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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt
Just In: GOP Senators Signal Trump Tax Bill Will Need Changes In Order To Pass Senate; Trump Admin Bars Harvard From Enrolling International Students; Suspect In Shooting Of Israeli Embassy Staffers Charged With Murder; Official: Trump & Xi Have Not Spoken After Tariff Rollback. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired May 22, 2025 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: All right. What a supermom, Julia -- no, that was Olivia. Julia is her co-anchor. Olivia Jaquith. Unbelievable.
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Incredible. But also --
KEILAR: The hospital is boring to sit around in, though.
SANCHEZ: Yeah, but also, like, you're going to stay a three -- we do a three-hour show. It's tough. I'm not pregnant, and I constantly am thinking about running away.
KEILAR: Fact check, true. He's not pregnant.
And THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT starts right now.
PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: It's the House versus the Senate.
Let's head into THE ARENA.
Right now, a big win appearing temporary. The Senate majority leader now telling CNN that senators are going to write their own bill after the House narrowly passed the president's tax plan this morning.
Also this hour, breaking news in the White House's fight with Harvard. The new escalation the administration is taking this afternoon directly impacting students.
Plus, the new report out by the government recommending sweeping changes to national health policy, including on childhood vaccines. Processed foods and chemicals.
(MUSIC)
BROWN: Hi, everyone. Welcome to THE ARENA. It is wonderful to have you with us on this Wednesday -- Thursday, actually. Kasie Hunt is off. I'm pamela brown.
A major win in the House setting up a major fight in the Senate. President Trump's so-called "Big, Beautiful Bill" is already getting a chilly reception from Senate Republicans. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. KEVIN CRAMER (R-ND): Hopefully, we can find some more opportunities for savings and maybe even some opportunities for better tax policy.
SEN. RICK SCOTT (R-FL): My goal is to balance the budget so we don't have to raise the debt ceiling.
SEN. MIKE ROUNDS (R-SD): The bottom line, it's going to take 51 votes in the Senate. It's going to take basically 218 to pass it in the House. It will take coordination between the House and the Senate to get it done. We're a long ways from the finish line.
SEN. JOHN HOEVEN (R-ND): Remember, at the end of the day, we've got to get 50 plus one. We've got to pass it. So there'll be some changes in some of these areas. But we're going to find savings for sure.
SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): Just take a look at how long it's taken the House to get to this point, and there's still a lot of decisions to be made. So I think we're talking about weeks or months.
(END VIDEO CLIPS)
BROWN: Majority Leader John Thune telling CNN that Senate Republicans are going to write their own bill. Thats a process that could take weeks or more, and it will be the first big test of Thune's ability to lead the Republicans in the upper chamber.
The question, will he be able to appease the hardliners without losing the support of the moderates? It's always that balancing act. The bill passed by the house would extend the 2017 Trump tax cuts and provide billions in new funding for the military, immigration enforcement and Trump's Golden Dome missile defense plan. It would also slash more than $1.5 trillion in federal spending on Medicaid, food stamps, clean energy and other programs.
And even with those cuts, the House bill is projected to add $3.8 trillion to the deficit. And that's already being felt in the economy. U.S. government bond yields are on the rise. That is a sign that investors think that U.S. debt is an increasingly risky bet.
And on Friday, Moody's downgraded U.S. debt's previously perfect rating. All of that driving mortgage rates to their highest level in three months.
This morning, here's Federal Reserve Governor Christopher Waller on how this bill could impact the markets and the U.S. economy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTOPHER WALLER, FEDERAL RESERVE GOVERNOR: Markets are watching the fiscal policy that's being -- the bill being put through the House and the Senate. And they have some concerns about whether it's going to be reducing the deficit. I mean, we ran $2 trillion deficits the last few years. This is just not sustainable. And so, the markets are looking for a little more fiscal discipline.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: All right. My panel joins me now. Lulu Garcia-Navarro, CNN contributor and "New York Times" journalist; Chuck Todd, host of "The Chuck Toddcast"; Representative Glenn Ivey, Democrat of Maryland; and Scott Walker, former Republican governor of Wisconsin.
All right, Governor, to go to you first. I want to talk about the bill. It barely passed the House, right, because of opposition from hardline conservatives. And, you know, they have been warning that that, you know, they wanted more cuts. They finally got on board. Now, there's a question of what's going to happen in the Senate.
You have Thune saying they're going to basically write their own bill.
I want to listen to what Senator Cramer had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CRAMER: It's rich coming from the Freedom Caucus who is supposed to be fiscal conservatives and end up with not that conservative a bill to lecture us. What we're going to do is we're going to pass a bill that can get 50 votes. And whatever other numbers come along with that. That magic number is 50. In other words, a vote that can actually pass the bill.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So there you go. Can the Senate make enough changes to get 50 votes without crossing the Freedom Caucus' red lines?
SCOTT WALKER (R), FORMER WISCONSIN GOVERNOR: Yeah, I think so. I mean, we've had this debate for quite some time. The Senate, whether it's Democrat or Republican, the Senate is very different than the House. And they have their own framework. We see that at the state level. When I was governor as well, between the two chambers. But I think in the end, people got to remember, if there isn't something passed, working families are going to face about a $2,500 tax increase starting next year, $4 billion of tax increases if things phase out without replacement.
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So I think the core elements, the tax cuts being extended, things like no tax and tips, no tax and overtime, core things about the border and some of the reforms out there. People talk about Medicaid cuts. Let's be clear - they're not cuts. They're focused on things like work requirements, an 80 hour a month work requirement for people getting things like food stamps or Medicaid assistance.
That's something we did in Wisconsin. And it works, actually gets people back to work or gets them help by getting back into the community.
BROWN: Congressman. REP. GLENN IVEY (D-MD): No, they're cuts, they're cuts to Medicaid
and they're dramatic cuts that could lead to the shutdowns of hospitals for example, especially in red districts, rural areas where you could end up with healthcare deserts if this goes through. And that's why you've heard some of the concerns from state and local legislators in some of the red states. So, I think it's -- there's a lot of people that start getting cold feet on the Republican side of the aisle about this. We talk about the Freedom Caucus, and, you know, Tom Massie and others, I think, held the line because it is $4 trillion potentially, in additional debt that it's going to create.
But there's a lot of tough, you know, cutting back on SNAP, cutting back on school lunches, you know, for school children, Medicaid access for the elderly. Theres a lot of tough things to swallow in here that can be used when these elections come up in 2026 to beat Republicans over the head with. And I think they're starting to realize that.
BROWN: And Republicans claim that the most vulnerable will not be impacted. But you even have Senator Josh Hawley, who is saying he doesn't want Medicaid touched. You have Rand Paul, you know, who has a lot of skepticism about this bill. This is going to be a big test for Majority Leader Thune.
CHUCK TODD, HOST, "THE CHUCK TODDCAST": It is. But I'm sort of look, no, we saw it with Biden and the Democrats. Nobody -- no Democrat was going to be the one to kill the agenda, right? Joe Manchin came back to the table. Nobody on the Republican side is going to be the decisive vote to kill the bill.
This bill is going to pass. I -- Kevin Cramer is right. Theres a political question and then there's a fiscal question.
This is going to be a fiscal mess. Let's not pretend it's not, because they're going to do whatever it takes to get the 50 votes because nobody is going to not be that person. So, it's going to do it.
Now, the wild card here is the markets, okay? If that is the real wild card, and I do think Senate Republicans in particular and it's across -- this is not just moderates. And it's across the board here. They are sensitive to the bond market on this. And if this is a rough summer, if they do, if this gets priced in negatively, that could change things.
But I'm -- I'm one of those who said if I were watching this, you'd fast forward this part. You know the bill is going to be passed. You just don't know what it's going to look like because what does it take to pass? But they have to. Failure is impossible politically.
BROWN: President Trump has made clear what a priority this is. How do you see it?
LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yeah, I agree with you. I think it's going to pass. I don't think it's a question. I'm also tired of always the cliffhangers of are these things going to pass? And its like we have these discussions and lo and behold, they do. But what I will focus on is that this is like 1,100 pages of
legislation, which a lot of the members actually don't know what's in it. And this is now going --
TODD: Do they ever know what's in it?
GARCIA-NAVARRO: No, they don't, but this -- they don't. And I think actually people don't realize that, that this oftentimes is stuff that just gets written in a very haphazard fashion. And so, now, people go through it, they look at it, they see what's actually in there. And then kind of the business gets done in the Senate where they're kind of going through it with a fine-tooth comb.
And so, that's what that period is, where they're actually -- where there's going to be some tough negotiations. It is a test of Thune, but I think it's a test he's going to pass.
BROWN: Yeah, I think that's really important, too. I personally am more interested on the impact. How is this bill going to impact the everyday American, you know, who's watching this right now? It's hard to say, right, because it is going to the Senate and they're going to, as Thune said, write their own bill. We'll stay on top of that.
I want to go to another story that's developing out of the White House, and it's related to the administration's ongoing battle with Harvard.
CNN's Jeff Zeleny is live in the North Lawn.
This is going to impact a lot of students at Harvard, Jeff.
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Pamela, it certainly is at the moment. Of course, this is just the latest example of the ongoing escalation between the White House, the Trump administration and Harvard University. But this afternoon, the Trump administration, through Secretary of Homeland Security Kristi Noem, is telling Harvard that they can no longer enroll international students. The White House telling me just a few moments ago, enrolling foreign students is a privilege, it's not a right.
And so, Kristi Noem in her letter to Harvard, outlines what she says is an unsafe conditions on campus promoting antisemitic behavior and demonstrations. Of course, this is the ongoing -- the latest chapter in the ongoing fight, which has been about school funding, about curriculum. Now, it's about international students.
But Harvard is vowing to push back. They say that this is unlawful, and they say that they will challenge this in law.
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But, Pamela, what we're talking about here is about 27 percent of the student body at Harvard are international students. That was in this academic year, some 6,700 students or so. And the government right now is saying that all of these students must either leave Harvard and transfer to another institution or lose their legal status to study here in the U.S.
So, we will see where this goes. This is one more example of a case that will be fought out legally here. But it's just an escalation.
And Harvard, of course, has been one of the few institutions that has really fought back against the administration, against the Trump administration, largely because they can they have the largest endowment of any university. But a dramatic escalation of this ongoing fight here that leaves many students as they near the end of their semester here, a bit in uncertain terrain and a territory -- Pamela.
BROWN: They're certainly in limbo, those foreign students.
Jeff Zeleny, thank you so much.
Let's bring back the panel on this.
And, Congressman, I want to go to you because I believe you went to Harvard. Is that right?
IVEY: Harvard Law School, yeah.
BROWN: What's your reaction to this?
IVEY: It's silly and ridiculous and illegal I think in a couple of ways. One is, I don't think they have the authority to do this. I don't really see what the legal hook would be. And based on what Noem just said, I don't really hear a legal basis for that.
But in addition to that, this is a big existential piece from an economic standpoint for Harvard and many other institutions, too. So, they certainly have the incentive to fight this, you know, to last August dead, so to speak.
And also, you know, it's another ding on the soft power aspect, one of the really great things about Harvard having this huge, extensive international alumni network is that a lot of these people are in countries around the world, and they have relationships here in the United States. We have relationships with them, which work very well sometimes in some of these international disputes. And this is another example of the Trump administration burning that bridge needlessly.
BROWN: Governor, why would the best and the brightest in other parts of the world when it comes to study in the in the U.S., if something like this could happen?
WALKER: Well, one, I think they're going to continue to. We're still the beacon. We provide -- regardless of who the president is, we attract more legal immigrants than any other country in the world, about a million every year, four times more than the next closest country out there. So, I think we'll continue to be a beacon.
But let's be clear, particularly in light of what's happened here in the last 24 hours, I want Harvard and every other campus to be safe for Jewish students, as well as any other students, Christian, whatever faith tradition out there. So, I think it's really important to focus young Americas foundation. We see that with Jewish students, Christian students, conservative students overwhelmingly feel threatened in a lot of these campuses. So there needs to be a reckoning about that.
That said, I think there's going to have to be some significant changes here legally, just as we saw -- I remember in the first term as a group of governors in both parties got together. We were talking to the president at that time. He was talking about a Muslim ban on travel.
That was not the case. In the end, the actual language, the Department of Homeland Security talked about was targeted towards countries that under the prior administration, under President Obama, had been identified as not providing information. It wasn't a blanket. For example, Indonesia was free and able to bring people in, even though that's the largest Muslim population in the world.
So I think you're going to see some significant changes to make this anything close to this enforceable.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yeah. But at the end of the day, what they are doing is actually trying to make Harvard bend the knee. This is not about protecting Jewish students. And this is not about protecting, you know, international students from not being safe. This is about the federal government trying to impose its will on an independent institution, which Harvard is.
And it is the most prominent institution, not only in America, but in the world. And by targeting Harvard, they're sending a message to universities all across this country about what will be tolerated and what won't be in this administration.
TODD: And, you know, the dirty little secret is international students are full payers and tuition. And this is trust me, there's a lot of D.C. universities here that are watching this very closely because this -- this is a -- this is targeting Harvard financially.
Oh, and by the way, this is -- this becomes financially existential. And this ends up having a derivative impact in that the full international payers are who subsidize sometimes Americans who don't have the resources to go to Harvard that Harvard can take.
So, this is the balancing act that universities use. And a lot, particularly on the East Coast and on the two coasts, use the international students as a way to --
GARCIA-NAVARRO: And the federal government gives and gives these fees.
TODD: Right.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: To take away tax-exempt status.
TODD: So this is an attack financially, it feels like and this is -- I tend to agree with where you're going here, which is they're just trying to get him -- to get Harvard to have this conversation. BROWN: All right. Thank you all. Stick around. We have more to
discuss.
Up next, new details on a fatal shooting right here in Washington. The suspect about to appear in court to face charges in the deaths of two Israeli embassy staffers.
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Plus, inside that highly anticipated first report from the Make America Healthy Again Commission.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Well, soon, the man accused of killing two Israeli embassy staffers here in Washington, D.C., last night will appear before a federal judge. The suspect has been identified as 31-year-old Elias Rodriguez from Chicago, and he is accused of shooting Sarah Milgrim and Yaron Lischinsky. The couple, who worked at the Israeli embassy. You see him right here in this picture.
Here's the moment the suspect was apprehended by police.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELIAS RODRIGUEZ, SUSPECT: Free, free Palestine. Free, free Palestine. Free, free, free Palestine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: CNN's Brian Todd joins us now live from the scene. We're also joined by CNN legal analyst, senior legal analyst Elie Honig, and former senior FBI official, Katherine Schweit.
Thank you all for being here.
Brian, I want to start with you with the very latest here.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right, Pamela. People familiar with his whereabouts tell CNN that at this hour, the suspect, Elias Rodriguez, 31 years old, is in a holding cell inside the federal courthouse here in Washington awaiting his initial court appearance, which is expected to come very, very shortly.
In the meantime, we are getting some new information about this incident and about the suspect. Multiple law enforcement sources telling CNN this afternoon that there was a lengthy letter that authorities are investigating as being potentially, potentially authored by the suspect that was posted to social media last night shortly after the shooting. According to our sources, that letter advocated violent retaliation for the war in Gaza.
As we know, as you just played on the air, the suspect chanted pro- Palestinian slogans as he was being handcuffed by police. And according to witnesses who we spoke to, who were just inside the building last night shortly after the shooting, just seconds after the shooting, in all the confusion, people were kind of coming in and out of the building.
The suspect, according to witnesses who we talked to, came inside the building and kind of blended in with the crowd, sat down as if he were some kind of a bystander. He was actually looking pale and unwell, according to a witness that I spoke to, and some of the other bystanders actually offered him water.
And then moments later, when the police came in, according to witnesses who we spoke to, he stood up. He went over to the police. He raised his hands and said he's unarmed and said that he did this shooting and then pulled out a coffee and did what? He was something similar to what he was shown doing outside there. He started chanting pro-Palestinian slogans.
Now we, of course, know who the victims were. They were identified as Yaron Lischinsky and Sarah Milgrim, two young employees of the Israeli embassy here in Washington. The Israeli ambassador to the U.S. told us that these two young people were supposed to become engaged very, very shortly, that they were going to travel to Jerusalem next week, where she was to meet his parents.
That's just the latest we know we are now awaiting that initial court appearance, Pamela. And there is a news conference shortly where we should learn some more about this investigation.
BROWN: All right, Brian, I know that you'll keep us posted on that.
Katherine, to you, I mean, Brian just laid out the before and after, and it really is striking to me that this gunman allegedly went in and was sitting there and was offered water. And then once police arrived, you know, he said basically that that he did it and "Free Palestine". We saw some of the video there.
As an active shooter expert, what about the gunman's movements before and after the shooting really stand out to you? What does it tell you?
KATHERINE SCHWEIT, FORMER SENIOR FBI OFFICIAL: The posting right of a statement is something that we're seeing almost every time somebody really wants to have their motivation be politically oriented, whether it's a hate crime or some other particular says, that posting is very indicative of, it's the first thing that law enforcement would look for is to see, you know, what their movement was beforehand.
The idea that he blended in is something that we see all the time, where the shooters in these cases, in these types of cases, this is really kind of a classic active shooter situation. And the shooter comes into the scene, but they make a plan to get there, but they don't necessarily make a plan to get out of there.
And when they and we saw that at Aurora theater, the shooter stood outside the building until law enforcement came to get him. It's not unusual, but more important is, you know, how can you find them ahead of time? And it's really difficult to do in these kind of situations because they are one-off shooters. They come into an area in this case, he came in to do this. BROWN: Just a follow up on that. I mean, instead of fleeing the
scene, why do you think just from based on studying past shooters, this alleged gunman would want to wait for police to arrive and then go up to the police and tell them that he did it?
SCHWEIT: I think it's a pride situation for them. They want to be able to say, I didn't chicken out, I didn't disappear. They want to continue to live out this valiant effort they see themselves undertaking.
And in order to do that, they have to be part of the story. And that includes going to trial. That includes being able to yell at the scene as the law enforcement or people with their cell phones are capturing it. It makes him continue to be famous, and that's what he wants.
BROWN: Elie, on that note, what federal charges do you think could apply here?
HONIG: Well, Pam, I think we'll find out by the end of the hour. And I think we should look for three different types of federal charges.
First of all, hate crimes. It is a federal crime to commit a murder because of or motivated by the victim's race, religion, ethnicity.
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I think they're pretty clearly was a biased motive here, an antisemitic motive.
Second of all, look for terrorism charges. It is a terrorism crime to commit a murder of a foreign diplomatic official, as both of these victims were. If the goal is to try to influence or intimidate U.S. domestic or foreign policy. And again, those statements that we just saw, I think provide some support for that.
And finally, there are firearms charges. It's a federal crime to use a firearm in the course of either of those other crimes I talked about.
So, I expect for each of those crimes, for hate crimes, for terrorism and the firearms crime, to see separate charges as to each victim here and each of those charges, pam carries a minimum of life and a maximum of potential death penalty.
BROWN: Do you expect the Justice Department to push for the death penalty, Elie?
HONIG: A hundred percent I think that they will. It may take some time before we learn that, but if you look at recent history, DOJ, under both Democratic and Republican administrations have sought the death penalty, where we've seen instances of shooters like this killing multiple people with some sort of hate crimes motive.
The synagogue shooter from Pittsburgh, the DOJ sought death. They obtained a death penalty on him. He has not yet been executed, but he has been sentenced to death. Same thing with the Charleston, South Carolina church shooter. DOJ
sought and obtained the death penalty on him. And if you look at this administration, they've been aggressive about saying they intend to seek the death penalty. And it would shock me if they don't seek the death penalty here.
BROWN: You know, you have to look at just this in the broader context, Katherine, of antisemitic attacks being on the rise. How would you describe the threat level right now for the Jewish community and the concern of copycat attacks?
SCHWEIT: I think that we're -- we've seen a steady increase in hate crimes against Jewish targets. And last year, I think the ADL said this was the first -- that was last year was the first year they recorded 58 percent I think their number was of the incidents they recorded, which continued to increase, were targeted towards Zionist or Israeli efforts.
But when it comes to how cautious should people be, what should they be doing, this was an incident where we saw prior crimes that were at protests and at events. Sometimes, of course, at Jewish community centers or places where they worship. But this is a location that wasn't identified as one of those. And I think it's a definitely a good cautionary tale that people who are out and around these buildings, no matter what their particular religious preferences, should be aware of the fact that those areas are becoming bigger targets for people who want to commit hate crimes.
BROWN: Right. Because, Elie, the attorney general, Pam Bondi, was asked whether there should have been more security around the area where the event was given the rise of antisemitic threats that have taken place. And she said, well, no one really expected something like this to happen.
What did you make of that?
HONIG: Yeah, Pam, that's something that will have to come out in the investigation. But to the prior point, it is a sad fact of life, of Jewish life in America today that you have to have armed security. I'm on the board of a summer camp, a Jewish summer camp. We now have for the last couple of years, hired an armed security guard to stand at the entrance.
If you go to an event at a synagogue, if you go to a bar mitzvah, a high holiday service, if you go to an event sponsored by the U.S. Holocaust Museum, anything like that, it is now common accepted practice. It's a sad statement, but it's true that you have to have armed security there, and I think this incident will only underscore that moving forward.
BROWN: That's very sad.
Stay there. We have some news coming in. I want to bring in CNN senior justice correspondent Evan Perez, live outside the federal prosecutor's office in D.C.
Evan, you have some news on the charges, right?
EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: That's right. These charges have just been unsealed in federal court here in Washington, D.C., Pamela. And I'll read you just what the documents say here at the top.
Murder of -- these are charges that he's -- that he is facing. Murder of foreign officials, causing the death of a person through the use of a firearm, discharge of a firearm during a crime of violence, and two counts of first-degree murder. These are the first federal charges now that have been filed against Elias Rodriguez, who is set to appear before a federal judge in the next few minutes.
Now, this is his first appearance. We don't expect that he is going to enter a plea at this moment. And of course, this is an investigation, Pamela, as you know, this is a -- this is still very early in the investigation that is still ongoing. Theres still a lot more that investigators want to know about the suspect, about who he was in touch with over the last weeks and months, and whether there's anybody else who possibly could have been involved in this crime.
And so, those are still ongoing at this at this point. But clearly, over the last, over the last few hours since last night and since the shooting deaths of these two people outside this event at the capital Jewish museum, FBI and the metropolitan police here in Washington, as well as their counterparts in Chicago, have been digging into the background of Rodriguez, trying to make sure they know everything about him. And so these are the initial charges that we anticipate. There might still be more.
One of the things that, of course, you heard from the attorney general, you heard from FBI officials, one of the things they're focused on in particular is the hate crime aspect, the antisemitism, clearly, because he targeted this event that was being held by a Jewish organization here in Washington, D.C. so you can expect that they're going to keep pursuing that that angle of this, of this incident. And so, it's quite possible that these charges may not be the final word on these charges that that the suspect faces -- Pamela.
BROWN: All right. Evan, stand by for us.
I want to bring back in Elie and Katherine.
You just heard Evan lay out the DOJ charged. Elias Rodriguez with federal murder charges in connection with the death of those two Israeli ambassador embassy staffers.
And, Elie, Evan noted that these are just initial charges and that there could be more. Tell us a little bit more about that. What your reaction is to these charges, and why it takes time, usually before a hate crime charge could be brought?
HONIG: Yeah. So, this all makes perfect sense. You start with the murder charge. You start with the firearms charges that we talked about because they're the most straightforward. Because you don't necessarily at this point, just a few hours after the murder, have to prove the motive in order to bring those straightforward murder and firearms charges. This is just step one. These charges will, in all likelihood, be contained in what we called a criminal complaint.
Now, that will be followed at some point in the coming weeks by an indictment. And at that point, that will have given DOJ and FBI more time to investigate, to look into the motives and the planning. And I fully expect by that point, as Evan just said, they're looking at hate crimes. It certainly seems that hate crimes charges will be justified here.
And we've seen FBI officials reference the possibility of terrorism charges. But I think it's a common and smart approach. You get the murder charges on the books, you get the firearms charges on the books. Thats enough to arrest this individual. That will certainly be enough to keep him locked up with no bail.
And then you work on the more complicated motive-based charges over the coming days and weeks.
BROWN: What stands out to you, Katherine? Also help us understand the difference of a murder of foreign officials. That's one of the charges here. What that actually means. What the significance that carries?
SCHWEIT: I think it's obviously there's the political implications of it, right? We have to be very careful to make sure that foreigners who are coming to our country are safe, our responsibility at the federal level, state and local level is not just to our citizens, it's to anybody who's on our soil.
And when we create a situation here where people don't feel safe to come. It has its own ramifications, whether they're political or commercial. But more importantly, I think it creates a fear amongst the community, a fear amongst the people living in our own country, that we cant keep people safe, and we need to be able to do that. We need to be able to assure people that we can keep them safe.
BROWN: Evan Perez to bring you back in. You have more information, right?
PEREZ: That's right, Pamela. Now going through the complaint here that's been filed in federal court, one of the things that stands out, you know, we heard last night from the D.C. police that the suspect after allegedly carrying out the shooting, stayed on the scene, went into the Jewish Museum.
And so, according to police, once they arrived at the scene, they actually went inside and started looking for witnesses to try to talk to Rodriguez, allegedly, according to this complaint actually approached the officers and spoke to them and said, I did it, and said I did it for free Palestine.
And one of the things that you learn in this, according to prosecutors, is that the suspect, you know, was outside, was noticed by some witnesses who believed that he was acting suspiciously. But the idea that after carrying out this shooting he stayed on the scene, didn't go anywhere, went inside the museum and waited for police to come in and try to talk to witnesses again. It really gives you a sense of that, that, you know, he was obviously wanted to be caught and wanted to make his statement, as he did to the officers who ended up arresting him at that scene -- Pamela.
BROWN: All right. Ellie, so what do you make of what Evan just laid out there and how that factors into the overall investigation?
HONIG: Well, I think that's really important evidence that prosecutors are going to use. Pam, first of all, to show that there was an agenda here. There was a specific political agenda. He wanted to get caught. He wanted to have a chance to make the statements that we saw him make. And that will be relevant both to hate crimes and to potential terrorism charges. So, I think that's a really important development.
Also, if this individual is going to make some sort of mental incapacity defense down the line, I think that conduct, the sort of pre-planning and the calm, intentional surrender will badly undermine any such defense.
[16:35:04]
BROWN: And we are expecting an update from the acting U.S. attorney coming up in this hour. We'll bring that to you live.
Thank you all so much, Katherine, Evan, Elie. We appreciate it.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: And we are awaiting a news conference on that shooting here in Washington that killed two Israeli embassy staffers.
And in the meantime, were also watching Capitol Hill, where Republican senators are saying major changes will be needed to the president's tax bill in order for it to pass the chamber.
Joining us now is Kevin Hassett, director of the National Economic Council.
[16:40:03]
Great to see you. Thank you for coming on the show.
So, the CBO estimates that the House's bill would increase the deficit by almost $4 trillion. You know, and you're seeing how the stock market and the bond market is reacting. The president, as you know, acknowledged last month, the yippee bond market contributed to his decision to pause the liberation day tariffs. Right now, bond yields are going up. Is the White House feeling nervous about that right now?
KEVIN HASSETT, DIRECTOR, WHITE HOUSE NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL: No, we're not at all. In fact, don't forget that bond yields are way down from January 20th and are down today now that the bill is out there and passed. And so, the bottom line is that what happens to the deficit depends on
what happens, as you know, I remember speaking about seven years about this with you in my office across the way that that basically depends on what happens with economic growth. And so, the Congressional Budget Office is a very pessimistic, but, you know, prudently, perhaps, sometimes pessimistic about -- oh, you got to really show me the growth.
And so, they assume 1.8 percent over the next ten years. If we get 3 percent, which is what we delivered before COVID for -- after the tax cuts, then the revenue over the next 10 years goes up by 4 trillion, which is exactly the cost of the bill.
And so, the question really is, are we going to get 3 percent or are we going to get 1.8 percent? And here, after, you know, years of experience last time, people in this White House are highly confident that were going to get three or even more than three.
BROWN: You're highly confident. But of course, we're in a different economic environment right now compared to when the tax cuts first went into place. And that is why you had J.P. Morgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon telling Bloomberg TV that the United States need to be prepared, needs to be prepared for stagflation. I mean, he cited the global fiscal deficits, militarization of what he called trade restructuring.
What do you say to that?
HASSETT: Well, I'm friends with J.D. and I talk to him all the time, and I understand that he has that view, but I just fundamentally disagree with that view. I think that basically what's going on is that Americans are seeing that there's going to be a golden age in America again. And think about this, that we had a 20 percent increase in capital spending in the first quarter of this year, even before the tax cuts went in, and that was more than happened all last year under President Biden. And so, the point is just that people are creating jobs in the U.S., and we're also targeting the new tax cuts, not the extended ones, specifically on the middle class.
And so if you don't tax overtime, and the way were doing that, by the way, pamela, is if you have time and a half, then were only taxing you on the time you get the half without tax. So, we have an estimate out that we got from the council of economic advisors that that saves the typical worker that has overtime $1,700 a year. The no tax on tips was sized about the same. And so, the typical tip earner in America is going to get $1,700 tax cut because of these things.
And it's our belief that all of those things are giving money back to the people is going to create economic activity, which will easily give us more work, more economic growth, and the 3 percent that we need so that we don't have the deficit problems that the CBO thinks we might have.
BROWN: I understand your economic calculus there, but I mean, Jamie Dimon is a respected one of the most respected investors and economic experts in this country. I mean, how can he be so wrong here? He's factoring in exactly what you just laid out. HASSETT: You know, the philosopher Jeremy Bentham once said that
appeal to authority is the lowest form of argument. And so if Jamie shows me some analysis and asks me whether I think it's right or not, that I promise you I'll say it's wrong.
But whoever the authority is, I don't believe him until I see the analysis. And Jamie has not presented analysis that's consistent with his statements.
BROWN: All right. So I also want to ask you something else from the president. He posted that he is seriously considering going public with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. As you well know, they guarantee most mortgages in America, and taking them public could further drive rates up even further.
What do you say people who have real practical concerns about what this decision could mean on mortgage rates?
HASSETT: Well, it's a work in progress. It's something that the president wants his team to look into, and his team will do that. But nothing's been decided yet.
BROWN: Well, do you think it's a good idea as an economic advisor to the president?
HASSETT: You know, that -- that's something that we have to start all getting together and talking about before we talk in the media about it. But right now, we're going to --
BROWN: Surely, surely, you thought about it.
HASSETT: -- we're going to assemble.
BROWN: OK.
HASSETT: Of course I have, but we're going to assemble a team and get everybody's opinion. That's what we do at the National Economic Council is we drive consensus. And so, I don't try to get ahead of consensus. I try to drive consensus, and I can't drive consensus by coming out in front of the first meeting.
BROWN: OK. All right. Let me ask you about something else. And that is you know, obviously we had the, the trade deal if you want to call it that, that was worked out between China and the U.S. It's temporary.
A source within the White House told CNN that President Trump and President Xi still have not spoken directly. When will they speak? Why haven't they spoken yet?
HASSETT: Well, they have spoken since President Trump is here. But on this matter, they have not spoken yet. And right now, Secretary of Treasury Scott Bessent has been very successful at driving consensus and collegiality amongst the Chinese.
[16:45:04] I know there's some frustration with the exports that we've -- they've agreed to release, not coming as fast as we would like, but Secretary of Treasury Bessett is managing that process right now.
BROWN: But so, when was the last time they spoke, just to be clear?
HASSETT: Oh, I'm sorry, I don't keep the calendar that close, but the press office could let you know. But I just don't know.
BROWN: Okay, because --
HASSETT: I don't know --
BROWN: -- you talk about that they have spoken. So, I just wanted to have a time frame for that. And whether they've -- and do you know if they've ever spoken about the trade deal in particular?
HASSETT: I have not.
BROWN: Okay.
HASSSETT: I have not been briefed on that.
BROWN: I want to just ask you about this dinner tonight. President Trump is going to host hundreds of people who purchased millions in his meme coin today. You heard the Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt say that he's doing this in his personal time and his private club. But tomorrow, the top 25 people who spent the most money on his meme coin are eligible for a private tour at the White House.
Are you comfortable with this dinner and these tours, which are likely to go to a number of wealthy foreigners?
HASSETT: Everything that the president has done has been carefully scrutinized by White House counsel. And, you know, they've given him the guidance that that's okay, and that's enough for me.
BROWN: So, but what do you say to Americans who are watching this, who are concerned that the president is sort of using the office to enrich himself with the business and having this dinner with foreigners who are giving all of this money, and the White House is not even releasing a list. Do you understand why Americans are concerned? What do you say to them?
HASSETT: Look, the American people voted for president Trump because they know that he puts America first. He's putting American workers first. Thats why we're getting the $1,700 to overtime workers, the $1,700 for people earning tips.
And then we haven't even started talking about all the people who aren't going to get taxed on their Social Security. And so, everybody in America knows that President Trump puts Americans first.
BROWN: Well, there --
HASSETT: That's why they voted for him. BROWN: There are still Americans who are who are watching that and
concerned. They want to know who is there. They want more transparency from this White House.
But Kevin Hassett, thank you very much for your time. I appreciate it. And I do remember going to your office seven years ago as the White House correspondent. Good memory.
HASSETT: And talk about your mom's NFL career.
BROWN: Oh my gosh. Wow. You really do have a good memory.
All right. Thanks, Kevin. Appreciate it.
Well, officials here in Washington are giving an update into the fatal shooting of two staffers at the Israeli embassy. Let's listen.
JEANINE PIRRO, INTERIM U.S. ATTORNEY FOR WASHINGTON, D.C.: -- along with 26-year-old Sarah Lynn Milgrim of Kansas.
In addition, there are several felony firearms charges for discharging a firearm in the middle of a violent crime and for causing the death of an individual through the use of that firearm. Now, this investigation is continuing, and as you can see, we have most of the stakeholders here today who will be given an opportunity to speak with you. But what I want to be clear about today, since this is the first time you're hearing from me, is that this is a horrific crime and these crimes are not going to be tolerated by me and by this office.
A young couple at the beginning of their life's journey, about to be engaged in another country, had their bodies removed in the cold of the night, in a foreign city, in a body bag. We are not going to tolerate that anymore. And I am not unaware, based upon my own background of the repercussions of this kind of case, this is the kind of case that picks at old sores and old scars, because these kinds of cases remind us of what has happened in the past, that we can never and must never forget.
I want to mention one thing, the Capital Jewish Museum in Washington, D.C., where this young couple had been at an event, was built around a brick building. That brick building was previously a synagogue called Adas Israel. It was one of Washington's first synagogues, a congregation that was created in 1869 and Ulysses S. Grant, our president, actually attended the dedication of that synagogue. And so, to this day, that synagogue in that area remains a cornerstone of the Jewish community in D.C.
Let me also say that violence against anyone based on their religion is an act of cowardice. It is not an act of a hero. It is the kind of case that we will vigorously pursue. Antisemitism will not be tolerated, especially in the nation's capital.
We're going to continue to investigate this as a hate crime and a crime of terrorism, and we will add additional charges as the evidence warrants.
[16:50:00]
So, this charging today is the initial charge. Remember, we're less than 24 hours from the crime itself.
And we are working furiously and diligently with our partners behind me. Weve got massive amounts of evidence that we are vetting. We are verifying and we are reviewing. This is the start and not the beginning.
And finally, let me say this: President Donald Trump appointed me to this position. This is the nation's capital. We should all be proud of this capital. And the president wants D.C. safe. And I and the partners behind me are going to do everything we can to make people proud of this city, whether they're from this city, from the country, or from other parts of the world. Thank you.
Now I'm going to call on Mayor Muriel Bowser.
MAYOR MURIEL BOWSER (D), WASHINGTON, D.C.: Good afternoon. I'm Muriel Bowser. I'm mayor of Washington, D.C.
I want to thank Judge Pirro for inviting us today. I'm joined by the chief of the Metropolitan Police Department, Pamela A. Smith. Metropolitan Police Department is the local D.C. police.
We are here to echo what the U.S. attorney has said, that this crime will not be tolerated in our city. We're grateful for the partnership with our federal partners, MPD and the FBI have worked hand in hand on this investigation and will continue to do so.
I also want to acknowledge our families in Washington, D.C. who are suffering and who are afraid and fearful for what this act has done to their sense of safety. But we know that feeling is represented around the globe.
Earlier today, I convened a meeting with the mayor's interfaith council, where we spoke with leaders of congregations and Jewish institutions across D.C., as well as D.C. council members and the attorney general for Washington, D.C.
We heard our leaders reiterate messages of love and solidarity with the Jewish community. Sadly, we have had practice standing together as a community to fight antisemitism, both in hate speech and in hateful acts. And so, in this moment, we stand shoulder to shoulder as one community, united in love, but also committed to justice for this young couple.
I also had the opportunity to speak with the Smalls family, and Sonny Smalls is well-known in Washington, dc, and his family has poured decades of time and love into making sure we have the capital Jewish Museum in Washington, D.C.
And one special aspect of that museum is that it celebrates local Jewish life. It focuses on dc Jews and how they have been a part of our culture and building on the city that we love. So once again, our city stands with our community, working with our
institutions to make sure we have all the resources that we need to support them. And with that, Judge, I'll turn it over to Chief Smith.
CHIEF PAMELA A. SMITH, D.C. POLICE: Good afternoon, everyone. I'm Chief Pamela A. Smith, the chief of police of the Metropolitan Police Department.
Let me begin by reiterating my condolences to the family and friends of Yaron Lischinsky and Sarah Milgrim. I also want to thank Mayor Muriel Bowser, Judge Pirro, and Director Jensen for their collaborative effort and support around this tragic incident.
What I also will say is that everyone at the Metropolitan Police Department is holding the family in their thoughts and in their prayers.
Our detectives have been working around the clock in close partnership with our federal partners, and this effort regarding this investigation has been a collaborative effort. All of the agencies involved in this investigation have been coordinating seamlessly overnight.
Members of the Metropolitan Police Department's Office of Homeland Security intelligence are working in partnership with the FBI to analyze the suspects activity prior to the shooting around D.C. -- and I want to speak specifically to the community here in the District of Columbia.
Around D.C., you will see an increased presence of law enforcement officers around the community.
[16:55:00]
You will find us around our faith-based organizations. You will see an increased presence around our schools and places like the D.C. Jewish Community Center.
We stand shoulder to shoulder with our Jewish community. I also met, along with Mayor Bowser, with some of our faith leaders. I was moved by their desire to ensure that we keep our city safe and we keep our Jewish community members safe, and we are ready to support them in any way possible as we move forward.
Most folks in this city know that I take the relationships that we have with our religious communities very seriously.
I want to again express and remind the community that if you see something, say something. Please let us know. Any information that you provide for us, we will utilize it in support of conducting this investigation.
I will now turn it over to the assistant director in charge of the Washington field office, Steve Jensen.
STEVE JENSEN, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR IN CHARGE OF FBI WASHINGTON FIELD OFFICE: Thank you, Chief.
As the chief said, I'm Steve Jensen. I'm the assistant director in charge of the Washington field office for the FBI.
And I'd like to start by reiterating what Director Patel pushed out publicly that the tragic murder of these two Israeli embassy employees outside of the Capital Jewish Museum last night was both an act of terror and directed violence against the Jewish community. And it has the full and unwavering attention of the FBI.
The FBI Washington field office, JTTF has been in lockstep with MPD and with the assistance of. FBI offices across the country, we're continuing to investigate and contact the subjects associates, his family members and coworkers.
We are also executing search warrants for his electronic devices, reviewing his social media accounts and all of his Internet postings. Regarding some Internet postings, we are aware of some writings that are purported to have been authored by this subject. We're actively investigating to determine both the authorship and the attribution of these writings if they belong to this subject or not.
I'd like to thank our partners in the U.S. attorney's office for bringing these significant federal charges in quick order, within 24 hours or less than of the time of this incident. Make no mistake, this attack was targeted antisemitic violence, and it won't be tolerated.
These significant charges are a step towards restoring justice for the victims and their families. But our work is not done. The FBI will continue to pursue all leads and use all available resources to investigate this attack.
We joined MPD in affirming that there is no ongoing threat to this community, and we're also seeking assistance from the public. We do have gaps in this investigation, currently We know the subject landed in the D.C. area on May 20th and that he was taken into custody on May 21st.
We're asking the public, anybody who had contact with the subject, anybody who knew his whereabouts or where he was located during that gap of time to contact the FBI at 1-800-CALL-FBI or to submit an online tip at tips.fbi.gov.
And with that, I will turn it back over to judge.
PIRRO: Thank you very much.
All right. We'll take a couple of questions. Go ahead.
REPORTER: We had spoken to a witness who said that this was a private event, that it wasn't publicized. So, is there any idea how he actually knew about this and showed up at this specific event?
PIRRO: You know, that's something that we're investigating right now. I think that, Chief, you'd agree with me on that. That's the kind of thing -- do we know? And -- JENSEN: That's still under investigation.
PIRRO: Yeah, we're looking at that. There's a lot -- everybody understands. This is fluid. It's happening now. Go ahead.
REPORTER: Madam U.S. attorney, you mentioned terrorism. Can you speak to any possible nexus to terrorism?
And, Assistant Director Jensen, are you confident that this gunman acted alone? Is there any indication at this point that he was inspired?
And then also curious if the chief has any concerns about copycat attacks?
PIRRO: Well, first of all, let me say that we're going to continue, as I said, to investigate this as an act of terrorism and as a hate crime. And as we do so, we will bring additional charges whenever those charges are warranted and provable.
And I suspect, as we go forward, before we get to the grand jury itself, that there will be more charges added.
Yes, sir.
REPORTER: Has there been any indication from the investigation so far that the subject was on the radar for the FBI or some other investigative agency around the country? Was he involved in any activism that might have put him on the radar? And also, if you would, also, on the issue --
