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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt
Stocks Crater After Trump Doesn't Rule Out Recession This Year; New Report Of Growing Tension Between Musk And Bannon; Secretary Rubio In Saudi Arabia To Meet Ukrainian, Russian Officials; Musk: X Cyberattack Traces Back To Ukrainian IP Addresses; Josh Allen & Bills Reach Record-Setting Contract. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired March 10, 2025 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: And he wouldn't rule it out.
[16:00:02]
And no one likes the R-word, Boris, for sure.
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Yeah, it's interesting that he would not rule it out. He says he doesn't want to make predictions. That was during a Fox News interview that aired yesterday. Yet his Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick much more bullish. He says a recession is not going to happen this year.
And there is your closing bell on Wall Street. Yeah, it's a -- it's a tough one and there's a lot to discuss regarding the stock market. You're going to hear more about it though in just a few seconds, right?
KEILAR: That's right.
On THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT.
KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: It's Trump versus the economy.
Let's head into THE ARENA.
Stock prices just tanked after President Trump wouldn't rule out a recession in the U.S. this year. I'll ask former Treasury Secretary Larry Summers about the economic fallout from Trump's trade war.
Plus, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is in Saudi Arabia for talks with Secretary of State Marco Rubio just weeks after being berated by Trump in the Oval Office. Is a peace deal in the works?
And is Elon Musk in the middle of a MAGA civil war pitting him against cabinet members and Trump's OG MAGA ally, Steve Bannon, and putting the president in the unusual role of mediator?
(MUSIC)
HUNT: Hi, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. Welcome to THE ARENA. It's wonderful to have you with us on this Monday. Today, promises made, promises breaking. It sure looks like it on Wall
Street, where the markets have cratered, the Dow closing down nearly 900 points just moments ago, it had plunged more than 1,100 points earlier before regaining a little bit.
The steep sell off hitting the Nasdaq and the S&P 500 as well after, of course, President Trump said this over the weekend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARIA BARTIROMO, FOX NEWS HOST: Are you expecting a recession this year?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I hate to predict things like that. There is a period of transition because what we're doing is very big. We're bringing wealth back to America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: The president refusing to rule out that one of Americans' worst fears about the economy could soon become a reality. Surely, he didn't mean to do that, right?
He was asked again hours later on board Air Force One.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Are you worried about a recession? Maria Bartiromo asked you, and you kind of hesitated.
TRUMP: I'll tell you what - of course, you hesitate, who knows?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Who knows?
So you're going to have to forgive me for asking this question. I had thought that President Trump promised repeatedly on the campaign trail that the economy was going to be absolutely great if he was elected. Oh, right. He did.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: A lot of people say the only reason the stock markets high is everyone thinks I'm going to win the election. My economic plan is to make America richer than ever before.
But starting on day one, I will quickly defeat inflation. Vote Trump and your incomes will soar. Your net worth will skyrocket. Your energy costs and grocery prices will come tumbling down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Now, it has been less than two months since Trump took office as his supporters are, shall we say, quick to point out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEVIN HASSETT, WHITE HOUSE NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL DIRECTOR: We've got a Biden economy that, you know, still, most of Biden policies are in place.
REP. NICOLE MALLIOTAKIS (R-NY): There's been talk about a recession for well over the past year. This is something that has been a threat going back to the Biden administration.
SEN. RICK SCOTT (R-FL): Donald Trump walked in with a with a crappy economy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: But we know this much. Since Donald Trump has taken office, layoffs are mounting, hiring is slowing, consumer confidence is eroding, and inflation is picking up speed. And again, this is what the market looks like just minutes after the close, the day after the president made those comments.
So are we watching President Trump break his promises to the American people in real time?
Let's go to the White House, where we find CNN's Jeff Zeleny.
Jeff, always wonderful to see you. I'm really curious what the reaction, the ongoing reaction today has been inside the White House as we've watched the markets plummet. I mean, the president now has been insisting he doesn't pay any attention to the markets.
That historically has not been the case for Donald Trump. But how are they feeling about the remark that he made and the reaction that we are clearly seeing play out today?
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kasie, the reaction so far is crickets. We have not heard from President Trump at all today or White House officials. There is no formal briefing.
So the reality here is, of course, advisors are watching that market really all day long, hour by hour, as stocks were amounting to their worst fall off yet this year, but no official comments. However, for all the talk about the Biden economy, it's the Trump policies that are rattling the markets.
[16:05:06]
When you talk to economic advisers, they say it's not necessarily just the threat of tariffs off and on. Again, it's the uncertainty that all that creates and the markets clearly have responded that way. So the president over the weekend saying that he couldn't rule out a recession and then later flying back to Washington on Air Force One.
He also said people are going to have so much money in their pockets, they wont know what to spend it on. Well, that simply is not the matter of fact here. When you look at your 401(k)s today, which of course we don't recommend on a daily basis, that's not how it works.
But look, the bottom line to all of this is the president insisting he is not being guided by the daily ups and downs of the market, but that does sort of belie what we know from his past. He has often watched that, but his advisors this time around say, look, he's not running for reelection. He's thinking more long term. He does believe these -- these tariffs will help the economy overall and make more wealth here, create more growth here.
But that simply has not been communicated and has not happened yet. Even as Beijing was adding more tariffs on the farm sector products like wheat and corn and chicken, concern about that, of course, aluminum and steel tariffs are coming up this Wednesday.
So, all of these are mounting to the fact that the White House is in a bit of whiplash here. And again, at the end of this day, at least at 4:00, the president uncharacteristically has not said a word -- Kasie.
HUNT: Yeah. I feel like this morning, actually, I was expecting to have heard from him a couple of times by now. So pretty noteworthy.
Jeff, thank you very much. Appreciate it as always.
All right. Our panel is here. Annie Linskey, White House reporter for "The Wall Street Journal", former Democratic Senator Al Franken of Minnesota. He's also playing a role in the upcoming Netflix series "The Residents", which I'm very excited to see. Former federal prosecutor, CNN legal analyst Elliot Williams is here. And Scott Jennings, CNN senior political commentator and a former political director for Senator Mitch McConnell.
Senator, thanks for being here.
AL FRANKEN (D), FORMER MINNESOTA GOVERNOR: Well, thank you for having me.
HUNT: You watched some of those things we stacked together of President Trump on the campaign trail. Your reaction considering what we've seen today from the markets.
FRANKEN: Well, he sort of guaranteed that things would get better as soon as he was president. Like the day he took the oath of office and that Americans would see their investments go up and the stock market would go up. And turns out that now he is acknowledging that we are in a good -- there's a chance, a good chance that we'll go into a recession. And we see --
HUNT: And you're telling me there's --
FRANKEN: -- prices go up. I'm sorry?
HUNT: I'm sorry. It's a joke.
Scott Jennings, I mean, the pres -- like having a president of the United States of America. I understand where Donald Trump is on tariffs. We know that this is something that he really believes in. You can see that here, but I'm not sure I ever saw the day -- thought I would see the day when a president of the United States would say that in response to a question about whether or not there was going to be a recession, because just those words alone clearly had a huge effect.
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah. Look, I think, you know, markets go up and down. This is obviously an ugly day. It's never, I think, a smart idea to analyze the health of an economy or the long term possibilities of an economy based on one day in the stock market.
That having been said, I think what the president has said is true. He's trying to make major structural changes in the way our economy works. We've turned off the supply of free money coming out of COVID. That combined with these tariffs, which is supposed to bring more onshowing -- onshoring of American manufacturing jobs, it is a long term structural play. And obviously, there are going to be some bumps in the road.
The question is short term politically, what does that mean for him and what does that mean for the Republican Party? I think it will help if the Congress goes ahead and makes permanent his tax cuts and other things on energy, they're wanting to do.
But look, he's been very honest. Bumps in the road are coming. But the long term play here is overall net positive for the United States, and the working men and women of the country.
ANNIE LINSKEY, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL: Yeah. No, I think --
(LAUGHTER)
HUNT: Go ahead.
FRANKEN: It's funny, huh?
LINSKEY: Well, you're not used to hearing a president talk this way about the economy. And it's not only the president, but also some of his top advisers. Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent saying the American Dream is not about cheap things from China. We're reorienting the economy.
So this is a moment where the president is signaling that he is accepting turbulence in the economy for what he and his advisers believe will be a greater good. To your point, the signal was not being made during the campaign.
FRANKEN: Yeah.
HUNT: The signal was absolutely opposite.
FRANKEN: Yeah.
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: What's interesting is that supporters of the president regard his greatest strength to be he's a negotiator. He's a businessman, and he comes in hard and bluffs and -- and that brings people to the table. And that's an effective negotiator. It's right out of "The Art of the Deal".
The problem is that bluffing on this level makes markets tank. When -- when the president is threatening tariffs against the country's three largest trading partners, the market tanks the next day. And I understand the point.
It's a fair one that we can't assess the economy based on one day fluctuation.
[16:10:01]
But it was a direct response in many regards to comments that the president had made that caused and injected uncertainty across markets around the globe.
JENNINGS: I will say there is some evidence already that companies are responding to the tariff strategy. We've seen several announcements of people, different industries, auto chips that they want to bring manufacturing new plants into the United States.
FRANKEN: He wants to get rid of --
JENNINGS: They're expecting that more and more over time. And their belief is the more plants you build here, the more manufacturing jobs you build here, the more you strengthen the middle and working class of this country. And that's ultimately a good thing for the United States.
WILLIAMS: And I -- but, you know, I actually think the bigger thing, though, is the uncertainty. It's the back and forth more than anything else. It's we're going to implement tariffs.
But no, no, sorry. Tomorrow, we're going to say that it's not --
HUNT: That uncertainty does contribute a little bit to what -- what Scott is talking about though, right? Like I can't bet on building a plant in Canada or Mexico because who knows what might happen tomorrow.
You wanted to jump in?
FRANKEN: Well, he's reversed himself on chip or reversed our policy on chip, which is he's going to get rid of the incentives to invest here. And I think that is going to hurt our -- that sector of the business.
JENNINGS: Well -- well, the incentives, he's replacing the incentives. I mean, if I understand it correctly, the incentives would be -- it will be more expensive and worse for you to build overseas. So just go ahead and bring it here.
FRANKEN: That's because it's going to put on tariffs on --
JENNINGS: Yeah, that's his -- that's his theory.
FRANKEN: Yeah.
JENNINGS: That's the theory.
FRANKEN: Well, he has a lot of theories like that. We would be doing really well right now that the debt would go down. The prices would go down.
He says things that aren't true a lot. He lies a lot. He lies continually. He's said that, you know, we spent $350 billion, million dollars on -- on Ukraine and in the state, not the State of the Union, the --
HUNT: The joint --
FRANKEN: The joint session.
HUNT: Yeah.
FRANKEN: And that's not true. It's about half of that amount.
And this is a problem that he has all the time, as you know, I think, Scott.
JENNINGS: Let me ask you a question. You've been around a long time. Yeah. Would you judge a presidency based on one day or six weeks?
FRANKEN: Six weeks.
JENNINGS: You would judge a whole presidency --
FRANKEN: You gave a choice. You gave me a choice.
(LAUGHTER)
JENNINGS: Yeah, I'm asking.
Would you -- would you judge a presidency on one day in the markets or a six week period after having just taken over?
FRANKEN: I wouldn't -- I wouldn't, but if he's someone who said, as soon as I take office, what you're going to see is prices lower and -- and growth and the economy is going to be great, then you can hold them to the six weeks and say, no, no, no, no, no. That's the -- what's happened is the opposite of what you promised when you were on the campaign trail.
JENNINGS: So in six months from today, if it looks like we do have an upswing in manufacturing and it looks like the structural changes are benefiting people, will you come back and say, Lord have mercy. It looks like he was right?
FRANKEN: I will.
(LAUGHTER)
HUNT: We'll invite both of you for that exact conversation. FRANKEN: We'll -- we'll make sure we're both on.
JENNINGS: All right.
FRANKEN: We'll play a tape of this.
HUNT: Exactly. You know what?
FRANKEN: It will be a big segment.
HUNT: I am happy to be back here as your host.
But, Scott, I mean, let me push you on that a little bit too, because, look, I understand what you mean about, okay? He's making this long term play. But -- but he is literally saying something that is totally different from what he was saying on the trail. Like his words, right?
He was not on the trail. And I get this. No ones going to campaign on this, that on day one, it's going to get better. And then he gets elected and now he starts to say it's going to hurt for a while. That feels -- may feel to some voters like a bait and switch.
JENNINGS: Well, I do think the people who voted for him are willing to give him a little bit of leash on everything, whether it's the economy, whether it's on immigration, whether it's on whatever issue was their most important thing. I mean, he is just six weeks in after taking over from a four year term.
FRANKEN: Yeah, if they're a soybean farmer in Minnesota, they're not going to be very happy.
WILLIAMS: I even go further than that, Senator. I would even say not just a soybean farmer, someone with a retirement savings who is watching them evaporate as the markets go.
HUNT: I'm like, I'm like this with my app. Like my --
WILLIAMS: Well, don't look at it -- don't look at it.
HUNT: If you're close to retirement --
WILLIAMS: For some of the reasons.
LINSKEY: Thankfully, I'm far from that.
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: But is that -- is that a reasonable way? I mean, we elect presidents for four years, not for six weeks at a time. And the next presidential report card will come in the midterms, and after that, it will be the next presidential election. We tend not to judge presidencies based on six weeks.
What they're trying to do is monumental, and that's totally reorient the way we have done business in this country on the global economic scale. I assume there will be some turbulence for a few months. FRANKEN: I think we judge people on what they say and whether what
they say turns out to be true. And he promised that as soon as he got in, prices would go down and stock market would go up, and the absolute opposite. That's -- that's how I judge someone.
JENNINGS: Sure, I agree with you. And I think there's -- he's not done yet. I think he's not done yet because he still has to -- most of his economic plan is going to come in the form of this reconciliation bill with Congress. They have to make the tax cuts permanent. They have changes to make in our -- the way we -- we get energy here. I do think those things could have some of this in the short term.
WILLIAMS: My -- my central question remains and I raise it to you last time, right?
[16:15:03]
I'm sitting on this to everything good happens on Kasie Hunt show. But how long is the leash for talking about Joe Biden? And in six months --
JENNINGS: I have the exact answer, four years.
(LAUGHTER)
HUNT: Yeah. Guess what? Your answer would have been when Joe Biden came into office and he was saying, well, you know, Donald Trump screwed up.
WILLIAMS: But there comes a day when it becomes the pottery barn presidency and where the president owns.
LINSKEY: But this is --
HUNT: Wait, is that where you bought it, you broke it. Pottery barn? Okay.
(CROSSTALK)
FRANKEN: Oh, oh, yeah.
LINSKEY: There is something special -- there is something special about Donald Trump that has not been true. And this is an example. This is another Fifth Avenue moment for him. You know, as you know, he famously said he could shoot somebody on Fifth Avenue and not lose support.
And we're about to see -- we're about to see if he can sort of shoot a hole in the stock market and not lose support. And so far, I think, Scott, you're absolutely right that he does have leeway that a normal politician doesn't have.
But he is going to be -- in two years, it's not his name on the ballot in the midterms. It's the normal politicians who do have to face that kind of regular rule --
JENNINGS: Sure.
LINSKEY: The regular rules still apply to most Republicans, just not him.
WILLIAMS: I'm just saying that we started this segment with a litany of folks talking about the Biden economy. And that's fair to your point, Scott, when you're six weeks into the presidency.
At a certain point, the president will own, whether it's the retirement savings of the soybean farmers or anybody. And when does that point come? Is it two years from now, or is it just in a matter of months? And I just don't know the answer to that.
As we wrap up here, I just want to play just a reminder of one of the people that Donald Trump continually would hold up on the campaign trail as someone he did not want to be, because there are others who are invoking the period of time that this relates to. Just -- just watch some of what Trump had to say before.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I don't want to be Herbert Hoover because he was the president when the depression came, and that was not good.
I always said I'd hate like hell to be Herbert Hoover. I would. That was 1929, the Great Depression.
You know, I always said, I don't want to be Herbert Hoover. It's so terrible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: So, of course, we're not sitting here saying that we are headed into the Great Depression. But I will point out, Senator, this "Wall Street Journal" tear where the ICC is writing, quote, our deep concern is this could be the start of a downward spiral that puts us in 1930's trade war territory.
Right now, it's a coin flip, he said. It comes down to whether the U.S. administration is willing to rethink the utility of tariffs.
FRANKEN: Well, the depression to extent was caused by tariffs. And so we don't want to see a repeat of that. And you know, so far, he seems to be going -- he is totally going in that direction.
HUNT: Just the juxtaposition of "I don't want to be Herbert Hoover" with Maria Bartiromo saying, are we going to have a recession? He's like --
JENNINGS: I know it's one day, I think, before we all hop on the jump to conclusions mat, maybe we give it a few more -- give it a few more weeks here. It's one -- one day in the stock market, one day. And by the way, on the jobs report, there was this last week, there was evidence that manufacturing jobs had started to flow into the United States. So I'm just saying it was.
FRANKEN: Actually a lower count of jobs created, and then --
JENNINGS: But manufacturing jobs were up was the point.
HUNT: Yeah.
FRANKEN: Oh.
JENNINGS: And that's -- that's the -- that's the point he's been trying to make.
HUNT: Fair enough.
All right, everybody, stand by. Right now, I do want to know, what are you hearing? To all my sources and friends around town, you know who you are. Check your inbox.
Here's our question for you today. Will Congress avert a government shutdown? You have to tell -- you have to tell the bottom of the hour. Send us your thoughts, tips, exclusives. If it's the wrong question, if Scott Jennings is wrong again today, or maybe he's exactly right, I don't know.
Tell us. We'll let you in on the conversation coming up later on in the hour.
Coming up next here, the MAGA mediator, President Trump reportedly trying to quash growing tension between two of his closest allies.
Plus, Ukraine's president arriving in Saudi Arabia today for peace talks. What we know about where discussions stand to end Russia's war.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:23:29]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Phase one of my plan is complete. Ingratiate yourself to the president and take over the media. But was taking this job a bad idea? A lot of people seem to really hate me. My Tesla stock is crashing and my personal net worth just dropped by $100 billion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Mike Myers channeling doctor evil, the persona he played as Elon Musk over the weekend, a portrayal that may get some cheers, actually, from both sides of the aisle. The billionaire has earned no small amount of ire from both Democrats and Republicans in recent weeks. Musk's recently reported blowup with members of Trump's cabinet over his DOGE efforts, further exposing tensions inside Trump's coalition.
Chief among Musk's MAGA critics is the former Trump strategist Steve Bannon, who long before Musk clashed with the cabinet, had labeled Musk a, quote/unquote, parasitic illegal immigrant. That's what Bannon called Musk. According to "The New York Times" by Maggie Haberman wrote this, quote, in mid-February, the president told Mr. Bannon that he wanted him to lay off the attacks on Mr. Musk and for the two men to sit down privately, according to two people familiar with the comments.
But as Maggie notes, Musk at his core epitomizes the, quote/unquote, ultra wealthy interests at odds with Bannon's populist agenda.
That is something that Bannon expressed to CNN last month.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE BANNON, HOST, BANNON'S WAR ROOM: I'm very anti-oligarch. There's certain things about the oligarchs, not just Elon, but also the oligarchs that are, you know, the Bezos and Zuckerberg, particularly.
[16:25:10]
All these guys don't support us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: All right. My panel is back. We're also joined by former Democratic Congressman Max Rose, who is at the table.
Sir, thanks very much for being here as well.
And you know what? I want to start -- well, first let me ask review of Mike Myers on "SNL".
FRANKEN: That was great. That was a really solid South African impression, which I think because it was a Musk impression. I think that Mike really nailed him.
HUNT: It's a very serious review, but I like it.
Congressman, one of the things that you are working on as a veteran yourself is an effort to bring attention to the veterans who have lost their jobs in the DOGE firings with Elon Musk. I'm happy to hear a little bit about what you're trying to do, but I think -- I think one of the things that that I, you know, turn over in my head as I'm trying to consider all of this and where -- and how to focus on this veterans being affected by this is, it seems to me, if there's going to be real political blowback among Americans who otherwise may think the government is too big, there's waste, there's fraud, abuse.
They know, you know, a veteran that lives on their street who you know, is a staff member at their local V.A. hospital who's lost his job. You may lose the support of that person.
MAX ROSE (D), FORMER U.S. CONGRESSMAN: Well, without a doubt. Look, these weren't the DOGE firings. These were veteran firings.
We all know 50 percent of the federal workforce are veteran, 50 percent of those are disabled veterans. I advise an organization called VoteVets. We recently had nearly ten veterans who had been fired up on Capitol Hill.
And what was amazing about these, one of whom was a FEMA worker. She -- she didn't want to talk about herself, despite this being one of the lowest moments of her life, the lowest moment that any of us could actually imagine. All she cared about was the country and her fellow vets who had also been let go.
These were the people that Donald Trump said, thank you for your service. And then he turns around and says, you're fired. But we're going to take it one step further than that. Veterans are going to be part of the way we lead this country out of this.
So, VoteVets is also announcing today that were going to we're putting together a seven figure recruitment effort to make sure that there are veterans up and down the ballot fighting to take our country back, fighting to actually restore order and our values back into our system, because these are the types of candidates that we have seen was Elissa Slotkin, Ruben Gallego, Jared Golden that are not only winning in these Trump districts but are able to tackle hard issues head on.
So we couldn't be more excited to be leading this effort.
HUNT: I will -- I will just say, you know, I am someone who has always considered if you -- if you're serving our country in uniform, no matter what party you can bring, you can bring something beneficial to Congress where I have -- I have covered a long time and the proportion of people in that body who are veterans has dropped over the years, I think, in many cases to the detriment.
Scott, I want to ask you about this back and forth between Steve Bannon and Elon Musk, because Bannon really is and it seems to me that this "New York Times" reporting tells us that while, yes, Bannon kind of had a falling out with Donald Trump a ways back, he still has the ear of a significant chunk of the MAGA base and his back and forth and going after Elon Musk.
I mean, what does it say to you and who is the winner there? What does it say to you that Trump had to get involved in it?
JENNINGS: Well, a couple of things. Number one, who's in the White House right now and who isn't. I mean, Elon Musk is in the White House and constantly with Donald Trump and -- and executing on part of the Trump agenda. So you can take from that what you will.
Number two, I think this also speaks to the elasticity of the Trump coalition. I mean, Musk represents sort of the -- that tech libertarian minded, you know, much smaller government wing of the party. Bannon is this populist, nationalist wing of the party. I mean, these are these are not necessarily overlapping circles on any kind of political Venn diagram.
Yet they have all somehow found a home inside Donald Trump. It's his job to manage it politically. It sounds like that's what he's trying to do. But I'll just tell you, as a Republican who for his entire adult professional life has been hearing Republicans say, we're going to shrink the government, were going to cut the size of government.
Finally, someone's come along to do it. And there's a lot of appreciation for what Elon Musk is doing.
FRANKEN: Well, he -- yeah, I guess he's shrinking the government, but he's shrinking the government by firing people who then he has to reinstate if they're taking care of our nuclear weapons, if they're doing other kinds of absolutely necessary stuff. He's been firing people.
And then, oh, I got to rehire you. He's not been doing a very efficient job of this.
LINSKEY: Yeah. I mean, I do think that is the area where DOGE and Elon Musk can run into some extremely difficult problems. And for me, its, you know, the reporting on the FAA. "The Atlantic" had a really nice piece over the weekend going inside, you know, who is taking the buyouts in the FAA. And of course, this is the agency that's in charge of, you know, air safety in this country. And there have been a number of high profile accidents.
[16:30:02]
And I just feel that when you're kind of taking that agency in particular and shaking it so hard, there can be a real, a very real impact and a very dangerous one. And even if it's just people losing confidence -- I mean, I'm hearing all of that -- all the time in my reporting.
So I think there are agencies and you are seeing this with cabinet secretaries who are trying to take some of the power back into their agencies that Musk was able to seize by getting into the agencies before some of these cabinet secretaries were even in place.
FRANKEN: Also, how long is Musk going to be there? I mean, how long was Bannon in there in his first round?
HUNT: Well, Bannon wasn't the richest man in the world. So he had a little bit.
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: Musk won't be for longer at the pace that his stocks are going.
HUNT: Yeah.
FRANKEN: Well, he's got a ways to go.
HUNT: I think he does have a ways to go.
All right. Everybody, stand by for me. Senator Franken, I'm so grateful to have you on the show today. Thank you very much for being here. I hope you'll come back.
Coming up next here, back to our top story -- the economy, growing fears of a recession. Former Treasury Secretary Larry Summers is going to be live here in THE ARENA, up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:35:29]
HUNT: All right. Welcome back to THE ARENA.
As we have been talking about all day long, the economy is facing a lot of chaos. You may be having a hard time keeping track. We've had markets going wild. The Dow plunging again today, erasing all the gains it made since Election Day.
There are tariffs, exemptions to the tariffs, walk backs of the exemptions of the tariffs. And then looming over all of it are now fears of a recession.
And joining us now to help explain what is happening, former Treasury Secretary Larry Summers.
Mr. Secretary, thank you so much for being with us.
LARRY SUMMERS, FORMER TREASURY SECRETARY: (AUDIO GAP) with you, Kasie.
HUNT: Wonderful to have you.
Let me just start with the very basic question that is on everybody's minds today. Given everything that we are seeing with the economy, do you think we're headed for a recession?
SUMMERS: I think we're -- we're on the real possibility of it. I would have said a couple of months ago that a recession was really unlikely this year. Now, it's probably not 50/50, but it's getting close to 50/50. And there's one central reason, which is that we've had economic policies that have been completely counterproductive.
All of this emphasis on tariffs and all of the ambiguity and uncertainty created about tariffs has, ironically, both chilled demand, made it businesses not invest, made consumers think they should hold off before making big spending commitments. And usually when you do something like that, prices go down.
But this time, when people are worried they're not going to be able to get supplies in the future or not be able to get supplies without paying big tariffs, prices actually go up. Inputs to areas like cars and houses have been tariffed, pushing up their price.
So we're getting the worst of both worlds. More concerns about inflation and more concerns about economic downturn and more uncertainty about the future, which just slows everything down. This is pretty much a self-inflicted wound.
HUNT: And was it self-inflicted essentially solely by President Trump? Or is there something to the idea that the policies Joe Biden, President Biden had put in place could contribute to everything you just described? SUMMERS: Look, I was pretty critical of President Biden's policies on
a number of dimensions. I think that the inflation could, in significant part, have been avoided. But -- but on January 1st, no one thought that a recession was a substantial likelihood. And today, market prices and consensus opinions of economists suggest a very real risk of recession.
So I think that's your answer, that it lies pretty much in the policy choices that have been made. And it's been surprising to me, Kasie, you know, the suggestion has been from President Trump and Secretary Bessent that this is some kind of temporary development. That's part of adjusting things to get them back on track.
Kind of reminds you the idea of transitory inflation. That didn't work out very well as a policy idea. And I don't think this notion that these are just temporary concerns is going to work out very well.
People depend upon predictability, predictability of policy, predictability of what the central bank is going to do, predictability about the enforcement of law, predictability about their supply chains.
And we've given up all of that with surprise after surprise after surprise. And when you give up predictability in one area, it's like the 13th chime of a clock. It causes people to wonder about what's going on in every area.
So I think we've got real cascading uncertainty that makes me very nervous about the real economy and the markets.
[16:40:06]
I think we've got a real possibility of a vicious cycle where weakening economy leads to weaker markets and then weaker markets lead to a weakening economy. So I'm pretty worried about the whole situation. And again, this is not something that just happened. This is the consequence of policy choices that, to my knowledge, no economist anywhere was recommending in terms of on again, off again tariff threats on a major scale.
HUNT: Sir, from what you just said there, I am left wondering, we did hear from the president. First of all, I'm curious him simply not really answering the question about a recession, what impact that has. But he also repeatedly says, we'll need to have some short term pain for long term gain.
Are you saying you don't think any pain we may feel from this is going to be short term?
SUMMERS: I'm saying that that was the same idea as transitory inflation. That idea was we needed to stimulate the economy. Maybe we'd have some inflation for a little while, but it would all be short term.
And that idea didn't work out very well for the American public. And I don't think this kind of short term pain is going to work out very well either. I actually think that the consequences here are probably going to escalate because steadily, we're creating more and more uncertainty.
Look at what's happened to Wall Streets fear gauge, the VIX. It was in the 16 range just a couple of weeks ago. And now it's up in the high 20s, an increase of about 75 percent in that gauge. When one person doesn't spend, that means less jobs for other people. And then they don't spend.
So my guess is that we're only at the beginning of this disturbance. And it's going to increase. And if President Trump does what he says he's going to do in terms of lots more tariffs then I think its going to increase even further.
So I actually think this is a growing challenge for the economy from the Trump administration policy, not a shrinking challenge.
HUNT: All right. Former Treasury Secretary Larry Summers -- sir, so grateful to have you on the show today. Really appreciate your expertise. And if what you are saying is what we're going to be dealing with, I do hope that you will continue to join us on a regular basis, because we're going to need you.
SUMMERS: Be happy to be with you. Good luck to you --
HUNT: Thank you so much.
SUMMERS: -- and your viewers in this challenging time.
HUNT: Thank you. I appreciate that maybe the most worrying thing you've said this entire interview.
All right. Up next here, day one of renewed talks on ending Russia's war in Ukraine.
Plus, something totally different, the record payday for one top pro athlete.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:47:51]
HUNT: All right. Welcome back to THE ARENA.
Secretary of State Marco Rubio meeting with Ukrainian and Russian officials in Saudi Arabia this week. Rubio says the U.S. wants to know what concessions Ukraine might be willing to make. But on the battlefield, Ukraine has been slowly losing its only territorial bargaining chip as Russian soldiers advance on Kursk.
When asked if Putin was in fact taking advantage of the pause, President Trump had this to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I think he's hitting 'em harder than -- than he's been hitting 'em. And I think probably anybody in that position would be doing that right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Talking about Vladimir Putin right there.
All right. My panel is back here.
This question, Scott Jennings, about Ukraine is, again, it is part of the overall kind of global picture. We've been talking a lot about the president and the way he is scrambling, the way we think about economic certainty in this country. And in many ways, he's also been scrambling the way that many Americans think about Americas role in the world.
Certainly, compared to Ronald Reagan to other Republican presidents past. Were you surprised -- are you surprised at how he talks about Vladimir Putin in moments like that, or is that par for the course now?
JENNINGS: Well, look, I'm -- I am not surprised that he's pursuing peace between these two countries he ran on. It was another thing that he promised he would try to get done right away. And I think he is living in a reality where it is highly unlikely that the United States Congress appropriates any more money for Ukraine, knowing that we have to get peace now.
I mean, if you want Ukraine, which I do, and I support Ukraine, and they're the good guys here, and the Russians are the bad guys. But if you want them to remain sovereign and prosperous, we have to get to a peace agreement. His administration officials are in the Middle East right now at the peace table, hopefully. And that's where I hope he winds up.
So I guess I've just been willing to give the president some latitude here. He wasn't in office when this war started. Remember, he's in his administration. He gave the Ukrainians javelins. He knows the value of having weapons systems, but we have to have peace.
This won't linger forever because we can't support it forever politically. So something has to happen in short term.
[16:50:02]
HUNT: Congressman, here was Keith Kellogg, who, of course, an advisor to President Trump, but not one who seems to be quite in the inner circle the way others talking about Trump's approach to what he calls transactional diplomacy.
Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KETIH KELLOGG, SPECIAL PRESIDENTIAL ENVOY FOR RUSSIA AND UKRAINE: President Trump approaches diplomacy and engagements in a very transactional manner, with economics, as the foundation and driving force behind international affairs in President Trump's Americas first, quote, transactional diplomacy, end quote, model. The transactional diplomacy approach is why, in his discussions with foreign leaders is the first question them is often to ask, as I found the very first time we were in the cabinet room when a foreign official came in, the comment was, quote, what is the trade imbalance between our two nations?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: What impact does that have, in your view, on the Russia-Ukraine conflict?
ROSE: I think the impact here is that transactional is okay, right? I mean, I think the president of the United States should be there to serve the people of the United States. No one should argue that, particularly Democrats. But the project that we've been undertaking now for decades is a project in and around supporting our allies so as to avoid large scale war.
So, yes, economics needs to be a North Star, but also not sending our young men and women who are in uniform into harms way, the greatest sacrifice of blood and treasure humanly imaginable for this country.
That also has to be our North Star, the number one priority. And that's, I think, my principal concern with the way Donald Trump has been acting, because it sends a message to our allies across the world that America's partnership and American support isn't actually something to be relied on.
And that puts us all at a national security, national security danger.
HUNT: So, Annie Linskey, it wouldn't be, you know, if Elon Musk weren't involved, it wouldn't be Monday. I don't know, we are hearing from -- he's doing a very rare interview right now. Talking a little bit about it's actually his social network X, formerly known as Twitter, but he had a little bit of information about, I don't know if you all have been having trouble reading your tweets today, but I have.
I -- there's been some outages. He tried to explain them. Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELON MUSK, TECH BILLIONAIRE: We're not sure exactly what happened, but there was a massive cyber attack to try to bring down the X system, with IP addresses originating in the Ukraine area.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Annie?
LINSKEY: Well, I mean, look, I haven't done a deep dive into what was interrupting my X service, which was also like yours interrupted.
Elon Musk earlier today was tweeting that you know, protests around Tesla were driving down the cost. They're driving down the stock price there. And he was also having issues with SpaceX. So he's, you know, very clearly trying to bundle some of the -- the
business issues he's having and make them into a political issue.
(CROSSTALK)
HUNT: We have to leave it there. Unfortunately, I don't want to miss out here because earlier on, we asked our sources and friends around town about this story, which, because there's been so much else today, we haven't even talked about whether Congress is going to avert the government shutdown that's looming at the end of the week.
So here's what some of you had to say.
One longtime Democratic fundraiser wrote in this, Democrats should not be helping the GOP implement their insane agenda. We need to muck up everything and make the GOP own this all.
On the flip side, a Republican communications strategist -- strategist offers this. From the GOP point of view, filibustering the CR, that's the funding bill, would be an early Christmas gift. If I were them, I would pass the CR, and focus the fight on budget reconciliation.
Elliot, very briefly, Democrats have a choice to make here.
WILLIAMS: Yeah. And who knows how it's going to work out. You know, ultimately, it's a strategic question. Maybe they get benefited. Maybe they get rewarded for it. Maybe they don't. I think we just have to wait and see what happens.
JENNINGS: Shut down Dems, get ready for it.
HUNT: There you go. Preview from Mr. Jennings over there.
ROSE: It's government shutdown Dems --
HUNT: It doesn't rhyme.
JENNINGS: They love government.
HUNT: It does not rhyme. It does not rhyme. You have to work on that.
All right. Coming up next here, the latest record for one 28-year-old quarterback.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:59:00]
HUNT: All right. Welcome back. We're going to wrap up with this story.
Josh Allen really putting the valuable in most valuable player to the tune of a cool $330 million. I'm sorry. What? The Buffalo Bills quite, seem quite a lot of bills, would want to lock in their superstar quarterback for at least 2030. It is a record setting deal, $250 million of these dollars are guaranteed, making it the largest amount given to an NFL player ever. It's basically $140,000 per day. The 28 year old QB -- yeah, he had a phenomenal season last year. He
was the first player to record at least 25 touchdown passes, ten touchdown runs, all with fewer than ten interceptions in a season. I have to say he was really fun to watch him this past season.
We also have someone who probably wishes he would, you know, if he could have gone into football.
Elliot Williams, you -- I think we have a picture from your dad of you and your peewee football uniform.
There you are.
WILLIAMS: Got the glasses, the hair, you know.
HUNT: Multimillion dollar QB. Was it?
WILLIAMS: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I feel like in sixth grade, I had a choice between debate club and football, and I made the wrong choice.
HUNT: Or the right one. You're here. But, yes, the money is not. The money is not as good.
WILLIAMS: That was good.
HUNT: All right. We are lucky enough to be able to do this live. Jake Tapper standing by for "THE LEAD".
So, wait, Jake, did you play peewee football?
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: I did not, but I will observe that both Elliot and Josh have won the same number of Super Bowls.
HUNT: Oh, burn. I think we have a picture of you playing, though.
TAPPER: Do you have a picture? That's me.
HUNT: Oh!
TAPPER: That's little. That's little Jacob Tapper.
HUNT: I love it. That is a great way to wrap up this program.
Of course, Jake's "THE LEAD" starts right now. Jake, take it off.
