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Amanpour
Interview with Mayor Zohran Mamdani (D-NY); Interview with Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez; Interview with Singer-songwriter Sara Bareilles; Interview with "Good Grief" Director Josh Alexander. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired September 22, 2026 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR ZOHRAN MAMDANI, (D-NY): You can hold very disparate opinions and also be able to sit down because that is what this work demands of us. If I
was only willing to speak with people who agreed with me all the time, I would be sitting at home looking in a mirror.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: The mayor known around the world from building bridges with Trump to standing firm against Netanyahu. America's media landscape, the
midterms, and the future of his city. My exclusive interview with Zohran Mamdani at New York City Hall.
And --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PEDRO SANCHEZ, SPANISH PRIME MINISTER: There's a temptation of leaders to work in small circles only with like-minded partners. So, we advocate for
the contrary. We need to open the scope. We need to strengthen our collective action.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- as world leaders gather at the United Nations, I speak to Spain's Prime Minister, Pedro Sanchez, about the challenges facing Europe
in an increasingly chaotic world.
Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARA BAREILLES, SINGER-SONGWRITER: My processing as a writer is to sort of take these things that I don't know how to metabolize and try to
purposefully put them somewhere.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- "Good Grief," loss, and healing is told through music with singer-songwriter Sara Bareilles and John Alexander, director of a new
documentary about her songwriting process.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour at the United Nations, and world leaders are gathering here behind me. President Trump
from the podium again threatened Iran, saying that it faced a choice between making a deal to end the war or annihilation.
But when it came to allies, he was more subdued this year than last. Instead of warning them that they would all go to hell for their policies,
today Trump was slightly warmer to some of his long-standing partners, those who he spent all year alienating. And for their part, many of these
partners now look to defend their own interests from Trump instead of bending the knee.
So, Brazil's president, Lula, told this program just yesterday that Trump can no longer act like an emperor towards other nations. And of course,
Canada is looking for new alliances. New mini-blocs are forming around the world to defend multilateralism.
There is one politician, though, who's managing to maintain a working relationship with this president while also strongly disagreeing on policy.
He is Zohran Mamdani, the Democratic socialist and first Muslim mayor of this city. Also, he's known the world over.
Right after meeting with Trump here in New York, both of them are New Yorkers, of course, he joined me for an exclusive interview at City Hall.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Mr. Mayor, welcome to our program.
MAYOR ZOHRAN MAMDANI, (D-NY): Thank you so much for coming. It's such a pleasure to have you here.
AMANPOUR: Thank you. Shortly before we sat down, you were meeting with the president, and you had a press availability, and so we were able to see you
and monitor closely. It looks like the president is on his best behavior when he's around you. He is dignified, polite, speaks gently and of
substance. It seems like he quite likes you. It's quite a rare thing for a leader to have that kind of encounter with this president.
So, I just want to know whether you have a trick, whether you have a sort of a way of dealing with him. What do you talk about of substance behind
closed doors?
MAMDANI: Well, I think of the many differences of opinion the president and I have, we have one thing that brings us together, which is a love of
New York City. And we are both New Yorkers, and what I focus on in those conversations with the president is how we can make life better for the
people who call this city their home.
And so, today, when we sat down for that meeting at Gracie Mansion, there were a number of things that I wanted to bring up to the president. We
spoke about Sunnyside Yard. The potential for building 12,000 new homes in a city where a lack of housing is the number one driver of the cost-of-
living crisis. We spoke, as you heard the president say, about the importance of providing stability to Haitian New Yorkers. And as the
president said, I feel very strongly about this. I brought this up.
[13:05:00]
And I did so because Haitian New Yorkers are every bit a part of this city as myself and those who work in City Hall, and that I've heard about this
not just from them but also from developers, from hospital executives, from leaders of the industry that power our city's economy about their concern
about the lack of stability in their lives.
AMANPOUR: And you're basically referring directly to the TPS.
MAMDANI: Yes.
AMANPOUR: The protection for the Haitians and others, which has been annulled and they are in the deportation wave. For many on the outside, it
looks like a brutal policy from the White House, the deportations, you know, the hounding of anybody who looks a different color, whether they
happen to have their papers or not.
And I wonder, how does he engage on that particular human issue when you as the mayor of this city, which is so diverse, talk to him about it?
MAMDANI: Well, what I appreciate is that in that conversation, the president not only heard me but is clearly considering what it is that I
said. And it's of immense importance to the city at large and that's why it is something that I've spoken to the president about over the phone, I've
spoken to him about in person as we did today.
And whether it is TPS for Haitian New Yorkers or it is Sunnyside Yard, the conversation always comes back to what are the things New Yorkers need. And
as I said over the course of the campaign and even while I've been in office as the mayor, that I'm willing to speak to anyone and everyone who
has the ability to deliver for New Yorkers. And we know that President Trump has that ability, also has that interest.
AMANPOUR: I just wondered if you thought that you might get to this working relationship when he was calling you, you know, a lunatic radical,
probably a communist during the campaign, you were calling him a fascist amongst other things. Things have changed.
MAMDANI: Well, I think we've both said that we'd be willing to have a conversation if it could benefit the people of the city. And to me, you can
hold very disparate opinions and also be able to sit down because that is what this work demands of us. If I was only willing to speak with people
who agreed with me all the time, I would be sitting at home looking in a mirror.
AMANPOUR: I would be remiss if I didn't bring up the big thing that's roiling the media industry and frankly, could potentially change the media
landscape in this nation and affect everybody, including New Yorkers, i.e., the consolidation of media power under one new merger. And that was
announced a settlement today.
What do you think about that in terms of how that might affect people who want to get news from various different places, independent news? Do you
feel as mayor that it's something that affects you and affects this city?
MAMDANI: Yes. I think it affects the city. It is something that leaves me incredibly concerned. And while I so appreciate the valiant efforts of our
attorney general, Tish James, in fighting for protections for the workers here in New York City who create so much of the film that we love and
adore, I'm also incredibly concerned by the federal government's decision to allow such a merger to proceed.
Because as you said, this is the consolidation of media. This is part and parcel of why so many Americans have a diminishing faith in media. And it
speaks to a larger corporate consolidation across so many sectors and industries that drive up prices, reduce the breadth of opinion that is
shared on these platforms, and leave us with a population that look to these things as examples of why they can't trust what it is that they see
on TV.
AMANPOUR: And of course, there's the other issue that was brought up in the press availability with the president and yourself regarding his ban on
CNN, Politico, and MS NOW, which as you know, the three organizations are pursuing the case in court. They believe it violates the First Amendment
and our right as a free and independent press. You know, you -- OK. Tell us what you said when you were asked that question.
MAMDANI: What I said is that I believe in a free press, and I believe in the importance of engaging in questions from all, no matter whether they
are based on a compliment or on a critique. And even in our press availability today, you saw that we spoke to representatives from CNN, from
MS NOW, from Politico, from Crain's, from The City Reporter, from a wide variety. And that is something that will continue under my administration,
because I believe it's a critical part of the Fourth Estate being able to do its job.
AMANPOUR: And yet, the president couldn't get off that high horse, and he did keep telling the assembled press that it was fake news. It was, you
know, all the rest of it, deliberate, you know, propaganda, as he said, against him.
I guess my question is, as a public servant, as an elected official, do you have to develop a thick skin? I mean, how do you take, if you do take,
negative criticism? I mean, you've had a pretty charmed -- certainly as mayor, you've had a lot of good publicity. You seem to really touch a nerve
in this country, and around the world, actually.
[13:10:00]
But what if people come and start complaining about the things you do like they do on President Trump's policy?
MAMDANI: Well, I would say you know you could pick up a copy of the New York Post almost every day of the week and you'd find me there on the cover
and I'll still take questions from the New York Post because I think that that's also what it means to be in New York City politics, to engage with
New Yorkers. If I were to shield myself from critique then I would have to ask if I was actually living in New York City because even when some people
give you compliments in New York City it sounds like a criticism.
AMANPOUR: As you know much of the world has had to adjust, you know sort of move and shake and try to figure out how to work around the President's
policies to the rest of the world. You've been meeting some of the world leaders. What do you think is the most important thing for New York in
terms of leadership around the world right now? You spoke to President Lula today.
MAMDANI: It was, I have to say, an incredible experience to speak with President Lula directly and to have the chance to tell him of just how much
of an inspiration he has been to so many of us on the left and how he has shown what it can look like to deliver for working people using the power
of political office.
And even before I had the opportunity to meet him I spent a few days actually at the U20, which is where we hosted mayors from across the world
and I sat down with the mayor of Paris, Barcelona, Amsterdam, Milan, Rome, so many others, Freetown and what I really left with was such an
appreciation of the importance of not just the conversation but the commitment to tackling problems that are far larger than any one city and
we signed a communique together that was focused on tackling housing affordability and the lack thereof in our cities, the climate crisis and
the question of migration with a real commitment to humanity at the heart of it. And I came out of those conversations with ideas that have, things
that have worked elsewhere.
AMANPOUR: Do you think the president, he was asked to do that with you, gets the notion of affordability which is plaguing so many people in this
country and around the world?
MAMDANI: Well, I'll leave that to the president. What I will say is that to me it is not enough to just talk about affordability, we have to
diagnose why is it not a fact of life for New Yorkers, the number one reason in this city is housing. And so, to me I said it on the campaign, I
will do everything I can to lower the cost of rent and a lot of that comes from building more housing because what we've seen in this city is it's too
hard to build the kind of housing that's necessary to make a dent on these prices, but one way you can do it is to follow the example of Fiorello La
Guardia and FDR, have a federal partnership, that's what we're looking to do with Sunnyside Yard.
AMANPOUR: The midterms are coming up, again it's not just important for this country, but the whole world is looking at it for direction of travel,
what happens to the United States after the midterms? And everybody understands that you so far have been a bit of a kingmaker, the people who
you have backed have won in many primaries and others, democratic socialists of America have won in other key states, key cities.
We in Europe have this thing called social democrats, it's not a big deal. They make, you know, coalition governments and they are in office and they
govern and they have done for decades. Is a social democrat a democratic socialist? I mean why do you think people here are afraid of it and plan to
weaponize it in these midterms? Crazy communists, you know, radical left, the whole lot.
MAMDANI: Well, I think the attempt at fear mongering is a long sad fact of American political life for many, many years. You know, when social
security was first introduced it was claimed that it was an attempt to sovietize the economy. And we saw similar things with so much of what is
embraced now as a fact of life in the country that we hold dear as our own.
And I've seen, you know, over the course of my time in office I've been proud to describe myself as a democratic socialist when anyone asks of my
politics. And I've also found that more New Yorkers are less interested in how I describe myself and whether there's room for them in that
description. They want to know does that mean you will fight for me? Because here in New York City there has been a fading sense of relevance of
politics to the struggles of working people and I can tell you that to me what democratic socialism is it's to transform democracy from an ideal or a
value into something material. It's to extend it from the ballot box into the rest of people's lives.
And so, in our city we're focused on what we call pothole politics where we've paved more than two hundred thousand potholes in nine months. 747
lane miles in that same period of time from here to Nashville is the distance. And we've done that while delivering the first ever free child
care seats for two-year-olds.
AMANPOUR: Look, other mayors have filled potholes but maybe other mayors have not been as clever on social media as, you know, leaning into their
connection with their voters. You are a sort of a different kind of politician.
[13:15:00]
First of all, I think you're one who is joyful, is smiling. You're a little bit like the Alcaraz of politicians. You know he shows that he's so joyful
on every tennis court. Do you think the way, the demeanor of a politician is important in order to be able to sell policies or give, what inspires
your good humor?
MAMDANI: Well, I have to credit my late grandmother who raised me with a notion that smiling was a good thing. It was also what it meant to show
your love to those around you. And to me it's less of putting on a demeanor. It's more about being yourself. Because what people are tired of
is a sense of politics as artifice. People want to know that it is actually real and that it's relevant.
And what I've found is the reason that potholes are so important to fill, it's not just to make a New Yorker's ride smoother as they're driving
through the city. It's also that if they look outside their window and they see a pothole that hasn't been filled, how would they ever believe that you
could deliver universal child care if you can't deliver on the smallest concern in their life?
So, we talk about here in City Hall that there's no task too small, no problem too big. And to me, I also have the greatest job in the world. So,
it is a natural thing to smile when you get to be the mayor of New York City, especially in a year where the Knicks have won their first
championship in 53 years.
AMANPOUR: And World Cup matches and I mean, everything is pretty sporty.
MAMDANI: Yes. One day football will come home. But it didn't this year.
AMANPOUR: Yes, yes. It didn't this year. But you're an Arsenal fan.
MAMDANI: I am an Arsenal fan. Although this was a tough weekend. We lost.
AMANPOUR: I haven't looked. Because we're an Arsenal family at my house.
MAMDANI: We were soundly defeated by Brighton this weekend.
AMANPOUR: I'm very upset about that. Very. But hopefully, they'll climb back up.
MAMDANI: I hope not to see a seagull any time soon.
AMANPOUR: OK. Now, regarding your politics and your king making abilities as has been demonstrated here.
MAMDANI: Right. I must --
AMANPOUR: OK. I'm just saying it.
MAMDANI: I know. But the real -- there's one king of New York and that's Jalen Brunson.
AMANPOUR: OK.
MAMDANI: So, I would give that to him.
AMANPOUR: All right. But, you know, what I mean. The thing is other Democrats are concerned. Not everybody believes that America is ready on a
national level to necessarily elect people who are on the left. It's usually conventional wisdom says that it's more the moderates who tend to
get the national election and the vote.
Are you concerned that this might be an issue beyond the primaries? That yes, you energize, Dr. El-Sayed energizes, all the others who I'm not going
to name energize on a local level. They brought young people in, you know, for the first time in a long time. But will it translate on a national
level? And will the midterms not just be a referendum on Trump but a referendum on the Democratic Socialists of America?
MAMDANI: I think this will absolutely translate on a national level, and the reason that I believe that is while we are an exceptional city as the
greatest city in the world, we also know that the struggles that New Yorkers are facing are the struggles that working class Americans are
facing across the country. I often say that there's only one majority in this country, it's the working class and their inability to afford housing,
child care, even public transit. That is something that goes beyond any one city.
And when we think about what are the most successful political programs looked like in this country, one of them comes back to the New Deal. And if
you look at the words of FDR and you read those quotes today, you would be told the same things, that this surely couldn't work on a national level
and yet in fact that was a moment in time when the Democratic Party was not only synonymous with workers but was also incredibly popular with those
that it was seeking to support.
AMANPOUR: And do you think they've lost it?
MAMDANI: I do think it is a sad fact that to find ambition in the Democratic Party we often have to look to history books and I'm hopeful
that that is changing in this moment, that we understand that it's not enough to simply stand up to federal policies we disagree with, we also
have to stand up for an entire working class that has been left behind by politics that has come to think of politics as a hobby only certain people
can afford.
AMANPOUR: Do you think you'll go on the road to campaign for some of the people, Democrats, Democratic Socialists, running for election in the
midterms?
MAMDANI: I can tell you right now when it comes to the road my focus is potholes on the road here in New York City.
AMANPOUR: So, no Michigan.
MAMDANI: But I will say that the effects of what happened at the national level, they have an impact on New York City. Whether we have a Democratic
House or a Democratic Senate it has an impact on New York City, and I am hopeful that this November we will see successes across the country.
AMANPOUR: This is what the speaker of the house, Mike Johnson, put on X in August about Dr. El-Sayed's victory in Michigan, Democrats now openly
express disdain for America and embrace the failed, dangerous, deadly path of COMMUNISM, which is in all caps. We must take a stand and fight, in all
caps, to protect the greatest nation in the history of the world from being overrun by mini-Mamdanis.
[13:20:00]
MAMDANI: I'm only 5'11". So, I guess I would consider myself a little mini. But look, I think that he would rather talk about me than talk about
the fact that so much of the reason that cost of living is getting exacerbated is because of current federal policy. And what I see in Dr. El-
Sayed is a focus. You know, you hear it from him. He talks about money out of politics, money in your pocket, Medicare for all. That gets to the heart
of what so many Americans are worried about. They're worried about the corporatization of our politics. They're worried about their inability to
afford health care. And they're worried about their ability to afford day- to-day dignities of life.
And what we need to see across the country, a country that we all love and care for, is one that working people can afford. Because take a look at
this city. It's the wealthiest city in the history of the world. And one in four New Yorkers are living in poverty. If you look at Michigan, you will
find many working people who feel the same, that no matter how hard they work in a day, they are still behind at the end of it. That has to change.
And if we don't change that, we're going to lose the soul of this country, which is the working person that helps to power it each and every day.
AMANPOUR: You said earlier that you want to work for everybody, for all New Yorkers. And that's your job. And that's your belief. As you know,
there's a lot of worry and fear still amongst the Jewish population and the Jewish community of New York and perhaps around the country, very concerned
about certain things.
Now, we have videos. We see you in Jewish neighborhoods. You're being, you now, welcomed by Hasidic communities, Orthodox. You're also being heckled
by some. And the time you said in an interview that you would look into or order the arrest of Benjamin Netanyahu, who has been indicted by the
International Criminal Court for what happened in Gaza, even some of your supporters said you became a bridge breaker then instead of a bridge
builder.
In retrospect, do you think that that was a mistake to talk about arresting? It wasn't in your purview. Was it a mistake? Do you think you
added to the fears of the Jewish community?
MAMDANI: Well, I have been clear about the way that I see the world. And I always owe New Yorkers that honesty. And when it comes to Benjamin
Netanyahu, I have described him as I believe him to be a war criminal and an architect of a horrific genocide of the Palestinian people. And I've
also been honest with New Yorkers that New York City does not have the authority to carry out the ICC's warrant, which, as you said, has been
issued for Prime Minister Netanyahu.
And that I do believe that that is something that should be honored, because what we want to see, and we've been talking about this today, is a
faith in our politics, a faith in accountability. I recently met the mayor of The Hague here at U20, and the key thing he kept emphasizing to all of
us was the importance of the rule of law. And if the International Criminal Court deems someone worthy of an arrest because of a violation of those
laws, then who are we to say that anyone should be above that? And I think very clearly that everyone should be held accountable to it.
AMANPOUR: You've probably read that -- well, you know, that the current Trump administration is trying to destroy the International Criminal Court,
in the words of Secretary Rubio, brick by brick, dismantle it. And they're making great inroads into doing it. And it may happen. They may completely
sanction the institution. They've already sanctioned individuals because of these indictments. And it is the only institution that actually tries to
hold people, individuals, responsible for the most heinous crimes. And actually, it's all about individual responsibility. So, there's no
collective guilt.
Do you worry? Does it matter to this city, to this state, to this country if the ICC is destroyed?
MAMDANI: Yes. Yes, I would worry about that. Because if we talk about the rule of law, if we talk about a belief in a world that is something more
than might equals right, then it means that we also have to protect these kinds of institutions. And I believe firmly not only in the existence of
the ICC as an institution, but also in the importance of the United States becoming a party to that same institution.
AMANPOUR: All right. We're out of allotted time. But I want to ask you one final question, because I've interviewed your father and I've interviewed
your mother because of her incredible films, Mira Nair. Did she have a big influence on you and your campaigning or the way you were able to be so
creative and to be so film-like about it, so visual?
MAMDANI: She absolutely did. And it is something I can never truly describe as the experience of having a mother who was also one of your
favorite film directors. And I've often said my favorite film is "Mississippi Masala."
[13:25:00]
And for many reasons, one of them being that I wouldn't be alive if it wasn't for it, because that's how my parents met. And one thing that my
mother has always said is, if we don't tell our own stories, no one else will.
And so, what I've hoped to do also in the politics that I'm a part of is to ensure that we are telling the stories that are often overlooked when it
comes to the halls of power. And so, often, those are the stories of working-class New Yorkers who have built the city, but are being pushed out
of it.
AMANPOUR: Mayor Zohran Mamdani, thank you very much indeed for being with us.
MAMDANI: Very welcome. Thank you so much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Really busy week for this mayor trying to build coalitions, not just in this country, but now around the world with leaders visiting his
city on behalf of people and what makes their lives better and more affordable.
Stay with us. We'll be right back after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: There are many challenges to be discussed in the halls and in the corridors in the building behind me. Europe faces many of them. And we
have been speaking, for instance, about the far-right, which is gaining ground in important E.U. powers like Germany, bolstered by immigration and
a rise in energy costs, amongst other things. And in Spain, it is a difficult moment for the prime minister, Pedro Sanchez, a long and leading
left-wing voice within the E.U.
His government is still grappling with the aftermath of an overwhelming influx of migrants into Ceuta, which is an area of Spain in Morocco, as we
discussed here just ahead of the summit starting.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Prime Minister Sanchez, welcome back to the program. This is yet again the annual summit, and it just seems there's a change of mood. On the
one hand, so many issues that who knows whether they're going to get solved. On the other hand, I get the feeling that leaders such as you and
others in the alliance are kind of getting fed up with the Trump method towards you all. Last year, he said you could all go to hell because of
your policies. What do you think this year?
PEDRO SANCHEZ, SPANISH PRIME MINISTER: Well, I think that if you take the example of Spain, you see that the economic growth in Spain is doing quite
well. Also, the employment creation and also the fight against inequality. So, there are policies that we are implementing in Spain, progressive
policies that deliver to normal people.
And when it comes to the U.N. summit, I think that there is a momentum where we all, our societies, not only governments, understand quite well
the importance of having multilateral and common responses to global challenges such as climate change or A.I. and the implications that we'll
have for our society.
AMANPOUR: And are you all sort of maybe not declaring it, but like Carney is doing, even like president Lula is doing, trying to figure out how to
get around the obstruction from the United States and the assault on alliances?
SANCHEZ: Yes. Well, I think that we have good examples of how can we move forward. For instance, at the G20 level with the South African presidency
back in 2025, we have other multilateral forums where you see that there are deliveries for our citizens. But again, I think it's very important to
strengthen the multilateral order and especially the U.N.
[13:30:00]
So, you know, in a way, we advocate not for a mini-lateralism, but maxi- lateralism, which means that perhaps there is a temptation of leaders to work in small circles only with like-minded partners. So, we advocate for
the contrary. We need to open the scope. We need to strengthen our collective action. And by the way, I think that we have a great opportunity
in this summit and also, of course, till the end of the year to appoint the first woman as secretary general of the U.N.
AMANPOUR: Do you think that it's going to happen?
SANCHEZ: I mean, we are working as the Spanish government. I think that half population, half leadership. And this is the time for the first woman
as secretary general of the U.N.
AMANPOUR: Obviously, still, the never-ending issue roiling politics, whether it's in the United States or in Europe, is immigration, migration.
You have just presided over what's generally seen as a disaster, the Ceuta disaster in a Spanish territory in Morocco, where tens of thousands, as we
all saw, rushed in and you had a very difficult time trying to calm it down. There are still, according to authorities, some maximum 15,000
migrants somehow wandering around Ceuta.
What did you guys do wrong? How can this happen overnight?
SANCHEZ: So, first of all, just to say that Ceuta and Melilla, there are two Spanish cities in Africa. So, there's not only Spanish cities, but also
the European border, a territorial border, a very hard border in Africa. So, I think it's important to ask for that solidarity when it comes to the
European Union. And unfortunately, we suffered the -- in solidarity of many of these governments during the crisis.
We showed that solidarity, for instance, in Lampedusa in Italy, when they suffered the migration crisis. We showed that solidarity in Greenland, when
other governments questioned the territorial integrity of Denmark and Greenland. So, we ask for that solidarity when it comes to Ceuta. So,
there's one angle, which is this European solidarity.
The second angle is our bilateral relationship with Morocco. I can tell you that over the last four -- eight years, we have developed a very positive
bilateral relationship with Morocco. We have asked Morocco for answers and actions, because it is clear for us that its border control mechanism
failed.
And the third angle is, how do we manage this migration crisis? So, we know and we understand quite well that the world is watching at us. And we will
show that security and order can be provided and guaranteed without -- or - - yes, not at the expense of human dignity. And this is what we are doing. We are recovering the normality in the city of Ceuta.
And at the same time, we are also providing the legal framework for those migrants who could have the right for international protection.
AMANPOUR: Your government has just declassified a whole load of documents.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Which appear to show, or do show, that actually you were all warned that there could have been this kind of crisis.
SANCHEZ: No. Actually, those documents show that there was no clear evidence that something like that will happen. And again, we are
investigating what happened those days back in July. But at the same time, we have asked Morocco for actions and also for answers, because it is also
clear that its border control failed.
But again, we need to have a positive relationship with Morocco, because we have this strategic partnership with Morocco. And at the same time, we have
to return most of these migrants to its country of origin, which is Morocco.
AMANPOUR: Again, there's some 15,000. So, you've got still a lot of work to do. Well, let me ask you --
SANCHEZ: Well, and we will do it. And we will do it with dignity.
AMANPOUR: What does that mean?
SANCHEZ: Because in Spain, it means that migrants are not cattle, but humans. And that is what we have to do as a great democracy and a great
country like Spain.
AMANPOUR: Do you think, because you had so much success with your migration policy over a period of years, and as you used to tell me, it
even helped propel the GDP, et cetera, and this is a really big stain on your record. But not only that, you can see the results of elections in
Europe right now, and it probably threatens your country as well, that migration, what they are able to use, the far-right, is winning them
elections. You've seen what's happened in Germany.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
AMANPOUR: You've seen even the German chancellor, an ally, say that this is a disaster. That's his words.
[13:35:00]
What happened in the Berlin elections. What happened in Saxony-Anhalt, AFD, you know.
SANCHEZ: But look what happens in Sweden in these last elections.
AMANPOUR: Yes, I know. I know.
SANCHEZ: So, what I'm trying to --
AMANPOUR: That's the minimum, though.
SANCHEZ: Exactly. But --
AMANPOUR: That's the minority right now.
SANCHEZ: No, no. But --
AMANPOUR: In Poland, in France, maybe in Spain. These right-wings --
SANCHEZ: Well, we will try to repeat a progressive majority in the next general elections. But what I'm trying to say is that I understand that
far-right feeds from legitimate anxieties of our societies. But then when they come to office, anger, it is transformed into deception, because at
the end of the day, they don't deliver.
So, this is something that we are already witnessing in some countries, and you see it in the general elections, for instance, in Sweden, also in the
Netherlands. So, we'll see what happens in the next years with the far- right. But from our progressive perspective, what we need to do is to deliver to common citizens, which means to deliver on minimum wage, to
deliver on labor rights and social rights, fight against inequalities. Of course, stand for gender equality. These are things that I -- my experience
as prime minister, also people understand and appreciate from their governments.
AMANPOUR: The big issue in Europe, obviously, is the Russia threat.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
AMANPOUR: One of the biggest issues is the Russia threat. And, you know, Putin has just had these elections. I know many people think it's highly --
well, it is highly stage managed. Some people think it's theatrical. But he will likely use it as a referendum on his war.
Do you think he's emboldened, or do you think he sees that there's no end, except for negotiations? He doesn't seem to see that right now. What do you
think President Trump should be saying to Volodymyr Zelenskyy of Ukraine when he meets him, or indeed the next time he meets Putin or talks to
Putin?
SANCHEZ: In my humble opinion, I think that Putin already lost this war. But he's not stopping. But in the beginning of the war, because it's four
years of war, in the beginning of the war, his plans were to invade and occupy all Ukraine. And this doesn't happen.
So, the point here is that not only the European Union, but also the United States, we need to stick behind Ukraine, providing all the capabilities
that they need to fight against the invasion. And this is something that we need to understand, all Western societies, also the world, because at the
end of the day, it's a clear violation of the, you know, territorial integrity, which is one of the main principles of the U.N. Charter. And
this is something that happens not only in Ukraine, it's also happening in the Middle East.
So, all in all, I think that avoiding double standards and providing that unity and capabilities, in this case to Ukraine, is a matter of, you know,
it's a very important aspect not only for Ukraine, but also for the security architecture of the European Union.
AMANPOUR: Prime Minister Sanchez, thank you very much indeed for joining us.
SANCHEZ: Always a pleasure being here. Thank you very much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And stay with CNN. We'll be right back after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[13:40:00]
AMANPOUR: Now, no one prepares you for the drama of life, the heartbreak of losing people you love, or the life you expected to live, or the
loneliness. The well-known American singer-songwriter Sara Bareilles has had a very difficult few years. Behind the glamour of her successful music
career, she has been dealing with personal battles, ranging from anxiety to mourning. Her new album and documentary are a testament to overcoming. She
and director Josh Alexander speak to Hari Sreenivasan about the journey right now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HARI SREENIVASAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Christiane, thanks. Sara Bareilles, Josh, Alexander, thank you both for joining us.
The name of the album and the documentary, "Good Grief," is a really fascinating look into the songwriting process. Sara, I want to start with
you. This is the first album that you're making in, what, seven, eight years, maybe more?
SARA BAREILLES, SINGER-SONGWRITER: Yes.
SREENIVASAN: There's a lot of grief that we're talking about and working through in some of the lyrics and also just how you're working. What was
behind it?
BAREILLES: A lot of loss and a lot of big transformative life experiences. I think starting with the pandemic in 2020 and then shortly followed by the
death of a very dear close friend, followed by the death of another very dear close friend, followed by the demise of democracy. There's so much to
grieve, so many things to grieve. It didn't feel exactly like a choice to create this record with this kind of thematic structure. However, that is
how it worked out.
I think it was a very organic unfolding of my processing as a writer is to sort of take these things that I don't know how to metabolize and try to
purposefully put them somewhere. And so, this collection of songs started to gather in 2020 and then it was completed in 2025. And we started
recording and invited Josh in to kind of bear witness to the experimentation around capturing this very raw, very tender material that
you write is pretty heavy stuff.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAREILLES: It's about loss and transition and change and what we let go of and a little bit of a free fall.
I think why I couldn't write was because I wasn't ready to be like honest. My best friend, he was diagnosed with stage four lung cancer at the end of
2019.
I love feeling.
My grief is just like cracked open right now. And I think that's what music does. It's like moving it around and you don't even know what's happening.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SREENIVASAN: So, Sara, this really kind of from almost the first scene, we are rushed into this idea that this is a group of people who know each
other, care about each other, haven't seen each other in quite some time, right? And you just jump right into some heavy conversations. There were
this kind of almost fly on the wall sort of moments where I don't know where the microphones were. I didn't know where the cameras were, but they
were really picking up a lot of just intimate conversation and lots of tears.
BAREILLES: Yes. And lots of laughter.
SREENIVASAN: Yes, yes.
BAREILLES: I do want to remind people that I think one of the great mysteries of grief is how much joy is also embedded in really in processing
grief, especially with other people. Yes. I invited some very beloved, trusted collaborators and a lot of artists. I've had a lot of artists reach
out to me after seeing the film and just saying how nice it is to get a chance to touch in on what it can be like in the studio.
It isn't off -- It isn't always like this, I should say. But when you have a kind of shorthand with your co-pilots and, you know, there is a kind of
mysticism around the making of music, there is something kind of unknowable and unforeseen that transpires or can transpire. And you sort of go in with
the hope that you're going to discover something alongside each other.
[13:45:00]
So, there's -- it's very thrilling and very vulnerable because, you know, that you're stepping into the unknown. And I knew that this material, which
was dealing with, you know, so much loss, a fertility struggle, death of friends, you know, just really hard material. I knew that it would have to
be in really capable, caring hands.
And that's what you get to see in this beautiful film is just these unbelievable artists who know when to make a joke or wrap their arms around
you or light a stick of Palo Santo and not say a single word. It's a really moving experience to grieve in community and to and to really experience
the transmutation of the of the emotion because of that community.
SREENIVASAN: Josh, what was it like for your crew and yourself and your team that was in the room where it was happening? And I wonder, you know, I
mean, did you -- did your crew end up talking about things in their own lives or bond in a different way than maybe a different type of documentary
that you've worked on where everybody kind of clocks in and clocks out?
JOSH ALEXANDER, DIRECTOR, "GOOD GRIEF": The whole thing felt like summer camp in the most remarkable way. And one of the things that Sara and I had
talked about before we started shooting was she had really talked me through her intentionality of who she was bringing that week. So, my
producing partner, Daniel, and I knew that we needed to bring people that would show up in the same way.
And if there's one lesson for me, that's such a huge takeaway from this film and from Sara's bravery and from this music. It's that and Sara talks
about as well, it's that grief needs to be witnessed. It's not something that can be metabolized alone. And so, who you ask to witness your grief
and then how you show up when you're witnessing someone else's grief is the key to the whole thing.
And so, my crew, all of us were on the exact same ride that they were on. And another thing, Sara and I decided that the crew and the band, we'd all
eat lunch together every day so that we all felt like we were there doing one project together. It wasn't like there was a separate film crew filming
this piece of art unfolding.
And so, those were just some of the things that we tried to do in the setting and in creating of the container that I think allowed all of us to
be experiencing the same thing. And these scenes would happen and we would take a 10-minute break and the crew would end off in a corner talking about
loss and grief and struggling to have children and all of these different things. So, we were on the same ride.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
BAREILLES: Maybe that stays on the G. Maybe the chorus pedals.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SREENIVASAN: When you watch all this footage and you remember your friendship with Sara before the film and after, what did you learn from
this that kind of leapt out at you, either about the process, about her?
ALEXANDER: One of the things that bowled me over that week is, and you see this in the film, you almost see no phones.
SREENIVASAN: Yes, that's right.
ALEXANDER: You know, everyone is just present. And there's a thing that you do a lot in a sound mix on a movie where you'll turn off all the labs
of everyone that's not speaking so you just hear, you get the cleanest dialogue on the person that's speaking. And so, me and my sound mixer in
the edit, we were doing that. And I realized something was missing. And I went back and re-turned on everyone's labs. And then you heard all this
active listening. People weren't just there. They were -- you heard them breathing. You heard them making mm sounds and et cetera. And you could
feel what it means to show up. And so, that's really what that whole week felt like.
And also, just the beauty in speaking the truth. I mean, Sara talks a lot about this, that recently, you know, Sara's been saying that she just wants
to speak the truth. And I think you see that in this film. There's a lot of falsity out there that we're all aggravating all the time now. So, to see
the bravery of people saying what they feel in the moment.
And also, that, you know, that on the other side of feeling into and speaking the truth around loss and grief, we think that it's going to be
suffering on the other side of that. But actually, there's joy. There's release. There's a softening of the heart. There's connection. So, I think
we all want and are hungry for a permission structure to feel this stuff and to speak it. So, then when you're invited into a container that allows
you to, it's the opposite of feeling bad. It's just joyful.
SREENIVASAN: Sara, I guess maybe a similar question for you. Early in the film you mentioned that you're a control freak. And here's a project where
there's going to be lots of stuff that you don't control. And I guess watching now the finished product, what did you learn about yourself on
where, you know, maybe you'd heard something about how you are, but then seeing it on camera, was it any different?
[13:50:00]
BAREILLES: That's a great question. I think the thing I am a control freak about is the truth telling. Because what I have learned, especially from
experiencing grief and really working to like process and understand what was happening, is that so much of our lives are based around this illusion
of control. And that we are really ultimately at the seat of it all. We are all in a free fall that we have no control over. We do not have control
over our lives or our, you know, what happens to us or the people we love to a terrifying degree.
So, the idea that I'm trying to like make something, anything, seems so young to me. Even a year later. I'm like, you can't -- there's so much
that's out of our control, but the thing that I feel really committed to and really dogged about is I expect people to tell me the truth. I'm
thinking about my working relationships and my personal relationships. I expect people to tell me the truth and I really work hard to tell them the
truth. Even when it's uncomfortable. I really want to live in a space that has as much clarity and understanding as is possible.
SREENIVASAN: You know, Josh, this does not feel when you're watching it like something that the record label kind of put out as a part of the
promotional tour. Is that sort of conscious in what you were trying to do? I mean, how did you make sure that --
ALEXANDER: Thank you for saying that. And it was fully conscious. You know, I think that there -- I think we've all gotten used to these certain
kind of benchmark genres now that have a lot of docs. There's a lot of slob bio docs. Some of them are beautiful, but a lot of them are hitting a lot
of these kind of cliches and these expectations.
And the whole intention of this was to try to -- and it's not new to me. It's borrowing from a beautiful, long tradition of verite music
documentaries, whether it's Scorsese's "The Last Waltz," the Aretha Franklin doc that came out a couple years ago, "Amazing Grace." I mean,
there's beautiful films. "Don't Look Back," the Dylan doc.
So, how do you show up and let the story unfold of its own volition, with its own velocity and its own unwinding and unfolding? And so, that was
always the intention.
SREENIVASAN: You're having pop up shows in different cities. You're on a concert tour, but it's almost like a collective release of whether it's
grief or joy. And it's all happening and they're using your music and they're talking about it online. And there's people coming back saying it
was such a good cry. It's like, what? What does that mean?
BAREILLES: You know, what I think is really remarkable is that I think it's ritual. It's turned into these kind of organic grief rituals that --
and there is dancing and there is jumping up and down, actually, very intentionally. This show is built to sort of take you through the album and
then there's good grief and then there's good release. And so, it's like wanting to encompass the vastness of the experience. It holds grief, holds
so much.
But it is -- I'm finding people are not on their phones. They're not recording the shows or they'll record for very short amounts of time, very
intentionally. And that has been remarkable. It's not a request. It's not something we're asking people to do. They're just sitting and experiencing
something in real time with a tremendous amount of presence, which has been so surprising to me.
I got this incredible question from this hospice worker who came and he said, I had a patient ask me, what is the opposite of grief? And he's like,
I'd like to know your answer. And I thought for a minute and I sort of caught myself. I'm like, I think my impulsive answer is to say joy, but I
can feel in my mouth. That's not the right answer. It's not, because there is so much joy and grief. And I asked him, what is your answer to that
question? And he said the opposite of grief is forgetfulness.
I had to think about that for a minute. And he's like, because grief is remembering. And it just, it moved me so much. And I think that people are
really coming to this show and to this music and to this film because there is something they want to remember about themselves, about people they
loved, who they've lost, or pets, or experiences. You know, I just think it's a really rich experience.
[13:55:00]
SREENIVASAN: Director Josh Alexander and musician Sara Bareilles, thank you so much.
BAREILLES: Thanks. Me too.
ALEXANDER: Thank you so much. Thanks for this conversation.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Finding a way through. And finally, despite a horrendous year of climate catastrophes, there is precious little hope that leaders gathered
in that building behind us. Behind me will take decisive action about it. The United States is busy dismantling all sorts of provisions. For
instance, combating pollution to safeguarding wilderness and endangered species at home.
But citizens around the world want environmental protections, according to polls. Like, for instance, in Bolivia, visitors are flocking to see this
tiny creature, Tigrino. He's a tilcayo, the first living wildcat species named in over a century. Tigrino has been living in a wildlife sanctuary
for years. But scientists only just made this discovery recently. It was his small size and leopard-like spots that prompted researchers to trace
his lineage. And they hope this new finding will help protect its forest habitat.
Well, that's a bit of good news and that's it for now. Thank you for watching, and goodbye from the United Nations.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
