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Amanpour
Interview with Mohammed bin Abdulrahman Al Thani; Interview with NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte; Interview with Alon Shaya. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired September 25, 2026 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00]
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello everyone, and welcome to "Amanpour." Here's what's coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MOHAMMED BIN ABDULRAHMAN AL THANI, QATARI PRIME MINISTER: If the security doesn't include everybody in the region, it means that the security is
incomplete.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: As the war with Iran grinds on, will diplomacy ever work? I sit down with Qatar's prime minister, Sheikh Mohammed bin Abdulrahman Al Thani,
on mediating between Washington and Tehran.
Then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: We've invited President Putin to the G20.
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: Russia's finances and Russia's production are what must be stopped if Putin is to be stopped.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: -- after a week of clashing visions at the U.N. General Assembly, where do the United States and Europe go from here? NATO
Secretary General Mark Rutte joins me.
Also, ahead, "Memories of A Good Meal." The award-winning chef, Alon Shaya, speaks to Walter Isaacson about how food can keep history alive.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in New York at the United Nations.
President Trump came here this week with a stark message for the world about American power. In what amounted to a declaration and a rejection of
the very concept on which the U.N. was founded, he threatened to, quote, "annihilate Iran," and defended a worldview where, as he put it, "To the
victor belong the spoils."
The next day, Iran's president, Masoud Pezeshkian, addressed the U.N. He showed pictures of the schoolchildren killed by American airstrikes on
Minab, and he vowed that Iran, quote, "Cannot be made to surrender."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MASOUD PEZESHKIAN, IRANIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): The United States president described us as terrorists. We have been the victims of
terrorism.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: But behind the scenes in New York, diplomacy is also underway. Top U.S. and Iranian officials have held their first talks since the June
ceasefire unraveled, and they were mediated by Qatar. And Doha is also at the center of efforts, of course, over Gaza, from the board of peace to
questions about past funding of Hamas. I asked Qatar's prime minister, Mohammed bin Abdulrahman Al Thani, all about all of this in an exclusive
interview.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Prime Minister, welcome back to the program.
MOHAMMED BIN ABDULRAHMAN AL THANI, QATARI PRIME MINISTER: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: You are mediating between U.S. and Iranian sides. Can you tell us the most you can tell us about where we are in terms of potentially an
agreement?
AL THANI: Well, thank you very much for having me. First of all, Christiane, look, we've been in the past few weeks trying our best since --
actually since the MOU has been -- I won't say collapsed, but fallen short, trying our best to bring back diplomacy into track.
Yesterday we had the indirect talks between the two parties, and I believe there were some positive progress in these talks. We believe that we have
sensed that from both parties that they want to see some positive progress. We have also noticed that in the exchange that we had yesterday. Of course,
we cannot say much about it right now and you know, in this kind of situations, normally it's better to stay away from the public eyes until it
gets mature. But we are really hopeful that diplomacy can prevail at the end and we can find a solution.
AMANPOUR: Can I ask you because it seems now that that Strait of Hormuz and the U.S. blockade is really putting the pressure on Iran. Who would you
say is under the most pressure right now?
AL THANI: Well, I think the entire world is under pressure, including Iran. Now, if we are just going to weigh the pressure, who's like have the
pressure more, the whole region is under the same pressure as Iran, by the way. The blockade is, yes, imposed on Iran, on the -- but also there's a
blockade that imposed on us as Gulf countries. My country especially, it's -- we cannot get ships out. It's very difficult, very challenging. You have
seen that the strait has been insecure, and this is unacceptable. The strait has been always an international waterway, and this is becoming like
a global problem.
[13:05:00]
The world needs to come together to address this issue because currently it's an issue that's been used in this war which is unacceptable. But for
us, in order to protect our people and to protect the future generation, we should put an end for this manipulation and this blackmailing of the
waterways.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, you're talking presumably about Iranian blackmailing of the waterways.
AL THANI: Well, there is, in general, anyone who is using the waterways to block countries and to block the freedom of navigation. This is considered
unacceptable. This is considered trying to strong-arm and we refuse any blockade or any blackmailing by any country or any party.
AMANPOUR: I mean the obvious question is what options do you have? How do you end this other than around a table, right? So, do you think, because
the Iranians seem to want a future in which they are at any security negotiation for the whole region, that they can't be put to that side and
work around. Do you think that that is going to happen, that they -- how do you see it happening?
THANI: Well, I think if there has been a right moment for this, it is the right moment. We need to make sure that we do not represent any concern for
the Iranians nor the Iranians represent a concern for us. We are neighbors. This is a destiny. We've been maintaining a good relationship with them for
decades now.
And I think that when we see all this chaos today happening in the region, the region is calling for a security arrangement that ensure that every
country in that region is feeling safe and every people in that region feeling safe and secure. And this is the right of the Iranian people, the
right of the Qataris, the Saudis, the Emiratis and everyone in that region.
AMANPOUR: So, we've talked about Iran and the blackmail and this and that, what about the United States? They started this war. I don't know what you
all said to your allies in the Trump administration when you knew that this was going to happen. But even at the U.N., President Trump essentially said
the spoils of the world go to those who've won it. In other words, you know, to the victor go the spoils.
He has sort of talked up American military victories in the world. And he also threatened that if there was no deal, there would be annihilation of
Iran. How do you read all that? Because it's very bellicose.
AL THANI: Look, Christiane, the war -- I mean, Qatar position has been very clear from the beginning. We didn't want this to happen. We didn't
want this to start in the first place. We were doing everything we can, and we have walked every avenue between the U.S. and Iran in order to find a
diplomatic solution between them.
Now, the war has happened, and basically, we've been calling that the only way forward will be around an agreement. There will never be a military
victory. It's never -- it's not about like the U.S. is big power. Iran has their own power and has their own capabilities. It's not about who's more
powerful than the other, because at the end of the day, the ones who are losing are the people of those countries.
And today, actually, we've seen that this war impact is not only on the region. It's on the global economy. So, that's why any kind of escalation
will have consequences that the region cannot bear, the world cannot bear, and we prefer that diplomacy is the only way forward for this.
AMANPOUR: Mr. Prime Minister, your particular state has taken a massive hit, whether it's the Al Udeid Air Base that the United States uses. We
understand through reporting that it was much worse hit than was told by your government or the United States, that it will take years to rebuild
that. We know from your own official figures that your LNG and your exports have taken a massive hit.
Now, you're a very rich country, but how worrying is that? Because your whole posture and that of the other GCCs has been based on being
prosperity, stability, continuation, and being able to work all these different forces in your region. All of that's gone up in smoke for the
last six months.
AL THANI: Well, first of all, you know, look, I mean, we've been affected significantly by this war, and this is something that Qatar didn't hide or
didn't decline. Whatever being reported, actually, by the government is the reality.
[13:10:00]
And we have been very clear from the beginning, and actually very, actually accurate with everything and every damage that's been created in the
country, whether it's in Al Udeid air base or it's in the LNG. And I'm sure that you have seen all the reporting about what damage has been created on
our LNG facilities. And transparency for us was a key. It's important for us, for our people, it's important for our partners and our friends to
understand what kind of damage has this war created for us.
Now, the whole model of the Gulf countries is built on prosperity and forward-looking opening partnerships, connectivity hub, and this will
remain our model. Yes, we have security challenges in the region, but we are strongly believing in diplomacy. We believe that diplomacy will prevail
if we want to have, you know, to continue to have a prosperous region and prosperous Iran, hopefully, in the future.
AMANPOUR: The whole sort of defensive structure that you were counting on from the United States seems to have gone up in smoke, that you still got
attacked, even though you host all those bases, even though you give so much money to the United States. You guys gave a plane to the United
States, to the president. And what did you get in return? Saudi Arabia, one of the big investors in the United States, can't even get President Trump
to help when the Houthis are making threats to Saudi Arabia. What's in it for you anymore?
AL THANI: Look, our defense arrangement that we have in our country is based on our own building, our own capacity, and our own capability. And
that has been always the doctrine for the state of Qatar to make sure that we have a military that is able and capable to defend the country. And our
armed forces has demonstrated their capabilities throughout that war.
It doesn't mean that our partnership with the U.S. is not valuable for us. It is one of the most or even it is the most valuable defense partnership
that we have. What is happening right now is an outstanding circumstances that all of us, we are looking at it, we are thinking about how can we
improve and can have a stronger partnership in the future that can making sure that this bond is solidified.
AMANPOUR: Let me move on to the other massive issue, and that's the Israel-Palestine issue. So, there's been talks and conferences here about
what to do, and the Board of Peace met about Gaza. Is there any progress of a notable fashion on whether it's humanitarian aid, whether it's setting up
a state? I know that takes a while, but, you know, International Stabilization Force or the Palestinian sort of security force to take over
from Hamas. Where is that right now?
AL THANI: Well, I think that since the signing of the Sharm el-Sheikh agreement, we have seen that Israel every time is not fulfilling their
commitment and their part of the commitment of the agreement. And it's very simply it's for one person gain.
AMANPOUR: Who's gain?
AL THANI: And for the gain of the prime minister and his far-right government. That's the whole thing. Like when every aspect of that MOU is
asked, you know, Israel is asked to implement, they just deny it and they just move on in the opposite direction. They occupy now more than 70
percent of the strip instead of withdrawing. They are continuing the killing while this agreement called the ceasefire and the targeting of the
population over there. The humanitarian aid was supposed to go at least with minimum average of 600 trucks every day and the average number of
trucks that goes every day over there is 150. And we have a long list of violations that unfortunately Netanyahu's government are committing.
And basically, we have seen that he is the biggest obstacle right now in progressing this peace plan while everyone among the mediators trying to
work very hard to make sure that this agreement uphold.
AMANPOUR: So, they would say that actually the big issue is the fact that Hamas is still armed and hasn't started disarming. And on that, our
colleague, Ronen Bergman, published last week that Netanyahu was repeatedly warned starting in 2019 that Qatari money was flowing to Hamas' military
wing, not just humanitarian channels. This reportedly came from Shin Bet, military intelligence, Egyptian officials, finds that the money funded
roughly half of Hamas' entire military wing budget.
AL THANI: This is Netanyahu's claim or whose claim is this or --
[13:15:00]
AMANPOUR: No, no. This is the independent --
AL THANI: OK.
AMANPOUR: -- investigative work of very good Israeli journalists.
AL THANI: Then let me down for you the fact and the reality, and we've been very clear on this. There has no single penny that has flown into Gaza
without the full coordination and consent by the United Nations and the Israeli government. And they are the ones and it was across governments,
not only Netanyahu. It was Netanyahu and other governments as well.
So, there is -- like there is no single penny that's been leaked by Qatar or Qatar has funded intentionally or unintentionally the military wing of
Hamas. Our money was very simply broken out into three categories. Number one is buying the gas from the Israelis to supply to the power plants in
Gaza. The other part is funding a list of families under the poverty line with $100 per family. And this list is approved by the Israelis every time.
And they go and collect the money from the bank according to a mechanism that's been agreed upon between us, the Israelis and the United Nations.
And the third part of this aid was going as salaries for the government employees, civil employees in the government in Gaza. And approved list of
those employees by the Israeli security -- I'm sorry, Shin Bet or Mossad or whatever security agencies is responsible for this. Those are the ones who
are approving that. Beside this, there is nothing going outside this category from our funding that's been requested many times by the Israeli
government and across governments and not initiated by us.
So, today, you know, with all the respect for those journalists who are putting out reports, I don't know these reports written by whom about
Qatari money, you know, funding Hamas military wing. This is a baseless accusations that Qatar never accepts and will never accept doing something
like this. We've been calling systematically many times for the Israelis counterpart who were coming to ask for these helps that these hubs are
temporary by Qatar. And let us agree on a long-term solution for the situation in Gaza.
And every time we've been pushing for that, the response was from the Israeli party that we have an election cycle. Let's wait after this. And
that has been the conversation that we had since this financing has started all the way until September 2023. Just a month before October 7, when the
Israeli officials were in Doha pushing for another round of funding.
AMANPOUR: So, you've just mentioned the Israelis and these upcoming elections. They've turned you and your reputation into a sort of like a
kind of a proxy fight. Figures like Naftali Bennett pushing to designate Qatar as an enemy state. You, of course, were mediators between Hamas and
Israel during the war when Netanyahu was accused of sabotaging deals.
You've denied any involvement in so-called Qatar gate, which was a political scandal centered on allegations that top Netanyahu aides accepted
financial backing from Qatar to promote Qatar's image and strategic interests within Israel. Have you seen any evidence firsthand that
Netanyahu's deliberately undermined or slow walk cease fires for political survival?
AL THANI: Well, first of all, we -- you know, this accusation and what they are, you know, calling Qatar gate and, you know, Qatar is bribing or
infiltrating the Israeli government. This is absurd. I mean, this would be the worst investment Qatar have ever done. If this is the case, we've been
struck by Netanyahu's government. Netanyahu has sabotaged many attempts for us in the ceasefire before and in the releasing of the hostages. And we
have seen that he's been undermining our efforts every step we were moving forward with the other person, Naftali Bennett, who is accusing now Qatar
and talking about it.
One of the governments that he was a prime minister and was a government that was requesting and praising actually what Qatar was doing for us at
that time. So, now trying to pick a fight, you know, among themselves for election reason and just for their political and personal gain. And, you
know, using Qatar as the scapegoat for this. This is totally unacceptable.
[13:20:00]
Qatar has been unfortunately maybe at the center of the campaign of anyone who wants to see chaos in the region, who wants to see an escalation in the
region for one simple reason, because they have seen that Qatar has been the only country that in every conflict and every chaos, he's trying to
create is the country who is trying to pursue to put down this conflict and clean up this chaos.
AMANPOUR: On that note, Prime Minister, thank you very much for joining us.
AL THANI: Thank you. Thank you very much for having me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: We'll be right back after this short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: President Trump used this U.N. Summit week to extend an invitation to Vladimir Putin, saying the Russian president would be welcome
at this year's G20 Summit in Miami. This comes as European leaders raise red flags about the international order coming under intense pressure,
mostly from Russia. France's Emmanuel Macron in his last speech to the Assembly warned against a return to, quote, "the law of the jungle." And
Canada's Mark Carney called this a once-in-a-century moment, urging again for middle powers to band together.
And on Ukraine, President Zelenskyy said he still hopes Trump can help bring the war to an end and quickly.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: Ukrainians did not choose this war. We choose not to die, not to lose our country, our families, not to
lose our independence, our freedom.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: But ending that war remains an ambitious goal. And with the European security order under growing strain, I spoke to NATO Secretary
General Mark Rutte.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SOARES: Secretary General Mark Rutte, welcome back to the program.
MARK RUTTE, NATO SECRETARY GENERAL: Good to be back.
AMANPOUR: There's a lot of talk right now about what is Russia's relative strength in all of this. So, a new report from Danish intelligence say it
could launch a limited military attack against a NATO country in the coming months. As you know, the Polish prime minister said it could send drones or
missiles within months. One of your NATO deputy commanders says that he's becoming Putin increasingly cavalier, dangerous and risk accepting.
What do you say to that? How much concern is there about him really testing the boundaries?
RUTTE: We have plenty prepared for this. NATO is a defensive alliance. And my message to anyone in NATO territory is, first of all, stay calm. Because
we know Putin is not on the right track now when it comes to Ukraine. Russia is losing over 43,000 men a month, seriously wounded or dead in
Ukraine. So, he's not in a good place. And what he tries to do, of course, is to play us apart. And we should not step into the trap.
My second message is, carry on. Because Europeans are spending so much more defense. We have to rapidly do more of that. Make sure we are not only
stronger today, but also stronger tomorrow. And finally, we have to make sure that we keep Ukraine full in focus and the support for Ukraine going.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, let me ask you about another perspective. That the Estonian foreign minister who is here, obviously the Baltics, front line
states, may be the first most vulnerable.
[13:25:00]
He says that they have good intelligence. They can see deep into Russia. And he doesn't see any build up on their border. And he says that we don't
believe that there's going to be any imminent physical attack. And he said, even if there is, we're going to fight. And Putin, with all his scare
tactics, can't intimidate our people.
So, I wonder if sometimes it's a bit confusing. Because we as observers here, you know, worrying and alarm bells from those who I read out. And
then the different kind of commentary from other countries.
RUTTE: Yes, but also when you look at the Danish report, basically it's not saying that they predict Russian invasion tomorrow or the day after.
And I would agree with the Estonian foreign minister. At the same time, we cannot be naive. Because Putin is rapidly building up its armed forces.
He's investing heavily in defense. The whole industrial base is turning out for the war effort. And basically, supporting the war effort.
But we are better. We are stronger. We are ahead. And what we have to do. And that's why I'm saying, hey, stay calm and carry on and support Ukraine.
We have to make sure that we stay ahead of the Russians. And that's what we are doing as a defensive alliance. Absolutely clear on our aims. And that
is to protect the one billion people living in NATO territory.
AMANPOUR: Just a quickie, because it was admitted by NATO, I think, by certainly by Germany, just this morning to us by the E.U. president, von
der Leyen. You all remember the Leipzig drone attack. And I was told by von der Leyen that actually involved Russian operatives on the territory of
Germany to do that. And you and previous SGs have said, not one inch. That if there's Russian aggression on an inch of our territory, we'll fight
back.
Does that not fall into the one-inch category to have Russians on, in this case, German territory and attacking that vulnerable site -- well, that
site in --
RUTTE: This is not an incursion in NATO territory, but it is still very serious. It is a hybrid attack, at least a hybrid attack. They tried to
organize, they failed. The Germans have been very clear in saying it was the Russians. But when it comes to hybrids and when it comes to cyber, we
have everything in place we need. We know what to do. The problem is we cannot always be public about it. It will not always be tit for tat.
Because sometimes our reactions will be symmetric. That means that you will clearly see this happens, and this is how NATO reacts and countries react.
Sometimes it is what we call asymmetric. That means that at a time of our own choosing, our own manner, we will react to what is happening. The
Russians, you know, know this. They know that we are stronger also in this domain. But also, here, it is again, calm and carry on. Because we have
trained and prepared for this. We have got it.
AMANPOUR: But, you know, they actually did something against European and other Allied leaders. They sent a drone onto a train station right when
actual leaders were leaving Ukraine, supporters of Ukraine. So, yes, hybrid, but also real.
RUTTE: And that is why I am saying we cannot be naive about the Russians. So, they are willing to, in a situation where Putin is increasingly under
pressure, where he is losing over 40,000 of his own men each month in Ukraine now, that are seriously wounded, he is trying to play his part to,
they should not step into the trap. What he would love us to do is to talk the whole day about Russia, talk the whole day about these hybrid threats,
then start to forget about Ukraine, stop supporting Ukraine.
And what we need to do is more support for Ukraine. And what I am very happy with, when you look at the Poles, for example, the Polish Foreign
Minister, Radek Sikorski, being very clear that the reaction of Poland to more hybrid attacks will be more support for Ukraine and not less support
for Ukraine. This is what I am hearing all over NATO territory. By the way, more support for Ukraine in return for hybrid threats is the best reaction
we can give to the Russians.
AMANPOUR: OK. Right here at the podium just yesterday, President Zelenskyy basically appealed for more of the weapons that you are talking about,
defensive weapons essentially, anti-ballistic missiles. And we know that they are running out. Everybody is saying that they are running out because
of the war in Iran and because of how much you have spent in Ukraine, et cetera.
And we also kind of know that Russia is actually really ramping up its defense, military posture and making weapons and ballistic missiles and
increasing the power of drones at a very fast pace. It is really adapting. It is almost doing better now in that regard than Ukraine, which had the
advantage with the drones and the, you know, different kind of weapons.
RUTTE: The Ukrainians are fast catching up, for example, when it comes to jet-powered drones. And what we are seeing when it comes to Ukraine on the
front line, we thought only a year ago that when it comes to this vital part of Donetsk, these fortified cities, that the Russians might be able in
the not-too-distant future to really move against them.
At the moment, our assessment is this will take much and much longer so the Ukrainians are really successful on the front line. Ukrainians are also
successful in striking deep inside Russia.
[13:30:00]
It is true that the Russians are constantly pummeling and attacking key industrial infrastructure and innocent civilians and cities.
AMANPOUR: Residential, yes.
RUTTE: Residential areas.
AMANPOUR: Energy.
RUTTE: And that is why it is so important that we keep the flow of interceptors which are able to take out those missiles as much as possible.
AMANPOUR: Do you have them? Do you have them? I mean, can you assure the Ukrainian people, let's say, that they can look forward to another day when
they can have most of these missiles intercepted? The opposite is true now. Most of them are getting through.
RUTTE: The good and bad news? The good news is that the production of these interceptors is also, thanks to President Trump in the United States,
is ramped up day in, day out. It always takes time before you have them off the production line. And in the meantime, and this is not the bad news, but
this is the more nuanced news, we will do as much as we can to supply Ukraine with what they need, not only when it comes to Patriot systems, but
also other air defense systems which are built in Europe.
So, I would love for it to be, in terms of size, more than it is at the moment. We are a bit limited, but a lot is coming now off the production
lines in the near future.
AMANPOUR: I think that President Zelenskyy, what he said, that he thinks this winter will be critical and essentially make or break. And you said,
you know, correctly you say, that Putin is losing tens of thousands of men per month. But does he know it? You know, it seems that the CIA leader went
to Russia to tell him the truth about what's going on on the -- you know, on the battlefield and to say, don't test NATO because we are actually
committed to Article 5. But is anybody in his circle telling him the truth about the losses?
RUTTE: Well, when you lose now 1.2 million in the four and a half years of this fight, of your own people, probably somebody will have told him in his
own system. I hope he has organized it like that.
AMANPOUR: So, he doesn't care?
RUTTE: But also, you will get societal reactions coming from this. The point is this, that where Russia is weaker than NATO, they have a leader
which is willing to sacrifice one of his own, 1.2 million of his own people in this completely crazy, unprovoked war of aggression against Ukraine. And
this is why my message to the Europeans is, keep on supporting Ukraine, but also make sure that we continue to become stronger and stronger so that we
are not only ahead of the Russians now, but also indeed in the next three or five years.
AMANPOUR: Do you think, in that case, that the best form of defense against Russia is not necessarily all the sanctions and the isolation, but
really beefing up the military power of the Ukrainians?
RUTTE: We have to do everything at the same time. So, the sanctions are important. It's the European Union working on that together with its
partners. It's, of course, crucial to develop the defense industrial base in the West. This is happening now here in the United States, quadrupling
the output of the big industrial companies, but also in Europe. It's also investing more in defense generally.
That's the money, making sure that this big irritant in the U.S. that the Europeans and the Canadians were not spending the same as the U.S. We are
now solving this thanks to President Trump and thanks to the Europeans and Canadians ramping up the defense spending. We have to -- it is -- and we
don't have the luxury to say there is one route or another. And in the meantime, what we are seeing is that the Ukrainians are successful in deep
strike, are successful on the front line.
But exactly this issue of the pummeling of their cities, of their critical infrastructure, whatever we can do, and it will not be perfect in the near
future, but whatever we can do, we have to do.
AMANPOUR: And will you be at the G20? Because, as you know, the United States, Trump has invited Putin to the G20 in Miami. They want to bring
Putin in and read him the riot act, or not, or maybe bring him in and show him, as we've heard, that the value of doing business with the United
States is greater than the value of being isolated and waging war. It didn't work out so well when President Trump and Putin met in Alaska. It
appeared that Putin got away with his views.
What do you hope for another meeting between Putin, Trump, the European leaders, the other allies who go to this G20?
RUTTE: Well, I would not agree with you about Alaska. I think what the American president did from day one coming into office is working on
Ukraine, bringing it to an end. An end where the Russians will not try to attack Ukraine again, where Ukraine can move forward as a sovereign,
independent nation.
The thing is this, that Putin, in the end, will most likely be more impressed by the American president at the moment than by the Europeans.
The Europeans have to be involved. They are involved. But the American president is key here. So, the Anchorage meeting in Alaska, I applauded.
The fact that --
AMANPOUR: But even though it doesn't pressure Putin, President Trump's activities towards Putin are based on a sort of a businessman, you know,
sort of traditional transaction.
RUTTE: I don't think that's fair --
[13:35:00]
AMANPOUR: So, how does he do it then? Because we see in public that that is what's going on, as I suppose, as a negotiating tactic, you could say
it's good or not, depending on the results. What should the U.S. president as the most powerful person say to end this war?
RUTTE: I'm not sure that it is a fair assessment of what happened in Anchorage. I think the president really tried to bring this to the next
stage and it is only the American side which is able to really bring this war when it comes to the peace negotiations and for the two of them to sit
down for peace negotiations, it's only an American side which can be decisive here.
AMANPOUR: OK. True. But it's not --
RUTTE: Of course, with full European backup. So, any conversation between Putin and Trump, I welcome. I must say what Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner
and Marco Rubio are doing in the domain of diplomacy is absolutely crucial. Again, wherever possible backed up by the Europeans, that's happening.
Because in the end you can only solve a conflict like this in the end by a peace deal and it has to be a peace deal where Ukraine can move forward in
full sovereignty, majesty and being a country which is able to defend itself and for the Russians to understand that they can never try this
again.
AMANPOUR: When you look around, and obviously, the war on Iran is complicated matters a lot including using up all the weapons that are
needed in Ukraine, what is the biggest challenge over the next let's say three months?
RUTTE: Well, again, for the Europeans, for me it means --
AMANPOUR: Yes. For NATO.
RUTTE: -- keep on working what you're doing, that is spending so much more, ramping up your defense industry, making sure we are not only strong
today but also strong tomorrow, understanding that Putin is not in a good place, that he tries to divide us, that he will never be successful at
doing that. But also signaling, clearing to the Russians, hey this is a defensive alliance but if you try something against us, we stand ready to
defend ourselves.
And when it comes to the Strait of Hormuz, of course I know the American president and the whole system here in the United States is trying to open
the Strait again, to bring this war to an end. But I'm still absolutely believing that it is important that the nuclear capability of Iran is
severely degraded, that the ballistic missile capability of Iran is severely degraded because this was a threat, not only to Israel and the
Middle East but also to Europe.
AMANPOUR: What about a former NATO commander, before you became secretary general, who is now the president of Czech Republic, Petr Pavel.
RUTTE: Yes.
AMANPOUR: He told me a few months ago that he thought Putin -- because the whole defense industrial system there is geared to this war, that he almost
doesn't have a way out, that he has to keep kind of doubling down and doubling down and that he might actually try to provoke NATO in a way, some
kind of incursion, to then show to the world that actually NATO is not going to stand up and it's not going to be united and push him back.
RUTTE: Well, I can assure you that when it comes to the United States, the White House, the Pentagon and the State Department, all the allies in
Europe and Canada, that if something like that happens, we are ready, we will defend ourselves and more importantly Putin knows this and this is why
he will not try it, I believe, not even a small thing.
In the hybrid domain we might see more and there, again, we have all the response options we need, but to be sure that we can do this not only today
but also prevent this from happening in the future, we have to continue in what we are doing at the moment and that is ramping up the spending and the
production and support in Ukraine. That's exactly what we are doing.
We will not let ourselves played apart, divided, we will not step into that trap and that is what I'm getting also here in New York from all my
colleagues in NATO. Mark, we have to stay the course, this is exactly the right approach.
AMANPOUR: All right. Secretary General, thank you very much.
RUTTE: Thank you very much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: We'll be right back after this short break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[13:40:00]
AMANPOUR: Food can be a powerful vessel for memory, preserving stories that might otherwise be lost. Chef Alan Shaya's new cookbook, "Memories of
a Good Meal," tells the stories of Jewish Holocaust survivors, Navajo code talkers and Japanese Americans held in internment camps during World War
II. Shaya pairs their experiences with recipes that evoke memories of family and identity. The James Beard award winning chef joins Walter
Isaacson now to discuss how recipes can preserve history and stories of survival.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WALTER ISAACSON, CO-HOST, AMANPOUR AND CO.: Thank you, Christiane. And Alan Shaya, welcome to the show.
ALON SHAYA, AUTHOR, "MEMORIES OF A GOOD MEAL": Thank you so much for having me.
ISAACSON: You have this wonderful, beautifully designed and printed new cookbook called Memories of a Good Meal, and it comes out of the Rescued
Recipes Initiative. So, let's start by explaining what the Rescued Recipes Initiative is.
SHAYA: Yes, I started the Rescued Recipes Initiative in partnership with the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum and my late dear friend Steven
Fenves. And it really started with me coming across Steven Fenves' family's cookbook that was rescued from his home while he was being sent to
Auschwitz.
I saw the recipes. I wanted to cook some of the recipes for him, and they were all in Hungarian. He began translating them into English for me, and I
started cooking him his mother's recipes for the first time in 80 years. We became fast friends, and fast forward, we've raised close to a million
dollars by taking his recipes and taking them around the country to cook.
ISAACSON: You know, there was a cut triangle of red cloth at the beginning of the book that really just brought it all home to me. It was actually
part of a Nazi flag. Explain where that was and who had it.
SHAYA: I came across that at the Yad Vashem Holocaust Museum in Jerusalem. It was part of their kind of culinary artifacts from the Holocaust, and it
was a torn cloth signed by women in the Ravensbruck concentration camp. As they were starving to death, they came together in these dark barracks and
kind of fantasized about meals and shared stories of their family's favorite meals, their children's favorite soup, the significance of the
tablecloth and Shabbat candles on the table.
And it hit me so hard that in the darkest of times, that food can really bring people together in a way that nothing else can. And I wanted to
really learn more about those times, and that's eventually what led to the Rescued Recipes Initiative and then to writing this book.
ISAACSON: I know you were told about these recipes, most of them. You had to listen to people describing them and you had to recreate them yourself.
Sometimes you found a recipe. How did you go about recreating these recipes? And were some of them very hard?
SHAYA: Yes, some of them were more literal. Others were really just part of the storytelling. We, you know, there's the chapter of the partisans who
were living in the Polish forest through the winter, and pretty much all they ate were potatoes. And so, that chapter is all recipes with potatoes
in different ways. And we wanted to kind of have the recipes be an extension of these survivors' stories, so that as people are cooking them
and gathering around the kitchen or the table, that the recipe really brings up parts of their stories.
So, one of the recipes from this Polish partisan chapter is a smashed potato with a vodka sauce. And, you know, potatoes and vodka were a big
part of their lives as they were derailing the German war machine and, you know, bombing trains and armaments throughout small villages in Poland.
And so, the recipe isn't one that they actually made, but the act of smashing the potato, the vodka cream sauce that goes along with it, it
really helps to bring what they were going through together and becomes an extension of that storytelling.
[13:45:00]
ISAACSON: What was it like to watch someone taste a dish you had reconstructed from their memories? And were there moments when you knew you
got it right or you knew you got it wrong?
SHAYA: Yes. Steven Fenves, who we write about in one of the chapters and was the catalyst for the Rescued Recipes Initiative, you know, he grew up
in this pretty wealthy household. They had a family cook. Her name was Marish. She was the one that rescued the cookbook.
And as a child, Steven would walk into the kitchen and he would, you know, reach up on the counter and try to grab little bites of food when their
parents were entertaining for their friends. And he had these memories of Marish kind of slapping his wrist and saying, no, these are for the adults.
Get out of the kitchen. I'm busy.
And one of the recipes are these little potato doughnuts, savory potato doughnuts with lamb. And when he came to our first Rescued Recipes event in
D.C., I was waiting at the front door for him with this tray of potato circles stuffed with lamb and sour cream. And I said, Steven, I'm not going
to slap your wrist. You can have as many of these as you want. And it was one of those moments where his eyes really lit up and I saw the power of
how this dish that he remembers from such a young age that was one of his mother's recipes kind of coming back to him full circle.
And it was just one of the most impactful moments throughout this entire experience for me, especially as a chef who works to bring food and make
that connection and make somebody feel something from what they're eating. That was a very special moment.
ISAACSON: Well, you smuggle in a dollop of history and a dash of morality amid the recipes, which makes it feel like a worthy endeavor. And you do it
sometimes not just with Holocaust survivors, but as the book goes on, you're taking Japanese who are in internment camps during World War II.
SHAYA: Yes.
ISAACSON: The Navajo code calls. When did you decide you were going to add to the group of people who had to have their recipes recovered?
SHAYA: Yes. Well, I wanted this book not just to be about the Holocaust. I wanted it to be about World War II and to show the breadth of what this war
was. And so, we got a chance to cook alongside a Navajo code talker on the Navajo reservation. We went to Manzanar in California and met with
survivors of the internment camps there where Japanese Americans were taken and held prisoner.
And I worked with June Hersh, who was an incredible co-author with me on this book. And she really had a lot of experience with interviewing
survivors and researching stories. So, we went along and found really, I think, what made World War II such a wide conflict, such a wide war and
affected everybody in the world. And we wanted all of those stories to share. We could only fit 10 stories into this book, but each one of them, I
think, brings another angle into how wide and far spread this war really was.
ISAACSON: And when you spread it out, go into others, what did you find the recipes say? What surprised you about the recipes, say, for the Navajo
code breakers?
SHAYA: Well, you know, the blue corn mush that we made for John Kinsel, who was one of the Navajo code talkers, is a very classic Navajo dish where
they would take blue corn and millet and kind of make like a polenta or a porridge out of it. And they would burn juniper branches and add the ashes
to the porridge to add minerals and vitamins to it.
And so, John Kinsel, who served in Guadalcanal, had this moment where there were these large coconut crabs. And these crabs would kind of climb the
coconut trees and crack coconuts with their claws. That's how powerful they were. But they would also lacerate the soldiers as they were sleeping in
the foxholes. So, one of the recipes in his chapter is this very classic blue corn mush, but it's topped with crab meat that is then braised in
coconut milk.
And so, that recipe really, in one dish, tells the story of how John used his skills of being able to work the land and understand how to cook wild
animals and help save his company through doing that.
[13:50:00]
ISAACSON: Why is this book particularly relevant now? Why did you decide to do it? Does it have something to do with the immigration issues we're
facing?
SHAYA: Well, yes. And also, you know, now is really our last chance to get first-person narratives from survivors. People that we interviewed for this
book were well into their '90s. And John Kinsel was 106 years old when we got a chance to spend the day with him. And he passed 23 days later. And
so, we really don't have a lot of time left to hear these stories directly from survivors.
I think that it's so important that everybody goes out and tries to meet survivors and understand their lessons. There are so many parallels to what
we're going through in the world now, whether it's immigration or just divisiveness. And these lessons, I hope, can teach us and our younger
generations what values are important and how we should show up to the polls, how we should show up to teach our friends and teach our communities
so that we don't enter these horrible times again.
ISAACSON: You came to New Orleans as an Israeli immigrant. You opened a wonderful restaurant, Saba, on Magazine Street, which I think is just a few
blocks from where you're sitting now. How does your experience being accepted into the community of New Orleans and being an immigrant in New
Orleans and being an Israeli, how did that help inform this?
SHAYA: Well, I think that we are all going through these really hard times where people are trying to pull us apart. They're trying to create
conflict. And what I do through cooking food and at our restaurants is to really show that there's humanity behind all of this. And if you get sucked
into the politics of it all or what decisions governments are making, whether it's in America or in Israel, you can really be torn apart.
And you will not understand that within these communities, whether it's in America or in Israel, there are beautiful people that are living their
lives and eating together and sharing meals together. And through cooking, I really try to bring that to the forefront and break bread with everybody.
It creates an atmosphere of conversation where you can agree, you can disagree, but at least you're sitting down together. And I think that
that's such an important piece of all of this.
ISAACSON: If you were to continue this project, do more about recovered recipes, would you try to do the Palestinians at some point?
SHAYA: Absolutely. I mean, I think that the Palestinians are a beautiful people and they've been ravaged by their government decisions. And I think
that what this book is really all about is to kind of strip away the politics, strip away the divisiveness and to show that at our core, we all
want to be together. We all want everyone to be safe. We want people to be well fed and healthy. And that, I think, is what the power -- I think that
is the power of food. It can do that.
ISAACSON: One of the things you do in your restaurant, one of the things we do in New Orleans is have a diversity of cultures. Diversity is under
attack today. But to me, it's a way of having creativity, having the food you have at Saba, as well as the food that young Duke Chase has at Dukie
Chases. It's all a mix of different cultures. Tell me about how seeing food helps you appreciate the diversity, particularly in a place like New
Orleans.
SHAYA: Sure. Food is a window into people's lives, into people's history, whether it's dark history in New Orleans through the slave trade and how
African and Haitian and Caribbean cuisine came into New Orleans to create dishes like gumbo and jambalaya. What food does is it creates this medium
where we can gather around it and we can talk about those things.
But we can also learn about people and we can learn about their family traditions, what makes their dining room table delicious and vibrant. And
that's everything that I think this book represents. It's about how do you see past this darkness into something that is more humane?
[13:55:00]
And how do you learn these lessons and how do you learn this history and then be able to teach it to other people through the act of eating and
sharing meals? When you eat and share a meal, you retain so much memory, more so than just watching a movie or reading an article. Food enters your
body. It becomes a part of who you are. The smells, the textures, the sounds of eating, all of that helps to really build memory in a way that
can then be shared. And that to me is just one of the most important things that we can do.
ISAACSON: Alon Shaya, thank you for joining us. Appreciate it.
SHAYA: Thank you. Thank you so much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: That's it for now. Thank you for watching, and goodbye from the our week at the United Nations in New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:00:00]
END
