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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt
Trump Meets With Cabinet And Musk On Making Cuts "More Precise"; Markets Plunge Despite Trump Pausing Tariffs On Canada & Mexico; Newsom Criticizes Harris Over Response To Trans Attacks Ad; New Book Recounts Trump's Response To Assassination Attempt; Trump: Russia Has To Make Peace Deal For Reasons "Only I Know". Aired 4-5p ET
Aired March 06, 2025 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[16:00:35]
KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: It's Trump versus Musk.
Let's head into THE ARENA.
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The president meets with his cabinet and Elon Musk to discuss ways to be more precise, with the firing of federal workers. Is Trump putting limits on his billionaire budget cutter?
Plus, Trump is reversing course on his trade war. Yes. Again, pausing tariffs on Canada and Mexico just moments ago, and injecting new confusion and chaos into the U.S. economy as it's showing signs of vulnerability.
And, et tu, Newsom? As Democrats bicker over the best way to counter Trump and his agenda, the California governor is breaking from his party and borrowing a page from MAGA's playbook in the culture wars.
(MUSIC)
HUNT: Hi, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. Welcome to THE ARENA. It's wonderful to have you with us on this Thursday.
We begin with the whiplash. For the first time, President Trump may be reining in Elon Musk. Just hours ago, the president convening his cabinet secretaries and Musk at the White House to send this message. The cabinet secretaries have power over who gets fired inside their agencies. Trump, writing on his Truth Social platform that the secretaries, quote, can be very precise as to who will remain and who will go.
Trump also writing that government cuts should be made with a scalpel, not with a hatchet. Which one of those implements might this chainsaw more resemble?
This, as we are getting the first evidence that mass firings of federal workers by DOGE are helping to fuel what look like recession level layoffs. A new report finds U.S. based employers announced plans to slash more than 172,000 jobs last month, the highest February total since 2009.
You remember that? Yeah. That time period is now known as the great recession.
And the layoffs keep coming. We are told that President Trump is preparing to sign an order to dismantle the Education Department. It would wipe out some federal jobs. Yes, but it also could affect teachers across the country.
Also headed for the chopping block, more than 70,000 jobs at the Department of Veterans Affairs. Many of those jobs held by men and women who served our country in uniform.
And of course, there's already been whiplash across the government, as some of Musk's cuts have had to be quickly reversed. Remember this?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELON MUSK, TECH BILLIONAIRE: We will make mistakes. We won't be perfect. But when we make mistake, we'll fix it very quickly. So, for example, with USAID, one of the things we accidentally canceled very briefly was Ebola -- Ebola prevention. I think we all want Ebola prevention. So we restored the Ebola prevention immediately, and there was no interruption.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Very briefly. Whoops.
Also today, CNN is reporting that the CDC has had to ask 180 employees to come back to work. But some of those people have declined to return. And who really can blame them because of the, quote, unstable environment at the agency?
The whiplash doctrine, also on display today with tariffs. President Trump making yet another about-face, delaying tariffs on many products from Mexico and Canada until April 2nd.
But that is not easing the whiplash that we're seeing on Wall Street. The markets today, in a downward spiral again. The Dow closing down more than 400 points. The close of course, just moments ago that completely wiped out yesterdays rebound, basically.
Is all of it giving our entire economy, which had been relatively stable when Trump was sworn in whiplash too?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK ZANDI, CHIEF ECONOMIST, MOODY'S ANALYTICS: It feels like the economy is gagging on the uncertainty. And, you know, the longer the uncertainty hangs around, the more likely the economy is going to start choking.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: All right. Let's get straight to the White House. We find CNN's Jeff Zeleny standing by there for us.
Jeff, I know we just heard extensively from the president during this pool spray. Bring us up to speed on what we learned, especially the signs we're getting around Elon Musk.
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, it was for about an hour that the president was holding forth in the Oval Office this afternoon, Kasie. It's the first time we've seen him, at least on camera, since that big speech on Tuesday night.
[16:05:05]
And he was signing some executive actions, which were essentially reversing the work that he did earlier in the week, all about the tariff policy. And this has been very unsettling to the markets, as we have seen. It's been confusing here in Washington with exemptions sort of piling up. The automakers yesterday, of course, the president holding phone calls with the president of Mexico, the prime minister of Canada, suddenly reversing these.
But the president insisted the markets -- he's not watching. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm not even looking at the market because long term, the United States will be very strong.
Companies and countries that have ripped off this country, our country, our beloved USA, and they're not going to be ripping us off anymore. So, you know, I think that has an impact on the market.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: So there are some things we know from history as well as doing considerable reporting, talking to a variety of people. The markets are one of the drivers. There is no question about it. The president has carefully tracked his success with the stock market, but also the value of the dollar. And but just the three automakers, the companies that were calling for a couple of days in a row, as well as other business leaders, really urging the White House to express some, you know, signs of -- of -- of a surety to, you know, ease the confusion here.
So that has happened, I guess, for a month or so. But again, those threats of tariffs have been causing so much confusion. But the president saying he's not looking at the markets -- I'm not sure about that.
HUNT: I don't know if I've ever known Donald Trump to not pay attention to the stock market. But hey, you know, I guess there's a first time for everything.
Jeff Zeleny, thank you so much, as always, my friend. Really appreciate it. All right. Our all star panel is here today. Former Obama senior
adviser David Axelrod; Annie Linskey is White House reporter for "The Wall Street Journal"; former Obama administration official Van Jones, and Scott Jennings, former political director for Mitch McConnell.
Welcome, gentlemen. And, Annie, thank you so much for being here.
I actually want to start out -- let's take -- let's listen to a little bit of what the president had to say in the Oval Office, just so we can react to the very latest in terms of how he is characterizing his relationship with Elon Musk and Elon's authority over, over these various federal agencies.
Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I want the cabinet members to keep good people. I don't want to see a big cut where a lot of good people are cut. I want the cabinet members to keep the good people and the people that aren't doing a good job, that are unreliable, don't show up to work, et cetera. Those people can be cut.
So I had a meeting and I said, I want the cabinet members go first. Keep all the people you want, everybody that you need, and it would be better if they were there for two years instead of two weeks, because in two years, they'll know the people better.
But I want them to do the best job they can when we have good people. Those -- that's precious. That's very important. And we want them to keep the good people.
And so we're going to be watching them. And Elon and the group are going to be watching them. And if they can cut, it's better. And if they don't cut, then Elon will do the cutting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: David Axelrod, it sounds to me like he is acknowledging or seems to recognize that the way that they're going about this is becoming problematic.
DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah. Look, I think we need to distinguish between being a populist and a popularist.
Donald Trump is a popularist. He likes to be popular. And I think what he's discovered is that people -- that people are uncomfortable with the way this is being done.
I think Democrats would make a mistake if they -- if they didn't recognize that people do believe that there's a lot of waste in government and that government can be improved and streamlined and technology can be applied and so on.
But the way this has happened has been really unnerving to people. And I think the Musk effect is beginning to pinch. HUNT: What do you think?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, if Donald Trump likes to be popular, he must be loving life right now because he's more popular than he's ever been.
I mean, his approval --
AXELROD: That's a low bar, though.
JENNINGS: His approval is good.
HUNT: It is a low bar.
JENNINGS: The DOGE effort is popular. I don't know if you guys saw Harry Enten's reporting on this, this morning, but the DOGE effort is popular. And he also reminded us today he's the president. He's running the country. Elon Musk works for him. The cabinet works for him.
HUNT: If DOGE was just so popular, then why not -- then why say, oh, well, we've got to let you guys do it. And he's talking now all of a sudden, it's a reversal in tone, right? Instead of saying there's way too many people in the government, he's saying, we've got lots of people that are actually pretty good.
JENNINGS: And that's absolutely true. And I'm sure he's got cabinet secretaries saying, well, look, you hired me to run this cabinet, and I need you to give me a little bit of authority here, and I don't much care whether they use a scalpel, a chainsaw, a sledgehammer, or a Mack truck.
I'm just a Republican like all the rest of the Republicans that's wondering, how did the government get so big in the last five years.
[16:10:01]
From 2019, pre-COVID to 2024, you know, we went from spending $4.5 trillion to $6.2 trillion. All any Republican wants to know is does the government have to be this big? That's what Elon is asking.
VAN JONES, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, there's a couple of things here. Number one, people do think that we could have a better government than we have. That's true. But there are three levels here. There's getting good savings. Everybody is for that.
Below that, though, is -- is enforcing all these loyalty oaths. There's something that's weird about what's happening to federal workers being quizzed. Do you believe that Donald Trump was -- was really elected in 2020? That has nothing to do with their job. Then, it gets scarier than that. Grabbing all this data and all this control.
And so I think what's beginning to happen is a couple of things. Number one, people are pissed. Do they love Donald Trump? Maybe, but they are pissed about what's happening in their own communities. And then number two, what's happening is Donald Trump is about to get
his butt in trouble because when he got on television and he said -- he pointed out to Elon and said Elon is running something, that opens him up to a massive amount of lawsuits because he's supposed to be an advisor, not in charge.
And so part of this is backpedaling, reasserting the fact that he is an advisor, not in charge to keep him out of court. So a lot of things are happening here.
ANNIE LINSKEY, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL: You know, I've -- I've been in the Oval Office and actually I was in the cabinet -- cabinet room when Elon Musk and Trump were both there and had some of the exchange that you had shown earlier. And I will say, I think that today felt a little bit more like a sort of a nuanced shift in the public way that the president is talking about the relationship.
It's not a rift of any kind. Its not, you know, I think all of Washington has been waiting for the Elon-Trump divorce. And that's not --
JONES: Never going to happen.
LINSKEY: Well, you know, we never say never. But that -- that's not what this is. Its a slight rebalancing. And it's a little bit of a guardrail that's being put up.
But I don't -- I don't see Elon Musk's power really receding all that much. Even today I see it more as Trump, you know, further explaining what he wants. And there is you know, there's a -- go ahead.
JONES: Right. Look, right now, if he's an advisor, he gets to do all kind of stuff. But Donald Trump said in his speech, he's in charge.
That opens Elon up to all those emails can now be FOIA requested. This -- this is backpedaling because of -- because of the courts being able to get into Elon's emails.
AXELROD: One thing -- one thing we should note is that Elon Musk got a huge ovation at the State of the Union. But when he got in the room with those members of Congress yesterday, it was apparently much less effusive because they're worried.
The fact is that waste, fraud -- if you ask Americans, should we eliminate waste, fraud and abuse from the government? You'll get a lot of response for that. If you start defining waste, fraud and abuse as things that they value and workers that are essential, they're going to have a much different view.
So the initial blush of -- of -- of Musk with his chainsaw may have had some resonance. The fact that he's cutting down stuff indiscriminately, less so.
JENNINGS: Well, it's not all indiscriminate. I mean, we don't really need the transgender mice, do we? I mean -- JONES: That's not even real.
JENNINGS: It is real. I'm sorry, Van. It's real.
JONES: No, no, it's not. Listen --
JENNINGS: Is it real or not?
JONES: Hold on a second.
JENNINGS: Did we -- did we have to? Did we have to say it was real or not?
JONES: No, no, hold on.
JENNINGS: It's real.
LINSKEY: I mean, Musk is a shield.
AXELROD: How about this?
JENNINGS: It's a real thing. So, look, my point is --
JONES: Listen, what -- they weren't talking about trans --
JENNINGS: Don't defend the mice.
JONES: No, no, listen -- you don't want to talk about it. We want to talk about it.
But -- but there were it wasn't transgender. It was a different term that was misinterpreted as transgender. They were actually doing basic medical experiments on mice to figure out --
AXELROD: Don't spoil a good troll here.
JONES: It's just not true.
AXELROD: Jennings is having a good troll. Don't spoil it.
JENNINGS: Okay, here's the point. They have found some things.
JONES: Yes.
LINSKEY: And it's --
JENNINGS: And the greatest public relations advice I could give them is this. You found stuff, you're going to find more stuff. And there's going to come a point where you could take this to the Congress and have a really good hearing and a really good public display. That is the next -- that is the next iteration.
(CROSSTALK)
HUNT: -- every year. For the record, this is not a new thing.
Go ahead.
AXELROD: Yes. No, no, no, no, obviously not. But the question is when you, for example, lop off 75,000 or 80,000 people from the Veterans Administration, a place that where service is of such importance and many of the people who are serving are people who had been in uniform, you know, how -- how does that play?
I mean, I listen, I can tell you, I've been in government. There is always a treasure trove of little things for trolls in the media to make use of.
JENNINGS: You don't have to call me a troll. I'm your friend.
AXELROD: I was pointing at Van.
(LAUGHTER)
JENNINGS: But they're so sensitive about the mice.
(LAUGHTER)
AXELROD: The reality is that however popular -- unpopular government is, some of the things that government does are essential to feel that.
JONES: Can I say something about that? Listen, the social security folks, right now, if you're retiring right now and you're turning in your forms, nobody's answering your phone calls and you're not able to get your money from retiring.
[16:15:04]
That's real stuff that's happening that was not happening three months.
LINSKEY: But that is the Musk playbook. I mean, this is what he's done in all of his companies. He goes in and he says delete, delete, delete. And he says that until he's in a position where he needs to bring back 20 percent of his deletions, that's when he knows he's gone far enough. So this is --
JONES: That he's hurting people.
AXELROD: Well, he deleted the Ebola thing. And then he and he said he put it back, but there was -- it's still not clear whether that that money has been. There was a delay in the restoration that has real consequences in people's lives. So this is not --
LINSKEY: And some of his rocket --
AXELROD: -- Twitter.
LINSKEY: Some of his rocket ships blow up. I mean, that is -- that is the fake twitter. The consequences are much, much less --
LINSKEY: On the right, right. JENNINGS: The thing though, the cuts to V.A., it sounds like -- it sounds like a lot of people, but then you look down the paragraphs in the memo, they're trying to go back to 2019 staffing levels.
Did the V.A. operate in 2019? Of course, it did. A lot of conservatives are looking at the government exploded in the last five years. V.A. is a great example. They did add all these people and I know they added the burn pits thing.
But these agencies, because of COVID, during COVID and got enormous. And we're spending six plus trillion dollars.
AXELROD: But this is not an error, but its not a purely arithmetic. First of all, V.A. wasn't really functioning all that well in 2019.
JENNINGS: How's it functioning?
AXELROD: But -- but -- but -- but this is not an arithmetic exercise. You have to evaluate what is needed and what isn't needed. And if you just say, well, we're going to lop 75,000 or the, the first or the last 75,000 that came in, you're not making the kind of qualitative judgments that are important in agencies that affect people's lives.
JENNINGS: Well, that's what Trump said today. He said, look, I'm going to let my cabinet secretaries get a little more hands on here.
HUNT: It sounds like a walk back, honestly.
JENNINGS: Well, they're just -- they all just got it. They've been in office. Some of them just got confirmed. The fact that he empowered them today and he's still got Elon sitting there. You know, they're learning how to do it.
HUNT: And do you think it was smart what he did today pausing the tariffs again? I mean, the one thing that the markets and I mean, our sort of theme at the top here was whiplash, right. That one of the things that has made America the strongest economy in the world has been our stability, right? And the certainty that businesses can rely on it.
JONES: Great (ph) system.
JENNINGS: Well, it was benevolent. I mean, what he did today, I mean, but he said no more after the next month. I mean, look, you got to he believes in the tariffs. He believes if they are enacted and if they are left in place over a long period of time, it will benefit.
JONES: He don't believe him in a much. He pauses them and unpauses them. He's like a like a kid with a, you know.
JENNINGS: You got one month.
JONES: Yeah, one --
JENNINGS: That's all you get.
JONES: You get --
(LAUGHTER)
AXELROD: We'll all get together here in a month and see where this is but --
JONES: But you literally had everybody out there saying yesterday, there will be no pause. There will be no pause. Then this morning pause. That is, there's no way to run a bodega, let alone a country.
LINSKEY: And, Scott -- go ahead.
AXELROD: No, I'm just saying predictability is essential to businesses. It's essential to nations as well. And so there's a lot of nervousness right now.
HUNT: For sure.
All right, everybody stand by. For me, right now, I do want to know what are you all hearing? To my sources and friends around town, you all know who you are. Check your inboxes.
Here's our question for today. How real are fears of a recession? It has to ties into all the things we've just been discussing at this table. You've got to the bottom of the hour.
Do send us your thoughts, tips, exclusives. If this is the wrong question, if the table has gone insanely crazy, if Scott Jennings is a troll even though his hair doesn't stick up in his green, write to us. Let us know. We'll let you in on the conversation later on this hour.
All right. Coming up next here, Gavin Newsom and Charlie Kirk agreeing with each other. New comments today from a want-to-be Democratic presidential candidate. He's getting some backlash from his own party. But we're going to dig into that.
Plus, inside one of the most unforgettable moments of the 2024 presidential campaign, what were now learning about the immediate aftermath of that failed assassination attempt against President Trump in Pennsylvania.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:23:18]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kamala supports transgender sex changes in jail with our money.
AD NARRATOR: Kamala even supports letting biological men compete against our girls in their sports. Kamala is for they/them. President Trump is for you.
(END VIDEO CLIP) HUNT: The Trump campaign put tens of millions of dollars behind that ad, and one similar to it during the last election. Now, on his new podcast, the California Governor Gavin Newsom, breaking with his Democratic party and sharply criticizing 2024 presidential nominee Kamala Harris over what he says was her disastrous non-response to it.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D), CALIFORNIA: The devastating Trump's for you, she's for they, them. Devastating. Devastating. And she didn't even react to it, which was even more devastating.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
HUNT: Wow. This from a man that we know wants to run for president in 2028.
Those comments from his brand new podcast, where his first guest was Charlie Kirk, the leader of the pro-Trump organization Turning Point USA.
Since taking office, President Trump has already signed an executive order banning transgender athletes from girls and women's sports. Newsom seemingly siding with the president on that issue now, too. He suggested Democrats were wrong in arguing that transgender athletes should be allowed to participate in women's sports.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
NEWSOM: The issue of fairness is completely legit, so I completely align with you. I don't want to walk away from this principle because it's electoral, but it is an issue of fairness.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
HUNT: David Axelrod, this is this is fascinating, honestly, that he is doing this as someone who wants to be a new leader of the party. I mean, it's very sharp criticism of Harris, for one thing. But second of all, he does seem to be staking out, you know, saying we're wrong on this.
[16:25:05]
AXELROD: Yeah. Look, I think that there probably is a large consensus in this country that that just didn't make sense. And, you know, it's a very small number of people. It's a great issue. I'm not going to use the T-word again. It's a great issue in politics.
And there's no doubt, he's right. They used it to great advantage. The question he's going to run into is, dude, you were governor of the state for six years before you said anything, and it looks a little transparent when you switch positions at this stage in the game.
Kamala Harris, by the way, is probably going to run for governor. May well be the Democratic candidate for governor. So this is kind of awkward. He's making an awkward transition to podcaster here. HUNT: Kind of awkward. Seems like a generous way to put it.
JENNINGS: I'm just surprised that Newsom and Harris don't seem to be getting along, Van.
(LAUGHTER)
JONES: As a California Democrat, you -- they -- they --
HUNT: This is a little awkward for Van Jones also. Okay? Let's just throw that out there.
JONES: Another California -- there's another California Democrat.
Look, I think this is -- this is a -- this is a tough one for me. First of all, Gavin Newsom is a close friend of mine, and -- and I -- and I appreciate what he is trying to do. We're just torn down the middle on this.
I was part of one of the first efforts to protect transgender people in the '90s. I was part of an organization called Trans Action because in those days, transgender sex workers were getting the heck beat out of them on the streets of San Francisco. They were getting thrown out of apartments. They weren't able to be employed. They were a very small group of men. They were being mistreated.
And so we stood up for those folks and said, hey, quit beating the hell out of people. Give people a chance, let them have a life. And so I still believe in that. I still believe in that.
But when it became an issue of how does this affect children? And if you make medical interventions with children, or if in children's sports somebody gets hurt, I think it was very difficult for Democrats to know how to respond, because now you're tearing us apart because we care about these kids, but we also don't want people to be picked on and mistreated because they're different.
And so I don't think -- we've had -- I don't think we've dealt with this issue well. And I think Republicans have taken advantage of it. I think that Gavin is trying to give voice to a more balanced position. I respect him for doing it.
I just worry about what might happen to people who now feel that nobody cares about them, and that they're being pushed further out of our society if they're not at home in our party.
JENNINGS: I think this whole revolution of common sense idea that Trump is pushing, this is the issue that maybe people associate with it the most, because if there ever was an 80/20 or 90/10 issue in America, it's this one. I mean, President Trump had the young athlete at the State of the Union the other night who had been really injured in a volleyball game over it. I saw people posting video of that horrific injury, and I still saw liberals on social media laughing at this person's misfortune.
And so I think the Democratic Party is torn up about it. But the American people aren't. Trump used it to political advantage, but then they expected him to do something about it, which he has done. If Democrats don't get on the right side of at least one 80/20 issue in America, they're going to lose again in '28.
LINSKEY: You know, what I see Gavin Newsom doing there is trying to figure out a way for Democrats to talk about this issue, because clearly, they struggled to do it in 2024. And clearly there are some new lines that their party is realizing that they need to draw on, on this issue. And by keeping it, you know, contained to sports and to children, it sort of containers, the -- the areas where they're willing to change their views a little bit. But I do think they seem to be drawing a bright line between children and adults.
And that is where some of the other social issues that they've had a lot of success on have -- have had a sort of demarcation point.
AXELROD: Yeah, but it is, it is. There is some sort of there is common sense. There is common sense. This is a -- this issue involves very few people. It has great political impact, but it involves very few children.
And I think if you're a parent, you want your kid to compete on a fair playing field. Just say it. You don't have to wait six years and then calculate what the political implications of that are. Just say it.
JENNINGS: It works politically because it even though it is a small number of people, it does communicate something about your personal judgment if you're willing to give in to it. That's why the ad was so effective. Because if Harris is willing to give in to this and the other issues that were surrounding it, what else would she do? That's why people react.
HUNT: And I think we should be clear. It was incredibly effective. There was an analysis that was done by Harris's super PAC, and they found that when voters watched that ad, the race would shift toward Trump by about 2.7 percent. That's intellectual politics.
AXELROD: But she had made a lot of progress in that campaign, painting herself into the middle, you know, telling her middle class story, talking about middle class values. This threw her right back into sort of San Francisco liberal territory, no offense, and to great, great advantage to -- to great advantage.
[16:30:04]
But -- go ahead.
JONES: No, look, I mean, for me, this is tough because this stuff I don't like -- I don't like having to put my pronouns on Zoom calls, you know, as I've often said, and I've heard other people say my pronouns are obvious. Like if my pronouns had changed, it'd be a news story. So there's some stuff like that.
AXELROD: Yes.
JONES: It just feels annoying and obnoxious. And at the same time, when you talk to people who are transgender and for whom their gender is not obvious, having to be the only person explaining --
AXELROD: Well, Van, you know what?
JONES: How do you see it?
AXELROD: I accept everything you're saying. There are things that unify the largest number of Americans that have to do with their livelihoods and their hopes for the future, and their ability to make a living and get ahead, and their kids' ability to get ahead. Those are issues on which Democrats can win and where they probably should be focusing their full attention.
If these other issues -- and I have great solicitude for anyone who's being victimized in the way that some of these trans folks have been victimized. But when you get to these other issues, they are almost a luxury when people are struggling with so many other things that are common to most Americans.
HUNT: Yeah. I mean, I think that's why the ad was so effective, right? Because it was raising this question.
AXELROD: Also, taxpayer money was involved in that ad paying for trans -- trans surgery for -- for inmates. That, that, that, that little bit of it made it all the more irksome to people.
HUNT: Yeah.
All right. Coming up here, a stunning statement today from President Trump's special envoy to Ukraine and Russia. But first, new details revealing today what Donald Trump was thinking and saying in the moments after that assassination attempt against him on the campaign trail. The author of the new book, "Revenge", is here in THE ARENA live, coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:36:17]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Gunfire rang out and a sick and deranged assassin unloaded eight bullets. I believe that my life was saved that day in Butler for a very good reason. I was saved by god to make America great again. I believe that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: President Trump met there by applause on Capitol Hill this week when he recounted what was really the most stunning moment of the 2024 election cycle, the attempt on then-candidate Trump's life in Butler, Pennsylvania. This was nearly eight months ago now, but it was, of course, captured in this now famous image by the "Associated Press's" Evan Vucci.
In his new book, the "Axios" reporter Alex Isenstadt reports that when Trump saw that photo, he instinctively understood just how politically consequential it would be, remarking, quote, wow, that's iconic. That's the most American picture I have ever seen.
And joining our panel now is Alex Isenstadt. He's the activist, reporter and the author of the forthcoming book "Revenge: The Inside Story of Trump's Return to Power".
Alex, congratulations on the book.
ALEX ISENSTADT, AUTHOR, "REVENGE": Thank you. Thanks for having me. Congratulations on the show.
HUNT: Thank you.
You and I used to carpool to "Politico", like, what, 15 years ago now? Was a long time ago.
Tell us a little bit more about this -- this scene that you kind of outline and Trump's mindset in this really dramatic moment.
ISENSTADT: Sure. So, one of the things I tried to do in this book is we all know what happened on stage that day, but we don't know much about, as much about what happened when he got into the hospital afterwards.
And, so one of the things he was thinking about was the imagery. And he knew instinctively that this was going to make a lot of news. He said that at the time. And he also saw --
HUNT: That does seem fairly obvious.
ISENSTADT: It seems fairly obvious. But then he also took a look. He was taking a look at these pictures, and he saw instinctively just how powerful they were, and it became very clear at that point that it was going to become a huge, a huge, hugely important image in the campaign going forward.
HUNT: Alex, what -- what did you learn or how do you understand the mindset that led him to do what he did in that moment? Because obviously him putting that fist up in the air, I mean, they cut the microphone at one point, but you can see him mouthing the word "fight".
And of course, you know, I don't think any of us knows how were going to react if something like that happens to us. But that was a really kind of noteworthy set of instincts that he had. I mean, how did he feel about that afterwards?
ISENSTADT: One of the things I talk about in this book is this instinctive connection that Trump has to his base and his supporters. He knows who his supporters are. He knows how to electrify his supporters. He knows how to get them excited.
And so they see him as a vessel for their frustrations. They see him as a fighter, and he understands that. And so when he got on stage and he was shot, he understood how to rally the faithful and he understood how to sort of reinvigorate that connection he has with them. HUNT: So the book is called "Revenge", and I just want to kind of
remind everyone why it might be called of that because this was something we heard repeatedly President Trump talk about on the trail. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: -- you that we will root out the communists, Marxists, fascists and the radical left thugs that live like vermin within the confines of our country.
I am your warrior. I am your justice. And for those who have been wronged and betrayed, I am your retribution.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: So that sort of speaks, Alex, to what you are saying about how he instinctively has this connection about fighting for these people that are wronged and betrayed.
And Van, you wanted to jump in.
JONES: I was just going to say I had the unfortunate moment of having actually been shot at when I was an activist on the streets in Oakland, and I'm going to tell you, my reaction was not that. I was terrified. And, you know, really shaken up.
And so, you know, I do think it spoke to a lot of people that he had that kind of ability to -- to bounce back so quickly. And I think there were people who didn't even believe he was actually shot at or he was somehow it was staged. And I said, listen, I know a little bit about Donald Trump. He loves himself enough that he's not going to let somebody shoot at his head when he's 15 points up over Joe Biden.
AXELROD: The thing about Donald Trump, that one of his super is his understanding of the theater of television and the fact that in that moment when he went through what he went through, that he had the presence of mind to find the right spot and get the hero shot, you know, is -- is pretty remarkable. It's like all of life is a reality show.
JENNINGS: Alex, based on your reporting and your knowledge of this issue, I heard some remarks today that Trump is going to release some information about the shooter and the situation in Pennsylvania. Do you know anything about that based on what you've done for this book?
ISENSTADT: He was throughout the campaign, after the shooting, he was frustrated and found it peculiar that there wasn't more information about the shooter released. And in fact, after the second assassination attempt, he began to develop some real feelings of paranoia about why there wasn't more information released, why this kept on happening to him.
And so it doesn't surprise me that now he's talking about wanting to release more information, because during the campaign he was wondering why more information wasn't coming out. HUNT: Alex, what else are we going to learn in this book? What other
scoops you got for us today?
ISENSTADT: Well, there's a lot of -- there's -- there's a lot of stuff that's in the book. And I would love people to read it because I think it tells so much of the story of what happened during the campaign, things that people don't know about.
But one thing that I think is particularly interesting is Trump's Secret Service director, a guy by the name of Sean Curran. He was -- now he's Secret Service director. He was Trump's Secret Service detail lead during the campaign, and the two developed a very close relationship.
Trump stood behind him after Butler. And what you saw was during the joint address the other night, Trump had him come out and embrace that. He embraced that boy, the young boy. And it was an interesting moment because everyone on the campaign knew that Sean Curran is not a guy who gives hugs, and he's not a guy who smiles. And that's both of what -- both things he did during the joint address.
But -- but Trump's relationship with Sean Curran -- Sean Curran is an important player in this book, and he's an interesting character as well.
HUNT: All right, Alex Isenstadt, thank you so much for joining. Thank you. Congratulations on the book --
ISENSTADT: Thanks for having.
HUNT: -- which is "Revenge". You can get it next week, right? Next week.
All right. Coming up next here, details on an emergency summit in Europe over Russia's war in Ukraine as the U.S. confirms a meeting with Kyiv officials.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:47:10]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Well, I think what's going to happen is Ukraine wants to make a deal because I don't think they have a choice. I also think that Russia wants to make a deal because in a certain different way, a different way that only I know, only I know, they have no choice either.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: That was President Trump moments ago, touting the possibility of a peace deal between Ukraine and Russia based on secret information on Moscow that only he knows, apparently. This comes as Ukrainian President Zelenskyy attended an emergency summit with European leaders aimed to project strength and self-reliance, with French President Emmanuel Macron going as far as to say this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EMMANUEL MACRON, FRENCH PRESIDENT: Nuclear deterrent protects us. Responding to the historic appeal of the German chancellor, I decided that we have to increase our protection amongst our allies in Europe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: So Vladimir Putin, never one to back down from a nuclear challenge, responded, quote, there are still people who want to go back to the times of Napoleon, forgetting how it ended.
Our panel, including Annie Linskey is back.
David Axelrod, what do you make of how Trump was talking about this thing that only he knows?
AXELROD: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, there are things that we do know. We do know the Russians have lost 700,000 men. We do know the Russian economy is in shambles. That is an incentive.
But they also have an almost bottomless capacity to suffer that. Historically, that's been true. And, you know. But now they see an opportunity to settle on terms that are favorable to them. And that may be what he knows.
JENNINGS: I'm encouraged by this today. I was very discouraged after the Friday meeting in the Oval Office, which I think Zelenskyy mishandled. I was encouraged that he sent a note to Trump that he actually put it in his address to Congress. And now this today -- I mean, Trump does know things we don't know because he's been talking to them.
And I think that's the role he's going to play here. It's a new player on the field. He promised to end this war. He's talking to both sides and communicating with them in different ways.
He may be the only one that can know certain things because of these conversations, but I'll tell you this. The political will in the United States to continue to fund an open ended conflict is draining, even as I think the people of the United States continue to stand with Ukraine. And they know who the good guys and the bad guys are.
LINSKEY: You know, I will say I was in the Oval Office for that meeting with Zelenskyy last Friday. I guess it was. And one of the things to me that was striking, as I asked the president several times what he had talked to Vladimir Putin about.
And when you think about Trump, he is undisciplined in many regards. He would not say. He was asked many, many times on that front. So I think, like we are all very eager.
[16:50:02]
AXELROD: You know, Scott -- I'm sorry. Go ahead, Van. JONES: You know, I hope that we get to peace and I appreciate that,
you know, Trump wants peace. I don't think he's a very odd, strong man, though. Donald Trump in that, you know, you don't have to vote against our allies, and on the side of Russia in, at the U.N. level to get to peace. You don't have to call Zelenskyy a dictator and not call Putin a dictator to get to peace.
You know, there's something about what he's doing. You know, he's very tough on panama. He's very tough on Greenland. He's very tough on Google maps.
But for some reason, this strongman is not so tough on Putin. And so I hope we get to peace, but I hope we get to peace on terms that don't -- don't empower Vladimir Putin.
AXELROD: Scott is right. If -- if Trump can be the player on the field who can bring these parties together in a fair and equitable way, but you don't want the referee to be wearing the uniform of one of the teams.
And Dmitry Medvedev, the former president of Russia, tweeted this. I think it was today. The Trump administration is no longer no longer wants to feed the Nazi mutt in Kyiv. The flea ridden dog was picked up by a decrepit Europe, joyfully exclaiming my doggy, its no use. The mad parasitic dog is dangerous, so better to put it down quietly without any suffering.
Maybe we're headed toward peace, but this doesn't exactly sound like a conciliatory move, and there's an impression. There's an impression in Russia that Trump is parroting the -- their line, and they've been very explicit about it.
JENNINGS: There's never going to be an end to this where Vladimir Putin goes on television and says, well, I lost, it's not going to happen. The peace will come when both leaders go back home in a face saving way and say, we legitimately --
AXELROD: The question --
JENNINGS: -- came out of this with peace and with something to show for it. They both have to do that. I think Trump is being realistic about it.
AXELROD: The question -- the question is, will there be a moment where they can sit down and sign an agreement where the Ukrainians have some assurance that the Russians won't do what they've done repeatedly, which is to break previous ceasefires and treaties and, and go back to trying to seize land in Ukraine.
That's what Ukraine needs to hear. They need assurances for it. That's how you get to peace from their standpoint.
JONES: And to me, you know, peace through strength means were also strong with our allies. You don't have to put down our allies or run away from them or go over their head. Donald Trump can do everything he's doing right now and get to peace.
At the same time, respect our allies and keep us strong. And I'm worried if we get to peace, ill be the happiest person in America. But I also hope we can keep our alliances at the same time.
LINSKEY: But to David's point, I mean, what the Ukrainians are asking for and what the Europeans are also asking for is some assurance from the United States that they will be there to enforce that peace. And the ones who have been breaking the peace over and over again, it hasn't been the Ukrainians.
HUNT: Yeah. All right. Let's turn now to this. Earlier, we asked all of you sources, friends around town how real are fears of a recession?
Now, here's what we heard from some of you.
One Republican operative writes in this: 100 percent real. We can handle tariffs. What will blow up the economy is not knowing the rules.
And a Democratic fundraiser also wrote in saying this, quote, all the signs point to a slowdown. This is Trump's cross to bear, not Biden's any more.
And you know, Scott Jennings, I will say, you know, I pinged our economic team about this. Obviously, the American people in the election did not feel great about the economy, right? No argument there. It's why Trump won the election.
That said, a lot of the numeric indicators were in fact showing that the economy was on at least relatively stable footing and in some ways growing, fine. You want to argue about that? I'd like to set that aside, because I think the point is were talking about as a change in stability here with President Trump.
And I am curious what you think. There are a lot of people who are on your side of the partisan aisle, who are sounding the alarm about the possibility that this could send us into a recession.
JENNINGS: Two things. One, I think some of the jobs numbers we saw in 2024 were ultimately revised downward. And so I think some of the stability that everybody is touting from the last year of Biden wasn't actually real, that the jobs numbers weren't real. That's number one.
Number two. Yeah, it's a real issue. And any president -- you've worked there, you know, you know, any presidency rises and falls on whether more Americans feel economic security or economic anxiety.
And so the political implications of this are real. Trump's done executive orders. He's made statements. He can do what he can do.
To me, the real rubber hits the road here if and when Congress passes the reconciliation bill. That's the meat of his economic plan. And when that happens, I think the American people will give it some months to work. But how that works out, whether it works and how it affects the American economy, will have great impact on the midterms. AXELROD: You said it at the beginning. Predictability is so much of
so much of this, the betting markets on inauguration day said there was a 1 in 6 chance of a recession in the first quarter.
[16:55:05]
I think the number is 1 in 3 now, and it has a lot to do with what he's been doing.
HUNT: Yeah, the unpredictability.
All right. Coming up next, the potential for a real life Jurassic park except without dinosaurs. A new experiment aiming to bring another animal back from extinction.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Using sophisticated techniques, they extract the preserved blood from the mosquito and bingo! Dino DNA.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Apparently great news for Jurassic Park fans. We may be just one step closer to walking alongside some of our favorite extinct animals. Scientists have used DNA from the wooly mammoth to create wooly mice? I'm sorry. What?
These adorable mice share mammoth like traits with their long, wavy golden fur and the mammals accelerated fat metabolism that allowed them to survive the Ice Age. It was apparently a big step in colossal biosciences mission to bring back the wooly mammoth this decade, as well as the dodo and the Tasmanian tiger.
Unfortunately, we're out of time to let Scott Jennings weigh in on this set of mice. Thanks to him and the rest of the panel for joining us.
"THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER" starts right now.
