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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt
Trump Touts Deals In First Trip To Middle East; Schumer Announces Blanket Hold On Trump Justice Nominees Over Qatar Plane Questions; New Book: Biden Aides Privately Discussed Putting Him A Wheelchair For A Potential Second Term; Now: Cassie Ventura, Ex- Girlfriend Of Sean "Diddy" Combs, Gives Graphic Testimony At His Criminal Trial In New York. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired May 13, 2025 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[16:00:03]
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Love it.
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: For girls, number five is Mia. Four is Charlotte. Amelia is number three. And Emma is the second favorite. The top baby girl name of last year, Olivia.
The SSA database let's you see how popular your name is. Brianna was 181st last year. I can't imagine my name makes that list.
KEILAR: Yeah, so what about Boris? Well, the SSA puts it this way. Boris is not in the top 1000 most selected boy names, which is why he's so special.
SANCHEZ: We can change this. We can change this. Consider Boris, as you're naming your baby.
KEILAR: "THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT" starts right now.
Little Boris, Marie.
(MUSIC)
KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: It's the red carpet versus the red flags.
Let's head into THE ARENA.
New controversies hanging over President Trump's extravagant trip to the Middle East.
His new announcement on Syria as Democrats put up a roadblock over that free jet from Qatar. Minority Leader Chuck Schumer is here live.
Also this hour, damning new details inside the Biden White House and his doomed reelection campaign. Aides revealing once private concerns over his health, even considering using a wheelchair. That and more with Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker. He's here exclusively in THE ARENA.
Plus, dramatic and graphic testimony from a key witness in the trial of Sean "Diddy" Combs, former girlfriend, Cassie Ventura, detailing years of mental and physical abuse.
Hi, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. Welcome to THE ARENA. It's wonderful to have you with us on this Tuesday.
Right now in Riyadh, Donald Trump appears to be having the time of his life. The American president getting the royal treatment, the Saudi government rolling out not a red carpet, but a purple carpet. There was also a fighter jet, escort, horses, trumpets, giant portraits of royalty and in rooms filled with gold chandeliers that, let's be real, would fit right in at Mar-a-Lago.
Trump signed agreements with the crown prince, and he later praised Mohammed bin Salman in glowing terms.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: A new generation of leaders is transcending the ancient conflicts of tired divisions of the past and forging a future where the Middle East is defined by commerce, not chaos, where it exports technology, not terrorism, and where people of different nations, religions and creeds are building cities together, not bombing each other out of existence. We don't want that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Donald Trump invested in that vision of the future, not just as president of the United States, but personally. A new CNN tally has found that the Trump family business ties to the Middle East have more than tripled since his first term in office. They include luxury skyscrapers, a golf course and billion-dollar crypto deals.
And then, of course, there is Qatar's offer to give the president that ultra luxurious Boeing 747. The Qatari government said it would be offered free of charge to the U.S. government for use as Air Force One until Boeing can deliver a new plane. Then, in a twist, it would be given to Trump's presidential library so that he could continue to use it.
But didn't your mother tell you that there is no such thing as a free lunch? Mine sure did. And there are some Republicans who are criticizing Trump for wanting to accept the plane.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEN SHAPIRO, PODCAST HOST: President Trump promised to drain the swamp. This is not, in fact, draining the swamp.
BATYA UNGAR-SARGON, AUTHOR, SECOND CLASS: This is not a gift. This is Qatar, a state sponsor of terror that has Hamas in the palm of his hand, giving a bribe.
SEN. JOSH HAWLEY (R-MO): We could probably sweep the plane, right? But I think the bigger issue is, is we can build stuff in the United States.
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: I haven't had a chance to even look at that yet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: House Speaker Mike Johnson there with a -- it's really a classic of the "I haven't seen the tweet" genre that we saw so much during the first term.
And of course, new this afternoon, Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer has announced that he will place a blanket hold on all of President Trump's nominees for the Department of Justice until the DOJ discloses potential conflicts of interest between the Qatari government, President Trump and the Trump Organization.
We have an excellent panel here to discuss throughout the hour, but we are going to start with Senate Democratic leader Chuck Schumer, who is live with us now from Capitol Hill.
Senator Schumer, I'm so grateful to have you in THE ARENA.
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): Good afternoon, Kasie. Good afternoon.
HUNT: I want to start with this hold that you've put on these nominees, because, of course, Democrats have been pushing you and the colleagues of yours that you lead to do more to oppose President Trump. Is that what this is?
SCHUMER: No, this is an issue of outright bribery and a serious issue of national security as well, to let any foreign country donate, quote/unquote, a 747 that is the presidential plane, Air Force One, that's the most sophisticated plane in the world, more than any other plane.
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And there are huge security issues if someone else donates it.
In fact, if this happens and I pray to God that it doesn't because it's such a security risk, they'd have to take apart the entire plane down to the screws and nuts and bolts, and see if any listening devices were implanted in it.
So, it's a huge national security issue. It's an issue of bribery. This is probably the biggest -- I'm certain it's the biggest gift, quote/unquote, that has ever been given to a sitting president. And as your person said, there, not only is there no free lunch, there's no free Air Force One.
HUNT: I think I was saying it was my mother who frequently told me that. There's no free lunch.
SCHUMER: Well, I'm glad to quote your mother, Kasie. She's a very wise woman.
HUNT: Thank you very much, Senator.
So, bottom line here, though, it doesn't seem like anybody could actually stop this from happening. Is there anything you can do to stop it?
SCHUMER: Well, you've heard even on your show, there are a whole lot of Republicans who are worried here. They -- I hope they're worried about the bribery issue and the relationship that Trump has. You know, there's something called FARA, Foreign Agents Registration Act, that already this Justice Department is weakened.
Who are the other Qatari agents here? What relationships have they had? What offers have they made to Donald Trump, to members of his family, to members of his administration?
So, there are so many issues here that I hope we've already heard some Republican congressional people talk about how bad this is, and I hope there are some serious people within the administration who take our national security seriously who will tell Trump he can't do this, but it's outrageous. And by putting a hold, Kasie, we'll be able to debate it. We'll be able to vote on these nominees.
And I think the more sunlight that's brought to this issue. They didn't want to make it public. The greater the public outcry there will be. And hopefully that will persuade this administration to not do this not only dumb idea, but dangerous, dangerous idea.
HUNT: Senator, I want to ask you also about what's been going on in the Democratic Party. You, of course, have come in for no small amount of criticism from members of your own party. I'm going to speak later in the hour with Illinois governor J.B. Pritzker, who's talked about do nothing Democrats, politicians, pundits.
Do you think that he was including you in that criticism? And is there any validity to it?
SCHUMER: All I know is that Democrats in the House and the Senate are fighting this, these, this new reconciliation bill, tooth and nail. It's the largest Medicaid cut in history. If it happens, 14 million people will lose their health care between this and ACA, many more will pay.
Their premiums will go through the roof. Rural hospitals, local hospitals will close. Many, many will be thrown out of work. And many, many more will not get health care.
So, we are together, we're on our front foot. We're fighting very hard on this issue. And that's why the Republicans are having such trouble putting their reconciliation bill together. We're fighting on this. We're fighting on Social Security.
And then finally, when you realize they're cutting Medicaid, cutting health care, going after Social Security, all for tax breaks for the billionaires -- it's outrageous. And the public is on our side on this issue.
HUNT: I do -- I do hear the Democratic messaging that you always say that the public (ph) is on the side for.
Sir, I really do want to ask you about something that has been breaking out of CNN. Our Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson have written a book called "Original Sin", and they call it a cover up of Biden's health and his cognition -- and his fitness, quite frankly, to be president of the United States. You sat next to Biden in the Oval Office, February 27th, 2024, just a handful of months before the president took that debate stage.
And it was later reported that you and other Democratic leaders were talking before the debate about having a plan. You and Hakeem Jeffries, Nancy Pelosi, Barack Obama, I understand you later denied that that ever happened, but I am curious. I'm interested to know whether the man that you saw sitting there on that couch on that day, you were in there, you saw him up close and personal -- did you really not have any idea that he was not fit to serve a second term?
SCHUMER: Kasie, we're looking forward. We have the largest Medicaid cut in front of us. We have the whole federal government at risk.
(CROSSTALK)
HUNT: You're facing all of this because you lost a presidential election. And is that not Joe Biden's responsibility for deciding to run again?
SCHUMER: We're looking forward.
HUNT: That's it?
SCHUMER: That's it.
HUNT: All right. Senator Chuck Schumer, I know you got to go. I appreciate your time today. We'll see you soon, I hope.
SCHUMER: Thank you.
HUNT: Thank you.
SCHUMER: Take care.
HUNT: All right.
And our panel joins us now. CNN political commentator Jonah Goldberg; the host of "The Chuck Toddcast", Chuck Todd; Democratic strategist, Paul Begala; Republican pollster Kristen Soltis Anderson, both CNN political commentators.
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Chuck Todd, go.
CHUCK TODD, HOST OF "THE CHUCK TODDCAST": He is among the people that are responsible for this. The leaders of the Democratic Party, the staff of the White House. And I have to say, I find everybody now talking to these authors, get out of here. Go home. You're part of the problem. Now you tell us?
So -- I just and I find, you know, the reason why the Democratic Party has less credibility today, here's an unpopular president in the Democratic Party has a worse rating than the Republican Party with this catastrophic governance that we've seen over the last 120 days. And yet, why is the Democratic Party in worse shape? Because of this distrust, because of this, frankly, what the public feels as if the party leadership let them down and let them let this happen.
He's as responsible as anybody else. He was a leader in the party. He could have said something sooner, and he didn't.
JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I don't know. I thought Chuck Schumer was a voice of youthful vigor and energy who brought the new perspective to politics.
No. Look, I -- I think there is -- I think there are a lot of journalists, Alex Thompson and our colleague Jake Tapper, contrary to a lot of stuff you see on Twitter were actually pressing on this stuff very early on. But there is a problem with sort of just saying, oh, the Democratic leadership is responsible for this.
There was a lot of pushback, and a lot of the media also saying why --
TODD: There's a difference. Theres a difference in media, though. Joe Scarborough is not a journalist. He is a defender, right? Pundits were defending because they didn't want to lose their access --
GOLDBERG: Yeah.
TODD: -- to the White House. Journalists were getting essentially stonewalled.
GOLDBERG: Yeah, look --
TODD: So the actual journalists are doing the work. That's where I want to draw a line because I do sort of resent this idea that somehow it's the media's fault that Joe Biden ran for president. Ultimately, it is Joe Biden, the West Wing and the Democratic Party who created this disaster.
GOLDBERG: That's all fine, and I'm happy to concede it's more -- it's more complicated and nuanced than a lot of people want to make it out to be. It's also just worth pointing out like this was not -- I mean, Kristen can speak to this better than I can. This was not a secret to the American people. It was coming up in polling.
HUNT: They can see with their own eyes.
GOLDBERG: For a year. Everyone has someone in their family who struggled with age or infirmity, they saw it.
HUNT: It's not about the number. It's about where you are as a person.
GOLDBERG: Yeah. And so, like, there's this weird sort of like wagon circling that I think is just very weird going on.
KRISTEN SOLTIS ANDERSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: And I remember the day after the debate, a lot of the talk was, well, was this just a bad night or was this Joe Biden's in trouble? And there even after that debate. Was this real attempt to say, well, it was just a bad night. Well, it was just a bad night.
Where poll after poll after poll that I was seeing was saying, America is screaming, this is not just a bad night. This is exactly who we worried that he was.
HUNT: Paul Begala, I -- our viewers know you so well, and they know that you have been in these rooms where it's just you and the candidate and probably members of the family, right? And decisions like one to run or not. They are incredibly personal. There is an incredible amount of pressure to protect the principal, to protect the family.
I am really interested in your sort of understanding of how the personal dynamics drove what happened here, because Biden himself was so motivated to beat Donald Trump. He really was convicted he was the only one who could. And the reality was ended up being that he was the one that was going to lose the worst to him, even though he's still not convinced of that to this day.
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Right. That was the only vote. First off, I'm looking forward -- looking forward to reading Jake's book because I want to know what the hell happened.
I want accountability. I appreciate what Chuck says. I kind of feel that way, but it's not really accurate. Okay? It's Joe Biden's decision alone.
You know what worked to get Joe Biden out of the race before that debate? Nothing. Okay. My partner, James Carville, every day was on TV screaming. Our colleague David Axelrod every day on TV saying Biden was too old.
You know what effect that had? Nothing. That God bless him, that Irishman.
HUNT: Why didn't just run against him, though?
BEGALA: Because in all of American history --
HUNT: I mean, Dean Phillips did. I went to New Hampshire with Dean Phillips.
BEGALA: In all of American history, you know how many people have defeated an incumbent president in their own party? None.
Teddy Roosevelt, the greatest politician who ever lived, tried to do that. Hed already been president.
TODD: They drove LBJ out of the race.
BEGALA: He could. He drove out his one. They drove Joe Biden out. They didn't defeat him. Running against him wasn't going to work. Punditing wasn't going to work.
I love Joe Biden. This is entirely his decision. And I don't -- people try to blame like the first lady or the pundits.
HUNT: So you blame Biden at the end of the day?
BEGALA: Yes, yes, it was a catastrophe. I think he did great things as president. Really great things, historically great things. But the choice to run again for the exact reason, I suspect, I didn't talk to him. I think you're exactly right. I think he fell for the kind of president-itis that he thought, you know, De Gaulle said the graveyards are filled with indispensable men.
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And he thought he was -- he should have looked at Nancy Pelosi, I think the greatest speaker in American history. She handed off to gavel a new generation took over the earth, turned on its axis. The Democrats did just fine.
HUNT: And now, they're not speaking to each other.
BEGALA: It's a tragedy. Nancy was right. Joe was wrong.
HUNT: All right. Well, we're going to have a lot more on this throughout the hour. And coming up at the top of the next hour, Jake Tapper is going to have some new revelations from his book on former President Biden.
But first, here, we're going to talk with Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker in an exclusive interview.
But first, we're going to discuss the pivotal witness who took the stand in the criminal trial of Sean "Diddy" Combs, inside the graphic testimony from the musician's former girlfriend, Cassie Ventura.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:20:11]
HUNT: All right. You're looking live at the federal courthouse in New York City, where day two of testimony in the Sean "Diddy" Combs sex trafficking trial is underway.
Right now, Combs's ex-girlfriend and accuser, Cassie Ventura is on the stand, and she has been giving graphic details about their relationship and the abuse that she says she suffered.
CNN anchor and chief legal analyst Laura Coates, standing by live outside the courthouse.
We're also joined by CNN entertainment reporter Lisa France and entertainment attorney Lisa Bonner.
Laura, let me go to you first. You were inside the overflow room, inside the courthouse. You were able to see these proceedings. Just take us through the moment Cassie took the stand and everything else that stood out to you today. LAURA COATES, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: You can watch her directly in
this courtroom as she took the stand. It was a profound moment, knowing that this is the star witness for the prosecution's case. She has to bridge the gap, Kasie, between the person that the public thinks Sean "Diddy" Combs is and the person the prosecution is saying that he is a racketeer, a sex trafficker engaging in interstate prostitution as well.
Immediately when she walked in, you noticed she is noticeably pregnant. She took a stance and placed in the witness stand, throwing her overcoat off of the ledge of it, and began to testify in detail about the abuse she says she suffered at the hands of a man that she desperately loved, calling herself a people pleaser, that she was sexually naive and inexperienced, and he was her first adult relationship. She referred to him only as Sean and described in graphic detail what took place at the so-called freak offs days long drug fueled sex encounters that she says she did not want to participate in.
Remember, they've got to try to prove racketeering. They have to try to prove sex trafficking and prostitution. All of that is going to entail that bridge gap. But more specifically, they got to talk about for the latter two charges, trafficking and prostitution. The idea of fraud or force or coercion or threats to use in order to get the person to commit these acts.
So far, we have not heard from Cassie that she was forced against her will. And or she said specifically that she did not want to do something and did not backpedal out of that conversation with Sean "Diddy" Combs.
There's a lot more to unpack. There was one very emotional moment I want to point out, and that was they asked her, was there anything you enjoyed about these so-called freak offs? She began to cry and say, time spent with him because I wanted one on one time.
Theres an irony in that. There was always a third-party participant who was there as well, a paid escort. But she talked about through the course of this, the pictures of escorts, some of whom she recognized, some who she did not, pictures of the so-called enterprise, the inner circle, staff and others, security guards who they claim facilitated the RICO conspiracy to commit other crimes.
HUNT: Lisa Bonner, let me go to you just on what we heard from Cassie Ventura, was obviously very emotional. I mean, these details are very, very difficult to hear, but I'm interested to know what you think it means in terms of the case against him and the likelihood that prosecutors will succeed in prosecuting said case.
LISA BONNER, ENTERTAINMENT ATTORNEY AND FORMER LITIGATOR: Well, that's a great question. The issue here is, you know, consent and having her trafficked across state lines for the against her will. So right now, the prosecution is just basically laying the foundation. What actually happened? They want a life size picture, a full-blown color picture, if you will, of really what took place. And she is answering those questions in graphic detail. Some of them,
even as I worked in the field of domestic violence. And for me that is hard to hear. So, they are doing a very good job, in my opinion, of laying the foundation of what these freak offs look like.
However, it is important to remember that "Diddy" is not on trial for his proclivities, his sexual proclivities. But you do have to create the nexus between using his company and using those people under his employ to forcibly move her over state lines. And, you know, remove consent in order to have her participate in these freak offs.
So that is what I assume, that the prosecution would go next. But for right now, they're just laying a very detailed case of what actually took place against her will. And she did say, you know, I wanted to spend time with him. I -- I thought he knew. And that is very indicative of a lot of times of these domestic abuse survivors in terms of they really just want to please their alleged abuser.
HUNT: Yeah. And, you know, Lisa Respers France, speaking of, you know, Cassie's humanity and the horrible things that she says she went through. You write this piece on CNN.com about her not letting victim- shaming stop her from sharing her story.
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You write this quote, the woman who was often the quiet beauty on Combs's arms at events -- arms -- for more than a decade, has opened herself up to the judgment that comes for almost all women who accuse men, especially celebrities, of wrongdoing.
Talk about what this moment in a spotlight she sure did not ask for is like for her.
LISA RESPERS FRANCE, CNN ENTERTAINMENT REPORTER: Yeah, I think it is clearly a very emotional moment. We saw, you know, well, we didn't actually see it, but we know from the testimony that's been reported that she broke down and cried.
But I also think that on some levels, it may be an empowering moment for her because we read the horrifying allegations that were made in her November 2023 lawsuit civil suit that she filed against Sean Combs, but to actually have her speaking these words and expressing, you know, I mean, first of all, that lawsuit was the first one I had ever seen with a trigger warning, so you knew immediately that this was going to be tough. But to have her sit there within weeks of giving birth and having to recount this, because we also know that the public is very quick when there's a woman who accuses a powerful man of doing something, of saying, oh, she's in it for the money, she wants to be famous.
And honestly, having covered cases like this for years, I don't know a single person who wants to be known as a victim of domestic violence or a victim of sexual assault. You know, that is nothing that you want to be famous for. It does not make you money. Even if you get money, that's not the way that you want to get money. And so, in this case, I think, she is having a moment of being able to
have her say and own her own narrative and be able to allow people to hear directly from her what she says happened to her, Kasie. And I think it's an extremely profound moment, not only for her, but for other people who have made such allegations, who also say that they are victims of either domestic violence, sexual assault, or in this case, both.
HUNT: And, of course, in this case, there is video that was admitted as evidence that was originally obtained by CNN of that incident between Diddy and Cassie Ventura.
Laura Coates, quickly, before we go here, what do we expect over the coming days?
COATES: We will hear a lot more testimony from Cassie Ventura. Keep in mind, the direct might be multiple days, but then the cross- examination. This is the moment that Lisa is talking about. And, of course, the notion of the money grab. That phrase was used by the defense in their opening statement to suggest all the, quote/unquote, millions of reasons one would have to concoct a story or testify in this courtroom.
That is going to be part of their central defense, that this was indeed a money grab by somebody who was disgruntled and also vehemently jealous of Sean "Diddy" Combs' mother of his children, the late Kim Porter, who died tragically of pneumonia. That will be woven into the entire testimony. But when we see that cross will be very illuminating about what comes next.
But for now, Cassie will remain on this stand with a lot more to say.
HUNT: All right. Laura Coates. Lisa France, Lisa Bonner, thank you all very much for joining us today on this.
And do be sure to watch a special edition tonight of "LAURA COATES LIVE, "Diddy on Trial", 11:00 p.m. Eastern, right here on CNN.
And we do want to give you a reminder. If you or someone you know is struggling with intimate partner violence, there are places to go for help. The National Domestic Violence hotline, you can call one 1800- 799-SAFE or text "Start" to 88788.
All right. Coming up next here, our one on one exclusive with Governor J.B. Pritzker. What he's telling us about whether he'll run for a third term as governor of Illinois or try to, you know, get another job here in Washington.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:33:27]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
INTERVIEWER: Are you thinking at all about 2028?
GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER (D), MICHIGAN: I'm always thinking about, you know, the future.
GOV. WES MOORE (D), MARYLAND: I am not running.
JOY BEHAR, CO-HOST, "THE VIEW: You're not?
MOORE: I'm not running.
GOV. ANDY BESHEAR (D), KENTUCKY: We'll find somebody that can bring this nation together, hopefully find some common ground and something I'll consider.
(EN VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Democratic governors across the country fielding questions left and right about 2028 and what their plans are, whether they're going to seek their party's nomination for president.
As you've heard, most of them give highly political answers. If you want to get a sense of who may be in the mix, look no further than where Democrats are traveling. Former Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttigieg heading to Iowa today for a town hall. Nobody goes to Iowa by accident. And Governor Tim Walz and Wes Moore are both attending events in South Carolina later on this month.
My next guest has been to the historically important primary state of New Hampshire, where he made headlines for this call to action to his fellow Democrats.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. J.B. PRITZKER (D), ILLINOIS: Never before in my life have I called for mass protests, for mobilization, for disruption. But I am now. These Republicans cannot know a moment of peace. They have to understand that we will fight their cruelty with every megaphone and microphone that we have.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: And joining us now is the man you saw there, Democratic governor of Illinois, J.B. Pritzker.
Governor, thank you so much for being in THE ARENA.
PRITZKER: Great to be here.
[16:35:00]
HUNT: So, let's start right there. You had a very pointed call. You called many of your fellow Democratic politicians do-nothing political types. Who do you think in Washington is doing nothing?
PRITZKER: Well, I should start by disputing something you said earlier. I live in Illinois. If you make a wrong turn, you can accidentally end up in Iowa.
HUNT: That's fair. That is fair. PRITZKER: But hard to end up in New Hampshire by accident.
HNT: That's true.
PRITZKER: Look, I -- my concern is that there are a lot of people who are complaining about where the Democratic Party is and what the messaging is of the Democratic Party, who themselves really haven't accomplished a lot for working people.
And we need to be focused on working families across the United States. It needs to be all about, are we making it more affordable to live? Can you send your kids to college? Can you afford that? Can you go to the grocery store and afford eggs, for example? And I -- the people who are complaining are people who are talking in theory.
I run a state. I have to worry about whether people can afford to live every single day, and we need to provide them with health care. We need to make sure that we're delivering a better living for them, raising the minimum wage as we have in Illinois.
So, that's what I'm complaining about -- the people who talk a lot about and complain a lot about where the Democratic Party is, because we lost in 2024, when they haven't themselves delivered for the American people.
HUNT: Fair enough. So how would you answer that question that many of your other fellow governors are having to respond to? Are you running for president in 2028?
PRITZKER: Kasie, I am up for potentially for reelection in 2026 as governor. So, I still have to make that decision and let people know what that decision is.
And I do believe that we're in a moment when people have to stand up and fight. It's a time to make sure that you're stopping Donald Trump and the MAGA Republicans in Congress as best we can, because health care is being taken away from people. SNAP benefits, that's, you know, food for children who otherwise couldn't afford it.
You know, we've got to make sure that the terrible things that are being proposed by the right wing Republicans who are in control of Congress don't happen. So, the question is, how can I best participate in the fight?
HUNT: Yeah.
PRITZKER: And so, whether that's being governor or not, whether that's, you know, potentially in the future running for president, it's just to me about we've got to win in 2026. If Congress doesn't become Democratically controlled in 2026, I think we're in for a very bumpy ride for the last two years of Trump's presidency.
HUNT: I'm glad you raised your decision about your potential gubernatorial bid because David Axelrod, of course, great friend of us here at CNN, was on his podcast and had this advice. He, of course, comes from your home state as well. He said that if you harbor White House ambitions, you should think hard about leaving Springfield, of course, the capital of Illinois, after two terms because of the political volatility that being governor can bring.
He said this, quote, third, terms are notoriously perilous and things that can go wrong tend to go wrong in third terms. If your attention is divided between running for president, which is a hellacious job in and of itself -- fact check, true -- which and dealing with crises at home. It's a very difficult balance to strike. Is Axelrod right?
PRITZKER: David's a friend of mine. Here's what I can say. I think he has in mind the idea that his friend Rahm Emanuel would like to run for governor of Illinois.
HUNT: Aha!
PRITZKER: Probably wouldn't run for governor if I were running for reelection. So that's one thing that I think he's considering. The other thing I think he's suggesting -- he's not wrong. You know, when you talk to people who've considered running for a third term, they would tell you that sometimes third terms don't work out for people. It hasn't happened very often, but, you know, if you look at Jay Inslee in Washington state, he had a fabulous third term and really accomplished quite a lot and was able to finish a lot of things that he started in his first two terms.
So, it can happen either way. Frankly, you can have a flub that occurs in your first term or in your second term. It could happen in your third term. Things happen. My focus is on lifting up the people of the state of Illinois, advancing the cause of the economy for our state, and making sure that I'm bringing what I have been, I think, for the last six and a half years, which is fiscal stability to a state that really wasn't stable for many years before.
HUNT: When you think about the message that you're pitching right for Democrats and you've laid it out here already in this interview talking about protecting SNAP benefits, talking about affordability, working class families, how do you see yourself and your own profile in terms of what kind of messenger you could be? You are a billionaire heir. Is that the right profile for Democrats to have when that is the message that you need to be portraying?
[16:40:00]
PRITZKER: Look, the right profile is somebody who actually has demonstrated that they stand up for working families. I've been in office six and a half years. I heard this when I was running for office. Do we really want a wealthy person as governor, especially back then in a moment when Donald Trump, a wealthy person, was president of the United States and failing the country?
HUNT: Right.
PRITZKER: When my predecessor, the incumbent Republican governor, was very wealthy person and failing the state of Illinois. So, I heard all of that when I was running for the Democratic nomination in 2018. And the fact is that I think I've proven that I've stood up for working families. We have hundreds of thousands more people who have health care because of the work that I've done.
We raised the minimum wage from $8.25 in the state of Illinois to $15 now. We have lifted up the standard of living in the state of Illinois, and we've attracted businesses and jobs. So, you know, I've accomplished quite a lot, I think, and demonstrated that it doesn't matter what your net worth is, what matters is what are you actually doing for people to lift them up and to advance the cause of your state.
HUNT: So, let's go back to the comments that you made when you were in New Hampshire. Really strong call for protests and a real, you know, the way that you described what was going on that the flames, this is not a normal political moment that we're living in, right? With Donald Trump.
One of the things that were talking about today, there's new reporting from our Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson in this new book about former President Biden, about how aides considered whether feared that he would need to use a wheelchair, about how he didn't recognize Ggeorge Clooney at a fundraiser. And I'm interested to know how much responsibility do you think President Biden bears for the second presidency of Donald Trump because of his refusal not to run?
PRITZER: Yeah, I think that's a good question and I think posed the right way. What I mean to say is, look, all this stuff about his health or, you know, commentary that people are making in books. Frankly, that's very backward looking.
I think the one thing that I would say is that certainly either he needed to be the Democratic nominee, as he promised he would be, or he needed to drop out before the Democratic primaries. Right?
You can't have -- and I learned this when I ran for governor. If you're going to have new people running, right, you've got to be able to run in a set of primaries so people can see you operate. They get to know you during a set of primaries.
They -- remember when he dropped out, when Biden dropped out and essentially asked Kamala Harris to step up, which was the right thing to do if he's going to step away, people didn't know who she was. And with 108 days left, it was near impossible for her to introduce herself. If you asked 100 people on the street, do they know who the vice president is? Most people have no idea. They didn't know much about Kamala Harris, honestly.
You and I do, and people who follow politics do, but most people don't. Maybe five people out of 100.
So, she had to go introduce herself, tell everybody who she is, withstand all the scrutiny and attacks that were coming from the other side, and had only 108 days to accomplish the goal of winning. You know, that is the problem that occurred. And everybody that wants to attack what Democrats said or how the messaging worked, or whether Kamala Harris was the right person in the time has to recognize that there weren't a lot of other alternatives because Joe Biden didn't run. So, I don't know whether he should have been the nominee or not. I
don't really want to review all of it because its past history and we live in a moment right now when 500,000 people in the state of Illinois are being told, basically, they're going to lose their health care because of what the Republicans are doing, when everything that people care about, like veterans services, the our rural -- our farmers in Illinois are under attack by this administration -- I mean, we're dealing with what do we do to stop the onslaught from Donald Trump and his followers that are taking on and ruining the lives of so many people across my state, as well as the United States?
HUNT: Yeah. Do you think it's helpful for President Biden to be out on the view, for example, in this moment?
PRITZKER: You know, look, I think former presidents getting out and talking about their tenure and what the situation of the United States is, they're very unusual. Remember, how many people do we have that have been former presidents that can talk about what it was like to be president and what their views are? They know so much more than average folks who are watching "The View", let's say. And so, it's helpful for people to hear a perspective. That doesn't mean you have to agree with it.
Is it helpful politically? I don't think that's why he's doing it. Honestly, I don't think he's out there like, let me go promote the Democratic Party by going on "The View". I think he's somebody that, you know, he just like anybody else. I think he's trying to share his experiences.
Remember before he was president, he spent 50 years as a United States senator and working really hard to do a lot of good things over a lot of years.
[16:45:07]
HUNT: Yeah.
PRITZKER: So, I don't think it's fair to sort of attack him for, for coming out and, you know, expressing, you know, his experiences to the viewers.
HUNT: Did you know how bad things were with President Biden before the election?
PRITZKER: When you say how bad things were, I mean, what I can say is I saw him a few times. I certainly went to the White House whenever there was an opportunity for me to make the case for something for people in my state and I never had the experience of anything other than a guy who brought to the table a lot of good ideas about how to solve problems.
HUNT: Yeah.
PRITZKER: So, to the extent people are now saying, well, we thought about whether he should have a wheelchair, which I understand is one of the things that was said, I never heard any of that. I never saw any of that.
HUNT: All right. Fair enough.
Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker, so grateful to have you on the show. Come back anytime. Love to see you again. Thank you.
PRITZKER: Great to see you.
HUNT: All right. Up next, I'm going to head back to the table. Our panel weighs in on that exclusive conversation with Governor J.B. Pritzker.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:50:30]
HUNT: All right. Welcome back to THE ARENA.
Our panel is back to discuss what we just heard from Governor Pritzker. And, of course, we earlier spoke with the Senate minority leader, Chuck Schumer, about the future of the party.
Chuck Todd, I was interested to hear him say that he thinks Rahm Emanuel wants to be governor of Illinois and not president of the United States.
TODD: I don't know about you. Did anybody else ever hear Rahm talk about being governor of Illinois? Like that sounded like a guy going, we're both trying to raise money from the same group of big donors in Chicago. Wouldn't it be great if Rahm ran for governor and I ran for president?
HUNT: Wouldn't it be convenient?
TODD: Look, as we know it is tough. If you want to run for president and you share a political base of some sort, but particularly in the same state. I mean, it is true, Pritzker and Rahm would eat each other, would collide into each other. And Pritzker is probably slightly more liberal than Rahm is, but that wouldn't be noticed.
Look, I'm a little more skeptical of Rahm Emanuel, only because it's not like he was a popular mayor of Chicago. Now, if you say to me who's got the best resume. I would say Rahm Emanuel might have the best resume to actually do the job. But you actually, you know, it's a -- I'm trying to especially if I was first in the nation. I want to see Rahm stepping in cow dung in there. And I'm sure he's going to -- he's going to mail me some cow dung after hearing this.
HUNT: Eating the corn dog on a stick. Yeah.
Paul Begala?
BEGALA: Well, you know, Rahm is one of my closest friends.
HUNT: Right, I know.
BEGALA: I can't be fair and objective about it.
TODD: He will send me cow dung though, right?
BEGALA: I know he's -- he was a very successful diplomat, brought together South Korea and Japan, two centuries long enemies to be allied with America. So -- but the thing I think Democrats want, and I'm a Democrat, I talk to them all the time, and it's not actually diplomatic skill or resume or charm. It's strength. It's strength.
My definition of Democrat is somebody who's scared to take his own side in a fight.
Okay, Rahm is not scared to take his own side, but they're going to insist. I think JB could -- could meet that test to begin that speech he gave in New Hampshire. But that's what Democrats want.
And it's very different from fidelity to left wing woke principles, which seem to dominate a lot.
TODD: You're going to be a moderate fighter. If you're a fighter, you can be a centrist?
BEGALA: Absolutely. But if they if they still stick on some of the woke stuff that hung up Kamala Harris, they're going to lose anyway. They're going to lose again.
ANDERSON: Yeah. Extremeness does not just have to be ideological. It can also be temperamental. And that's what I see in my data as well that there's not actually a big appetite among the Democratic base to move to the far left, but they are wondering when this leadership of their party will feel less anemic and do something.
I think the big question is, in both the interview with Schumer and the interview with Governor Pritzker, I'm still not quite sure what that answer is. Fighting Trump like, what does that actually look like, short of go win elections? I think that as long as Democrats don't have that answer, they're still lost.
GOLDBERG: So, three things. One, he wouldn't send you cow dung. He would send you the head of your favorite cow, and it would be in your bed when you woke up that morning.
(LAUGHTER)
TODD: That's fair. That's fair.
GOLDBERG: Two, I think it's worth pointing out that I think Emanuel has a better shot than people think, because he is capable of something that I don't -- I can't think of another major Democrat of doing, which is punching left. Like, he can actually criticize the left in a -- in a way that it doesn't seem forced or made up. I mean, I guess Andrew Cuomo can, but he's got baggage. Thats not going to happen.
HUNT: There's a lot going on there. GOLDBERG: So but like Rahm Emanuel is like, seriously, just say, look,
this some of this stuff is use your old bosses, right? Some of this is just the brain dead politics of the past. We got to move beyond it, and he can sell that.
And third, to back up Kristen's point. Donald Trump has moved to the left on issue after issue after issue. He has moved the Democratic -- the Republican Party to basically you know, very close to the sort of Bernie Sanders style approach to economics. And no one cares because he's strong like bull, right?
TODD: Here's what needs to happen, a fight inside the party. Like I'm somebody because, you know, in the last the last two times Democrats successfully elected a president. What happened in the four years previous, there was actually a huge fight.
HUNT: Nobody was anointed.
TODD: That's right. Jesse Jackson and Bill Clinton, you know, DLC, DNC. They had a real fight. Bill Clinton won the fight and he took the party.
Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, they -- this fight wasn't over ideology. It was a little bit generational, a little bit of stylistic, a little bit. All that stuff. And what did it do? It strengthened the party.
Donald Trump had a fight in '16, and it's -- so, you know, this -- you don't want to anoint anybody. I think, look, you got to let the debate happen. And I think it will long term benefit the party.
BEGALA: Absolutely. They need a reckoning. My party needs a reckoning with the woke white left, who perceived rightly as far too extreme.
[16:55:00]
Most Democrats are moderate. Most Republicans today are really Trumpy, and that's a problem. They have to get back to the middle.
HUNT: Really fascinating.
All right. Coming up next, something completely different. Breaking news on that permanent decision that is no longer going to be permanent. We'll explain.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HUNT: All right. How's this for a headline? Baseball Hall of Famer Pete Rose. I'm sorry. What?
In an enormous decision announced just in the last few minutes, Major League Baseball has removed Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe Jackson from the league's permanently ineligible list. Both men, two of the sports' most famous players of all time, had been banned for gambling.
This presumably allows Rose and Jackson to be considered for induction into the Baseball Hall of Fame, something that had been ruled out as part of a settlement. The MLB commissioner says the punishment of banned individuals now ends with their deaths.
Jake Tapper is standing by for THE LEAD.
Jake, really historic decision, honestly.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Pete Rose was on the 1980 World Series champion, so that's all that needs to be said.
Thanks, Kasie. We'll see you back in THE ARENA tomorrow.
HUNT: Have a great show.
