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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt
Now: Trump, Zelenskyy, & European Leaders Meet At White House. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired August 18, 2025 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[16:00:04]
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Attorneys with the ACLU said they are fighting to keep the facility from becoming a black hole, where detainees disappear without representation. The DHS denies those allegations. The judge said he would rule as soon as possible.
In a very eventful day today, President Zelenskyy at the White House.
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Yeah, certainly. And a phone call, soon to be expected going from Donald Trump to Vladimir Putin, whenever that meeting wraps, we've got you covered with the latest.
THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT starts right now.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
DANA BASH, CNN HOST: The breaking news, of course, is a historic day of diplomacy ongoing at the White House.
Hi, everyone. Welcome to THE ARENA. Kasie Hunt is off. I'm Dana Bash.
Right now here in Washington, a major moment in the push for an end to Russia's three and a half year long war on Ukraine. President Trump is hosting President Zelenskyy alongside some of Europe's most influential leaders, including the heads of NATO and the E.U.
Remember six months ago when the president and vice president were openly feuding with Zelenskyy in the Oval Office or just three days ago when President Trump and President Putin met in Alaska? Well, both in substance and in style, this was a pretty big shift.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I believe a peace agreement at the end of all of this is something that's very attainable, and it can be done in the near future.
MARK RUTTE, NATO SECRETARY GENERAL: I think if we play this well, we could end this.
FRIEDRICH MERZ, GERMAN CHANCELLOR: The next steps ahead are the more complicated ones. Now the path is open. You opened it last Friday.
GIORGIA MELONI, ITALIAN PRIME MINISTER: Something is changing. Something has changed. Thanks to you. Thanks also to the stalling in the battlefield.
EMMANUEL MACRON, FRENCH PRESIDENT: In order to organize such a trilateral meeting, your idea to ask for a truce or a ceasefire, at least to stop the killings, as we discussed, is a necessity.
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: I think that we had very good conversation with President Trump.
TRUMP: Very good.
ZELENSKYY: And it really was the best one. Or sorry, maybe the best one will be in the future. But it was really good.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: We're covering this story from Ukraine, from Russia, and right here in Washington, D.C., at the White House.
Let's first go to Kristen Holmes there.
Kristen, we saw and heard President Trump signal that a resolution on what he and others are calling security guarantees for Ukraine could be reached as early as today. I won't ask you what those security guarantees actually are, because I don't think anybody knows the answer to that yet. But what are you hearing from your sources as these meetings are going on about where things stand right now?
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Dana, we know from listening to these European leaders as well as listening to Zelenskyy that these security concerns and these security guarantees are one of the most important things that trying to get sorted out today. And President Trump was very interesting to see when he was asked specifically what it would look like, he was asked, would they consider would the United States consider putting troops on the ground?
And he didn't rule it out? There have clearly been behind the scenes conversations as to how far the United States is willing to go. He even said specifically that while he wouldn't answer the troops on the ground just yet, that Europeans would be the first line of defense, but that the United States would certainly be helping out on that front.
This is clearly an issue that is very important to European leaders to Zelenskyy. So, this is something they're trying to iron out today.
There were a couple of other notable moments from both the bilateral meeting with Zelenskyy, as well as this broader multilateral meeting with these various leaders, one of them being how many of them we saw pushing for a ceasefire, even at one point, President Trump, who we know after his conversation with Putin in Alaska, moved away from a ceasefire and towards a quote unquote, peace agreement. He said, I think everyone would prefer a ceasefire. Less people would be killed and then eventually went back to his idea of this peace agreement.
The other part of this that was so fascinating was hearing President Trump change his rhetoric yet again. When it comes to who is responsible for this war. We heard President Trump. We saw him posting on truth social saying it is up to President Zelenskyy to end this war. Well, today, he said that this could only be ended by both Zelenskyy and Putin.
So, clearly, some of the messaging here from these European leaders, from Zelenskyy is getting through to President Trump. It's unclear what they're going to actually get out of this. One of the big things we know that President Trump wants is to have at least the conversation around a potential trilateral meeting coming out of today.
BASH: Yeah, but they're definitely hedging their bets.
I noticed the same thing, Kristen, on the ceasefire language and that although everybody was on their best behavior in terms of their tone and their accolades for the president, President Trump, there was definitely -- there were differences there in the substance of what they were saying when it comes to that ceasefire.
Don't go anywhere. Stand by, Kristen.
[16:05:00]
I want to go now to Ben Wedeman.
You're in Kyiv in Ukraine. What are you hearing from your perch there?
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, initially, Dana, the reaction was one of relief. Many people were worried there might be a repeat of that stormy Oval Office meeting. That didn't happen. It was clear from the moment President Trump stepped outside the White House, gave a hearty handshake to President Zelenskyy. And they both smiled at the -- to the cameras. It was clear that they were going to get along at that meeting.
And so, we heard multiple officials here coming out and saying, this is the best news, that they simply got along. But beyond that, and I think as, as you know, were hearing from our people at the White House, is there are questions about where is the substance in all of this, the trilateral meeting that would involve Trump, Putin and Zelenskyy. Can that possibly happen under these circumstances? Would President Putin be willing to participate?
The question of security guarantees? Initially it was thought that the Americans were going to backstop those European security guarantees. Now, President Trump seems to be floating a more active American role in it all.
The question of land swaps, which for Ukrainians is simply unacceptable, but it seems to be taken for granted by President Trump, at least, that this is going to be an integral part of some eventual peace agreement.
So there seems to be more questions than answers out of all of this. Now, we did get in touch with one Ukrainian veteran who was watching all of this very closely, and does feel that eventually this could lead to some sort of peace agreement, but not necessarily a peace agreement. That's going to be making anyone happy.
In fact, he told us, in essence, we're being offered temporary peace at the cost of our interest. Basically, give up your land, hand over millions of people in the occupied territories to Russia, and then maybe you'll get a long respite, although even that's not certain.
So, there is a fear that perhaps the wheels are -- rather, things are moving in the direction of some sort of settlement, but not necessarily a settlement that's going to make many people here very happy -- Dana.
BASH: All right. Ben, thank you so much. Don't go anywhere.
Fred Pleitgen, you are in Moscow and we heard President Trump say a couple of times already today that his plan is when everybody is left the building, left the White House. He is going to put a phone call in to Vladimir Putin.
What are you hearing from the Kremlin as they're watching what's happening as we speak at the White House?
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the Kremlin so far is saying very little. And I think that that's very much on purpose. I think one of the things the Kremlin has decided is they're going to give President Trump the room they're in Washington to speak to Volodymyr Zelenskyy, to speak to the Europeans, and to see where everyone's at.
And I think one of the reasons for that is that essentially right now, these negotiations that are going on are really going down exactly the trajectory that the Kremlin had wanted and that Vladimir Putin had for a very long time demanded, namely, that President Trump has stopped demanding an immediate ceasefire. The Europeans, of course, now in that line as well, not demanding an immediate ceasefire. But at the same time going towards negotiations, at the end of which there is supposed to be a larger agreement.
And at the same time, of course, right now, the big question is about these security guarantees.
Now, we heard Vladimir Putin at the summit with President Trump in Alaska on Friday say that the Russians realize that the Ukrainians are going to want some security guarantees. It's unclear how much of that the Russians really are going to be looking favorably at when it comes to, for instance, the U.S. being involved, NATO troops being on the ground. One of the notable things that we did hear today was from the spokeswoman of the Russian foreign ministry saying that essentially, NATO troops on the ground in Ukraine would be a no go and would escalate things as far as the Russians are concerned.
However, that did not come from the Kremlin itself. The Kremlin itself has been completely silent on the matter at this as these negotiations are going on. But at the same time, of course, very much waiting for it to end and then to be briefed by President Trump on the matter. On the whole, though, you can see and feel the optimism on the part of
the Russians here on the ground. When you speak to regular Russians, but also when you see some of the things that negotiators of the Russian Federation have posted on their social media, namely, one of the main negotiators, Kirill Dmitriev, who's the head of the Russian sovereign wealth fund, who reposted a lot of the things that President Trump said. And it all boils down to no ceasefire, instead negotiations. That's what the Russians think is in their favor.
But of course, the big question is going to be about the territories and what Ukraine is going to be able to do there, and what is a no go for the Ukrainians, Dana.
BASH: Yeah, that is -- that is one big question of lots of big questions that are still unanswerable. Thanks to you all for your terrific reporting.
My panel here now joins me in THE ARENA.
[16:10:01]
CNN chief national affairs correspondent Jeff Zeleny, CNN political director and Washington bureau chief David Chalian, CNN contributor and former CNN Moscow bureau chief Jill Dougherty, and former Trump national security advisor and ambassador to the United Nations, John Bolton.
Thanks. Nice to see you all. Thanks for being here.
Mr. Ambassador, I want to start with you because we just played a bit of what most of the players said just about an hour ago at the White House.
Can you please translate what you saw and heard there from diplo speak to plain English?
JOHN BOLTON, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR: Not much has been resolved yet. I think the key issues remain and largely unaddressed, at the ceremonial opening there in the East Room is land. And who's going to get what.
And that's where Putin has made the most aggressive demand. He wants roughly a third of Donetsk province, which the Russian forces have been unable to take militarily. And that's a pretty bold thing to do.
So the fact they're even talking about it shows Putin's got the advantage. I think he wants to position Zelenskyy as the obstacle to peace, because he knows that what's on Trump's mind is the Nobel Peace Prize, and it remains to be seen how that's going to play out.
On the security guarantee issue, this is an enormously complex subject, enormously complex. But the fact that the Europeans are insisting on that, referring to Article 5, I'm not sure that they've read Article 5. I'll be happy to read the key --
(CROSSTALK) BOLTON: -- later.
BASH: Well, we actually do you want to go there because we actually have a copy of it that we can put on the screen, because I'm glad you brought this up. Go for it.
BOLTON: Well, so Article 5 says --
BASH: There you go.
BOLTON: -- that among NATO members, an attack on one is an attack on all. And they shall take steps pursuant to their inherent right of individual and collective self-defense under Article 51 of the U.N. charter. And now we come to the key words each U.N. -- each NATO member will take. And I quote such action as it deems necessary.
Okay, that could mean sending a note saying, we're just terribly sorry to hear about this, and please let us know how it turns out. Reinforcing that point is, right after such action as it deems necessary, it says, including the use of armed force, meaning that's an option along with other options like waving goodbye. Now, I don't know that Trump knows about that language, but smart lawyers from the United States wrote it, so we were not committed as the Treaty of Versailles and the league of nations would have committed us.
And if Trump knows that he can agree to Article 5 verbatim from the NATO treaty and still have an out.
BASH: Very, very interesting. And they -- and they all said something along the lines of Article 5, something like Article 5.
In fact, actually, lets just play the sound bites from the European leaders on this particular issue. European leaders on Article 5.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
URSULA VON DER LEYEN, PRESIDENT, EUROPEAN COMMISSION: It's very good to hear that we're working on the security guarantees, Article 5-like security guarantees. So important.
GIORGIA MELONI, ITALIAN PRIME MINISTER: I'm happy that we will begin from a proposal, which is the, let's say, Article 5 model. It's something we have to build together to guarantee peace and to defend the security of our nations.
KEIR STARMER, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: I think with the right approach this afternoon, make real progress, particularly on the security guarantees and your indication of security guarantees of some sort of Article 5 guarantees fits with what we've been doing with the Coalition of the Willing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: I want to bring Jill in in one second. But why are you chuckling. BOLTON: Yeah. Look this is what the British call ring fencing. And the
leaders did it on three points. One is NATO Article 5. The second was unity. We're all unified here and we all want peace, meaning particularly Zelenskyy. And then third, the idea of a ceasefire.
So, the Greek chorus is out there telling Trump what he's supposed to do. And I think they need to be careful in this meeting they're having now not to appear to gang up on him because they could push him in the opposite.
BASH: Gang up on Trump.
BOLTON: On Trump.
BASH: Yeah.
And then let's talk about the way Putin is going to react to hearing Article 5, because one of the things that he does, as he blames Ukraine for the fact that he, Putin, invaded Ukraine, is that Ukraine wanted to be part of NATO and the can correct both. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the biggest one of the biggest things that Putin hates about NATO is the fact is Article 5 is the sort of one for all and all for one. And he doesn't -- doesn't like that alliance in his backyard.
JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: That is true. But you know, you're getting the unofficial thing that Fred was referring to. No NATO, no way, et cetera. In these security guarantees.
But if you remember, Friday, President Putin actually did open the door to something. It was very broadly phrased, but it was you know, we think that the security of Ukraine should be provided for or something like that.
[16:15:02]
And so, I think that he actually is opening it up somewhat to the idea that there could be some sort of presence. I know the past history, but, you know, I'd be interested in everybody else's opinion on this. You could do it. You could say in, in practice there will be some sort of force, but it will not be NATO, and it will not be NATO membership. You know, it's very far away from NATO. However perhaps security. So, I think they might be able to finesse that.
BASH: Okay. So, we've been talking about a very important trees set of trees. David Chalian, talk about the forest for a second. And the moment that were in, as were sitting here in Washington and all of these leaders from Europe including Zelenskyy, are sitting at the White House as we speak with President Trump in a summit that came together, like in 24 hours.
DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Yeah. I mean, I think you could argue that today's event is actually perhaps more consequential than the event in Alaska was, on Friday. I look at this, Dana, in these last four days where were watching a five acts play unfold. The first act was the Trump-Putin summit in Alaska. What I see is the second act was over the weekend, hearing from Witkoff and Rubio speaking, where Trump did not speak and answer questions as to what and trying to push back on the narrative that he got rolled completely by Putin on Friday, setting the ground that there is some sort of path to peace here.
We're in the third act today with this hugely historic, consequential gathering of the leaders. And I take the ambassadors point. I don't think what we saw in advance of it is the thing that's consequential. I think understanding where Trump ends up at the end of this day and at the end of this meeting, is going to be the important part. The fourth act may be that trilateral event, and then the fifth act is going to be whether or not at the end of all of this, you know, there is actually a path to peace or it is more war.
And I think in our business, we all tend to try in each act to say it's a complete play. Like Trump got rolled on Friday, and then that was the whole story. Well, that's not it. I'm not trying to be naive. I understand the Putin advantage here. I'm just saying I think were in the midst of still an unfolding story in front of us that we have to follow along here.
BASH: Yeah, I think that your theater professors at Northwestern are going to be very proud of the fact that you just made this very smart, theatrical analogy.
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Look, I think the point that you said after the meeting today when is the meeting considered over today, from the president's view, is it after the European leaders or is it after his phone call with Vladimir Putin?
So, I think where President Trump ends on this day is we don't know. I mean, for all. The abnormalities of this administration and the Trump administration, this is a very normal set of meetings. Yes. It was extraordinary that it came together so quickly, and yes, it was, you know, rather historic that all the different leaders were sitting in the East Room, all plying the president with praise and things, as you would expect of any American host.
But at the end of the day here, the -- I was struck by obviously, President Putin was not at the table, but President Trump was effectively voting his proxy. He said President Putin wants to find an answer to, President Putin wants to reach an end of this. There is no evidence that, A, he will sit for a trilateral meeting certainly in a quick manner. And there's also no evidence that he wants to find an end to this as well. Certainly not in the same way that Zelenskyy does.
So, I still do not think we know, to your play analogy, I still don't think we know exactly where President Trump is on this. He likes to hear the last word. Well, who gives them the last word today? Is it Putin or is it some of the people in the room?
BASH: When he makes the phone call?
ZELENY: Right.
BASH: The only person at this table who was Donald Trump's national security advisor is you. And you just happen to have also been at the Helsinki, an integral part of that Helsinki summit in the first term.
What do you think the answer is to Jeff's question?
BOLTON: I am, by the way, Donald Trump's longest serving national security advisor so far.
BASH: No offense, but that doesn't say much.
BOLTON: That's for sure.
Well, I think you've got bookends. Youve got Alaska on one end and you've got the phone call with Putin tonight.
So, so we'll see. I think -- I'll take David's analogy, too, but it's -- I just disagree. It's not a five-act play. It's about a 30 or 40- act play.
BASH: Oh, boy.
BOLTON: And we're just getting started.
Some -- Trump wants to rush. He clearly has an objective, which is the Nobel Peace Prize. The sooner he gets it, the happier he'll be. There are other people who are not so much in a hurry.
BASH: All right. Go ahead. You want to --
DOUGHERTY: I just wanted to say there's one thing emerging. Or at least I think, which is that sequencing of ceasefire and overall peace agreement.
I mean, President Putin -- President Trump is still saying I think there ought to be a final resolution, et cetera., and Merz, the German chancellor, and Macron are already raising this idea that, no, no, we ought to have a ceasefire immediately and then we can go to big deal later. That's a big difference. I'm sure they're talking about this right now.
[16:20:01]
BASH: Yeah, and you're absolutely right. And that was one of the things that I meant when I said that there, they sounded very positive. But if you listen to some of what they were saying, there were some big differences. And the push for a ceasefire definitely was one of them.
Don't go anywhere. We are keeping our eye on the White House, where that meeting between President Trump and President Zelenskyy and the major European leaders is ongoing.
Our breaking news coverage continues after a quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BASH: And we continue to follow the breaking news at the White House, where seven European leaders and the Ukrainian President Zelenskyy, they're all meeting as we speak with President Trump.
[16:25:00]
The president emeritus at the council of foreign relations, Ambassador Richard Haass, joins our panel now.
Thank you so much for being here. Good to see you.
I want to play one of the things that we were talking about before the break here, which is a point of contention between Trump and some of the European leaders over an idea of a ceasefire agreement. Whether that is needed. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: All of us would obviously prefer an immediate cease fire while we work on a lasting peace. And maybe something like that could happen. As of this moment, it's not happening. But President Zelenskyy and President Putin can talk a little bit more about that.
MERZ: I can't imagine that the next meeting would take place without a ceasefire. So let's work on that, and let's try to put pressure on Russia.
MACRON: In order to organize such a trilateral meeting, your idea to ask for a truce or a ceasefire, at least to stop the killings are, as we discussed, is a necessity and we all support this idea.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: Richard Haass, I know you have written in the past couple of days that you agree with what we just heard from the leaders of Germany and France that a ceasefire agreement is essential as a first step before talks can continue. Why?
AMBASSADOR RICHARD HAASS, PRESIDENT EMERITUS, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Look, it's complicated as a ceasefire can be. It's an order of magnitude simpler or less complicated than a than a peace agreement. A peace agreement is meant to endure. It's meant to be permanent. It has to deal with every single so-called final status issue about territory, about the presence of foreign troops, about security issues, about population transfers, you name it.
It's interesting, if you think about it, in Cyprus and in Korea, we have had a ceasefire, an effective ceasefire for more than 50 years. We've never reached final status agreements.
In the Middle East, we've had ceasefires, very rarely final status agreements. So why would we want the war in Ukraine to continue until every last I is dotted and T is crossed? It seems to me simply a big mistake. And then we could go on from there. I think there's other issues as well.
But essentially, we want the killing to stop. A ceasefire, Dana, can be done without prejudice. Each side can keep all of its dreams and keep all of its positions. Nothing signed away. What we're simply trying to do is stop the war.
BASH: After President Trump's summit with Vladimir Putin on Friday, I want to read to our viewers some of what you wrote. You wrote, quote, a good many pundits focused on territorial issues and talk of potential land swaps. This ignores the reality that Putin's goals are more fundamental. He seeks the end to Ukraine as an independent, democratic country with ties to the West and Russia's border. There is no way that territorial exchanges will lead to a change in Russia's objectives, or to lasting peace.
So, my question for you is twofold. One is, given that, then how do you get at the sort of root causes of this crisis, which is what you just described, that Putin just wants to do away with Ukraine and make it part of Russia, because that's the way he believes it historically should be. And if that's the case, then how do you just do a ceasefire? And, you know, that could. Do you really think it could be like Korea when Putin is determined to keep going in Ukraine?
HAASS: I wouldn't deal with the root causes. Again, it's too complicated. The only way I know to get a ceasefire, which, again, doesn't prejudice all the all the complicated issues that will one day have to be dealt with. The only way I know is to basically persuade Vladimir Putin that time is not on his side.
But that will take is a clear American and European commitment to Ukraine's defense. We'll give them more. We'll give it in an open- ended way. We'll also give them the ability to bring some of the war to Russian territories.
Putin has to reluctantly conclude that more war will not give him more results. I think if we do that, then we can bring this to a ceasefire. And my guess is it won't be Putin. It will be Putin's successor or his successor. Successor and some of Zelenskyy's successors who will one day negotiate something that looks like a permanent peace.
That's an ambitious box right now. Again, I would focus on stopping the carnage, and the only way I know how to do that is to push back against Putin and his continued military effort.
BASH: And one last question. Finally, quickly. I spoke to a member of the Ukrainian parliament earlier today, and I think you made a similar point. And she was saying, you know, everybody's talking about swapping land. This isn't just a piece of land for us. This is our home. These are our people. And you don't just swap people in 2025.
HAASS: Absolutely. And the last I checked, no one is talking about Russia giving equal amounts of land.
[16:30:02]
And we talked about land swaps, say in the Middle East between Israel and Palestinians. It was for an equal amount of land. I haven't noticed that's on the table.
What is being asked of Vladimir Putin? Why should Ukraine give up its land, one that's been occupied by aggression, and two, that in some cases isn't occupied. That violates the most basic principle that there is in the world, which is territory, ought not to be acquired by military force.
So, I really don't understand why we're going down this path. The president wants peace, but it can't be peace at any price. It can't be a peace that is inconsistent or undermines the basic tenets of what order we still have in this world of ours.
BASH: Ambassador Richard Haass, thank you so much. Appreciate your time.
HAASS: Thank you, Dana.
BASH: Thank you.
Before we go to break, I know Ambassador Bolton, you have a different point of view when it comes to ceasefire first, then not only Richard Haass, but also the leaders of Germany and France.
BOLTON: Right. Almost everybody else.
I think a ceasefire followed by negotiations is very much in Richard -- in Russia's interest for exactly the reasons Richard stated. If you freeze the -- along the battle line and call that the ceasefire line and then start negotiating and negotiating all these complicated issues, that line gets harder and harder, and pretty soon it becomes a new border. Thats what happened precisely in Korea. Thats what happened precisely in Cyprus. It's happened in other cases, too.
The way to put pressure on Russia is not to end the combat, because you're also ending deep Ukrainian strikes inside Russia. But to supply Ukraine with the wherewithal to continue the fight and start Russia moving backward instead of moving forward. It was a very successful strategy for the Chinese communists and their civil war. They called it talk, talk, fight, fight. And that's what Ukraine ought to be doing.
If Russia gets a ceasefire, Putin can rebuild and repurpose his army and get ready for what we know is phase three of the ultimate objective of conquering Ukraine.
BASH: So fascinating.
All right. Don't go anywhere. We are going to sneak in a quick break.
Up next, the issue of land, as we've been talking about, it's happening at the White House as well as so many of the other very prickly issues that are going on here. What we're talking about, though, when we discuss land and the regions that Vladimir Putin so desperately wants from Ukraine. We'll show you the maps after a quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:36:54]
BASH: Welcome back to our coverage of the Ukraine summit ongoing as we speak at the White House.
Any peace deal around Ukraine would involve some agreement on territory. Now, currently, Russia occupies about a fifth of Ukraine's land. CNN military analyst colonel Cedric Leighton joins me now from the magic wall.
So, colonel, there is so much talk about land swapping. I was just talking about it earlier with Richard Haass.
Can you put a finer point on it? What exactly are we talking about when it comes to what Russia currently has since the war began over three years ago? and what territory it wants?
CEDRIC LEIGHTON, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Absolutely, Dana.
Here's basically what we're looking at. When you look at the map of Ukraine, you see these four regions right here, Kherson, Zaporizhzhia, Donetsk and Luhansk. These areas are the ones that are really in contention. This is what Russia has occupied for the most part.
They've occupied some other little areas up here. But basically what you're looking at is here in the Donetsk region. This is the area that they really want to get. The Russians really want to get this. The area around Kramatorsk.
The other thing to note about this is that there's a ring of fortifications right in through this area that if the Russians get to control this, which they have not been able to do, they would then be able to basically threaten all the other areas in this part of Ukraine.
So, all in the center right here that could come under threat. So, these would be the kinds of things that the Ukrainians are looking at to prevent. They want to keep this land even though its part of the Donbas region, which is what Russia wants.
Now, when you look down in the to the northern area right here, the Kharkiv region, there are small areas of territory right in through here and up here that the Russians control. They could potentially swap those for other lands, but its very, very small compared to what the Russians want in the Donbas region. And basically, the same thing with the Kherson region right here, which is the southern part. And as Ambassador Bolton was mentioning earlier, this is the southern part. This is the Dnipro River right here.
This is a natural area that could basically be a boundary between Russian forces here and Ukrainian forces here. But what the Russians want to do is they want to keep this. They also want to be able to threaten Odessa, which is the main port that Ukraine ships most of its grain out of.
So these are the areas that are under contention. We expect the line to basically stay this way here. But to change in the Donbas region. And that's the kind of thing that would happen for Ukraine.
We got to keep in mind this is what NATO looks like right here. Ukraine is right here on the doorstep of NATO. And that's why this is so important.
BASH: Yeah, that's -- that map right there really does help to tell the story. All of them do.
Colonel, thank you so much for that. Appreciate it.
And back with our panel.
Jill Dougherty, it's really striking to me that, I mean to say that Vladimir Putin has chutzpah is the understatement of the year, but that he even wants land that they're not currently in control of militarily, as part of this deal.
[16:40:03]
DOUGHERTY: Well, if you look at the world the way Vladimir Putin looks at it, they've already made those part of Russia. According to their law. Of course, it's completely illegal. But he actually says, you know, Donetsk, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia and Kherson are all part of Russia. And in many cases, he would say the people voted for it.
You're hearing some echo of that from President Trump when he said, you know, they're not a shot was fired when Crimea was taken over. And that's kind of the same thing.
Vladimir Putin, you know, does things in kind of a legalistic way. Of course, its completely illegal. But his crafty, you know, he's studied as a lawyer. So maybe this is the way he looks at the world.
He does these kind of fake, legal things and the fake legal things in, in all of these areas have been passing out Russian passports to people who live in those areas, having plebiscites at the point of a gun. You know, forcing people to move from place to place. And then he says, surprise, it's ours.
And this is what we're dealing with. You know, he's -- he has a physical control, but he also has this kind of legalistic approach, which is completely illegal. And it's hard to fathom --
BASH: Yeah. Well, if anybody understands his, his brain, it's you. You studied it for a very long time.
Jeff Zeleny, I want you and our viewers to listen to something that the President Trump didn't intend to be public, but his mic was hot. This is as he and the other European leaders were sitting down to the meeting, and he was talking about Vladimir Putin and what Trump believes Putin will do for him personally.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I think he wants to make a deal -- I think he wants to make a deal for me. You understand that? As crazy as it sounds.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: Jeff? ZELENY: A couple of key words in there are for me. I think he wants to
make a deal for me. I mean, it's not altogether surprising that President Trump thinks this, it -- you know, whenever there's a hot mic moment, were always slightly more interested than when its something that he would have just said.
It's not actually all that dissimilar from things he said throughout the campaign. But what's different about it now is the whole comment there wants to make a deal. For me, that was at the root of President Trump's entire argument that I can end this on day one, that his relationship with President Putin was so strong from that first term, they were stablemates, as he once said, on "60 Minutes", of which there was no evidence of.
But this is just kind of the latest version of it. Theres been zero evidence that the president Putin is using his relationship with the Donald Trump to do anything for Trump, to end it for Trump. So, I think it was just a window into President Trump's mindset there, and perhaps not that surprising, but revealing.
BASH: Yeah, I mean, it is a good point that most of what President Trump says, you don't need a hot mic because he just says it on a mic that he doesn't care if it's hot or not.
CHALIAN: I mean, he said it just earlier.
BASH: But yeah --
CHALIAN: But for me versus for Biden, he -- this is Biden's war, he said sitting in the oval office with Zelenskyy, that, they had agreement on Friday that Putin agreed with him. That had Biden, you know, had Trump been in office, this war would not have started the way that Trump had been arguing forever. And so, he loves, loves, loves the thinking through his lens that just by his presence and being that world events would have been different.
ZELENY: But it's been eight months and he's not been able to end it.
BASH: Yeah. Is there any evidence that what Donald Trump clearly believes that Trump, that Putin will do something for him is true?
BOLTON: Look, this is evidence that Vladimir Putin in Alaska got the magic working again, that that KGB training to assess people, to see their desires and their weaknesses got him right back where he wanted to be. And the point that he that never would have been a war had Trump and President Vladimir Putin said four weeks after the inaugural in response to a reporter's question in Moscow. And I'm sure it lit Trump up at that point.
So Putin will get another chance tonight after the Europeans work it -- work Trump over to work him right back. It's just like a vaccine.
BASH: Knowing --
(LAUGHTER)
BASH: That's a whole different conversation.
Knowing President Trump the way that you do, what is that conversation phone call that he's going to make? I know I'm jumping ahead right now, but I'm just curious what you think after this meeting is done. What's that phone call going to be, and how important is it that its Putin who's going to get the last word at the end of the day with that call?
BOLTON: Well, I think the unspoken issue here really is land. And if published reports in this country are true, that Putin basically said, if I don't get Donetsk, there isn't going to be anything and you have to go to Zelenskyy and say, if you give Russia, Donetsk, the rest of the province, the 30 percent Russia doesn't control, then a lot of these other things are possible.
[16:45:10]
And if that is rejected by this group, Trump is going to report that to Putin. And Putin's going to say, I told you Zelenskyy was the obstacle to peace. And that's the next part of the manipulation.
I'm doing this for you, Donald. We're on this together. Zelenskyy is the problem. And again, that's why all the all the European leaders said in the public part of that ceremony, all of us here want peace meaning including Zelenskyy. I think that's where -- that's the first place Putin will go at whether he gets a chance to go after the security guarantees may not even be necessary.
BASH: Yeah, that's a whole another conversation that I definitely want to have with all of you. At another time. Thank you so much.
Actually, don't go anywhere. Up next, the politics of peace. How attempts to end the war in Ukraine are not only diplomatic, but also very political here in the U.S. for Donald Trump.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:50:23]
BASH: You're looking live at the White House, where right now, President Trump is hosting Ukrainian President Zelenskyy and other European leaders.
Joining the panel now is CNN political commentator and former Biden White House communications director Kate Bedingfield, and former chief of staff to then Donald Trump vice president, Mike Pence. Marc Short is here.
Thanks so much. It's great to see you both.
Marc Short, I want to start with you about the fact that President Trump earlier today didn't rule out yes or no when asked about the potential for security guarantees that are talked about for Ukraine, including U.S. troops.
I can't imagine that the GOP based, the Trump base right now would be excited about that at all.
MARC SHORT, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF TO VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: Well, Dana, I think they'd be about as excited as seeing American troops in Ukraine as they are about the president not sharing the Epstein files at this point.
I think that, you know, the biggest difference between the first administration, President Trump, and the second administration is that the first administration actually canceled Nord Stream II, actually provided Javelin missiles to Ukraine. They actually had additional sanctions on Russia. They killed over 100 mercenaries in Syria, Russian mercenaries who crossed the red line.
The second administration, I think, has been far more appeasing toward the former Soviet Union and Russia and Vladimir Putin. And so, I think that there's just a -- there's just a huge difference between the way the first administration, with Ambassador Bolton and now security advisor, the way they approach them. So even in Helsinki, even though the rhetoric was friendly, the actions were tough. This go round, it seems that there really hasn't been the same actions. I think if you're actually going to get to peace, the administration is going to need to have some of those sanctions enforced to actually get success with Putin.
BASH: And, Kate Bedingfield, you were White House communications director when Vladimir Putin invaded Ukraine under Joe Biden. As you look at what's happening at the place you used to work right now, what goes through your mind?
KATE BEDINGFIELD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I remember the night of the invasion. I remember Joe Biden talking to Zelenskyy on the phone, and he said, what can I do? Tell me what I can do. And Zelenskyy said, rally the West, bring Europe together.
And so, seeing the European heads of state at the White House today gives me some encouragement. I think what we've seen over this last week, as we've watched Trump, what appears to be essentially acquiesce to Putin, elevating him, welcoming him to the United States without extracting anything in exchange, you know, I think is deeply concerning.
You know, he set the bar. Trump set his own bar at being able to end this conflict on day one. Obviously, it is far more complicated than that. He hasn't been able to do that.
So, you know, to your question to Mark, he has not been able to keep that promise to his base. But the way in which he's approaching this, suggesting that he may be allowing Putin to essentially continue to roll on in an effort to take land, have permanently land that he's taken by force, and then potentially move further in the future is concerning.
And so, watching -- not feeling confident that the U.S. president is going to be willing to draw that hard line where it needs to be drawn, I think should be of concern to everybody. BASH: And, Marc, think about the way that the president thinks about
he -- he thinks about himself as a political -- dominant political figure back home. I know that Ambassador Bolton has talked a lot today about him wanting the Nobel Peace Prize, but he also tends to, Epstein notwithstanding, have a very keen ear and eye, on the people who brought him to the dance.
SHORT: I don't think there's any question about that. I think he is a dominant political figure. I think that the way that he's come back from where he ended the first administration is remarkable, and I think that he does have a significant following. And I think he often beta tests a lot of things in the media to see how his base will react to it and then responds accordingly.
And so I think that there's -- there's a lot more chapters in this as well. And there's could be a lot more moves from the president, depending on how his supporters respond to it.
BASH: All right. Marc Short, Kate Bedingfield, thank you so much. Great to see you both. Thank you.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:59:27]
BASH: Welcome back.
The meeting at the White House, the summit is still ongoing. And as it is, we're going to get some final thoughts from our panel here.
Ambassador Bolton?
BOLTON: Well, remember, whatever happens with this meeting with Trump and the European leaders, Vladimir Putin has the last word tonight.
DOUGHERTY: And the last word is pretty serious. RT, the Russian media, says the old world order cracked in Alaska. So Ukraine is part of a bigger plan. And the bigger plan is to undermine the West.
CHALIAN: Trump's main goal, I think with all the specifics, we talk about land swaps or ceasefire or not. He's just trying to move the ball down the field to bring this to some sort of conclusion. And that's all he is focused on.
ZELENY: I think one thing we know, there is a reset also in the relationship with the Vladimir Zelenskyy and President Trump, at least for today, the flattery was clear, and they did seem to have more of a bond certainly than six months ago.
BASH: Thank you all so much. I learned a lot.
Pamela Brown, I always learn a lot from you. You're standing by, you're in for Jake on "THE LEAD".
