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Amanpour
Interview With Former Acting U.S. Ambassador To Venezuela Todd D. Robinson; Interview With Venezuelan Opposition Politician And Spokesperson For Maria Corina Machada David Smolansky; Interview With Former Mexican Foreign Minister Jorge Castaneda. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired January 05, 2026 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:05:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
The Venezuelan strongman, Nicolas Maduro, pleads not guilty to narco- terrorism charges in New York after being captured by the United States in an audacious military operation over the weekend. We get the details from
the courtroom.
And I asked former acting U.S. ambassador to Venezuela, Todd Robinson, whether the U.S. should run the country, as Trump says.
Then Maduro's deputy becomes acting Venezuelan president. Trump dismisses the country's opposition party. I speak with one of those politicians,
David Smolansky.
Plus, if this is the new Trump doctrine, could Cuba, Colombia, Mexico, Greenland, Iran be next? Former Mexican foreign minister, Jorge Castaneda,
joins me with the big picture.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
Not guilty, completely innocent, so say the ousted president, Nicolas Maduro, and his wife in a New York court today. This comes just days after
a stunning operation saw U.S. special forces raid the capital of Venezuela, Caracas, arrest the dictator and his wife from their beds in the dead of
night, and extract them to the United States to face narco-terrorism and weapons charges. President Donald Trump declared his intention was to
assert, quote, "American dominance in the Western Hemisphere." And his number one focus is Venezuela's oil.
Maduro's deputy, Delcy Rodriguez, is acting as interim president, but President Trump has made it clear who's really in charge.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Don't ask me who's in charge because I'll give you an answer that will be very controversial.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What does that mean?
TRUMP: It's, we're in charge.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Well, he's also threatened Rodriguez with more military action if she doesn't do America's bidding. These extraordinary developments have
shaken the international world order, with many legal experts calling America's move blatantly illegal.
We'll get into all of that in this hour, but first to New York, where Maduro and his wife did enter that plea in a Manhattan courtroom and are
awaiting leaving that place. Correspondent Leigh Waldman is there. She has some details. So, you're waiting for Maduro and his wife to come out. What
were the highlights of the court appearance?
LEIGH WALDMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Christiane, it was a very interesting initial appearance for the ousted Venezuelan leader Nicolas Maduro and his
wife, Cilia Flores. It took about 30 minutes, but the judge granting some leeway here as the couple was using translators to enter in those not
guilty pleas, Maduro identifying himself saying, I am the president of Venezuela. And when he was asked for his plea, he said, quote, "I'm
innocent. I am not guilty." Flores, on her part, identified herself as the first lady of Venezuela. And when she was asked for her plea, she said, not
guilty, completely innocent. At this point, both of their attorneys are not seeking bail. They said that will come at a later point.
Now, something else that stood out to us in this courtroom is their attorneys are asking for a medical evaluation for the couple. They appeared
bruised, the first lady, her attorney, he was saying specifically asking for a medical evaluation because she had significant injuries, quote,
"during her abduction." That was a language that was used over and over again.
When Maduro himself was speaking again to the use of that translator, he had said that he was captured from his home. That's giving us some initial
insight onto what a possible defense in this case could be. His attorney, Barry Pollack, saying that he was a decent man when he entered that not
guilty plea and saying that it was a military abduction and that his attorney is saying that they violated the law when he was captured from his
home this this weekend, as well as with his wife.
[13:10:00]
So, that's giving us some initial insight into what the defense of this might be. Also saying that he should have immunity because he is the leader
of this country. The judge at this point is saying that we'll be back in court on March 17th at 11:00 a.m. to continue moving through what is
expected to be a year's long prosecution of the couple here.
AMANPOUR: And, Leigh, just finally, quickly, meantime, they will spend this time in that jail, right? In Brooklyn?
WALDMAN: Absolutely. So, they're going to be taken back to the Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn. It's a facility that's seen a
lot of high-profile inmates, including Sean Diddy Combs, R. Kelly and Luigi Mangione there. So, they're being transported back to the prison now.
AMANPOUR: All right. Leigh, thank you very much indeed for joining us from outside the court there. So, the Trump administration insists that Maduro's
capture was a law enforcement operation. They were simply carrying out an arrest warrant for the leader of a, quote, "narco-terrorist organization."
But during an emergency United Nations Security Council meeting today, the secretary general said he was, quote, "deeply concerned" that rules of
international law have not been respected. It is a dramatic return to 19th century gunboat diplomacy. But critics say even a successful operation with
no apparent sign of a day after plan is fraught with risk and even failure.
So, let's bring in Todd Robinson, who served as America's acting ambassador to Venezuela during Trump's first term. He's also served in the Bureau of
International Narcotics and Law Enforcement Affairs and therefore is highly qualified to talk to us about this moment. So, Ambassador Robinson, welcome
to the program.
Can I start by asking you just to comment on what we know about what went down in court? So, are you surprised with the way it went from the small
amounts of detail you've just been listening to?
TODD D. ROBINSON, FORMER ACTING U.S. AMBASSADOR TO VENEZUELA: No, I'm not surprised at all. I mean, the American justice system has a process. This
looked like very much a normal process that we've seen before. We saw it with Manuel Noriega in Panama. We saw it with Juan Orlando Hernandez in
Honduras. We've seen it with other leaders in the region. So, this looked normal.
I will say, though, that I'm struck by how Maduro looked, both Maduro and his wife looked sort of cowering when just a week ago he was literally
dancing and almost taunting the administration to do something about it.
AMANPOUR: Yes, you know, maybe we have the video we can show. I just want to ask you, A, what was your reaction when you woke up to hear what had
happened in that snatch operation and those -- that video of him seeming to mock the whole pressure that the administration had put on him? Do you
think knowing what you know, because you served under Trump 1.0 in Venezuela, do you think that basically could have been a tipping point
moment or was this so definitely on the cards? We hear it was planned for months. There were rehearsals, there was an informant, there was a CIA
intelligence and all of the rest of it.
ROBINSON: Well, I don't think we should discount either of those scenarios. You know, there is no doubt that the way this operation went
down tactically, the military was ready to do what it was called upon to do. And I am in awe, as ever, of the United States military ability to do
these kinds of operations. They plan rigorously, regularly for things like this. And they you know, they're always ready.
That said, I think anything is possible, right? It is possible that the taunting could have caused this. I just don't know. And I think we learn
every day over the past year that, you know, anything is possible coming from this administration.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, that's one thing we'll get into, what is the next steps you think might be possible? But I just want to focus on the reasons for
this. We've been reporting, the Trump administration has been saying a number of different things over the months in which they ratcheted up this
pressure, sending in that huge naval fleet into the Caribbean off the coast of Venezuela, building up American base there in Trinidad, et cetera, et
cetera. It was A, about drugs, which is what he's facing in court. B, was it about democracy? C, is it about oil? What is it actually about?
[13:15:00]
Because let's be very, very fair. And I want you to confirm this for me. Drug trafficking is, in fact, not a big thing when it comes to Venezuela.
It's a transit route, not a producer. The U.N. says only about 5 percent of Colombian cocaine passes through Venezuela. And 96 percent of fentanyl
seized by the U.S. has been intercepted on the Mexico border. Venezuela has no connection to U.S. fentanyl. So, can you tell me what you think about
the whole drug indictment?
ROBINSON: Well, OK. So, I think we have to separate the indictment from the reason for why this action was taken.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
ROBINSON: It is very clear, if you look at the indictment, that Nicolas Maduro and the people around him, including the Venezuelan military, were
involved in narcotics, facilitating narcotics trafficking through Venezuela. Of that, there is very little doubt. So, let's set that aside.
And I think it's, frankly, going to be fairly easy for the Southern District of New York to prove that. So, let's set that aside.
I think the complicating factor is the messages coming out of the White House on this. Why they are -- why they did this now, why they have several
different stories for why they are doing this, is really quite worrying. I think that's what's worrying the International Community. I think that's
what's probably worrying members of Congress. There is no clarity on why they are doing what they're doing now.
And I have to say, the argument that they were doing it because of drug trafficking in the Eastern Caribbean is really quite weak. I mean, as you
noted, 95, 96 percent of the drugs coming into the United States were coming up from Central -- from South America through Central America and
Mexico to our southwest border.
So, I think, you know, it could be all of those reasons. It could be none of those reasons. Again, this is how we've seen this administration operate
over the past year.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, again, you know this administration. And let's just point out one, what appears to be massive contradiction, some might call it
an absurdity, when you try to -- when you bring this guy in, Maduro for -- to face drug charges and the same president of the United States, Donald
Trump, pardons an actual president of Honduras, a former president, Juan Orlando Hernandez, who had been tried and convicted in New York and facing
long, long, long jail time, 45 years for taking bribes from drug traffickers, moving some 400 tons of coke through Honduras to the United
States. He gets pardoned.
So, how are people either in Venezuela or in the rest of the world or in the United States meant to grapple with that?
ROBINSON: No, I think you're absolutely right. This is a huge contradiction, and it undermines the credibility, frankly, of the actions
that were taken against Maduro. Here you have a president that was also convicted by the Southern District of New York, who clearly was involved in
narcotics trafficking and for some reason, we still don't know why, was pardoned by this administration. And now, you have Nicolas Maduro, who is
in the same courtroom, probably, that Juan Orlando Hernandez was in for basically the same charges, being charged by the same prosecutors that
prosecuted Juan Orlando Hernandez.
AMANPOUR: OK.
ROBINSON: I think it's a huge contradiction and something, again, that this administration will have to answer.
AMANPOUR: President Trump also dismissed the idea that the opposition -- I mean, up until now, we've heard the United States and all the International
Community talk about the opposition as the legitimate opposition who rightly and fairly won the latest election, the 2024 election in Venezuela.
They assess that it was stolen by the Maduro regime. And yet, now President Trump dismisses Maria Corina Machado. We're going to get to that in a
minute. Says that she's not up to it. She doesn't have the respect of the people or the military.
But he does talk almost exclusively, President Trump, about oil, oil in Venezuela. Here's what he said on Air Force One. Just take a listen.
[13:20:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Remember, they stole our property. It was the greatest theft in the history of America. Nobody has ever stolen our
property like they have. They took our oil away from us. They took the infrastructure away. And all that infrastructure's rotted and decayed. And
the oil companies are going to go in and rebuild it. We're not going to spend very much money at all, if anything. But the oil companies are going
to go. We're going to take our oil back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, I'm seeing, I think, also Republican Senator Lindsey Graham standing next to President Trump and nodding and nodding and nodding about
this. Could you tell us, because basically that's what the analysis is, it's about oil, it's about an asset grab, it's about dominance, what is the
situation? I mean, tell us, for the people who don't know, did Venezuela steal American oil or its contracts or its ability there to work? What is
Trump talking about?
ROBINSON: I am in a little bit of confusion, as the rest of the American people. My understanding is there were -- when I was there, there were oil
companies, including an American oil company, Chevron, working in Venezuela, number one. Number two, so little of Venezuelan oil was actually
coming to the United States. There were a number of other international companies, including from, I think, Norway, working in Venezuela. So, I'm
not quite sure what this argument about stolen oil is about.
What worries me, though, is the point you raised earlier about the opposition seeming to be sidelined. People forget that just a few months
ago, there was an election in Venezuela, and ordinary Venezuelans in large numbers risked their lives to vote for Edmundo Gonzalez, who I think should
be considered the president-elect, and the coalition built by Maria Corina Machado.
And now, we seem to have sidelined them and sidelined the voices of ordinary Venezuelans and appear to be working with part of the regime that
kept Venezuela under its thumb. I was stunned at the press conference by the remarks of the president and others in the room. I don't, frankly,
understand it. If there is a strategy here, maybe we'll see it play out, but I don't see it now.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, that means we have to ask you the obvious question now. You have -- you know, Delcy Rodriguez, the person who was Maduro's deputy,
who you just mentioned, and has been sworn in as interim Venezuelan president. And President Trump and Rubio, the secretary of state, have said
about working with her, also holding a, you know, whatever, a future military intervention over her head if she doesn't do their bidding.
So, what do you know about her? Why would they double down on her? And what does it mean when Trump says, we are running Venezuela? What does that
mean?
ROBINSON: Well, I'm going to start with the last part of this. I have -- I am confused by the president's statement about us running Venezuela. Does
that include security? Are we going to take over the banking system? The justice system? You already saw Secretary Rubio walk that back a little bit
and say that they were in fact working with Delcy Rodriguez.
Delcy Rodriguez is the -- was the vice president of the country. She is part of that ruling elite. My guess is she has worked some kind of deal
where she will either be able to stay for a while as the -- as they work through a transition, perhaps leave after the transition is over. She was
part of the ruling elite, the coterie that was benefiting from the -- all of the illegal activity going on at the highest levels of the Maduro
regime.
So, it is clear that she's probably going to benefit if she is allowed to take the ill-gotten gains from her time there and either leave and go
somewhere outside of Venezuela or try to stay.
[13:25:00]
Although, I have to say, I don't see a scenario where someone like Delcy Rodriguez can comfortably continue to live in Venezuela after all of this.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, let's just posit that this is not also regime change because the regime is still in charge under a client, apparently, client
like Delcy Rodriguez who Trump and Rubio expect to do their bidding.
So, what was your experience with her? For instance, you know, is -- does she have control over all the different factions, the power brokers like
the military, the interior minister, all the other things that need to be in line if it's going to be, you know, the U.S. running it through
Rodriguez and presumably the rest of the major stakeholders there?
ROBINSON: Well, I have a former colleague who described the regime as kind of a hydra with different heads and I think Delcy and her brother Jorge
Rodriguez were one part of the hydra. I think party leader Diosdado Cabello, a former military guy, is another part of the hydra and I think
General Vladimir Padrino Lopez is another part of this hydra. Those two -- those three, Delcy Rodriguez, Padrino Lopez and Diosdado Cabello continue
to be part of the regime in Venezuela.
Diosdado Cabello was listed in the indictment that came out. Why is he still there and Maduro and his wife who are also listed in the indictment
here in New York? I think that's a question --
AMANPOUR: And just quickly, Delcy, you met her. These are a lot of questions that need to be answered. You met her. What was she like? What --
did -- I mean, was there any -- yes, tell me.
ROBINSON: She is fervently committed to the Bolivarian system, whatever that means. She was a clear insider, former president of the National
Assembly, a position you can't get unless you're very close to the president, to the former president, Nicolas Maduro, de facto president. She
is cunning, very clever. I found her to be smart but combative. She is, you know, someone who defends and will defend the regime.
AMANPOUR: Really, really, really interesting. She will defend the regime, but she's meant to be doing sort of the viceroy's bidding, i.e., the United
States. Maybe that viceroy is Secretary of State Rubio. We don't know what's going on, but his fingerprints are over quite a lot of this as well.
It's his baby, according to most analysts. So, Ambassador Robinson, thank you very much for joining us.
And we're going to continue this conversation now with a member of the opposition. Stay with CNN. We'll be right back after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:30:00]
AMANPOUR: One of the most extraordinary features of this whole affair is President Trump's wholesale rejection of Venezuela's opposition. So, what
part does restoring democracy to the nation play? When asked about the leader Maria Corina Machado, whose party was widely credited with winning
last year's election, here's what Trump said on Saturday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I think it would be very tough for her to be the leader. She doesn't have the support within or the respect within the country. She's a
very nice woman, but she doesn't have the respect.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Tough words. Opposition politician David Smolansky is a close aide of Machado, and he's joining me now from Washington, D.C. David
Smolansky, thank you, and welcome back to our program.
We last talked when, you know, Maria Corina Machado had won the Nobel Prize, or it had been announced that she was winning it, and she was all in
for Trump and the pressure on Maduro and going against quite a lot of Latin American popular, or at least government, governments who were sort of
criticizing this gunboat diplomacy. And she's been rewarded with having been, as they say in the vernacular, dissed by the President of the United
States. What is your reaction to that?
DAVID SMOLANSKY, VENEZUELAN OPPOSITION POLITICIAN: Well, Christiane, thank you so much for having me. I think we need to see what is happening in my
country since January 3rd, different chapters here.
First of all, we are grateful with President Trump and the U.S. administration, Secretary Rubio, Secretary Hegseth for the smooth, clean,
and fast operation that happened in Venezuela on January 3rd, where finally Maduro and his wife are facing justice. This is something that the
overwhelming majority of Venezuelans support, and this is a huge step for a democratic and orderly transition.
Regarding Maria Corina Machado and President-elect Edmundo Gonzalez Urrutia, they have the overwhelming support of Venezuelans. They've got the
legitimacy not once, but twice in the case of Maria Corina Machado was elected in the primary. And then when she endorsed President-elect Edmundo
Gonzalez, we won and we proved we won the election on July 28, 2024, 70-30, despite it was an election that lacked transparency and was rigged.
But that was the tool that we used to mobilize millions of Venezuelans and has contributed to get to this point. And I don't have any doubt that Maria
Corina Machado with President-elect Edmundo Gonzalez are going to lead the rebuilding of Venezuela, for sure.
AMANPOUR: OK. Well, that -- I'm glad you don't have any doubt. And let's reinforce what you say. Clearly, a majority of Venezuelans and many people
around the world, including the Venezuelan diaspora, are delighted about this, shed no tears for Maduro and his wife.
But this is not regime change. And I want to drill down with you on what, you know, Ambassador Robinson just told us, because I need to understand
what's going on. But first, the issue of respect and, I guess, influence with the military. This is what Mrs. Machado told me in October about --
you know, about the support she thought she could call on in Venezuela.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARIA CORINA MACHADO, VENEZUELA OPPOSITION LEADER: He's more isolated than ever, not only locally, I mean, internally, even -- he doesn't even trust
the armed forces or the police. This crazy idea, which is all fake about, you know, arming militias is because he doesn't trust the military. Over 80
percent of the armed forces are with us. They are also suffering hunger and humiliation, and they want to be part of a secure nation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, she's obviously talking about Maduro and how he's having to, you know, try to get these militias and all the rest of it. But just talk
to me about this military thing, because that's what the president of the United States said, that she does not have the command over them, the
respect of them, the ability to step in right now. What do you think is the truth there, the reality?
SMOLANSKY: Well, Maria Corina Machado, on that interview that you just showed, was totally right. If Maduro had the support of the military and
the armed forces, he wouldn't stay in Venezuela. He would have survived the military operation. It was proven, something that we have said for years,
that his inner circle of security was composed by Cuban agents. So, definitely he was isolated. He was probably betrayed, and he's facing
justice.
[13:35:00]
By the way, Christiane, I have to say something. Maduro is responsible for at least 20,000 illegal detentions, 20,000 innocent Venezuelans that didn't
have a right for a lawyer, attorney, didn't have a right sometimes to have a visit from families. They were completely innocent just because they
think differently. They were illegally detained. The majority were psychologically tortured and physically tortured.
And now, it's funny to see Maduro and Cilia with their rights being respected. They're having food in the jail. They're having access to an
attorney. And they are having the coverage of the news. So, this is completely different what we have been going through in Venezuela. And
we're still have -- we're still have -- they're still -- sorry, there are still more than 800 political prisoners that need to be released.
AMANPOUR: OK. So -- but I have not heard President Trump or Secretary of State Rubio say one thing about that. And I'm just amazed, even more amazed
by that, by the fact that they have not focused and they are not using the word democracy or anything like that. Maybe Rubio a little bit more, but
putting it on hold for now while they do, I don't know what. So, I want to know what you think they're going to do.
And furthermore, furthermore, what do you make of then? Because you're right, there are very few tears that are going to be shed for Maduro. But
Maduro's henchmen and women are still running the country. You just heard the U.S. ambassador under Trump 1.0 saying that. That is a fact. So, what
sense can we make of this? And how do you think there will be a democratic transition?
SMOLANSKY: Well, the beginnings of any transition always are a bit messy and confusing. It's been only 60 hours since this operation happened in my
country. I'm sure Secretary Rubio knows very well who Delcy Rodriguez is. Delcy Rodriguez is part of the Suns cartel. She was a mastermind to open
Venezuela's door to China, Russia and Iran. She has been an enabler to allow money laundry scheme and corruption for Maduro and obviously is
someone that you cannot trust and someone that doesn't have any support from Venezuelans. So, President Trump was very clear when he said that she
could end even worse than Maduro.
So, I'm optimistic that this will end well. I don't have any doubt and I want to reiterate that Maria Corina Machado and Edmundo Gonzalez are going
to lead the rebuilding of Venezuela. They are the ones who can guarantee a great alliance with the U.S., a great alliance with the democratic
countries in Latin America, a great alliance with the European Union and nations that go beyond. And this is something again that Venezuelans are
celebrating because there has been so much suffering for a long time.
AMANPOUR: A lot of suffering, you're absolutely right. And we have a report later in the program that will just remind people of that. But
Edmundo Gonzalez, who is considered the legitimate winner of the latest elections, made a statement today. This is what he said. He appealed
directly to the Venezuelan army to -- or the military to put him in power where he belongs. Here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EDMUNDO GONZALEZ, VENEZUELAN OPPOSITION LEADER (through translator): As president of the Venezuelan people, I issue a calm and clear call to the
national armed forces and the state security forces. Your duty is to uphold and enforce the sovereign mandate expressed on July 28, 2024. As commander
in chief, I remind you that your loyalty is to the constitution, to the people and to the republic. This is a historic moment and we are
approaching it with serenity, clarity and democratic commitment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, that was Sunday, giving the president even more -- President Trump even more time to reflect on that, because it was the United States
who declared and believed that his party, he actually won the elections. So, my question to you, you're in Washington, you're a political member of
the opposition. Who are you talking to? And what are you being told? Because President Trump publicly is saying one thing and secretary of
state, national security adviser and all the other jobs he has, Marco Rubio, is saying something slightly different. So, what are you meant to
understand for those who want to see a real democratic transition and not Maduro, you know, Maduro 2.0 taking over?
[13:40:00]
SMOLANSKY: Well, here in Washington, D.C., we're having constant and fluent communications with members of the administration, also in Congress
with House, Senate, Republicans, Democrats, obviously also with multilaterals like the Organization of American States, which tomorrow is
having a permanent council. Today was Security Council session of the of the United Nations.
And again, I think this message that President-elect Edmundo Gonzalez issued was very important because, Christiane, don't you think that the
armed forces in Venezuela aren't completely demoralized? This operation was impeccable. It just lasted three hours. There were no U.S. soldier injured
or killed. They found Maduro and Cilia Flores very quickly. So, they are demoralized. Maduro doesn't trust on them to the point that he had to ask
Cuba to provide Cuban agents to protect him and his wife.
So, Venezuelans are very clear of the type of regime that we have faced, the type of a brutal dictator that Maduro was. And we are working very
hard, especially during the last hours, to secure a democratic and orderly transition and to create conditions to have millions of Venezuelans back.
Because a lot of Venezuelans, there were almost 9 million Venezuelans who have fled this brutal dictatorship, are ready to go back and be part of the
rebuilding.
AMANPOUR: I fully hear you. I understand what you're saying. Clearly, the military has been demoralized and defanged. You're right. Even Cuba held
two days of mourning today because they admitted that some, you know, 30 plus members of their own military or security were the close protection
for Maduro. They clearly failed.
But my question to you is still, do you think -- let me ask you in a different way, you keep talking about an orderly transition, but there's
been no reach out that we can tell, nor any verbal commitment to democracy by President Trump. So, do you feel betrayed? Do you feel that Delcy
Rodriguez and the other guys who Ambassador Robinson read out, will they voluntarily leave? Will there be a fight internally? What do you think it
looks like?
SMOLANSKY: Again, Delcy Rodriguez could end even worse than Nicolas Maduro, as President Trump said. Delcy Rodriguez is a member of the Suns
cartel, is someone very close to China and Russia. She's a communist since she was very young. She's someone that no one can trust. Actually, she was
a with her brother, who is the speaker of the illegitimate Congress in Venezuela. Both of them were the mastermind of the rigged election.
So, she's under a lot of pressure. And also, she having a lot of tensions inside because the regime is as broken and cracked as ever, because no one
trusts on each other. So, again, I think this is just the beginning. Like every transition, the beginnings are messy, but we have the leadership with
credibility and legitimacy to lead the rebuilding.
AMANPOUR: OK. well, listen, thank you. It's important to hear from you, obviously, and the opposition, and we will continue to follow this and
where it leads and what the day after fully becomes. David Smolansky, thank you very much for joining us.
And we'll be right back after this short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:45:00]
AMANPOUR: So, let us try to get some more clarity. Where will this go next? Cuba, Colombia, Mexico, Iran, and Greenland, these are the four
countries and territory that President Trump has threatened since striking Venezuela, boldly stating that quote, "American dominance in the Western
Hemisphere will never be questioned again."
Nations though, and some governments are hitting back with the Colombian president, Gustavo Petro warning that he himself would take up arms if the
United States attacks his country and Mexican President Claudia Sheinbaum condemning American threats and recent action against her own nation. Take
a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLAUDIA SHEINBAUM, MEXICAN PRESIDENT (through translator): The history of Latin America is clear and compelling. Intervention has never brought
democracy. It has never generated wellbeing or lasting stability. Only the people themselves can build their own future, decide their path, exercise
sovereignty over their natural resources, and freely define their form of government.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, what are the implications for regional and global order? The former Mexican Foreign Minister, Jorge Castaneda is joining me now. Welcome
back to our program. You've heard the other interviews and I'm not sure whether you have any more clarity to offer us who are desperately trying to
figure out where this goes next and what was the actual aim of this operation and what might be further aims of the Trump administration. Have
you formulated that in your strategic calculus yet?
JORGE CASTANEDA, FORMER MEXICAN FOREIGN MINISTER: It is very difficult to do so, Christiane, because as Ambassador Robinson, who I know and admire,
said it's very confusing. There are all sorts of rationales that are being put forth by the Trump administration as to what they did this for, what
they want, and what the future looks like. Not just for Venezuela, but for other countries.
If you take seriously, and I think we should, the National Security Strategy document published in December and President Trump's statements in
the last couple of days about restoring American dominance in the Western hemisphere. I think the first thing we have to do is to divide the
hemisphere the way it is.
American dominance in terms of access to resources, geopolitical closeness, support, ideological affinity and to a large extent, has been the case in
what we call the Caribbean basin for well over a hundred years now, with the exception of Cuba.
Mexico's trade, Dominican Republics' trade, Salvadorian trade are all with the United States. Tourism is with the United States. Foreign investment in
these countries is American. In other words that dominance that President Trump referred to all has already existed for many, many years in this
northern part, let's say, of Latin America, the Caribbean basin.
Now, China has become the main trading partner of. Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Peru, Bolivia, Paraguay, and Uruguay. And the main investor in
Brazil, Argentina, and Chile. So, what is President Trump going to do? Is he going to force Lula to stop selling soybeans and iron ore to China? How
does he intend to achieve that? I'm confused. I'm mystified. I have no idea. But I do think if that's what he's seeking to do, he's biting off a
lot more than he can chew.
AMANPOUR: So, he has not actually mentioned China in the aftermath of all of this, but as you say, China is deemed by the administration and several
administrations as the great competitor challenger for the U.S. and his actions have sort of demonstrated that he wants to put China back in its
box with its tariffs and this and that.
But it's really interesting to hear you say how deeply entrenched China is right now in this western hemisphere, not in its own backyard, but in this
western hemisphere where Trump appears to be saying that we have the western hemisphere. China has whatever, you know, the Pacific and Russia
has Russia and we can do whatever it likes with Europe. But you are basically saying that not even in the western hemisphere is China being
dealt with?
CASTANEDA: Well, certainly not in what is generally called South America, or more specifically the southern cone. What Trump has been saying about
American dominance is true and has been true for many years in the Caribbean basin, but I don't see how he can achieve any of this in South
America in terms of the Monroe Doctrine and not allowing foreign powers to be present.
[13:50:00]
AMANPOUR: OK.
CASTANEDA: China is present already, and I don't see how in the world he's going to convince President Lula or even President Millei of Argentina, who
is his big buddy, to stop selling soybeans -- Argentine soybeans to China. Who does he want Millei to sell his soybeans to? He can't sell them to the
United States. The United States is the biggest producer of soybeans in the world.
AMANPOUR: Right. So, let's just move beyond that disconnect, which you pointed out, to another really important issue. Your own president was on
national television broadcast internationally today talking about this situation because Mexico has received fresh threats from President Trump.
You know, President Petro of Colombia has. Marco Rubio, it's not even a thinly veiled, it's not even it is a direct threat. If I was in Cuba and
member of a government in Cuba, I would be worried. I'm paraphrasing right now. That's the secretary of state of the United States of America.
So, what do you think is next? Do you think they will build on this military success and move on to Cuba and Mexico and Colombia and all the
other countries he's mentioned?
CASTANEDA: Well, I think there are three different cases, Christiane. In the case of Cuba, I have no doubt that Secretary of State Rubio will do
everything he can to pressure, bring greater pressure to bear on the Cuban dictatorship with the hope that it will finally and at long last fall. I'm
not sure he will succeed in that. Many American presidents have tried and have failed. But I think that certainly is up -- is coming next.
The case of Colombia, I think, is more rhetorical than anything else. But probably what President Trump and Secretary Rubio would like to see is that
in next year's presidential elections, the Colombian right of center or extreme right is very powerful, win back the presidency and abandon the
Petro Pink Wave membership for Colombia.
The case of Mexico is more complicated because on the one hand, President Trump has achieved most of what he wanted with Mexico under President
Sheinbaum. She has done practically everything he has asked for on migration, on drugs, on security, on combating the cartels.
Now, when President Trump says Mexico is run by cartels, it's partly true, it's partly false. But he and Secretary Rubio are very optimistic about
what Sheinbaum is doing in terms of destroying labs, seizing drugs, seizing precursor chemicals entering from China, et cetera, et cetera. What they
probably have not asked her yet to do, and they may do so now, is to hand over the political accomplices of the cartels in Mexico, which all happen
to be or most happen to be of her own party or her predecessor's government.
And that includes governors of the states of Sinaloa, Sonora, Michoacan, Tamaulipas. It includes the former Secretary of the Navy under Lopez
Obrador. It includes many other Morena Party politicians who so far have gotten the free pass from Sheinbaum and from Trump. Maybe now Trump and
Rubio will pressure much more on that front.
AMANPOUR: Really, really fascinating. Something else we need to watch. And then one last question. You know, you've heard from all our interviewees
that the current crop in charge and with the blessing of the United States in Venezuela are Maduro loyalists and very powerful Maduro loyalists. So
why do you think the Trump administration has chosen to work with them instead of empowering the opposition?
CASTANEDA: I think that -- but I'm just -- I'm really just guessing here. I think they believe they can work more and better with Delcy and Jorge
Rodriguez, brother and sister team. Maybe not entirely with Diosdado Cabello. I don't know if his days are numbered. And unlike with Marina
Corina Machado.
The question for me, Christiane, that your last guest actually did not really respond to is when will Maria Corina go back to Venezuela?
[13:55:00]
Apparently, the airspace has now been opened and so she is probably able to return if she wants to. Is the new Venezuelan government going to allow her
to return? Is the United States going to stop her from returning or help her to return? Will there be elections? If there are elections, she will
win overwhelmingly. And this entire project of working with the bad guys, with the Rodriguez brothers, et cetera, is not going to work. So, either
there are no elections or they ban her from running for election like Maduro did. Now, that's going to get complicated.
Another question, by the way, Christiane, which is interesting is, what is going to happen to the hundreds or 2,000, 3,000, 4,000 Cubans, security and
intelligence personnel in Venezuela? We know that 32 Cuban security people died in a firefight on Saturday, but there are several hundred, if not
several thousand more. What happens to them? Do they stay there or are they sent back to Cuba? Are they thrown in jail by this government? What happens
with them? I don't really know. I think there's a lot of questions pending here, Christiane, which we really just don't have answers to yet.
AMANPOUR: We just do not and that's why we're really pleased to have had all of you and you to wrap this up for us today and lay the groundwork for,
you know, the next several weeks and months of our reporting to try to figure out what is this? Is it a doctrine? Is it going somewhere else? And
most specifically, Jorge Castaneda, what Venezuela is going to look like in the next few weeks and months? Thank you so much indeed for being with us.
Quite frankly, as we've heard throughout this program, Venezuelans deserve and they clamor for a better life in what is, after all, one of the richest
nations in the world. They've been plagued by rising poverty and systems collapsed for more than a decade. The country's health care crisis is a
standout example due to a lack of economic support from Maduro's government, as well as sanctions from abroad. It's been quite rare for
international journalists to get a look at the nation's crumbling infrastructure or for local journalists to report under Maduro without fear
of retribution.
But back in 2019, Correspondent Paula Newton from CNN was able to get inside a Venezuelan pediatric hospital to chronicle the widespread
suffering caused by a lack of infrastructure and funds for health care providers. Here's an excerpt from that report.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAULA NEWTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Take a close look. This is an emergency pediatric ward in Venezuela. Overcrowded, unbearably hot, run
down, rudimentary treatment everywhere you look. And from nearly every bed and every child, a harrowing story.
Like this one. Natalia Rojas (ph) has not named her baby girl, born in early March during the first countrywide blackout. She's restless,
feverish, doctors suspect meningitis, but there's no way to find out. She needs several tests, Natalia tells me, and a scan of her little head, as
she puts it. But it can't be done here. Scans, x-rays, the blood lab haven't been operational for months.
We have been given exclusive access to two pediatric wards by outraged medical staff who say they can take no more. There are shortages of every
medicine and medical supply, not even the special formula that malnourished Aniber (ph) is so desperately in need of.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And just to say first, thank you to Paula Newton for that revealing report from back then. But even now, in the wake of the removal
of Maduro, people who are celebrating his removal told reporters that they still have these terrible difficulties with medicine and food, hospitals
and all the rest of it. So, that's a huge job that needs to be fixed for the people of Venezuela.
Finally, while this weekend's events mark another turning point in America's often turbulent relations with Venezuela, it's not the first time
the U.S. tried to overthrow Maduro's predecessor, Hugo Chavez, back in April 2002. Now, when I spoke to President Nicolas Maduro shortly after he
succeeded Chavez in 2014, I asked him about what he thought America wanted from his country. Quite prescient in retrospect.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Do you really believe they want to reconquer Latin America?
NICOLAS MADURO, VENEZUELAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Of course, of course I do. They want, first of all, the economic control -- they have the
political control through political classes and elites that govern some of our countries. And they want to have the military control. Because
regrettably, the U.S. elite, they have a project to try to establish the hegemony and the control. And in the world of today, it is impossible.
[14:00:00]
AMANPOUR: Do you have a message for the U.S.? There's been expelling of diplomats. You did it. They did it. Now, you've nominated Mr. Max Arbalest
as your new ambassador to Washington. What do you hope to see? What is your message to the United States?
MADURO (through translator): Well, my message is respect, dialogue, that we overcome the visions they have of our country. Precisely, I made a
decision to appoint a new ambassador to the U.S., a man that I trust, a great diplomat that knows the world, knows very well the U.S., and I'm
certain that he will be very helpful to establish new levels of relations. Don't go to a stalemate, to a blind alley regarding Venezuela and Latin
America. Our message to those ruling the U.S. is respect Venezuela, respect Latin America, and let's establish new levels of relations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Well, maybe there will be a new chapter in relations. For now, Maduro sits in a U.S. jail. That's it. Thank you for watching. Goodbye from
London.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:05:00]
END
