Return to Transcripts main page
CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt
Source: Ghislaine Maxwell To Opposed Unsealing Grand Jury Material; House Speaker Shuts Down Chamber To Block Epstein Vote; Heavy Metal Icon Ozzy Osbourne Dies At 76. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired July 22, 2025 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[16:00:00]
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: I think I'm going to blink with that extra time. Yeah.
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: I'm going to sleep.
SCIUTTO: Okay. You're going to sleep that extra one point --
KEILAR: Extra millisecond and a quarter, but it's actually really important because, you know, time is set to very specific --
SCIUTTO: It's true.
KEILAR: You know, these specific parameters.
SCIUTTO: And I got to adjust my watch to catch up.
KEILAR: I mean, your watch is just all in arrears is the issue. It's out of sorts.
SCIUTTO: I'll be 1.34 milliseconds late.
KEILAR: "THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT" starts right now.
(MUSIC)
KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: It's the accomplice versus the DOJ.
Will grand jury material about Jeffrey Epstein ever be released?
Let's head into THE ARENA.
Right now, new reporting on the DOJ's effort to unseal parts of the Epstein investigation. A key figure in the case now making a call about whether she'll fight the administration's request.
Plus, new moves by President Trump and the speaker of the House. The president's first comments since that "Wall Street Journal" report, and why the House speaker is abruptly canceling votes and moving up August recess.
Also this hour, the death of one of the biggest names in rock and roll, an icon of heavy metal. Ozzy Osbourne has died at the age of 76. (MUSIC)
HUNT: Hi, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. Welcome to THE ARENA. It's wonderful to have you with us on this Tuesday.
As we come on the air. We are following breaking new developments in multiple efforts to keep secret details in the Jeffrey Epstein case secret. First, this hour, new reporting on the woman now at the center of the case. Epstein's longtime associate and convicted sex trafficker Ghislaine Maxwell.
A source now telling CNN that she will oppose the effort by the Trump Justice Department to unseal some parts of some grand jury materials. And just a few hours ago, a judge told the DOJ that he needs more information. By Tuesday on why exactly they want this particular information released.
Those legal developments making it clear that the drama over Epstein and the files of the investigation into him are now basically consuming all three branches of our government. The president and his Republican allies in Congress are desperately trying to move on, even as the Justice Department makes a new move to talk with the woman who was at Epstein's right hand for years.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: The deputy Attorney General has reached out to Ghislaine Maxwell's attorney, asking for a new interview.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Yeah, I don't know about it, but I think it's something that would be -- sounds appropriate to do, yeah.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: And that was it. That was where his comments on Epstein stopped.
So, what happened next after that sentence? The president launched into what was basically the on-camera version of what we have been seeing on his social media over the past few days. And it began with a full-throated attack against former President Obama.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The witch hunt that you should be talking about is they caught President Obama absolutely cold, Tulsi Gabbard, what they did to this country in 2016, starting in 2016, but going up all the way, going up to 2020 and the election. They tried to rig the election, and they got caught.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: The president there referencing new intelligence documents released last week by Tulsi Gabbard. She claims it's evidence that Obama administration officials manufactured the notion that Russia interfered in the 2016 election. Our sources describe her claim about these materials as, quote, wildly misleading and say it represents what the intelligence community actually found when a Senate investigation led by Republicans looked into all of this in 2020.
Now, it's not just the president trying to find a way out of this. Republican leaders in Congress are, too. They are getting out of dodge, quite literally.
Today, the House Speaker abruptly just moved up August recess canceled votes this week in an apparent effort to try and blunt the growing momentum behind a bipartisan push on a measure to force the release of the Epstein files.
Now, it is entirely unclear whether Johnsons move here can actually make it all go away for his president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. THOMAS MASSIE (R-KY): Dogs don't bark at parked cars, right? This bill is moving. This is coming to a vote.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: My panel is here to weigh in on this yet again. We're also going to start with CNN's senior White House correspondent, Kristen Holmes, and CNN chief congressional correspondent, Manu Raju.
Kristen, let me start with you. We heard a little bit of what the president said there today about former President Obama. And we here at THE ARENA just got a statement in from the former president's office, and we're going to read that to you.
So, they say this quote, "Out of respect for the office of the presidency, our office does not normally dignify the constant nonsense and misinformation flowing out of this White House with a response.
[16:05:11]
But these claims are outrageous enough to merit one. These bizarre allegations are ridiculous, and a weak attempt at distraction. Nothing in the document issued last week undercuts the widely accepted conclusion that Russia worked to influence the 2016 presidential election, but did not successfully manipulate any votes. These findings were affirmed in a 2020 report by the bipartisan Senate Intelligence Committee led by then Chairman Marco Rubio."
That comes from Patrick Rodenbush in President Obama's office.
So, Kristen, I feel like I'm flashing back to when Trump was helicoptering to New Hampshire and Barack Obama was at the podium releasing his birth certificate, because it really does seem like we have been transported back to that time because President Trump doesn't want to talk about Jeffrey Epstein anymore.
What is your latest reporting?
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, that's true. And President Obama might want to get ready to continue to respond, because I am told that this is just the beginning of what Gabbard intends to release, that there are more documents, more related to Russia. So, this might be an ongoing theme.
Now, President Trump, both publicly and behind the scenes, has been complaining about why exactly everyone wants to keep talking about Epstein. Just moments ago, he posted this on Truth Social. He said, "We had the greatest six months of any president in the history of our country, and all the fake news wants to talk about is the Jeffrey Epstein hoax."
It has been obvious that President Trump wants to talk about literally anything but Jeffrey Epstein. He has pushed conspiracy theories. He has discussed various accomplishments in office. He has put videos on social media that have literally nothing to do with anything going on in the country currently.
But nothing was more clear than when President Trump was asked specifically about this unsealing of the grand jury documents and the fact that the Department of Justice wanted to sit down with Maxwell.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Yeah, I don't know about it, but I think it's something that would be, sounds appropriate to do. Yeah.
REPORTER: Do you have any concern that your deputy attorney general is your former attorney would be conducting the interview, given --
TRUMP: No, I have no concern.
The witch hunt that you should be talking about is they caught President Obama, absolutely cold, Tulsi Gabbard, what they did to this country in 2016 -- starting in 2016. But going up all the way, going up to 2020 and the election.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: And, Kasie, one thing to note here, this has put the situation in this case, this investigation and the memo from the Department of Justice has put the White House in a position it doesn't often find itself, which is on the defensive.
Now, they had a brief moment where they felt like they were bringing the MAGA base together at the end of the week last week with that "Wall Street Journal" story, with the fact that they sued "The Wall Street Journal", they saw the different members of the base coming to President Trump's defense. But it seems as though that is waning, because what were hearing from these MAGA loyalists and from these Republican lawmakers is they want more information and they want it quickly.
One of the most interesting things I heard actually came from our Manu Raju up on the hill, who was talking to Republican Senator Josh Hawley yesterday, who said his constituents are calling him and that they want more information about Jeffrey Epstein. So, not going away anytime soon, Kasie.
HUNT: Indeed, Kristen.
Okay, so, Manu, take us through all the drama that's been unfolding in the house over the release of this, because it really is a place where we are seeing the break between many of the president's MAGA supporters and the president's refusal to release the files.
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONLA CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, and the house is completely paralyzed. There was an effort to try to get this, get legislation, really. The Republican agenda passed over the next several days. A number of bills have been teed up before they head out to recess, but they were unable to move forward with their legislative agenda because of a gridlock in the House Rules Committee. That is a powerful committee that must process legislation, approve the procedural votes first before they can actually move on these bills on the floor.
But because Democrats have tried to push efforts related to Jeffrey Epstein to release those files in the committee, and Republicans, particularly those MAGA loyalists, did not want to keep voting those down, they essentially ground to a halt.
And as a result, the speaker of the house said, it's time to go home for recess, saying that he would send home lawmakers back to their districts this Wednesday rather than Thursday, essentially punting this issue into the fall. But I can tell you, in talking to both conservatives and more moderate members, there is a growing demand for a vote to release all the information, including from one single swing district Republican Don Bacon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. DON BACON (R-NE): I do support transparency. I'm willing to vote on a bill -- should be a standalone bill. So, I think -- let's vote on transparency. Put everything out. I think -- if there's anything hidden, it's probably in the court system, but we should ask for it.
RAJU: What do you make of the administration's handling of this? I mean, they're saying that all this is going to go out and come out and then backtracked on it?
[16:10:03]
BACON: Well, they were -- they misled people to think there was a lot more there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: And by sending the House home, also, Johnson can avoid a vote being pushed by Congressman Thomas Massie of Kentucky. He is the one who is trying to circumvent the Republican leadership and get enough signatures, a majority of the House, to force a vote in the full House on a binding measure to call for the release of all the Epstein files. But, Kasie, with the House going on recess, Congressman Massie cannot
collect those signatures until the house returns back from recess in the fall, meaning that any vote on that issue will wait until the fall, and we'll see whether the momentum continues to build over the recess this summer -- Kasie.
HUNT: I guess we shall see. It often works to diffuse things, but this one has been persistent.
Kristen Holmes, Manu Raju, thank you both very much.
Our panel is now here in THE ARENA. CNN legal analyst Elliot Williams, CNN political analyst, national political reporter for "Axios", Alex Thompson, CNN political commentator, former Biden White House communications director Kate Bedingfield, and CNN senior political commentator Scott Jennings.
Welcome to all of you. Thank you very much for being here.
Scott Jennings, is this going to work? Is Mike Johnson's attempt to get out of dodge going to help defuse all this for the president?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Reminds me of the scene in "Monty Python" run away, run away --
HUNT: Run away, run away, run away.
JENNINGS: Which, you know, honestly. I feel his and the president's frustration here for the president. You know, he wants to talk about all the things he's done over six months, which is, and you talk to the White House, they've just clicked off promise after promise that they've delivered on.
And then for Johnson, he's trying to pass bills. He's got things to do. And now his entire operation has been held up over this issue. And he's trying to be deferential to the White House because, you know, what does Trump said? Put the grand jury stuff out, which I know that's tied up with the judge.
HUNT: But some of the grand jury stuff out.
JENNINGS: And then he said if they have credible information, that can also be released. So, I think he's in a little bit of a box here where he doesn't want to get ahead of or on top of what Trump has asked the Department of Justice to do.
So, it's prickly. I mean, what the what's the result for Republican voters out there? Is that the Republicans who control Congress are paralyzed right now. They've done the bulk of the president's agenda. But there's more to do. And now, Epstein is sucking up all the oxygen.
KATE BEDINGFIELD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: But they're paralyzed by a problem of their own making. I mean, it was Trump's attorney general who stood up and who said on TV that the list of clients was on her desk, and they handed out the binder to the influencers. I mean, they raised the public stakes on this. I think the other thing to think about is there's a long history of
recess, turning the temperature up on an issue, not down. You're going to have people, you know, you heard don bacon saying in his swing district, he's hearing from people.
So, these members are going to go home. They're going to hear from their constituents. I suspect they're going to come back with more fire in the belly and not less to take this.
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: And remember, the town halls, it's a month of -- remember those images of folks getting hollered at these town halls. And I think we'll see a lot of --
HUNT: Yeah, it can help tone it down when the members are fighting with each other. Right? They've been trapped in the Capitol together for too long. But when you go home and it's constituents you're hearing from and they're yelling at you, it's going to make it worse when you come back.
Alex --
ALEX THOMPSON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: And people -- and people forget that town halls are usually much more consequential when its members of their own party, are the ones that are yelling at their constituents rather than, and this is a case where you're going to have the base of the Republican Party yelling at Republicans.
JENNINGS: And remember, though, the base, they might yell at the Republican members of congress. They are not, in my opinion, yelling at or angry with Trump. If you look at the polling right now, he continues to rise even since the beginning of this Epstein, you know, tempest, he's going up with his own base. So, they're largely happy with the president and the things he's done.
So, the members of congress may catch the brunt of the frustration. I guess we'll see what happens in the courts over the next six weeks. Maybe something will happen that will relieve the pressure.
HUNT: Yeah. I mean, I take your point on the one hand, Scott, but when we heard sound when we went to that Turn -- when CNN's Donie O'Sullivan went to that Turning Point USA conference, he came back with, you know, people saying, well, Trump has turned into the deep state. I mean, I think this could --
JENNINGS: I was there. I was in Tampa. Listen, it's two things can be true at the same time. You can have frustration over an issue, but at the same time be enormously happy with everything Donald Trump has done, because everything he's done is what he said he was going to do. And there's no -- not a shred --
HUNT: Yeah, except releasing the Epstein files --
JENNINGS: There's not a shred of polling evidence.
HUNT: But he said he's going to release -- JENNINGS: He's at historic numbers among his own people. And there's a
narrative that -- this has been the fantasy of Democrats for six months. Oh, they're going to regret it. They're going to -- buyers' remorse.
It's not true. They love the president, and they love him even more today than they did a few weeks ago.
BEDINGFIELD: But it's also true that the unshakable, rock solid nature of his base has been the thing that has been the foundation of his political success through turbulent moments when people were saying, oh, this is the end of Donald Trump. It was the fact that his -- his base was absolutely unmoved by any argument against him.
And that's just not the case here. Youve got the -- you've got the tip of the spear on Twitter calling him out.
JENNINGS: Have you and I read the same polling?
BEDINGFIELD: Saying that he's not -- I agree with you that the polling -- I agree with you that the polling right now does not look like it's taking the hit.
[16:15:03]
I think this is a different moment for Trump, though, because you see leadership, vocal leadership in the MAGA movement, calling him out directly in a way that they never have the entire time he's been on the national stage. And I think that's different. That is different.
HUNT: It's -- it strikes me as different for all -- because you said, well, this has been their dream for the last six months. I mean, it's been Democrats dream for the last ten years that like, you know, oh, everyone's going to -- he's insulted John McCain. Right. That was back in 2015. Nothing happened.
Nothing has gotten to the base.
JENNINGS: Well, you just --
HUNT: Base of Trump.
JENNINGS: You just raised the key point. Democrats didn't care about this until five minutes ago. They did nothing. Biden did nothing. Nothing to do anything about this until they thought it could be used as a political weapon against Trump. There's no sincerity here.
BEDINGFIELD: But they also never --
(CROSSTALK)
JENNINGS: It's just politics.
BEDINGFIELD: That was appealing her case. Democrats were not campaigning on the idea that we were going to make these documents public. That was your guy. JENNINGS: But you are now.
BEDINGFIELD: But that was your guy. That was your guy.
HUNT: I mean, it seems very obvious, and I'm happy to say, like, yes, Democrats are clearly using that to their political advantage.
But to Kate's point, they didn't run on releasing the Epstein files either.
But, Elliot Williams, we got to go in a second. And I want to ask you briefly, Todd Blanche is going to meet with Ghislaine Maxwell or has asked to meet with Ghislaine Maxwell. What is up with that and why now?
WILLIAMS: If it were just the sentence before that in his tweet that says to -- for her to meet with prosecutors from the department, that would be great. That's fine. If she has evidence of crimes, prosecutors from the department should meet with her.
For the deputy attorney general, the person who's in effect, the chief operating officer for 115,000-person multinational entity to be meeting with this random lady in jail is not an effective use of his time or anyone else's, or the Justice Department's. It's odd. It's bizarre.
Now, again, if in fact, the one thing they're doing is seeking evidence of crimes, great. But everyone at this table knows this isn't about seeking evidence of crimes. It's about fueling Internet speculation. And that's what -- that's what this comes down to. So, it's a really odd thing for the deputy attorney general.
HUNT: All right. Well, I guess we'll see what comes out of it, won't we?
All right. Up next here, more on this story that just won't go away for the president. Republican Congressman Jason Smith joins us in THE ARENA as the House dodges a vote, at least for now, on releasing the Epstein files.
Plus, the gloves are off on "The Late Show" I can.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN COLBERT, HOST OF "THE LATE SHOW WITH STEPHEN COLBERT": I can finally speak unvarnished truth to power and say what I really think about Donald Trump starting right now. I don't care for him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:21:59]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: We all understand that the America first agenda and the American people are best served by putting an end to the Democrat sideshows, and that's what we're doing by not allowing the rules committee to continue with that nonsense this week.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: The House speaker, Mike Johnson, defending his decision to shut the house of representatives down early for its August recess summer break to avoid votes on the Jeffrey Epstein investigation, which has repeatedly paralyzed work in a key congressional panel that lets all the work go on, on the floor.
So, after tomorrow afternoon, the House won't be back until September, so they will be left with just days to tackle a critical deadline to fund the government.
Joining us now to discuss, Republican Congressman Jason Smith of Missouri. He is the chairman of the powerful House Ways and Means Tax Writing Committee.
Mr. Chairman, thanks very much for being here. I really appreciate it.
So, of course, you heard there, Speaker Johnson blaming Democrats. But frankly, a number of your fellow Republicans want to see more information about Jeffrey Epstein released.
Do you think the administration should release more information about Jeffrey Epstein?
REP. JASON SMITH (R-MO): You know, I support what President Trump has been calling for. He's called for additional documents to be unsealed from the grand jury. The more transparency that we can have, the better. Over the last four years, we haven't had any transparency in the Epstein files. That any step in the right direction would be helpful.
But let me tell you, I was home this past weekend. I had not one person when I was traveling my congressional district that talked to me about Epstein. What they talked to me about was the benefits from the One Big, Beautiful Bill in lower taxes, a higher child tax credit, no tax on tips. Not one person in my district asked me about that.
HUNT: So, if that's the case, sir, why do you think that so many supporters of the president's from his MAGA base in particular, are so focused on this?
SMITH: It sounds like Hakeem Jeffries is pretty focused on it as well, because House Democrats weren't focused on it during the Biden administration, but they clearly are now. So, it's surprising to me that this is getting so much oxygen because there's so many other issues that Americans really care about, like, like what? What I discovered when I was home this past weekend.
HUNT: Your colleagues, though, I mean, Thomas Massie is co-sponsoring a bill with Ro Khanna. That's what this whole, you know, tie up is about voting on this. There are enough members of your conference who say they care about it, that the speaker says, hey, we got to go home early.
Is there any world where you have the power of subpoena? When my colleague Jake Tapper talked to Julie Brown, she broke the Epstein story. She said, follow the money. Would you ever consider using subpoena power to learn more about Epstein's finances?
SMITH: So let me just say, in regards to ending early, we're ending one day early. We were scheduled to be out on Thursday. Instead, last votes on Wednesday. So it's 24 hours early that we're returning. And we were also here the week before Fourth of July and the week of Fourth of July, when we weren't normally scheduled.
We delivered more major wins in the first six months of this legislative session than what most congresses do in two years. So I'm pretty pleased with the results of what we passed, especially with the One Big, Beautiful Bill that I helped draft all the tax legislation. So I don't think we're ending that early.
HUNT: Fair enough. Just on the subpoena, would you ever use subpoena power to try to find out more information about Jeffrey Epstein?
SMITH: Well, you may use subpoena powers at any point. That is not a common thing that I have utilized within the ways and means committee. But if I felt like that it was a priority for Americans, then, of course. But like I said, this has not been something that's been a driving force. What people cared about is the cost to put food on their table, or the cost to put clothes on their backs. That's the focus they've had, or whether increased wages.
And that is what our focus has been on. The Ways and Means Committee. That's why we passed the One, Big Beautiful Bill, did no tax on tips, no tax on overtime tax relief for seniors and increased child tax credit. Increased standard deduction. We did all this for the American people because that's what we're hearing about.
HUN: But you did use subpoena power with Hunter Biden.
SMITH: Exactly. We have the authority to use it. But that is the only time that I have used it.
Like I said, our focus has been delivering relief for working families, small businesses and farmers. That should be the priority. Epstein is not the priority of everyday American who's working 9:00 to 5:00, just trying to put food on their table, clothes on their backs and gasoline in their cars. That is not their focus.
HUNT: All right, fair enough. And of course I do take your point. Massive piece of legislation, Donald Trump's agenda did get through your committee, through the House of Representatives, as I know, you spent many, many hours working on that. Congressman Jason Smith, the chairman of the Ways and Means Committee, thank you so much for coming on the show today, sir. I really appreciate it.
SMITH: Thank you. Good to be with you.
HUNT: All right. Coming up next, a look back at the life of British rock star Ozzy Osbourne. He died today at the age of 76.
Plus, Hunter Biden's choice words for the Democrats, who he says abandoned and undermined his father.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HUNTER BIDEN, SON OF FORMER PRESIDENT BIDEN: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) him, (EXPLETIVE DELETED) him and everybody around him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:32:12]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) him, (EXPLETIVE DELETED) him, (EXPLETIVE DELETED) him and everybody around him. I don't have to be (EXPLETIVE DELETED) nice.
Number one, I agree with Quentin Tarantino. (EXPLETIVE DELETED) George Clooney and James Carville, who hasn't run a race in 40 (EXPLETIVE DELETED) years.
And David Axelrod, who had one success in his political life, and that was Barack Obama. And that was because of Barack Obama, not because of (EXPLETIVE DELETED) David Axelrod and David Plouffe. And all of these guys in the "Pod Save America" guys who were junior (EXPLETIVE DELETED) speechwriters.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Well, that is the profanity laced interview that all of Washington is talking about.
Hunter Biden lashing out at those in the Democratic Party who he feels betrayed his father, the former President Joe Biden, by pushing him out of the 2024 presidential race one year ago. In that over three- hour long interview with YouTube personality Andrew Callahan, the younger Biden also offered this new explanation for the disastrous debate performance that ended his father's reelection campaign last summer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: I know exactly what happened in that debate. He flew around the world, basically, and the mileage that he could have flown around the world three times. He's 81 years old. He's tired as shit. They give him Ambien to be able to sleep. He gets up on the stage and he looks like he's a deer in the headlights.
(END VIDEO CLIP) HUNT: Looks like he's a deer in the headlights.
Alex Thompson, we're going to get to Kate in a second who's unfortunately going to be on the spot a little bit in this segment.
BEDINGFIELD: Let's do it.
WILLIAMS: The joy on Scott's face.
HUNT: I want -- oh, Alex was doing some of the best reporting on the Biden family through the Hunter Biden trial. And, of course, through us all, seeing the president fall apart on the debate stage.
This is not an insignificant revelation that the president was taking Ambien. I mean, that would have been a major headline and reported detail in the wake of that debate.
Did you know about that? What does it tell you that the that Hunter Biden was -- was willing to say this out loud?
THOMPSON: I did not know it. If it's true, it is telling that they didn't disclose it. But also using this Ambien, is perpetuating the fiction that it was just a bad debate, that it was just one bad night. If it was just a bad debate, if it was just a bad night, then he would have been able to recover. He would have been able to nail his George Stephanopoulos interview, his Lester Holt interview, and the Democratic Party would have rallied around him if he had been able to recover.
And this idea that he flew around the world. Yes, but that was about ten days before the debate. He also had an entire week off the week before the debate at Camp David.
And so, you know, this is part Hunter sees himself now as the family's guardian. He is now going to be the carrier of all the family's grievances. And despite all of the bromance, talk about Biden and Barack Obama, it is very clear that at least from the Biden side, that they do not feel that way. And they are finally being honest about these private grievances the family has held for a long time.
[16:35:02]
WILLIAMS: I'm curious what you think. How much do you think the Biden family blessed that appearance? Like, did they know he was going out there? Did they actually support it that he's now the person out there saying things that they -- certainly, the former president can't say? Certainly, the former first lady can't say it. I'd be curious.
THOMPSON: I mean, my former reporting and I'd be interested to hear what Kate has to say about this is that Hunter has always wanted to speak out, and it has been the staff that has restrained him because they think it would be bad politics. And also, the family has a very hard time telling Hunter Biden no to anything he wants to do.
So, whether or not they, they, they actually bless this, or at least they condoned it by just not saying anything. We don't know. HUNT: Kate?
BEDINGFIELD: Look, this is a very, very tight knit family. That's absolutely true. Alex is correct about that.
You have to remember that the Bidens have been through a tremendous amount personally. Hunter has been through a tremendous amount personally. The car wreck as a young, as a child, he has dealt with, he and his father have leaned on each other in a really personal and intense way. The entirety of Joe Biden's public life.
And so, when I saw this, that's what I saw. I saw Hunter Biden defending his father. I think the thing that, you know, Republicans have been so eager to suggest that this is somehow re-calibrated, the conversation in Washington. Okay, newsflash Republicans control all three branches of government.
This podcast interview with Hunter Biden is not setting the agenda. It is not distracting from the fact that Republicans have passed an incredibly unpopular bill that they don't want to talk about. The speaker of the House is sending the house out early because they're trying to run away from taking a vote on making the Jeffrey Epstein files public.
That's what people are talking about. I think, you know, was this great timing? No, I didn't love it. But you know what? He has a right to go out and defend his father, and that's what he was doing.
HUNT: Do you think that Hunter Biden always acts in the best interests of his father, or is he often acting in the best interest of Hunter Biden, sometimes at the expense of his father?
BEDINGFIELD: I think he loves his father to an almost unimaginable degree. I think I -- what I witnessed in the time that I worked for Joe Biden. He loves his father tremendously. I think he has struggled with a lot of demons that he has been very, very public about that have sometimes meant he's made really bad choices. I think he is not alone, as somebody who has made really bad choices at points in their life.
HUNT: Sure, yeah.
BEDINGFIELD: But the relationship that I saw between the two of them was one of intense love going both directions. Sometimes people make mistakes, but I think that he always wanted what was best for Joe Biden. And I think that he always -- he couldn't always do what was best for Joe Biden because he was struggling with his own demons. But I think he always wanted what was best for Joe Biden. No question in my mind.
HUNT: All right, Scott, your turn. Youve been waiting patiently.
JENNINGS: You know, you said he's not alone in making bad decisions. I agree, but he is almost singularly alone in being able to make a pantheon of bad decisions and then have his father completely wipe away any responsibility. You said, I think that the Biden family often has trouble telling Hunter, no, these are good parenting advice. Sometimes it's okay to tell your children no.
And what they did with Hunter Biden, apparently for his entire life, is never say no. And then in the final acts of a presidency, wipe away any responsibility for his personal bad decisions, for corruption, for whatever he has done over the last decade.
This political party has a 28 percent approval rating, and now you have this foul-mouthed person out trying to explain what happened with the last Democratic president. You call it bad timing and that nobody wants to talk about it.
To me, Alex's book and everything that's come out about how the Bidens operated as a family is the real constitutional crisis, and recalibrating this conversation? Absolutely. Because we can't just forget what was done.
BEDINGFIELD: But this was politically litigated in 2024. This is where this argument that you're making falls really flat to me. This was -- the country saw it. Joe Biden is not currently the president of the United States. He didn't even make it to the general election. Okay?
So, the country saw all of this and decided they didn't want him be president anymore.
JENNINGS: Okay.
BEDINGFIELD: This was litigated. So, the idea that there was some sort of conspiracy that this new Hunter Biden podcast shines light on, it doesn't hold water.
JENNINGS: There's no --
BEDINGFIELD: This all happened very, very publicly throughout the course of 2024.
JENNINGS: There's no conspiracy. And yes, it was politically litigated, but it was also politically litigated on numerous occasions with Donald Trump, including in 2024, including in 2016. And it never stopped Democrats from seeking what they said was a rescuing of democracy and accountability.
What accountability will there be for the Bidens, for the corruption? And that Hunter Biden was the spearhead of all of it? There won't be any legally for him because of the pardons, but there needs to be more political exploration.
HUNT: One, one --
BEDINGFIELD: Oversight Committee has been going after the Bidens for years, trying --
JENNINGS: And now they're all pleading the Fifth. Now, they're all pleading --
BEDINGFIELD: -- to dig up evidence, which Jim Comer was not able to do. JENNINGS: They're pleading the Fifth. How are we going to get answers
if we keep pleading the Fifth?
HUNT: Hold on for one second, because I do want to play one of the groups or individuals, in this case, a set of individuals called out by Hunter Biden were the now hosts of "Pod Save America", who he pointed out were junior speechwriters, relatively speaking, when Obama was president.
Those hosts reacted yesterday to the Hunter Biden interview. Let's listen to a little bit of that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOMMY VIETOR, HOST, POD SAVE AMERICA: You were on the board of Burisma because of who your dad is, and that is what people hate about Washington. And it was part of the problem.
JON LOVETT, HOST, POD SAVE AMERICA: He was part of a kind of like sleazy Washington that, as Tommy said, people hated. You were a liability. You should be ashamed of the ways in which you made your father's political life worse.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Alex Thompson?
THOMPSON: I mean, this has been -- again, it is finally like demolishing the fiction that these people, these two camps got along and they all played nice because they wanted to beat Donald Trump. But the feuding of sort of the Obama cool kids crowd and the Biden crowd has been long standing.
And it's mostly, I think, honestly been from the Biden side toward the Obama side. They resented the fact that Obama was more popular, was cool and everything else. And now we're finally -- just people are actually saying what they really believed.
JENNINGS: Well, you just brought up the key point. It can all be said now, because when Republicans were bringing up this Burisma business for years, it was called a conspiracy theory. This isn't real, a distraction, what have you. And now Democrats are admitting the corruption that was going on in the Biden family. Thats why -- that's why there has to be more accountability.
BEDINGFIELD: Republicans investigated it and did not find anything that they could use, and they tried. I mean, they spent the entirety of --
JENNINGS: Oh, we did use it. But who's ever going to be held accountable for it?
(CROSSTALK)
BEDINGFIELD: And they couldn't find anything. So you can -- you can make the rhetorical argument all you want. JENNINGS: Well, you can make excuses for it all you want.
BEDINGFIEDL: There was no "there" there.
HUNT: Well, and the point is, Joe Biden, not the president of the United States today.
All right. Coming up next here, Stephen Colbert kicking off a fiery farewell tour. What he said on his first night back on TV after he learned his show has been canceled.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLBERT: Over the weekend, it sunk in that they're killing off our show, but they made one mistake. They left me alive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:46:36]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLBERT: On Friday, Donald Trump posted, I absolutely love that Colbert got fired. His talent was even less than his ratings.
(BOOS)
COLBETRT: How dare you, sir? Would an untalented man be able to compose the following satirical witticism? Go (EXPLETIVE DELETED) yourself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Stephen Colbert, pulling no punches in his first monologue since CBS announced the end of the networks storied late show next May, a decision that shocked the entertainment world. Nearly a dozen celebrities, including a number of Colbert rivals, showing up in person to support Colbert. He, of course, took over from David Letterman back in 2015.
Some participated in a Coldplay skit that ended with this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Uh-oh, either they're having an affair or they're just very shy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: The show squarely blaming President Trump for this cancellation decision that CBS claims is financial.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) COLBERT: Somebody at CBS followed up their gracious press release with a gracious, anonymous leak, saying they pulled the plug on our show because of losses pegged between $40 million and $50 million a year. $40 million is a big number. I could see us losing $24 million, but where would Paramount have possibly spent the other $16 million? Oh yeah.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: So, of course, according to President Trump, CBS has just paid a $16 million settlement. And interestingly, the president also added, quote, we anticipate receiving $20 million more from the new owners in advertising PSAs or similar programming. This, of course, all about this merger.
Scott Jennings, this -- do you think that they're canceling the show because this is what President Trump wanted to let this merger go through?
JENNINGS: No. I mean, it's pretty -- look at the reporting on this on and off the record. Executives all over are saying we had to do it for financial reasons. This is a massive show with a massive staff. It's losing a massive amount of money.
This is the nature of the TV business right now. You just are not economically viable. If you're supposed to be doing a comedy show, that's not funny, that's losing $50 million a year.
I mean, only, only liberals, extreme liberals would think that we have to keep subsidizing partisan rants every night that are economically not viable just because. Why? It makes absolutely no financial sense. He works for a for-profit company. Don't you have to turn a profit at some juncture? And he's not doing it.
And you know, there's a lot of people in this general business right now who think that I exist to go after Donald Trump at all costs. But no one stops to think, do I exist to make money or not? Maybe these things aren't compatible. When you cut out half the country from your possible audience.
HUNT: Kate Bedingfield, what do you think?
BEDINGFIELD: I think there's probably -- I think the truth is probably somewhere a little bit in the middle. I think there I think there's probably an economic component to this. And I think across the board, we're seeing that legacy television is struggling to make ends meet in the way that they used to. And I think there probably was a financial piece here.
But I think the optics of this, doing it in this way, in this moment, right after this joke was made, they also had to know that this was how it was going to be received.
[16:50:07]
And so, I'm not quite -- I'm not quite on the side of this is -- this was solely a decision to go after him because he was going after Trump. I think there probably was a little bit of economic impact here, but I think actually, more than anything, this is another ringing bell, another death knell in the slow decline of legacy media. I think that's what we're seeing.
WILLIAMS: Without question, I actually think it's not the last late night television show to go setting aside all the political questions, number one, as you know, Scott's point, it is grossly expensive to put on big, expensive late-night television. And number two, audiences are just more diffuse now. It's not like it used to be in the days of Johnny Carson, where everybody turned their television on and watched one thing at night. Now, folks are getting those same kind of laughs from TikTok --
HUNT: From phones.
WILLIAMS: -- and from Instagram.
HUNT: You don't say it.
BEDINGFIELD: Well, there will probably be --
WILLIAMS: But that's -- I mean, this is a bigger cultural question. Even if you we don't even need to talk politics on here only because this is about how media are consumed, not necessarily about are liberals being targeted on media or whatever.
(CROSSTALK)
THOMPSON: These suspicions are not -- political influence. They're not coming out of nowhere. Donald Trump has made it very clear that he wants to try to intimidate any sort of media organization that is opposed to him, that reports on critical information.
He just literally sued "The Wall Street Journal" just a few days ago. He's tried to settle with every single media company and intimidate them. He's also tried to intimidate every single social media company in the country.
So, the fact that there are questions being asked, if there was political influence, I don't think is ridiculous.
JENNINGS: Well, how can it cost so much money to put on a television show where a guy at a desk basically tells the same hackneyed joke every night?
(CROSSTALK)
THOMPSON: Clearly, you're not a fan?
JENNINGS: Also, it's literally a guy at a desk and occasionally dancing vaccine needles. It's how can it possibly be this expensive to be this not great, I don't understand.
WILLIAMS: You had me until that last clause where you got into the content of the program. Thats irrelevant largely to the conversation we're having here, which is that --
JENNINGS: Is it?
WILLIAMS: Yes, it is.
JENNINGS: Because enough people aren't watching it so it can be profitable. I think it's very relevant.
WILLIAMS: Scott, it doesn't matter how many people are watching it at a certain point, because the nature of the industry has changed dramatically in your life and in mine. And I think even -- even before you get to the question of do you like Stephen Colbert or not, you have to acknowledge that the presence of like, Kasie held up her phone, TikTok, Instagram, wherever else people get their -- YouTube and the young kids stuff that all the all the things --
THOMPSON: The young kids stuff.
(LAUGHTER)
WILLIAMS: All the picturey things --
(CROSSTALK)
HUNT: The legacy. Yes, exactly.
Okay. But I mean, look, this is we may be talking about legacy media. I do want to play briefly one thing that Jon Stewart, who, of course, left legacy media, went to new media, then came back to do "The Daily Show". This was his response on his show last night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JON STEWART, TV HOST: But if you're afraid and you protect your bottom line, I got one thing to say. Just one little phrase. You tell them, go (EXPLETIVE DELETED) yourself. Go(EXPLETIVE DELETED) yourself. Go (EXPLETIVE DELETED) yourself. Go (EXPLETIVE DELETED) yourself!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: A very quick last word here, Scott.
JENNINGS: Yeah, clearly this is not a person who wants someone like me to watch his show. Why is every Democrat using the F word every other word right now.
BEDINGFIELD: He's responding to Trump. He was responding to Trump.
JENNINGS: No, no, what he's --
BEDINGFIELD: I got you canceled.
JENNINGS: What --
BEDINGFIELD: Scott, he doesn't have the right to respond?
JENNINGS: Okay, well, that's the message --
HUNT: All right. Well, that's I think that's the last F-bomb we have on our show today.
(LAUGHTER)
HUNT: Definitely a record number. All right.
JENNINGS: Brought to you by the Democrats.
HUNT: We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:58:29]
HUNT: We do have some breaking news this afternoon. The heavy metal singer, frontman of Black Sabbath, Ozzy Osbourne, has died at the age of 76.
CNN entertainment reporter Lisa France joins us now.
Lisa, tell us about this.
LISA RESPERS FRANCE, CNN ENTERTAINMENT REPORTER: Yeah, the architect of heavy metal unfortunately lost his battle with Parkinson's disease. He had a lot of health issues over the years. Everything from a tragic fall to a really bad infection, which he said was complicated by his years of substance abuse. And -- but we know that he left this world based on the statement from his family, surrounded by them and love.
And that's bringing comfort to his fans today. Just a tragic, tragic loss because Ozzy Osbourne was so beloved, not just in music industry, but also when it came to reality TV. He really -- he and his family changed reality television for a lot of people.
So, people are mourning him. Everyone from Paul Stanley of KISS to Flava Flav. So, who else could pull that type of admiration?
HUNT: Yeah, Lisa, I mean, I have to say, I mean, for someone my age, I'm an older millennial. I mean, I -- I got to know Ozzy Osbourne through reality TV, and I came to his music later. I mean, what do you think his legacy is going to be, especially for rock and roll?
FRANCE: I think a man who did it and did it well, he was true to himself. He was very open about his substance abuse. He was once asked by Larry King, I believe, about being a, you know, an addict. And he said, you don't stop being an addict just because you stopped using drugs.
So I think his legacy is going to be that he embraced rock and roll to the fullest. And he also embraced his family. So not just a wonderful musician, but also a beloved family man. I think that's going to be his legacy.
HUNT: A family man, indeed. And we got a chance to see that. Lisa France, thanks very much. Really appreciate it.
All right. Jake Tapper is standing by for "THE LEAD".
Hi, Jake. Sorry. All right. I appreciate the tip. Have a great show.
