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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt

Trump Uses Justice Department Speech To Attack Biden-Era Officials; Any Minute: Key Senate Vote On Avoiding Government Shutdown. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired March 14, 2025 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And I want to thank Susie. You have done a great job. Susie Wiles.

[16:00:01]

Great job, Susie.

(APPLAUSE)

TRUMP: A big magazine just named her the most powerful woman in the world. And that's okay with me. She is the most powerful woman. If you think about it, John, right? The most powerful woman in the world.

But she's great. And we had a great most powerful woman if you think about it. John. Right. The most powerful woman in the world. But she's great. And we had a great 90 days. It was a perfect 90 days. And it was a great result. But we want to put that result to good use by doing.

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: I'm Kasie Hunt.

Welcome to THE ARENA on this Friday.

We have been following breaking news. President Trump making a rare visit to the Department of Justice there. If you've heard, he's been attacking his political foes in a speech that's been billed as focusing on law and order. We're going to break it all down with our reporters.

And we're also standing by for a high stakes vote in the Senate. They are working on whether to advance the House Republican spending bill. The outcome expected to determine if the federal government is going to shut down at midnight tonight.

We have our team of correspondents and analysts covering all of these high stakes moments for us. We're going to start with the Department of Justice speech.

Former federal prosecutor, CNN anchor, chief legal analyst Laura Coates is here with us.

But I do want to start with CNN's Paula Reid. She is live for us at the Justice Department.

Paula, tell us a little bit about what we've heard so far from President Trump and what we expect to continue to hear from him.

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kasie, as you can see behind me, President Trump is still addressing a packed house here at the Justice Department, his first time giving a speech here. But it's especially significant because for much of the past decade, he has been under federal criminal investigation and has made no secret of the anger and bitterness that he harbors towards this investigation -- this institution.

Now, the White House said that this speech would be about restoring law and order in America. Now, so far, not surprisingly, he has -- he has been reading the teleprompter, but also sort of veering off, expressing some of his grievances about the prosecutors who have investigated and charged him about Hunter Biden, about James Comey.

But for the most part, this has not really been the kind of speech that maybe we expected, because we know when he is upset about something, he tends to go off speech, he goes off script. You never know what he will say. And as I said, he harbors a lot of anger and resentment towards this institution.

Right now, he actually seems pretty subdued. He has mostly been sticking to the teleprompter. His longer tangents have been about, for example, Bobby Knight, he talked about him for quite some time, but he's not done talking.

You probably can't see this from where you are, but on the stage there are two signs that talk about fighting fentanyl. There's also some evidence, some mock evidence on the stage, some props that are supposed to represent fentanyl.

So far, he has not talked about fentanyl at all during the speech, but its continuing now. So its possible he will get to this. But again, this is a historic moment. This is his first time addressing the Department of Justice. It's a very friendly audience packed with many of his allies, law enforcement officials, folks he has appointed at DOJ, U.S. attorneys.

There's been a smattering of applause. But for the most part, this has been a relatively subdued event. We weren't sure what to expect.

It is uncommon for a sitting president to address the Justice Department, but not unheard of. I was here a decade ago when President Obama gave a speech in this hall.

But, Kasie, the president continues his remarks, and we'll keep you updated if there are any other headlines.

HUNT: All right. Paula Reid, of course, in the room for us continuing to listen to that speech.

Laura Coates, let me bring you in here just in terms of kind of how Paula was wrapping up there, talking about how unusual it is to have this happen, and especially considering, of course, the president's own history with the Department of Justice, his embrace of his own mug shot, and the role that his criticism of the investigations into him played in the campaign that ultimately landed him in the White House.

LAURA COATES, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Let's not mistake a subdued tone for someone who is not wielding brass knuckles when he is punching at career members of the Department of Justice. Kasie, he has gone on to talk about, at one point restoring the scales of justice, but then waiting for applause as he talked about revoking the clearances of the likes of Jack Smith or Alvin Bragg, Letitia James, the latter of which are not under his Department of Justice. He also referenced a Biden crime family, juxtaposed the what he believed was the persecution of his family with the persecution of people who he said were praying or giving hymns and talking about his pride for firing James Comey and the pardons of January 6th.

But there's one line in particular where he said it was a heinous betrayal of what was going on, and that people had been using the law to terrorize the innocent and reward the wicked. Why this is so poignant is, of course, people who are part of the department of justice, Kasie, include political appointees.

[16:05:02]

He named a number of them, Kash Patel, Pam Bondi, to be exact, but there are career officials and career prosecutors who serve regardless of who is the president of the United States. And I do wonder to what extent they were completely insulted and demoralized by his statements about the Department of Justice focusing solely on him, as opposed to the larger scope of work.

Now, Pam is actually -- Paula is absolutely right, talking about the idea of all the things the DOJ could be referencing and talked about, fentanyl, human trafficking, public integrity, environmental related crimes, a whole host of things. But he is fixated a great deal on what he believes to have been a persecution. And I wonder how it's going over in a room full of people or more broadly, the Department of Justice, who believed in the integrity of the work that they were doing. And now were hearing their president of the United States insult their predecessor and, of course, their former attorney general.

HUNT: Well, of course, there are some questions about how many current, you know, employees, career employees from the Department of Justice are actually in the room as opposed to a political supporters.

Laura, I also did want to ask how this may be received in the context of -- obviously, we've talked a lot about the criticism that Donald Trump has of Justice Department's past, but now he has this one and he is using it in ways that were still learning what they are.

But one in particular is what's going on with Eric Adams, the mayor of New York, who, of course, was facing indictment and suddenly is not. And there were a series of officials who resigned because they didn't want to do what they were being asked to do.

How does this play into that? COATES: Well, remember, if we all recall when Eric -- when Merrick

Garland was sworn in, he talked about without fear or favor or political favor. Others who've been sworn in talk about this, Pam Bondi, for example, when her confirmation hearings happened, talked about this. And so people are often looking at this juxtaposition between the idea of having a blind lady justice and then the idea of a alleged quid pro quo, which, of course, Eric Adams has denied in court through counsel and beyond. And the prosecutors involved have said that is not the deal.

However, in the writings of the court, remember it was Emil Bove who had to go from person to person to figure out who could sign off on this perception, even leading to the SDNY, U.S. attorney stepping down because she feared that perception of how it would impact negatively all the line prosecutors in the office and their credibility.

So we are seeing a bit of a split screen about what we have been covering and following in his comment about releasing and firing bureaucrats who were suppressing the First Amendment or right to speech and beyond with what you've referenced and the ideas of public integrity.

And so this is going over, I think, in some respects, like a ton of bricks, particularly with the FBI and others who have a huge part in trying to investigate crimes.

Remember, it was the president who said earlier today that he just learned through his own persecution, as he called it, that the FBI and the DOJ need to be close together because they work together, raising, I'm sure, a number of eyebrows, if not in that room, but more universally around the law enforcement and intelligence community.

And so I think he has to balance. This is somebody who's the head of the executive branch, whose job it is to enforce the law, and he has to not alienate for morale reasons and efficiency reasons, and frankly, justice reasons, those who will carry out the objectives he seeks.

HUNT: All right. Laura Coates, Paula Reid, for us, thank you both very much for that.

And our panel is here. Alyssa Farah Griffin, former Trump White House communications director; Chuck Todd, host of "The Chuck Toddcast"; Kate Bedingfield, former Biden White House communications director; and the former Republican House Speaker Patrick McHenry, who I still love introducing that way, sir.

Thank you all for being here.

Chuck, let me start with you. Kind of big picture in terms of what we are seeing from a President Trump today. And I want to kind of remind everyone of what we heard from Donald Trump on the campaign trail about retribution in particular. This was something he kept coming back to.

Let's watch. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I am your warrior. I am your justice. And for those who have been wronged and betrayed, I am your retribution.

Revenge does take time, I will say that.

DR. PHIL MCGRAW, HOST: It does.

TRUMP: And sometimes revenge can be justified.

Retribution is going to be through success.

We pledge to you that we will root out the communists, Marxists, fascists and the radical left thugs that live like vermin within the confines of our country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: So, of course, he had the success that he says was his retribution. But then when you think about that and you listen to him attack all of these officials, what do you think it says?

CHUCK TODD, HOST, "THE CHUCK TODDCAST": Well, look, I've long said that one of the biggest problems in American politics is nobody abides by the mantra of two wrongs don't make a right, right? So no matter, you know, so --

HUNT: Despite the number of times my mother told me that.

TODD: Exactly.

HUNT: Yeah.

TODD: So let's accept the premise that he and his supporters believe that the Biden Justice Department was unfair and was biased.

[16:10:04]

The answer isn't to then put together a biased Justice Department to essentially do the projection. And this has been my great fear that we're going to head down this road. So half the country has been convinced that the Biden Justice Department was unfair. And now, the way he's going about this, doing what he did at the Justice Department today, the other half of the country is going to believe that the Trump Justice Department is not doing anything on the up and up.

And so all you've done is actually increase the amount of people in this country who now question the integrity of the law enforcement community simply by what we've done. It is -- you know, it's funny, if aliens came down and they saw how we -- how we staffed our legal side of things and then how we staffed our economic side, it's funny to me, the attorney general should be treated like the chairman of the Federal Reserve. Like, I actually think we need to rethink how we -- we've got to depoliticize the Justice Department. In some ways, the argument that some are making on the right is

actually get closer. He's saying, I'm going to get more. We're going to -- we're going to politicize justice even more, which only undermines the rule of law. I really think we have to think hard about actually how we come up with a different way. We care more about fairness in our economic policy, apparently, than we do in our legal.

HUNT: You agree with that?

PATRICK MCHENRY (R), FORMER FINANCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: So the norm breaking here, this was not a norm breaking thing. When President Obama went to thank his attorney general when he was leaving office, this was not. This exacerbated thing of press coverage saying, oh, this is such a terrible thing that Barack Obama is thanking his attorney general for his good work.

So -- on this, let's look at the content of it, right. Look at the content of the speech, see what he's saying, and actually understand that maybe, in fact, he is baiting the press to do the very thing that's happening right now.

The second thing I would say is that Bobby Kennedy and his brother operated the justice department in a very different way, certainly not to this standard. So this modern thought that the attorney general, you can't -- you have to be a complete arms length from as president is a modern phenomenon, not in keeping with neither the Constitution nor the previous 200 years.

TODD: We only -- we only started a department of, you know, we only it was Grant that really took the -- created sort of the Justice Department that we have today not to get into a history lesson a little bit, but the point -- no, the point being is that is that, just because it is doesn't mean it has to continue, you know?

And so I take your point. But we also didn't live in a polarized climate for the last 50 years. We are in this one. And I just think we shouldn't be afraid to rethink how we do things in order, because ultimately, what do we want a rule of law that we trust? If somebody knocks on my door from the FBI, I don't know if they're being honest or not right now. That's not a good thing.

KATE BEDINGFIELD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Two things quickly. One, I mean President Obama didn't go to the Justice Department and say the Bush Justice Department was so corrupt and came after me. So there's a substantive difference between what President Obama, for example, did on the way out and what Trump is doing here today, which goes to, I think, Chucks point.

You know, but I would also I hear you say, you know, we've got to rethink how the attorney general is perceived politically. I you know, I would argue a lot of what Biden tried to do was to be very hands off was to say, you know, he said repeatedly, the Justice Department is independent, the attorney general is independent. The politics of the moment wound up engulfing that in many ways. And that's where we are as a country. And that's, to me, what is -- HUNT: Speaking of the politics of the moment, we saw Donald Trump use

what the investigations very much to his advantage. This is what he would say repeatedly about his mug shot. Obviously, a state investigation, not one from the DOJ, but nonetheless.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I'm being indicted for you. Did you like my mug shot? Did you like the mug shot? Lovely.

I don't think I've ever made so much money in my life. That mug shot.

It's the number one selling mug shot in history. It beat Elvis and it beat Frank Sinatra.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: And, Alyssa, you should ask Ron DeSantis what he thinks that mug shot did to his political prospects.

ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Correct, correct. And it now hangs outside the Oval Office.

I actually see something very different from this. I see a Donald Trump who misses the campaign trail in a White House, who wants to have him visible every day talking about accomplishments. And so we talked about how he's got the fake fentanyl up there and these DEA agents.

I think the goal in this, and ill be curious to hear if we actually get there in his remarks, is to highlight -- how he's being tough on cracking down on illegal fentanyl in actual things that voters care about.

HUNT: He has successes at the border to tout.

GRIFFIN: Yes, but as we know with him, he tends to go back to the grievances and the greatest hits, which is what we've largely heard so far.

But if he can bring this full circle and he can get his pull quote, and what people are going to see if I've cracked down on this, the border is effectively closed. You know, crossings are down to the lowest point in 15 years. That's a win for him.

He cares about being visible. And I think he was bored sitting at the White House. He wants to be seen as doing things and that's what he's doing.

[16:15:00]

TODD: Isn't this a base thing? Its both own the libs, fire up the base. Normal people aren't paying attention.

HUNT: All right. Everybody, stand by for me.

Right now, I want to know what are you hearing. To all my sources and friends, you know who you are. Check your inbox.

Here's our question for you today. How much political trouble is Senator Chuck Schumer in, the majority leader, having a bit of a rough go? You have to the bottom of the hour. Send us thoughts, tips, exclusives, minority leader, excuse me.

And if this is the wrong question, do tell us what the right one is. Viewers will let you in on the conversation coming up later on this hour.

And on that note, we are following breaking news on Capitol Hill. Any minute the Senate is set to begin a key vote on the bill that would avert a government shutdown. Right now, we really don't know how it's going to end.

I'm going to talk live with Senator Chris as this drama plays out in the Democratic Party.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:20:17]

HUNT: All right. Welcome back.

We're following breaking news on Capitol Hill, where a critical procedural vote in the Senate is going to begin shortly on the Republican -- House Republican spending bill. It's designed to avert a government shutdown at midnight tonight.

Republicans need eight Democrats to vote yes and advance the bill. That has been putting a huge strain, shall we say, on the opposition party throughout the day, the deep divisions among Democrats spilled out into public view, desperate to take on Donald Trump. They seem to be completely unable to figure out how to do it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. JOHN FETTERMAN (D-PA): They can yell and fundraise off of that. But I'll be the only Democrat that's going to tell America the truth of what shutting the government down. And that would be a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) disaster.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: That was one side of the argument. That's swing state Pennsylvania Senator John Fetterman. He has said that he'll vote yes to keep the government open. And he was hitting back at those in his own party who think that voting for this short term House Republican bill amounts to rolling over for Donald Trump.

So what's the flip side?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): It is almost unthinkable why Senate Democrats would vote to -- to hand the few pieces of leverage that we have away for free when we've been sent here to protect Social Security, protect Medicaid, and protect Medicare.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Progressive icon Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, voicing the anger from the dozens of House Democrats who voted no, sparking rumors that she might launch a primary against Majority Leader Chuck Schumer, who on Wednesday was for fighting and potentially having a shutdown, and by Thursday had flipped sides.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): To have the conflict on the on the best grounds. We have summed up in a sentence that they're making the middle class pay for tax cuts for billionaires, it's much, much better not to be in the middle of a shutdown, which does divert people from the number one issue we have against these bastards -- sorry, these people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Whoo!

Here was Hakeem Jeffries, who is the leader of the House Democrats, who was asked a question today about the Senate minority leader, Chuck Schumer, this afternoon. His non-answer is telling.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Have you lost confidence in him? The fact that you guys see this so differently?

REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): Next question.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Next question.

Let's go straight to Capitol Hill where we find CNN's Lauren Fox.

Lauren, so Republicans would need eight Democrats to vote with them. The whip count has you guys have been keeping close track of it all day today. Schumer has said at -- at times that there are the votes there among Senate Democrats to keep the government open. But honestly, the pressure has been building all day long. Where does it stand right now?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, I actually spoke with the Republican whip, John Barrasso, a little bit about that pressure that Democrats were facing. They had been trying to get this time agreement all afternoon to try to speed this process up. And on the one hand, Barrasso said he wasn't worried. And on the other hand, he said that he wasn't going to count anything out until everyone had cast their votes.

I do have some breaking news from our team that's watching the Senate floor really closely. They do now have a time agreement to go ahead and start this process of trying to keep the government open. We do expect that they will have that key procedural vote that will require the eight Democrats. After that, they will have a series of amendment votes, and then they can move on to final passage of this bill.

So possible that they could be done with this well ahead of that deadline, or at least in congressional speech, a couple hours ahead, which is well ahead of the deadline. But obviously, this has been a really difficult couple of days for Democrats, as Senate Democrats are really struggling to stay united on this.

Obviously, there's so many of them that are going to be voting against advancing this bill, and there's a lot of disappointment in the fact that they are finding themselves in this moment after knowing for several months that this was going to be their first big push for leverage, a big key point that Schumer has made over and over again, though, Kasie, is that there is no off ramp if Democrats shut down the government, they have to rely on a Republican controlled White House, a Republican controlled Senate, a Republican controlled house, to get them out of this. And his argument has been, what kind of leverage do they really have in that scenario?

So despite the fact that a lot of progressives are very frustrated, Schumer's argument is that Senate Democrats are the ones who would ultimately be blamed. And he's really worried about the fact that they may not be able to get out of a shutdown or get anything for it.

[16:25:05]

HUNT: Yeah, for sure. All right, Lauren, thank you very much for that reporting. And you're going to stick close throughout the hour.

Our panel is back.

Congressman McHenry, can you take us kind of inside the -- what is playing out? I realize you're no longer in the halls right now, but you really understand kind of what is going on here. Why that moment with Hakeem Jeffries was so significant and what Democrats actually can and can't do in this moment.

MCHENRY: Well, you think about Speaker Pelosi. Would she have done that, right?

No. The two party leaders on Capitol Hill have to stick together if they want to get anything done. And there are always disagreements, but you never air it like that, and especially not if you're from the same state. So that's an extraordinary --

TODD: Same borough.

MCHENRY: I mean, yes, like basically you don't -- you don't really smack talk your own constituent, which is effectively what you saw there.

So it also shows the pressure points on Hakeem Jeffries from his base. He's experiencing what Republicans have long had with a progressive base that doesn't see the value in his leadership. So he's trying to prove himself there.

And then a Senate majority leader who understands the long game here. This is the smartest move I've seen out of Chuck Schumer in a long, long time. And the smart move is to not take the bait and be in a worse position at a future date, take the heat now.

Now, I wish you had been smarter about that than -- than what he said all week was to say, this is a terrible continuing resolution that Joe Biden signed the same numbers and the same spending levels, but now it's unacceptable? I mean, it's kind of an insane sort of weird argument to make in trying to search for a fight with a president who will clearly rue like -- really is just stewing for this, like, bring it. This is such a winner for the president.

GRIFFIN: Yeah, Donald Trump would love to have a shutdown fight. Democrats have struggled to get their message since Donald Trump's come into office. The idea that they would suddenly get their footing and be able to articulate how, in fact, they were winning the shutdown and fighting for the American people up against the bully pulpit of Donald Trump. It just won't happen.

And beyond that, OMB actually has significant jurisdiction over deciding what to keep open and what to shut down. The Trump administration would make Democrats feel the pain. They would make sure that it affects Democratic constituents more than Republicans, so that they come to the table and most likely, the White House will get concessions out of a shutdown.

BEDINGFIELD: Yeah. I think Schumer's strategic move here was right. I think the error was the tactical one. Once it was clear house Republicans had the votes, they were hoping that they wouldn't. They did. They managed to marshal it through. And then he spent time saying there might not be the votes.

He kind of raised expectations that he was going to be able to, you know, to stand firm, but ultimately, I agree with the congressman. I agree with Alyssa. I think this is -- this is the right decision in terms of in terms of playing the long game, thinking about how Democrats need to position themselves to meaningfully combat the Trump administration moving forward.

This would not be the winning fight. And I certainly understand the progressive anger. I certainly understand House Democrats who feel like they walked out on a plank and took a tough vote that you can you can certainly understand that back and forth.

But I do think for the long term strength for the -- for the strengthen the Democrats hand moving forward here, I do think this is the right call. Also, think about the 2026 map and think about in the Senate who is going to be up, who's going to have to be defending states. And that's going to be a tough I think that's -- that's -- it's smart to think about it, that.

MCHENRY: To me as a House Republican, those that instigate the shutdown eat it on the back end. So don't do it. Don't do it. Not a smart play. When Schumer and Pelosi toyed with this under Trump the first time, it was a Friday to Monday shutdown. They understood a little too late, but they understood.

HUNT: Yeah. Chuck Todd, one of the things that Congressman McHenry said about how, you know, this is a dynamic Republicans have been dealing with for a long time. "The New York Times" wrote it this way under the headline: Young Democrats anger boils over as Schumer retreats.

Younger Democrats are chafing at an increasingly complaining about what they see as the feebleness of the old guards efforts to push back against President Trump. And they are second guessing how the party's leaders, like Mr. Schumer, who brandishes his flip phone as a point of pride, are communicating their message in the TikTok era as Republicans dominate the digital town square.

How does this potentially this emerging dynamic? It's almost as though perhaps were seeing a formation of a Tea Party on the left.

TODD: I think it's actually something the Democratic Party needs.

HUNT: I should note very briefly, Chuck, that this vote has actually started. This cloture vote is now open on the Senate floor.

Sorry. Continue.

TODD: They need a fight. They need to actually have an internal fight. It's benefited the Republicans, I would argue. You know, there's always been this -- the old conventional wisdom was a divided party is the one that gets hurt. But in some times it actually you show life this. This, you know, going ahead and having this debate, having this fight sort of where should the party be.

Now, both things can be true in what the times said in that I think Schumer tactically is looking at the -- and realized he had no -- there was no end game here.

[16:30:05]

If you shut down the government, how are you going to reopen it? And it was only going to put them in a worse position.

But I did wonder why Schumer still is still there. Like I was surprised after that meaning -- and I say this not -- this has nothing to do. It's -- it's sort of like after you have a loss like the Democrats had, it's sort of like its time to sort of, hey, bring in a new set of leaders all over the map, you know, I am surprised that the Senate Democrats aren't led by a Michael Bennet or an Amy Klobuchar right now, in that it is probably time for that generational handover. It happened on the Republican side right from McConnell to Thune.

So like both things could be true here, although I do believe Schumer took one for his team in a way that was probably really necessary for the party in this moment.

HUNT: Well, maybe it lets him as someone who perhaps understands that --

TODD: I'd be shocked if he's running again.

HUNT: -- that I may not be here forever.

BEDINGFIELD: I broadly agree with this, and I think, you know, Schumer obviously remains in place. But you do see Democrats. You see Jeanne Shaheen stepping down. You see Tina Smith stepping down.

I do think you see a recognition across the leadership of the Democratic Party that it's time for some fresh blood.

HUNT: All right. We're going to keep watching this critical vote in the Senate. We're going to talk shortly with Senator Chris Coons. He'll be live in THE ARENA.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:35:32]

HUNT: All right. Welcome back to THE ARENA.

We are continuing to watch this critical vote playing out on the Senate floor right now. It is what's called a cloture vote. That's the vote to break the filibuster, to pass the short term House Republican spending bill, one that many Democrats in the party's base are very opposed to. They're angry about Senator Chuck Schumer, the minority leader, who seems to be saying that he is saying he will vote to keep the government open and that there will be eight Democrats that will assist him in that effort.

And there is apparently a -- what's called a time agreement in the Senate to move forward on this. Congressman McHenry, I just want to kind of pick up where we left off in terms of the dynamics here and what the fallout may be. I had one, you know, we put this question out to sources today about, is Schumer in political trouble over what he's doing? What are the dynamics here?

One Democrat wrote back to me that shutting the government down is a quick way to move from the loyal opposition to the permanent opposition. Do you agree with that?

MCHENRY: Look, the Senate dynamics are so different than the House dynamics here, but the reality of congressional leadership is you have to make the unpopular choice in order to keep your troops in line and preserve them for the battle ahead. It's March. It is March.

So the -- the doom and gloom about the next election or the joy about it is a little out of out of hand here. So Schumer is not dead, nor is he in some great strategic position. He made a very practical decision. He made it too late and too publicly. And that is causing him additional political grief.

But it's where his colleagues are that elect him that really matters for this and that. That is a very different thing than the body politic of the American people, much less the base of the Democratic Party. HUNT: And our Dana Bash, Kate, reported that some of the frustration

-- and it's almost unclear to me exactly what how emotional Senator Michael Bennet of Colorado is about the question of shutdown or not. But he does seem to be very angry about the point that the congressman is making, which is that the messaging has been all over the place and that to a certain extent, like they could have still had this outcome where the government stays open and not under, you know, not taken as much water.

She reported in one notable moment this week, Colorado Senate Michael Bennet, who has not been shy about his frustration with party leadership in the past, erupted during one of the Senate Democrats private meetings and accused Senate Democratic leadership of having, quote, no strategy, no plan and no message.

BEDINGFIELD: Well, any time it looks like you're making a public whipsaw in the space of 48 hours, that doesn't feel good. That doesn't even get to the right strategic outcome, which I did and would continue to argue. I think Schumer actually has here. That doesn't feel good. That doesn't inspire confidence in your troops. I mean, that's, you know, that's just inherently.

And -- and it strikes me, you know, I think some of the arguments that Schumer made in "The New York Times" op-ed that he put out as soon as he announced that he was going to vote for cloture, were -- were strong.

And I actually think this point about, you know, voting for a shutdown, giving the Trump White House wide leeway to determine who gets to go to work. You also are kind of handing Elon Musk on a platter. Here are the non-essential employees of the federal government from a messaging perspective.

So had he made that argument from the outset, rather than saying, you know, I think we have the votes to hold the line, I think he would be in a better place than --

MCHENRY: They needlessly upped the drama of something Democratic members of the House and Senate have done for a long, long time, which is vote for the government. It is the party that likes government, likes government services.

How do you make the argument that I loved it so much that I killed it and turned it off? It is an awkward, weird thing to do and try to justify, and it's awkward even when were discussing it like this. But even more awkward when you have to go make that argument and contort yourself into that argument to justify a vote.

GRIFFIN: Well, and Speaker Johnson deserves a lot of credit because I'm not sure many of us thought that this was going to advance through the House with Republican-only support. And I think this moment speaks to just how helpless Democrats feel. They know that Donald Trump has a legislative agenda in the pipeline from his tax bill to energy, that they're just not going to be able to stop because they're seeing that Republicans are actually coming together.

You had the one defection of Thomas Massie. That's something you never saw, that I never saw it when I worked in the House.

[16:40:02]

HUNT: That's why you're here and not there.

MCHENRY: The joy --

TODD: Chip Roy, really?

(CROSSTALK)

MCHENRY: Stepping back --

BEDINGFIELD: Andy Biggs --

MCHENRY: Stepping back, we're focusing on --

TODD: Eli Crane.

MCHENRY: Let's step back for a moment. Mike Johnson, no speaker gets great style points because managing house Republicans is really difficult. And it's hard to be a congressional leader. It's just a very different.

TODD: Washing a cat.

MCHENRY: Yes. Well, also, you suffer indignities in public. That's what you do. And Schumer is doing that right now.

But Mike Johnson put together a coalition with Donald Trump's help. Yes, it is the most masterful vote I've seen of Johnson's speakership. And it happened with Republican only vote to fund the government. I mean, that is hard under any circumstances, even with Donald Trump's help. So, kudos to Johnson and the Republican leadership team putting that together.

HUNT: One, one thing I want to kind of bring into this conversation, just because its kind of related to you mentioned Elon Musk and how it might show if there were a shutdown. You know, employees in the government, there is a lot of anger out there in the country that we've seen on display in town halls.

And there was this moment with Chuck Edwards in North Carolina. I just want to play it and kind of talk about it. As we think about the big picture of where the country is going, watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. CHUCK EDWARDS (R-NC): This scale.

CONSTITUENT: Why is an unelected person running our government?

CONSTITUENT: You're lying. I'm a veteran to me. You don't give a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) about me.

EDWARDS: To be clear -- CONSTITUENT: Shut the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) up. You want to take away my

rights.

EDWARDS: I was proud to vote recently for the House budget resolution, which provides the framework.

(BOOS)

CONSTITUENT: Traitor!

CONSTITUENT: Just go to hell!

CONSTITUENT: Fascist!

EDWARDS: And you wonder why folks don't want to do these town halls.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Chuck, I would like you to weigh in. But, Congressman, you just told me, as we were listening to this that you used to represent --

MCHENRY: The Buncombe County, Buncombe County, and had the honor --

TODD: The blue dot of western Carolina right.

MCHENRY: At the honor of getting in the city of Asheville, about 15 to 17 percent of the vote every election cycle.

And so, Chuck may do that here, but the idea of actually going into the belly of the beast and having a town hall is a statement of purpose in and of itself. But, you know, house Republicans are saying, well, maybe we shouldn't do in-person town hall meetings.

Yes, you've got to go take these licks. Go make your arguments, make sure you have a good message. Don't be afraid of it. Do not be afraid of it. Go, go carry out the message on why these cuts matter and how they're going to affect the economy, to the constituents benefit.

TODD: No. Look, I just the I am I mean, I'm shocked that he went to Asheville to hold that town hall. Like, what do you expect of -- of what you were going to invite.

HUNT: But I will say --

TODD: I give him credit for doing it. I, you know, I, you know, you know, I -- he invited this onto himself, but I -- you know, the peoples house should be talking to the people. So in theory, you know, this is exactly what, what you would hope you would see.

But I wanted to step back and just throw one thing that I think sort of. Explains sort of senatorial behavior a little bit here and I think sort of is a problem for the Democratic Party right now is its biggest donors, and its strategists are to the left of their own voters.

On the Republican side, its donors and its strategists are to the left of their base voters. Well, on the Republican side, if you're to the left of your base, it gets you closer and understanding how to how to not alienate swing voters. I think the Democratic Party has a problem in that some of the people that have the ear of these senators, some of the ones that are on speed dial and telling them this is a mistake, or to the left of the rank and file Democratic voter.

This has been a frustration -- I know it's a frustration for you at the Biden White House, a little bit in that there's always been this weird -- it's a weird dynamic, and it is fascinating to me, literally, the Republican strategist community is to the left of their voters, and the Democratic strategist community is still left to their voters. That overall ends up benefiting the person that's in closer to the swing voter.

HUNT: Yeah, really interesting.

All right. We're going to continue to keep our eye here on the Senate floor where the votes are still coming in on this key procedural vote that will potentially avert a government shutdown tonight.

Senator Chris Coons is standing by for us live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:48:32]

HUNT: All right. Welcome back to THE ARENA.

The Senate is voting right now on a procedural motion that could avert a government shutdown. I want to get right to one of the key Senate Democrats that we have been watching all day long, Senator Chris Coons of Delaware.

Sir, I'm very grateful to have you on the show. I want to start with how you're voting on this and why.

SEN. CHRIS COONS (D-DE): I'm voting no, because this is a terrible C.R. It is a Republican-written continuing resolution that will keep the government open, but at a real price. It will continue to empower cuts to things like veterans health care and the office that delivers Social Security checks, to agencies and departments across the government. And I think we should instead have demanded and secured a vote on a 30 day continuation of the government and gone to negotiate the full year appropriations bills that so many of us who serve on the appropriations committee, like me, worked very hard to get past the committee.

HUNT: Sir, our -- is there not a significant risk if you are someone who wants to see the government function as Democrats have repeatedly said, that they are, as you have faced shutdown fight after shutdown fight, as Republicans have shown a willingness to do it -- is there not a risk here that if you let the government shut down, you won't be able to open it again? And that Republicans may take advantage of it?

[16:50:01]

COONS: Yes. That is a real and credible risk. And that's why I respect my colleagues who will vote yes tonight, because we are in unusual times.

And the reality is that President Trump, Elon Musk, OMB director vote are already shutting down significant parts of this government. They're acting illegally. Several federal courts have already held that. They are slashing and cutting down things like foreign aid, like veterans assistance, like the office that protects us from consumer fraud.

And so they have already been piecemeal going after the government. We can't expect that if there were a shutdown, that President Trump wouldn't make a naked power grab and go after the ability to lay off hundreds of thousands of federal employees. So this isn't like previous shutdowns. This has made it a tough discussion in my caucus. But we are faced with a bad choice and a really bad choice, and that's made for a real vigorous debate in my caucus.

Kasie, the thing we all agree on is that Republicans keep moving ahead their proposal to slash Medicaid funding in order to pay for a tax cut for billionaires, every single Democrat opposes that. And that's what they've been moving on this week. That's what they will be working on over the coming weeks.

And as this year unfolds, voters and your viewers will see that Republicans are willing to slash Medicaid that cares for disabled children, that funds health care, that cares for our seniors in order to pay for a big tax cut.

HUNT: Sir, you mentioned how difficult this has been for your Democratic caucus, and certainly we've been reporting here some of these moments. There was a very striking one today at the House Democratic retreat, where the minority leader there, Hakeem Jeffries, was asked about how your leader, Chuck Schumer, had handled all of this and kind of whether he -- well, let me play the moment for you, and then we'll talk about it on the other side.

Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Have you lost confidence in him? The fact that you guys see this so differently?

REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): Next question.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Next question. How do you think how Hakeem Jeffries handled that question there reflects the tension between -- between you?

COONS: Well, there's a clear difference between how the leadership of the House Democrats and the Senate Democrats came down on this question. But I'll repeat what I just said a moment ago. It's a choice between a bad outcome and a very bad outcome. And as leaders, they respect each other and they understand why they have differences of opinion about exactly how this should have moved forward. Sometimes being a leader means making a very hard decision. And so

while I am voting no tonight and I'm proud to vote no, and I frankly think we should have picked the fight here, I also understand and respect why my caucus leader is voting differently.

HUNT: And sir, quickly, before I let you go, we do just want to note, we're reporting now here at CNN that there do appear to be enough Democratic votes yes, on this procedural motion to avoid that shutdown.

Your reaction?

COONS: Look, I'm not going to disrespect my colleagues who see this differently than I do. I'm just going to focus on what unites Democrats, which is opposition to Medicaid cuts to pay for tax cuts for billionaires. That'll be the thing we are all talking about starting next week.

My whole delegation in Delaware, we are coming together at a hospital in Delaware to emphasize the harm that will be caused when Republicans keep barreling forward with their cuts to Medicaid.

HUNT: All right. Senator Chris of Delaware, very grateful to have you on the show today, sir. I hope you come back soon.

COONS: Thank you, Kasie.

HUNT: All right. Thank you.

All right. Thanks. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:58:38]

HUNT: All right. Welcome back. This Sunday at 9:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific on CNN, you will see a new episode of "UNITED STATES OF SCANDAL WITH JAKE TAPPER". This one follows the story of Enron, one of the most successful Wall Street corporations in the '90s, and its collapse into one of the biggest corporate frauds in American history.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST, THE LEAD: What was he doing that was so alarming and such a no-no?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In effect, if I just bought a company for $10 million from you and one month later, I'm saying, it's really worth 15. We're going to write it up to 15 and put 5 million on the income statement.

That 5 million is just bogus. You just made it up.

TAPPER: And that's what Jeff Skilling did.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's what they did. Yes. TAPPER: They would just assess what they thought it was worth.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. But just a month ago, we had just bought the asset.

TAPPER: There actually is a hard number.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's a hard number.

TAPPER: But they would not do that. They'd say, well, we think we can get five times this on the market, and so we're going to say this is worth $50 million.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, it was all legal, but you just can't write things up like that. I mean, that was the beginning of, of the seeds of the -- of the fraud that killed Enron.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: And of course, we are showing you that because Jake is with me now and is, of course, up next with "THE LEAD".

Hello. So you talked to a former Enron employee and whistleblower for this episode. What did you find out? What was the most surprising thing about all this?

HUNT: I won't tell you how old I was then.

(INAUDIBLE)

HUNT: Really? Well, Jake. Thank you. I'm excited to see it. Thanks to my panel as well. And of course, THE LEAD starts now.