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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt
Now: Deputy AG Todd Blanche Meeting With Ghislaine Maxwell; Now: Trump Tours Fed HQ With Chair Jerome Powell; Trump Pays Tribute To "Great Friend" Hulk Hogan. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired July 24, 2025 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JESSICA DEAN, CNN HOST: -- Washington, D.C. makes it the worst city in the U.S. for traffic.
[16:00:01]
I kind of agree with this. The average commute time is longer than 33 minutes. And get this, during the week, traffic congestion usually lasts about 6-1/2 hours.
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Oh my God. So, L.A. took the top spot last year. It's now number two in consumer affairs, says the return to work orders after the pandemic is telling me what I already know, people, because I can tell you this is the truth. It is tough out there. You hang in there, people. We will, too.
"THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT" starts right now.
KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Hi, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. Welcome to THE ARENA. It's wonderful to have you with us on this Thursday.
Right now, we are following a critical meeting happening in Florida. The deputy attorney general, Todd Blanche, is meeting with Ghislaine Maxwell at the U.S. attorney's office in Tallahassee. This has been ongoing for at least a few hours, and it comes in the middle of a dizzying 24 hours surrounding the controversy over the Jeffrey Epstein files.
Today, this meeting, also today, the Republican chair of the House Oversight Committee says he's going to push forward toward a subpoena for the Justice Department to try and force the release of the Epstein files as the bipartisan call for answers in the House and in the Senate continues to get louder.
Our panel is here, as always, but we're going to start with CNN chief legal affairs correspondent Paula Reid.
Paula, this has been going on for quite some time. What are we learning about what's happening behind those doors?
PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: It is. It has been going on for a while and literally texting sources right now to try to get an update on what exactly transpired during this meeting, because right now we have more questions than we do answers about what exactly is transpiring here.
First of all, biggest question is, what is the administration prepared to offer Maxwell in exchange for any information she may have? President Trump has pardon power, commutation power, but the question there is, why would. Maxwell share something now? She's already been convicted, serving a 20-year sentence. She had every incentive to provide any information of value to the government well before today.
Even if she does come up with something in this meeting today, how and why is she to be believed? This is a convicted sex trafficker who has in the past had questions and charges related to her credibility. Also, any attempt to cut a deal with her is going to result in blowback from victims of Maxwell and Epstein.
So, a lot of questions right now. We know that the number two deputy attorney general did go down for the purpose of trying to find out anything additional in this investigation as part of a larger effort to appease the outcry they are facing even from the president's own supporters about their handling of this investigation.
So we continue to press our sources and figure out what exactly happened here, because the biggest question is, is there anything of substance happening here, or is this all theater?
HUNT: And, Paula, can we just take a step back here for a second and underscore for everybody how unusual this is or isn't that the deputy attorney general of the United States is meeting with someone who is convicted of something like this in person?
REID: Yeah. This is highly unusual. Todd Blanche runs the Justice Department. He oversees the day-to-day operations. It's one of the biggest jobs in Washington.
This is not who you would normally send to a U.S. attorney's office in Florida. To have this kind of meeting. But the reason he is the man for this job is because this is someone President Trump has trusted, probably more than any other lawyer in recent memory, to help navigate tricky legal issues.
And there are some real landmines here, of course, for the president, because Maxwell may know some things that aren't terribly favorable to the president. He's trying to sort of work his way out of a crisis.
And what we've seen about Todd Blanche is he more so than any other Trump attorney, he has outlasted Trump's legal problems. He has successfully represented him in multiple criminal cases. Yes, he was convicted in New York, but he never spent a day in jail.
So, Todd Blanche, while a lot of people are saying this is unprecedented, that is absolutely true. But if you understand the dynamics inside the Justice Department, the intense distrust that this White House and this administration has of most people outside their inner circle, it makes sense why they sent him down there, doesn't mean it's appropriate. Doesn't mean it's the best use of resources. But you understand how this happens.
HUNT: Indeed. All right. Paula Reid, starting us off. Paula, thank you very much for that.
All right. Our panel is here in THE ARENA. CNN legal analyst Elliot Williams; national political reporter for "The Washington Post", Sabrina Rodriguez; Democratic congressman of Ohio, Greg Landsman; CNN political commentator, Republican strategist Brad Todd.
And we're also joined by one of President Trump's former attorneys, Bill Brennan, is here on our panel as well.
And, Bill, I actually do want to start with you and pick up on that point that Paula was just making, and that is one about trust. Can you explain to us what trust means to Donald Trump in this context, and why it might be that it is Todd Blanche who is doing this right now?
WILLIAM J. BRENNAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I can, and thanks for having me, Kasie. But I'd like to say one thing first. I agree with Paula on that point. I disagree that this is an unusual meeting. If we take the name Ghislaine Maxwell and make it Ghislaine Doe, it's likely that it would be a lower level DOJ official meeting with the defendant.
But at this point, she does have something to offer. Most federal cases, if you look at a pie chart, result in pleas and the subset of those result in pleas with cooperation. And there are two vehicles in the rules that deal with that pre-conviction or pretrial. It's called a 5K 1.1. But there is another avenue called a Rule 35B motion that can be used by the government. And it is not uncommon for somebody who has been convicted to maybe say, you know, I'm looking at 20 years here, I want to come in and I want to -- I want to make my situation better.
So that part, I think is not that uncommon. It is somewhat uncommon for a top level individual like Todd Blanche to go down, but that goes back to Paula's point. I've dealt with the president a lot, and I know that he values trust. If I was in his position, I'd want somebody I could trust. And I think it's a smart move.
HUNT: Elliot Williams, let me get -- get you to weigh in on this as well as a former prosecutor, what say you?
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yeah. And I respect Bill deeply as a lawyer, but I take a slightly different view on some of this. Number one, let's step back and realize what's going on here.
The Justice Department, the very Justice Department that prosecuted Ghislaine Maxwell, is opposing her appeal of her conviction right now. They want her in prison, number one.
Number two, to quote another very important federal law, federal Rule of Evidence 609, you can look it up, says that someone's prior convictions can be used to undermine any testimony they give.
Our laws basically say that we don't trust or should not trust the words that come out of people that have been convicted of serious federal offenses, right? So, what we have here is someone who is number one, the chief operating officer of a $40 billion entity with 100,000 employees having a jailhouse meeting with someone whose testimony, whose conviction he wants to affirm, and whose testimony we shouldn't trust. It's bizarre use of his time. I get Paula's point. And, of course, you know, the president trusts him and so on.
But it's a bizarre use of his time. No deputy attorney general would ever take a meeting like this. You'd have a kid who's five years out of law school do it.
This isn't about uncovering evidence that could have been uncovered years ago. A decade ago, when she first, you know, was having conversations with the Justice Department. This is about quelling chatter on the internet and nothing more.
So, we got to get out of this notion that we think that Ghislaine Maxwell is going to come forward with some smoking gun of a crime, and new defendants that probably the government knew about for years.
(CROSSTALK)
HUNT: So, Bill -- Bill Brennan, actually hold on. Donald Trump is speaking at the Fed with Jerome Powell. Let's listen in for just a second to see what's being said here.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Or expanding and a lot of very expensive work. There's no question about it. And Tim has been with me for a long time, and you're in charge of the committee.
SEN. TIM SCOTT (R-SC): Indeed. One of the reasons why I wanted to see it was the overruns of the expenses, wanted to figure out why.
TRUMP: Yeah.
So, we're taking a look, and it looks like it's about $3.1 billion, it went up a little. Bit or a lot. So, the 2.7 is now 3.1.
JEROME POWELL, FEDERAL RESERVE CHAIRMAN: And I'm not aware of that.
TRUMP: Yeah. It just came out.
POWELL: Yeah, I haven't heard that from anybody at the Fed.
TRUMP: It just came out.
(INAUDIBLE)
POWELL: This came from us.
TRUMP: Yes. I don't know who does that.
POWELL: You're including the Martin renovation. You just added. You just said you just added in a third building is what that is. That's a third building.
TRUMP: But it's a building that's being built.
POWELL: No, it's been -- it was built five years ago. We finished Martin five years ago.
TRUMP: It's part of the overall work.
POWELL: But it's not new.
TRUMP: So, we're going to take a look. We're going to see what's happening. And it's got a long way.
Do you expect any more additional cost overruns?
POWELL: Don't expect them. We're ready for 'em. But we -- we have a little bit of a reserve that we may use. But no, we don't expect to be finished in 2027. We're well along, as you can see.
TRUMP: Nice to take these off every once in a while. When we're not under too much danger.
So, any questions?
REPORTER: Mr. President, does he give you any --
REPORTER: As a real estate developer, what would you do with a project manager who would be overbudget?
TRUMP: Generally speaking, what would I do?
[16:10:01]
I'd fire them.
REPORTER: Do you think this issue, Mr. President, give you cause to do that?
TRUMP: Well, I'm here just really with the chairman. He's showing us around, showing us the work.
And so, I don't want to get that. I don't want to be personal. I just would like to see it get finished. And in many ways, it's too bad it started, but it did start. And it's been under construction for a long time. It'll be -- it's going to be a real long time, because it looks like it's got a long way to go.
POWELL: Yes, sir. So --
REPORTER: Mr. President, are there things -- are there things the chairman can say to you today that would make you back off some of the earlier criticism?
TRUMP: Well, I'd love him to lower interest rates.
(LAUGHTER)
TRUMP: But other than that, what can I tell you? The country is doing really well. I just briefed the chairman on the deal we made with Japan. Japan is putting up $550 billion in order to lower their tariffs a little bit. That way they have a little bit lower tariff.
And they also opened their country to free trade, which nobody thought was even a possibility. And we get a zero tariff in the free trade. We don't pay tariffs and they're going to pay 15 percent on everything they send into our country.
So, it's great. But they put up, as you could call it, seed money. Let's call it seed money. You could call it anything you want. But it's five -- it's a total of $550 billion. So, nobody thought any of that was possible. And it's wonderful.
And we're doing pretty well with the European Union, likewise. And we have some others. They're all really big, and our country is going to make a lot of money. We would be helped if interest rates would come down, but we're going to see how the board rules on that soon.
I'd love to see them come down a lot, but we have a country that's thriving. We had a dead country one year ago. Today, we have the hottest country anywhere in the world, and we'll get this one finished.
REPORTER: Mr. President --
TRUMP: Thank you.
HUNT: Okay, we have been watching what can only be described as a bizarre photo opportunity with the president of the United States and the chairman of the Federal Reserve, Jerome Powell.
Our team is going to work on giving us a little bit more of this video of the two of them standing next to each other in hard hats, there we go, where the president is talking about. And you can see on your screen the renovation of the Federal Reserve. Now, this has become something that Trump administration officials, notably Russ Vought over at the Office of Management and Budget, who has essentially said that this renovation, the cost of it is inappropriate.
Now, this all comes in the context of the president continually describing his displeasure with the Federal Reserve chairman, Jerome Powell, for not pressuring the board of governors to cut interest rates.
Now, the president has said that he has no intention of firing Jerome Powell. But under the law, the only real way you can fire a chairman of the Federal Reserve is if you do it for cause. And this is, in theory, a potential cause for that. And what you saw between the president and the Federal Reserve chairman just there was the president trying to say that the cost of this renovation has been even higher than Russ Vought had initially said, a cost of $3.2 billion.
Now, we saw Jerome Powell, the chair, take this piece of paper from the president and disagree with him in public and say, well, actually, that represents the cost of an entire third building. Those were Jerome Powell's words there. You can see Powell takes out his glasses to read it. They're both wearing these hard hats, just really a remarkable moment to watch play out in public.
Now, I think it's also worth noting, of course, this all comes as and we were interrupted here on this set. A conversation we were having about Jeffrey Epstein and the files that now the Trump administration doesn't want to release. You may remember that yesterday we were covering Tulsi Gabbard, the DNI at the podium at the White House, talking about President Obama and Russiagate. Again, trying to talk about something other than the Jeffrey Epstein files.
So let's go to Alayna Treene, who's at the white house and has been covering this for us because, Alayna, it does seem as though this is two days distraction, because of course, the markets and I think it's worth noting, by the way, that the markets are closed because they do not really like it when Donald Trump suggests that perhaps he's going to throw Jerome Powell out of a job, but there you have it.
What do you make of what we just saw and what has your reporting been?
ALAYNA TREENE, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: I mean, it was an incredibly awkward scene, Kasie, to say the least. I mean, look, it's -- you have the president there. I thought it was notable when he said, come over here. Come on over, Chairman, to Fed chair Jerome Powell. I mean, someone he has been openly warring with, openly attacking for months now, even before he actually came into office.
[16:15:00]
This has been going on, of course, needling him over this idea of wanting the Fed to lower rates. But to get back to this investigation and why he's touring this. I mean, we just learned right before he showed up that Jerome Powell was going to be joining him. We saw a number of senators, Senators Tim Scott, Thom Tillis. We know the OMB, the White House budget chief, Russ Vought, is also there, among others, to tour these different renovations. And this all stemmed from an investigation. We know that vote had opened. Looking into the cost of this.
And you're totally right, Kasie. I mean, a big question. When they had launched this investigation was, is this supposed to be potentially laying the groundwork to question the legal basis or really set the legal basis to potentially finding a way to push Powell out?
And I think it's really important to give you the context here. The president has said privately and has talked about this with his advisers, this idea of wanting to fire Powell, his term is not up. I should note, until May of next year. But that is something that his top officials, his top aides around him have urged him not to do.
And to your point, it's because they know that this would create a massive mess in the markets. You know, with the economy to have an independent chair. The Fed operates independently of the executive branch, to have the president meddling in that.
And so, what I talked to my sources here at the White House, they've told me a lot of this, of course, is the president wanting to further, you know, criticize Powell. This entire investigation is in part about kind of embarrassing him. But they also want to get to the bottom of this budget.
I should note, you know, Russ Vought, OMB, has said that it was going to be $2 billion. Thats far beyond the $700 million that they had initially slated for these renovations. We have heard Powell and others from the Fed say that it's because this has taken more time than they anticipated. The materials are more expensive, giving out a lot of different reasons.
But that's what a lot of this is really about today. But more than that, I mean, the tour itself is kind of a skeptical and really drawing this more into the media's attention, more into the public eye. And the fact that you have Powell standing there, the imagery of that is pretty remarkable. And I can't share enough how rare this is.
And to your point as well, just about this all coming in the midst of this, Epstein, you know, firestorm, we saw that yesterday a bit when we saw Tulsi Gabbard, the director of national intelligence, come out and address the briefing, the White House briefing yesterday, talking about, you know, the allegations against the Obama administration with the so-called Russia gate, as the White House is continuing to refer to it. Of course, the investigation into whether or not Russia meddled in the 2016 election.
All to say, we are seeing a lot of these different type of events now popping up in the midst of all of this, but this one is pretty remarkable.
And I also should note, the last president who actually went and visited the Fed was George W. Bush many years ago, when he was there for the swearing in of then Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke.
So very rare to have a president even be there, let alone touring something like this -- Kasie.
HUNT: Indeed.
All right. Alayna, stand by for us. Thanks very much for that reporting. We're going to talk about this and much more with our panel after we take a quick break. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:22:33]
HUNT: All right. Welcome back to THE ARENA.
We are continuing to follow -- digest this moment that just unfolded between the president of the United States, the chairman of the Federal Reserve, Jerome Powell, where the president, as he is facing down the reporting that his name, he was told his name is one of many in the Epstein files that was first reported yesterday by the wall street journal, has since been reported here by CNN and by other outlets has decided he wants to spend the afternoon drawing attention to the renovation of their Federal Reserve, which his administration has used to target the federal reserve chairman, Jerome Powell, who the president has been vocal about essentially wanting to fire in his -- the face of his failure to cut interest rates the way the president wants to.
Our panel is here to weigh in now.
Brad Todd, I don't -- I don't think I've ever seen anything like this between the chairman of the Federal Reserve, which is, of course, you know, the monetary system upon which the global financial system rests. And the president of the United States, what did we just see?
BRAD TODD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think the president has actually tried to save us all from bad judgment about what we're talking about. The fact that the federal reserve needs to cut rates is a matter of importance to every American. We have a housing supply crisis right now. The best thing we can do to stimulate that is to cut rates.
We have cut rates one time since COVID. Europe has cut them seven times. Australia, Europe, both have interest rates under four, ours is over five.
Donald Trump is putting the spotlight where it belongs, which is on the economy and the need to cut rates.
HUNT: And do you think it's appropriate for him to pressure a Federal Reserve --
TODD: A hundred percent.
HUNT: -- in this way?
TODD: Work the ref. Joe Biden worked the ref. In March, he came out and criticized Jerome Powell for not cutting rates in his last year in office. Absolutely.
Powell is way out of line with the market -- the economy is hitting its benchmarks. He's just trying to punish Donald Trump over tariffs is right. Donald Trump ought to go to the Fed every day.
HUNT: Congressman, what say you?
REP. GREG LANDSMAN (D-OH): I mean, I think the exchange was bizarre. And it did not help us in terms of improving the economy or getting the Federal Reserve to lower interest rates. The Federal Reserve is holding back on interest rates because inflation is going up because of the tariffs. So, Trump has a better luck, you know, with his own policy than, you know, hassling Jerome Powell.
But I think Jerome Powell sitting there shaking his head in bewilderment with Trump right there will become an internet meme. And I think that's how most Americans are feeling right now.
Eighty percent of Americans are tuned in to this Epstein thing, which is an insane number. And 90 percent of them want all of the files released. And he is covering it up in a way that I think the vast majority of people don't like. That's how -- they're feeling like Jerome Powell was feeling in that moment. HUNT: So, hold on one second, Brad. I just the moment that the
congressman is playing, just in case you missed it, let's play it one more time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We're taking a look and it looks like it's about $3.1 billion. It went up a little bit or a lot. So, the 2.7 is now 3.1.
POWELL: And I'm not aware of that.
TRUMP: Yeah it just came out.
POWELL: Yeah, I haven't heard that from anybody, the Fed.
TRUMP: It just came out.
SCOTT: I noticed that at about 3.1 as well.
TRUMP: Three-point-one.
SCOTT: Three-point-two.
POWELL: This came from us.
TRUMP: Yes. I don't know who does that.
POWELL: You're including the Martin renovation. You just added -- you just added -- you just added in a third building.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: He said you just added in a third billion -- third building. Worth noting the original accusations from Russ Vought towards Jerome Powell is that the renovations cost up to $2.5 billion. Cost overruns of $700 million. There were some things, such as asbestos in there, Alayna Treene ran us down on that.
Now, Brad, you were going to jump in.
TODD: It's not going to shock Americans that the federal government can't build a building without cost going up. So that's going to be no surprise.
I want to go back to one thing the congressman said, though. Inflation is at 2.7 percent, the Fed's target is just in the twos. Somewhere around two. It's holding steady. Unemployment's at 4.1 percent. It's in great shape.
Back in the spring, Jerome Powell said that if tariffs didn't drive up inflation too much and employment stayed where it needed to be, he'd cut rates. He's now got other Fed governors like Chris Waller calling on him to cut rates.
But he's just too stubborn. And it's all politics. He wants to punish Donald Trump. WILLIAMS: Can I answer your question?
HUNT: Okay. Go ahead.
WILLIAMS: Okay. Set aside the policy of whether it is right to raise or lower rates right now, is it or is it not true that the stability of global markets depends on the idea that the Fed is separate from American politics?
TODD: Yes, for sure.
WILLIAMS: Okay.
TODD: Presidents all work the ref though. They all work the Fed.
WILLIAMS: Brad, there's a reason why not just George W. Bush, but prior to that, FDR and Gerald Ford were the last presidents to even step foot in the Fed because of the risk that markets are going to react to the idea that the president is thumbing the scale, even if you're right about where --
TODD: It's not news that he wants a cut.
HUNT: No, no. It's good. So, we have -- we have two minutes left in this segment. And the point that I would like to make here is that we are now talking -- you two, right, are talking about the politicization of the Federal Reserve. Should we cut rates?
The economy, when really what the president doesn't want to be talking about, Sabrina, is Jeffrey Epstein, which to the congressman's point, only 19 percent of Americans say in the most recent fox news poll, only 19 percent, 1 in 5 say they have not been following.
So, like 80 percent of the country is following Jeffrey Epstein. And then this is what the president wants to talk about instead.
SABRINA RODRIGUEZ, NATIONAL POLITICS REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST: I mean, look, my 95-year-old abuela in Hialeah, Florida, asked me about the Epstein files. So, it is hitting the larger public. That is the reality here.
You know, people are not following the inflation rate or not following, you know, what's happening at the fed. Don't really know who Jerome Powell is. Like, yes, for us, we're here talking about this theme.
HUNT: Probably feeling inflation.
RODRIGUEZ: And are feeling it.
But just in terms of like understanding the politics of all of this is not necessarily something that people are tuned in for. But the Epstein files is something that we see people at home who are not tuned in on politics, really locked in.
Just before coming on here, I was like scrolling through TikTok, like I looked up just Epstein files. And of course, I mean, its video after video after video. This is not something that's going away. We were talking about it on a panel two weeks ago.
Here we are still with how quickly news cycles move under President Trump that we are still talking about the Epstein files two weeks later says a lot about this moment.
HUNT: Well, and I also would like to be clear here, we're not talking about this because we want to talk about it. We're talking about this because, I mean, it is the Trump administration that has decided that today, Todd Blanche should go to Florida and meet with Ghislaine Maxwell, who was Jeffrey Epstein's accomplice, among other things.
Congressman?
LANDSMAN: Also, I was supposed to be voting today. As a member of Congress, I was supposed to be working today, and they shut down the United States House of Representatives to avoid a vote on releasing the Epstein files. It was a bipartisan move to get these files out there. So presumably we can all move on.
But they are protecting this administration and potentially other people that are named in the files. And they shut congress down.
So, I didn't get to vote today and do my job.
[16:30:00]
And that's why we're talking about it, is that they are -- they are part -- they are in the midst of a massive cover up, and they don't know what to do.
TODD: Why didn't Democrats agitate to release these files when Joe Biden was president? You were in Congress.
LANDSMAN: It's just not working. That line of argument.
(CROSSTALK)
LANDSMAN: I don't know, it's like -- you just got arrested. You just got arrested. We -- look, release it. I remember saying all the time, release it.
TODD: Did you file any amendments? Did you go to committee like you did, in the other day? Did you? Are you were you signed on to move?
LANDSMAN: No. Because honestly, in part because like Trump had it, Trump was like, no. Look --
TODD: When Joe Biden and Merrick Garland, why did you not --
(CROSSTALK)
LANDSMAN: No one believes that this line of argument is going to work? I just --
TODD: Don't critique the argument. Answer the question.
LANDSMAN: I know, but -- I don't --
TODD: Answer the question, why didn't you do it?
LANDSMAN: I did, I said, release the files. And I thought --
TODD: Why don't you go to the rules committee?
LANDSMAN: One of the things that Trump said that I thought was like, yeah, release the files. And he was going to fix it. Why would Joe Biden sit on files that implicated Donald Trump? I don't like -- I think they were, you know, finishing the investigation. But no matter what, it was Trump who said these files and the client list, the client list matter so much, I don't even think so.
TODD: So you weren't interested until Donald Trump was president and you thought it would hurt him?
LANDSMAN: No, I wasn't, by the way, I have been very much interested in this for a long time because I have a 15 year old daughter. And so, like, I have a politics.
Politics aside, like it was --
TODD: What you did --
(CROSSTALK)
LANDSMAN: What they did, what these people did -- I called for it all the time. Like --
TODD: Where was your amendment? Why did you gum up the committee then?
LANDSMAN: But you really -- so let me ask you this. My amendment to gum up the committee like I -- we wouldn't have had Republican support. Now we have Republican support, which is great.
TODD: You didn't do it because it --
LANDSMAN: There are some --
TODD: -- would have hurt -- you didn't think it would hurt. You don't want to hurt Joe Biden.
(CROSSTALK)
LANDSMAN: I have no problems standing up to Joe Biden. I was one of the people who called Joe Biden to step aside, unlike most Republicans right now, who can't stand up to this man, what Jerome Powell did in this moment is what you're seeing more and more Republicans, especially on the far right doing, which is I'm distancing myself from this man who's clearly in the files of the most notorious pedophile in American history.
HUNT: All right. We clearly have touched a nerve here.
We're going to take a step back briefly, because we do have a little bit of breaking news about that meeting between the Deputy AG Todd Blanche and Ghislaine Maxwell.
Our chief legal affairs correspondent, Paula Reid, is back with us. Paula, I just want to alert you and our audience. We did get a two- minute warning to the president, who's going to continue to speak at the Federal Reserve. So I have to jump in and cut you off. I apologize, but what have you learned?
REID: We've learned that this meeting between the deputy attorney general, Ghislaine Maxwell, and her lawyer has wrapped. Her lawyer says that it lasted all day. She answered lots of questions, didn't invoke any privilege, and that she answered truthfully, though he would not get into the substance of exactly what was discussed. So, we still have a lot of questions, Kasie, about what, if anything, the government is offering her. What, if anything, she provided, and also why she should be believed.
This is someone who has been charged in the past related to her truthfulness, and she is, of course, a convicted sex trafficker. So, we have some details out of this, but still looking to see if this moves the needle on this larger controversy the administration is facing.
HUNT: All right, Paula, thanks very much for that update.
And of course, stand by for us if you get more breaking news, ping us. We'll come back to you.
Elliot Williams, you reacted to when she said that she didn't plead the Fifth?
WILLIAMS: Well, because she could potentially face more criminal exposure based on things she said. So I'm surprised she didn't take the fifth.
To Paula's point, this question about what kind of deal she might have gotten if she is going to provide useful information to the government -- of course, she should push for a deal to either get out of prison or get her sentence lowered. This is what Bill Brennan was talking about. That was sort of disagreeing with him about. But --
HUNT: Hold on, one second. We're hearing from the president. He's speaking right now. Let's listen in.
TRUMP: Saying what a great move that was. We have hundreds of billions of dollars coming in Japan. Just on one deal is paying us $550 billion.
And they opened up their economy. It's incredible. The deal.
And they're happy. We're happy. Everybody's happy. But we should have the lowest interest rate of any country. And we don't. And we should have. Every point is worth $365 billion. So, we want to get the rates down,
but we also want to get the Fed building finished.
So, I met with the contractors. We toured it with the chairman, and we had a very good tour. And we'll talk to you about it sometime. But Tim and I, we sort of understand what happened.
SCOTT: Yeah, it's too expensive. Bottom line is this that Americans deserve to become first time homebuyers. President Trump has created the best economy in the world. The one thing that would make it better is lower interest rates. Full employment --
HUNT: Continuing to monitor the president at the Federal Reserve again at this construction site. He's there with Senator Tim Scott. If he says anything else, we will bring it back to you.
But, Elliot, you were talking about what it might mean -- the fact that Ghislaine Maxwell didn't plea.
WILLIAMS: Right, because of the fact that she could potentially face more charges based on things that come out of her mouth when she's interviewed by law enforcement.
[16:35:00]
But back to this question of a deal, anytime someone provides information to the government, it's a conversation and negotiation. And what incentive does she have to just sing like a bird unless she's getting some benefit from it, either in the form of a pardon or in the form of some lowering of her sentence to get her out a little bit earlier.
I would think her attorneys are asking for that now. Maybe she's not providing any useful information, I don't know, but that will be the thing to keep an eye out for in the coming days.
TODD: It's got to be a no deal. She can't get any leniency.
WILLIAMS: Oh, I know, sorry?
TODD: She can't get any. I mean, the one thing Democrats and Republicans agree on is everybody who's guilty in this has to face the punishment and have been spared nothing.
WILLIAMS: Oh, man. I'm just --
HUNT: This so much more cheerful.
(LAUGHTER)
WILLIAMS: I know. No. Hey, man. Hey, man. I'm just telling you what the law is. I don't think she should get one.
LANDSMAN: But this is why -- but this is why I don't think it was a smart move to take this meeting, because it does give the impression that they're going to try to work her up. Having done these horrible, horrible things and get something out of it that would help him. I don't -- I don't understand why they would do that.
WILLIAMS: And moreover, anything she says, the likelihood that it becomes public is incredibly low or should become public is incredibly low. If she's talking about people who might be charged with crimes or information on people who won't be charged with crimes, that's private information that the Justice Department will sit on. It's not some list that's going to come out tomorrow.
HUNT: All right. So, joining us now to join our conversation, he's been standing by patiently. Republican Congressman Tim Burchett of Tennessee, of course, a member of the House Oversight Government Reform Committee. And he has signed on to the bipartisan bill that would require the attorney general to release all Justice Department documents that relate to Jeffrey Epstein.
Congressman, thank you so much. We're going to do this one on one. But I figure you are an important player in this conversation. Overall, I'm sure you've been listening to us.
What do you make of the fact that the government had this meeting with Ghislaine Maxwell today? Is the Trump administration handling this the right way?
REP. TIM BURCHETT (R-TN): I don't think this thing's been handled the right way from the very beginning, Biden administration has had it for four years. They didn't do anything. Now politics is in it. Everybody's pointing fingers.
We're never going to get to the bottom of this thing, man. This town covets its lies. And they take a lot of pride in them. You know, we're not -- I don't -- I don't honestly any information that comes out now I think is -- could -- it always going to stand the test of being tainted.
But I would as I've talked to some attorneys, if Ms. Maxwell were to perjure herself and she were to cut some deal, I don't know if that's even in the realm of possibility. But if she were to, she would immediately go back to her original sentence.
But again, I -- you know, my biggest fear in all this is the innocent folks, the thousand or so innocent young ladies who are now adults. I assume that were raped and people that just flew on the plane unexpectedly. They didn't have any clue that Epstein was the dirtbag that he was.
So, there's a lot of things I have a lot of concerns about. I just like to get to the guilty parties. I don't think Trump's -- I mean, he's all over the files because he knew the guy and Palm Beach or wherever the heck that is. I've never been there. I've never been to, never been invited down to the president's pad down in Florida. You know, it's a small knit little community.
Yeah, he knew him 15 years ago, though. He -- I mean, it's pretty much documented that he banned him from Mar-a-Lago because he was a dirt bag. So, you know, it's pretty obvious what's going on with both sides. I just want to get to the bottom of it, ma'am, I passed some of the toughest laws in the country when I was in the legislature. I attacked Internet crimes against children, distribution laws. I sponsored chemical castration, death penalty for child molesters.
As I've said many times, I've held the hand of many a person who's been abused and they carry a life sentence and dadgummit its time to say to those people, let's remove that stigma from their life. Let's go after the guilty and let's protect the innocent.
HUNT: Congressman, the president was told, according to our reporting, that his name was in the files. And to your point, his relationship, his friendship with Epstein, well documented, right? Plenty of pictures out there of the two of them together, he told reporters in July that he was not told that his name was in the files.
Did he lie to the American people about that?
BURCHETT: I have no earthly idea, ma'am. I'm not a part of those conversations.
HUNT: Why do you think he would have? If he had been told, why would he say that he hadn't been?
BURCHETT: I don't know that he had. I don't -- I don't know, I wasn't in there and I couldn't, you know, I mean, I could just make assumptions and that's all it would be. But he's never lied to me, so I don't have any reason to call him a liar until he does that. Then I'll readdress it.
But I would assume that that he was telling the truth at the time.
HUNT: What would you say --
[16:40:00]
BURCHETT: And we're all dealing with what is hearsay any -- all this is hearsay anyway, at this point.
HUNT: Why do you think the president and his administration are dealing with this the way they are? Are they covering up for President Trump by refusing to release these files?
BURCHETT: No, ma'am, I don't think so. I think you've got again, you've got a situation he tried to release the grand jury, and that was not done, I was hoping -- I'm not an attorney, but I understand the secrecy of the grand jury. And people come in, and then you've got rumors and innuendos, things that aren't true, that could be put out, could be harmful again to innocent people.
But I was hoping at some point we were going to get to the point where maybe somebody in the legal community could filter out some of the -- some of the good and throw out and let us know who the dirtbags were. And I'd like to know that the chain of money and how this thing operated and if, if, in fact, he was a foreign agent, I'd like to know what's on those files.
I don't need -- I don't want to see any child pornography. HUNT: So --
BURCHETT: Frankly, that sickens me to my core. But I would like to see what's in those. And I -- and I have no earthly idea.
HUNT: Well, and --
BURCHETT: I know -- you know --
HUNT: President Trump campaigned on releasing these files, right? President Trump said that these files should come out. And if they're not covering up for him, why aren't they releasing them?
BURCHETT: Well, let me address that. He was asked two different times on the campaign if he would release him. He also said he would release the UFO files. So -- and the Kennedy files. And we're getting in the Martin Luther King. Now, we're getting the Martin Luther King files.
So, it wasn't in any kind of printed material that I saw. It just was asked out on the campaign trail. And he said he would.
So, I don't feel like he's lying. But again, the Biden administration has had this for four years. And, you know, good and well if Donald Trump was in there, if he was implicated in any shape, form or fashion, they would have released him the first day. And that's why the politics has entered into it. I just wish we could get back to taking care of the victims and going after the guilty, and I'm afraid we never will in this town because everybody is trying to cover their ears.
HUNT: One thing we saw today was the president go to the Federal Reserve to try to draw attention there. Do you think the president is simply trying to distract from what's going on with Jeffrey Epstein? Because we also saw, of course, Tulsi Gabbard yesterday at the White House.
BURCHETT: Sure, sure. No, you know, I remember Bill Clinton when he was getting in trouble with Monica Lewinsky and all that. He still had the function he could compartmentalize. And he, you know, he left office very popular. You still have a job to do.
HUNT: I'm not sure I expected that comparison, sir, I'll be honest.
BURCHETT: Not -- well, I -- well, I'm just telling you, I studied politics and I don't admire Bill Clinton. I do admire his ability to compartmentalize, because when the world is crashing around, around you, he was -- he kept saying, it's the economy, stupid. And it worked.
And the truth is, president -- President Trump did run on lowering the interest rates, and he's had a running feud with the -- with the -- with this outfit. So -- with the Fed. I mean, you know, a lot of people want to do away with the Fed. That's what I keep saying. Why are we spending two football fields or two mega stadiums on a Washington building that we're going to do away with? But in reality is we're not going to do away with the Fed. It needs -- it needs some fine tuning. It's -- and he's -- it's been a running feud with him. He's still got to be president, ma'am. He's still got to deal with stuff overseas. He's still got tariffs. He's still got this economy that's busting at the seams right now.
And so, I think we need to he still has to be president. And he can't just stop and focus on one thing. He's got a lot of -- that's why the guy never sleeps. Thats why he -- I'll get a call from at 3:00 in the morning.
HUNT: All right. Congressman Tim Burchett, thank you very much for joining us today. I really appreciate it. I'll see you soon. I hope.
BURCHETT: Always appreciate y'all, ma'am. Thank you for your fairness on this issue.
HUNT: Cheers. Appreciate it.
All right. Congressman Landsman, you have been itching to get in by my side. I was trying to get you to write down what you wanted --
LANDSMAN: Sorry. I think one of the -- two things. First, one of the reasons why this became an issue, to be fair was that Pam Bondi went on TV and she said, I've got the Epstein files, they're on my desk. Breaking news.
And then there was not much that happened. And then we learned that they weren't going to release anything, that there weren't files. All of a sudden, the story changed.
I mean, that's where the intrigue started to really escalate. And then, of course, as of yesterday, we're told, no, he was told -- Trump was told he was in -- he's all over the files and he did say to a reporter, no one told me that, which appears untrue.
And so, the intrigue is now there because of what they had done around this when they got into office.
[16:45:02]
So now the question is, will you release the files? Hopefully so.
The second thing I want to mention is that his focus on the economy is also problematic, because he is saying to the American people what Biden did, which was problematic, that the economy is great, everything's okay when the vast majority of Americans are really struggling and the inflation piece is hitting them. This economy is fundamentally broken. I didn't think that Biden was right in saying, you know, this is we're in a good place.
I think Trump is making a mistake by saying everything is great when most people know it's not.
HUNT: Brad Todd, I want to go back to the first part of what the congressman said here. And that's this is the timeline and what the administration has been doing here. So, on May 7th, Pam Bondi claims there are tens of thousands of videos of Epstein with children or child porn. It was a public claim, and it came shortly before the release of a video that was secretly recorded. She made a similar claim there, and previous to this she had, of course, come out with all these binders and said, this, this list is on my desk.
Sometime in May, Bondi briefed Trump about the Epstein files, and he tells him that his name appears among them, along with a number of other officials. May 18th is the first time the administration officials start to downplay these conspiracy theories. We have that interview with Kash Patel and Dan Bongino. They both went on Fox News. They said that Epstein did die by suicide. They essentially said, you know, there's nothing else to see here.
I mean, there is a very clear shift, a before and an after for how this administration handles this. Why?
TODD: Well, I think Elliot's pointed out eloquently that grand jury testimony is unlikely to ever be released because there its hearsay. There are things that are not prosecutable. There are names who are casually mentioned by people who might not have be corroborated. And so, I think we may look back on this and say the political mistake was not immediately going to court and asking a judge if they could release the grand jury testimony, which they would have been told no.
But for people who might have been interested in seeing it come out, then they would have some resolution on that. I think that may have been the political mistake rather than "I've got the files on my desk" comment.
HUNT: All right. Bill Brennan, you have been with us patiently throughout this whole show. I want to give you a chance to weigh in on everything that we have just seen here, which is, of course, the conclusion of that meeting with Maxwell, followed by that moment with the president and the Fed chair. Go ahead.
BRENNAN: Well, Kasie, let's talk about that meeting.
HUNT: Yeah.
BRENNAN: Let's talk about that meeting there. There's the inference that somehow, Mr. Blanche, as one of the top officials of the DOJ, just decided he would steamroll his way into Maxwell's cell and have her give up information. Doesn't work that way in the real world.
I don't know who called the meeting, but I would bet serious money that her lawyers requested the meeting. She doesn't have to talk to Maxwell or anybody else. This is -- and Elliot, who I have tremendous respect for, said, you know, why would she believe be believe she's convicted. Here's how it works. I mean, from a guy that's been knocking around federal criminal courtrooms for almost 40 years, it's Mr. Miyagi. It's wax on, wax off.
She's filing her appeal. She's pursuing her appeal. She's trying to get a rule 35, maybe, and make a deal. So what she'll do is if she went in there for several hours today and
didn't take the Fifth and gave information, she's probably protected under what's called a proffer agreement, that what she says can't be used directly against her. But if she gives valuable information, then that could be used to get a sentence reduction, maybe a better location, maybe over a Butner instead of where she said, who knows?
And to say, well, why would anybody believe or why would she do it? And what does she have to offer or be like if you were convicted, say, of racketeering and there were murders in aid of the racketeering conspiracy, but nobody knew where the bodies were. And after you lost your case and got 20 years, you said, hey, let's have a meeting. Maybe I'll tell you where the bodies are and you make 25 or six or seven.
So that's one big issue.
The other issue that's been talked about is the release of the materials, the congressman and Elliot are both correct on the grand jury issue. Rule 6E deals with when grand jury materials can be released and it's not exclusive, but basically said if it's for a judicial proceeding, if it's for a defendant who feels that there's exculpatory material there, something that would tend to exculpate or show the defendants innocence, innocence, or if a foreign entity, foreign prosecution, different sovereign, different nation needs it. Those are the three main areas.
But that's probably why the judge denied it. But I'm telling you, with respect to everybody on the panel and everybody who has said, why would anybody believe this convicted felon? It happens every day all across this nation, in every single district court, every day, there are criminal trials, drug trials, murder, racketeering trials and the like.
[16:50:03]
And people in the organization flip and cooperate, and they get up and tell jurors their story.
And most federal prosecutors who are stuck with this witness now, this government witness say, look, we wish we could give you nuns and priests and rabbis and shamans, but we can't. We have to give you the people these guys dealt with.
So, in the real world, this is not an unusual meeting. It's a bit unusual for somebody as high as Mr. Todd Blanche to have gone. But he's probably going because, A, the hot potato nature of the case and, B, the president trusts him.
HUNT: Yeah. All right. Bill Brennan, so grateful to have you on the show, sir. Appreciate it. Good points.
BRENNAN: Thank you.
HUNT: We will see you soon. I hope.
All right. We've been going for a while now. Weve got to take a quick break. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:55:10]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HULK HOGAN, WRESTLING LEGEND: When they took a shot at my hero, and they tried to kill the next president of the United States -- enough was enough! And I said, let Trumpamania run wild, brother! Let Trumpamania rule again! Let Trumpamania make America great again!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: One of the more memorable moments from the Republican National Convention one year ago. Hulk Hogan, arguably the biggest wrestling star that we know of, passed away today at the age of 71. That blond hair, handlebar mustache, larger than life personality, to put it mildly, made him a household name in the 1980s and 1990s.
That is, of course, when now President Trump was also a familiar face around the ring. He hosted a couple wrestlemanias.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HULK HOGAN: Thank God Donald Trump's a hulkamaniac.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Today, the president paid tribute to his friend on Truth Social and reminisced about that night at the RNC.
Our panel is back and we have been -- Brad Todd. I'm always grateful to have you. Scott Jennings here at CNN, one of Hulk's biggest fans and admirers. But that moment at the convention, you know, it does speak to how Hogan kind of transformed himself over time from a simply a cultural figure to a political.
TODD: Well, I think we all know that when Hulk Hogan started wrestling, wrestling was a very fringe thing. Georgia championship wrestling, I remember watching his growing up as a kid in Tennessee, these were things that happened on Saturday afternoons when nothing else was on television, and Hulk's charisma and his acting ability, and Linda and Vince McMahon's business acumen really turned wrestling into one of Americas most popular pastimes. And so, I think we ought to give him credit.
And he transferred some of that to Donald Trump at the convention. He helped with voters who were really hard to motivate to vote. But if they did vote, they would vote for Donald Trump.
HUNT: Elliot, you're a big fan as well.
WILLIAMS: I am a big fan. I was -- Brad was giving me a hard time because Scott and I -- Scott Jennings and I do text most days in WWF memes from the 1980s because it's something we share and grew up with. You know, he's a big figure that provided us a lot of joy as kids.
You know, the other thing is that Hulk Hogan was also at the center of a major lawsuit. If you remember, Gawker Media had published sex tape involving him that back in 2013, we lived in a very different world in terms of our notion of what a news organization is, what the what privacy is and what it means that end up ended up leading to Gawker being put out of business. But we think of privacy differently because of all that.
HUNT: Yeah.
RODRIGUEZ: I mean, there's a lot of parallels between Hulk Hogan and President Trump. At the end of the day. I mean, I came to know Hulk Hogan because he was a reality TV star and he had several seasons of a show with his family. Hogan knows best, so he transcended just WWE. He transcended just like turning into a political figure.
So I think for a lot of people, there's this feeling like you kind of knew him. There was a familiarity and there's no doubt. I mean, having been at that convention, everyone was stoked to see him there. It was one of the loudest cheers. I would say, from that convention.
HUNT: Congressman, thoughts?
LANDSMAN: Yeah. I you know, I represent southwestern, southwest, southwest Ohio. I grew up in southwest Ohio. We grew up on professional wrestling, on WWE, on with Hulk Hogan.
And, you know, I think that one of the things Trump does well is like he leans into the culture and, and Democrats have struggled to do something similar, which is to like, participate where people are participating and that's something I hope Democrats learn from Trump but, you know, when it comes to running a country, Trump has really struggled, in my opinion.
But in terms of like stepping into the culture where people are, he did that well. And, you know, like that's what I grew up on.
WILLIAMS: And the successor to wrestling, which is --
TODD: UFC.
WILLIAMS: UFC, right, which President Trump is quite skillfully managed to marshal to his cause and sort of get along with its where the culture is. It's where people are and quite frankly, helped lead to his victory in 2024.
HUNT: Well, to the point that he's going to stage a UFC fight at the White House. No?
TODD: For sure, that's the plan. But the question is, can he -- can Republicans continue to match Donald Trump's appeal to low propensity male voters? That's a big ticket for the midterms. And things like the UFC are key to it.
LANDSMAN: I couldn't agree more. And that's why I am pushing all of my colleagues, Democratic colleagues to get out and into these spaces. One, you're going to have fun. You are going to meet really interesting people.
But two, they're going to turn around and be like, oh, okay, I know a little bit more about Democrats, and I may be more likely to vote for them. So go out in these spaces. I think the UFC fight makes sense. Like I would do that.
WILLIAMS: I've been to a pro wrestling match, I can attest, it's a lot of fun. You should all do it. Everybody should do it.
HUNT: All right. Thank you guys very much for being here today.
Jake Tapper is standing by for "THE LEAD".
Hi, Jake.
