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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt
Musk Says He Will Continue To Advise Trump, As He Formally Ends His Time In Government; Biden To CNN: No Regrets About 2024 Campaign; Todd Chrisley Makes First Public Appearance Since Pardon; Taylor Swift Now Owns Her Entire Music Catalog. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired May 30, 2025 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[16:00:03]
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Yep. So, she posted online. You kept asking about my bathwater, so we kept it. Sydney's bathwater bliss goes on sale next month for $8 a bar with only 5,000 bars available, and as part of the promotion, Dr. Squatch is giving 100 of them away for free, but the brand stipulates people have to be 18 years old.
I don't know, whatever -- some people just Etsy stuff. This is, you know, they just Etsy, the soap. It's a real different thing.
THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT starts right now.
KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: It's Musk versus his businesses.
But is this really the end of Elon Musk's time with Donald Trump?
Let's head into THE ARENA.
The world's richest man saying he's not going to totally disappear as he exits the White House, addressing his time at DOGE and his criticisms of the so-called Big, Beautiful Bill. This hour, we'll talk with one of the president's top advisers.
Also this hour, former President Biden talking to CNN, what he's saying about his cancer diagnosis and if he has any regrets on the 2024 campaign trail.
Plus, first the pardon, now the promise. What a reality star is now vowing to do after receiving a get out of jail free card from the president.
(MUSIC)
HUNT: Hi, everyone. Welcome to THE ARENA. I'm Kasie Hunt.
Happy Friday. It's wonderful to have you with us. We made it to the weekend.
Just moments ago, at the White House, a long good-bye to Elon Musk as the one-time DOGE chief officially ends his time working in the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have given it to some, but it goes to very special people, and I thought I'd -- I'd give it to Elon as a presentation from our country.
ELON MUSK, TECH BILLIONAIRE: Thank you.
TRUMP: Thank you, Elon.
MUSK: Thank you.
TRUMP: Take care of yourself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: President Trump handing Musk a golden key and putting on quite a show for the cameras as Musk capped off what has been, let's be real, a whirlwind tour as a, quote, special government employee, end quote.
Who can forget him on the stage at CPAC in that dark MAGA hat and sunglasses? That was the chainsaw for bureaucracy, he called it.
Or that time he tried to help a conservative candidate win a seat on the Wisconsin Supreme Court. He put on that cheesehead hat. He handed out oversize million dollar checks. But that effort was ultimately unsuccessful.
And Musk recently said that he is done spending big amounts on campaigns, but is today really a final, final farewell to politics?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Elon is really not leaving. He's going to be back and forth. I think I have a feeling.
MUSK: Well, I expect to continue to provide advice whenever the president would like advice.
TRUMP: I hope so.
MUSK: I mean, I'm -- yeah, it's -- I expect to remain a friend and an advisor. And certainly, if there's anything the president wants me to do, I'm at the president's service.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: So, the world's richest man seen there is now going to return full time to his many multibillion dollar companies, including SpaceX, which once again saw its massive starship rocket explode earlier this week. That's the second time that's happened this year, and he'll head back to Tesla, which, of course, became the target of much of this violence and vandalism. As Musk's political involvement dominated headlines earlier this year.
Last month, Tesla announced that its first quarter net income plummeted a staggering 71 percent compared to the year before, and Musk's own public perception has taken a similar downturn. The latest Marquette poll, finding that 59 percent of Americans have a negative opinion of Elon Musk. Just over a third say they're still fans of his.
And so, even as he ends one job, he has his hands extraordinarily full trying to turn things around. Not making that mission any easier for Musk, "The New York Times" this morning publishing a deep dive on his alleged use of potential abuse of illegal drugs. Neither Musk nor his lawyer responded to "The Times" request for comment, and CNN has reached out to his representatives.
Asked about that today, Elon Musk attacked "The Times" credibility. But so, as Musk bids goodbye for now to Washington, the question really is was it worth it and what's next?
In a new interview with CBS, he indicated that leaving the White House behind might not be such a bad thing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MUSK: I agree with much of what the administration does, but we have differences of opinion. You know, the things that I -- you know, I don't entirely agree with, but it's difficult for me to bring that up in an interview because then it creates a bone of contention. So, then I'm a little stuck in a bind where I'm like, well, I don't want to, you know, speak out against the administration, but I don't want to -- I also don't want to take responsibility for everything the administration is doing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[16:05:08]
HUNT: All right. Let's bring in CNN's Jeff Zeleny. He's live for us outside the White House.
Jeff, so Trump said this isn't the end for Elon Musk. I will say that my reporting suggests that there are many a Republican on Capitol Hill who would prefer to keep control of Capitol Hill, who are more than happy to see Elon Musk exit stage left. But what's your understanding of how he is parting ways at this point in his standing within the White House?
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kasie, look, I think there are many cabinet members and. Others who are also grateful for what Elon Musk has done and pleased that he is leaving because there has been a bit of competition with him. There's no doubt about it.
For the president's time, first and foremost, at the very beginning of this administration, Elon Musk was someone he wasn't just a special government employee. He was the most special. He would travel with him on Air Force One. He would go with him to Mar-a-Lago. Everywhere else. He spent some nights here at the White House, the Lincoln bedroom.
So, look, he had a carte blanche to do pretty much anything he wanted. The question is, what does the fallout and the history books, short term and long term, say about DOGE? All of the projections he made about cutting. First, it was $2 trillion, then $1 trillion, then significantly less than that in government spending have not come to pass.
However, there has been a much damage in the eyes of some inside the government to agencies by cutting institutional knowledge and long serving workers, the soft power that so many talk about. He has also a modernized some systems inside the government. So, I think we will have to wait and see to see how much of those efforts will remain.
But a lot of his longtime employees are going to go with him. Some are now embedded inside agencies, there's no question about that. But I think the bigger question for the president, is Elon Musk going to be a political sounding board, if you will? Is he going to be giving contributions to other Republican candidates?
For all the consternation on capitol hill, most Republicans were certainly eager to accept his political contributions. Those are likely to not be repeated to the degree that they were last year. Some $275 million Elon Musk spent to get the president elected.
So, their relationship has not just been this year. It was dating back to last summer, certainly during the transition as well. Elon Musk had a huge role in shaping this government during the transition time. So, we shall see how the president sort of occupies without him.
But in the last several weeks, he -- his influence inside this administration has been waning. There's no doubt about that. But today, one thing was clear. Both men wanted a fond farewell.
Of course, the president wanted to send off the world's richest man with a smile. They are friends. The question is how often and how close they will work together in the future.
And that's something we don't have an answer to at the moment -- Kasie.
HUNT: All right. Jeff Zeleny, getting us started today -- Jeff, very grateful to see you. Thank you very much.
And joining us now to discuss further, White House National Economic Council Director Kevin Hassett.
Sir, always great to have you on the program. Thank you very much for being here.
There does seem to be some tension between the mission that Elon Musk was on with DOGE and the, quote/unquote, Big, Beautiful Bill that Musk was criticizing on the way out.
What is the right answer for the economy, especially when the Congressional Budget Office says that the bill is going to add trillions to the national debt?
KEVIN HASSETT, DIRECTOR, WHITE HOUSE NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL: Right. Well, first of all, I just want to say that I kind of disagree with a lot of the reporting just now that I'm on the second floor of the West Wing. That's kind of the nerd floor. And Elon was up there, too, and I worked really closely with Elon all the way back to the 20th of January.
And I'm very, very fond of the guy. He's a really kind person. Everybody in the West Wing, he has time for. He works harder than anyone I've ever seen. He's there till wee hours of the morning.
And I'm going to miss him. I'm going to miss him a lot. He's a very good person who had a big contribution.
Now, what is the contribution? You guys were just talking about it. Well, one of them is that he's helped us get visibility on stuff that government is doing. That's very wasteful. And with Russell Vought now over at OMB, what we're doing is we're starting to roll up all of the accomplishments that Elon made and send them into as rescission packages up to the Hill so that Congress can look at the things that we think are wasteful and then stop spending money on that.
And Elon said that he's confident that we're going to get up to about $1 trillion in cuts. And when I look at the things that we have in train to rescind, I can see how that's like a very reasonable expectation. And so, I think that he's been a wonderful colleague. I'm going to miss him. And he's done a heck of a lot of good for America.
HUNT: You say that he's a wonderful colleague. "The Times", of course, reporting this morning on extensive drug use.
Did you ever witness Elon Musk under the influence of drugs?
HASSETT : Not even close. No.
HUNT: Never? Not once?
HASSETT: Not even once. No, not in a million years.
And I could just say that he is a person who's so filled with joy that it's just a natural way that he is, and he's just been absolutely a blast to work with.
[16:10:08]
And of course, there's no sign whatsoever, anything like that.
HUNT: Did any of the personal drama that was reported make its way into the White House?
HASSETT: We I never talked to him about personal drama, ever. I just talked to him about every technical issue. I could tell you that just about every technical issue, like we were the president was talking about spectrum in 6G. And whatever it is, Elon knows everything about it. He's one of the most remarkable minds I've ever seen. He's the Thomas Edison of our day.
HUNT: Do you think his time in government will benefit his companies from a regulatory perspective? HASSETT: I don't think that he ever thought anything about his own
personal gain. He was just trying to make government work better.
HUNT: So he didn't have, like a personal vendetta against USAID, for example?
HASSETT: -- stop wasting money. He had no personal -- he had no personal agenda whatsoever. I never saw anything like that. It's completely, completely not true.
In fact, he just went around and helped us, all the cabinet secretaries and us at the National Economic Council gain clarity and visibility on everything that the government is doing. Until we had, you know, he came in the first day, I think his t shirt said tech support. And he really was the best tech support you could possibly have.
And I also got to say that he also -- that he's a person. You talk about him as like the world's richest man. You realize that that he's not a person who acts like that.
And so, in the White House, he had like the most comically small office of anybody, anybody in the West Wing, you know, it's like sort of Harry Potter. Kind of size office. And so, he's not about pretensions, he's about getting stuff done.
And that's why he's got so many great companies and why we were so glad to have him when we could.
HUNT: The cupboard under the stairs, I think, is probably what you are referring to there.
HASSETT: It wasn't under the stairs, but it was about that size for sure. Had enough room for a chair and a place to play video games.
HUNT: Was he playing video games in the White House?
HASSETT: He was ready to. I didn't see him do it.
HUNT: Okay.
HASSETT: Video game console in the cupboard under the stairs. You heard it here first.
Kevin, let's talk a little bit about some of the economic issues that you work on today. I want to show you -- we touched on the Big, Beautiful Bill. Of course, that reconciliation package that includes the extension of the Trump tax cuts.
Republican Senator Joni Ernst was asked about the bill at a town hall that she had in her home state of Iowa.
I want to watch that moment and then we'll talk about it. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. JONI ERNST (R-IA): When you are arguing -- when you are arguing about illegals that are receiving Medicaid benefits, 1.4 million, 1.4, they're not -- they are not eligible. So, they will be coming off. So, we -- people are not -- well, we all are going to die. So, for heaven's sakes -- for heaven's sakes, folks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: What do you say to Americans who are concerned that impact to their health benefits might ultimately have implications as far as their own deaths? Would you respond the same way Senator Ernst did there?
HASSETT: Listen, nobody that is lawfully supposed to receive Medicare or Medicaid is going to not receive it. And in America, if somebody needs medical help, they go to the hospital, they get it. And so that accusation that was thrown at Joni was just false, that, you know, people go to the hospital, they get treated in America.
HUNT: The Congressional Budget Office does suggest, and this is part of why Medicaid cuts have been such a big part of the conversation, because it's one of the only ways to really save substantial amounts of money in a package like this, that this is going to add an incredible amount, $3.8 trillion to the national debt over the next 10 years.
And, of course, Wall Street has reacted to this, of course, as well. Is this something that overall is going to put America on stronger economic footing, adding that much to the debt?
HASSETT: Well, first of all, the way to think about what the Congressional Budget Office has said is that if economic growth over the next ten years is only 1.8 percent, then it's going to add the number that you just said to the debt. If, on the other hand, economic growth over the next ten years is going to be 3 percent, then that adds $4 trillion to revenue. And so, the question about, is this going to increase the debt or not really depends on your outlook about growth. If you think growth is going to be low and the ones, then the CBO number is a simulation of what would happen.
But growth is going to be way higher than 1.8 percent. Last time in 2017, when we argued for these tax cuts, we said growth would get to 3 percent. And it did. And it was running strong doing that right up until the COVID problem.
And so, I think that ultimately the question is -- is it going to work? And there's a whole bunch of evidence that worked last time. And we've taken the things that worked best last time and we made them bigger this time.
And the other thing you want to understand too, is that if you don't pass the bill, then we're going to have the biggest tax hike that we've ever had in U.S. history, which would very much toss us into a recession, which would increase the deficit and be really, really bad for the fiscal situation because of all the extra spending that happens in recessions. And so, the idea that this bill is going to be, you know, worse for
the deficit than if we didn't have the bill is just -- I just reject it. I think that I'm an optimist based on science, on the growth. And I'm also a realist about what would happen if we don't pass it.
HUNT: You mentioned growth, of course. I think it is worth noting that the economy was growing, that GDP was growing. When you guys came into office, it actually was negative in terms of growth. After many of these tariffs that your administration implemented.
I want to play for you before I let you go, something that Jamie Dimon said about his recent visit to China and the implications for our tariff trade war that you all have started with China. Let's watch what Diamond said, and then we'll talk about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMIE DIMON, JPMORGAN CEO: I would engage with China. You know, I just got back from China last week. They're not scared, folks. There's notion they're going to come back to America. I wouldn't count on that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: And Scott Bessent has said these talks are stalled. What do you say to Jamie Dimon there?
HASSETT: The talks are ongoing. I think that there's a lot of progress that needs to be made, but we've made some progress and we're hoping for a lot more in the next week.
The bottom line is that the Chinese economy is reeling. It was really, really when the tariffs before the pause of the tariffs. And so, they understand the stakes. And I'm optimistic that in the end were going to have a very positive deal with China.
HUNT: All right. Kevin Hassett, thank you very much for being here.
HASSETT: Thank you, Kasie.
HUNT: Apparently, you missed your opportunity to play video games with Elon over the --
HASSETT: I'm not very good at them.
HUNT: All right. Thank you.
All right. Coming up next here. More on the exit of Elon Musk. And whether or not he is actually leaving the administration. Plus, former President Biden talking to CNN today revealing new details on his cancer diagnosis.
And that's not all.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: There are some Democrats who are now questioning whether you should have run for reelection in the first place.
JOE BIDEN, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Why didn't they run against me then? Because I'd have beaten them.
REPORTER: Do you have any regrets?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:21:33]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MUSK: I'd liken it to sort of Buddhism. It's like a way of life. So, it is permeating throughout the government. And I'm confident that over time, we will see $1 trillion of savings and a reduction in -- $1 trillion of waste and fraud reduction.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: The way of life, Elon Musk wearing an apparent DOGE father T- shirt, speaking about his tumultuous months long DOGE efforts at the White House today as the billionaire prepares to step away from his former formal government role.
That was not Musk's first time referencing Buddhism when he was talking about his overall effort to overhaul the federal bureaucracy. You may remember that when he was asked earlier this month about who will lead the DOGE effort when he retreats, Musk told "The Washington Post" this, quote, is Buddha needed for Buddhism, he said. Was it not stronger after he passed away?
Okay. Our panel is here. CNN political commentator Jonah Goldberg; CNN contributor, "New York Times" journalist, podcast host, Lulu Garcia- Navarro; Democratic strategist Meghan Hays; and CNN political commentator, Republican strategist Shermichael Singleton.
Welcome to all of you. Thank you very much for being here.
Jonah, let me start with you. I think I'm fixated on, like, the ego piece of this Buddhism reference, which is like very not Buddhist. Can I just say?
JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It is not -- it is not very Buddhist, I'll tell you that. Nor do I think it's a great analogy, right? I mean, because the idea -- first of all, DOGE was not particularly successful on its own terms. And they had a -- they had a constantly moving target about what the number was going to be, what they were doing. Some of this -- as a conservative, I believe there's waste, fraud and abuse, but they basically -- it was more like vandalism in a lot of places than it was actually reform. And the fact that Congress has not picked up any of these recommendations yet.
I mean, Ron DeSantis, I think, is carving out a lane as the guy who says there's a way to do this, and it's the way I'm doing it, not the way they're doing it in Washington, which is going to be a story in the years to come.
Plus, DOGE-ism is not a way of life. It is not Buddhism. Snatch the pebble from my hand, grasshopper, and be a member of DOGE does not a thing. And so, I think the spirit of DOGE will rapidly get subsumed in the spirit of Trumpism.
HUNT: So, Musk was asked also, you made one of the other things you may have noticed today is that he had a bruise on his eye, which he was asked about. Let's let him explain it, and then we'll discuss briefly.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MUSK: Well, it wasn't -- I wasn't anywhere near France, so I was just horsing around with little X, and I said go ahead, punch me in the face. And he did. Turns out, even a five-year-old punching you in the face actually does --
TRUMP: X actually did?
MUSK: Yeah. I mean --
TRUMP: X can do it. If you knew X.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: So, he's, of course, talking about his son Lulu, who we've seen in the Oval Office as well. I think -- I was sort of struck by this only because it's a little bit of a metaphor, right? I mean, he's leaving Washington basically with a black eye. He's much less popular as we walk through at the top of the show than he was when he came in.
His companies, at least Tesla is having a lot of financial trouble that they weren't having before. And, you know, as Jonah was pointing out, DOGE has not exactly done what they came to Washington to do either.
LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: No, I think the epitaph here is that government, one, Elon, zero. And I think many before him have come and found that to be the case.
You know, the thing is, we make a joke about this because of the chainsaw and because of Elon Musk's personality and all the kind of theatrics that went around this.
[16:25:08]
But there are real people and real things that happened here that are very, very bad. He went after low-hanging fruit, things that he thought weren't going to be missed, like USAID, which left, you know, people in other countries in terrible situations without food, without medical attention. He fired people from the federal government that, didn't need to be fired. He did take a chainsaw when he didn't have to, and it didn't actually work.
SMERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, I think he's become a beloved person on the right, at least among Republicans who support the president, in part because he did sacrifice a lot to do this. I mean, you touched on it at the top of the show, 71 percent decrease in revenue for Tesla, which is one of his most profitable companies in his portfolio. I think he also realized that running a private business versus governing to the point that you just made it is not the same.
Unfortunately, I do think government needs to be run more efficiently, and I think most Americans, even Democrats, would argue about that. Now, we may have a different approach to tackling some of these issues of cost and waste and fraud and abuse. But I think he gave a lot, and he sacrificed a lot in terms of his business.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: He didn't find the waste and fraud and abuse, though, that is the big issue. He didn't actually find it.
SINGLETON: But it exists, Lulu. We can agree on that, right?
GARCIA-NAVARRO: I mean, apparently, yes, but I'm a journalist, so I'd just like to see the receipts.
MEGHAN HAYS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: He got rid of the human capital piece of this, which is, I think, the most detrimental piece, right? You can't run the government like you were saying, like a business, because there's humans involved in it. And that's the thing that he got rid of. He came in and he sacrificed a lot of jobs that are not in Washington, that are far out into the country and impacting a lot of red states that are ultimately going to hurt Trump in a political way. And I don't think the world's richest man sacrifices much being able to, like, come in --
SINGLETON: How much is enough? Like, how many jobs should we cut? Where should we cut?
GOLDBERG: So I think --
SINGLETON: What's the alternative.
GOLDBERG: Part of the problem is there's the parable of Chesterton's fence, which we don't need to get into. But basically, you're not supposed to tear down a fence if you don't know why it was put up in the first place.
And look, we have -- we don't have the federal workforce when Musk, when DOGE started, was basically no bigger than it was 30 years ago because we've restructured government so that most government bureaucrats are basically contract managers for outside consultants. And there's a lot of money wasted there. A lot of those contracts can be revisited.
But he didn't know how that stuff worked. He didn't know how the data entry in Social Security worked. And you can't do serious, lasting reform unless you actually know how government works.
Mitch Daniels with a clipboard in a year could downsize government much more effectively. SINGLETON: I don't think Congress even knows how most of these
programs work, if I'm being honest. Thats why the debt continues to balloon.
GOLDBERG: I agree, but don't get me started on Congress.
(LAUGHTER)
HUNT: For real.
Meghan Hays, Elon Musk became a real kind of boogeyman for Democrats, right? Is it -- do you see politics here in his kind of formal exit? Republicans actually -- I mean, Trump obviously felt like he needed to give him a sendoff. He clearly still wants his money.
But there are a lot of Republicans who are more than happy to say goodbye to him from a political perspective.
HAYS: Right. Every down ballot race that he got involved in since the election, the Republicans have lost. So, he's not doing them any favors. And he has said himself that he's not going to be investing in politics, because guess what? It is detrimental to his business.
And he is losing money in his actual life because he wanted to play in politics, something he knows nothing about, to Jonah's point. You don't know how the government works. Don't try to come in and take a chainsaw to it.
Do it more -- you could have done it with a scalpel and been extremely effective and left in a very popular way. But you did not do that because to your original point, his ego.
HUNT: Yeah. I mean, Jonah, maybe I've been around this too long now, but Tom Coburn used to do this, like, every year. Put out a book of all the things.
GOLDBERG: The golden fleece award.
HUNT: This is not like a new idea.
Okay. Coming up next here, former President Biden talking to CNN, reacting to criticism from big name Democrats who now say he should never have run for reelection.
Plus, the purchase of a lifetime for Taylor Swift. We'll explain.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:33:25]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: American democracy has endured for nearly 250 years. Every generation, every generation, every generation, that's the fight to maintain that democracy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: All right. Former President Joe Biden making his first public remarks today since his prostate cancer diagnosis. Speaking at an event honoring veterans, Biden told reporters that he's, quote, feeling good. The 82-year-old, also responding to a question from CNN's Arlette Saenz about reports of his cognitive decline.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And there's also been a lot of discussion recently about your mental and physical capabilities while you were in office.
BIDEN: You can see that. I'm mentally incompetent and I can't walk, and I can beat the hell out of both of them.
SAENZ: Do you want to reply to any of those reports, and also to the fact that there are some Democrats who are now questioning whether you should have run for reelection in the first place?
BIDEN: Why didn't they run against me then? Because I would have beaten them.
SANEZ: Do you have any regrets?
BIDEN: No, I don't have any regrets.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Joining me now, Democratic Congressman Robert Garcia of California.
Congressman, let me start there with that question. Do you, as a Democrat who is now facing taking on the second Donald Trump administration, do you regret that President Biden ran for reelection?
REP. ROBERT GARCIA (D-CA): No. First of all, President Biden was our nominee. He stepped aside, of course. And I think Vice President Harris did a great job of putting together that campaign.
HUNT: Yeah, but that's not my question. I mean, I'm talking about the initial decision.
[16:35:05]
GARCIA: No, no, I -- look, that's a decision that the president made and one that he made. I support the president. What he tried to do for our country in those first four years. And I think, unfortunately, because of an incredible amount of misinformation from Donald Trump and his supporters, we weren't able to win.
But I think the vice president did a great job. And now we're focused on making sure that we flip the House and win the next election.
HUNT: Do you feel as though the Biden White House was 100 percent honest and transparent with you and your colleagues about the presidents fitness for the job?
GARCIA: Look, I'll tell you this. I had a handful of interactions with the president. Of course, when I was there and as a member of Congress, and every time he was gracious, he was kind. He was he was doing his job. I had no personal concerns.
I wasn't there at the White House. So, it's hard for me to comment on some of these conversations. What I do know is this is right now we have a president that is dismantling Medicaid that wants to dismantle Social Security, that has taken away food assistance from young kids, and is working actively to destroy our federal agencies.
So, we're focused on is making sure that the current president, Donald Trump, is actually stopped and approached trying to dismantle the public safety net that we have in this country and what's happening across the government with DOGE and Elon Musk.
HUNT: Let me ask you about your own future here, because you're, of course, on the oversight committee and you've announced a bid to be the top Democrat on that committee after, of course, the tragic passing of Gerry Connolly, who, of course, a longtime member of the body. I've known him for many, many years.
But there's, of course, now a battle to replace him. And it's a generational one.
Do you think that your party understands the value of having a younger generation step into these leadership roles? Or do you expect that you're going to struggle to get traction in your bid because of this dynamic?
GARCIA: I think, first, I think it's important that our caucus is made up of all types of folks, of all types of experiences. And actually, that makes I think, the Democratic caucus incredibly strong.
And so, no, I think folks that are looking at this, I respect our friends. I think that what's really important is that our party is a big tent party, and that brings in everyone, folks that have incredible experience, folks that are bringing in energy. And so, what's really important about the oversight committee and the work that we do there is it is there to hold accountable the decisions being made by the administration and the powerful.
And in this case, Donald Trump, Elon Musk and those that are trying to rip off the American taxpayer need to be held accountable for their actions. That's what the oversight committee is there for. It's also there to look at reforming government, to actually make it more efficient and run better. Not what DOGE and Elon Musk has tried to do.
And that's why, personally, I'm very interested in the committee and why we're moving forward.
HUNT: Yeah.
All right. Congressman Robert Garcia, always grateful to have you on the show. Thank you very much for being here. I hope you'll come back soon. And best of luck in your bid. Thanks.
All right. Our panel is back.
Meghan Hays, this one's for you, of course. Welcome back --
HAYS: Thank you.
HUNT: -- to the hot seat.
The president, obviously, the former president clearly feels strongly about his position there. I was, in some ways, surprised to hear him say that he doesn't have any regrets. Only because he really did throughout the election. And honestly, throughout his, you know, the final years of his political career seem incredibly, motivated and really in a very deep and honest way, motivated to try and prevent Donald Trump from coming back to power.
That was something that he talked about it when he ran in in the first time against Donald Trump with Charlottesville. He talked about it again, when, of course, it was clear Trump was going to run for reelection against him. But at the same time, I mean, we saw what played out. We saw American voters told us from the beginning, basically, hey, we think this guy isn't fit to serve another term. Do you think he should have regrets?
HAYS: I think that time will tell, right? And I think that time, he probably will have some regrets after some self-reflection. I think it's interesting to hear that because on the view, he was much more self-reflective. He took responsibility for Donald Trump winning. He said it was his fault.
So I do think it's interesting. I think today is an emotional day for him. It's the 10th anniversary of beaus death, so I think that he's probably shooting from the hip a little bit more than normal, and he's not as reflective as he was on "The View".
But I do think time will have. He will have more regrets. But I think that you have to be self-reflective there, and I just I'm not sure he's at that place yet.
HUNT: Jonah, what was your reaction to the way that President Biden was comporting himself today? I mean, there was a lot in his body language and tone of voice.
GOLDBERG: Yeah. Look, look, I think Biden, back when he was full of vim and vigor 30 years ago, is a very intellectually and politically insecure guy.
[16:40:03]
He is very thin skinned, always has been. The reputation of him as this avuncular, you know, grandpa figure was always a bit misaligned with the guy as he really is. And I find -- like, I want to be as polite about this as I can. I could not care less what Joe Biden thinks anymore. I didn't care that much when he was president. I certainly don't care now. And the idea that he's in denial this day and not in denial another
day about all this kind of stuff, as you put it, he laid out the benchmark for why, for what success or failure was, which was to stop Donald Trump from entering office.
He failed. He should have regrets on those terms and not make it about himself. But he doesn't. He's always made things about himself.
And you know, at the end of the day I doubt, you know, it was an interesting interview, but, like, I doubt there's a serious elected Democrat in the country who doesn't regret the fact that he ran again, not because they hate him or anything like it, but because he lost. And he set up Kamala Harris for failure to lose.
And that's what politics is about. And this personal sort of like, how does the president feel or the ex-president feel? And are we being fair to him?
It loses the fact that parties are about winning elections and that's it. And when they don't win elections, they should have regrets and try to learn from it.
HUNT: Lulu?
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yeah. Cosign. Yeah.
(LAUGHTER)
GOLDBERG: Mark it down.
HUNT: A lot to say.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: I don't know. Not much else I got to say about that.
HUNT: Yeah. I mean, the only thing I would say to, I mean, and, Jonah, I think everything that you've laid out there makes a lot of sense. Joe Biden is not the only politician with an ego that's too big for, whatever.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: No, 100, 100 percent. I mean, and I think, listen, I think the reason it matters is because we just saw in the Oval Office today, Donald Trump talking about, you know, the that pen and whether magically, that pen was writing things and Joe Biden didn't know about it, et cetera., et cetera. This is still an animating discussion on the right, certainly, and on the left about what did Joe Biden really do while he was in office and how he was -- if he was mentally competent or he wasn't. And so, I do think it is important.
I don't think that Democrats can simply just turn away and go, eh, it doesn't matter, I don't care. I mean, I was cosigning, generally speaking, the, you know, politicians need to win elections. But I do think it's important to continue to discuss this and try and figure out what went on.
HAYS: But what Democrats are saying and what Joe Biden are saying are two different things. So like I kind of agree with Jonah. I don't think we need to be worried about what Joe Biden feels anymore.
We need to move on as a party. We need to move on and figure out how we're going to win elections. And I think that's what Democrats need to be more self-reflective.
To be frank, I mean, I worked for him for a long time. I don't -- if he wants to not be self-reflective, that's fine. But we need to win elections because there are many generations ahead of me and behind me that are depending on the Democrats winning for the good of our country, for what we just saw in the Oval Office today. And so, I want the Democratic Party to be self-reflective.
HUNT: All right. Coming up next here, the new promise today from a reality-star-turned-convicted-felon-turned-pardon-recipient.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TODD CHRISLEY, FORMER REALITY TV PERSONALITY: You're placed in a position as a defendant to either bow down and kiss the of the Department of Justice and accept responsibility for things that you did not do in order to avoid a stronger sentence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:47:38]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISLEY: I had a -- I had a staff member that came to me and said, you've just been pardoned. And I just looked at him and he says, no, really, you've been pardoned. It's in the news.
I remember walking back from the phone and just feeling numb, not really knowing, and then after about ten minutes, all I could think about was the guy that I was leaving behind because I had made such wonderful relationships with those men.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: That was Todd Chrisley, the reality TV star who was convicted of tax fraud and bank crimes this week, one of a number of people pardoned by President Trump. And if anyone was wondering, despite being released from prison 24 hours ago, the Chrisleys have already started filming a new series. Almost all of those pardoned or granted clemency this week were accused of white-collar crimes, similar to those that Trump himself faced.
Where to start with this?
We were talking about the pardon power in the break here. Because Jonah Goldberg again, like we can put up the faces of people that the president has pardoned so far. He started out with the nearly 1,600 January 6th rioters represented there by QAnon shaman, this woman for wire fraud, Rod Blagojevich, Ross Ulbricht. Then there are a series of others.
And of course, President Biden pardoned his family on the way out the door. What does this group say to you about what the president is focused on here?
GOLDBERG: I think he likes the performative aspect of the pardon stuff. He likes the -- you know, the pardon power is one of the most explicit monarchical powers that was transferred over into the Constitution by the founders. And it -- because it's not reviewable and because it makes Trump seem bigger than the system and because it makes everybody talk about him. I think that's what he likes about it.
Other than that --
GARCIA-NAVARRO: No, I think there's something else there, which is that it is something explicitly that people have to go to him and ask --
GOLDBERG: Oh, for sure.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: -- for. It is a transactional thing.
GOLDBERG: I think that's right.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: And, we've seen in the system of government in this new administration that there's a lot of people that have to constantly go and be asking for things. It's like who you know and how you get connections. And that is very much.
GOLDBERG: It makes people supplicants. I agree that's part of the monarchical thing, is like, you know, you must bend the knee to the man and then he taps his fingers on you.
HUNT: Yeah. Well, I think I'm not sure that we actually produce the elements around it, but apparently joe exotic has been really wanting a pardon. And doing what? What you've suggested, but hasn't been getting one. And so he's been very public about his unhappiness around that.
I mean, Shermichael Singleton, let's watch a little bit.
So, Chrisley -- Mr. Chrisley, I guess looks a lot different than he did before, which I guess is really only relevant because he is a TV star. Let's watch what he said about his physical transformation, and we'll talk about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TODD: Yeah. I call it the body glow. I actually have more access to better products now that I'm out. You know, I think that it -- I had nothing to do other than to read and to work out. I haven't had the same effects that so many people leaving the prison system have had. So, I'm grateful for that. And maybe it's just all the residual Botox that never wore off.
(END VIDEO CLIP) HUNT: I mean, I just play that to go to the, you know, this is this president is definitely.
SINGLETON: Cosmetic surgery, I see that. I see that.
HUNT: Are you comfortable with all this?
SINGLETON: What I'm comfortable with and what I would prefer, if I'm being honest, is a second iteration of the First Step Act. I think the president has an amazing opportunity here, with Alice Johnson advising him to further reform our criminal justice system. Chrisley touched on it briefly when he talked about Black inmates. A lot of inmates who are poor, who are oftentimes over sentenced.
And so, if I were advising the president, if you really want to leave a mark on criminal justice, lets focus with Congress on a part two of that. I wouldn't have blanket pardons to anybody. The president obviously has the discretion, but I think there's an opportunity here to do something really amazing for a lot of people here.
HUNT: Yeah. And, Meghan, one of the things we were talking about earlier this week is that when Trump was asked publicly whether he would pardon the people who went after who targeted Gretchen Whitmer, the governor of Michigan, he wouldn't answer the -- I mean, he said, I'm going to look at it, right. He didn't rule it out.
Now, there's since been some comments that he apparently told her personally that he had but what would -- would that kind of a pardon potentially represent? How problematic is that in this context?
HAYS: I mean, I think its hugely problematic, right? It makes it very political. And I think that that's what these pardons are becoming. They're becoming much more political than they were intended. I think, to your point, there's a lot of opportunity to do a lot of good for over sentencing and a lot of people who are in jail unnecessarily or in prisons unnecessarily, but when you start getting into the politics of this and these people who have been convicted of crimes, that is an actual problem and that becomes a political retribution. And I don't think that's what these pardons were meant to be.
GOLDBERG: I mean, it's worth pointing out that the January 6th pardons fit almost perfectly Madison's description of what an impeachable offense would be to have to subordinate -- to suborn criminal support for your political ends from people, and then and then get rewarded them with pardons. Madison explicitly talks about that in the constitutional convention in Virginia ratifying convention.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: But we know that they are political. They are political. We have Ed Martin, who supposedly overseeing these pardons, and he basically said, no MAGA left behind. I mean, he wasn't talking about anything else. He was talking about politics.
SINGLETON: And, Kasie, the reason I mentioned the opportunity here, I'm thinking about Hispanic men, Black men, the president did fairly well with both groups in 2024. I'm trying to figure out how do you cement those groups going into midterms next year. HUNT: I'll just say we invite you for your Madison references.
(LAUGHTER)
HUNT: All right. Coming up, Taylor's revenge. We'll explain.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[[16:58:08]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAYLOR SWIFT, MUSICIAN (singing): I'll never find another like me --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Certainly hard to find anyone like Taylor Swift in the music industry. And now those in her loyal fan base. We can now listen to the original recordings of her first six albums with zero guilt. I'm sorry. What?
Taylor Swift bought the masters of her albums after a six-year fight that, of course, inspired the rerecords known as Taylor's version. Youve seen it on Spotify, probably. Even if you're not a Swiftie. The record shattering Eras Tour she also owns.
In a statement posted on her website, she said this, quote, all the music I've ever made now belong to me and all my music videos, all the concert films, the album art and photography, the unreleased songs, the memories, the magic, the madness, every single era, my entire life's work to say this is my greatest dream come true is actually being pretty reserved about it.
Am I the only Swiftie at this table?
GARCIA-NAVARRO: No.
HUNT: Okay. Yes.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: No, no, no.
HUNT: Because this is -- I think this news is amazing.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: It's amazing. It's such a journey for her. I mean, if you follow Taylor Swift, this has been the stuff of legend, and also inspiring. She refused to actually just take it, lump it. And she, you know, has like empowered herself. And now, its all come true for her.
And yes, you know, you can only have so much sympathy for Taylor Swift because she's a billionaire and she's like such a megastar. But I'm really happy about this --
SINGLETON: Kasie, from a business perspective, I have to salute her. I mean, there's been an argument in the music industry for a long time about intellectual property and how quickly can artists regain the rights of the songs that they have produced. Oftentimes written and record labels will say, well, until the debt is paid, you don't get those rights back, which is oftentimes 20, 30 years. And by that point, there's not any value left.
So, this might be precedent setting for a lot of other artists out there to challenge those music industries to say, hey, wait a minute here. I want the rights to my songs, rights to my videos.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Taylor is Taylor. I'm not sure that the record industry is going to change, but --
SINGLETON : Maybe --
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Maybe, maybe.
HUNT: She's a singular force.
All right. Phil Mattingly standing by for "THE LEAD".
Phil, how much Taylor in your house? Lots or not so much?
