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Amanpour

Interview with Governor Mikie Sherrill (D-NJ); Interview with Actor Anthony Hopkins; Interview with "From Presence to Power" Author Rashad Robinson. Aired 1-2p ET

Aired July 17, 2026 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:00]

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.

The eyes of the world turn to New Jersey for the final of the World Cup on Sunday. But beyond the excitement, America's divisions are showing in stark

relief. New Jersey Governor Mikie Sherrill joins me.

Then --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTHONY HOPKINS, ACTOR: I wanted to be a musician, I wanted to be a pianist and a composer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: -- realizing your dreams at age 88, ahead of the release of his debut classical album, a look back at my interview with the award-winning

actor, Anthony Hopkins.

Plus --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RASHAD ROBINSON, AUTHOR, "FROM PRESENCE TO POWER": If we push in this direction and we push in that direction, we can pass policies. We can make

society more fair and more equitable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: -- transforming public support into victories that last. Rashad Robinson, one of America's top social justice strategists, tells Michel

Martin what he's learned through his years spent fighting for change.

Welcome to the program everyone, I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.

This weekend, the U.S. hosts the hotly anticipated World Cup final between the defending champions Argentina and Spain. It's the end of a tournament

that's tested the game's norms and brought millions of visitors from around the world.

At the same time though, a swell of discontent has been sweeping America. Federal agents have killed two people in Maine and Texas as Trump's

immigration crackdown ratchets back up. And Trump himself is again taking aim at America's electoral checks and balances as the midterms approach.

So, in the face of mounting public anger and with Trump's approval rating at near record lows, can Democrats seize the day? This week, the answer

seemed to be a resounding no, as Democratic candidate, Graham Platner, pulled out of the Maine Senate race amid a raft of scandals. It's another

badly timed misstep which could have dire consequences.

Uniquely placed to discuss all of this is Mikie Sherrill, the Democratic governor of New Jersey, whose state is hosting this weekend's FIFA World

Cup final. We spoke when she told me about her expectations ahead of the game.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Governor Mikie Sherrill, welcome to our program. Let's just start by what's bound to be a joyous occasion, the final of that global

cultural phenomenon, the World Cup, happening in your state this Sunday. What do you expect? How has it been, the whole World Cup, for states like

yours?

GOV. MIKIE SHERRILL (D-NJ): Well, this will be our eighth World Cup game and it has been really fantastic. It's been an honor. We've had Norwegians

rowing. We've had the Brazilian community out in force. It just has been a wonderful event.

I often say we have people from every corner of the globe here in New Jersey. So, welcoming the world to New Jersey, some people have compared it

to having your cousins over and your mom lets you stay up late. We've opened the bars and restaurants late. And it's really been an amazing

experience.

AMANPOUR: Can I ask you, because, you know, a lot of the sort of difficult circumstances in the run up led a lot of foreigners to sort of cancel their

plans. And some states and cities are saying it's not been quite the financial boon they expected. Can you tell me about have you reaped the

financial benefits from this onslaught of fans?

SHERRILL: That has been my goal from day one. So, we, of course, came in in January. That's when I started my administration. And we took a deep

dive into the economics of this World Cup. And at the time, it didn't look very good. So, we built 34 fan zones across the state.

So, small businesses can come out and make some money. We've had about 5,000 people plus at some of our fan zones. We've done it across the state

because, as you might remember, at the northern part of our state we're hosting at MetLife Stadium, but Philly's hosting down in the southern part

of our state or was hosting. So, we have these games, and we've been able to take advantage of it throughout the state.

VRBOs, Airbnbs are up tremendously. People are -- you know, individuals are making a lot of money. And we're still charting out some of the hotels and

how they're doing. And we're really taking a deep dive economically to see if you can make this work for a state like ours. It's very, very difficult.

It takes a lot of work.

And I will tell you, working with FIFA has not been the most pleasant experience. They -- you know, for an organization that intends to make $11

billion off of this event, they're not a good partner. You could see a world where they could have really engaged and grown U.S. soccer in a

tremendous way, building FIFA fields across the nation. Instead, they've chosen to just really kind of line their pockets, and really at the

expense, I think, of a lot of fans.

[13:05:00]

AMANPOUR: Gosh, I mean, that's quite a sort of a dressing down of FIFA. And there have been many, many complaints, I know, including you said that

you were angry that FIFA had upped the transportation costs and that you were not going to allow New Jersey taxpayers to foot that bill.

SHERRILL: We had agreed to move people at cost, which was $150 a ticket on the train. Just that's how much it was going to cost us to move people. And

we really -- you know, we wanted to make sure that we were making the most of it. I think, you know, we can work on this so we can get people in and

out of the stadium quickly, efficiently and, you know, cheaply. Unfortunately, they basically did not want to engage. So, what we did is we

went out to corporate partners.

Because at the end of the day, this should not be the taxpayers of New Jersey that are paying to move people to and from a game. I will tell

everyone who's not familiar with MetLife Stadium, nobody has ever given a design award. It's never been seen as a beautiful stadium. But inside that

stadium right now, it's one of our largest.

I've had all of our visitors say just how beautiful it is. About 80,000 fans. Many times you come in and you have, you know, the zone with one side

with colors and the other colors. And the tremendous energy inside that stadium has been wonderful.

The energy that our guests have brought across the state has been amazing. This is sort of the first time in a long time I think people remember why

it's so awesome to be part of the world community. That we have so much in common. And it's been wonderful for New Jersey to really welcome the world.

AMANPOUR: And certainly, sitting here in the U.K., all these ripples have gone out from your state, your nation, around the world as well. But let me

ask you about energy of a different sort, and that is in the Democratic Party itself. Democrats have spent all this time trying to build a path

back after the last presidential election.

You won in a politically divided state. You ran a moderate campaign focused on affordability issues. Do you think that is a template that other

Democrats could use and follow?

SHERRILL: I've had this conversation with so many people. You know, I think they're -- I think in the press often and insiders, they always want

to chart out where people fall on a political spectrum and how we're going to win, et cetera. And I keep saying over and over, for most voters, they

don't say here's the political spectrum. I fall here, here, here. They have issues they care about.

And what they want to hear from people running for office is that you get their issues and that you're going to address them immediately. Not write a

10-year plan, not write a strongly worded letter. They want to see real results. They want to see fighters. They want to see somebody who's going

to address the many, many challenges this nation has. So, that's what I did.

Not only did I run that campaign with those commitments, but then got into office, and on day one, in the middle of my inaugural address, I stopped. I

signed orders so that we declared a state of emergency on utility costs, froze rate hikes. And with the work we've done on solar, on battery

storage, on nuclear, and the, you know, charting out on how we're going to handle data centers and putting guardrails in place, we have now, according

to an independent study, saved the people of New Jersey about a billion dollars already. And we're just getting started.

AMANPOUR: Well, I mean, look, that really does sound like a great record. But when you talk about, you know, labels and divisions and this and that,

you just saw what happened in Maine, where somebody, you know, Graham Platner, who was viewed as, well, is a progressive and won handily in his

primary against a much more established candidate, he won handily. And most people say, apparently, even a good load of moderates, that they liked his

policies, but it was the person who hadn't been apparently properly vetted or didn't have enough experience that came crashing down.

What do you have to say about that? Is that an indictment of progressive agenda or is it a complete, you know, mistake in terms of pushing an

unexperienced -- inexperienced candidate who hadn't been properly vetted? How do you assess what happened there?

SHERRILL: I think as far as the policies and what people were hearing, I think it's an indictment of the fact that for too long we haven't seen a

strong enough plan and strategy to take on the challenges of this nation and the Democratic Party. We continue to see rights and freedoms being

eroded, affordability issues across the country.

And here, we are the party that fights for working people, that fights for middle-class families. And middle-class families have been losing out in

the economy that we've seen. And so, what people across the country want to see are new ideas. They want to see somebody addressing their key concerns

and how you're going to fight back and how you're going to carry that forward.

[13:10:00]

And so, on one hand, I think what we're seeing is a whole new generation of leaders who are coming forward from all parts of the party, from all

different areas, saying I've got new ideas. I'm going to address this differently. I'm not going to wait for permission. I'm not going to wait

for 20 studies on whether or not it's politically tested. I'm moving forward and I'm addressing the key issues of the people that I serve. And

that's critically important.

On the other side, you're exactly right. We can't just have these, you know, people that that have good social media profiles. You have to vet

them. You have to be a person of character. You have to be someone that's going to be fighting for the right people and can credibly say, look, I've

got your back and here's my record. And here's why you can trust me to do what I say I'm going to do.

AMANPOUR: You know, I hear all that. But let's take next door. And that is the mayor of New York, Zohran Mamdani. He was not politically part of the

establishment, but he, you know, is the Democratic Socialist of America. And he ran on the same issues that you did, affordability, but has a

slightly different spectrum of views on that issue. And he seems to be doing well, despite the fact that he was also inexperienced. It is a very

interesting moment right now.

How do you think Michigan is going to do? They have an election coming up, a primary in the Democratic Party between a populist and an established,

more established moderate. How do you think that's going to end up and what signal will that send? Because Mamdani, when he endorsed a load of left,

you know, more leftist, more progressives, they all won.

SHERRILL: I think, again, when people see someone who they feel is a fighter. I just heard, you know, an endorsement of a candidate saying, this

is the person that's going to fight. I hear that over and over and over again.

So, again, I think, you know, when we had a six-way primary here in New Jersey, we had people from every part of the political spectrum. And it

really was, I think, this this campaign we built to say we were going to take on entrenched interests. We were going to take on people who

historically had controlled the politics of New Jersey, had controlled what you were able to vote on or not vote on. And I was going to stand

independently and take that on.

And I myself, you know, I've said I don't feel comfortable with any label. I don't feel comfortable in the moderate wing of the party because that

does -- that to me represents a wing of the party that has not done enough to make change and ensure that we have a good place forward, a good

strategy going forward for middle-class families. I don't feel comfortable in the far-left of the party because some of the things they say are

contrary to the things I fought for in the military, on the House Armed Services Committee, at the U.S. attorney's office my whole life.

And so, what I have is an independent vision in many cases, but based on those Democratic values, and I mean the Democratic Party and Democratic

values of fighting for working people, making sure everybody has a seat at the table.

Right now, we have a president of the United States who is making it so it's just himself and his cronies who are lining their pockets with

billions of dollars while working people see their gas prices go up because of Iran, their grocery store prices going up because of Trump's illegal

tariff regime, who see ICE agents on the street killing people because he's forming the secret police state with no accountability.

At every turn, you're seeing somebody in power that is so contrary to our American values, we are building out a party that's taking on new ideas.

And we're going to implement ideas that are going to make sure that middle- class families have opportunity and a path forward.

AMANPOUR: You talked about the war on Iran and that Americans do not want another one of these wars, and Trump himself has found his polls dropping

because of it, including because of the affordability issue that you and others talk about.

Do you think now President Trump is on the way to his own forever war? You were in the Navy, you were a Navy pilot, I believe, and you have -- you

know, you have the credentials. Is he about to land America into another forever war?

SHERRILL: We are right in the middle of one of the most inexplicable wars that we've conducted. And we certainly don't have a clean record in making

good choices all the time. But right now, the president can't even -- couldn't even say at the beginning of this why he was going to war. He made

some -- you know, he's had some discussions of getting rid of the nuclear program in Iran, getting rid of their missile program, having regime

change. None of that's happened.

I guess you could say he did make sure we had regime change, but unfortunately, changing to a regime that is more extremist and more anti-

American than the one that was in place. He set back the idea of the grassroots campaign for democracy in Iran by decades. He has done so much

harm in the region, it's hard to calculate. Not to mention is costing the United States hundreds of billions of dollars.

[13:15:00]

Much of our infrastructure in the region has been bombed. High end bases that will be very costly to rebuild. We've gone through munitions at a

rapid rate that we'll have to replenish. The -- taking care of veterans from this war will cost us a lot of money. Again and again and again, you

turn to these huge costs going up.

So, now you see the administration asking for $1.5 trillion for the defense budget, when they have cut funding for innovation, cut funding for quality

and affordable health care, cut funding for education. I mean, at every turn, they are cutting back on the things that really puts us in such a

solid place for middle-class families, that can grow the jobs of the future, as we're going through tremendous changes with A.I. At every turn,

they are making decisions that are harming American families.

And at the same time, I can't say it enough, Trump is making billions and billions of dollars through his self-dealing.

AMANPOUR: As a former lieutenant in the Navy, I'm sure you -- and you were on the Armed Services Committee. You're very concerned about America's

military posture, its readiness, its strength. That is what Pete Hegseth says that he is trying to ramp up, to get the force fighting fit, to make

sure, as he says, people are promoted due to their abilities and not any other reasons.

What do you make of what he has done so far in terms of has it strengthened the U.S. military? And, of course, the latest is that he's saying that he's

going to -- let me just get this absolutely straight. He is going to recommend tests for testosterone deficiency amongst troops.

SHERRILL: Pete Hegseth is the most incompetent secretary of defense this nation has ever had. He is somebody that what failed at every job he had

coming into leading our military and now is failing at that job tremendously, in every single way, by every single measure, not the least

of which is getting us into a war that we can't seem to get out of while costing American lives billions of dollars and really has no agenda or

strategy, simply has made us less safe.

So, at this point, he needs to be impeached. He needs to be removed from office because he's dangerous, because he's taking our fighting force,

which has been the pride of America, a fighting force I served in, which I was very proud to serve in because it was so professional, because we

upheld some of the highest standards of humanitarian law in the Geneva Conventions. And now, we've seen that eroded year over year over year.

Part of the reason I got out of the military was because I wanted to go into law. I went to law school because of my concerns about torture and

rendition that were undermining our military. And Pete Hegseth goes so far beyond some of these things, you know, giving awards to war criminals,

saying that war crimes aren't crimes, suggesting that women and black people can't serve.

If he really wants to have the strongest fighting force with the most capable people, then he wouldn't have cleared out the flag ranks, the

admiral and general ranks of women and black people who have served honorably for decades, who have the most experience, who the force at the

military personnel command put up for more stars because they thought they were so very good.

And I think when you see, people have said to me, doesn't Trump have anyone advising him who is competent, who is capable, who's good, who's going to

help chart this pathway out of Iran? And I said, not -- no, because Pete Hegseth is clearing all of those people out of every command.

It is a debacle. It is infuriating. It is offensive. And it is contrary to the values of the United States of America.

AMANPOUR: It's really interesting to hear your perspective, given your experience in the military and now as the governor of the state of New

Jersey. Mikie Sherrill, thank you very much indeed for being with us. Quick, quick, quick. Who's your pick to win the final?

SHERRILL: Oh, that's a tough one. I got to go with what feels sort of like the hometown team with Messi. So, I'm going to go with Argentina.

AMANPOUR: All right. Probably a good bet. Messi is, they call him the goat. Thanks so much, Governor.

SHERRILL: Thank you so much. Have a great one.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And later in the program, pursuing your passions, even at 88. A look back at my 2018 interview with the acclaimed actor Anthony Hopkins, as

he prepares to release his debut classical album.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:20:00]

AMANPOUR: He's known for acting performances that can be truly chilling, portraying humanity's darkest villains in films like "The Silence of the

Lambs." But now at age 88, Anthony Hopkins is returning to his first love, music.

The Oscar and Emmy Award-winning actor is releasing his debut album as a classical composer, recorded with the Phil Harmonia Orchestra and the

world-renowned conductor Gustavo Dudamel. It is called "Life is a Dream," and Hopkins has been working on the songs for nearly six decades. Here's a

short excerpt from his first single, "Bracken Road," inspired by memories of growing up in Port Talbot, Wales.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: I spoke to Hopkins back in 2018 around the release of a film adaptation of "King Lear," in which he played the title role, of course. He

told me about his musical ambitions back then, which back then were only just a dream.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Anthony Hopkins, welcome to the program. You know, we are all so familiar with your massive body of work and it just strikes me, as a really

interesting question to ask you, that you didn't really want to be an actor. You've said music and art were your first loves and you sort of

stumbled into acting by mistake. How so?

ANTHONY HOPKINS, ACTOR: I wanted to be a musician. I wanted to be a pianist and a composer. I played the piano ever since I was a kid, six

years of age. Anyway, I was 17, and I sort of lost service (ph) in school, not qualified to do anything, hopeless of everything, academically, no

sports, nothing like that. So, I didn't know what I was going to do.

And suddenly, there was a scholarship for the Cardiff College of Music and Drama. So, I thought, well, maybe I'll go and try a scholarship as an

actor, and see if I can sneak into the music department. Anyway, I never acted before in my life, and I did a piece from "Othello." And I did the

audition. I didn't know what I was doing, but I did the audition, full of sound and fury, and they gave me the scholarship, much to my surprise. So,

that's how I'm -- how I started out the world, this beats booking for a living. I sort of enjoyed it. But I was, you know, I had no clue. And I

did two years there.

And then I came out of National Service, as they call it over here, the draft. I was the last going in 1958, 1960. And I came out and I decided to

follow a career in the acting business. I abandoned music, although I still play the piano. And that's how I started. You know, on tours and in

repertory companies. I didn't fare too well in my first job. I was fired because I was incompetent and dangerous on stage.

AMANPOUR: Well, let me ask you something, because it's really interesting to hear that 50 years ago you got your big stage break by playing Sir Lord

Laurence Olivier's understudy in the Strindberg play. And one day, as every actor dreams, the principal fell ill, couldn't play. And you stepped into

the role.

And I just wonder, you know, what you think about that serendipity and what he then said, the great man himself, Olivier wrote, a new young actor in

the company of exceptional promise named Anthony Hopkins was understudying me and walked away with the part of Edgar like a cat with a mouse between

his teeth. That's pretty amazing. What did you think when you got that kind of validation?

HOPKINS: I was an ambitious young kid. You know, I wanted to do everything and be everywhere. And -- but I was scared stiff. And I was understudying

Olivier. He seemed to take a shine to me because I was very strong and he admired strong men, you know, because I was physically very strong and

tough.

[13:25:00]

And I think he valued that as an actor. He said, you have to be strong, very healthy and fit. So, he gave me an understudy part to understudy

himself. And he'd never been ill in his life. He was -- then he had cancer. And it was in those days they had to burn it up with radium treatment, I

think. And I was told that -- I was phoned one morning saying, you're on stage tonight. I said, you're kidding me. And I thought they were joking.

And I went into the theatre for rehearsal. I'd learned the entire part. That's my thing. I always prepare. I went into the rehearsal with Robert

Stevens and Gerald McEwen (ph) and Glen Byam Shaw was directing. And unfortunately, the Olivier's costume and uniform fitted me. Anyway, the

play started and I got a huge round of applause at the end of it. And apparently, I was told I was very good. I was far too young.

But Olivier had come out of hospital. He'd visited the theatre. He was in a bathrobe or something, dressed up with his overcoat on and stood at the

back of the theatre to watch me. And he phoned me next day. He said, how do you feel? I said, well, I was scared. He said, I bet you were. He said, you

did very well, dear boy. And he said, any problems? I said, well, I went through about three shirts. I was so wet with perspiration and sweat. He

said, well, that's tension. I said, how long will it take to get rid of that? He said, about 25 years.

AMANPOUR: That's pretty -- that is a great story. And particularly that he got out of his sickbed basically and came to watch you. It is an amazing

story. I want to play just for a moment. I know I'm leapfrogging a lot, but so many people know you for so many things, but especially the younger

generation for the Hannibal Lecter. And I want to play, you know, how kind of awful a psychotic you are in this performance and what an amazing impact

it's had. We're just going to play a clip for a moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOPKINS: Oh, Agent Starling, you think you can dissect me with this blunt little tool?

JODIE FOSTER, ACTRESS: No. I thought that your knowledge.

HOPKINS: You're so ambitious, aren't you? Do you know what you look like to me with your good bag and your cheap shoes? You look like a rube, a

well-scrubbed hustling rube with a little taste. Good nutrition has given you some length of bone, but you're not more than one generation from poor

white trash, are you, Agent Starling? And that accent you've tried so desperately to shed, pure West Virginia.

What is your father, dear? Is he a coal miner? Does he stink of old man? You know how quickly the boys found you, all those tedious, sticky

fumblings in the back seats of cars, while you could only dream of getting out, getting anywhere, getting all the way to the end.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: I mean, it's chilling even today as we watch it. I wonder what your reaction to that is. You got an Oscar for playing that role, and I

wonder how your acting life changed after that role.

HOPKINS: My agent phoned one afternoon. I was in the theatre early. I was there early, you know, getting ready to go on, and it was a long run, this,

and I was getting tired and bored, wanting to break out. My agent sent me a script. He said, I want you to read a script called "The Silence of the

Lambs," and I thought it was a -- I said, is it children's stories? No, it's with Jodie Foster, and you play part of Hannibal Lecter. They're very

interested in you playing it.

So, the script came. I read part of it. I phoned him up. I said, is this an offer or not? And he said, well, it's not an offer. They're very

interested. I said, well, I don't want to read anymore. This is one of the best parts I've ever read.

So, he phoned back an hour later. He said, Jonathan Demme, the director, is coming to see you tomorrow night. You're on. I said, OK. And I knew how to

play it. I don't know why, but I know how to play these parts. It's a strange feeling, but it's in my muscles and in my nature, I guess. I guess

I'm an actor by freaky chance. I don't know why. I'm not an intellectual. I'm not an educated person, but I have this instinct for it and a certain

toughness and rawness in my nature.

AMANPOUR: You know, you've described your toughness and not being a gentle actor. And you did say to, you know, the TV movie critic, Barry Norman,

back in 1993, the British critic, you know, after playing, you know, Lector, Nixon, Hitler, all of those dark roles, you said it's the certainty

within them that's attractive, the unblinkered look into the darkness. I think I understand that for some reason. It's a pretty big admission that.

HOPKINS: Yes. And I quite -- can't quite understand anything about what I meant by that. I still don't get it, you know.

[13:30:00]

But I've always had that instinct ever since I was a kid of the certainty of that life is tough and hard. And I came from a background. My father was

a hardworking man. So, was my grandfather. But there was a certain toughness about them. They didn't mince words. They weren't very touchy

feely. And I think that's what I did. It was beyond ego. It was just an instinct that forced me to look at life as it is.

For example, in the Lear. Can I jump to that for a moment?

AMANPOUR: You can. But I want to play -- I want to ask you about that because I'm going to play a clip.

HOPKINS: OK.

AMANPOUR: So, you know, you mentioned Lear and, you know, we're circling all the way back in your career to Shakespeare. And of course, it's been

played by many, many greats. Your old buddy, Sir Ian McKellen, is doing it in the West End in Britain right now. Glenda Jackson, the other great

British actress, is about to take on "King Lear" on Broadway. And now, you're taking the film version. And it's a more modernistic, unusual

adaptation of Lear. And this is the scene. You just talked about Cordelia and how you treated her like a boy. In this scene, you're kind of disowning

her. Let's just play it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOPKINS: Better thou hadst not been born, than not to have pleased me better.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My lord of Burgundy, what say you to the lady? Will you ever?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But you're self-proposed, and I will make Cordelia Duchess of Burgundy.

HOPKINS: Nothing I have sworn. I'm firm.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am sorry, then. You have so lost a father that you must lose a husband.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Peace be with Burgundy. Since that respect and fortunes are his love, I shall not be his wife.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fairest Cordelia, thee and thy virtues. Here, I seize upon.

HOPKINS: Thou hast her, King. Let her be thine. For we have no such daughter, nor shall ever see that face of hers again. Therefore, be gone.

Without our grace, our love, our benison. Come.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: How do you feel when you look at that clip?

HOPKINS: Well, I saw it recently. I was in Rome and I got a -- I saw the film. I was moved not by my own performance, I was moved by the nature of

that scene, because it's very Welsh. It's very part of my own life.

And I -- it sounds weird to say that, because I don't know quite what I mean, but there's something I know about this, something in my nature I

know, maybe through experience with my parents, my father, my grandfather. There's a darkness that I don't want to make it sound, you know,

mysterious, but there is something in there that moves me, about the finality of love, about the finality of betrayal, and finally, you know,

they are not long, the days of wine and roses. Off we go into the darkness.

There's a wonderful scene in "Citizen Kane" where Joseph Cotten is taken in the hospital back into the darkness towards death. That really preoccupies

me as I'm getting older, but not in a morbid sense. I hope I have some many years left, and I'll go on working, because I'm in good shape, and I'm

tough, and I'm strong, but there's something that moves me about that kind of -- you know, I found it -- but actually I'll make a boast. I found Lear

very easy to play this time, dead easy to play. Didn't find it difficult at all, whether people like it or not. It was my Lear, and I found it really

easy to play, and a great cast, a great cast, and a great director.

And so that's -- I give everyone credit for that. It was the easiest part I've ever played. It sounds weird, but it really was.

AMANPOUR: Do you now -- or when did you feel that acting was not a mistake?

HOPKINS: Oh, just recently. Recently, I was thinking, my goodness, I've had a long life. I've had an amazing life. I've had a great life. I've

worked with some extraordinary people, and I am what I am today, and I look out of my window, and I think, how on earth did I get here?

And I can't really account for any of it. It was all chance. I was given so many breaks, and I've made many, many mistakes, but I've managed to pull

myself up again by the bootstraps and go on with it. So, I know it's the only thing I can do.

[13:35:00]

I have other hobbies. I paint, and I play the piano, and I compose music, but this is the one thing that I do, and I love, and I relish. And I hope I

go on doing a few more things like that, but it's been the best life, and there was no mistake made. And I look back with a kind of strange nostalgia

to those early days when I was a kid, you know, and my father said, I don't know what's going to happen to me, but I'm going to do my best, and I'm

going to do my best. He's hopeless at school and all that. Anyway, that's why I became what I am today.

But one -- I will say one last thing. The happiest time of my life is now because I've given, get rid of self-consciousness, being free of self-

consciousness, being free to not to realize that I'm not that important. None of us are that hot. We're here for a very limited time, and when we

think we are important, think again because we are not, and not important at all, and that's the great freedom I feel now is to have no big deal, and

I have a mantra which is, you know, it's none of my business what people say of me or think of me. I am what I am, and I do what I do because I love

doing it. You know, it's all in the game, game of life upon life. No sweat, no big deal. There are no big deals, and that's what I like.

And that's what I -- like -- enjoy about my life now. It's no big deal. And to have a great sense of humor about it all, because it waits for us at the

end of it all, you know. There's no escape. Life is terminal. I like that. It sounds like gallows humor, but I like it. It gives me an edge.

AMANPOUR: And on that gallows humor note, it's been a pleasure speaking to you. Sir Anthony Hopkins, thank you for joining me.

HOPKINS: Thank you very much. Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Coming up after the break, how to harness power in the fight for social justice. Top strategist, Rashad Robinson, tells Michel Martin where

he thinks progressives have gone wrong, but how they can also fix it. We'll be right back after this short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: We turn now to the fight for social justice in America, tougher than ever, as Trump doubles down on his anti-DEI agenda. Rashad Robinson is

a top strategist who spent his career campaigning for change. In his new book, he argues that progressives are confusing visibility with actual

power and undermining what could be significant wins. He speaks to Michel Martin about how he believes power really works in politics and how it can

be harnessed.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks, Christiane. Rashad Robinson, thank you so much for talking with us.

RASHAD ROBINSON, AUTHOR, "FROM PRESENCE TO POWER": Thanks for having me.

MARTIN: You know, you've been described as an activist, as an organizer. For people who don't know what you do, what do you do?

[13:40:00]

ROBINSON: Every day I try to find ways to help win more social change. I build campaigns. I identify the stories that hopefully move more people

into feeling like they can make change and also look for the openings, the possibilities that if we push in this direction or we push in that

direction, we can pass policies. We can make society more fair and more equitable.

That's what I've been doing for the last several decades. I've been doing it inside of organizations. I've been doing it through public speaking and

I've been doing it by trying to bring people together.

MARTIN: You have worked with existing organizations like GLAAD that existed before you got involved with them, focused on LGBTQ rights, rights,

not just rights, but also sort of presence in society. And then you also have sort of helped build organizations like Color of Change.

Would it be fair to say that the reason you wrote this book is that your side is losing more than it's winning?

ROBINSON: I absolutely wrote this book because we're losing more than we're winning, and I'm tired of losing. And every day when I see losses, I

see things like magical thinking or a misunderstanding of power, how power operates.

And you can continue to sort of operate inside the context, continue to try to build campaigns, or you can step back and think about sort of how do I

disrupt the current set of thinking, the current conventional wisdom, and give us a new way of thinking about power that is modern, that it's

updated, and moves us in a different direction.

MARTIN: So, when did you start to feel this way? Because it's not exactly a secret that a lot of the progressive initiatives and goals have really

seen a setback in the current moment. I mean, you could trace it to President Trump's first election, but it's not just his election per se,

it's just the rapidity with which that he and his allies have been able to achieve legislative gains, to sort of normalize certain language that was

considered unacceptable in the public sphere.

So, I'm just wondering, was there like a eureka moment for you where you just said, wow, we are really losing here?

ROBINSON: They've been so consequential in what they've done. And I think the moment when I knew I had to write this book was right after Trump's

first victory. I went to the White House shortly after his victory as he started to name his cabinet officials. I also went and met with folks like

Senator Schumer.

And in each of those conversations, I felt like I was in a different universe. I was also inside of lots of conversations inside of the sort of

the progressive or the left movement as we might talk about it in the United States. And in each of those conversations, people were either

treating his victory, Trump's victory, like, oh, we'll negotiate and we'll set up our structures the same way we did during the Bush administration.

Or I would hear folks talk about things like, we've made so much progress on things like criminal justice. The country has changed. Many of those

policies are things that we can count on continuing to move forward.

I recognize that in that moment, people had really misread what was happening, misread Trump, misread power, misread what was going to happen

next. And it's really hard to run and build campaigns in that context. And I knew that I had to do something different besides just the day in and day

out of trying to run campaigns that sometimes win and sometimes lose.

MARTIN: The first thing you say that people are confused about, the difference between presence and power. You said, they're not the same

thing. You say, making change isn't about how many people we mobilize to take action. It's about who we mobilize and what actions they take and

whether those actions create the kind of leverage necessary to force change. So, say a little bit more about that.

And I think I need to say specifically, you're talking about people on the left. Because I think part of your analysis is people on the right are not

confused.

ROBINSON: I don't think people on the right are confused the way we are.

MARTIN: OK.

ROBINSON: I think there's an incentive structure in society around retweets, shout outs from the stage, visibility, getting your story on the

front page of the paper. Presence is not bad. But we mistake presence for power. We can think something has happened that hasn't actually happened.

We can confuse a black president for thinking that we are post-racial. We can think that a black celebrity who announces that she's pregnant on the

internet stops means that America is as comfortable with monetizing and celebrating black culture as they are with black people. And those two

things are different.

Power is the ability to change the rules. It's the written rules of policy, the unwritten rules of culture. And when we mistake presence for power,

it's one of those fundamental things that sort of traps us into celebrating things that are not actually wins.

MARTIN: Like for example --

ROBINSON: Celebrating a bunch of people showing up to a protest, but not actually getting to a place where we've made change.

MARTIN: Like an example being what? The Women's March? It's considered to be one of the largest mobilizations.

[13:45:00]

ROBINSON: Example is a lot of our marches. And so, you know, the thing about a lot of our marches is that they are steps sometimes on the road.

They are about getting people together, sometimes getting people socialized. But over this current period, we're going to have to direct our

marches to places where we actually build leverage.

Continuing to show up at state capitals or Capitol Hill where it's almost like choreography. Those were technologies and tools that worked during a

different era. But if we are not placing the right energy and the right focus on corporations, on the forces that are enabling what is happening in

our society, I think what ends up happening is that we don't build the necessary leverage to force something different to happen.

We force sort of a choreography of the left is outraged, we march in a certain place, the march is over, everything gets cleaned up, people go

home, and nothing actually gets forced. No one is nervous about disappointing us.

The other thing that has happened is that our opponents have changed their tactics because nothing is static. And so, what has really happened is on

the right is that they have made their engagement almost like the spectators are on the field in a new way. You go to the gym and people are

turning on Fox News or conservative TV in the gym. You go out in the streets and people are wearing their red caps, they're wearing their

jerseys. It's almost like a lifestyle.

And I hear a lot of people on the left say things like, when we win. When we win, all of these things will happen. And you hear folks on the right

never talk about when they win. And it's sort of like if you follow Marvel or you watch, you know, any of like an action movie, it's hard to be in a

battle with someone that never thinks the war is going to end and you think the war is going to end. The right is on the field every day. And we have

to think very differently.

So, yes, our marches are not necessarily a bad thing, but they are presence and they are just presence alone. And unless we actually force that energy

to the places that we can build leverage to force those in power to be nervous about disappointing us, then we're not going to actually move that

energy of people showing up into something different.

MARTIN: As an example of what you say, sort of turning belief into action or sort of turning narrative into action, after the murder of Trayvon

Martin, which was just a traumatic and seminal event in the lives of many people, Trayvon Martin, who went out to the store to get some snacks for

his little brother and was shot by a vigilante on his way home.

You said instead of focusing only on the shooter or prosecution, you traced the issue to ALEC, a powerful network that brings corporations and state

lawmakers together to kind of write and promote legislation. Legislation that's already drafted, you sort of hand it to your preferred legislators

and they can sort of move it through the legislative process. And you wanted to focus on stand your ground laws.

So, how did you make the sort of the pivot from people are outraged about this thing, they understand what that thing is, to moving to a strategy

around something that they may not even know exists?

ROBINSON: Yes. And this attention economy, it's something that I talk about is respond, build, pivot and scale. Responding to moments that exist

in the world, helping people understand what's at stake. And so, in that moment, of course we fought for justice for Trayvon and we called on the

Department of Justice and we tried to get folks involved.

But we recognize that if you're just fighting these individual moments and not raising the floor on what's acceptable and pushing up the ceiling on

what's possible, you're almost playing whack-a-mole, right? So, we wanted to both fight for justice for Trayvon and also deal with the fact that we

were living in a society where there will continue to be more Trayvons.

And so, we looked at how this stand on your ground policy got in place. And it came in place through the American Legislative Exchange Council, which

at the time, most of its money came from the biggest corporations in the country. Corporations that came to black communities and said, buy our

products or use our services. And we began communicating with them behind the scenes, really helping them understand what was at stake.

And we built enough of a campaign by understanding what they would say back to us. That by the time we went public, we were able to force over a

hundred corporations to divest from ALEC, forcing a different conversation about the role that those corporations were playing on these racial justice

issues, not letting them hide behind the other reasons they may have been part of ALEC. And that also opened up a different narrative story that

allowed us to go into Hollywood and have a conversation about representation in the media and crime TV shows.

[13:50:00]

My goal sort of in all of this is how do you make these issues as salient to as many people as possible? How do you help tell a full story to people

about why things are happening the way they are? And how do you help people understand not just who's behind it, but who's enabling it?

MARTIN: You have all kinds of nuggets in this book. I mean, too many to name, but one of the ones that stood out to me is name the villain. If you

don't tell people whom to blame, they are going to blame you. Say more about that.

ROBINSON: I mean, every year sort of during the Biden years, I would talk to the folks at the domestic policy shop and I would say things like,

you've got to be really clear with us during these speeches around why we haven't gotten the George Floyd Act, why we haven't gotten the John Lewis

Voting Rights Act, why some of these other things that we need that folks voted for are not happening.

We've got to name the corporations, the police unions. We've got to name the forces that are sort of standing in the way on the other side. People

have to understand that story and understand the pain. And I would often get pushback. Well, that's not really the way we like to do things.

But on the other side, Trump is constantly naming a villain and he's naming in his own way, he's naming trans kids, he's naming black people and

women's equality and immigrants and all of these folks he's naming and he's telling a story that has a hero and a villain. And on our side, we're

talking about Republicans versus Democrats and the right versus the left and not being clear and specific with people.

We have to tell stories that make sense, help people understand what's in the way of change. And then we also have to run campaigns to take those

forces on, give people real things to do. That's part of what actually has to change. If we're really serious about winning victories that matter and

being in a position to enforce them and make them stick.

MARTIN: One of the central arguments of the democratic socialists movement in the United States is that it's money. It's basically corporate money,

that both parties are fueled and funded by the same people. You know, to your point, you say, OK, well, so the Democrats get one-third of the pot

and the Republicans get two-thirds, but the Democrats are happy with that one-third. And the real issue is that they're still funded by all the same,

it's really the money. Do you think that's true?

ROBINSON: I think a piece of that is true. And when I talk about it in the profiteering section, I think profiteering is about money, but profiteering

is also about a different type of hierarchy. I think of Stephen Miller who works for Trump as a profiteer. And I don't think Stephen Miller is in it

for the money the way that Elon Musk is in it for the money.

I think Stephen Miller wants his kids to have access to certain type of opportunities and not many other kids. I think he wants it to be a

hierarchy of how men are treated in society versus women. And I think that there are many folks that we are battling that are in the sort of, that are

profiteers, but operate from a hierarchy perspective.

If I think -- if we only see it as money, then we say things like, you know, those working-class white people are voting against their interest.

And not like fully thinking about, well, maybe their interests are a multitude of things. And so, racial and gender hierarchy and sort of the

ways in which society is structured, so some people get the benefits and the rewards and other people don't, is also part of profiteering.

So, yes, it is about the money, but I think if we only think about it as money, then we miss so much of how this country was built and formed, how

its laws developed and how the money was made in the first place.

MARTIN: Rashad Robinson, thank you so much.

ROBINSON: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And finally, the football world cup or soccer to you Americans wraps up in New Jersey on Sunday with Spain taking on Argentina. And it's

certainly been a memorable tournament, not just on the pitch, but off too. So, let's look back at some of those fun fan moments.

Norway was the unexpected fair weather fan favorite in many ways, thanks to that iconic Viking row and their enigmatic star striker, Erling Haaland.

They may have fallen in the quarterfinals to England, but they still received a hero's welcome back home with fans gathering in Oslo for a

special parade and one final Viking row.

Then there was the Tartan Army. It was the first time Scotland's legendary fans got to grace a world cup in 28 years. And they really made their

impact on America. Placing cones on top of statues might feel random, but eventually even Boston's mayor got involved.

And what about Merlin the Duck, Mexico's quacky mascot, who even received presidential approval from Claudia Sheinbaum.

[13:55:00]

And not forgetting Japanese fans and their philosophy of meiwaku, the habit of showing respect to the venue and the hosts. Japanese fans are often

spotted cleaning up litter in the stadiums. The players even tidy their dressing rooms.

From Kurosawa as lovable underdogs to Cape Verde defying expectations, truly there are too many to mention. So, may the best fans win on Sunday.

That's it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can always

catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media. Thank you for watching, and goodbye from London.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:00:00]

END