this is a British citizen being prosecuted for a crime that did not exist at the time he supposedly
committed it under a law that has been now designed to punish him and to punish anyone who cares about the freedom of Hong Kongers.
GOLODRYGA: And you're right to note that Jimmy Lai is a British citizen. The U.K. is calling for his immediate release. And prime minister, though,
Starmer is prepared to visit China, saying Britain, quote, "cannot shy away from engagement with the country."
[13:20:00]
Do you agree with his decision to continue to visit China and meet with President Xi? And should this verdict change anything or should it present
the prime minister with an agenda to focus on the number of issues, but this being one of them?
KEARNS: It would be unconscionable for Keir Starmer to travel to China for some red carpet propaganda event for the Chinese Communist Party when they
are holding a British national, they have convicted him of a fraudulent sham trial case and ultimately, he's been held for over 1,800 days in
solitary confinement. They have blocked out the light to his room so that his fingernails are falling out, he's getting a heart condition and he has
lost 10 kilograms. They are torturing a British national.
It must be a prerequisite of the prime minister, if he plans to go to China, that Jimmy Lai will be released before or during the visit. It was
already to me unacceptable that they have restarted the trade talks called JETCO that we suspended as conservatives in 2019 because of abuses of human
rights in Hong Kong.
But the idea that Keir Starmer would go there now and say well we need warm relations, absolutely not. Jimmy Lai must be released on compassionate
grounds or whatever it is the Chinese Communist Party needs to use for them to be able to release him. But Keir Starmer cannot go unless Jimmy Lai is
released before or during that visit.
GOLODRYGA: We should note that Hong Kong officials say that Jimmy Lai is receiving adequate and comprehensive medical care. But as you note that his
health is deteriorating, his family seems to be corroborating that as well. His daughter has written a piece in the Washington Post. She said her
father's health is rapidly deteriorating, that he has diabetes, hypertension, hearing and vision is failing, that he's suffered from a
number of infections and has lost an amount of weight.
As you talk about any leverage that the United Kingdom, that Prime Minister Starmer may have over Xi, one person without doubt has even more and that
is President Trump. And before the 2024 election, President Trump, then- candidate Trump said in a podcast during an interview, he said that he would, quote, "100 percent get Jimmy Lai out" and reportedly he said he
raised the case with President Xi.
Can you talk about with an upcoming summit perhaps just in a matter of months, in the spring of next year between President Trump and President
Xi, what you would advise President Trump to do as it relates to this matter?
KEARNS: Look, Jimmy Lai may not have that long and we know that this crime they've invented so that they can prosecute him and others will also
fortunately can carry a life sentence. But it doesn't matter whether they give him seven years, 15 years or life, he will die in prison if they do
not get him out. I call on President Trump to stand true to his word and get Jimmy out. But that cannot wait until later in the spring. Jimmy needs
to be released now.
So, Donald Trump, President Trump should work with Keir Starmer to make very clear to the Chinese Communist Party that unless Jimmy is not released
as soon as possible, there will be repercussions, whether that be Magnitsky sanctions on the judges or more serious repercussions of Chinese Communist
Party.
Look, we look to our allies. We want to work with our allies on this. The G7's voices are really important. But Donald Trump made a commitment and I
hope now he will follow through on it and get Jimmy home.
GOLODRYGA: Jimmy Lai's daughter has also said in pleading for his release that if he dies in prison that he will die a martyr and then suggesting
that this would be an even bigger blow for the public image of China. Do you think that this is a situation, a possibility that they are actually
weighing?
KEARNS: Look, there is no question that Jimmy Lai's health is so extreme that if he is left in prison much longer, he will die because he is not
getting the health that the Chinese Communist Party claims he's getting.
In fact, their torture of him, because that is what solitary confinement is, is so extreme that, as I said, they've blocked out the light, but
they're also refusing to allow him communion because he's a practicing Catholic. His faith means a great deal to him. They are doing everything
they can to break him mentally and physically.
So, yes, there is no question that Jimmy Lai is a hero currently to the people of Hong Kong, but he will become a martyr if they do not rescue him.
That cannot be something that is allowed to happen because Jimmy deserves to go home to his family and to be with them and not be held in this sham
trial that is all about the Chinese Communist Party strangling free speech, freedom of religion and freedom of democracy in Hong Kong.
[13:25:00]
GOLODRYGA: This has so many similarities with Alexey Navalny and his plight in Russian prison and those in the opposition who were making the
same argument about his death, turning him into a martyr and being an extra burden on President Putin and the Russian, the Kremlin leadership and their
regime. That didn't seem to matter at the end of the day. So, there is concern about the fate of Jimmy Lai now following this verdict.
I want to get your reaction to China's foreign ministry saying that it is, quote, "deplore -- that it deplores countries smearing Hong Kong's justice
system and they urge respect for China's sovereignty."
KEARNS: Just quickly before I go on to China's Communist Party and their propaganda spiel, this case also draws enormous parallels to Vladimir Kara-
Murza, who again was a freedom fighter speaking up for democracy, freedom of speech, rule of law, who returned to Russia to stand up to Putin and
speak out against renewed illegal invasion of Ukraine. He was brought home and that is the kind of hope that I bear in my heart that we will also be
able to get Jimmy Lai home.
But let me make this clear. If anyone is suggesting that this prosecution and therefore the Chinese Communist Party's word can be taken any way at
fast value, they are utterly wrong. And the reason for that is if all you need to do is look at the record of what the Chinese Communist Party has
been doing in Hong Kong since 2019, there is no rule of law anymore. That is what this prosecution shows. There is no freedom of speech. There is no
freedom of the media. And they will crack down on anyone who they see as a threat to their monopoly of power over voice and thought.
This is a man who has fought for freedoms and this is a man who we must speak out for so that he cannot be silenced.
GOLODRYGA: Alicia Kearns, we appreciate you taking the time. Thank you.
KEARNS: Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: LaDarkly comic South Korean satire is the toast of Hollywood after snagging three major nominations at this year's Golden Globe Awards.
"No Other Choice" tells the story of a man desperate to keep his job and willing to go to extreme lengths to eliminate the competition. It's the
latest film from acclaimed director Park Chan-wook. Park joined me recently to discuss what critics are calling an instant modern classic.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Director Park, thank you so much for joining us. Congratulations on this film, "No Other Choice." It's getting rave reviews
and it's interesting because it sounds like this movie was two decades in the making for you. You first read "The Axe" some 20 years ago. Talk about
wanting to adapt that into a film and why it stayed with you for so long.
PARK CHAN-WOOK, DIRECTOR, "IN NO OTHER CHOICE" (through translator): As all film directors do, I've always been looking for an opportunity to both
portray the internal world of an individual, but at the same time, the problems of the society that they're part of, which "The Axe" did
perfectly. And the project took some time to make it happen. But over those years, whenever I told any friend from any country, they would always say
that the subject matter felt very timely for them, which is why I wasn't -- I didn't give up on the project.
GOLODRYGA: And the story centers around a man, Mans-soo, who seemingly has it all. He's been working at a paper plant for some 25 years, has received
high praise for his work, has received awards as well. He's married, lives an affluent life with two children. And all of a sudden, things spiral
downward once he loses his job and subsequently can't find work for not three months, which he thought he originally would be able to do, but over
a year. And he turns to drastic measures, to say the least, as he is trying to eliminate any rivals for a potential new job here.
Talk about the decision to turn him into a murderer. And you say he goes after the wrong people, who he should actually be going after is the system
itself.
CHAN-WOOK (through translator): Man-soo, our protagonist, is a very typical man and others around him and himself also considers him a very
good man. And he went through many difficulties in his life to achieve the humble success and the happiness that he currently has, which he lost with
his job. And the decision that this simple man could make in this moment, of course, he had other options, like he could file a lawsuit against the
company or start a labor movement or even become a revolutionary.
But the realistic solution, perhaps it's a foolish solution that he came up with, it was to murder his colleagues, which is also a brilliant method, in
my opinion. And this was a method that he found the most realistic, which he could find the immediate effect for upon executing it. And I think
that's a clever premise that the original novel had for the character.
[13:30:00]
Man-soo is an inexperienced murderer, so he needs to visit his potential competition because he needs to observe them very closely in order to
execute his plan. And in that process, he realizes that they are all very similar to him. He senses a bigger sense of familiarity and perhaps they
even seem very friendly to him as well. And the more that that happens, the more difficult his plan becomes to execute. And that is the central plot
and theme of the story.
GOLODRYGA: I want to show a short clip for our viewers from the film where Man-soo is actually going to visit one of his potential would-be victims.
And this is a line manager who had humiliated him earlier in the film when he had applied for a job. It's also a scene where Man-soo has to break his
sobriety in order to follow through on his plan for murder. Let's play the clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): How can you afford this house as a line manager? And that car? Someone might thing you're pocketing all kinds
of cash. That's not what I think, but others might think that way. I mean, I really don't think that. Here. Bottoms up. You OK?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): You're dead now. Bomb shots, OK?s
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: What do you see when you watch that moment in the film?
CHAN-WOOK (through translator): I see Man-soo, who is a man who has been preparing for murder, become friends with his victim. But in addition, it's
almost like he's looking at himself in the mirror because Man-soo himself had alcohol problems in the past and with that also violent tendencies as
well. And he's reminded of the memories of his past.
But in order to succeed in his murder plan, he has to drink the drink that is offered to him despite his nine years of sobriety. So, he has to not
only drink alcohol, but also take this bomb shots that's in front of him. So, there's that sense of bitter irony and also comedy that comes from this
moment.
GOLODRYGA: For a long time, I know this was envisioned as actually an English language American film. There was even there were Western studios
that were set up to produce it. What changed for you and this film specifically and as it relates to masculinity, humiliation from a Korean
male perspective specifically?
CHAN-WOOK (through translator): I don't think anything has fundamentally changed making this into a Korean film from an American film. I did
introduce Man-soo's new hobby of bonsai while changing this into a Korean movie, which I was able to cinematically utilize further beyond just his
hobby. But I don't think the essence of the film has changed.
And regarding the masculinity, the subject of masculinity, the Korean society does have stronger traces of Confucian order and values. So, I did
assume that Korean audiences perhaps might come in with stronger ideas of what kind of a husband, what kind of a behavior a husband should have or a
man should have. But after having screened it in multiple countries around the world, I realized that audiences actually have very similar reactions
and ideas in regards to that subject matter.
GOLODRYGA: It was interesting how you described Man-soo as the protagonist in this film. He is in fact a murderer and depict the real antagonist and
villain being automation and A.I. Talk about the role that they have had and especially since this has been 20 years in the making. We've only been
talking about A.I. for the last few years, but it has really changed the world.
CHAN-WOOK (through translator): Yes, I was not able to make this film for a long time because I couldn't find the investment for it. But the reason I
was glad it took that long is because it allowed me to introduce that concept of A.I.
So, Man-soo has put in so much effort to eliminate his human competitors and find a job again, only to be met with the stronger and scarier
competitor, the A.I. And I think that element really completes a large paradox of this film. So, in the end, he's this manager and he's the last
human that's left in this factory. And he believes that he is in control at this factory.
But I don't want to spoil anything. So, you should see for yourself how that feels for him. But I can only say that it is a very sad ending for all
of us.
[13:35:00]
GOLODRYGA: And I felt that ending as well. We should note that A.I. is not only a game changer in concern, but also offering promise as well for
industries far beyond manufacturing, including your industry, the film industry, my industry, journalism. It's touching every industry in the
world.
Something else that is touching the world, and the world has been won over, I have to say, by Korean influence. The culture is a global phenomenon.
"Squid Games," as we noted, made Lee Byung-young a worldwide star. K-pop, just ask my daughter, is filling stadiums. And this movie is now being
compared to last year's Oscar winner, "Parasite." How do you feel about this moment right now, where Korean culture really has been elevated?
CHAN-WOOK (through translator): First of all, I hope this is not a temporary trend that's just in fashion, but I think the reason for the
success of Korean culture today is that Koreans have experienced many difficulties and pains in modern history. So, inevitably, all of us have
also experienced great depth and variety of emotions and great range over time as well.
So, I believe that great influence that Korean culture has today is truly the price that -- or the gain that we've gotten through the pain that we've
experienced in our history. So, I actually quite feel bitter about that.
GOLODRYGA: Well, I have to say, I don't think that the West's appreciation for Korean culture is a temporary phenomenon. And I have to also say that
the reviews for this film have just been incredible. We wish you so much luck with it. I don't remember the last time I saw 100 percent on Rotten
Tomatoes. So, there's an accomplishment in and of itself. Director Park, thank you so much. We appreciate the time.
CHAN-WOOK: Thank you very much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: "No Other Choice" will be released worldwide in January. And we'll be right back after the short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: Next to a growing medical crisis in America, the number of cases of Alzheimer's disease has doubled in the last 25 years, and now
researchers fear the quest for a cure could be set back significantly as funding is being frozen, delayed, and revoked.
A year after he was sworn in, New Jersey Senator Andy Kim used his maiden speech on the Senate floor to draw attention to the matter. And he joins
Hari Sreenivasan to discuss the difficult road ahead for caregivers as he becomes one himself.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HARI SREENIVASAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Bianna, thanks. Senator Andy Kim, thanks so much for joining us.
You made your first speech in the Senate just a few days ago, and in it you remarked about your father's diagnosis with Alzheimer's.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ANDY KIM (D-NJ): I remember dropping him off after the appointment and sitting in the car alone, left to grapple with our new future.
Realizing for the first time that to my list of core identities as a son, as a brother, a husband, a father, an American, a public servant, I now add
caregiver.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SREENIVASAN: Why was it important for you to weave that into this conversation?
KIM: Well, first of all, it's what I'm going through, it's what my family's going through, and I don't think people can really understand my
state of mind and what I'm trying to get done in the U.S. Senate without understanding the challenge that we're facing.
[13:40:00]
But also, because it's a challenge that millions of Americans are facing. You know, 7 million Americans have Alzheimer's right now. That means tens
of millions of family members are struggling the way that I am. And many, many more with dementia and Parkinson's and other debilitating diseases and
illnesses. You know, this is a crisis, but it's often a quiet crisis. It's often one where we don't talk about it.
But I'll tell you, ever since I gave that speech, we've been inundated by thousands of messages from around this country of people sharing their own
story. Even members of Congress that I've talked to have told me that they are going through this, that they haven't talked publicly about it, but
they are going through something quite similar. And I think it's important that we lift these voices up in order to demand help and support for so
many Americans that are desperately struggling right now.
SREENIVASAN: But why do you think it is that we don't talk about it? Why there's that stigma around it? Why we're keeping it quiet?
KIM: All of those other identities about me being a son, a husband, a father, they all bring me joy. You know, they all bring me opportunity.
They're things I love talking about, but the caregiver is one that brings my family certain pain.
And as a result, I'll be honest with you, like when I'm around my friends, like I don't want to talk about it, in part because I don't want to have to
think about it every single moment. I'm overwhelmed by it. Like even just talking to you, I feel like just -- you know, I feel like if I were to like
lean forward right now, the tears would just kind of come out. Like I am barely holding it together right now because it's hard, and it's not going
to get easier.
And so, I think that that's part of it. But I also, look, you know, in my job and perhaps this is what others do, like in my job, like we send out
campaign mailers of the perfect family. We try to show that leadership means that we have to be strong and impervious to stress. That emotions are
a weakness.
And what I am trying to show is that it's OK to say that we need help. It's OK to say that we are struggling. And that's the only way that we're going
to actually be able to create the kind of support needed for millions of families going through this.
And I'm part of the sandwich generation too. I've got an eight-year-old and a 10-year-old and a nearly 80-year-old dad. And I can't tell you how many
times when I've talked about the strains and stresses of being part of the sandwich generation, so many people say I went through that or I'm going
through that now or I'm scared of going through that. We should be able to have these kinds of conversations as a country.
SREENIVASAN: You know, what's also interesting is that when we find ourselves in that type of conversation, your political background doesn't
come up. And I'm asking you now, of the thousands of messages, I'm assuming some of them were people who probably disagreed with a lot of your
politics.
KIM: Absolutely. I heard directly from Republican senators, Republican politicians, and I'm sure many of those that responded. But that's exactly
why I gave the speech is because with all the divisiveness that we're facing right now as a country, if ever there was something, some issue that
connects us all at a fundamental human level that can transcend tribalism, it's about the love of raising a family and also the concern of a loved one
becoming sick or injured. And so, I'm trying to connect.
I could have delivered a speech about caregiving and Alzheimer's in many different ways, including very partisan ways that goes into my concerns
about cutting of Medicaid funding and other things. I chose not to because I chose to try to use a shared vocabulary that hopefully anyone that
listens to that speech, regardless of their political ideology, age, geography, hopefully it resonated with them.
SREENIVASAN: There's a part of this where you told a colleague that you would be forced to seek not the best care that my father could get, but
instead the best care for my father that my family could afford. If you don't mind, explain the choices that you were forced to make between
affordability and the quality of care for your dad.
KIM: Yes. Well, for instance, you know, my father, not only is he cognitively declining with Alzheimer's, but he's physically declining. He
is unable to walk. I have a home with stairs. I cannot figure out how to be able to manage to have him be able to be with us.
[13:45:00]
We've had to consider do we move houses? To right now -- he is now at a level of challenge. Last time I took him to the doctors, he couldn't even
remember what a seatbelt was anymore. And I'm -- you know, it's getting to the point where I have, you know, a tough day job that requires me to
travel a lot. I cannot be with him. And so, now the recommendation is he goes to a memory care unit. These are $1,200 to $1,500 a month.
Outrageously expensive.
You know, we're talking about upwards of 160,000 plus a year just for the place where he is to be. How can anyone afford that? I can't. It is
exceedingly difficult. And it's tough that I've had to cut back on putting aside money for my kid's college fund or my own retirement. We're the
richest, most powerful country in the world. Why do we force people to make such tradeoffs? And I'm doing better than many others. Many others are in
even greater dire circumstances.
SREENIVASAN: So, how -- when you and your wife and your family sit down, how do you make this big kitchen table decision? What are you going to do
financially to get to that point? Because if you had a home health care aid, that might be $85,000. If you -- in New Jersey, adult day services,
that would be $25,000, $30,000. I mean, there's no cheap solution at all.
KIM: No. No, there's no cheap solution. And so, a lot of it -- you know, we have to endure. And as I said, you know, we're trying to find every way
we can to be able to manage this. And we're in a better place than others. But it is sad, you know, to see. And it's going to get worse. You know, we
have 7 million people with Alzheimer's now in 2060, in 25 years we're going to have an estimated 14 million people with Alzheimer's in this country.
Not only is it going to be devastating for families, it's going to be devastating for our country. I mean, it could very well strain Medicare and
Medicaid and all of these other resources that we have as a country. All of us are affected by this. All of us are paying for this. So, you know, I
really do think that this needs to be a greater priority for us.
When we talk about medical research and a debate in my chamber in the Senate about whether we should be funding medical research, we see cuts
slashing funding to the NIH, to the NSF. That's dangerous. That's moving in the wrong direction. And I say this as someone where my father was actually
a medical researcher. He was a geneticist that was literally trying to cure cancer and Alzheimer's. And then now when the doctor asked him in a memory
test, you know, what did you do with your life? What was your job? My dad doesn't even remember that, you know, that Alzheimer's has erased from my
father's memory, his life's work trying to cure Alzheimer's. You know, these are the types of things that I hope people see that push us to say,
this is worth fighting for. This is worth investing in.
SREENIVASAN: You know, I remember reading that you got into politics and ran for the House at a time when the person who had the job in front of you
was wanting to repeal the Affordable Care Act. And you had a young baby at the time that needed health care. And now, I wonder, here you are in the
U.S. Senate. You have shared something that resonates with millions of people across the country.
What can you do about it now? Are there pieces of legislation, policy proposals that you think have a chance to get through an otherwise
incredibly divided Congress?
KIM: Yes. So, you know, first of all, there is some legislation out there, but there's more that's needed. You know, a couple of things I'm trying to
work on increasing our medical research. There's great innovation happening, and these incredible scientists that I talk to are saying for
the first time that they could potentially see a cure for Alzheimer's or a prevention of Alzheimer's coming forward. And I say that as someone who is
likely predisposed to have Alzheimer's when I get older, like we need to be pushing on this.
Number two, it's about this long-term care and care in affordability. You know, it's unaffordable. We're having a crisis right now when it comes to
this and how it's bankrupting families. It's crippling people, and they're not able to get the care that they need.
[13:50:00]
And three, that there are millions of caregivers, you know, 50, 60 million family caregivers and others who are putting aside their careers or trying
to make sacrifices to be able to be there for their loved ones. It shouldn't be this hard for them. They should be able to receive some type
of support and care to be able to help them.
And so, those are things that I'm working on. I'm drafting legislation. I'm trying to pull together bipartisan support. I talked to both Leader Thune
and Leader Schumer and seeking their commitment to work with me on this to push forward. But again, in order to do that, I do think we need to build a
movement. We need to build a caregiving movement in this country that speaks out about this and demands the support that is needed.
SREENIVASAN: Just recently, the Senate blocked proposals which offered alternatives to the pandemic-era enhanced premium tax credits, right? And I
think that they're about to go up, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation or KFF, that by about $1,016 per person for about 22 million
Americans. Here you are now at this decision point in your life about how costs are going to increase for your family.
How does that maybe affect how you think about all those millions of people who are also at this point saying, I don't know if I'm going to be able to
afford this?
KIM: Yes, I've heard from a lot of people back home in New Jersey that tell me that directly to my face about how they have skyrocketing health
care costs right now. Whether they're on the marketplace, the ACA, or other types of insurance, everyone's struggling with this. And what I hope is
that we see that we're in it together.
My father's Alzheimer's isn't any fault of his own. You know, the challenges that so many are facing, you know, this is something that could
very well affect any and all of us. And wouldn't we all want to make sure that there is just some standard, some foundation of dignity and decency
that we can be able to provide one another?
I hope that we can get there. But you're right, we're in an incredibly divided moment and very divided about what health care means to us. And I
hope to be somebody that can stand up and show this from a human personal perspective.
Too often, and I see this -- and honestly it's shameful that I see this sometimes here at the Capitol, where it's clear that people are making
actions or saying things about health care, holding up potential progress, because they think it's better for their political career or better for
their, you know, party's power. That's wrong. You know, that is absolutely wrong and we need to stop that.
SREENIVASAN: What is the emotional cost for you of caregiving? Because you mentioned that you and your father have had difficult times.
KIM: Yes. Well, I think so often people think that caregivers, that there is just this bottomless reservoir of love, that they're doing this for
their loved ones and that they're happy to do it. And look, I'm a son that will absolutely do everything I can to give my dad the kind of life of
dignity that he deserves, that any human deserves. But it's not always easy.
As you mentioned, and I said this in my speech, my father and I have had a complicated and tough relationship. And it is not something that
necessarily becomes incredibly easy for me to drop everything that I'm doing, to be there at a time of need. But I know no one else will be there.
And without me stepping in, my father will not have the life of dignity and decency that I think he and every human deserves.
SREENIVASAN: Senator Andy Kim, thanks so much.
KIM: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: A really powerful conversation. And finally, we wanted to end the show by paying tribute to a true icon of American entertainment.
Celebrated actor and director Rob Reiner and his wife Michele, a photographer, have died. Police say their son is in custody and has been
booked for murder.
With a Hollywood career spanning six decades, Reiner was responsible for directing some of the most notable films in cinematic history, like "Stand
By Me," "The Princess Bride," "This Is Spinal Tap," and of course, "When Harry Met Sally." Testament to his love for Michele, meeting her inspired
him to change the ending of "When Harry Met Sally" so the characters would end up together. Well, they went on to work together on films and for
countless charitable and political causes.
Rob Reiner joined Christiane in 2018 and again in 2024, using both occasions to advocate for a better world.
[13:55:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROB REINER, ACTOR: I have found myself in the last year and a half becoming very good friends with principled Republicans. For the first time,
you're seeing the really principled Republicans and Democrats coming together because this idea of whether or not we preserve democracy, that
cuts across party lines.
Right now, America is right at the crossroads of whether or not this world starts evolving into an autocratic world as opposed to holding onto
democracy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: May the Reiner's memory be a blessing. That is it for us for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly
after it airs on our podcast. Remember, you can always catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media. Thank you for watching, and goodbye
from New York.
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END
