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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt

House Speaker To CNN: No Epstein Votes Before August Recess; Dems Release Review Of 2024 Election & Loss To Trump; CNN Poll: 55 Percent Say Trump Has Gone Too Far When It Comes To Deporting Immigrants Who Live In The U.S. Illegally. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired July 21, 2025 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:05]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: The beloved drink has been both celebrated and mocked for igniting a pumpkin spice revolution. Ever since its launch 20 years ago, pumpkin spice yogurt, whiskey, even trash bags -- I didn't know about that. That's a thing, apparently.

What do you think? Where do you land on this?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: First of all, it's better warm, right? And do you want to drink a hot, you know, like a super hot --

KEILAR: In last August?

SCIUTTO: Yeah, in late August that tastes like Thanksgiving dinner?

KEILAR: But a lot of people do.

"THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT" starts now.

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: It's the delay versus the distraction. Is a new decision from House leaders going to be enough for the president to turn the corner on the Jeffrey Epstein saga?

Let's head into THE ARENA.

Right now, new reporting on the timeline for a key move in Congress. What House Speaker Mike Johnson is now telling CNN about a vote to force the release of files related to Epstein, as the measure gains support among Republicans.

Also this hour, the politics of the podcast. Why more and more Democrats are popping up in places that once were unthinkable, as the party sort of details what went wrong in November. We'll dig in.

Plus, the new numbers on one of the president's most controversial policies. What a majority of Americans now think about his efforts to deport undocumented immigrants.

(MUSIC)

HUNT: Hi, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. Welcome to THE ARENA. It's wonderful to have you with us on this Monday. As we come on the air. There are new signs for the president that the

backlash over the Jeffrey Epstein saga is very real and not going away.

Right now, there are two major developments on capitol hill a vote on a measure to force the White House to release all federal records related to Epstein now has enough Republican support in the House. At least 10 GOP lawmakers have now signed on, meaning that leadership has to hold a vote.

And just as that news was breaking, the House speaker, Mike Johnson, is telling CNN that he's not going to hold any vote on anything related to Epstein this week. Why does that matter? Well, this week is the last week that congress is scheduled to be working until September.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: We need the administration to have the space to do what it is doing.

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So, no vote -- no vote on this resolution before August recess?

JOHNSON: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: But it's clear that the president's weekend of trying to master the art of distraction did not pan out. He posted conspiracy theories over the 2016 election. He shared an apparent A.I. generated video of former President Obama being arrested in the Oval Office. And he stoked the flames of the culture wars and calling for various professional sports teams to change their names back to the ones that many had deemed offensive toward Native Americans.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. RO KHANNA (D-CA): This is the first time. First time in ten years since Donald Trump walked down the elevator that his base is cracking on my bill, on my bill to release the Epstein files. Not only do I have Republican Thomas Massie, I got Marjorie Taylor Greene. I got Lauren Boebert, I got Tim Buchheit. I said, it's an attack ad waiting to be written. Marjorie Taylor Greene sponsors Ro Khanna's legislation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: That was Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna Saturday in South Carolina, not his home state of California. Just for anybody that's keeping track there today.

Speaking of Marjorie Taylor Greene, the Republican congresswoman and fervent Trump supporter, posting that if the DOJ doesn't release more of the Epstein information, the president's supporters will no longer stand behind him, writing, quote, dangling bits of red meat no longer satisfies, end quote.

Now, that is a direct contrast to Steve Bannon, who we have previously and often on this show called the OG MAGA man, who is telling "The Washington Post" and "The New York Times" that in the past 24 hours, quote, MAGA is united, end quote. That's something that Bannon similarly told our Alayna Treene last week after that "Wall Street Journal" report broke.

All right. Our panel will be here, along with CNN senior White House correspondent Kristen Holmes and CNN chief congressional correspondent Manu Raju.

And, Kristen, I do want to start with you. Obviously, we heard, you know, we just walked through all the things we heard from the president this weekend. We're not about Jeffrey Epstein. And in many ways, it was Donald Trump's greatest hits for his MAGA base. Again, trying to throw out non-Epstein related bits of red meat. Where is the president's head today?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, I got to tell you, I mean, just listening to Speaker Johnson there, the image in my mind is him putting his finger into a dam that's about to break. You can see the swelling on one side, and he's just plugging the hole as long as he possibly can, because that is what we are hearing from these MAGA loyalists.

[16:05:00]

They want answers, and no one is going to be able to stand in their way. They continue to try, however, and as we saw, President Trump wants to talk about literally anything other than what happened with Jeffrey Epstein. The Epstein files. I mean, just taking a look at some of the things that he was posting about this weekend. And today he was talking about the six-month anniversary. Obviously, they want to be talking about what they've been doing for the six months.

He also weighed into the controversy around the Washington Commanders name, essentially saying that he wouldn't agree to any kind of a deal on a new stadium unless they changed their name back to the Redskins. At one point, he was promoting a new book by Mark Levin, someone he often promotes on his Truth Social. And then today, he even weighed in on the plea deal with the Idaho murderer.

I mean, he really wants to talk about literally anything but this. And we did just catch up with Karoline Leavitt, the press secretary asked her several questions. She punted this back to the attorney general, Pam Bondi, to Kash Patel. She was asked specifically why not release anything else? Why not just release everything?

She said, the president has told both the attorney general and the head of the FBI that if there's anything credible, that they should release it. Of course, the key word there being credible. Who gets to determine what exactly is credible?

The other part of that, we asked her about these reports that FBI agents had been told to flag anything mentioning President Trump's name. She said the White House was unaware that that was happening.

So, clearly, here, they want to move on. They want to be talking about something else. But right now, as you're seeing play out on Capitol Hill and as Manu is going to talk about, there is a big push to release more and to get more information out there.

HUNT: Absolutely.

And to that point, Manu Raju, you were there talking to Mike Johnson last hour. He seems to be with the White House in terms of trying to use the tools at his disposal to help them put this off, but the only reason this is a problem for him is that there are members of his conference who don't like what the White House is doing.

RAJU: Yeah. That is an issue here. But of course, he can schedule the votes in the House chamber. And before the end of this week, there was a question about whether he'd put a non-binding resolution on the floor calling for the release of the Epstein files, that non-binding resolution was part of a separate negotiation, a deal the speaker caught with a number of Republican holdouts who were holding up a separate bill dealing with spending cuts.

Ultimately, Johnson agreed to allow a house committee to advance that non-binding resolution on the Epstein files in order to win over those holdouts to pass that separate spending cuts bill. But there's been a question about whether Johnson would put on the floor of the house that resolution saying that the Epstein file should be released. So when I just caught up with the speaker, I tried to get him to answer directly whether or not he would put this on the floor before the house leaves for a summer recess, which begins at week's end.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNSON: Here's what I would say about the Epstein files. There is no daylight between the house Republicans, the House, and the president on maximum transparency. He has said that he wants all the files related to Epstein to be released. He's asked the attorney general to request the grand jury files of the court. All of that is in process right now.

My belief is we need the administration to have the space to do what it is doing. And if further congressional action is necessary or appropriate, then well look at that. But I don't think were at that point right now because we agree with the president.

RAJU: So, no vote -- no vote on this resolution before August recess?

JOHNSON: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: And I just asked the senate majority leader, John Thune, if he is satisfied with the administration's handling of this matter. He said, quote, as I said before, leave that up to the president, the attorney general and the FBI director. But, Kasie, the question is whether the Republican leadership can

actually block a vote from happening. Republican Thomas Massie of Kentucky is trying to get enough support to force a vote on the house floor calling for the release of these documents, though, that if that succeeds, to force that vote, Kasie. That's probably not going to happen until the fall at the earliest -- Kasie.

HUNT: All right. Manu Raju, Kristen Holmes, thank you both very much for that.

And our panel is here in THE ARENA. CNN political commentator, Republican strategist and pollster Kristen Soltis Anderson; CNN contributor, "New York Times" journalist and podcast host Lulu Garcia- Navarro, Democratic strategist Adrienne Elrod, and the former chief of staff to Vice President Mike Pence, Marc Short.

We're also joined by CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig, who will weigh in as well.

But, Marc Short, I would like to start with you, because this is a mess still. What is like how do you think this ends?

MARC SHORT, FOIRMER CHIEF OF STAFF TO VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: I think the only way it ends is for the president to release the files and to be transparent about it.

HUNT: You do?

SHORT: I do. I think that stepping back for a second, I think we need to remember that when Trump came on the scene in 2016, I think what drove a lot of people to him was he advocated sort of a belief, I'm the outsider. I'm going to go clean up. Government is hiding things from the American people. A lot of his supporters got behind that. And if you go back to last year's campaign, it's not just supporters, it's his current vice president, his attorney general, his head of the FBI, who all said and claimed there's a lot of nefarious information.

[16:10:04]

And we're going to get to the bottom of it. We're going to release it. And the arc narrative here is pretty remarkable to go from we're going to release it when you elect us to saying, I have the files on my desk to basically giving out some manila folders to influencers, to then saying there are no files to now saying, actually, this was all created by John Brennan and Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton.

And so that's a pretty amazing narrative arc in a matter of a short period of time. But I think that ultimately it's not going to end until he releases the files.

HUNT: And do you think he will?

SHORT: I think ultimately, he'll be pressured into doing it, because I think the people will demand the transparency.

HUNT: What do you think, Kristen? Youve seen some of this data. Have you started polling on Epstein yet? Because I know initially you were all taken a little bit by surprise, but now it's something that everyone is talking.

KRISTEN SOLTIS ANDERSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, yeah. I mean, initially this was the sort of story where I thought this is getting a lot of chatter in political circles. And it's -- it's not that -- it's not important one, because the gravity of what is alleged and in terms of Epstein's victims is very serious, but also, you know, even if it is only 5 percent of America, if it's a very, very, very loud and vocal and politically influential 5 percent of America, that makes this number one issue. It's worth talking about.

But I do think this is somewhat broken out of containment. You know, normally someone in my position says, well, the number one issue is cost of living. People think things are getting too expensive and Congress is right to focus on that rather than focusing on the Epstein files. But it has become something that people who are not super plugged into political news do seem to be more tuned into. And that makes this harder to sort of put the toothpaste back in the tube.

LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yeah. And I think what we're seeing is Epstein books are selling out. On Netflix, the Epstein documentary is, you know, has been being watched over and over again. So, I think exactly this the narrative arc has broken containment. I'm going to bring you two together and use those things.

The other thing I will say is just this one thing, as we were speaking, the "Associated Press" just sent a news alert saying that the FBI miraculously is just handing out all these files on the murder of I'm sorry, of Martin Luther King Jr. And so, suspicious timing.

I mean, it's all I'm going to say. I'm sure it's very welcome, but strange that the FBI would be releasing those files at this particular moment, isn't it?

HUNT: Well, and of course, Adrienne Elrod, there was the reporting over the weekend that the FBI was basically told to scrub Epstein files. Kristen Holmes for mentions of President Trump. Kristen Holmes reported a little bit on that. Karoline Leavitt was pressed there. I mean, it is to Marc's point.

I mean, Democrats have obviously spent a lot of time thinking about why is it that Donald Trump has so much appeal to people and this idea that it's almost as though it's the one instance where in the "us versus them" that President Trump has created? Trump is not an "us". He is a "them".

ADRIENNE ELROD, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: That's correct. And I mean that that is why. We talked about this on your show, I think last week. I've been kind of amazed by this because yes, it has been a priority of the MAGA base for a long time to release these files.

Donald Trump is their hero, but they are willing to let that sort of take a back seat if he is implicated in any way, shape or form. When these files are released, they're willing to, like, let his reputation be tainted. If there's something negative in these files. That's the one thing that I found very interesting.

But look, the bottom line is they've lost control of the narrative. This has become a giant mess. I mean, Donald Trump effectively controls the DOJ. He controls the FBI because he put his own people in there who are -- who have made it very clear their loyalty is to him.

So, if they don't release the files, it looks like Donald Trump is not releasing the files. Theres no daylight. It's not like a Joe Biden versus Merrick Garland separation of powers. This is essentially Donald Trump's DOJ. So, it's up to him whether or not the files are released.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: And I just don't understand why they haven't been. I mean, I really like, truly don't understand at this point. What they're saying is supposed to be happening. Is it like under audit and its tax returns from, you know, multiple years, like, what is the reason that this.

HUNT: Well, if you talk to Andy McCabe, its that there are plenty of names in there of people who may or may not be implicated.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Oh, I understand.

HUNT: I do take your -- I do take your overall point.

Marc Short, I mean the bottom line here and the reason why this is an us versus them conundrum for Donald Trump is that he and Epstein spent a ton of time together, right? I mean, that obviously the information came out Friday. We're now getting reports that they've barred "The Wall Street Journal" from the White House press pool today over that story in "The Journal", putting out this, you know, birthday card.

There are, you know, pictures of him and Melania and Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell, the fixer. There's -- this was a story in "The New York Times". They dug into this -- and they called it the headline inside the long friendship between Trump and Epstein. And they're writing about this property. It's a French mansion in Florida.

The two hypercompetitive men each had their lawyers bid on it. Trump came out ahead. Theres little public record of the two men interacting after that. So, they apparently had a break about this.

[16:15:00]

But then, Mr. Trump later told associates, yet another reason for breaking for Mr. Epstein around that time, his longtime friend, he said, acted inappropriately to the daughter of a member of Mar-a-Lago. And Mr. Trump felt compelled to bar him from the club. So, it's not only does Trump spend all his time associating with him, but then he knows what's going on and doesn't really say anything about it.

SHORT: Well, Kasie, you'll be glad to know that, thankfully, I can't testify to how much time the two of them spent together, but I -

HUNT: But from a political perspective. SHORT: I think -- I think that from Marjorie Taylor Greene's point, I

don't think that he really risked losing a lot of his support over this, but he does risk this continuing to be the dominant story that continues to drive until he actually releases it and gets this behind him. And so, that's what I -- that's why I think inevitably he will is because he's going to need to turn the page. Until he does, he's not going to.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: But this is the question. Maybe he can't because maybe what's in there, you know, might be damaging to him in a different way.

SHORT: Well, maybe, maybe. But I mean, I think as far as other people's names, that's never been a hindrance to him releasing.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: No, no.

SHORT: So I don't think that's --

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I don't think that's the issue.

HUNT: Elie Honig, let's go to you on this in terms of it being the issue or, you know, what is the issue exactly? Because there's -- there's also this DOJ motion. And, you know, we're talking here about Trump's DOJ.

The points been made -- is frequently made that Pam Bondi's DOJ very different in a lot of ways from how other DOJ's have operated in the past. Probably the White House has a lot of sway with what she's doing. They are asking a judge to release grand jury testimony in this, but my understanding is it's not -- they don't want all of it out there. What are they asking for? And do you think it's going to come out.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Right, Kasie. So, broadly speaking, to the points Marc and Lulu were just making, there's three ways that I can see any or all of this file coming out. Number one, DOJ currently has a request pending with a judge to release grand jury testimony. But that's a really narrow slice of any criminal file.

Number two, DOJ itself, the administration itself could just decide to turn over all the other stuff, all the non-grand jury materials, really at any moment, of course, they'd have to redact it, protect victim information. And then avenue three would be what you just laid out. If Congress

gets together and passes a resolution or demands or subpoenas, the information DOJ often resists those requests, but they could choose to turn it over to Congress.

So those are the three main ways this stuff could come out. But the biggest bucket there, the non-grand jury materials, all that is in the unilateral control of the president and the attorney general. They want to focus on the other stuff though.

HUNT: So, Elie, can I ask you and forgive me. This is definitely falls into the category of like layman's question about this stuff. But who knows who is aware of the extent to which Donald Trump is or isn't mentioned in these files? Who is in possession of that information right now?

HONIG: Only people within DOJ, only people within FBI. Who within DOJ and FBI I couldn't tell you, of course, but Pam Bondi can look at every little last word in that file. Kash Patel can look at every last word in that file. So those are the only two people I would tell you with any confidence, have the ability to know exactly who is mentioned in there. But as of this moment, it's almost entirely contained within DOJ. There's some stuff out in the public record between the Epstein prosecution, the Maxwell prosecution, and other documents that have come out. But that is just a very narrow fraction.

So, yeah, the ones with the knowledge here are the leaders of DOJ and the FBI.

HUNT: All right. Elie Honig, thank you very much for that. And I think it sort of puts a point on what we're talking about here. I really appreciate it.

All right. Coming up next, we're going to talk with a member of the House who's probably not too happy about the speaker's call to push any vote on the Epstein matter to September. We will ask California Congressman Eric Swalwell about that when he is here live.

Plus, what Democrats now say about 2024 and what the party isn't addressing as a part of their so-called election autopsy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY), MINORITY LEADER: Trump administration officials are now in a position to release the Epstein files. Does any of that, in your view, have anything to do with President Joe Biden? Donald Trump is running scared and the Trump administration is running scared. What are they hiding from the American people? Release the files.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: That, of course, the House Democratic leader, Hakeem Jeffries.

Joining us now to discuss this and more in THE ARENA is Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell of California. He is a member of the House Judiciary Committee.

Congressman, great to see you. Thank you very much for being here.

REP. ERIC SWALWELL (D-CA): My pleasure.

HUNT: So, the House Speaker Mike Johnson has basically said he is not going to hold a vote on a measure that would call for the release of these files until after Congress returns from August Recess. Why do you think he's doing that?

SWALWELL: Because Donald Trump doesn't want the files. And so, he's learned the I'll do it in two weeks trick from Donald Trump. But everyone wants to see the Epstein files. MAGA wants to see it because they think Donald Trump is lying to them, and Democrats want to see it for the reason we would want to see anything like this. Transparency, and that it's about protecting the most vulnerable in our community.

This is about women. Many teenage girls who were victims. And so, that's our interest in this crusade.

HUNT: Congressman, the president has blamed President Biden, former President Biden and other Democrats for these files not being released.

Do you think would it be helpful if President Biden called for the Epstein files to be released?

SWALWELL: I mean, I think it's comical that, you know, Jeffrey Epstein was indicted and died when Donald Trump was president.

[16:25:05]

And actually, the Biden administration convicted the person who helped him, Ms. Maxwell.

And so, I think Donald Trump is looking for any reason to not take personal accountability. And even if you think that's true, well, guess what, Donald Trump, you're the president now. You have the files now. And women, frankly, more than anyone, are calling bs on this because over the last decade, no one has consistently had it worse from anyone in America than women and Donald Trump. They've seen their rights taken away by Donald Trump, and it makes sense that they are calling BS on this right now as he again tries to bury them and shirk his own responsibility.

HUNT: Congressman, I want to change gears and ask you about something that some news that came out of the Democratic National Committee, they are looking at the results of the 2024 presidential election, trying to figure out what went wrong. But "The New York Times" reports this, that the so-called autopsy of 2024, the audit is, expected to avoid the questions of whether former President Biden should have run for reelection in the first place, whether he should have exited the race earlier than he did, whether former Vice President Kamala Harris was the right choice to replace him. Nor is the review expected to revisit key decisions by the Harris campaign.

I think my question to you is, what are you going to learn from an audit like this?

SWALWELL: Well, I'm in THE ARENA, so to speak. So, I guess I'm on the right show. So I don't have the luxury of doing audits. I'm going to Republican districts and doing town halls where they won't do town halls.

I'm hearing from veterans at these town halls because no president has fired more veterans than Donald Trump, that they care about affordability. They care about their health care, and they care about being respected.

But I think the answer is probably you can't go back in time and change that decision, which, of course, was consequential to the outcome. So why don't we focus on what people expect from us right now, which is an America that you can afford, afford your health care, afford your kids' education, afford to retire, and most importantly, in this great country, afford to dream.

HUNT: Congressman, if you could give us just one line. I mean, what did you learn from the 2024 election? What should Democrats not do next time?

SWALWELL: Well, we have to always be on. And let me just give you an example. Most people say that the biggest mistake that Kamala Harris made was saying that she wouldn't do anything different than Joe Biden when she went on "The View". I don't think that was the biggest mistake. And candidates, you know, trip up all the time.

I think the mistake was that there were many days that would pass before she did another major interview. And Donald Trump makes three mistakes an hour, but he's always on.

And so, when you're always communicating not just to cable news, but to local news, to podcasters, to influencers, always on means you're always honest. And we have -- we have the values on our side, and now we just have to be in more places, more spaces. And that's why we're going to win the midterms in just under 18 months.

HUNT: So, speaking of the midterms, President Trump came out in support of redistricting in Texas. I mean, were at the point right where the map for the house of representatives, in which you serve. I mean, a smaller and smaller and smaller slice of it is actually competitive, right?

There are fewer and fewer members of the House who have to fight tooth and nail to keep their seats with someone of the other party. Every single time the president has come out in support of gerrymandering in Texas, which of course, run by Republicans potentially helps them.

Some have called for Democrats to do the same thing in blue states. Your home state of California might be a prime example. Would you like to see your state leaders do that?

SWALWELL: Yes. And more than what they're doing in Texas. And by the way, I want to get rid of dirty maps and dirty money in our politics. But too often Democrats are fighting these battles with one hand tied behind our back. It's usually the upper hand.

And so, if we tell the voters that were doing this because the guys that took away your health care in California, 2 million people lose their health care under the president's bill, that the only way to reverse that and get your benefits back in place is to have a majority. And he's trying to make it harder by rigging the election in many of these states. And so we're not going to be helpless in this endeavor. And the

voters, by the way, if you tell them when you have the majority in the House and the Senate and you have the White House, you will have independent redistricting, you will get rid of dirty outside money. They trust that you have to engage with the other side, with the means that they are engaging. And that's why I think its a very dangerous game to take these seats from Texas, because we can do more damage in California.

HUNT: All right. Congressman Eric Swalwell, appreciate that very much. Thanks very much for spending some time with us. I hope you come back soon.

SWALWELL: My pleasure. Yeah, of course.

HUNT: All right. Coming up next here, a look at how Democrats are hoping to do perhaps what the congressman was just talking about, trying to podcast their way back to the White House.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:34:25]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MEGYN KELLY, PODCAST HOST: Do you believe boys should be able to play in girls' sports?

RAHM EMANUEL (D), FORMER U.S. CONGRESSMAN: No.

KELLY: Can a man become a woman?

EMANUEL: Can a man become a woman? Not. No.

KELLY: Thank you.

EMANUEL: No.

KELLY: That's so easy. Why don't more people in your party just say that?

EMANUEL: Because I'm now going to go into a witness protection plan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Because now I'm going to go into a witness protection program.

That was Rahm Emanuel, potential 2028 Democratic candidate for president, among many other things. He is just one of the many Democrats who are popping up left and right on podcasts across the political spectrum this summer.

[16:35:03]

The party's aspiring leaders, seeming to try to revamp the Democratic brand and close that online attention gap that helped elevate conservative voices throughout the 2024 campaign.

And, Adrienne Elrod. I mean, like Swalwell was making this point, actually, he was like, what you got to do is be everywhere. You got to be on all the time. Because, look, the reality is we're seeing this, you know, our so much of what people are getting now is on their phone. It's personal. It's right here.

What do you make of what Rahm Emanuel said there? First of all, because that seems like learning two lessons at one time, right? He's talking to Megyn Kelly, right, and he is taking a policy position that he and a number of other Democrats clearly think helped lose the election for you in 2024. But that he clearly recognizes is going to be difficult with the base of the party.

ELROD: Yeah. No, I think first of all, I think its incredibly smart that Rahm and Gavin Newsom and other party leaders are going out and have these conversations. So, it's sort of going into the belly of the beast, because the bottom line is this, Kasie, you know, when Kamala Harris was filling arenas with 15,000 people, that was exciting. That ignited and energized the base of the party. But we were speaking to the people who were voting for her.

If we're going to win back voters, if we're going to narrow that gap between the 1.5 percentage of percent of Americans that decided this election ultimately and then the national vote, that was the divide between Donald Trump and Kamala Harris, we have to go into the belly of the beast and start having these conversations.

And Megyn Kelly's audience reaches a whole different audience than, you know, watching a show on MSNBC or talking to a more progressive podcast. So, I think it's incredibly smart. I think it's very necessary. And I think, again, if we're going to go try to get back some of these working-class voters, you know, I bet there's some Democrats out there who listen to Megyn Kelly's show.

I bet there are some moderate independent voters that are tuning in to the Joe Rogan podcast. I know that there is for a fact. So, we have to go out there and have these conversations. And I applaud Rahm. I applaud Gavin Newsom, I applaud other people in the party who are doing that.

HUNT: Marc, you look like you're itching to jump in on this.

SHORT: I don't -- I don't question Adrienne's diagnosis for the Democrat Party, but I still think to this day that I don't think the Trump campaign gets enough credit for actually targeting young male voters who are unlikely to vote. I think the country was pretty divided, and they're pretty much camped between Trump and anti-Trump. But I think that they did a very effective job in going in and finding people who listen to these podcasts who are not traditional voters.

And I was skeptical that there was actually that large of an audience for it. But they found it and they turned him out. And I think they deserve a lot of credit for that.

ELROD: Can I say something really quickly? I completely agree with you, Marc. I mean, we call those sporadic voters, you know, voters who don't necessarily turn out in other elections except for presidentials. A lot of the people that voted for Trump this last election were first time voters. And we cannot take those for granted.

Those are young men in particular, that you're talking about, college age students 18 to 25 years old. We cannot take them for granted. We can't just put them off to the side and say, were going to try to make up for that by getting more Latino voters back. We're like, we have to figure out how to communicate with them. And that is exactly why going on these podcasts, meeting voters where they are, is an important first step.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Can I just say, as the resident podcaster at the table, I'm all for this? Yay, podcasting. Come on. You know, on my show, the interview, any all podcasts are great.

SHORT: I haven't been --

GARCIA-NAVARRO: The thing about this though, is as follows. You also need someone who excites people. It's not just about flooding the zone. It's not just about going and sitting down with, you know, anyone who will take you. It is about actually having a message that resonates. Connecting with, knowing who you're trying to connect with, and figuring out what you stand for.

And so, you know, that I think, is what everyone is looking at when they're looking at all these Democrats going out and auditioning on all these podcasts. Because at the end of the day, voters aren't stupid. They're listening to you.

And if you're prevaricating, if you are, you know, trying to, you know, spin a tale. If you're just doing something performative, it just isn't going to isn't going to carry --

SOLTIS ANDERSON: So are you saying that Governor Beshear is not as compelling as Miley Cyrus with whom you did a very exciting podcast interview?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I love Miley Cyrus, and I would never diss Governor Beshear, who I have not had the opportunity to interview. But of course, I mean, you know, at the end of the day, yes, Miley Cyrus is going to pull in a few more views than other people. But I also interviewed J.D. Vance, and he's very good at these kinds of interviews, very comfortable, very fluid, very interesting.

And so, this is the thing. It isn't about a celebrity versus a politician. It's about which politician can bring a little bit of celebrity.

SOLTIS ANDERSON: But I also think the political versus nonpolitical dynamic is important because, you know, I'm so glad these folks are going on. We say we call them right wing podcasts. And the chyron here. Right. But what I really think people need to do is be going on podcasts that aren't political at all, not just right wing, left wing. Because really, what you're doing there, like I think a lot about when Gavin Newsom went and was debating. on DeSantis and I believe Fox News.

And the idea there, I don't know if it was for Gavin Newsom to win over a bunch of Fox viewers, but rather to show I can go into the lion's den and win.

And so, to the extent that that's your goal, that's fair. But I also think a lot of these voters who are the like, detached from the process, maybe I don't like either party. They're not listening to right-wing or left-wing podcasts. Youve got to be where people are at. Right wing podcasts, I don't know how many actual Democratic primary voters are there, but there are lots of other places you can find them besides traditional media.

HUNT: Including Joe Rogan, which was mentioned as well.

All right. Coming up next here, were going to take a look back at the life and career of the actor Malcolm Jamal Warner of "The Cosby Show" after he died suddenly at the age of 54.

Plus, the reaction and blame from the Trump administration after an off-duty Customs and Border Protection officer was shot in an apparent robbery gone wrong.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM HOMAN, BORDER CZAR: Cities are now our priority. We're going to flood the zone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:45:22]

HUNT: All right. Welcome back.

Malcolm-Jamal Warner, the actor who starred as Theo Huxtable on "The Cosby Show", has died. A source close to the actor tells CNN that the 54-year-old drowned while on vacation with his family.

Malcolm-Jamal Warner rose to stardom in the late '80s by playing a teen who was always caught up in the expected hijinks.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MALCOLM-JAMAL WARNER, ACTOR: Really, it's nothing that would interest you, just a bunch of cars in there.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It seems to me that there's a lot more than cars in here. On every page, there's some woman draped on top of an automobile. This is obscene.

WARNER: No, mom, it's not. All the women are dressed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What about the woman in the back seat of the convertible? WARNER: She has on a bikini.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't see any bikini.

WARNER: No, mom. It's there. See? It's tiny. So when the car goes fast, it cuts down on the wind drag.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: CNN's Lisa France joins us, joins us now.

Lisa, tell us about his career, what he meant to people who loved this show and loved the character that he played. And, of course, what we're learning about this tragic -- his tragic death.

LISA RESPERS FRANCE, CNN ENTERTAINMENT REPORTER: Yeah, Kasie, it's wild because that scene actually is full circle because he's, of course, costarring with Phylicia Rashad and Malcolm-Jamal Warner actually got his start appearing on shows like "Fame", which starred Phylicia Rashad's sister, Debbie Allen.

We see that great scene right there of him in that famous Gordon Gartrell shirt, which everyone is sharing that scene today. He was so beloved, and he also was able to transition from being the beloved character as Theo on a show which was groundbreaking the first time we had ever seen an African American family portrayed in such an affluent way, with a mother who was a lawyer and a father who was a doctor. But he was able to transition from that as a child star to do other shows. He was also equally beloved in "Malcolm and Eddie".

He appeared on "The Resident". He had a podcast, "Not All Hood", which he launched not that long ago, which was about continuing to uplift and let people know that African Americans are not just a monolith, something that he said, you know, and what we know is that he unfortunately died while he was on vacation. He drowned. We learned that he was -- you know, people attempted to help him and they were not able to save him. And it's just a tragic, tragic death at such a young age.

And it feels like, especially in the black community, that we have lost a family member. Kasie, people are just devastated because he meant so much to black Hollywood, but also to just people who love pop culture. Period. "The Cosby Show" was so incredible and so was Malcolm-Jamal Warner. He was just a fabulous actor who was able to have such an amazing career where so many other child stars did not. So, it's a huge loss and people are still trying to process it, Kasie.

HUNT: Yeah, and our condolences to his family and of course, to everyone who loved him.

Lisa France, thanks very much for that report. Really appreciate it.

We're going to turn back to politics now. Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem is blaming New York Mayor Eric Adams and, quote, sanctuary city policies for the shooting of an off-duty customs and border protection officer in an apparent robbery gone wrong. A person of interest was taken into custody and identified as Miguel

Mora, an undocumented immigrant who entered the country illegally in 2023 with an extensive criminal history, including accusations of domestic violence and felony assault.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRISTI NOEM, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: Miguel Francisco Mora Nunez is and has a rap sheet that is a mile long, and there's absolutely zero reason that someone who is scum of the earth like this should be running loose on the streets of New York City.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: All right. The injured CBP officer was not in his uniform at the time of the shooting, and is in stable condition. Theres no indication at this time that he was targeted because of his employment, according to the NYPD.

Our panel is back here.

Lulu. this again, were underscoring there does not seem to be a situation here where this person was targeted because of the job that he did. But obviously, this crime has occurred in a context that is extraordinarily heightened. And the tension around all of this is so incredibly high. And you could see Kristi Noem focusing in on that.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yeah. I mean, this is a terrible thing that has occurred. This man should obviously never have been out on the streets. I think he was taken into custody and released about four different times.

And this is the point that I think the administration makes. And I think this is a point, by the way, that resonates with regular Americans, which is how did this person get into the country?

[16:50:01]

And then how did this person remain in the country?

And so, they're talking about sanctuary cities. They say this is, you know, a perfect example of why sanctuary cities don't work. And they're vowing to put more people on the streets.

So it's a terrible thing. And absolutely, I think the context is bigger. I think what we're seeing is one incident and the administration taking actions that a lot of people in this country are now very worried about. I mean, polling is showing that where Donald Trump was positive on immigration, now most of the country is against his immigration policies, and that is because not because of the terrible actions of this particular man, but because of things that are happening, for example, in detention centers in Florida.

Human Rights Watch just came out with a report that has shown terrible conditions in these places. And so, people are uncomfortable with the manner in which this is being done. HUNT: Let's look at some of that polling, because we can put up our

CNN polling, which is kind of like with like compared to February, 45 percent of Americans in February said that the presidents deportation policy at that point had gone too far. Now, remember, he was sworn in on January 20th. Okay? So you're seeing some of our national political divide.

But what's interesting is the change since then, a 10 percent swing, which when Kristen Soltis Anderson, we think about elections, is an enormous change.

SOLTIS ANDERSON: It is. And I think there's a couple of things going on here.

First, when people perceive that the border is in crisis, they're much more willing to say, I will accept the administration doing things that might otherwise make me a little queasy, because we've got to get the situation under control. And so, in some sense, because we've now seen a really significant decline in things like border crossings, et cetera. There's now the pendulum swinging to where there is no longer a sense of heightened concern that there's a crisis.

People say, well, Trump is in charge. He seems to be getting his arms around this. Now, my appetite for the more extreme measures is starting to go down, and people really do differentiate between folks who may have broken the law by virtue of how they're in this country to begin with.

And those who have broken the law in other ways, in addition to that. And there is this good versus bad guy type sense. Hey, this is a bad guy. I'm okay with him being deported, and I don't care much about his rights would sort of be what your average voter might say. But that's not the same as some of these more sympathetic cases that are also grabbing headlines.

HUNT: Well, and I mean, marc short, it does seem to be a difference too, between I mean, the president has an argument to make on the border, right, that under President Biden, there were, however, many border crossings a day. Trump wins the election, gets sworn in, they drop dramatically.

Now. I mean, we can certainly discuss why that is, but clearly people stopped wanting to come or stopped trying to in the face of the president's border policies. But that's distinct from deportation policies as well. And we've seen them. Do you know, the question has always been, okay, what are you going to do after you get all of the criminals?

I mean, this is also evidenced by the way that, you know, they're sweeping up people who are working at home depot, and yet they still haven't been able to catch a guy like this.

SHORT: I don't know how really distinct they are. Casey. I think the reality is the presidents team believes that the coverage on the deportations helps to discourage people from trying to get into the country in the first place. And so, in many cases, it is part of their strategy to help get the border crossings down. I think it was one of the central reasons he was elected in 2024 was to for return to the policies that helped secure the border.

I think he also knows that to their point that when you personify cases like Laken Riley, a lot of Americans can agree with that. And it's -- and if they can make that the driver of the conversation, as opposed to people who are working in the fields, then I think that that plays stronger to their point of why we need to do this. But I do think in many cases, the coverage of deportations is part of their strategy to discourage people from coming to the border in the first place.

HUNT: Well, and, Adrienne, again, we've seen these numbers move, but also, how can Democrats defend a guy like this one who shot this, this off-duty CBP officer being in the country?

ELROD: Yeah, I mean, they can't I mean, and this is kind of the rub and the challenge, I think that both Democrats have and of course, the administration has too. I think Lulu hit the right point, which is, you know, people want to see people who are not here in this country legally deported until it's your next door neighbor who's lived next to you for 45 years, and she's a grandmother of four, until it's the person who, you know, has been working at your local deli for the last, you know, 15, 20 years. People who are contributing to their community in a very positive way.

When you start to go after them, I mean, there were reports that they were sending ice agents, undercover ICE agents into fancy, you know, neighborhood parks in Washington, D.C., and trying to round up nannies. And that turns people off. And that is not an effective strategy.

HUNT: There were some questions about what that was having been on the receiving end of some of that particular information, I'm not sure it was what you're outlining. It certainly not what CNN reports.

ELROD: Still, the rumor mill.

HUNT: But I can understand why -- yes, there's a certain amount of fear, Shall we say.

ELROD: Exactly, that's been pervasive.

All right. Coming up next here, something totally different. How Coldplay is trying to avoid another awkward Jumbotron moment.

[16:55:08]

Awkward doesn't even begin to cover it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS MARTIN, COLDPLAY FRONTMAN: We're going to use our cameras and put some of you on the big screen. (END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: The Coldplay frontman Chris Martin, giving concertgoers plenty of notice. They might appear on the jumbotron after this moment. I'm sure you've seen it from last week. Yep, this was the now former CEO of Astronomer and the tech company's head of HR caught snuggling. But not just snuggling, then diving out of the way, completely hiding. The CEO has since resigned, and I'm sure you've seen one of the many memes poking fun at the viral moment. T

his one, though, got to love it. Friday's Phillies game. The Philly fanatic caught cozying up to another mascot during the kiss cam.

Jake Tapper is standing by for "THE LEAD".