Return to Transcripts main page
Amanpour
Interview with Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT); Interview with MSF Secretary-General Christopher Lockyear. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired January 08, 2026 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
Fear and outrage in America after a woman is shot dead by ICE agent. I'll ask Senator Bernie Sanders for his reaction. And about Trump's moves in
Venezuela. Can the Senate stop the president from making further military interventions?
Then suffering in Gaza. Homeless Palestinians face horrendous winter conditions. While Israel continues to restrict aid and bans NGOs like MSF.
Its secretary general will join me.
Plus, are Trump's critics falling into an obvious trap? Bush speechwriter David Frum thinks so. And he tells Michel Martin why.
Welcome to the program everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
At home and abroad, the actions of the Trump administration have put the United States and its allies further on edge. Protests in Minneapolis today
over the harrowing videos broadcast everywhere. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, no.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Showing those who are taking the pictures yelling for ICE to stop. It shows the fatal shooting of an American woman by an ICE agent.
Trump and other federal officials defended the shooting as an act of self- defense. But witnesses say otherwise, as do the city's mayor and the state's governor. Here's the mayor.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACOB FREY, MINNEAPOLIS MAYOR: I have a message for ICE. To ICE, get the - - out of Minneapolis. We do not want you here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Unambiguous message there. Meanwhile, the president's international ambitions grow bolder. Continuing to insist that Greenland
should be America's, and now saying that U.S. oversight of Venezuela could last years.
Senators were finally briefed by Secretary of State Marco Rubio on Wednesday, with a split emerging along party lines about the legality and
goals of the administration's military action there. And their European allies have a message for them too. Poland is urging the U.S. Congress to
weigh in on Trump's ambition to control Greenland, a Danish territory, a NATO ally. And today, France's president, Macron, had a sober warning about
relying on America.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EMMANUAL MACRON, FRENCH PRESIDENT (through translator): We live in a world of great power, with a real temptation to divide up the world. And I
believe what has happened in recent months, or even in recent days, has done nothing to change this observation. And so, that is the great risk to
the international order in which we live. The United States is an established power, but one that is gradually turning away from some of its
allies, and breaking free from the international rules that until recently it was promoting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Now, therefore, there is much authority for the U.S. Congress to claw back right now. A little earlier, Senator Bernie Sanders joined me,
just before he was pulled away for a vote on a resolution that would force Trump to seek congressional approval for any further military intervention
against Venezuela.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Senator Sanders, welcome to the program.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): Good to be with you.
AMANPOUR: You know, it's been a very, very turbulent first week to this new year. I want to start by what's happening in, you know, the American
backyard right now, and that is in Minneapolis, where there's been these ongoing clashes between protesters and ICE, because of this incident in
which ICE shot dead a American citizen. And the video does not appear to show there was any need for that.
Could you please describe for me what you are thinking about this? What needs to be next steps?
SANDERS: Well, look, this has everything to do -- what happened in Minneapolis is outrageous. It's wrong. And as usual, the Trump
administration is lying about what happened. But overall, it reflects a policy of the Trump administration that they are going after many, many
hundreds of thousands of people in this country, undocumented people, often without due process, sometimes American citizens.
[13:05:00]
To my mind, what we have got to do, and I think most Americans understand, is we need to move to comprehensive immigration reform, not send out a
small army called ICE to harass, arrest and yesterday shoot people. That is not what this country is supposed to be about.
AMANPOUR: You know, it's extraordinary. The president himself has sent out, you know, messages on his website, you know, saying that the woman
violently, willfully and viciously ran over the ICE officer, which the video does not seem to show at all. You've had Kristi Noem, the DHS
secretary, calling her a domestic terrorist. And you have ICE, which is, you know, described to have been empowered as a bit of a personal militia
for the Trump administration. Tell me about this.
SANDERS: Well, I mean, the president of the United States lies is not something new. Just a few days ago, on January 6th, the anniversary of the
insurrection, where people attempted to overthrow the United States government, do away with an election. He, you know, reversed the -- he made
it clear that he gave the opinion this was a peaceful protest and blamed Democrats.
It's a very -- it's a scary situation. And what we have now is a very well- armed, very significantly increased force of ICE agents who are operating under a president who is doing very bad things.
AMANPOUR: Well, let me ask you, because you said that, obviously, his supporters will say he's doing very good things, but you are going into a
vote, you just told me, on a very important matter, which is Congress' obligations and constitutional duties regarding war powers and approving
and discussing these kinds of things. So, what do you think is going to happen in this vote? Will you win, do you think?
SANDERS: Well, we'll find out soon enough. But look, here's the issue. In the Constitution of the United States, it is the Congress that has the
authority to declare war. The president -- this was not an emergency. This was not a situation like Pearl Harbor or 9/11. Nobody attacked the United
States. This was a premeditated effort. They probably planned it for months. The Congress not only was not -- did not give authorization for
this act, they didn't even know about it. So, this is a president acting unilaterally in violation of the Constitution and the rule of law.
What worries me very much, Christiane, is if you have a president who thinks that he can simply invade another country, you're giving a green
light and a justification for any nation, any terrorist organization in the world to do the same.
I mean, the goal of what has been tried since World War II -- you know, World War II, 50 million people died. And leaders all over the world came
together and say, all right, look, how do we end this horror of war? Did they succeed completely? Certainly not. But there has not been a war in
Europe since Putin's invasion of Ukraine. That's a big deal.
And what Trump is basically saying is, look, I am powerful. I can do whatever I want. If I want Venezuela's oil, I'm going to get Venezuela's
oil. And what that does, I think, is make the world more unstable. It's a justification for Putin. How are you going to criticize Putin for his
invasion of Ukraine? What do you have to say for China? China involves -- gets involved in military adventurism or any other country.
So, it is -- that, to me, is the most dangerous aspect of what Trump has done, unleashing anarchy around the world, saying to any country on earth,
you can do whatever you want, undermining the international organizations, the international rule of law. It's a serious concern.
AMANPOUR: So, you got a briefing yesterday by -- I think it was an all- senator briefing from Secretary Rubio. I don't know whether there are others. But he used to --
SANDERS: I did not go to that briefing, as a matter of fact.
AMANPOUR: OK.
SANDERS: I did not go.
AMANPOUR: Do you know about it?
SANDERS: Yes. Well, you know, I know what the justification of it is, that Maduro is a bad guy. No kidding. This guy is a dictator. He's corrupt. He
lost the last election. You know, he is absolutely a bad news guy. And that's justification. Oil was, quote/unquote, "taken from the United
States." Oil companies. You know, the oil of Venezuela belongs to the people of Venezuela. He's a drug dealer. Well, and most of that stuff goes
to Europe. It's cocaine. You don't invade another country because they break international American, you know, drug laws. So, you know, their
justification for this is pretty weak.
[13:10:00]
Bottom line is the United States is very powerful. Trump believes he could do anything he wants. He's withdrawing from all kinds of international
organizations. And I think that sets a very dangerous situation.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, several Democratic senators, including Gallego and Murphy, have called it yesterday's a BS briefing. This is an insane plan.
They're proposing to steal Venezuela's oil at gunpoint forever and use that leverage to run the country.
SANDERS: Yes.
AMANPOUR: You've just spoken about that. Obviously, GOP senators have a different view, and they support it by and large. What is there to stop
Trump, though? You've had his deputy chief of staff --
SANDERS: All right. Let me just back up a little bit here. I mean, what we are talking about is not only the breaking of international law and
international anarchy. You're talking about old-fashioned imperialism. And all that that is throughout the history of the world, England, Spain,
Portugal, way back when, powerful nations went into poor, undeveloped areas and just exploited their resources. They were powerful. They were able to
do that.
And what we have seen in the last 100 years in Africa, in Latin America, is an effort for people in those countries to stand up and say, you know what,
these are our countries. You can't overthrow our governments. You can't run our governments. You can't steal our natural resources. We have to control
our own future. And what Trump is saying, to hell with all of that. We have the power. We're going to take -- we're going to do anything we want. Steal
resources for the oil companies.
Not to mention that, again, all over the world, China and other countries understand that the future is not with fossil fuel and oil given climate
change, but the much less expensive, sustainable energies like solar. So, he's propping up the oil industry at a time when we've got to move away
from fossil fuel. So, on top of everything else, that's pretty crazy.
AMANPOUR: Can I just play -- I know you have to run, but I want to play you something that a Republican Senator Thom Tillis said when he started to
threaten Greenland. That, for everybody, including here in Europe, is a step too far.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): Mr. President, I'm also here to talk about what I think is amateurish behavior with respect to the treatment of our NATO
allies. And it has to start with an interview that I saw with one of the president's senior policy advisers, Stephen Miller, on CNN a couple of
nights ago. Mr. Miller said that the U.S. government, obviously, Greenland should be part of the U.S. That is absurd.
Folks, amateur hour is over. You don't speak on behalf of this U.S. senator or the Congress. You can say it may be the position of the president of the
United States that Greenland should be a part of the United States, but it's not the position of this government because we are a co-equal branch.
And if that were to come to pass, there would be a vote on the floor to make it real. Not the surreal sort of environment that some deputy chief of
staff thinks was cute to say on TV.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Are Republicans getting exercised by some of this unilateral power muscle flexing around the world?
SANDERS: Christiane, I surely hope so. We have an authoritarian president who ignores the Constitution of the United States, acts in illegal ways
virtually every day. And what has disappointed me is there are Republicans in the Senate and the House who know better. And it is long time, it's long
overdue for those guys to start standing up to Trump and saying, you know what, you cannot break the law for your own reasons. So, I would hope that
some of my Republican friends and colleagues will begin to stand up to Trump.
AMANPOUR: I want to talk about domestic politics for a moment. The mayor of New York, Zohran Mamdani, has called you his long-time mentor, and you
swore him in in New York on January 1st. He recently told the nation, I would not be here were it not for Bernie Sanders. He gave me the language
with which to describe my own politics a decade ago. And he talked about knocking on doors for you in 2020, et cetera.
Tell me about this new wave of young American politics that seems to be shaking up Gen Z and seems to be really, they have their finger on the
pulse.
SANDERS: Look, in America today, we have more income and wealth inequality than we've ever had. And while the billionaires are becoming richer, 60
percent of our people are living paycheck to paycheck. It may shock people in Europe, but there are people in America who cannot afford food, cannot
afford health care, cannot afford housing because the housing is off the charts.
[13:15:00]
And you've had a democratic establishment that has not paid attention to the needs of the working class. So, you have somebody like Zohran Mamdani,
who comes forward and says, you know what, we got to deal with the real issues facing working people.
And not only does he talk about the real issues, but he also talks about the real issues. issues facing the working class in New York City. He does
what democratic establishment folks don't do. He organizes a grassroots movement. So, what's to me extraordinary is that he had 90,000 volunteers
in New York City alone knocking on doors. 90,000 people, a real grassroots movement.
And I think you're beginning to see that coast to coast where ordinary people are saying, you know what, we can take on the billionaire class. We
need an agenda that speaks to the needs of working class. Health care is a human right. Lowering the cost of housing, improving our educational
system, raising wages for the working class of this country.
So, I think Mamdani's victory was not only important for New York City, it really is an inspiration to people all over the country. And I was proud to
be a little part of that.
AMANPOUR: All right. Now, I know you're going to go and do your --
SANDERS: I apologize, I've got to run.
AMANPOUR: I know. You go. Go do that. Do the War Powers Act. Let's see what happens.
SANDERS: OK. Take care. Bye-bye.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Well, off he went. And now, we know what the results are, a small but significant bloc of Republicans did break with the president, did
vote with Sanders and all Senate Democrats to allow a future vote on the resolution. On Truth Social, President Trump fumed at the five GOP senators
saying, they should never be elected to office again.
Now, with America's intentions in Venezuela far from clear, the people there are facing a deeply uncertain future. One man who could play a role
in determining their fate was Nicolas Maduro's interior minister. And he was also listed second on the U.S. indictment, accusing Maduro of drug
trafficking. Paula Newton has more on him.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PAULA NEWTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Diosdado Cabello Rondon, a man Venezuelans have come to know and fear, surrounded by security forces,
defiant in the face of U.S. actions, with an ominous warning for the country. Treason will not be tolerated.
Cabello remains the second in command in Venezuela. And for years, he has cultivated a menacing image, even when he was the president of the National
Assembly. His talk show, "Con El Mazo Dando," striking with the hammer, was never subtle in the devotion it demanded to the regime.
For decades, he has led a vast array of security and intelligence forces, militias, paramilitary groups, and neighborhood enforcers, known as
colectivos. He is also the vice president and minister of security in charge of the national police. You pitch these at the National Guard and
the police.
NEWTON: You catch this at the National Guard and the police?
NEWTON (voice-over): All ordered many times to battle and intimidate their own citizens. In years reporting from Venezuela, we witnessed everything
from the National Guard taking on protesters to the FAES, the special forces, on local streets rooting out resistance to authority. Their
activities denounced by the U.N., with Cabello himself dictating much of the enforcement powers. He is an indicted co-conspirator, along with
Nicolas Maduro. Cabello has rejected these accusations.
And for now, he remains at the side of acting president, Delcy Rodriguez, as her interior minister and a fierce defender of Maduro's legacy. American
investigators describe him as one of the most powerful individuals in Venezuela. But the U.S. has now turned the tables.
PHIL GUNSON, INTERNATIONAL CRISIS GROUP: And he's just been hit with violence that is a thousand times greater than anything that he can bring
to bear. So, he's in this really -- his head spinning. It's so ironic because for years and years and years, these people have been telling us
that, you know, the gringos were coming, the CIA was here, that they were sabotaging the electricity grid and all the rest. It was all bull --. But
now the gringos really are here. I mean, the CIA really is here and the fleet's offshore.
And all this bravado, all this, yes, come and get me kind of thing, I think they've seen how that worked out for Maduro, right?
NEWTON (voice-over): And so, how will he react to the Trump administration's demands? CNN has learned that he and other leaders have
been ordered to cut ties with U.S. adversaries like Iran, Russia, Cuba and China, as well as cooperate on counter-narcotics and, crucially, oversee
oil sales to the United States.
Cabello's next moves will be closely scrutinized. He was dependably ruthless and shrewd with Maduro in power, emboldened by a security
apparatus that remains at his disposal even now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[13:20:00]
AMANPOUR: Well, that was an important reality check. These people, whose intentions are still unclear, now working with the United States. Stay with
CNN. We'll be right back after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Now, just look at these pictures. This is winter in Gaza, and its children are freezing in flooded tents. And many are lucky even to have
a tent. Israel continues to restrict them, plus tarpaulins and temporary housing, which are vital after so many in the enclave have lost their homes
in Israel's bombing campaign.
Since the ceasefire came into effect in October, more than 300 Palestinians have been killed by Israel in Gaza, according to the United Nations.
Meanwhile, Israel has revoked the licenses of 37 international NGOs working in Gaza and on the occupied West Bank, saying that they failed to meet
requirements under new registration rules. MSF is one of those organizations, and its secretary-general, Chris Lockyear, is joining me now
from Paris. Welcome to the program.
CHRISTOPHER LOCKYEAR, SECRETARY-GENERAL, MSF: Thank you, Christiane. Thanks for having me on.
AMANPOUR: Chris Lockyear, what, excuse me, are these new registrations? What have you failed to adhere to? What's going on?
LOCKYEAR: Well, yes, I mean, what we've been through is a very complex few days. And essentially, what we've been told is that our registration is no
longer valid. The accusation at the core of the situation is around providing information about our staff lists to the Israeli authorities.
Now, let's put this a little bit in context. What we have in amongst the absolutely catastrophic humanitarian situation that you were just talking
about is a situation whereby there have been over 500 humanitarian workers who have been killed, 15 of our own workers have been killed, and we've
been asked to provide information about our staff to the people who have killed our staff.
And so, we are in a situation of wanting to understand how this information is going to be used at the core of this point. And we've been in discussion
with the Israeli authorities for several months now, and we're still in conversation with the Israeli authorities.
At the core of our point here is that we have an obligation to the duty of care to as much as possible the safety of our staff and our teams who are
in every day providing essential humanitarian assistance to the population of Gaza. And that's really what is at the core of the issue here.
AMANPOUR: So, let me just play devil's advocate because you remember after October 7th, the Israeli government accused NGOs, and most notably the
U.N., of actually having Hamas members or affiliates or some kind of Hamas infiltration or hiring in their ranks. Obviously, the U.N. denied that, but
that has been a thing with the Israeli government. Is that what they're saying to you? Is that what you think this is about?
[13:25:00]
LOCKYEAR: Well, actually, what I think this is fundamentally about is about the manipulation and the instrumentalization of humanitarian
assistance. And that's a factor that we've seen throughout this war. And I think what it is essentially is a distraction from the situation in the
Gaza Strip.
I mean, there has been since this war started, over 70,000 people killed, over 170,000 people injured, as you were just saying, since the ceasefire,
the violence continues on a daily basis. So, I think it is about the manipulation of humanitarian assistance.
Now, the accusations are there, are coming. I would say at the moment, there is a propaganda campaign against humanitarian organizations, against
MSF, against dozens of other humanitarian organizations, which is essentially undermining the work that we do, and as a consequence, putting
our staff and our activities in acute danger.
AMANPOUR: Christopher Lockyear, what happens if you, the 37 NGOs who deliver humanitarian aid, and essentially keep Gaza afloat, because that's
all there is there, what happens when you're not there? Who will do what needs to keep body and soul together? Is the Israeli government going to do
it? Are there other NGOs? What will happen to the people of Gaza?
LOCKYEAR: Well, that's essentially our question too. I mean, let me put that a little bit in terms of context. As one of the dozens of humanitarian
organizations who are still trying to operate in Gaza, because we do want to continue to be able to provide emergency medical assistance to the
population of Gaza.
In 2025 alone, MSF carried out 800,000 outpatient consultations. We treated 100,000 trauma cases. We supported 10,000 deliveries, and we provided over
700 million liters of water. We support one in five of the hospital beds in Gaza, and we support one in three of the mothers giving birth on a daily
basis in Gaza. So, that is, and that is just one of the many humanitarian organizations who are facing this awful situation at the moment.
What we need to see in the Gaza Strip is an increase of humanitarian assistance, not a decrease of humanitarian assistance. And that
humanitarian assistance is a fundamental obligation under international humanitarian law. It is not optional. It is not to be caveated or
conditional. The people of the Gaza Strip need a flood, a still a massive increase of humanitarian assistance, even despite the 90 days of ceasefire
that we've seen recently.
AMANPOUR: Now, you gave us some numbers, very important numbers of your work there. We have these stats, and I want to put them up and read them.
So, MSF provides funding and international staff for six hospitals, runs two field hospitals and eight primary healthcare centers, clinics and
medical points, runs two of Gaza's five stabilization centers, helping children with severe malnutrition, and treat, as you said, 100,000 trauma
cases, performed surgeries on 10,000 patients, handled a third of Gaza's birth, has 60 international staffers in the West Bank and Gaza and more
than 1,200 local staff, mostly medical professionals. Now, that sounds like a lot. And of course, there are 37 groups that we're talking about.
The Israeli government says, you all represent quote, "only a small slice of a delivery and that Gaza can manage without them." Is that correct?
LOCKYEAR: I fundamentally disagree with that point. And particularly if you look at the situation at the moment, as we've gone into the winter
season, we're seeing an increase in diarrheal diseases. We're seeing an increase in respiratory infections, infections in general.
You know, there are 1.3 million people in need of emergency shelter that is not getting through. Now, there should be more. We could do more. The
humanitarian community as a whole could do more. If we're allowed to do that in an unrestricted way --
(CNN U.S. SIMULCAST)
[13:25:00]
END
