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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt

Donald Trump Coming In To Make Case As To Why GOP Should Stick Together On Reauthorizing Tax Cut and Jobs Act; Musk To Dial Back Political Spending: "I've Done Enough"; Spokesperson: Biden's "Last Known PSA" Was In 2024. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired May 20, 2025 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[16:00:04]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Her message to her followers: let's normalize eating whole foods in public and not being apologetic about it.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: I feel like this is the issue that all Americans can get behind. Let us eat what we want, where we want.

KEILAR: Not a whole food, but I don't know. I could take like a six- foot sub with me on the flight.

SANCHEZ: No, a pizza. An entire pizza.

KEILAR: Yeah, that's a whole food because it's a whole pizza.

SANCHEZ: You share it with passengers. I'm sick of being frowned upon.

KEILAR: THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT starts now.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: It's the president versus the hardliners.

Let's step into THE ARENA.

Right now, Republicans prepare for a critical vote on a mega bill to advance Donald Trump's agenda. But holdouts remain despite a personal visit by the president to the Capitol.

Also this hour, Elon Musk claims he is going to spend a lot less money on politics. This after he spent more than a quarter of a billion dollars to help elect Trump and other Republicans. So what will it mean for the 2026 midterm elections?

Plus, shocking new revelations about President Joe Biden's physical and mental fitness. A new book revealing that some around him were concerned about his health as early as 2020.

(MUSIC)

BROWN: Hi, everyone. Welcome to THE ARENA. It is wonderful to have you with us on this Tuesday. Kasie Hunt is off. I'm Pamela Brown.

And right now, right here in Washington, we are just hours away from a key vote on Republicans so-called big beautiful bill to advance President Trump's sweeping agenda. The House Rules Committee is set to meet at 1:00 in the morning.

If that committee approves the bill, it could set up a full House vote as soon as Wednesday. And the president himself, making a rare trip to Capitol Hill this morning to personally lobby his party in a closed- door meeting.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: That was a meeting of love, let me tell you. That was love in that room. There was no shouting. There was. I think it was a meeting of love. There were a couple of things.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: A meeting of love.

But it sounds like it was some tough love, too. Sources in the room telling CNN that the president had a blunt message for his party stop negotiating and get it done. The president, sources say, was especially concerned about potential cuts to Medicaid, telling the room, quote, don't F around with the program.

A senior White House official saying that Trump made it clear he is losing his patience and that he expects every single Republican to fall in line. Though today, Trump denied that he was losing his patience.

But there are still holdouts. Here's Kentucky Representative Thomas Massie.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: When the White House says this will not raise the deficit, what do you say to them?

REP. THOMAS MASSIE (R-KY): Nobody says that.

RAJU: The White House said.

MASSIE: Who is saying that?

RAJU: The White House said that. They're saying it's deficit neutral.

MASSIE: Yeah, that's a joke. That's a joke.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Well, Massie is still refusing to support the bill and those comments right there earned him this personal attack from the president before the meeting even began.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: I don't think Thomas Massie understands government. I think he's a grandstander, frankly. He'll probably vote -- we don't even talk to him much. I think he should be voted out of office.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: The president's trip to Capitol Hill, underscoring just how high the stakes are. This is the first major piece of legislation during Trump's second term, and is likely to be the most important. That is certainly how the president views it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: If we do not accomplish this mission, every one of you, all the American people, are going to have the highest tax increase that you've ever had, and among the debt ceiling cliff that's approaching and all the other problems, this is the bill to do it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: My panel is here, along with CNN chief congressional correspondent Manu Raju,

Manu, did the president's visit to the Hill today sway any Republican holdouts?

RAJU: Not at the moment because, Pamela, there is a significant divide between some of the more moderate members and also some of the more conservative members. The speaker right now is furiously trying to cut a deal behind the scenes, trying to ease the concerns on both wings of his conference. And just moments ago, he met with members from the Northeast, particularly New York Republicans, who have raised concerns about how the state and local tax deductions are dealt with. They want to allow for taxpayers to pay a higher cap on the amount of so-called SALT that they can deduct from their taxes.

Right now, the proposal allows for $30,000 for married couples who make $400,000 or less to deduct from their taxes from those state and local taxes, but they want a much higher cap. But that has caused major concern among some of the more hardline members of the conference, worried that doing so would blow up the deficit under this proposal.

Now, just moments ago, Mike Lawler, one of those New York Republicans, just walked out of the speaker's office and told a group of reporters that they got a, quote, improved offer from the speaker. So perhaps moving to placate concerns from that wing of his conference. But nevertheless, there is major tension within the ranks, including from some supporters of this bill, who are calling on their members to fall in line.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIIFED MALE: If you're going to vote no because of whether the SALT, or one other provision, one other key point in there, you're going to vote no and just tank the whole legislation, I don't know, do you belong here?

[16:05:09]

I wonder how their voters would feel about that. Hey, Rep. Billy Bob, why are you -- you don't support the reconciliation? Well, there's one thing in there I didn't get my way. Well, I don't know how the -- how the -- their constituents are going to feel about that.

RAJU: Well, how are you going to vote?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know. I'll read it and see.

RAJU: Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you moving target.

RAJU: Are you still no?

REP. KEITH SELF (R-TX): We haven't made the corrections yet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: And that last congressman, Congressman Keith Self, saying we have not made the corrections yet when I asked him if he would support the bill.

And there were other hardliners as well who are concerned, Pamela, about the price tag, about the impact on the deficit or calling for deeper spending cuts, including on issues like Medicaid, and that is causing resistance from some of those more moderate members of protecting trying to protect both Medicaid and as well as green energy tax breaks that the hardliners are trying to phase out.

So that is what the speaker is contending with right now, because he can only afford to lose three Republican votes on a straight party line vote. He wants this on the floor as soon as Thursday. He wants a vote in the key rules committee, a very powerful committee where it needs to advance this bill by 1:00 a.m. tonight.

But it's unclear, Pamela, if they can get there or if they'll have to delay this and make this infighting within the ranks.

BROWN: One a.m.

All right. Manu Raju, thank you. You are certainly the busiest man in Washington today. I think I can say that with confidence.

All right. My panel now -- joins us now. CNN senior political commentator Van Jones, CNN special correspondent Jamie Gangel, CNN political commentator Xochitl Hinojosa, and former Republican congressman for Illinois, Rodney Davis.

All right, y'all, let's just start with what he was talking about there at the end, about the timeline here. I mean, there's a hearing at 1:00 a.m., right? Johnson wants this out by Thursday.

This is what Representative Andy Harris, the chair of the House Freedom Caucus, said today after the meeting with Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ANDY HARRIS (R-MD): The president, I don't think, convinced enough people that the bill is adequate the way it is. Obviously, he'd like it to be passed as soon as possible. I just don't think it can be passed this week.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: All right. So, Jamie, is this tight timeline laid out by speaker Johnson hurting or helping the president?

JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: I think we'll wait and see. But I think what we saw is today's show. Just how important this is for Trump, how high the stakes are. Because Trump could have picked up the phone, right? You've been lobbied, congressman, right? You pick up the phone.

The fact that he went up to the Hill and twisted arms in person, I don't care how much love he says there was, he started off by saying, if you don't vote the way I want, you know, you should be voted out of office.

There's one other thing that I think is notable about today, and that is it is one of the few times we have seen Republicans, a number of them, stand up to Trump.

BROWN: It is -- it is notable for sure. I mean, it's not just Rep. Massie who has been -- he's a pretty reliable no, it's others as well that are still coming out and saying, I'm not -- I'm not there yet. I'm not swayed.

Congressman, bring us into a dynamic like this. You have been in that situation before, right? Is what you see publicly what you see behind closed doors as well, in a meeting like what we saw today.

RODNEY DAVIS (R), FORMER ILLINOIS CONGRESSMAN: Well, it certainly brought back some memories in --

(LAUGHTER)

DAVIS: Those are meetings of love.

BROWN: And pure love. No tough love?

DAVIS: Part of those meetings of love. A little bit of tough love. But that's who Donald Trump is.

And Donald Trump and Speaker Johnson know that the best whip right now, Whip Emmer knows this, is Donald Trump coming in to make the case as to why Republicans should stick together on reauthorizing his major accomplishment from his first term, the Tax Cut and Jobs Act, the Trump tax cuts.

In the end, this is nothing new than what the Democrats went through with Build Back Better. You're going to see and we have seen with the speaker's races that Republicans have said, I'm not there yet. Eventually, they're going to get there. And one thing about the deadlines, Congress doesn't do anything without a deadline. So, they -- Speaker Johnson had to say, we got to get this done this week.

BROWN: That's just the way it works. I mean, you know, go ahead.

VAN JONES, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, there is another whip. And that whip is the American people who are very upset about the attack on health care.

BROWN: Yeah.

JONES: I'm talking to a lot of people. I'm not a health care person. Honestly, I do clean energy. We talk about that stuff.

But the idea that Medicaid and Medicare are at risk has mobilized a lot of people who are not political at all, but who have a parent who have a cancer diagnosis and who are terrified that what's happening up here, this kind of frog marching forward of a Congress to do something to make Trump happy, is going to make a lot of other people sick and maybe even dead.

XOCHITL HINOJOSA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, not only that, but it's -- so it's 13 million Americans who could lose their health insurance. Theres a new study that came out this morning saying about 18 million children could lose free school lunch.

[16:10:00]

And so, this is going to have major impacts. You're not seeing this big, happy, loving meeting because vulnerable Republicans right now know that whatever they vote on, they're going to be held accountable in the midterm elections. And whatever comes out of the Senate is not going to be identical to this. So they're walking the plank, and they don't even know what the bill is going to end up being, right?

And so, I think that's the struggle that you're seeing the Republican Party right now is every everything is going up because of tariffs. And you have rising prices for Americans. You have Americans who are going to lose their health insurance. And now you have children who are going to be impacted. And how do they sell that to the American people come the midterm elections.

BROWN: And it's unclear. I mean, we don't have firm numbers from the CBO in terms of the exact number of children impacted and people, but it is expected to be in the millions of those who lose their health insurance as a result of this. And you hear Republicans say, well, this is about getting rid of you heard this from President Trump. This is about getting rid of waste, fraud and abuse.

But when this is actually in effect, assuming this bill passes, you have to wonder about the reality when that hits, when people are having to deal with more cumbersome paperwork or at risk of losing their health insurance, and how that could backfire. GANGEL: And there's the political reality of the Republicans have very

few seats right now. The Democrats want to take back the house. Will votes like this. And issues like this make the difference?

JONES: I think the other thing, too, is that the Republican Party is now kind of suffering from its success. It wanted to move to a more working-class base. It wanted to bring in more working families. Those working families can't afford some of the stuff that they're talking about.

And so, the old Republican Party, it was, you know, the country club crowd, maybe they could deal with this stuff. The new Republican Party, the base wants these bills come due. It's going -- it's going to be a problem for Republicans.

DAVIS: Now, one thing --

JONES: You see it differently?

DAVIS: Yeah, one thing to think about, though, Van, and you got to look at that new Republican base, the working class base that has overwhelmingly come to my party. You know what they're going to see? The overwhelming majority of them are going to see with inaction, with Republicans not doing what they said they were going to do. It's going to be the largest tax increase in American history that will go right to their pocketbooks.

Americans that I've spoken with at our tax roundtables around the country, small business owners, they want to see the tax provisions reauthorized.

BROWN: Let me just follow up on that, because and you heard it today from President Trump, too, sort of tout that this will be the largest tax increase. But a lot of this is a continuation of the tax cuts that Americans are already receiving. Of course, there's the addition of no taxes on overtime, and no taxes on tips.

But it does raise the question whether Republicans are sort of raising the expectations so much that if this passes, Americans are going to be seeing this huge tax relief in their -- in their pay cuts.

DAVIS: Only in Washington could keeping the status quo of low tax rates, instead of going to higher tax rates and raising taxes on every American family, be seen as a bad thing. Republicans, members of Congress, Democrats, it's their job to go talk about the votes that they take.

And I appreciated, you know, you talked about the process in the house. Theres a long way to go. There is a long way to go. But as a member of the House, we always have to vote on a package that was never going to be the same when it comes back from the Senate. And in the end, what people remember, they remember when you fail, like health care in 2017 and they remember the final bill. This is very this is a very first step in the process. But the process has to play out. HINOJOSA: Yeah, I think if Democrats message it well, that you're

going to have another situation like you did when everybody walked the plank on an ACA repeal, everyone wanted to do away with the ACA. Guess what happens? Democrats won.

And if you do what you're doing again, raise prices and take away health care, you're going to have a similar situation.

BROWN: All right. Everyone, stick around. More to discuss.

Up next, the new comment today from Elon Musk. The big change he says he's making and how it could impact American elections.

Plus, the Pentagon announcing a new investigation in the U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan. We're going to talk with the top Democrat on the foreign relations committee, Senator Jeanne Shaheen.

(COIMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:18:30]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELON MUSK, TECH BILLIONAIRE: I think. In terms of political spending, I'm going to do a lot less in the future.

MODERATOR: And why is that?

MUSK: I think I've done enough.

MODERATOR: Is it -- is it because of blowback?

MUSK: Well, if I see a reason to political spending in the future, I will do it. I do not currently see a reason.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Well, there you go. The world's richest man and adviser to the president announcing he will be dialing it back on campaign spending. Elon Musk spent $290 million in the 2024 election. And keep in mind, he did not endorse Donald Trump until after the assassination attempt in July.

And it comes after Tesla has had a rocky few months, to say the least. Its net income dropped 71 percent from the year before. Musk has admitted his political involvement, particularly with DOGE, was impacting his companies.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARRY KUDLOW, FBN HOST: Running your other businesses.

MUSK: With great difficulty. Yeah, I mean --

KUDLOW: But there's no turning back you're saying?

MUSK: I'm just here trying to make government more efficient.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: He was also becoming a political liability. A poll from ABC and "The Washington Post" found his disapproval rating growing.

So, let's discuss this. My panel is back with me.

[16:20:00]

Xochitl, first to you, what do you -- why do you think he made this announcement now? And it was interesting because he sort of said it, that he had to be prodded into explaining his rationale behind it.

HINOJOSA: Well, it seems like a business. You know, this is what -- this is what he's doing. He committed to the -- in the same interview, he committed to being the CEO of Tesla moving forward. There had been talks about him potentially stepping down before.

Then, he is therefore he had to commit to. Maybe I'll back off on political spending. What I heard in Wisconsin from a lot of people is that his involvement there didn't actually help. It hurt the candidate there.

And so, I think that you probably have a lot of frontliners right now, Republican frontliners who are saying, wait a minute, maybe I'll take your money. No, please don't campaign here. The last thing they want is ads running in these states saying so-and-so is funded by Elon Musk. Elon Musk is pouring money into this state.

That doesn't help any Republican at this point. So, if you're Elon Musk, you're focused on making money. You're focused on your businesses, and you're just taking a step back because you do not want to be in the fray.

BROWN: You mentioned the special election in Wisconsin. I want to play some -- some of the voter sound from that election about Elon Musk.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Does Mr. Musk have an effect on your vote?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A lot of people are really hostile and like, oh, my gosh, he's buying the election and this should be illegal, and it probably should be illegal to offer people money to vote a certain way.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Maybe he should be taking care of his own business instead of everybody else's.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So, Van, you know, at one point, the Democrat strategy was to make Musk the focus, right? What is the Democrat strategy if he does indeed step back?

JONES: Well, I mean, I don't think that he's going to fade.

Look, Elon Musk is determined. He's not like a normal businessperson. He thinks that humanity has to become transhuman and get to Mars. He's not joking. He really believes that.

And so he's trying to drill holes in monkeys heads and put computers in there and all kind of stuff. And if he thinks that the United States government is going to get in the way of his grand transhuman Moon, Mars mission, he will get back involved.

And I won't be too sad if he does, because this is weird stuff, man. You send a bunch of kids into the federal government with laptops to steal all the data and do all kind of weird stuff and lay off all kind of people in east Tennessee. You know, women who used to help people with special needs can't help them because Elon Musk doesn't want you.

He is a gold mine for us. He's a platinum mine for us. We ain't going to let him go. If he wants to close up -- if he gives one penny to anybody, we're running an ad. We are running an ad. We're running an ad.

BROWN: What do you think, Congressman?

DAVIS: Look, Elon's a private citizen. He has a right to participate in the political process.

JONES: Yes, sir.

DAVIS: As every American does. You know, I clearly can't spend my political donations at the level that Elon does. Van may be able to keep up with Elon. But --

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: What are Republicans going to do since he bankrolled so much of the last election?

DAVIS: Well, if they were banking on 200 million plus coming from Elon, they're going to have to make it up somewhere else. But this is nothing new. Theres always kind of a pariah donor that the other side goes after.

I mean, the Republicans, we've gone after George Soros and Michael Bloomberg for many election cycles, and Elon is going to be the -- he's going to be the one the donor of the of the cycle this time.

BROWN: It is so interesting too, when you think of, you know, he came to support President Trump after the assassination attempt. But the impact of Trump's policies on his businesses, when you look at tariffs and the EV credits and his big, beautiful bill, this is what Trump said on the campaign trail last year about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: And I'm for electric cars. I have to be, you know, because Elon endorsed me very strongly. Elon. So, I have no choice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Now he wants to end that EV tax credit. What do you think, Jamie, about their relationship?

GANGEL: Two things. I agree with Van. Color me skeptical that he is going away.

BROWN: He kept the door open, that's for sure.

GANGEL: Absolutely. If there were long pauses in between, and there is no question that. Look, there are a lot of federal workers who hope that he goes away forever. But he was a heat shield for Donald Trump.

But it not only hurt his business, it did hurt Republicans. They used speed as a weapon. DOGE was not popular. The notion that veterans, NIH, you know, there was nothing thoughtful about all of those cuts. They went in very quickly with no transparency.

And I think that he -- yes, he's gone to take care of his businesses. I think Donald Trump also didn't want him around anymore.

BROWN: Do you think that he did -- go ahead.

HINOJOSA: Yeah. No, I was going to agree. I think that while he served as a shield, he was there. All these bad headlines for Trump that ultimately hurt Trump. And whenever you play the poll or you show the poll earlier showing Elon Musk's approval rating, you have to wonder -- well, Donald Trump looks at that stuff.

[16:25:06]

He does not like it when someone in his cabinet is causing him problems.

And so, I think that's what you saw. And that's why he sort of took a step aside, is focusing on his own thing. We'll need a little bit of a break. Unclear whether he'll come back.

BROWN: Do you think he did any lasting damage?

DAVIS: Elon Musk?

BROWN: Uh-huh.

DAVIS: It depends on -- it depends in about 6 or 7 months when we start to see primary season come. If he's still an issue in campaign ads. And then there will be long-term damage.

But I got to disagree with my panelists here. I don't think Donald Trump pushed him out, because if Donald Trump pushed him out, he would have bragged about it.

HINOJOSA: Not with Elon Musk. I don't think someone with that much power and money, he would have actually bragged. GANGEL: I'm going to say one word, money. Elon Musk had never-ending money. This was -- this was not a divorce where they fought over the silverware. This was a gentlemanly separation for the moment.

BROWN: And I -- and I do think Donald Trump, regardless, does respect him because he is a successful businessman.

GANGEL: Absolutely.

JONES: The most successful businessperson in the history of the world. And for me, what's sad about it is six months ago, ten months ago, my sons were Elon Musk fanatics. I mean, this is like, you know, the guy who's building, you know, electric cars and rocket ships and all kind of cool stuff.

And he's -- the young people, he's not cool anymore. Elon Musk is not cool. So, if Elon decides to go back to what he's great at, which is really transforming industries and not wrecking governments, I think he's going to go back to being beloved. Until then, he'll be a punching bag.

BROWN: All right, on that note, we're going to go to the break here.

Up next, Secretary of State Marco Rubio facing some tough questions on Capitol Hill today, prompting at least one senator to today say they regret voting to confirm him. We're going to talk with one of the lawmakers who questioned him, the top Democrat on the Foreign Relations Committee.

We'll be back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:31:21]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. RALPH NORMAN (R-SC): Best speech, one of the best speeches I've ever heard. He's a great closer.

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Are you ready to vote for this in rules now?

NORMAN: It'll be up. It'll be up at 1:00 a.m. tomorrow and probably have a lot -- a lot of amendments. We'll see.

FOX: So, you have not decided if you're going to back this --

NORMAN: I'm going to read it. I'm going to read it. But all I'm saying is what a great job. He did a fantastic job.

FOX: Do you feel like --

BROWN: Conservative lawmakers showering President Trump with praise after meeting with him today over his, quote, one big, beautiful bill? Even still, it seems that the president did not sufficiently convince a number of key Republicans. The conference still divided over several sticking points, including Medicaid work requirements, energy cuts, and state and local tax deductions.

Joining us now to discuss is Democratic Senator Jeanne Shaheen of New Hampshire. She is the top Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

Senator, thank you so much for joining the show today.

So, I want to start with what we were just discussing with President Trump. And you heard him try to frame the discussion over the bill about Democrats saying Democrats that are voting for a massive tax hike for Americans if they vote against the bill. What do you say to that?

SEN. JEANNE SHAHEEN (D-NH): Well, it's clear that the Republicans in the House care more about what Donald Trump thinks than they care about what their constituents think, because constituents in most of this country don't want to see massive cuts to the Medicaid program, health care that so many Americans rely on, whether it's for nursing home care or people with disabilities, people who get their health insurance through the Medicaid program. One in seven people in New Hampshire get health care through Medicaid.

And, they are very worried about what's going to happen if this massive bill that the house is working on passes.

BROWN: And, of course, the Republicans argue this is about, you know, adding work requirements and eligibility. They say that this is about making Medicaid more efficient for the most vulnerable. Go ahead. What do you say to that?

SHAHEEN: When New Hampshire adopted our Granite Advantage Program, which is the Medicaid enhancement health insurance program, they tried to put in work requirements, and they were so awful that the legislature, the Republican legislature, repealed them a year later because they didn't work. And what they're actually trying to do with those work requirements and other changes is to reduce the number of people on Medicaid so they can save money.

And what they want to -- want to, what they want to do with the money that they're saving by cutting Medicaid, by cutting food benefits from the snap program, is to provide a huge tax cut to the wealthiest Americans. Seventy percent of the benefits from the tax cuts are going to go to the wealthiest 1 percent in this country.

BROWN: Do you think, then, if this bill passes, it could benefit the Democrats based on what you argue there?

SHAHEEN: Well, I'm not -- I'm worried about it hurting my constituents. Thats what we ought to be worried about. We ought to be worried about what is important for the people of this country. And I can tell you that the people in New Hampshire are very worried about what the impact of massive cuts to the Medicaid program, massive cuts to food programs are going to mean for them. BROWN: I want to turn to another topic, because today you questioned

Secretary of State Marco Rubio on the Hill, where he told you that threatening to impose additional sanctions on Russia could cause Moscow to stop talking about ending the war in Ukraine. Do you think Secretary Rubio and President Trump are being played by Putin?

SHAHEEN: I do, absolutely.

[16:35:00]

And I said that to Secretary Rubio, and we heard it again. What the outcome of this phone call between President Trump and Vladimir Putin yesterday was that now Putin is going to bring in a sheet that outlines what they want to see to end the war in Ukraine, to get them to the table. Well, he's just playing for time because he thinks the longer he can delay that we're going to get disinterested, that we're going to not want to continue to support Ukraine in this fight.

But what he doesn't understand is that the president and this administration says the biggest threat to America is China and China and President Xi are watching what the outcome of this war in Ukraine is. And if we are not tough in Ukraine, if we are not tough on Putin, then he knows that we're not going to be tough on him when he goes after Taiwan. And so that's a real problem.

BROWN: So, what do you think the Trump administration needs to do right now?

SHAHEEN: I think they need to endorse the sanctions bill that we have in the Senate that has 80 co-sponsors, equally divided between Republicans and Democrats and Senator Graham and Blumenthal, who have a bill that would put in place secondary sanctions on those people who do business with Russia, who are helping to keep Russia's economy going despite the sanctions that have been placed in the U.S. on Russia's economy.

BROWN: You voted to confirm Secretary Rubio. Your colleagues, Senator Chris Van Hollen and Chris Murphy, have both said now that they regret voting for him.

Let's listen to Senator Van Hollen from earlier.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-MD): You have shown your words and your actions what the answer is. And I have to tell you directly and personally, that I regret voting for you for secretary of state. I yield back.

MARCO RUBIO, SECRETARY OF STATE: May I respond?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You may, sir.

RUBIO: Well, first of all, your regret for voting for me confirms I'm doing a good job.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Senator, do you regret voting for him?

SHAHEEN: No. There are differences of opinion on the committee. I respect everybody's view. I voted for him. I have a great deal of respect for his intellect, for his history. I'm disappointed that many of the things that he said he would support when he was at our confirmation hearing he has not continued to support.

But I'm going to continue to communicate with him, and we're going to continue to push to reinstate foreign assistance programs that are so important to how the world views the United States and to our own national security.

BROWN: So, just to be clear, given the chance to vote today, would you still have the same vote for him?

SHAHEEN: I'm not going to speculate on what happens today because we have -- that's not the way we voted. I voted for Marco Rubio and I'm going to continue to work with him in his role as secretary of state and in my role as the top Democrat on the Foreign Relations Committee.

BROWN: You told CNN previously that President Biden should not have run for reelection. Do you think that there was a willful cover up of Biden's health by the people around him now that we're learning all these new details in this book by my colleague Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson?

SHAHEEN: I have not read Jake Tapper's book, I can tell you that I had in the interactions that I had with President Biden, which were rare in the last year that he was in office, that I didn't notice significant decline.

My concern, as I have said, was that it would have been important to have an opportunity for a younger generation of Democrats to debate the issues that are affecting this country, to talk about their visions for the future, what we need to do to ensure that we have a strong economy and good jobs for people, that they can get their health care, that we have a strong foreign policy. And sadly, that didn't happen because of the way the campaign played out.

BROWN: All right, Senator, thank you so much for your time today. We appreciate it.

SHAHEEN: Thank you.

BROWN: And up next, more on the new revelations of the book on President Biden. We were just talking about that. Our panel is here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:43:43]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. ANDY BESHEAR (D), KENTUCKY: When you're the governor of Kentucky, you end up seeing the president one or two times a year. So I wasn't able to observe the things that other people are talking about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: You're hearing that a lot now from Democratic governors, senators, it is the latest landmine for Democratic presidential hopefuls. What did you know about President Biden? And when?

Kentucky Governor Andy Beshear, doing what other Democratic governors have done, saying that he was focused on his state? Thats what he told me today.

Meanwhile, in the Peach State, former Atlanta Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms, who for a time was mentioned as a contender for Biden's running mate in 2020, announced her candidacy for Georgia governor.

And it all comes as our colleague Jake Tapper and "Axios'" Alex Thompsons book "Original Sin" finally hit bookshelves.

My panel is back with me now.

Van, I just want to get your take, just overall.

JONES: Look, I am -- I love Joe Biden. I don't like Joe Biden. I love Joe Biden. He's a big part of the reason I got a chance to work in the Obama White House. I think if he had stopped with his first term, he might have been on Mount Rushmore. I love everything he did.

But you can't be mad at Jake for telling the truth. A lot of people are mad now because the facts are coming out, and I'm not mad at all.

[16:45:00]

I'm mad at Mike Donilon. I'm mad at the people who are around Joe Biden and who kept him from a lot of us, so we didn't know what was going on.

But I'm proud of Jake Tapper. I think everybody should read the book before you start complaining about it. This book is a bombshell and it names names and it is -- it is credible. And we as a Democratic Party have to look in the mirror and say, if we want to hold everybody else to high standards on every issue we care about, we've got to do the same thing.

BROWN: Yeah, it goes to the old saying, you know, don't shoot the messenger. And Jake Tapper, our colleague, and Alex Thompson did some intrepid reporting here. It was important reporting.

And as they have noted repeatedly, they weren't getting phone calls returned, texts returned until after the election ended. That is when more people were opening up. And we are just getting some more news coming in. Some breaking news related to former President Biden and his health.

So, I want to bring in CNN's Arlette Saenz with that.

What are you learning, Arlette? ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pamela, a Biden spokesperson

tells me that former President Joe Biden, his last known PSA, which is a screening that could be used for prostate cancer, was conducted in 2014 and that he was never diagnosed with cancer before the Friday diagnosis that was handed from his doctors.

Now, to give you a bit of a background, the PSA test checks the blood for levels of a protein called prostate specific antigen that might indicate the presence of prostate cancer. Many medical associations say that whether to have this test is something that's usually determined between a patient and their doctor, and independent experts who have reviewed some screening studies for the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force recommend against screening for prostate cancer for men 70 and older.

So, in 2014, Biden would have been in that 71, 72 age range. Now, this new disclosure from Biden's spokesperson comes as a former as President Donald Trump and some of his allies have questioned why Bidens cancer diagnosis was not revealed earlier. On Friday, Biden received that diagnosis of prostate cancer, which has spread to his bones. His office disclosed that on Sunday, and now they are providing a bit more background into what some of his previous screening has been like, saying that that PSA, the last known PSA, was in 2014 when he was vice president.

BROWN: All right. Arlette, stay with us. I want to discuss this with our panel.

Jamie Gangel, we're getting this news and it was 2014, the last time he was tested. And yes, there are these medical guidelines recommended against testing age 70 it up. But he was president of the United States. I find it very surprising.

GANGEL: I think a lot of people feel the same way about it. What Arlette said is very important. First of all, it is a discussion you have with your doctor. People can make different choices.

But also, he was president of the United States. They test you for a hangnail. I mean, this is not a hard test to do.

In fairness, one of the reasons that they suggest not testing past 70 is because there are a lot of false positives, and then there can be complications from procedures after that. But he was going into -- he was running for president again. He was in his 80s.

I think the thing that we've learned about presidents is transparency is important, whatever the issue is. And it would have been helpful to know this.

BROWN: Yeah, because even when the announcement was made, I mean, there had already been sort of a loss of trust, right?

GANGEL: A hundred percent. And the timing of this is hard because with Jake and Alex's book coming out, which is an excellent book, let's remember, Democrats did not want Joe Biden -- most Democrats did not want him to run again. They thought he was going to be transitional. Now, you know, everyone saw for their own eyes at the debate. I still

have text messages of people texting me in real time. This is so painful I can't watch it.

So, I think that this once again leaves people asking, what didn't we know that we should have known?

BROWN: And how do Democrats regain trust? Because I remember after the debate, every Democrat I had on, I was asking about this, and there were still many who came on to say that was just a blip on the radar. Don't pay attention to that. He is still up for, you know, up for the task.

GANGEL: Yeah. And how to -- how do Democrats regain trust after this?

HINOJOSA: Well, I think it's through transparency. You're exactly right. I think there are two important conversations that we need to be having right now.

Obviously, Jake and Alex's book brings up the age of your candidates, and I can guarantee you that we will have a double digit primary with and, you know, with debates and lots of -- lots of attention on the Democratic Party.

[16:50:04]

And I think the best person will rise to the top.

The other debate we should be having is what kind of medical tests should our president be having and when. And I do think that that is something missing from the conversation. Theres a lot happening from the White House right now being thrown at Joe Biden about when he knew why. This is exactly why the president, office, former president's office had to put something out.

But the question we should be having is, should every president over the age of 70 be getting a PSA test? Should Donald Trump be getting a PSA test?

These are the questions that we should be asking of our elected leaders, but of our president of the United States, he has the best health care. Our presidents have the best health care in America. They have access to the best doctors in America. They should be -- and they are leading our country. They should be getting tests and being transparent with the public on exactly what their health looks like.

And I think that this jake tappers book and now this diagnosis raises important questions about what we should be asking them to do moving forward.

BROWN: And by the way, I think we're trying to get a doctor. We don't know when the cancer started, developed. We know that when the announcement was made last week, it was announced that it was an aggressive form that went to the bone. But we don't know when it started. But now, we're learning that the PSA test he had was in 2014. The PSA

test gives you a level to indicate whether you could potentially have prostate cancer.

How are you viewing all of this, congressman?

DAVIS: Well, look, my wife's a cancer survivor of almost 30 years. She was diagnosed with colon cancer.

I feel for the Biden family for having to go through this. It's terrible at any age.

But I agree with the panel that it's the lack of transparency that has long extended consequences. And I believe that lack of transparency and all the Baghdad Bobs that came on your network and others that said, oh, that's just a blip. He's great. He's doing backflips when he's not on the debate stage. It led to the lack of trust in Kamala Harris's messaging.

And in many -- maybe people on this panel were calling Joe Biden a patriot when he stepped aside or was knifed in the back and pushed out of the way. But the bottom line is Democrats are the ones that are feeling the brunt of the blame on what has happened. And I've been around many of my former colleagues in public settings, and they're talking about Democrats don't know how to message. Democrats are not unified.

They're going to have to be able to figure out how to get beyond this. And in the end, when it comes to this story about him not having a PSA test since 2014, I got to tell you, you're the president of the United States. Are you telling me his doctor didn't run every single blood test? I --

JONES: I think -- I think that the -- I think this is a part of the reckoning that has to happen within a party when you lose this badly and people say, oh, wasn't that bad, it feels bad. We lost the House, the Senate, the popular vote, the White House. You got to look in the mirror.

I think by the time we get to the midterms, by the time we get to the next election, this will be behind us. But I think there's a lesson here. And it's not just for Democrats.

There's a psychology of power. When people get power, this kind of emperor's new clothes dynamic. You see it on the Republican side as well. I mean, people act like Donald Trump is literally, literally the second coming of Jesus Christ. He clearly is not, okay? But you wouldn't know it. Listen to some of these cable news people.

So there's something about the psychology of power, the dynamic of power. The emperor's new clothes in real time, played out in our party with Biden, is playing out right now with Trump. And that's why you have a democracy to bring people back down to Earth.

They got to face an election. They got to deal with courts. They got to deal with reality. And at some point it catches up to everybody, not just Joe Biden.

BROWN: Tower of power, right.

JONES: Yeah, the tower of power.

GANGEL: Just add one thing. It needs to be on both sides. And it's not just about PSA testing. It's about cognitive testing, too. These things need to be done on both sides with as much transparency.

JONES: Especially as people are living -- especially as people are living longer. Like it is not.

BROWN: Changing guidelines.

JONES: People are literally going to be living into their 90s.

BROWN: And it's not just presidents. It's, you know, elected officials and Congress and so forth. I mean, you know, I think that this is raising a larger discussion for good reason, right?

On that note, let's bring in a doctor who actually knows what they're talking about with PSA and, and all of this and what it actually means.

Doctor Reiner, you are our CNN medical analyst. Help us put this into context that President Biden's last known PSA was in 2014.

Does that surprise you?

DR. JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST (via telephone): No, it actually doesn't surprise me at all. In 2014, President Biden would have been either 70 or 71, and the United States Preventative Services Task Force, this group that reviews all kinds of preventative strategies that are incorporated into medicine, wrote a guideline that that basically stated that routine PSA testing in men over the age of 70 was not indicated.

[16:55:15]

And, just for complete transparency, I note President Biden's physician quite well, Dr. Kevin O'Connor. And he's a very by-the-book kind of person. And it's my sense that that's exactly what he was doing. He was following the guidelines.

One thing I'll say about one of the prior panelists who mentioned, why aren't they just testing him for everything? One of the traps that VIPs can fall into is what I call bad VIP medicine, which is when nonstandard, testing or therapeutics are offered to patients because they're famous or important.

And what I said to my patients in the past is the best thing that I can do is treat them like they were just, you know, a regular person on the street, not treat them like they were special. Because what happened -- and the reason why PSA testing is not routinely done in older men is that large population based clinical trials have not shown that it reduces mortality. And but what it does often is drive unnecessary testing.

HUNT: So let me just follow up with that, because I'm just channeling, I think, what a lot of our viewers might be wondering right now. I mean, I take your point about, you know, treating people like even if they're a VIP, like a regular person. But, I mean, he's not just a VIP. He was president of the United States.

And I understand that Dr. O'Connor was following the guidelines, but I mean, do you follow do you just stick to the book on the guidelines when you're dealing with someone who's running the country, who was then running for reelection?

REINER: You practice, you practice the best. You look as a physician for anybody, and particularly as a physician for a public figure, your first requirement, your first responsibility is to do what's right for the patient and to and to treat them like a patient. Don't do testing simply because somebody else expects you to do testing, don't, you know, provide a therapy because you think it might look good for the public? Do what you think is right, right for the patient.

And again, PSA testing is not routinely used in older men because it doesn't -- it doesn't change the outcome for them. So, you know, I hear -- I hear what people think. But he wasn't tested because it wasn't indicated. And he wasn't tested apparently because, you know, until recently the patient didn't have symptoms that would warrant testing.

So I get it but I -- but this is -- this this is where we are.

BROWN: So then --

REINER: I mean, not -- not everything, not every not everything is a conspiracy.

BROWN: No. And I understand your point there for certain. But now this information is coming out and there's a big question of when this started, right? We know it's an aggressive form that it spread to his bone.

And so, you just wait until someone who's like the president of the United States shows symptoms until you test them in a situation like this?

REINER: You know, in in older men, yeah, I think I think what.

BROWN: What about preventative care though? All the other preventative care that that a doctor does?

REINER: No, but this is -- no, this is -- but this is the specific -- this is the specific recommendation for this particular disease.

But one other point I do want to make and I think this is really illustrative of the -- of what can happen when we elect very old people to office, when you're 80 years old, stuff happens. And it doesn't matter how you look one day, but 80 year olds get heart attacks and they get strokes and they get prostate cancer. And it happens more frequently the older we get.

And this is a reason why I've always felt super strongly about when we're vetting candidates running for office, we should expect, as the voting public, the people who are putting these people in office, we should expect complete transparency.

BROWN: Yes.

REINER: We should expect that the medications listed on these disclosures are the complete list.

BROWN: Right.

REINER: Not the not the partial list.

BROWN: Right. Let me just jump in. Let me just jump in because we're running out of time. But I mean, I understand these are recommendations, but over time recommendations have changed. I think about mammograms now when you're 40, you're supposed to get a mammogram. The age used to be different.

Do you think it should change, particularly for presidents of the United States? So Donald Trump get it, a PSA test?

REINER: Well, so Donald Trump, so -- so Donald Trump reported a PSA. He reported a PSA of 0.1, which is abnormally low for a man of his age. It's shockingly low. And the only two circumstances where you would expect to see a 79 year old man with a PSA of 0.1 is whether they've had their prostate removed, or whether they're taking a medication that can lower it. And he was on a medication that can lower it. Although it was not disclosed on his current medical report.

BROWN: All right. Dr. Reiner, thank you so much. We really appreciate your time. And for that analysis.

"THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER" starts right now.