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Amanpour
Interview with Former NSC Senior Director for China Julian Gewirtz; Interview with "Tonight the Music Seems So Loud" Author Sathnam Sanghera; Interview with Syrian President Ahmed al-Sharaa. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired August 28, 2026 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Hello everyone and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JULIAN GEWIRTZ, FORMER NSC SENIOR DIRECTOR FOR CHINA: From Beijing's view, over the past year they have seen over and over again that the Trump
administration speaks loudly but does not carry a big stick.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Hacking allegations and a potential collision course on Iran. Tensions grow between the U.S. and China just weeks ahead of President Xi's
visit to the White House. Will this throw a wrench into the upcoming summit? I asked the former director for China and Taiwan affairs for the
Biden administration.
Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SATHNAM SANGHERA, AUTHOR, "TONIGHT THE MUSIC SEEMS SO LOUD": He was ridiculed often for what people saw as kind of disposable pop music. But
this is music that has really lasted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: -- "Tonight the Music Seems So Loud." A new biography sheds light on the beautiful and the ugly moments in George Michael's rise to
fame. Author Sathnam Sanghera joins the show.
Plus, serious strides towards reconstruction and unity as serious Kurdish forces announce dissolution. We revisit Christiane's conversation with
President Ahmed al-Sharaa and his reflections on how his country is recovering from years of civil war.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
Relations between Washington and Beijing are more complicated than ever. As U.S. officials allege, they exposed a major Chinese cyber-attack targeting
sensitive agencies like NASA, the Federal Reserve and the Department of Justice. China has pushed back, saying the U.S. is using the accusations to
smear and discredit China.
It's not the first time that hacking allegations have thrown a wrench into relations between the two nations. In a primetime address last month,
President Trump accused China of meddling in the 2020 election, targeting vulnerabilities in the American voting system.
The president took no action, though. In fact, some accuse him of being soft on President Xi. Visibly absent from the administration's sanctions on
Iran this week, Chinese financial institutions, the key lifeline for Tehran's regime. It's all setting an awkward tone for President Xi's visit
to the White House next month.
So, what can we expect from the summit? And will President Trump stand firm and get tough on China? Joining me is Julian Gewirtz, former senior
director for China and Taiwan affairs in the Biden administration. Julian, welcome to the program.
So, let's start with this Justice Department news exposing an alleged Chinese espionage campaign reaching into institutions like NASA, the Fed,
even the Senate. Yesterday on CNN, I interviewed Senator Chris Coons of Delaware. He sits on the Foreign Relations Committee, the Judiciary
Committees. I asked him if the DOJ had been in touch with him and reached out to him about this development and where, if at all, China was able to
infiltrate. Here was his response.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Has the Justice Department contacted you or your office with steps to secure your own cyber operations?
SEN. CHRIS COONS (D-DE): No, they have not, at least not that I'm aware of. And you would think I'd be aware of that. We need to be doing more to
invest in protecting our national infrastructure. And, frankly, while alarming, this is in no way surprising. China has over and over infiltrated
our core infrastructure. We need to be on the cutting edge of protecting our nation from these and other attacks.
And, frankly, with our president and our national security leadership distracted by the war of choice that they've launched against Iran six
months ago, I suspect they see us as a more easy target now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: So, what is your response, Julian? Are you surprised by this development? And is the United States where it should be in protecting some
of its most vulnerable and important institutions from cyber-attacks?
JULIAN GEWIRTZ, FORMER NSC SENIOR DIRECTOR FOR CHINA: It's great to be with you. And I think what Senator Coons said is spot on. China has been
conducting these kinds of operations in a way that is profoundly concerning and poses real threats to the critical infrastructure and security of the
United States.
[13:05:00]
But it's a highly ironic moment to announce, first, these cyber-attacks, second, to underscore China's continuing ties with Iran. In both of these
dimensions, we're seeing the ways in which China poses real challenges to U.S. interests. But, of course, this is all happening in the run-up to
giving Xi Jinping the honor of a visit to Washington, where he'll be vetted at the White House. So, to put it mildly, it's a mixed message.
GOLODRYGA: And it's coming from the same administration, which makes it even all that more confusing. And you write that Beijing is anxious about
Xi being, quote, "embarrassed" in Washington when he arrives for this state visit. Are these types of announcements exactly what the Chinese officials
are speaking about?
GEWIRTZ: You know, so, from Beijing's perspective, they are feeling overall quite confident about their ability to manage the United States and
to manage President Trump. They have, over the past year, moved the United States from a posture of imposing very high tariffs, pushing back on China
in some ways, to an approach where President Trump has made clear that his top priority is his personal so-called friendship with Xi Jinping.
But, on the other hand, as you alluded to, the Chinese leadership is always anxious about sending their top official to Washington. Xi Jinping hasn't
visited Washington since 2015. In the past decade, U.S.-China relations have transformed. And so, in that sense, they are quite worried because
they're sending their leader into the lion's den, where there are many people who are quite critical. And past state visits have not always gone
so smoothly, so they have some evidence to point to.
GOLODRYGA: This week was also the week that the president had called economic D-Day. His treasury secretary announced and previewed what would
be facing Iran if it doesn't come to the negotiating table as it relates to the war. Yet, there were no specifics about who these unprecedented
secondary sanctions would be leveled against. And, obviously, the focus here is whether China would be impacted because that is the lifeline for
Iran. Some 90 percent of Iranian oil exports go to China.
China wasn't named. The secretary was asked twice about that. And no Chinese financial institution was named either. Did that surprise you?
GEWIRTZ: Well, there's no mystery that if you actually wanted to meaningfully tighten the pressure on the Iranian economy, China would be
the biggest target for exactly the reasons that you said. So, it's been startling and, candidly, I think self-defeating from the Trump
administration's perspective to roll out this enormous announcement to, you know, inflate the significance of what they were planning to do and then
very clearly avoid, as you say, even uttering the word China, even though China is Iran's largest trading partner in many key dimensions.
So, the real question from Beijing's perspective is do they need to take these threats seriously at all? And, candidly, I think from Beijing's view,
over the past year, they have seen over and over again that the Trump administration speaks loudly but does not carry a big stick when it comes
to U.S.-China relations, and that is very worrying for long-term American interests.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, Secretary Bessent described it as a grace period, but it does raise the question of whether China is taking him seriously here and
how they read that grace period that the administration is offering them for now, at least publicly.
At the same time, if the United States were to introduce secondary sanctions against China, how do you think China would respond? Would we see
sort of the same play that we saw took place after the tariff war between these two countries where China not only surprised the United States but
the rest of the world by threatening to withhold rare earth minerals? There were some that thought that China perhaps overstepped here given the
reaction from other countries, specifically in Europe, to that threat.
GEWIRTZ: Well, that's exactly right, and from Beijing's perspective, they wasted no time in saying that if the United States pursued this kind of
secondary sanctions that they would punch back tit-for-tat and they would not comply with American wishes. They are not looking to do the Trump
administration any favors when it comes to Iran, which they see as a problem the United States created for itself. But as you say, the question
of China's control, its chokehold over global rare earth supplies is very significant. Right now, Beijing still has that leverage.
[13:10:00]
GOLODRYGA: As we noted in the introduction, it's not just this Justice Department announcement of the Chinese hacking. President Trump himself
took time for a national address earlier this summer accusing China of trying to interfere in the 2020 elections. That's coming, I think, more
from his interpretation of intelligence than what the intelligence community has actually announced.
That having been said, if that is where the president truly stands and believes, why do you think he has not yet expressed that frustration to
President Xi himself and instead rolling out the red carpet for him in just a few weeks' time?
GEWIRTZ: It's a pretty remarkable split screen, and I think what we have to take from that, and certainly what Beijing appears to have taken from
that, is that those comments that you alluded to from the president were primarily, if not exclusively, geared toward a domestic political audience,
geared toward the upcoming midterms.
But in a strange way, they do not appear to have affected how he actually sees China or Xi Jinping, which he continues to talk about quite favorably,
emphasizing, as I said, his friendship as he sees it with Xi Jinping and emphasizing the importance of China on the global stage.
So, it's a very, very strange set of dynamics to set in motion on the eve of a state visit that I should just point out is going to happen less than
five weeks before the midterm elections.
GOLODRYGA: You call that shocking that the president would still hold a summit with a country that only 17 percent of Americans, according to some
polling, trust. What does he get out of this summit politically ahead of what could be a very, very vulnerable midterm election cycle for him and
his party?
GEWIRTZ: Well, you know, I've been thinking about the fact that there really is no prior American president I can imagine, even in the heyday of
U.S.-China relations, when everyone thought the two countries were going to be friends, there's no prior president I can imagine who would host a state
visit so soon, just about a month before a major contested midterm elections.
And what I think we have to take from that is that President Trump at some level doesn't think China matters very much in American politics or,
perhaps even more concerning for Republicans who are on the ballot, he just doesn't care. He wants to have a good meeting with Xi Jinping. He enjoys
the pageantry. He sees Xi as a peer on the world stage. He enjoyed very much, he has said, his trip to China in May of this year.
And so, he's clearly looking forward to this visit, and something as small as a pesky election isn't going to get in the way of that.
GOLODRYGA: It is so interesting to look at the evolution of this relationship between President Trump and President Xi and Trump's approach
to China overall over his two administrations because they are quite striking in the contrast here. President Trump, in his first term, really
was hawkish on China and introduced new policies towards China that, let's be honest, carried over into the Biden administration and across party
lines, too.
We saw a shift in terms of U.S. approach from both Republicans and Democrats to be more skeptical and hawkish and critical of China. And now,
we're seeing this sort of reversal or at least, as you described, maybe indifference from President Trump who really values friendship above all
else. How does President Xi see this evolution?
GEWIRTZ: Well, from President Xi Jinping's perspective, the core of U.S.- China relations has for a long time involved two different tensions or streams of influence. One is the strong economic relationship that has
persisted across these periods of really increasing security and other concerns. That's on the one hand, the economic relationship.
On the other hand, though, has been this rising sense that China is the primary challenge or even threat to the United States engaged in a long-
term competition for global influence, that both countries want to be the world's leading power, and that creates these profound and in some sense
irreconcilable challenges.
Now, what Xi Jinping, I think, sees in President Trump is a person who cares most about two things. First, as I've said, his personal relationship
with Xi Jinping. It's quite striking. President Xi is a very unsentimental and quite taciturn figure. President Trump, of course, wears his emotions
on his sleeve and is quite voluble. And despite that, President Trump really wants this relationship.
[13:15:00]
And then second, President Trump has, for a long time, been very focused on deal-making with China, on the idea of a big, sweeping economic and trade
deal. That's why he brought business leaders with him to China in May. And, you know, one of the really striking things there is, in his first term and
in the Biden administration, we were focused on de-risking, lowering exposure in the American economy to China.
But the message that is sent when you bring a bunch of business leaders to Beijing is the opposite of de-risking. It is, we're open for business, and,
of course, that's raising long-term questions about whether he is creating new vulnerabilities for the American economy over the long-term.
GOLODRYGA: Fascinating. Julian, in the final seconds we have, you wrote this week in your Substack, which I recommend, I really enjoyed reading,
about the death of the pivot to Asia. That has been a U.S. policy going back to, I believe, President Obama's administration. The last U.S. carrier
just left the Western Pacific for the Middle East now.
When Xi sits down at the White House next month with President Trump, will he believe that America has ceded Asia?
GEWIRTZ: You know, from Xi Jinping's perspective, he is making progress that he never thought would be possible, far faster than he ever expected,
in increasing China's influence in Asia and undermining the U.S. position. And he is doing that because the United States is pulling back, is not
standing with our allies, and is sending a message to the region, to Asia, that it's just a lower priority than other parts of the world, including
the Western Hemisphere and the Middle East.
And so, from Xi Jinping's perspective, when he comes to Washington, he sees himself in a confident, strong position as a pure superpower of the United
States, and he believes fundamentally that time is on China's side. And that, as an American, is a deeply worrying fact.
GOLODRYGA: Julian Gewirtz, we'll have to leave it there. Thank you for joining the program. Really appreciate it.
GEWIRTZ: Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: And later on the show, he wrote the most recognizable saxophone riff in music history. But how much do we really know about George Michael?
Acclaimed author and now George Michael biographer and superfan, Sathnam Sanghera joins the show.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:20:00]
GOLODRYGA: This week, the world mourned the loss of Dolly Parton, the prolific singer known for her timeless hits like "9 to 5" and "Jolene." It
makes this year even harder for music lovers who will also be marking the 10th anniversary of another icon's passing. George Michael, the author of
anthems like "Careless Whisper" and "Faith," composed the soundtrack of a whole pop generation. But his life has often been told through the tragedy
of a crippling drug addiction as well as a ruthless homophobia of the British tabloid press in the '80s and '90s.
Now, an intimate biography dives into the bold and the beautiful of the wham singer's journey. Tonight, the music seems so loud, explores the
artist's place among the biggest names in music. You may know its author, Sathnam Sanghera, for bestsellers like "Empire Land," exploring the impacts
of British imperialism.
But now, he's turned his focus to the very different subject of music, and he joined me to discuss the life and legacy of George Michael.
Sathnam, welcome to the program. I have to tell you, I just loved this book. It was the highlight of my summer. I didn't want it to end. I've been
listening to George Michael nonstop while I was reading the book and ever since. I was also a huge fan. I didn't write a book about George Michael,
but if I did, it would be very much like yours.
But we have to note, it is different from your previous work, often focused on colonialism, race, empire. Then you invested two years of your life to
write about George Michael. Why and why now?
SATHNAM SANGHERA, AUTHOR, "TONIGHT THE MUSIC SEEMS SO LOUD": Yes. I'm so glad you enjoyed it, because it was a real joy for me to escape the culture
walls and write about something that gave me joy. But the odd thing about George Michael is, you know, he's one of the most successful artists in
history.
You know, he's still one of the most played artists on radio across the West, has one of the most successful Christmas songs in history. "Careless
Whisper" is a meme on social media. And yet there's no real books about him. You know, there's hundreds of books about Bob Dylan and Prince and
even Taylor Swift. And yet there wasn't one serious book about George Michael. And so, that's why I wanted to write "Tonight the Music Seems So
Loud."
GOLODRYGA: And that, of course, is a lyric from "Careless Whisper." We'll get to that in a second. But there are similarities that you found between
yourself and George Michael. Maybe I shared those similarities, and that was why I was drawn to him as well. I myself am an immigrant to the United
States. You were both sons of immigrants, his father from Cyprus, your parents from Punjab. You wrote he was one of us. What did being an
immigrant son put into his music?
SANGHERA: Yes, it's quite weird because I guess like you, I grew up like thinking George Michael was the most glamorous person on earth. So, unlike
me in every single way. But then it was strange to realize that he also was a child of an immigrant. He also was sent to language lessons on Saturday
mornings that he hated. He didn't particularly like Greek music. He rebelled against a lot of it. But then it also defined him in so many ways.
And also, on his mother's side, there was a Jewish history.
And so, this is the way in which I think in some ways George was kind of post-racial. You know, so many different groups claim him. He was a white
man from London who nevertheless won, you know, music awards for black music in America. And that's I think it was it was kind of he couldn't
really be put into a box.
GOLODRYGA: And Andrew, his bandmate from Wham!, also the son of an immigrant. I love how you wove that together. Let's talk about your
childhood, because you say you were the only George Michael fan you knew. You call it a strange hill to die on. And nonetheless, you were a dedicated
fan. Your college friends, you write, tape the Sons, zip me up before you go, go play on "Wake Me Up Before You Go-Go to your door. How did loving
George Michael shape your youth?
SANGHERA: Yes. I mean, I've got to say, you know, I went to a boy's school in Wolverhampton in England and there were no other George Michael fans in
the 1990s. It was a very strange thing to be into. I remember having standoff arguments about why George Michael was better than, you know,
Oasis and Blur.
But you know what, I think my fandom has dated quite well. And the mockery has continued pretty much my whole life, but it's declined year by year.
So, much so that now that the book has come out, there's lots of people out there saying, you know, they never looked down on George Michael. But the -
- if you read the reviews from the time, he was he was ridiculed often for what people saw as kind of disposable pop music.
[13:25:00]
But this is music that has really lasted. You know, a lot of these songs are still being played 25, 30 years later, which I think makes them
classics.
GOLODRYGA: I agree and will continue to be played. So, let's dig through the numbers, because I think you were right. I think you were right to hone
in on the fact that he deserved his due in terms of being placed in the pantheon of music greats like so many others. And yet he was ridiculed or
at least not taken seriously, seen as a bit cheesy. I don't understand why.
So, Sony and his official estate credit him with more than 120 million records sold, including Wham! and his solo career. Billboard also found
that extraordinary. 79 percent of his hot 100 entries reached number one, the highest success rate, among them qualifying artists in its 2025
comparison, as you noted, last Christmas was officially the most popular song in the world for a period of time. And you wrote, the song is the pop
equivalent of Lionel Messi's footballing career when it comes to facts.
So, it seems to me as if you wrote this book to sort of validate his place in history and why you think he was robbed from getting the accolades that
others were.
SANGHERA: Yes, absolutely. I mean, he has a high -- like you said, he has the highest hit rate in the history of the Billboard Hot 100, better than
the Beatles, better than Taylor Swift. And yet he's not really discussed in those terms. And I think part of the reason is that he was a very
contradictory guy. You know, he made sometimes very disposable pop music, but other times very critically acclaimed pop music.
For a long time, he was in the closet. But then he came out in this incredibly bold way. You know, he sued Sony. Then he went back to Sony. He
wanted to be famous. Then he didn't want to be famous. And I think this makes him quite hard to analyze and hard to make sense of. But the music
has really lasted.
I play this game whenever I'm walking around a shopping mall anywhere in the world. I count how long it is before I hear a George Michael song. And
it's never been more than 40 minutes.
GOLODRYGA: You talk about when he finally did come out, because those who knew him, those in his inner circle, you know, he said that he did date
women early in his life, but that it was when he finally met the love of his life, who sadly died of AIDS just shortly after they met Anselmo, that
that's when he knew that he had found love.
But it was only in 1998 when he was outed by an arrest that was quite embarrassing for him and could have been crushing for him professionally in
a public restroom in Los Angeles, charged with engaging in a lewd act that he then responded by an interview with CNN, which will air a clip of and
also writing a song called "Outside" mocking this whole thing. This was a sort of victory lap for him, while also being able to come out to the world
in a way where he finally felt comfortable in doing so.
SANGHERA: Absolutely. And I think lots of people at the time thought he would be ashamed. They thought it would end his career. But he did the
exact opposite. He went on CNN and he said, you know what, I've done this before. I'm not ashamed. It was silly, but actually this is who I am. And
he was pretty much the first star of that of that kind of stature who'd ever done that.
And I think he fundamentally changed the way the press talk about gay people after that. And I think he opened up the door for lots of other pop
stars to be open about their sexuality. And this is one of the many ways in which, as I explained in my book, that he was actually a very culturally
important figure beyond the music.
GOLODRYGA: Even if that's not how he intended to present himself. Here's the clip from CNN.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why do you feel compelled to open up a very private part of your life and make it so public?
GEORGE MICHAEL, SINGER: Well, I feel because I've kind of done that, haven't I? You know, I've done that in a way that I didn't really intend
to. And I think having done something as stupid as that, I'm -- you know, I'm a very proud man. I want people to know that I have not been exposed as
a gay man in any way that I feel. I don't feel any shame for -- I feel stupid and I feel reckless and weak for having allowed my sexuality to be
exposed this way. But I don't feel any shame whatsoever. And neither do I think I should.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: And you write that hiding crushed his soul, but it also fueled his creativity. How so?
SANGHERA: Absolutely. I mean, you've got to remember the fact that George Michael wrote two hit songs called "Freedom," you know, and so many of his
lyrics were some father figure where he talks about love being a crime. You know, his lyrics show that he was a man desperate to be to be honest about
himself and that made him miserable.
[13:30:00]
But also, you know, it's the oldest story in the history of art. Repression can lead to great creativity. So, he gave us amazing songs, but it left him
pretty miserable for quite a long time.
GOLODRYGA: Tonight the Music Seems So Loud," for those who don't know where that lyric comes from. Of course, it is from "Careless Whisper," a
song that he wrote when he was 17 years old on top of a deck of a bus on his way to a DJ gig. Why did you choose this line in particular as a title
for your book?
SANGHERA: I just feel that I think it captures his ambiguity because there's joy there and there's sadness in that song as well. But also -- you
know, and then also everyone absolutely knows it. But that song is so important. He was just 17 when he wrote it. Also, it captures his
perfectionism because he famously auditioned nearly a dozen saxophone players to play that famous sax solo in the middle of it. And he was barely
out of his teens and he fired some of the most famous saxophone players in the world.
And it just goes to show you how even though he couldn't play music himself and couldn't read music, he was a genius. And to do that at the age of 17
is just incredible. I don't know what you were doing at that age, but I wasn't writing "Careless Whisper."
GOLODRYGA: I definitely was not writing songs like "Careless Whisper." I just remember vividly the music video on that boat, on the yacht. And it
was cheating on the love of his life, right, and then being caught and then trying to redeem himself and apologize to his ex-girlfriend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: He wrote a number, a number of his song, most of his songs, actually. And this goes back to our previous conversation about not getting
the credit that he deserved in terms of his brilliant writing style and skills and creativity. How many songs did he write?
SANGHERA: Actually, he wasn't particularly productive in that it's below 100 songs he ever wrote. The thing is, he sometimes sang them, wrote them,
produced them, arranged them, played every single instrument. I mean, "Last Christmas," he does everything on that song and on "Everything She Wants."
The engineer offered to play the sleigh bells and he said, no, I think I'll do those too.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANGHERA: It's a bit odd that he was seen as this kind of boy band member when actually he was this Stanley Kubrick style kind of control freak who
often did everything on these hits that became not only international number ones are still being played 40 years later.
GOLODRYGA: In the world of songwriting, as you said, he only wrote less than 100. And I know that he, while respecting other artists, also envied
them. You look at Prince, who -- and you and your book, note how many songs he wrote. We just lost the legend, Dolly Parton, who is said to have
written over 3,000 songs.
Talk about his relationship with other artists at the time, some of the most famous in the world, whether it's Elton John, who he had a famous duet
with, and Prince and Michael Jackson, Madonna. How did he view them?
SANGHERA: Yes, that's an interesting thing. I mean, he's a man who was as famous for his cover versions and his duets as his own music. So, even
though he was a white man from Finchley in North London, he ended up doing duets with some of the most famous black artists in history. Stevie Wonder,
Mary J. Blige, Ray Charles. And I think that's because even though he sang soul music, he did it in a way that was very respectful. And he didn't try
to compete with Aretha Franklin when he did a duet with her. He just did his own thing and she did her thing.
And you could tell he was a fan as well as, you know, someone who wanted to make records with these people. And yes, the way he covered music was
incredible. I mean, some of the songs that he covered became more famous as cover versions than the originals. I mean, the duet he did with Elton John,
"Don't Let the Sun Go Down on Me," even Elton said that he had improved the song.
And now, when Elton sings that song at concerts, the audience often do the ad lib parts where, you know, where George said Mr. Elton John and
introduced Elton on stage. The song is now seen through the prism of George. And he was a great interpreter of other people's music.
GOLODRYGA: Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Elton John, that that is the introduction, because I hear the --
SANGHERA: That's the line. Yes.
GOLODRYGA: I listen to that song all the time and in that video. You never met him. Your first dance at your wedding was that duet from George and
Aretha Franklin, "I Knew You Were Waiting for Me." You said that if you could have told him what he meant to you, you'd want it to sound something
like this book.
[13:35:00]
SANGHERA: Yes. I mean, I had several opportunities to meet him and I always legged it. And I think it's because I knew what celebrity had done
to his life. But also, when you -- when the music means so much, you don't want to have an awful encounter, which means you can't enjoy that music
anymore. So, either I wanted to have a 10-hour meeting with him or I wanted nothing at all.
And also, to be honest, I just thought I didn't realize he was going to die. And so, I thought the opportunity would eventually arise. And sadly,
it never did.
GOLODRYGA: He died on Christmas Day 10 years ago. But you also in your writing say you weren't necessarily surprised that he ultimately died
because he was a lifelong or for many decades a functioning addict. Just talk about the demons and in ways how he's been able how he was able to
mask that and how he was able to overcome it, too.
SANGHERA: Yes. When he died, people were surprised. But I don't think we should have been because there had been 12 years of incidents that being
he'd gone to prison, he'd been arrested for with drugs on his person, including crack. You know, he'd been in hospital with pneumonia. He'd been
rehabbed for a year. So, if that happened to someone in life, you wouldn't be surprised if they passed away.
But with George, he was always so articulate in front of a camera. He was also always funny. And I think he'd survived other scandals and crises. So,
we expected him to survive these ones. But ultimately, it's interesting that you mentioned Prince, you know, Michael Jackson, Madonna. These are
the people as famous as George in the late '80s. And all of them, apart from Madonna, have passed away, I think, for very similar reasons at a very
similar age, because I think that level of fame is fundamentally unsurvivable.
GOLODRYGA: I think people will walk away from reading this book or watching this interview and start listening to George Michael music again.
I hope that they do that. Did you walk away from two years of research appreciating him more or perhaps a little deflated? Because anytime you
idolize someone, you're always reminded that they, like everyone else, are only human.
SANGHERA: To be honest, I thought I wouldn't like him so much at the end, but I liked him even more because I think despite his intense fame and, you
know, Princess Diana was in love with him, that's how crazy his fame was. But he kept it quite real. And he didn't live a house like Michael Jackson
or Prince in this mansion in the middle of nowhere. He lived on a house where when you open the front door, you're on the street.
And for at least 10 years, he led quite a normal life and he had very healthy relationships. He had real friends that went back to his teens. And
I think he was a proper, real person with contradictions. And that at the end of it made him made me love him even more.
GOLODRYGA: Well, 10 years after his death, he's everywhere. Taylor Swift sampling father figure, "Last Christmas," number one on TikTok again.
You've compared him to Drake, soft boy. Gen Z seems to be realizing the talent here. I appreciate you writing this book. Thank you for making my
summer. And I want that T-shirt in my size as well.
SANGHERA: I'll get you one. And it's so great to talk to an American George Michael fan. Amazing.
GOLODRYGA: There are lots of us. Trust me. Sathnam, thank you. Appreciate the time.
SANGHERA: Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: Coming up, Syria is taking a major step towards unity after years of brutal civil war. We revisit Christian's conversation with
President Ahmed al-Sharaa.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:40:00]
AMANPOUR: We turn now to a major step towards Syria's unity. The Kurdish- led Syrian Democratic Forces, or SDF, have announced their dissolution, saying the group will now integrate into Syria's state institutions. The
U.S.-backed SDF controlled large parts of northeastern Syria and led the fight against ISIS there.
It's more good news for President Ahmed al-Sharaa. Earlier this week, the U.S. removed Syria from its list of state sponsors of terrorism. The move
will reopen Syria to the International Community, offering a badly needed economic boost after nearly 14 years of civil war.
When Christiane spoke with President al-Sharaa at the Doha Forum in December, he reflected on how far his country has come and his journey from
Al-Qaeda militant to president.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: You, Mr. President, have brought Syria out of its international isolation. You've been here,
you've been there, you've been in the White House, you've been at the U.N. You have been all over the place.
Let's start by asking you whether you believe that Syria is fully into and integrated into the International Community and whether you have hope that
your economy is on the way to being fixed.
AHMED AL-SHARAA, SYRIAN PRESIDENT (voice-over): Quite frankly, Syria has been through a number of serious phases over the past 100 years,
particularly over the past 60 years. Syria was living in a strong and extreme isolation and it was living through a stifling economic embargo.
The policies of the former regime actually prompted the majority of regional players and international players to shy away from Syria.
This time last year, yes, you were at the Doha Forum and we were getting ready to storm Damascus and we probably changed the plans for the Doha
Forum back then as we were advancing militarily on Damascus. Over the past year, Syria managed to regain a large number of its regional and
international relations and ties. And I think we have gone beyond the rapprochement phase and everything we promised, I believe, that we've kept
since we entered Damascus. And this has managed to build trust between us and a large number of regional international players.
I believe we are definitely on the right path. Every single step we have taken has helped the national interest of Syria and we have regained our
regional and international status, which is quite significant. And we went from being a country that exported crises to a country where we have an
actual hope of delivering stability and being a living model for regional stability in the region, particularly if you look at the tensions that are
happening across the region.
And I believe the world has quickly realized this opportunity and the world has started working with Syria immediately in order to benefit from Syria's
status when it comes to regional stability and Syria's influence over stability in the region.
AMANPOUR: As you said, you're surrounded by a load of countries which potentially may not have any interest in your stability. Let's say Israel.
I've talked to several officials here and before I got here. As we know, Israel continues military operations on your country and it has demanded, I
think, you can correct me if I'm wrong, sort of a demilitarized zone all the way from Damascus to the border. There are those who don't believe that
Israel has an interest in a unified Syria. What do you think Israel's objectives are in your country?
AL-SHARAA (through translator): Israel, in managing its crises in the region, often exports crises to other countries and tries to run away from
the horrifying massacres it committed in Gaza. And it does so by attempting to export crises.
[13:45:00]
Israel has become a country that is in a fight against ghosts. They justify everything using their security concerns and they take October 7th and
extrapolate it to everything that is happening around them.
I believe that since we arrived in Damascus, we sent positive messages regarding regional peace and stability and we've said very frankly that
Syria will be a country of stability and we are not concerned in being a country that exports conflict, including to Israel. However, in return,
Israel has met us with extreme violence and Syria has suffered massive violations of our airspace.
AMANPOUR: Now, I want to talk about some of the concerns from inside your country. Look, I was at an event the other night for Syria in London. And
one of the main speakers said the fall of Assad marks a new dawn for Syria. It's not just the end of our struggle, it is the beginning of a different
chapter, one where we are finally allowed to hope, to imagine recovery, and to speak openly about the country we want to build.
So, let's speak openly, because it's not just the Israeli attacks and other neighbors that you have issues with, but you have an issue with internal
unity, and there seems to be tribal minority fragmentation, and that's a kind word, and a lot of fear inside your country.
AL-SHARAA (through translator): On the contrary, I believe Syria is living through its best days. We are talking about a country that's aware, that's
conscious. And there is not a single country in the world without domestic issues. And there's not an authority in the world that receives unanimous
approval from its people.
As you're very well aware, roughly 100 years ago, modern Syria was established. And we went through a number of phases, particularly the pre-
independence phase, and then a number of coup d'etat, followed by the regime that ruled over Syria over the past 60 years.
And so, over the past couple of years, the Syrian people simply did not know each other well. During the revolution, there was a lot of mixing and
mingling amongst the various factions and communities in Syria. And we actually inherited a lot of conflicts and a lot of differences from the old
regime because they used to use confessions against each other.
However, ever since we took over, we actually resorted to pardoning a large number of people and a large number of factions so that we can build a
sustainable, safe, and secure future for the Syrian people, and so that we can secure another opportunity for the Syrian people to get to know each
other. In order to do that, we engaged a lot of factions and communities in the national dialogue and in the government.
So, a lot of measures that we did helped calm the situation down because in a lot of countries that see conflicts, there's the post-conflict cycle that
often lasts longer than the war. So, we tried to avoid all of this by taking a series of measures, and the majority of these measures were
successful.
However, let us also be realistic, Syria -- is Syria required to obtain 100 percent unanimity, the Syrian government? This doesn't occur even in
advanced countries that are living through relative stability. However, Syria has moved from a one regime to another that does not resemble it at
all following the success of a popular revolution. Of course, there were people who were damaged because they were benefiting from the former
regime, and we are trying to manage things.
Over the past year, we delivered a number of significant achievements. Of course, there were some issues that are completely unacceptable to us, and
we are working on holding those who caused them and who perpetrated them accountable. However, once again, I believe that Syria is on a positive
path. It is tending towards stability.
We also have economic growth that is gradually taking shape, and we are seeing the first indications of this economic growth. Additionally, the
service environment has improved over the past year. People were receiving an hour and a half of electricity per day, and now we have reached 12 to 14
hours per day.
Hopefully, this year, we will be self-sufficient in terms of electricity, and we are constantly working on developing our services. So, we are moving
to a completely different economic environment, and I believe the investments that we managed to attract will greatly help us achieve
stability.
AMANPOUR: You are, I guess, the first democrat with a small d who says you want to have participatory government, you want to have rights for
everybody, and you want Syria to be a nation of laws and civil society. That's hard, it's very hard.
There are a lot of people who are wondering whether you do actually -- because you know in this part of the world, some people get into power and
stay forever.
[13:50:00]
Do you see elections as a means to an end for your nation, or is it about, you know, staying for a long time and consolidating all the power you can?
I'm just saying because that's what happens in this part of the world a lot.
AL-SHARAA (through translator): The Syrian system is based on elections. Maybe elections were used in the wrong way, let's say, in the previous
times, and I do not believe we are ready right now to undertake elections, parliamentary elections, but still we did this in a way that is compatible
with the transition phase.
And I think that the principle of people choosing their leaders is a basic principle. It is even a part of our religion in Islam. Rulers have to gain
the satisfaction of the majority of people in order to rule properly. So, this is what we believe in, and I think that this is the suitable path for
Syria.
I think that Syria should not be -- or building Syria, should not be linked to people or individuals, but rather institutions. This is a challenge for
the four or five years to come, because we are rebuilding the country, rebuilding our laws, redrafting our laws, while relying on the rich
cultural heritage of Syria that dates back to thousands of years. So, I think that Syria will move forward on this path, and it is a healthy and
good path.
Building institutions in Syria will guarantee the continuity of the state, not relying on people, because a person can fall sick, they can die. So,
you cannot link a whole people to one person. That is very risky. Even developed countries that still have kingdoms today have their systems,
their institutional systems. So, it is not wrong for a country to be a kingdom, but Syria is in a different place, it is a republic.
So, whether it is a kingdom or a republic, the important part is to have an institutional system that does not rely on people.
AMANPOUR: As you know, you have a past of being a terrorist. I mean, you worked for al-Qaeda. What do you say to people in this room, in foreign
capitals, about where your heart and your mind and your allegiance is now? We see that in parts of Syria, not only, you know, the T word, but also the
Islamic caliphate. OK, there's no Islamic caliphate in Syria. Women seem to be fairly liberated in quite a lot of the areas.
Where do you see your history and how you deal with this country going forward in terms of the rights of women? You know, what would you say to
maybe some guests sitting in this room who have yet to fully empower and some who absolutely deny women's rights?
AL-SHARAA (through translator): Terrorists, in my opinion, are those that kill innocent people, Children and women and that use illegitimate means to
harm people. If we try to extrapolate this description on several countries in the world, we find that the number of victims in Gaza, 60,000 people,
most of them are innocent.
The Syrian regime during 14 years has killed more than 1 million person in Syria. And until now, you have 2,000 and 50,000 disappeared persons with
their destinies unknown or their fate unknown. We have liberated all prisons, but we still do not know anything about these people. And this
person is not called a terrorist or this regime is not called a terrorist. We saw wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, all of those that were killed were
innocent. And it is the killers that describe others as terrorists. So, I think that after 25 years, people are now more aware about who is a real
terrorist and who deserves to be called a terrorist.
Now, on a personal level, I have never harmed a civilian. I fought on several fronts and I fought for more than 20 years with honor. But I think
that reality prevailed, or the truth prevailed at the end, and people now know that this description is not accurate. That is why I am no longer
listed as a terrorist by the Security Council.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[13:55:00]
GOLODRYGA: President al-Sharaa hailed Syria's removal from the state sponsor of terrorism blacklist, saying that it allows Syria to move into a
new space of development and reconstruction. But while progress has been made since the end of the war, Syrians increasingly are voicing frustration
with the soaring cost of energy and a scuttling local economy. The path to stability for Syria is still long ahead.
And that is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can always
catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media. Thanks so much for watching, and goodbye from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
