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Amanpour
Interview with MSF Emergency Coordinator in Beirut Christopher Stokes; Interview with Haaretz Military Correspondent and Defense Analyst Amos Harel; Interview with Mo Ibrahim Foundation Founder and Chair Mo Ibrahim; Interview with "Who Needs Friends" Author Andrew McCarthy. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired April 14, 2026 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Hello everyone and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
Israel and Lebanon break the diplomatic ice after 40 years. What this could mean for the humanitarian crisis on the ground. And the IDF's still
expanding operation into Lebanon. I speak to MSF official Christopher Stokes. And military analyst Amos Harel.
Also, ahead --
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): We have no food or water. With no clothes and barefoot. And we came fleeing on foot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- as Sudan enters its fourth year of bloodshed and loss. I speak with philanthropist Mo Ibrahim. Who warns the fallout could spill
beyond the country's borders.
Plus --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDREW MCCARTHY, AUTHOR, "WHO NEEDS FRIENDS": Men have a fear of sort of admitting vulnerability. Because vulnerability can be misconstrued somehow
as weakness.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- "Who Needs Friends." How a cross-country road trip rekindled old friendships. Actor Andrew McCarthy tells Hari Sreenivasan why men need
closer connections with each other.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York. Sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
Does diplomacy still stand a chance? Israel and Lebanon are meeting in Washington. In their highest-level direct talks in more than 40 years. The
historic negotiations are part of a U.S. brokered attempt to end Israel's war with Hezbollah. But the gaps of disagreement are wide. And progress
could be dashed by the Iran-backed militia, which says that it won't abide by any agreement reached in the meeting.
Yet as momentous as these talks may be. On the ground the reality is far less hopeful for civilians. Although Israel has scaled back attacks on
Lebanon this week, dozens of people have been reported killed in the past day. And Lebanese communities are still reeling from the biggest Israeli
assault of the conflict last Wednesday, which killed 300 people and wounded more than a thousand, that is according to Lebanon's health ministry.
And for the Lebanese people grappling with loss and displacement there's little hope that negotiations will herald change.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): As for the negotiations, as usual, I'm not very hopeful. But God willing, this will lead to a lasting
solution. We hope that our prime minister will pay close attention to the negotiations. And make sure they're successful so all these people can go
home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The current situation is hopeless. There's no -- we don't see any glimmer of hope for the future.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Healthcare workers have also been victims in this war. Since early March dozens of medics have been killed in Israeli strikes. MSF
volunteers have been working across three major hospitals in Lebanon. And their emergency coordinator Christopher Stokes. Joins me now live from
Beirut. Christopher welcome to the program.
As we noted you are there live on the ground in Beirut. Beyond the headlines. What is the immediate reality facing civilians there and your
colleagues who are working effortlessly to help them?
CHRISTOPHER STOKES, MSF EMERGENCY COORDINATOR IN BEIRUT: Well, the immediate reality for all the Lebanese is a life of fear and uncertainty
for the moment. I'm in central Beirut. Yesterday I was in the south of the country. And overhead you regularly hear drones that are aiming to acquire
targets for further strikes. Last Wednesday. We had a massive attack with over a hundred -- the day after the ceasefire actually, over a hundred
strikes in 10 minutes and something like 300 dead and well over a thousand casualties just in that moment.
And then you have massive displacement. So, the city is teeming with people who have been expelled from the south of the country.
GOLODRYGA: And as we've noted. Your team is working with a mass influx of casualties, including a child who recently lost six family members. The WHO
has warned that critical supplies are running out. The health care workers are pushed to exhaustion there as they're working around the clock to help
these civilians. Are hospitals equipped at this point to provide the aid that is needed?
[13:05:00]
STOKES: Yes, first off, the Lebanese health professionals are really doing an amazing job. They've been at this for over 40 days. And you have to
imagine, in many of these hospitals, perhaps they've received one or two heavy casualties, multi, polytraumas a week. And now, they're getting 10,
15 a day.
Just today -- or yesterday, there were 35 dead and 159 wounded across the country as a result of Israeli airstrikes. And this is really happening
every single day. But the staff are exhausted. Sometimes their hospitals are damaged as well. So, when they're not treating patients, they're
sweeping broken glass or trying to repair the damaged infrastructure because of strikes that happen quite close to their hospitals.
And many of the Lebanese professionals are actually doctors and nurses are sleeping in the hospitals. They live on the ground floor because it's so
dangerous to move, to come to and from the hospital. So, everything is a struggle.
GOLODRYGA: And yet, it's not a new struggle. Lebanon is very familiar, unfortunately, to this type of fighting and destruction between Hezbollah
and Israel there in this part of the country in particular. We've been covering it just recently over the past years, but you could go back
decades. And this conflict was still as deadly as it is today.
And that is my question to you. In terms of the destruction, are you seeing something different now than what you've seen most recently? Let's go back
a year before the ceasefire was in place.
STOKES: I think we're seeing a lot of civilian casualties and we're seeing a lot of civilian casualties across the board. Only the other day, we
treated two young women in the south of the country who'd been injured in an airstrike. One of them had bilateral lower limb amputations and came in
with her foot lying on the stretcher. Her foot was sectioned and her friend came in with an unstable femoral fracture with -- and her thigh was slowly
filling up with fluid. And so, we're seeing really very heavy civilian casualties.
Basically, because the weapons being used by Israel are landing in very dense urban areas where you have a high concentration of population. So,
that is one specific problem that is really, it's more than a problem. It's absolutely unacceptable. But the loss of civilian life is quite heavy. And
Lebanon saw something similar in 24, also in 2006, but it isn't always like this. And certainly, this war is lasting a long time now.
GOLODRYGA: No doubt. And of course, Israel will say that they are targeting Hezbollah fighters who have immersed themselves among the
population. Just give us a sense of the reality though, when these warnings do come in from the IDF to evacuate, how feasible is that? Where do
civilians go?
STOKES: Well, one of the problems is these warnings -- so, the attacks, for example, last week came without any warning here in Beirut. I was
actually sitting here in the Doctors Without Borders office and we could see the strikes. And so, some of the strikes happen without warning. So, if
you're -- whatever the target that Israel is aiming at, if you're walking in the street or if you happen to be in that building and the building
collapses on you, your chances of survival are quite slim. So, that's one problem.
Then you have these huge areas that have been ordered that are under orders from Israel to be evacuated, including everything that's south of the
Litani River. We're talking about a half a million people. And so, you have 1.1 to 1.2 million displaced, creating huge pressure. And a lot of these
people don't know if they'll ever go back home because they've been told, including by Israeli ministers, that their villages are going to be turned
into rubble like Gaza was. So, that's really weighing on people beyond their living conditions, is where will they be? Where will they be living
in the coming months and years?
GOLODRYGA: Yes. And I'm going to discuss that with my next guest, Israel Defense Minister Katz, stating that Israel will destroy homes in the
Lebanese border villages, explicitly citing the destruction that we saw in the war with Gaza, in Gaza.
You mentioned last Wednesday, and that was, I believe, the largest attack that Israel had conducted since Hezbollah launched its war with Israel this
past month, following Israel in the United States launching its attacks on Iran.
[13:10:00]
Just tell us about that day. I'm curious to hear, given your proximity, this was, I believe, a hundred strikes in just 10 minutes' time. What did
that feel like? What did that sound and look like?
STOKES: Well, it created a huge sense of shock and worry. So, people are used to a strike here and there in Beirut, which is already bad enough, you
can imagine. And then at that moment, totally unannounced, over a hundred strikes. So, you could hear the city being hit. There was smoke in many
different areas, and everybody just grabbed their phones and tried to see if their family members were safe. And so, everybody here in the office, my
Lebanese colleagues, jumped on their phone. People were very emotional and very worried.
The hospitals were overloaded. They did the best they could. Many of the bodies were hard to identify. Also, in some cases, you had entire families
killed. So, you didn't have any survivors to identify the body. And we had tragic cases. In Sour, in the south, we had a young seven-year-old girl who
came into the hospital injured and crying. All her family members, we later discovered seven of her family members were buried under the rubble.
And actually, we've had people on that day who'd seen the ceasefire during the night, and they thought the war would be over. And ordinary Lebanese
civilians started returning. Some went home, and we had several cases of families who were injured or wounded or killed actually going home to the
south, thinking the war was over, but they were met with continued destruction.
GOLODRYGA: I want to play sound from one Lebanese man grappling with the war who I think speaks for a large portion of the population that is angry,
angry at, obviously, Israel for the strikes, angry at Hezbollah for dragging Lebanon once again into a war that Lebanese people and civilians
don't want. Listen to what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): There's something unbelievable. Destruction, very massive destruction. I mean, even someone who isn't
afraid would become afraid. I feel fear and anxiety. Where is this country headed? What are we going to do with our lives? Where are we staying, and
where are we going? No one knows what's going to happen. We have children, livelihoods, property. People want to live. Enough. We've had enough war.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Christopher, is that what you're hearing from those around you, those civilians?
STOKES: There's certainly a war weariness, and there's a lot of uncertainty and fear about what tomorrow holds. One of their main concerns,
again, is will they be able to go home, especially for the displaced here, the hundreds of thousands who are piling up in Beirut in very unsanitary,
terrible conditions. They have nothing to do. They're stuck in collective buildings, in schools, in tents on the beach, which is also a concern
because if there's an airstrike, if you're in a tent, then there's no wall to protect you. Really, they're hoping for peace, certainly, but they're
really hoping to be able to go back home.
And the doctors working in the hospitals are also hoping to go back home because many of them now live in these hospitals, as I mentioned, and
barely see their families because it's so dangerous to move in and out of hospitals, especially in the south.
GOLODRYGA: What exactly is needed in terms of aid? We know the WHO is warning of escalating food insecurities. We're seeing prices continue to
rise for a number of reasons. Obviously, we've got conflicts that's impacting the price of commodities and energy and gas and oil. We've seen a
spike in vegetable prices of over 20 percent, bread 17 percent, all of this March, early March, March 2nd, just a few weeks ago. How is that impacting
getting those supplies to you?
STOKES: Well, I can speak to the medical, as a medical organization, what we're seeing on the ground, the general medical situation. For example, I
was in Ghana yesterday, which is not far from the Israeli front line as they're moving forward, and the doctors there, basically, there's no
electricity, so they're running their hospital, their small emergency departments. They've had to close most of the hospital on a generator. Fuel
prices have gone through the roof, so we're going to help them there.
[13:15:00]
It's hard for them even to get oxygen tanks down there because oxygen also presents certain risks. So, the problems are really piling on and
multiplying, and I would say when it comes to the medical system, they're under huge stress. Lebanon has tried to have a generous approach and say
that the displaced and the wounded would get free care, which is good, but these hospitals are already in a really bad economic situation with all the
displaced, et cetera.
So, health care is very much both in danger, also from the direct strikes. Lots of ambulances have been hit. So, it's really quite a catastrophic
situation, particularly in the south, I would say, of the country.
GOLODRYGA: Christopher Stokes, thank you so much for joining the show and painting this stark reality that so many there are now facing. We
appreciate the time.
Well, as diplomacy takes center stage in Washington, the IDF is pushing further into southern Lebanon. Israel says that it expects to take full
control of Bint Jbeil after days engaging in direct fighting with Hezbollah. Israel has previously said that it would establish a so-called
security buffer zone in southern Lebanon until the conflict ends.
For more on what Israel's ultimate strategy here is, I'm joined by Amos Harel from Israel. He's a military analyst for Haaretz and a regular on
this program. Amos, it's good to have you back on. I know you were able to listen to part of that conversation in terms of the destruction there in
southern Lebanon and its impact on civilians, and I know that for those that live in northern Israel, their own stability and safety and being able
to return to their homes is paramount for Israel and their security, too.
My question to you is when you hear about the level and as you report about the level of destruction, the strikes that we just saw last week, a hundred
strikes in just 10 minutes time, Israel continuing to move inland here. Why is this approach by the IDF, why do they think this will be different than
past wars with Hezbollah?
AMOS HAREL, MILITARY CORRESPONDENT AND DEFENSE ANALYST, HAARETZ: It's not only the approach of the IDF, it's the general mood in the country, I would
say. Israelis after October 7th treat security threats differently, and this is what Prime Minister Netanyahu is counting on. The whole attitude is
that Israel is proactive, that Israel takes charge of events and it initiates attacks in order to prevent threats from becoming more dangerous.
The IDF itself, it's under a lot of pressure from the population in the north. You may recall that Israel won the previous round in late 24. There
was a ceasefire achieved after quite a victory over Hezbollah. So, the residents were promised that things would slow down, calm down, and that
they could get back to their homes. Once the second war with Iran began, once Hezbollah resumed launching rockets, the reality proved quite
different.
And then there's also the pressure from the politicians. Netanyahu's government is, as I said, quite hawkish about almost everything, and the
demand from the generals is to make this thing disappear. The army knows one solution, which is apply more pressure, apply more military power in
order to solve things. Unfortunately, it isn't working too well.
On the one hand, there's a lot of suffering. Your previous interview has mentioned that. There's also quite a lot of suffering on the Israeli side.
And on the other hand, Hezbollah is not going to surrender anytime soon. We see Hezbollah willing to fight, although it lost hundreds, if not a
thousand or more of its fighters since the war was resumed.
GOLODRYGA: Right. This was supposed to be a weekend Hezbollah. As you noted, Israel came out the victor of the last war between these two sides,
and yet Hezbollah is still capable of firing rockets into northern Israel.
Amos, this brings me to these historic talks taking place now in Washington, D.C., the first high level direct talks between Israeli
officials and Lebanese officials in some 40 years. Is there an opportunity here for real diplomacy?
HAREL: It's historic. It's significant. I'm not sure that I'd be too hopeful about the results. Again, we both remember that in 1982-'83, a
peace agreement was signed between Israel and the Lebanese government at that time. It was never implemented.
What we have now, of course, is on the one hand, a general willingness on behalf of the government and the military in Beirut to restrain Hezbollah
and perhaps help dismantle some more of its weapons. But yet, Hezbollah remains quite a force politically in Lebanon, and it's quite clear that the
army and the government are afraid of Hezbollah.
[13:20:00]
So, Israel is doing this because this is what President Trump asked Prime Minister Netanyahu to do. There are not too many hopes that this would end
with a diplomatic solution, but a lot of this depends on what goes on in the Gulf. If a ceasefire, a long-term ceasefire is reached in the Gulf,
then we will see Israel restrained in Lebanon as well. Already, apparently, the president told the prime minister to stop bombings in Beirut and in the
Beqaa Valley in Lebanon. Most of the fighting now goes on in southern Lebanon.
I think we see signs that this could end. I'm not sure with a final diplomatic solution, but this could end if the war in Iran stops as well.
But this is a proxy war. In the end, the focus is on the Gulf. And if there is a breakthrough, a diplomatic breakthrough there, then things might calm
down a bit in Lebanon as well.
GOLODRYGA: So, are these direct negotiations, and I'm referencing both those in Washington and perhaps those that will be restarted in Pakistan,
in Islamabad as soon as later this week, are they being directed solely by Washington here? And I'm wondering what the implications are for Israel,
given that they impact two wars that Israel is currently conducting, that with Hezbollah in Lebanon and that with Iran. Is Israel at the table
seriously or no?
HAREL: Not so much. I think what we see here now is diminishing Israeli influence over what happens. You're familiar, of course, with the New York
Times story last week about Netanyahu influencing the Trump decision. They met in February 11th of this year at the White House, and it was evidently
the prime minister who persuaded the president to go forward with the plan to attack Iran. There were also a lot of hopes about Israel and
specifically Mossad delivering more of an attempt of a regime change in Iran. As we know, this didn't work out so well.
But at that time, Netanyahu was extremely influential over Trump decisions. I'm not sure that this is the situation right now. Israel by now is a sort
of a subcontractor for the Americans regarding strikes in Iran. It fights its own war in Lebanon. But I think that most of the decisions will be
taken in Washington at the White House and not so much at the prime minister's office in Jerusalem.
GOLODRYGA: And we heard the prime minister just yesterday say that he speaks with J.D. Vance. J.D. Vance had been calling him and relaying every
single update of these negotiations. I'm just wondering how much of that was posturing for his domestic audience at home versus really believing
that both the United States and Israel's priorities are being addressed in these talks.
The U.S. apparently is offering a 20-year period of no enrichment and Iran came back with five years. But even getting there, it shows that
negotiations are happening. Is Israel on board with some middle ground that they could potentially agree to?
HAREL: I'm sure he's getting the updates. Netanyahu talks to Vance. He talks constantly to President Trump and especially the people around him
like Jared Kushner or Steve Witkoff. But on the other hand, I'm not so sure that the Israeli position is considered at this moment.
It's quite evident from here, A, that the prime minister wants the war to be resumed. This is all we -- all the leaks we're getting from Jerusalem
are that the war should at one point continue. And on the other hand, that he's not making the decisions anymore, that it's about American interests
first and foremost. We'll have to see how this evolves.
But, of course, Israel would like the attitude towards the Iranian to be as hawkish as possible and would like the Americans to make strict demands of
Iran regarding any kind of long-term solution, most specifically regarding the nuclear plan, but also about ballistic missiles. And Netanyahu, you
mentioned posturing earlier. Netanyahu is having a very hard time bridging this gap because what he promised to the Israeli people is quite far from
what he actually achieved.
The first day the war broke on February 28th, he briefed journalists that this is about regime change and this is about destruction of the two main
threats from Iran, the nuclear project and the ballistic missile plan. Now, all of these things have not been achieved yet. What we have now is a
ceasefire, quite a lot of damage, of course, created in Iran, but this hasn't destroyed the Iranian regime and it hasn't defeated Iran, contrary
to what Netanyahu promised Trump to do a few weeks before the war started.
[13:25:00]
GOLODRYGA: And that's starting to be reflected in polling as well. Nadav Eyal actually highlighted a brutal new INSS poll that showed only 31
percent of Israelis believe the Iranian regime was significantly harmed and nearly three-quarters, three-quarters expect to be back at war within a
year's time. Trust in the government is sitting at 30 percent.
Amos, you know, I don't have to tell you about what life has been like for Israelis the past month, the past three years, actually, constantly in and
out of bomb shelters, constantly at war. Israel has long been described as being tactically strong, strategically weak.
Do Israelis feel after three years of war that they are in a safer position right now? What is the mood like after October 7th with this new doctrine,
as you noted, of being more proactive in targeting and striking potential attacks ahead of time? Do Israelis feel that they're safer?
HAREL: So, the polls you've mentioned, the mistrust is quite clear. People do not trust the government and people are having a hard time believing
that the government is achieving what it claims it has achieved already. This hasn't been translated into political loss to Netanyahu. According to
the polls, we're quite steady. The opposition is leading in the polls, but it doesn't seem to be a decisive victory. And, of course, the elections are
supposed to be held for the next Knesset in late October of this year.
When we talk about strategic wins, then, again, it's hard for the government right now to explain its position. What we hear from Netanyahu's
mouthpieces, and as you know, he's very good at political campaigns and he's very good at operating a political spin. But what we hear from them is
that these are great times for Israel. Netanyahu is constantly mentioning that he created three security zones, one in Gaza, one in the Golan Heights
on the Syrian side, and one in Lebanon.
He's actually, according to him, widening the borders of Israel for the first time since the six-day war of 1967. And he's also announced that
Israel is now not only a regional power, but, quote/unquote, "almost a world superpower."
' Now, does Netanyahu himself believe that? The people around him keep mentioning that. But I'm not so sure that Israelis are convinced,
especially as we go up and down those stairs to the bomb shelters constantly. It's hard to believe that we've won this as the war goes on, at
least with Lebanon. And we still don't know, of course, what would happen with Iran.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. Perhaps he views Israel as a superpower, but you know how Israel is viewed by a number of other Western countries. They have
consistently been criticizing how Israel has conducted itself. And I guess the biggest concern now is Israel's relationship going forward with the
United States and Washington in particular. Amos Harel, thank you so much. Always good to see you.
HAREL: Thank you, Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: And do stay with CNN. We'll be right back after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: All right. Next to a still-raging war with far less global attention. This week marks three years of brutal civil war in Sudan with
staggering levels of bloodshed. At least 150,000 people have been killed and 33 million are in need of assistance there with harrowing reports of
sexual violence and the killing of children.
[13:30:00]
Hunger, displacement, and death are now the daily reality in Sudan. In an article for the Financial Times, Sudanese entrepreneur and philanthropist
Mo Ibrahim warns that what happens in Sudan will not stay in Sudan. He joins me now from Monaco.
Mo Ibrahim, thank you so much for joining the program. As we've noted in coverage of this week's program, so many years into it, the numbers are
staggering. 14 million displaced, 4 million sheltering abroad. Beyond just those headlines, we like to begin by asking all of our guests, what is the
current reality on the ground right now for civilians?
MO IBRAHIM, FOUNDER AND CHAIR, MO IBRAHIM FOUNDATION: For civilians, I mean, it is harrowing. The two fighting groups, RSF and the Sudanese army--
and the RSF and the Sudanese army are both controlling most of the country, but there is a lot of other militias which also control other parts. It's
becoming a lawless land, actually. The fragmentation of the country is a reality now.
It's terrible. And food shortage, lack of health care, disease, etc. Sexual violence prevailing. It's a nightmare.
GOLODRYGA: A nightmare. And you depict that so thoughtfully and poignantly in your piece for the FT. And as you noted, what happens in Sudan will not
stay in Sudan. With so many fragile neighbors there in the Horn of Africa, what are the immediate risks of regional -- of this spreading throughout
the region?
IBRAHIM: Yes. Sudan shares borders with seven other countries. Most of these countries are already fragile countries. And the problem also is that
some of these countries support one side or the other side, logistics, arms, et cetera. And the situation in Sudan can undermine what is going on
around us.
Take, for example, Eritrea and Egypt. Both are our neighbors. They support the army. Ethiopia, which is not really in good terms with Eritrea or
Egypt, of course, is pushed to support the RSF. It's maybe also got borders with us. You can end up with a proxy war there between all those people.
And there is also much danger beyond our own neighbors. If you just look at the map, you will see an incredible, huge arc of lawless lands,
ungovernable spaces extend through the Sahel from the Atlantic to the Red Sea. And this is a huge problem, not only for Africa, it's also for Europe,
because this is like -- as I said, like Afghanistan and Syria together as a doorstep of Europe. This is a major problem for everybody.
GOLODRYGA: And we're looking at a map right now, and you see the contagion that is quite possible, and you see the fact that it is so near one of the
other hot spots in the world, one of the hot wars going on right now, and that is the war in Iran and the impact that this is having on global energy
markets, prices on everything from oil, gas, and commodities. Fertilizer also being impacted. Just talk about how that then trickles into this
conflict and making it that much more difficult to get humanitarian aid on the ground.
IBRAHIM: Right. I mean, you have -- Sudan have a very long shore on the Red Sea. The Red Sea now is acquiring a heightened strategic importance,
given what is happening in the Gulf. And it is appropriate because the safety of navigation will be threatened.
But then you have also the migration threat. If you remember, 1 million refugees almost undermined the government of Chancellor Merkel in Germany,
and that was Syria.
[13:35:00]
Now, you have much more than that next door, really, and that can undermine many democratic rules in Europe. So, you have the migration problem, you
have the navigation, freedom of navigation problem, and of course you have the humanitarian crisis.
GOLODRYGA: And you have countries like UAE --
IBRAHIM: Sorry. Go ahead.
GOLODRYGA: I was going to say, you have countries like UAE, Iran, Turkey, only fueling the problem more, and you've called international mediation
efforts half-hearted. Why do you think that more isn't being done on a collective level to bring this brutal war, this genocide, to an end?
IBRAHIM: The problem is that a number of countries, neighbors and a little bit further, are supporting one side or another, looking for some narrow
strategic interests in the aftermath if the side wins the war. It's a very narrow and stupid approach, and what happens is a flow of arms. Who's
feeding this war? It is that flow of arms, bullets, and, you know, logistics, et cetera, drones. And who's doing that? There are seven or
eight countries. You have Iran, you have Turkey, you have the Emirates, you have Egypt. It's just too many people involved there, and they're
supporting this side or that side.
So, we don't have a consensus, and we need to get over that. We need to really stop all supply of weapons, drones, et cetera, to the combatants.
Otherwise, this war will continue raging on, and I hope that U.S. can just pay some attention to what's going on there.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, you say we welcome your affection, but not your bullets and drones. Your foundation's African Leaders Prize, awarded for
exceptional democratic governance, hasn't been given out for five years. Does that reflect sort of the broader crisis of democratic leadership in
this moment?
IBRAHIM: In a way, it is, because we have been witnessing some deterioration in the governance and in democracy. There is a democracy
recession in Africa. We see different presidents now changing constitutions, staying for third or fourth term. So, you've seen people at
90 years old starting a sixth or seventh term. The space is shrinking for civil society.
So, Africa is not a good place, unfortunately. So, yes, we have been unable to give the prize, but it is not our fault, really. It is some other
people's fault.
GOLODRYGA: Well, your voice is so important now during this time of crisis, watching your country literally being torn apart. You continue to
speak out, and that is so vital. And we are grateful for your time. Thank you, Mo Ibrahim.
IBRAHIM: Thank you. Thank you, Bianna.
GOLODRYGA: And we'll be right back after this short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:40:00]
GOLODRYGA: Next, "Who Needs Friends." That's the title and subject of Andrew -- actor Andrew McCarthy's new book exploring male loneliness in
America. As a member of the infamous Brat Pack of young actors from the 1980s, he starred in iconic films such as "Pretty in Pink," one of my
favorites, and the coming-of-age melodrama "St. Elmo's Fire."
Now, he's taken a 10,000-mile road trip across 22 states to reconnect with old friends, and he tells Hari Sreenivasan what he learned about human
connection along the way.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HARI SREENIVASAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Bianna, thanks. Andrew McCarthy, thanks so much for joining us. You have a new book out called
"Who Needs Friends: An Unscientific Examination of Male Friendships Across America." In the beginning of the book, you say that this sort of started
with maybe a snarky question from your older son who was basically asking you, you don't really have any friends, do you, Dad? I mean, it's powerful
what kids can do to us, but what did that trigger for you?
ANDREW MCCARTHY, AUTHOR, "WHO NEEDS FRIENDS": Well, yes, we were sitting at the kitchen table. He was telling me a funny story about one of his
friends, and then he finished his story and looked up and just said exactly that. You don't really have any friends, do you, Dad?
And it didn't -- I don't think he meant it too snarky. He was just speaking truth as far as he knew it, the way our kids do to us, you know?
SREENIVASAN: Yes.
MCCARTHY: Constantly keep us humble and/or humiliated. And it just got me thinking and stayed with me. I said to him, I said, Sammy, yes, you know, I
do have friends. I just don't see them, but I know they're there, and that's enough. And he kind of went, OK. And -- but that comment stayed with
me, and a couple days later, I just said out loud to the empty kitchen, I said, you know what? It's not enough. I need to go see my friends.
And I'm like many guys, I think, who -- when I was left home at 17, came to the city and had this sort of core group of guys who became my chosen
family. And, you know, they largely became responsible for me becoming who I've become. And through life and jobs and families, whatever, they
scattered across the country. And I hadn't seen any of them in years, some of them in decades. And so, yes, my sudden sort of comment made me go, I
need to see these dudes.
SREENIVASAN: So, this launched what turned out to be a 22-state, 10,000- mile road trip that was kind of zigging and zagging. You write in the book when you were taking this tour, what had actually happened to my
friendships? Were they still there, as I claimed? Did I even want them or need them? What did I get from them anyway? What did I have to offer them?
How did friendship affect my place in the world? What did I value? What mattered? Those are all really big questions. What did you find?
MCCARTHY: Yes. I mean, I have to say, I drove 10,000 miles because I hate highway driving. I'm terrified of crossing, like, on the highway. So, I
just drove back roads the entire country, which was an amazing thing to rediscover America like that again.
But I also, what I found really interesting was I started talking to men as I went. I started talking to random men I would approach in gas stations or
on the street or in motel lobbies or something, and I started talking to them about their friendships. So, besides just reconnecting with my old
friends, I started talking to men of all walks of life, cops and blues musicians and oil rig workers and all sorts of guys.
And it was amazing because although all of them looked at me like I was insane when I first kind of walked up to them and said, will you talk to me
about your friends? You know, they kind of said, huh? But then not a single guy refused to talk to me. They were all, and invariably everybody pretty
much said, I've never talked about this before. I never talk about this stuff. So, it's fascinating to talk about.
So, I had amazing conversations with men who were very open to me all across the country. And, you know, I found a lot of loneliness, a lot of
isolation. I also found a lot of deep sort of connection and fellowship between men. And it's a topic that we don't deal with. I guess the biggest
thing I found is a topic that we just don't deal with very much and to our own detriment.
SREENIVASAN: The juxtaposition throughout the book of how many men and some women all know this, that we don't deal with this well. In fact, they
even point out, oh, my wife, my girlfriend. Oh, she's got great friends. She's really connected. And you're just like, wait, what's the gap here?
Why is that gap where when we can see how healthy relationships are nurtured and formed and how people communicate, what were the reasons that
you found that people, men, weren't?
MCCARTHY: You're right. You say a lot of guys I met said, yes, my wife is my best friend, but I'm not hers. A lot, right? And a lot of guys let their
wives, you know, schedule all their social life. But I think guys, it comes down to -- you know, they're cliches, but I think it's true that men have a
fear of sort of admitting vulnerability because vulnerability can be misconstrued somehow as weakness.
And the one thing a man can't be in our culture today is weak, right? And manhood has sort of evolved since sort of post-World War II. John Wayne
(ph), a man in America, certainly, has become someone who's stoic, hard, pull your hat down, carry your own water, just shut up and get it done and
bring it on. You know, and that's not always the way it used to be with friendship and with men in America.
[13:45:00]
Back in the 19th century, you know, Abraham Lincoln and Joshua Speed were dear friends. You know, there's lots of examples of men writing these
profuse affectionate letters to each other. There's a lot of physical affection.
You know, so the idea of friendship in America changed in men, changed somewhere in the last hundred years to a really sort of narrow focus, and I
think to our detriment, because I think it's just very isolating.
SREENIVASAN: You know, all the kind of longevity research points to the fact of how important social connection is. And there are groups of men who
are getting together, whether it's in a formalized setting or informal, they're actually practicing this thing that now is being advocated, which
is that you should have connections and relationships and feel useful and purposeful. And so, many of the places that you describe, it's like this
was now part of their schedule, part of their ritual of life.
MCCARTHY: Yes. I mean, absolutely. One of the statistics I talk about in the book is Harvard just recently concluded an 85-year study saying the
single most important thing needed for a longer, healthier, happier life is not a good job or physical health but a connection to community, you know.
And everywhere I went, I would often hang out in -- I'd go to these small towns and local diners in the morning, and I just -- breakfast is the most
optimistic meal of the day in America. And just you go hang out in a diner and you park yourself there for a while and you'll see the whole world go
by. There was one place in Elkins, West Virginia I went, and it was a diner. And in the center of the room, there was this table of about six,
eight guys, eight to ten guys, actually. And it was the big table in the middle of the room, and it was just older guys with their mesh caps on and
their Carhartt jackets, and they're just sitting there. And one would get up and another guy would come fill his spot.
And I asked the people sitting next -- I was watching them, fascinated, and I asked the people at the next table, I said, is that the Brain Trust over
there? And the lady said to me, she goes, yes, well, they'd like to think so. And -- but then she did exactly what you're speaking to. She goes, at
least they've got each other. And I think that's exactly it. You know, they just come and these guys are going to see each other tomorrow and tomorrow
and tomorrow. They just have a place to go and connect with and not feel so isolated. And I think there's just so much isolation.
You know, I asked pretty much everybody, every man I met along the way, I said, do you ever feel lonely? And young guys were very quick to kind of
go, yes, yes, I'm lonely a lot. And older guys would invariably say, no, no, no, too busy, never feel lonely.
SREENIVASAN: Yes.
MCCARTHY: And I know when I answer that quick and that sharp, it's either something I'm afraid of or I'm lying. And -- but again, I think the
admission of loneliness is tantamount to admitting weakness. You know, so, people just pull back on that, and then that keeps us further isolated. I
think it's pretty simple. And yet, it's something that's so prevalent and something we have fallen prey to, you know.
SREENIVASAN: You know, the inverse is also true, that loneliness is so bad for your health, right? I mean, you point out statistics that say it's
basically worse than smoking a pack of cigarettes a day. And as you mentioned, it says there was a study, it was 2021 State of the American
Friendship Report, only 27 percent of men said they had six or more close friends and 15 percent said they had none.
MCCARTHY: No close friends at all. Yes, that's up from 3 percent in 1990. So, I mean, we're going the wrong direction for sure. And yes, there's
also, you know, 50 percent risk increase of dementia for people that are isolated and lonely. I think a 38 percent risk of increase of heart
disease.
So, it's not just like, oh, loneliness is sad. It's like, no, it's physically affecting our health. And like you alluded to, it's equivalent
to, I think, 15 cigarettes a day and six alcoholic drinks a day. So, I mean, it's really something that, you know, we ought to be addressing
besides just feeling sort of bad about it.
SREENIVASAN: Our audience might -- depending on their age, might not remember the movies that you were in and you were called part of this club
called the Brat Pack in the '80s. And you had kind of your own struggles with fame and that you weren't really ready. It was sort of thrust upon
you. And then you write about the fact that you actively kind of withdrew and it might've also contributed to, you know, alcoholism and kind of
different stages of your life that were difficult.
What would you kind of tell yourself maybe at that point in your life about friendships and how important they would be 40 years from now?
MCCARTHY: You know, you alluded to being in the Brat Pack and all that stuff and those -- that time in life. And it was kind of a wondrous sort of
exciting time, but I did feel sort of very overwhelmed. And had I known -- you know, I retreated very much from that because I'm a fairly introverted
person in certain ways. So, had I sort of latched on to my peeps in a stronger way, I think I might have navigated through that easier because
it's just good to get out of our heads. You know, there's a lot of nonsense that goes on up there when we don't sort of blow it off. You know, you need
a friend to kind of go, hey, wait a minute, dude, what are you thinking?
I was on the trip and I, my wife said, how's Matthew? I reconnected with my buddy in Kentucky. She said, how's Matthew? I said, he's great, he's great.
I said, what are you doing? I said, ah, just stupid stuff. And she said, that's good. You need to do more stupid stuff. I go, sweetheart, I think I
do a lot of stupid stuff. And she said, yes, but you need to do the stupid stuff so you don't do the really stupid stuff. I really understood what
that meant, you know. I think we just need to sort of connect.
[13:50:00]
I think it's whether male or female, although women seem to be much better at it in many ways than men. I think guys tend to be -- you know, I heard a
line, I've stolen it, that women make friends face to face, guys make friends shoulder to shoulder. You know, I think there's something in that
with guys.
You know, I met a bunch of men from the military and stuff along my way. And they all talk about how, you know, obviously that's a very bonding
experience for guys. And I think that's really true, that often with guys, we need to be sort of engaged in kind of an activity. I met one guy along
the way. He said he had a real hard time telling his daughter, his teenage daughter, that he loved her. But he thought nothing of jumping in the car
and driving her eight hours back to college. You know what I mean? The action is demonstration of love for guys, I think, in a very real way. We
feel safe in that. We know how to find ourselves in action.
SREENIVASAN: Yes, there's a passage you have with, I can't remember. I think it's Marfa, Texas, where he talks about getting the truck friends.
You know, like the guys who just get in the truck and drive, no questions asked, if you ever. And most men are like that. We value loyalty a
tremendous amount. It's like, who's really going to have my back for me?
You have a quote from Epicurus. It's not so much our friends help that helps us as the confident knowledge that they will help us. We really -- we
value that so much that we're like, well, the smallest, I mean, you know, we kind of minimize the actual maintenance of that relationship and the
words that go into it.
MCCARTHY: Yes, absolutely. I think it's one of the things I sort of, why my friendship sort of slipped away because I just knew, and I didn't know,
even if I hadn't seen him in a decade, I call up Ed and go, dude, I need help. He's there. You know what I mean?
But the active managing and involvement in friendship, it does something different too, besides that sort of getting the truck quality. As I drove
across America and meeting all these guys and reuniting with my friends, I felt sort of like this emotional safety net spread out underneath me in a
certain way, in a way that I didn't realize I'd been missing all these years.
I feel like many guys feel this great obligation to provide in life, whether it comes from the caveman and bringing the saber-tooth tiger back
into the cave or what, this notion that we need to provide. That's what we do. And I think a lot of men's self-esteem rises and falls on the degree to
which we feel we're providing well, you know?
And I have talked about this with my wife and she'll go, oh, sweetheart, we're in this together. You know, and she's absolutely right and
everything. But I mentioned it to my guy friends and they just go, I said, do you ever feel this? And they're like, oh yes, of course. It's like the
biggest thing in my life.
So, just that sort of -- without talking about it any further, just that identification and understanding of that, you know, it's not that that
supports better than my wife's. It just, as my kids say, it just hits different. You know what I mean? And so, I think we need both those kinds
of things.
SREENIVASAN: Throughout the story, you're kind of one of those get-in-the- truck kind of friends for a friend of yours, Sebi (ph). And, you know, you get to his apartment in Baltimore and you haven't seen him in years and
describe what was happening. What did you not know?
MCCARTHY: Well, Sebi (ph), my friend Sebi (ph) had a terrible back pain. It's stenosis and narrowing of the spine. So, he had to have a massive --
you know, one of those eight hour back operations and it just didn't work. And so, he -- this wildly extroverted guy had become largely a shut-in just
because he physically wasn't able to maneuver.
And I walked in and I -- you know, he canceled on me a few times. And I was maybe being melodramatic to myself, but I thought, I don't want the next
time I see my friend to be at his funeral. I'm going to his house. So, I just got in the car and I just drove to his house and just knocked on his
door unannounced. And, you know, he opened the door and went, dude, in that way that guys do, that dude contained a lot of ominous things in it.
And anyway, his apartment was largely cluttered with all these Amazon delivery boxes and things. And like really cluttered, like there was no
room for anything else. And it was just in that instant, I realized, wow, his world has become very small.
But I also thought instantly that these sort of -- all these boxes, I'm like, what is this? And that it was really sort of an act of hope, like
clicking buy now for all these little things where just like, when my life gets back on its feet, I'm going to need all this stuff, you know what I
mean? So -- but again, he had just gotten isolated through the course of life. Stuff happens to all of us in life. We have our moments, you know?
And he just needed, and I just showed up.
You know, I learned a lot on the trip, but the thing I learned the most of anything was just, you know, that cliche, 90 percent of life is showing up,
just go up. You know, I didn't do anything right on this trip. I'm no expert on friendship. I'm no expert on any of this stuff. All I know is I
showed up. I got in the car and I drove and I went to see him.
You know, and there's something Aristotle talks about, the three levels of friendship. And the deepest level, what he called a perfect friendship is
two friends, you know, two friends are improved by the relationship and they are able also to name the importance of the relationship to each
other.
You know, I'd show up at my friend's house and he'd say, you drove all this way to see me? And I was like, dude, you know what? You're important in my
life. You mean a lot to me. And I just needed to come see you. And we were able to reciprocate that. You know, when we were younger, we probably never
would have said that to each other.
[13:55:00]
SREENIVASAN: Author and actor, Andrew McCarthy, the book is called, "Who Needs Friends: An Unscientific Examination of Male Friendships Across
America." Thanks so much for your time.
MCCARTHY: No, thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: And finally, for us, the pride flag will officially fly again at the Stonewall National Monument. The Trump administration agreed in a
court settlement Monday. It was removed earlier this year on a government directive and hundreds took to the street to protest. A group of non-
profits also fought back, filing a lawsuit saying the removal violated federal law. The monument celebrates the Stonewall Inn, an iconic Manhattan
bar considered the birthplace of the modern LGBTQ rights movement in America. An important day for them.
Well, that is it for now. Thank you so much. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And
remember, you can always catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media. Thanks so much for watching, and goodbye from New York.
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[14:00:00]
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