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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt
NYT Reports On "Explosive" Trump Cabinet Meeting With Musk; Update On Mysterious Deaths Of Actor Gene Hackman And Wife; Trump Threatens New Tariffs Canada, Including 250 Percent Tax On Dairy. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired March 07, 2025 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[16:00:03]
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: "The King's Music Room" will premiere Monday, March 10th.
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: What do you think is going to be on there?
KEILAR: I don't know.
SANCHEZ: Obviously the new Bad Bunny.
KEILAR: I have no idea.
SANCHEZ: Pitbull.
KEILAR: Some Taylor Swift, maybe. You think?
SANCHEZ: Maybe he's like a big metal guy.
KEILAR: There's got to be some British artists. We're kind of missing -- we're sort of missing that, Boris.
SANCHEZ: British artist.
KEILAR: Yeah, Ed Sheeran, the Beatles, you know, the Beatles?
SANCHEZ: Charli XCX, right? Maybe he's a brat. Maybe he's brat.
KEILAR: THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT starts right now. She would have known.
(MUSIC)
KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: It's Musk versus the cabinet.
Let's head into THE ARENA.
New reporting on fireworks between Elon Musk and members of the Trump cabinet as they met behind closed doors yesterday. What it might reveal about the state of the billionaire's political clout.
Plus, deja vu all over again. President Trump threatens another change to his ever changing tariff policy, as if the confusion and uncertainty weren't stressful enough for Americans and the markets, let alone Canada and Mexico.
And we're standing by for an update on the mysterious deaths of actor Gene Hackman and his wife. With so many questions about what happened, will authorities in New Mexico give us any answers?
(MUSIC)
HUNT: Hi, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. Welcome to THE ARENA. It's wonderful to have you with us on this Friday. We did make it to Friday.
As we come on the air, new reporting breaking this afternoon that gives us reason to ask the question, is there another, quote, rapid, unscheduled disassembly happening for Elon Musk, this time inside the Trump White House?
Overnight, whoa, this. SpaceX Starship disintegrating during a test flight yesterday. Elon Musk's pet project creating a dramatic debris field from Texas to the Caribbean as it blew to pieces. SpaceX writing on X that the Spacecraft experienced a, quote, rapid unscheduled disassembly. I think we would all call it what it is, an explosion.
And that sounds like that's also what may be happening to Musk's relationship with the Trump cabinet. There is new reporting from "The New York Times" this afternoon that details what happened behind closed doors at yesterdays cabinet meeting that included Musk, where the president addressed the billionaire's massive layoffs at federal agencies, telling cabinet secretaries they do have power over staffing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I want the cabinet members -- go first, keep all the people you want, everybody that you need. And so we're going to be watching them, and Elon and the group are going to be watching them. And if they can cut, it's better. And if they don't cut, then Elon will do the cutting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Even with those reassurances from the president, tensions between Musk and Secretary of State Marco reportedly boiled over.
Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan reporting this, quote: Marco Rubio was incensed. Here he was in the cabinet room of the White House, the secretary of state, seated beside the president and listening to a litany of attacks from the richest man in the world. Mr. Musk was unimpressed. He told Mr. Rubio he was good on TV, with the clear subtext being that he wasn't good for much else.
Throughout all this, the president sat back in his chair, arms folded as if he were watching a tennis match.
It all puts this moment from last week's cabinet meeting in a new light.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Hey, Elon, let the Cabinet speak just for a second.
(LAUGHTER)
Is anybody unhappy with Elon? If you are, we'll throw them out of here.
(LAUGHTER)
Is anybody unhappy?
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: All right. So we unfortunately are going to have to get to all that in a second because we do have to get to Santa Fe, New Mexico. There are officials that are updating us on what happened with Gene Hackman and his wife who passed away.
Let's listen.
SHERIFF ADAN MENDOZA, SANTA FE COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE: That on February 9th, 2025, she picked up Zinna from Trudeau veterinary hospital. There was a procedure that was done with the -- with the dog, which may explain why the dog was in a crate at the residence.
Let's move on to February 11th, 2025, Mrs. Arakawa had an email conversation with her massage therapist at about 11:21 a.m. Moving on into the afternoon, Mrs. Arakawa was at the sprouts farmers market between 3:30 and 4:15 p.m.
Ms. Arakawa was seen on surveillance video at the CVS pharmacy in Santa Fe from 4:12 to 4:20 p.m.
She then stopped at a local pet food store at about 4:54 p.m.
[16:05:05]
Her car was seen on surveillance and the remote control clicker that is assigned to her, and her vehicle was used to enter the subdivision to gain access to the gated community at 5:15 p.m.
Numerous emails were unopened on her computer on February 11th. There was no additional outgoing communication from her or known activity after February 11th, 2025.
Cell phone information, the cell phone information and the cell phone data is pending. We're working with state police to get the information from those phones, but our investigation shows that all the last known communication and activity from Ms. Arakawa was on February 11th.
I'm going to go ahead and turn over the podium to Dr. Jarrell. I would ask that everybody refrain from asking questions until everybody has -- has provided their statements. All step up to the podium and then we'll go ahead and field questions from the media.
Thank you.
DR. HEATHER JARRELL, CHIEF MEDICAL INVESTIGATOR, NEW MEXICO OFFICE OF THE MEDICAL INVESTIGATOR: Good afternoon and thank you for being here. I'm Dr. Heather Jarrell, the chief medical examiner for New Mexico at the office of the medical investigator.
I'd like to begin by stating that it is unprecedented for the Office of the Medical Investigator to make public statements about death investigations. However, the circumstances surrounding these two deaths require accurate dissemination of important information.
I've also spoken with the Hackman family prior to this conference who are aware of the autopsy findings and conclusions and are aware of this conference.
On Thursday, February 27th, I performed an autopsy on Mr. Gene Hackman. Medical examiner, Dr. Daniel Gallego, at the Office of the Medical Investigator, performed a full autopsy on Ms. Betsy Arakawa Hackman, also on Thursday, February 27th.
By report, Ms. Arakawa Hackman's legal name is Betsy Hackman, which is how she will be referred to hereafter.
The cause of death for Ms. Betsy Hackman, aged 65 years, is hantavirus pulmonary syndrome. The manner of death is natural. Autopsy, examination and full body postmortem CT demonstrated no findings of trauma internally or externally, with microscopic findings consistent with hantavirus pulmonary syndrome.
Laboratory testing was positive for hantavirus. At a clinical lab with required confirmation testing positive at scientific laboratories division testing for COVID 19, influenza and other common respiratory viruses was negative. Testing for carbon monoxide was negative. There were no other significant natural disease findings.
Pills present on scene were thyroid medication, which were being taken as prescribed and is not currently a concern for a contributory cause of death.
The cause of death for Mr. Gene Hackman, aged 95 years, is hypertensive and atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease with Alzheimer's disease as a significant contributory factor. Autopsy, examination and a full body postmortem CT examination demonstrated no acute findings of internal or external trauma and showed severe heart disease, including multiple surgical procedures involving the heart, evidence of prior heart attacks, and severe changes of the kidneys due to chronic high blood pressure.
Examination of the brain showed advanced Alzheimer's disease as well as blood vessel changes in the brain secondary to chronic high blood pressure. Laboratory testing performed at scientific laboratories division was negative for COVID 19, influenza and other common respiratory viruses. Testing for hantavirus was negative. Testing for carbon monoxide was negative. [16:10:04]
Additionally, there were no autopsy findings concerning for hantavirus infection.
I have been asked when death occurred for these individuals. There is no reliable scientific method to accurately determine the exact time or date of death. Mr. Hackman's initial pacemaker data revealed cardiac activity on February 17th, with subsequent pacemaker interrogation demonstrating an abnormal rhythm of atrial fibrillation on February 18th, which was the last record of heart activity.
Based on this information, it is reasonable to conclude that Mr. Hackman probably died around February 18th. Based on the circumstances, it is reasonable to conclude that Ms. Hackman passed away first, with February 11th being the last time that she was known to be alive.
Lastly, clinically, hantavirus infection is characterized by flu-like symptoms consisting of fever, muscle aches, cough, sometimes vomiting, and diarrhea that can progress to shortness of breath and cardiac or heart failure and lung failure. This occurs after a one to eight week exposure to excrement from a primarily particular mouse species that carries hantavirus.
The mortality of hantavirus, excuse me, the mortality rate of the hantavirus strain in the Southwest is about 38 to 50 percent. The hantavirus strains in the United States are not transmissible from person to person. And so this is an appropriate time to segue to Dr. Aaron Phipps, the state public health veterinarian with the New Mexico Department of Health.
But before I do so, id like to kindly ask for everyone to please respect the privacy that Mr. Gene Hackman, Ms. Betsy Hackman and their family and friends deserve. Thank you. Thank you.
HUNT: All right. We've been listening to officials in New Mexico. Let us know more information about the deaths of Gene Hackman and his wife at their New Mexico home. We want to talk briefly with CNN's Josh Campbell. He's been following this investigation and is on scene.
Josh, help us understand what we learned there and how it fits into all of this.
JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. Significant update just now from officials, specifically the medical examiner, after conducting the autopsies on both actor Gene Hackman, as well as his wife, Betsy.
We previously had reported based on information from the sheriff that the last known pacemaker activity for the actor Gene Hackman, was on February 18th. But we just learned that sheriff's investigators actually went back and tried to determine when was the last known activity for Betsy. They did this mass canvass, including where she had gone previously to various stores, to a pet store, to a pharmacy. They even examined the device, the remote control used to access their gated subdivision. And what sheriff's officials concluded is that February 11th. So several days before the last known pacemaker activity for Gene, February 11th, Betsy, there was no activity. They said that there were multiple unopened emails beyond that time. And so, again, what the medical examiner said is that there's no known science that will specifically tell you exactly when someone died, the date and the time. But you look at the totality of the circumstances here, it appears that she died first, and then several days later, Gene Hackman then also died.
One other interesting note there, because there's been a question about, you know, we've been wondering, did some one of them died before the other, you know, significant amount of time? It appears, according to the medical examiner, that upon looking at the autopsy that the actor was suffering from Alzheimer's disease. And so there is a question about what may have been his state of mind after his wife had passed away.
So, again, a significant update. Their information that we've been waiting for, we just got there from the medical examiner.
HUNT: Really, really difficult.
Josh, thanks very much for that reporting. I really appreciate it.
Joining us now is forensic toxicologist, Dr. William Morrone.
Doctor, I'm just hoping that based on what you heard just there from those officials that you can help us understand in more layman's terms, what were they saying about what happened?
DR. WILLIAM MORRONE, MPH, CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER, BAY COUNTY & MIDLAND COUNTY, MICHIGAN: What they're saying is it wasn't an accident. She didn't die from a fall, and that the diagnostic testing revealed an infection from hantavirus.
Now, what makes hantavirus very important is you're going to see it in New Mexico, Nevada, Idaho, California, Arizona. It's very specific to that geography. And it's a virus found in deer, mice, rodent population. And then it spreads to humans. You're not going to see hantavirus in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. You're not going to see hantavirus in New Haven, Connecticut.
So it's part of that geography. And I think he talked about the mortality somewhere between 13 to 50 percent because it's hard to tell. You don't know you have it. You just think you have the flu. But there's no treatment. There's only support. That's very specific.
What that would say is that she could have died of hantavirus, shortness of breath, lack of oxygen and a spouse with Alzheimer's would continue to move around the house not knowing that his partner was deceased. So that's a projected timeline that now, based on IT, we would think that Mrs. Hackman died first, and Gene Hackman died second.
We know his death is recorded with the software interrogation from the pacemaker, because the pacemaker in his situation reacts back and forth and his heart stopped at a very specific time, and that was almost a week after she last made emails. That's a specific timeline. And it wasn't an accident and it wasn't toxic. It wasn't poison.
She died of natural conditions, and hantavirus is very rare. It's always a test question in medical school so that you can work it in a differential, maybe in west Texas and New Mexico. And it starts in rodents. It starts in deer mice.
That's very specific to take the conspiracies off. And he was an all- American (AUDIO GAP), heart attack.
HUNT: All right. Doctor, thanks very much. Dr. William Morrone, I really appreciate you helping us say exactly what -- what -- those officials told us happened. Really appreciate your time today.
All right. Coming up next here, we're going to go back to our conversation about Elon Musk and that explosive new report in "The New York Times" detailing the private blowup between the billionaire and members of President Trump's cabinet.
Plus, growing uncertainty over the economy after the president's dramatic pivots this week alone.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: No clash, I was there. You're just a troublemaker. And you're not supposed to be asking that question because were talking about the World Cup.
Elon gets along great with Marco, and they're both doing a fantastic job. There is no clash.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: President Trump just there denying a clash between Elon Musk and Secretary of State Marco Rubio at a cabinet meeting yesterday. So he's disputing a pretty detailed report from "The New York Times" that we ran you through earlier in the hour.
We're joined now by our panel to discuss. Amy Walter, publisher and editor in chief of "Cook Political Report". Chuck Todd, the host of "The Chuck Toddcast", and you know him from somewhere else, too. Former Congressman Mondaire Jones; and Brad Todd, a Republican strategist and CNN political commentator.
Welcome to all of you.
Chuck, welcome to CNN.
CHUCK TODD, HOST OF "THE CHUCK TODDCAST": I -- you know, it's good to be here. HUNT: It's wonderful to have you.
C. TODD: Good work over here.
HUNT: Well, I've loved doing good work with you over many, many years. And I'm grateful that you're here.
Let's talk about what the times is reporting. This is Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan. And while the president is obviously disputing it, the details are really granular and quite something down to the back and forth. Apparently, Musk, they report, telling Rubio, you fired nobody.
Rubio shouting back that or -- I shouldn't say shouting back. They don't report that. But saying back to him, Mr. Musk was not being truthful. And he asked sarcastically whether Mr. Musk wanted him to rehire all the people that he could make a show of firing again.
C. TODD: You know what I find interesting about this is a few things. When you actually think about President Trump's cabinet. The one person who probably feels the least amount of deference to the president is Marco Rubio, right? He actually ran against him, you know, for president in 2016. And he you know, he has.
So he probably considers himself more of a peer. So I find it interesting that of the one cabinet member who is most likely to speak out, it's the guy who's been around the block and he has, right, everybody else hasn't been.
AMY WALTER, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, COOK POLITICAL REPORT: And probably the guy that's getting the calls from all the senators that he knows well who are saying --
C. TODD: He's getting more of it --
WALTER: -- you get -- that's right. He's getting all those calls from Senate Republicans, probably a lot of Senate Democrats, too, saying, I'm getting a lot of blowback in my state, and we need to do something about these cuts.
C. TODD: Guess what? Donald Trump -- I mean, you know, this sort of guard. It worked, right? What does Trump said?
He's now said the cabinet secretaries need to work with -- with Musk. Because my guess is Marco Rubio is just the only voice. Doesn't mean he's the only person who felt this.
HUNT: Well, Brad Todd, they go on to report as well that there was back and forth with Sean Duffy, which I think is worth remarking upon because Duffy was concerned about firing air traffic controllers. And he said, quote, this is "The Times" reporting said.
[16:25:01]
Mr. Duffy said the young staff of Mr. Musk's team was trying to lay off air traffic controllers. What am I supposed to do? Mr. Duffy said. I have multiple plane crashes to deal with now, and your people want me to fire air traffic controllers?
Mr. Musk told Mr. Duffy his assertion was a lie. Mr. Duffy insisted it was not. He had heard it from them directly.
Now it sounds like, based on their reporting, it was these two willing to take on Musk, and then everybody else kept their mouths shut after that. But what do you make of it?
BRAD TODD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, there probably are more people with objections than voiced them, and as long as the point was being made, they was taking care of it.
And I think you have to give President Trump credit for having an environment where people could take -- take on each other and challenge it. I mean, this is a very healthy situation in many ways. I mean, I don't know, the last cabinet meeting Joe Biden had, I think Jill Biden chaired it.
And so to see this actual voice, voice of clash going on is right. President Trump's critics have also said you need to let the subject matter experts weigh in. That's what Sean Duffy is saying. They've said you need a scalpel. That's what President Trump said.
So this process is maturing is what I would call it.
HUNT: Congressman?
MONDAIRE JONES (D), FORMER U.S. CONGRESSMAN: There is nothing normal or professional or competent about an unelected billionaire who has no experience in the federal government or any government for that matter, dictating arbitrary cuts, whether it is to the Federal Aviation Authority, as planes are falling out of the sky, historically, in this country, or to the -- to the Department of State, which historically has not had enough staff actually, which has undercut our diplomatic efforts abroad.
So I'm horrified by it. And I think it speaks to the lack of interest that the president himself has in running the government that he would delegate so much to a billionaire who wants to feel important and who's just sort of throwing his weight around, but isn't being thoughtful about the way in which he wants to reduce so-called waste in government?
HUNT: Chuck, do you think that the -- the willingness of President Trump to actually, apparently take some of this on board because he comes out of this meeting, right. And the reporting is, well, actually, the power is going to be with the cabinet secretaries.
Yeah. If you don't cut like I'm going to let Elon come in and do it. But it is a change for him. Is that a sign that there are problems that Trump is having problems with Elon's doing, political problems?
C. TODD: We know two things about Donald Trump is that he doesn't like bad publicity, and Elon Musk has been getting some bad publicity, and he doesn't like when the markets are down. And that's why he keeps pivoting when it comes. There are a couple of guardrails that I think impact his decision
making. And look, Musk is getting him nothing but bad press. And there was always going to be this breaking point with him.
And look, I think I -- look, I think he's actually handled this about, you know, there's a chaotic-ness to Trump that we're all kind of used to now. But this is sort of I'm mildly surprised that Trump took the side of his cabinet.
WALTER: Rather than going full steam.
C. TODD: Yeah, exactly.
WALTER: He kept going --
C. TODD: He could have.
WALTER: -- steam ahead.
C. TODD: I mean, my favorite description in the write up is that -- is that --
(CROSSTALK)
C. TODD: -- is that Trump -- is that Trump sat back here watching like a tennis match. He enjoyed -- I promise you, he enjoyed watching Elon and Marco fight --
B. TODD: But that's a normal --
C. TODD: -- before daddy.
B. TODD: -- CEO thing to let people.
C. TODD: Well, it's a normal Trump thing. Not every CEO does that.
B. TODD: But this governments been in place for a month and a half. Some of these cabinet secretaries have been in office for a couple of weeks.
C. TODD: Some of them a couple of days.
B. TODD: Right. Some of them a couple of days. So this is only normal. But in many ways, Elon Musk has set a standard, right? We're going to make the government more efficient.
Polling shows 60 percent. I have a poll this week. 60 percent of the country thinks Trump is keeping his promises on that. So Musk has set a standard. Now the cabinet secretaries have to live up to it and Trump's going to empower them. I don't see how this is not the process at work as its supposed to work.
WALTER: Yeah. I mean, I do think at the end of the day, this has always been the question, and this is what for Democrats, they are not just secretly hoping but outwardly hoping will happen is that Trump doesn't have a modulating switch, that he just goes full bore, we're going to go all in with Musk no matter what the blowback. We're going to go all in on tariffs no matter what the blowback. We're going to go all in on these tax cuts no matter what the blowback. And in this case, right, pulling back a little bit.
Now, does this mean that we're not going to see as many cuts? I don't know. Does this mean that this is going to placate some of the Republicans who are very anxious right now hearing from their constituents about programs and monies that are no longer coming into their state? I don't know.
But it is a sign that he said -- he sees that.
C. TODD: This cabinet meeting clearly had an impact, because what did we hear yesterday? He had Susan Collins talking about the fact that, hey, there's been an agreement that were going to vote on these cuts. Well, what does that mean? It is Musk accepting the premise that he's making recommendations. He is not making policy, and that the fact -- the fact that that has shifted, I think shows you that this is -- Musk got his first haircut.
Here's my question. How does Musk handle getting a haircut in public like this?
MONDAIRE: Yeah. You know, if they want to do this through the legislative process, which is the appropriate way to approach eliminating waste, eliminating fraud, otherwise reducing the size of government, which is Republican orthodoxy. There's nothing surprising about that. And you're right.
(CROSSTALK)
HUNT: I mean, I talked to Elizabeth Warren the other day and she said, of course, well eliminate waste fraud with.
(CROSSTALK)
MONDAIRE: The freaking Defense Department, which has failed an audit every single year, like for most of the past decade.
[16:30:04]
But you don't hear them talking about that. But, you know, easier said than done when it comes to the legislative process. I mean, they're trying to figure out how they can get a CR, a continuing resolution passed just to keep the lights on up until the end of September. So, and do that, by the way, without cutting Medicaid, which they voted for effectively when they voted for this budget resolution. And are some of these swing district Republicans are saying they -- they won't vote for an actual budget that cuts funding for Medicaid.
B. TODD: I want to call -- call the bluff on Elizabeth Warren, though. The Democrats don't want to cut waste, fraud and abuse. They don't want to cut anything. Everything grew under Joe Biden and they have no plans.
HUNT: The point I was trying to make by saying that is that Democrats are willing to say they understand that what you're knowing from your polling, right, that people, Americans, think that the government often wastes and has, you know, abuse or fraud inside it. And that's fine. And they are recognizing that. That's -- that's the only point I was trying to make.
Everybody stand by. Right now, we want to know, what are you hearing? To all my sources and friends around town, you know who you are. Check your inbox. Here's our question for you today: Is Donald Trump on the side of Elon Musk or his cabinet? We'll give you to the bottom of the hour. Send us your thoughts, tips, exclusives. As you know, if this is the wrong question or everyone at this table is horribly wrong, do write us. Let us know what it is were getting wrong, and viewers will let you in on this conversation coming up later on in the hour.
Up next, new reporting over a meeting called by Hakeem Jeffries to address how some Democrats behaved at this week's presidential address.
Plus, what the head of the Fed is saying about Trump's economic whiplash.
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[16:35:57]
HUNT: All right. It's deja vu all over again. The president suddenly changing his ever-changing policy on tariffs again today, with a new threat to slap Canada with reciprocal taxes on lumber and dairy, maybe as soon as today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Canada has been ripping us off for years on tariffs, for lumber and for dairy products, 250 percent. Nobody ever talks about that, 250 percent tariff, which is taking advantage of our farmers. So that's not going to happen anymore.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Wait a second. Didn't Trump give Canada a one month reprieve from sweeping tariffs just 24 hours ago?
This "Axios" article sums up what many others are thinking. Donald Trump is building a reputation for himself as the flip flopper in chief. The president, who, after announcing a bold new policy today, is more than likely to reverse it tomorrow.
Now, that said, there was some positive economic news amid all the chaos. It depends a little bit on how you read it. The U.S. added 151,000 jobs in February, just missing expectations. The unemployment rate did tick up to 4.1 percent.
Those numbers, though, don't tell the whole story of the economic impact of the presidents back and forth and efforts by DOGE to slash the government, and we can actually, my producer, put together this timeline that we can put up on the screen, kind of showing what this has all been like. And it's basically like if you're looking at the green or the red, you're riding a roller coaster.
They're on again, they're off again. They're on again. They're off again.
And I mean, Brad Todd, for business, right, it's certainty that has made America as strong as its been for all this time. This is very, very far from certainty.
B. TODD: Business and markets crave certainty and predictability for sure. And that is a risk. He's running with the on again/off again. However, his goal is much longer term. And that is to change the mindset of people who build industrial capacity.
We're already seeing the effects of that. Honda Motor Company is now going to build a plant in Indiana to build the civic Hybrid, instead of building it in Mexico. Apple's moving a half $1 trillion of factories here.
So he's trying to change this over the long term, he said. In the State of the Union, there's going to be a little pain, maybe have a little short term pain. We'll see how the voters handle that. But this is a president who's term-limited, so he's willing to take a little bit of pain to achieve his long term goal.
HUNT: How do voters typically handle it, Chuck?
C. TODD: Not well. Long term pain never, never, never goes well.
What's interesting to me is how -- look, one thing you have to know, he does believe in tariffs. He is believed in this. He wanted to slap tariffs on Japan in 1987. Okay. The man believes in this.
And I do think the longer term what I really think he believes in. And, Brad, you'll remember this is -- he won't say it's the fair tax, but I really think he wants America to move to a consumption tax structure away from the IRS to his external. So I think this is a massive shift long term that his goal is and he's not alone here. There are people behind him that do want to go to a consumption tax system, get rid of the income tax.
So I do think that there is a with him. Its sort of what is he up to. But the personalization of his anger at Canada versus his good relationship with Claudia Sheinbaum, which I think is fascinating, right? Justin Trudeau is a very antagonizing --
HUNT: It is very confusing.
(CROSSTALK)
C. TODD: It's easy. Trump personally --
WALTER: Trudeau is antagonized.
C. TODD: Right. Trudeau went after Trump. Trudeau used -- used Trump for his own political benefit.
Sheinbaum hasn't done that. AMLO didn't do that back in Mexico.
So weirdly, they've managed -- they have -- both AMLO and Sheinbaum, sort of get Trump. They hand him something every time he needs something. Oh, we got some guys, we got some cartel guys, we get you some cartel guys, right? And what does he do? He backs off with.
It's the same thing that's going on with Ukraine. He's -- Donald Trump blames Zelenskyy and Ukraine for all of his political problems. So he's automatically going to be antagonistic.
HUNT: Yeah.
C. TODD: He blames Trudeau for helping to spin up liberal discontent with him during his first term. So I -- I really think.
B. TODD: It's also because Trudeau is weak. He doesn't like weak people.
C. TODD: Well, I think he just thinks he can exploit it. He knows Trudeau is at the end here. And I think that's the motivation in this moment of this erratic behavior towards Canada.
[16:40:01]
HUNT: So, Amy, if Trudeau goes, will Trump change his tune toward Canada?
STEWART: Well, let's see -- what's going to happen. The most fascinating piece of the Canadian election, not that we are following it as closely at the Cook Political Report as we are Americans.
C. TODD: But I'm following this election. But I'm not -- I'm not.
HUNT: I'm following it for the first time, probably ever.
WALTER: Because if you watch the polls, the liberal party which was dead in the water has come back because of Trump's attacks on Trudeau, who's not running again. But it has given life to the party and ads that are going up right now against the conservative candidate feature, Donald Trump. That's all you need to know.
HUNT: Really remarkable.
All right. We're going to talk to you next up Monday about the Democratic Party. We're going to dig in to the multiple headlines today signaling continued party dysfunction, both in the way to confront President Trump and how to handle internal disagreements.
Plus, something totally different news today on Britain's King Charles. He's got a new gig like he needs one. But we'll tell you about it.
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[16:45:22]
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REP. MAXWELL FROST (D-FL): Democrats have to stick together in opposition. I've been saying we have the choice. Are we going to act like and be the minority, or are we going to act like and be the opposition in this moment?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: So far, Democrats have not been united in how to oppose Donald Trump. It seems like things aren't getting better anytime soon.
Hakeem Jeffries and other party leaders held a meeting yesterday with some of the most vocal critics of Trump, including the man you saw there, Maxwell Frost, and Jasmine Crockett, one of his colleagues, to address their recent behavior.
Meanwhile, on the policy front, house and Senate Democrats are taking two different approaches to the looming government shutdown. How -- the House says Republicans are on their own to pass a spending bill, while Senate Democrats do appear to be open to supporting it.
Congressman, what was it that made it so that Hakeem Jeffries is having this meeting now, after this behavior has already played out on the floor in public, giving Democrats a number of news cycles they probably wish they didn't have to live through, instead of figuring it out before.
JONES: Look, I don't know what the leader is thinking in terms of this conversation with a dozen or so House Democrats. I know that the headline should be House Democrats are organizing to figure out how to effectively respond to the illegal and otherwise dangerous conduct, including with respect to the economy, that the Trump administration is displaying.
The American people don't care about what happened during the State of the Union. I mean, this idea that that somehow it damaged Democrats because Al Green stood up and shook his cane at the president is, I think, completely at odds with the lived experience of Americans who are seeing prices go up. Despite what this president said he would do on the campaign trail.
And the other thing I would just say is Democrats should not take for granted a motivated base in 2026. Obviously, they've got to build coalition, especially in swing districts, with -- with independents and maybe some disaffected Republicans who, if they're not horrified today, will certainly be by November of 2026. And that means they need to listen to Democratic voters when they say, we want to see you fight, we want to see you fight. And I happen not to agree with the particular approach that Al Green took the night of the State of the Union.
I -- my preference would have been for Democrats not to show up, because they could have predicted that he would berate them and otherwise misrepresent their views the way he did throughout what was, in my view, a very despicable and unbecoming speech. HUNT: Amy, what do you see? I mean, you're looking at this data all
the time, like the point about the base of the Democratic Party. I mean, I will say when I talk to my sources and friends who are occupy that space in the party like they are really disillusioned with their own leaders. Sure.
WALTER: But midterm elections are not about the party out of power. They're about the party in power. And I just think back to, you know, the -- the one year that everybody goes to is 2006. And so you're hearing a lot of Democrats saying, we need another Rahm Emanuel, who's going to be able to get in there and the message and the discipline and the candidates.
Well, a couple of things going for him as well. The war was unpopular. The president was deeply unpopular. And it was right after the horrible impact of Katrina.
Those things helped Democrats much more than who was getting recruited or who was standing up and booing or whatever else. The -- the circumstances are important, and the one big or a couple big flashing yellow lights. I think if you're a Republican in this midterm, besides the fact that history usually works against you when you're the party in power, is the economy and those flashing yellow lights there.
And the second is polling take in the most competitive districts. This was a poll that Tony Fabrizio, the pollster for Donald Trump, put out a couple of weeks back that showed in those most competitive districts, the ones that are going to determine the House, Democrats have a four point lead on the congressional ballot, which is four points better than they performed in the last election.
This is without any messaging. This is without any big pronouncements of a manifesto for the -- for Democrats. So I think sometimes, you know, we put way too much focus on the party who's out of power in the same way that Republicans, when they were out of power, they were struggling with the same thing, and they managed to come back and win the House, the Senate and the White House.
HUNT: Because there is this sort of this, this pendulum that is swinging.
WALTER: And it's about who's in charge, right?
HUNT: Yeah.
C. TODD: House minorities always look ridiculous trying to get attention. Like whether I remember Republican House minorities using paper bags in their head to try to get attention.
B. TODD: Tuesday night was Democrats couldn't cheer for popular thing.
[16:50:03]
C. TODD: Oh, look, it was a brilliantly written own the libs trolling speech in order to create awkward moments like that. B. TODD: They didn't have to be owned. I mean, they could have chosen
to clap for the border crossings being down. There were a lot of things.
C. TODD: But -- but I do think you have a party. Jeffries and Schumer are acting paralyzed because they have two different constituencies. They have ones who are worried about a left wing Tea Party, and they should be worried about that, because I do think this anger inside the base is real.
HUNT: Yeah.
C. TODD: Then you have others who are like, hey, I won, and Trump carried my state.
WALTER: Yep.
C. TODD: So I've got to do this. So I think that's why Jeffries and Schumer come across as paralyzed, because they're trying to placate a coalition party that doesn't know which direction to go to.
This really -- they should be having a loud argument the way Bill Clinton and Jesse Jackson did in 1989 and 1990, after a thrashing in 1988, where Republicans won. And the problem is, the Democrats right now are afraid of having a public debate because they don't want to help out Trump. But I do think it's -- I do think it's stifling their ability to figure out what to do next.
JONES: Can I just say, I think many elected Democrats are doing this so poorly that they're missing that there's actually not a ton of tension between people who live in those swing states and -- and the base of the Democratic Party. I mean, if Democrats advance and articulate a robust economic populism that even stridently calls out this administration, I don't think they lose votes. I think people want to know that Democrats are feeling the economic pain that the American people, that the American people are feeling, rather that -- that Democrats understand that pain and that they're able to give voice to it.
And that's actually one of the things that Bernie Sanders does pretty well.
B. TODD: Only three districts are held by Republicans that Kamala Harris won. There are 13 districts that Donald Trump won that are held by Democrats. Democrats can't take the House unless they appeal to people who voted for Donald Trump. That's their challenge.
HUNT: All right. Very interesting.
And this is a conversation were having around this table, I imagine, for the, you know, two years until these midterm elections that Amy is --
C. TODD: Hasn't even been 60 days.
HUNT: -- so well versed in, I know. C. TODD: It hasn't been 60 days with Trump, as I like to tell you. And here we are.
HUNT: All right. So earlier we asked all of our sources and friends around town, is Donald Trump on the side of Elon Musk or on the side of his cabinet? Here's what a couple of you had to say.
One Democratic communications strategist wrote this. I view this play as Trump throwing his cabinet a bone so they stay hungry for him and making Elon work a little.
A Republican campaign operative says Trump won't take a side. He'll operate in the same ad hoc seat of his pants style he's always been known for. He knows what cuts are and aren't popular.
Chuck, you said that Democratic strategist is right?
C. TODD: I think they're both right. Actually, they both sort of mean Trump. Trump. Trump is not, you know, he's -- he will empower Elon when he decides to empower Elon again. And right now I think he did have to throw his cabinet a bone.
B. TODD: We've had two cabinet meetings in a week. Joe Biden didn't have two cabinet meetings in three seasons.
C. TODD: They had to have a second cabinet meeting.
HUNT: Right.
C. TODD: That's the news, Brad.
B. TODD: But --
C. TODD: They had to. You had to let the -- you had to let the heat out of the, you know --
B. TODD: It's a government that's doing something and a president.
(CROSSTALK)
B. TODD: -- who's capable of chairing one though.
HUNT: Yeah, I mean --
C. TODD: Okay, I get what you're saying. There. But the reality is, if you have to hold a second cabinet meeting in a week, something went wrong.
MONDAIRE: The comparison is crazy to me, because when Joe Biden was president, you didn't have planes falling out of the sky. You didn't have tens of thousands of federal workers who have particular expertise, whether in matters of administering Social Security or Medicare or anything at the NIH, which is doing the cancer research that Donald Trump has been working to cut.
HUNT: Yeah, people just thought Joe Biden wasn't in charge, though, because he was too old to do the job.
MONDAIRE: But you know what?
HUNT: That's what people said --
MONDAIRE: The government, the perception was unfortunate. And sadly, you know, the president should not have sought reelection. But the fact is he knew how to run the government. And he had competent people around him who had experience in government rather than tech bros who, because of their billions of dollars, think that they know everything and as a result are wreaking havoc.
We all could have predicted that we would have been in this situation where, yeah, all of these cuts that have been happening now, people are questioning them, and now were having to go back and be like, oh yeah, we have to -- we have to rehire those people who are doing god's work.
HUNT: Yeah. I mean, Amy, no way that Elon Musk survives all this bad press for him at Donald Trump's expense if he's not the richest man in the world.
WALTER: Oh!
HUNT: Right?
WALTER: You mean if he didn't already have that going for him, he probably wouldn't have been asked to do this if this wasn't --
HUNT: Fair enough.
WALTER: -- the richest man in the world.
HUNT: Fair enough.
All right, up next here, how's this for a turn? Buckingham Palace may soon be Britain's hottest club with an in-house deejay. We'll explain.
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[06:59:21]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KING CHARLES, GREAT BRITAIN: So this is what I particularly wanted to share with you songs which have brought me joy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: King Charles, now a deejay? I'm sorry. What?
King Charles is partnering apparently with Apple Music for a one off special broadcast from Kylie Minogue to Bob Marley to Ray. Apparently they want it to be a hit for all generations. The king is one upping President Obama's annual playlist by recording an entire set filled with anecdotes from his encounters with the featured artists and explaining why his chosen songs form the soundtrack to his life, including hits like this one.
(MUSIC)
HUNT: All right. "The King's Music Room" will premiere on Monday, just in time for Commonwealth Day. No word on if Donald Trump may invite him to deejay at Mar-a-Lago, as Donald Trump often likes to do himself.
Guys, thank you very much for being a wonderful panel today,
Chuck. I hope you'll come back. Nice to see you on TV.
C. TODD: Thanks for having me.
HUNT: Appreciate it.
All right. Don't go anywhere.
"THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER" starts right now.
