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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt

Now: DOJ Releases Transcripts & Audio Of Its Interview With Ghislaine Maxwell & Sends Epstein Records To House Committee; FBI Searches Home & Office Of Ex-Trump Aide John Bolton. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired August 22, 2025 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:00]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: An interesting note there, Boris.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Yeah, I was just pointing out to Brianna that as part of this testimony, Maxwell says of Jeffrey Epstein's death that she does not believe that he died by suicide.

DAVE ARONBERG, FORMER STATE ATTORNEY, PALM BEACH COUNTY: Wow.

SANCHEZ: I mean --

ARONBERG: She obviously hasn't worked in government. She doesn't know that -- that cameras fail because old equipment. People fall asleep who are supposed to be on the job, who are overworked and underpaid, and also the people closest to it all, Julie K. Brown, the reporter, and others, Alan Dershowitz all said it's a suicide. So, she's a conspiracy theorist herself then.

GEORGE CONWAY, CONSERVATIVE ATTORNEY: And she's going to light the fire for more conspiracy theories on the right.

KEILAR: Dave and George, thank you so much to both of you for being with us for this.

And THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT starts right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

DANA BASH, CNN HOST: And that breaking news is the release of an interview, a series of interviews with Ghislaine Maxwell by the deputy attorney general of the United States of America.

Hi, everyone. Welcome to THE ARENA. Kasie Hunt is off. I'm Dana Bash.

Just moments ago, the Justice Department released both audio recordings and transcripts of those interviews with Ghislaine Maxwell, the Jeffrey Epstein accomplice serving 20 years after being convicted of federal crimes, including sex trafficking of minors.

Now, these interviews took place at the direction of the attorney general, Pam Bondi, and they were conducted over a two day period. It happened last month, in July, and again, they were conducted by the deputy attorney general, Todd Blanche. Blanche had previously been one of President Donald Trump's personal attorneys during his criminal trials.

Following that interview, Maxwell was moved to a much lower security facility. Also today, the Justice Department gave the House Oversight Committee files related to the Epstein investigations. The chair of that committee says he plans to make those files public after they've reviewed and redacted any victims' identities.

We begin with the release of the Maxwell interview. My panel is here, along with CNN White House reporter and our crime and justice correspondent, Katelyn Polantz.

Katelyn, I'm going to start with you before I go over to Alayna. You have been going through, along with our team, these transcripts and these -- this audio. What is the headline that you can tell us so far?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME & JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Two things that Ghislaine Maxwell said to the deputy attorney general, Todd Blanche, really jump out in this interview transcript. And in the audio, she says that Donald Trump, she never, absolutely never in any context, heard allegations he had done anything inappropriate and she never witnessed him doing anything appropriate, even though she was witness to his long-standing friendship with Jeffrey Epstein. Epstein visiting Mar-a-Lago. Ghislaine Maxwell herself also being in contact with Donald Trump. She describes it as something she witnessed in social settings.

But she says, Dana, quote, I never witnessed the president in any inappropriate setting in any way. In the times that I was with him, he was a gentleman in all respects. That's one thing that jumps out.

The other thing that jumps out, dana, she unequivocally says absolutely no. There is no list. That is when she's being asked about a client list. That much has been said about publicly. Is there one that exists?

Here's what Ghislaine Maxwell had to say during that interview. The audio.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Resuming the recorded proffer of Ms. Maxwell. It is 2:16 on Thursday, July 24th. The recording device is now on.

TODD BLANCHE, DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL: So when we stopped to take a break, we were talking about what has been publicly discussed as a black book or the Epstein list. And, that's where we are.

So you said you think you might know or that you're aware of kind of the origin of this narrative.

GHISLAINE MAXWELL, EPSTEIN ACCOMPLICE: Right. I just want to reiterate again, there is no list that I am aware of. I've never at any time, at least during the period of time when I was present.

BLANCHE: Okay.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

POLANTZ: So, there is Ghislaine Maxwell's voice. She is speaking to Todd Blanche. He's the deputy attorney general questioning her over these two days.

And, Dana, this is her saying there's no list. She goes on to say in the interview that she believes the story of a client list of Jeffrey Epstein came out because of a number of different ways people were putting together names from the evidence around this case. There is, of course, a contact book of Jeffrey Epstein that the Justice Department has. It was part of her trial. They've released it publicly before, but that certainly is not the list of alleged clients of Jeffrey Epstein, who may have also partook in sexual abuse -- Dana.

BASH: Okay. Stand by. There is a lot more. Obviously, these -- as we said, there was this two days of interviews.

[16:05:02]

There's a lot more that we're learning and we're hearing about their conversation.

Alayna, I want to go to you just on this part of the transcript, part of the interview. The notion of her saying there is no client list. Just when it comes to the politics of what the president is dealing with here, which is some people in the core of his base who have been very upset that the quote unquote, Epstein client list isn't being released by his own Justice Department. Now they can point to Ghislaine Maxwell herself telling Todd Blanche, well, there isn't one.

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: That's exactly right. And that was really what got this administration in the first place. And a lot of the hot water and the backlash that they've seen from their handling of the Epstein files was that they put out a memo earlier this summer essentially saying that there is no client list. That was one of the things that really caused a lot of criticism from the right, and particularly among the president's base, that they didn't necessarily believe them when they said that. And so, this could potentially add, you know, give them some cover on that argument.

But, look, I do want to share, Dana, just some of you know, what I've been hearing in my conversations with people here at the White House because, you know, we were the ones who actually broke the news earlier this month that they had audio and transcript of Blanche's interview with Maxwell. And they had been digitizing it, transcribing it, and redacting it with, you know, the decision having already been made earlier this month to ultimately release it. Part of the reason we've seen it been a couple of weeks now where we haven't seen it come to light, is because there have been a lot of people in this White House who recognize that the Epstein story, you know, it hit its peak and its fervor of everyone covering it and paying attention to it earlier this summer. But they felt like there was a point where it actually had kind of died down.

And this month, they believed the story had kind of died down. And there were people in this White House who said we shouldn't be the ones to resurface it. But of course, now we are seeing them make these materials public. I would note that it comes the same day as we know that the Justice Department is handing over the files to the House Oversight Committee. They recognize, of course, that this is already going to be in the news today. So I think that's part of the timing for why they're doing this now.

But they -- there are a lot of people here who recognize that they need to be in better control of the optics on this, that they need to be the ones kind of being more proactive rather than reactive to a lot of this Epstein news. And that's exactly what they're trying to do with the publishing of this, this audio, but also the transcript and also trying, of course, you know, there's parts of it that they're going to focus on, including what Katelyn just laid out of Ghislaine Maxwell, essentially saying that she didn't know of any wrongdoing that Trump engaged in in his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein.

BASH: Okay, Katelyn, what else is sticking out to you and to other members of our team as we go through these transcripts?

POLANTZ: Yeah, Dana, there's two other things, as well as what to what Alayna was just saying about how to quell that furor of people wanting more and more and more -- wanting to know about a client list. Ghislaine Maxwell, she gets a little meta in the way she is thinking about this, her and Todd Blanche at the end or in the second half of the second day of the interview, start talking about what people are looking for in this narrative of Jeffrey Epstein that has been going on for more than a decade, and she compares it to a Salem witch trial. She says people have gone and lost their minds for this thing, but the issue is, how do you satisfy a mob who can't understand the lifestyle of, say, high profile people who may be around Jeffrey Epstein or Jeffrey Epstein himself?

Just really an unusual moment of recollection and observation from someone who is a criminal defendant, convicted, appealing her sentence, and then also is still serving the federal prison time there. Dana, she says, though one thing in this transcript that is very likely going to cause some people not to feel satisfied with the findings here, with what is being told by Maxwell, what is being said by the Justice Department, she says, I do not believe he, Jeffrey Epstein, died by suicide. No, that is Maxwell speaking --

BASH: Katelyn?

POLANTZ: Yes.

BASH: Forgive me. We actually have audio of that part.

POLANTZ: OK.

BASH: Let's listen to it and talk more about it on the other side

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

MAXWELL: I do not believe he died by suicide. No.

BLANCHE: And do you believe that -- do you have any speculation or view of who killed him?

MAXWELL: No, I don't.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BASH: And then she goes on to talk about what it's like in prison, and she talks about the fact that, she said they will -- I don't believe he died by suicide in a prison where I am. They will kill you or they will pay.

[16:10:00]

Somebody can pay a prisoner to kill you for $25 worth of commissary. That's about the going rate for a hit with a lock today.

POLANTZ: Yes. Ghislaine Maxwell, she was in a low security prison in Tallahassee, Florida, serving her sentence. And her attorney has said very little publicly about why she was moved to a minimum security camp after she did this interview. But he said one thing publicly, saying that she was moved to somewhere safer. So, there is a possibility Ghislaine Maxwell is speaking from some experience there. She has claimed in court as well that her life could be in danger in prison. So that's her speculating about Jeffrey Epstein.

But, Dana, the House Oversight Committee, they are investigating this and have called a number of top officials to speak to them. Beginning of this week, it was Attorney General Bill Barr appearing on Capitol Hill. And he said the opposite. No, he did not believe that Jeffrey Epstein died by suicide when he was in federal custody in a jail at the time that Bill Barr was attorney general for Donald Trump -- Dana.

BASH: Okay. Thanks. Standby to both of you.

I want to go to my panel, which is in THE ARENA right now. The former homeland security adviser to Vice President Mike Pence, Olivia Troye. Alex Thompson joins our panel, along also with the former DOJ spokesperson, Xochitl Hinojosa, and Republican strategist Brad Todd. There you are, both CNN political commentators.

We're also joined by the former deputy director of the FBI and now senior law enforcement analyst here at CNN, Andrew McCabe. Andy, I want to go to you and just take a step back as we dig through these transcripts and just remember that this is a woman who is serving a 20-year prison sentence for, she was convicted of sex trafficking and other offenses for facilitating Epstein's sexual abuse of underage teens.

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yeah, that's right. I think it's also helpful to remember that the Justice Department had such a low judgment on her credibility at the time of her sentencing and during her prosecution, that they almost charged her with perjury or 1001-related violations. So, this is nothing about this situation and this interview is normal or kind of according to normal rules and processes. It is possible for people convicted of serious offenses to then reach out to the government and offer to cooperate in an effort to get a sentence reduction. And it happens in limited circumstances. But it has to be under

certain conditions. The person who seeks to cooperate has to be. You got to be able to prove that they are absolutely being truthful and telling you the full extent of everything that they've done, and you have to be able to put them on the stand in a following prosecution to go after somebody bigger, more significant and to be believed by the jury.

Almost none of those factors apply here. And I think evidence of that fact is that Todd Blanche, the deputy attorney general, conducted this information, this interview essentially by himself, the deputy attorney general never goes on an interview.

BASH: Right.

MCCABE: And you would never interview a prisoner without FBI agents present because you need the agents to be witnesses in any testimony that the prisoner might give. The whole thing is just like upside down world in terms of how these processes are usually undertaken, which raises all kinds of questions as to what was the real purpose of this interview, because it wasn't any kind of follow on prosecution.

BASH: Right. I mean, this happened, what, like three weeks ago in the heat of or on the heels of really the heat of the Justice Department and President Trump getting a lot of blowback for not following through on their political promises during the campaign to release the files, release the client list, which she is saying is doesn't actually exist.

And perhaps the answer to your question lies in the answers that she gave to Todd Blanche throughout these interviews about the president himself and the answers effectively nothing to see here with Donald Trump. I'll just give one example. Andy, I actually never saw the president in any type of massage setting. I never witnessed the president in any inappropriate setting in any way. The president was never inappropriate with anyone, Maxwell said. In the times that I was with him, he was a gentleman in all respects.

MCCABE: I mean, is it a coincidence that the testimony she delivered, which we've now heard and what you which you quoted there is essentially exactly what the White House was looking for, right?

[16:15:05]

They needed someone to say there is no client list, and they needed someone to say, president Trump has never done anything wrong. Immediately after the interview, she receives a benefit. She hasn't cooperated. There's no deal. She hasn't helped put anybody else in jail. But she gets a rather significant benefit.

Her status in the system is reclassified that, inexplicably, sex offenders are not allowed traditionally to go to minimum security facilities. She is reclassified in the system and transferred to a minimum security facility that is infinitely, you know, better than the place where she was. And my final point here, Dana, as if you need another weird point, is

that under no circumstances, if you were thinking about cooperating someone using their information because you believed it, you would never, ever release a transcript or much less a tape of the interview, because that could then be used to discredit them later if you needed to use them, if you intended to use them in trial, in a prosecution of someone else.

So, there's been no -- there was never any intent to use her as a traditional cooperator to put other people in jail, to advance the interests of justice. There was a different agenda here, and the fact that the biggest beneficiary of this, these interviews so far seems to be President Trump, I think that tells us a lot.

BASH: All right, Andy, thank you so much.

And back to our panel, Alex Thompson, when you ask the Justice Department or asked the Trump White House what is the reason that the second highest law enforcement official in the United States of America took the time in the middle of July to go to a prison and spend two days interviewing a woman who was convicted for a -- convicted for sex trafficking of people underage and is in prison for 20 years.

ALEX THOMPSON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: It's like all their answers when it comes to Epstein, is deflection. And the only reason we're talking about this case is not because there's a sudden interest in Ghislaine Maxwell. It's for the politics of it.

Donald Trump promised to release all the files of this case. He did not. Then he had a backlash from both his base and from the Democratic Party that smelled blood. Then, as a result, they are trying to do the bare minimum of look like they are trying to do something to release the files of this case, but then they are not.

If you look at who James Comer is trying to bring in, they are not trying to bring in all the people that Republicans and so forth that are trying to -- that could be -- that could implicate Donald Trump or people close to Donald Trump. They are trying to sort of muddy the waters. That's what's happening here.

BASH: Brad?

BRAD TODD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, the House oversight committee voted on a bipartisan way for subpoenas under it. That's -- that's how come the House is now handling this. I find it pretty interesting that Robert Garcia, who's the ranking Democrat on the House Oversight Committee, was wholly uninterested when Merrick Garland was at the DOJ and Joe Biden was president in this case. Garcia showed no interest at all, no Democrat on the House Oversight Committee showed any interest in it. And now suddenly, it's the most important thing they can talk about.

To me, that smells of politics and I think Democrats are going to pay a price for that, too. XOCHITL HINOJOSA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: As someone who was at the

Justice Department at the time, I'll say that you don't release case files. You do not release transcripts from interviews, like the way the Justice Department did today. That is something you don't do for a number of reasons, because there could be information that is in those transcripts, et cetera.

It was the current sitting attorney general who said that she would release the Epstein files. There was -- she is the person who is in charge of that. She was going against the DOJ precedent. And so, for her to backtrack from that smells fishy to somebody. And now we certainly know --

BASH: Smells fishy to a lot of people, the MAGA base.

HINOJOSA: And the MAGA base as well. And to Democrats as well.

What I find interesting is that they were releasing this transcript today. The House, the DOJ files went up to the House today. They are likely to be largely redacted.

The Justice Department needed some sort of political win to show the MAGA base that they are being as transparent as possible, and this is the only thing that they could do. And Ghislaine Maxwell gave them that political win, as Andy said, because said, you know, Trump was not necessarily, you know, someone who participated in these acts, actually praised him. And then and then moved forward and then said all sorts of other things that would end up helping the White House, like saying that there isn't a list.

So, I find it interesting here that this is plainly politics from the Justice Department. And Democrats should be asking a lot of questions.

BASH: Olivia?

OLIVIA TROYE, FORMER HOMELAND SECURITY ADVISER TO VICE PRESIDENT PENCE: I don't think it should just be Democrats asking the questions. I think this is completely orchestrated. I think they have completely set this up. I think it's absolutely ridiculous.

And also -- I mean, look, the main point is why would I trust Maxwell's word right now? I mean, she is a convicted pedophile. Why would we take anything she says at her word?

And so, I think -- you know, looking at this, I think this is what they needed.

[16:20:03]

They needed something to hang their hat out by that, by them, I mean the Trump team. And I think they got it. They went down there and now they've given her a, you know, a lofty place to land. And I think this is more of the same. It'll be interesting to see what right wing influencers say in response to this and whether they -- they're willing to carry the water for them on this one. BASH: Let me read a little bit more of the transcript where Maxwell

talks about the allegations that Epstein abused underage girls, and she said, I never saw that with them at all. But she added, I'm not saying that Mr. Epstein did not do those things. I don't feel comfortable saying that today, given what I now know to be true. I'm not here to defend him, she said. And she insisted, however, that she did not participate in that activity with underage girls.

Well, you know, that may be what she's saying now, but she is in jail and she will be there unless she's pardoned by this president or another president. She'll be there for the next, what, 19 years?

THOMPSON: Well, Donald Trump doesn't seem -- while he's kept open the possibility of a pardon, he is also sort of just been dangling it in front of her. And, you know, to Brad's point, yeah. Are Democrats playing politics with this now? Because, yes, of course. But that's also because Donald Trump broke his promise that he made on the campaign trail.

And this -- this case is going to continue because there are actually Republicans in the House that are not going to be satisfied with the answers that are delivered on the Friday of an August of -- like an August recess.

TODD: Well, she's going to -- she's going to stay in prison, as she should stay in prison, and everybody involved should go to prison. That's not up for debate. And I think you're right. I think the House is going to continue to pursue it. And I think they'll pursue it on a bipartisan basis.

They're going to run into a problem, though, and that's that the judge is not going to release let them release the grand jury testimony. And that's probably where most of the information that people want is, I don't know how to resolve that. I guess the House is going to ask a lot of frustrating questions here in the next month or so.

BASH: All right. I want to go back to Katelyn Polantz. Katelyn, you have more audio to share.

POLANTZ: Yes. This is audio from, I believe, the top of the interview. The very beginning where Ghislaine Maxwell sits down with Todd Blanche and he outlines the terms of her sitting down in such an unusual fashion with the deputy attorney general. Here's more.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

BLANCHE: The most important part of this agreement is that this isn't a cooperation agreement, meaning that by you meeting with us today, were really just meeting. I'm not promising to do anything.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

BASH: Fine now.

POLANTZ: So underlining that, Todd Blanche, the deputy attorney general, number two in the Justice Department, saying to Ghislaine Maxwell, someone who is in the custody of the Bureau of Prisons, we are not going to make any promises to you here. He then goes on to outline what the immunity is she gets. She does get some in this interview, and it's that anything she tells Blanche that is true essentially can't be used against her in court. If she lies, that's off the table.

There is a very peculiar situation here, though, because Ghislaine Maxwell, in that moment, is unhappy with how she's been treated at the Bureau of Prisons. That's well documented in her criminal case, and she's trying to appeal the conviction that she is serving for a 20- year sentence in the federal prison. That appeal is currently before the U.S. Supreme Court has not been decided, making it even more unusual. The Justice Department would be speaking to her at that moment in time.

But there is this moment where Ghislaine Maxwell is speaking to the Justice Department had never before is trying to provide them information, and the information she is providing them gives her a little bit of legal cover to speak very, very unusual given who she is, where she is as a defendant and the fact that Blanche isn't even a line prosecutor. He's a political appointee at the top of the Justice Department, sitting there in the U.S. attorney's office in Tallahassee a month ago.

BASH: Yeah. And the presidents former criminal defense attorney. We can't underscore enough how unusual all of this is.

Back here with our panel.

Xochitl, just on that immunity question and even more broadly on the point that Todd Blanche was making at the beginning, there, he obviously was recording it, so he knew it would be recorded. And presumably this was done and recorded for the sole purpose of this moment to release it to the public in order to get some political immunity for the president of the United States.

HINOJOSA: That's right. There's a reason why it wasn't a career prosecutor that was -- they didn't put a career prosecutor up to do this interview. They didn't put an FBI agent to conduct this interview. They put Donald Trump's right hand person who defended him in all of the indictments that the Justice Department had against him, and the other cases in New York, et cetera.

[16:25:08]

This is someone that Donald Trump trusts. Todd. Blanche understands what he understood, what he had to get out of this interview. He understood how to ask the questions. He understood that it would be a win if they came out of there with her, acknowledging that there is no list and that Donald Trump did not commit any crime whatsoever.

So, he knew what he was going to do out of this. She also knew what she needed to get out of this. She wants a pardon. She wants to get -- she wanted to get transferred to another facility. There are things that she wanted.

BASH: Which she did.

HINOJOSA: Which she did. And so, she knew that what she had to say in order to please Donald Trump so that she could get what she wanted. And you saw that in the transcript.

BASH: Brad, I just want to ask you, knowing what you do about the MAGA base, and I know this is not certainly I would venture to say most Republicans who voted for Donald Trump, they're not driven by the Epstein situation. They were driven by affordability and other issues. But there is a core, very vocal, very powerful online base of Donald Trump and his supporters who care very much about this.

Are they going to be placated by this? Because my sense is that this interview and making it public is aimed, I would say, bullseye, right. For them.

TODD: What is a little clickbaity? You're right. I mean, the vast majority of people in the president's coalition are concerned with what I would consider to be much bigger issues than this.

One thing I want to address about Todd Blanche is I think those voters who are concerned about it and the talking heads among the clickbait right who are interested in it, I think it's important that Todd Blanche did the interview and not a line prosecutor.

The Department of Justice's line prosecutors are in disrepute among many Republicans. These are the people that tried to go after Donald Trump in many ways. I don't think that they would have accepted a career DOJ employee doing that interview.

BASH: Beyond the process. That's an interesting point. Beyond the process. Look at what she said about President Trump.

TODD: Oh, I think there's going to be more questions because this is not a -- then we're going to see it play out in the House. That's why you saw House -- many House Republicans vote on subpoenas. You're going to see more of this.

BASH: So, this is not going to satisfy.

TODD: I don't think this is the end. But I think they're going to eventually hit a brick wall with what judges will let them release the information people want is going to be stuff that they can't see, because the judge won't let them see it. That's what's going to happen.

BASH: All right, everybody, stand by. We're going to sneak in a quick break. Up next, more of the audio of that interview between Ghislaine Maxwell and Todd Blanche of the Justice Department.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:32:01]

BASH: Welcome back.

I want to get straight to Katelyn Polantz.

Katelyn, for those who are just catching up, we do have a transcript. A very long transcript of the interview that Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche conducted with Ghislaine Maxwell inside prison. She's serving her 20-year sentence. And you have some new audio because it's a transcript and also audio recordings.

What does it say.

POLANTZ: Yeah, Dana, the Justice Department did also release the audio recording of f Ghislaine Maxwell. Speaking to Todd Blanche at the end of July. She says she struggles to remember some of the things that happened years ago with Jeffrey Epstein.

Here's a little more from that audio.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAXWELL: And then I believe I don't remember. I think I got a phone call, actually, I wasn't in Palm Beach. I think I got a phone call that there was a police at his house or something.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

POLANTZ: So, Dana, one of the things that is coming out bit by bit as were reading this transcript and the various answers, Ghislaine Maxwell is giving to the Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche is that she is distancing herself from any possible sexual abuse of girls who would be underage, or the fact that she may have known that there were girls underage around Epstein, distancing herself from saying when Epstein was at Mar-a-Lago, for instance, where he has been accused of finding a masseuse there, that that is something that she wasn't there with him for, that she was at Mar-a-Lago alone. If she had gone there.

She also is saying that she doesn't believe the testimony of one of the victims who testified at her trial under oath of abuse at the age of 14, 15 or 16. She says that she believes that person's testimony is incorrect, that it is inaccurate. And she also is saying that she is not here to defend Jeffrey Epstein, but she generally does not remember or is privy to things that he had been accused of -- Dana.

BASH: Well, the jury believed those victims and survivors and clearly not her.

Thank you so much for that.

Back with the panel.

And Shan Wu, former federal prosecutor, is here.

I'd like you to weigh in on what we've been seeing and hearing so far.

SHAN WU, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Well, it sounds like what you would expect of the way this has happened. She's basically vouching that President Trump, the gentleman, hasn't done anything wrong. She has really poor recollection of things decades ago, and not at all unexpected.

She's really trying to do a favor for herself, having this chance now with no real consequences. It's only an upside for her to say that she didn't have much to do with this. And from a prosecutorial standpoint, that's preposterous for this kind of interview.

I mean, the basic rule is you need to be completely straight with us. You need to own up to what you're convicted for.

This is not a chance for you to revisit the trial allegations and claim that actually, you didn't have much to do with this. So, it looks pretty bad.

BASH: Joey Jackson, I want to bring you in. I assume you're in New York. You're our legal analyst, and obviously a powerhouse attorney.

Your initial read of what we're seeing?

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: So, Dana, when us attorneys are in court, we approach jurors. And we always ask them to use their common sense and good judgment. Why is that relevant here? It's relevant here because what's mystifying to me is that you're stonewalling the release of the Epstein files. You're stonewalling information which will be written documentation and investigation that has been long standing where everyone could see from themselves, right?

Yes, it will be redacted. What does that mean, Dana? It means you black out things that you want to protect, the privacy of victims, et cetera. But if you release the files, everyone could see exactly what happened. You don't do that, but instead you send your former defense attorney to go and investigate, and you get information, which obviously is the information you're looking for.

Not only did she indicate, Dana, that is Ghislaine Maxwell in this interview, that Mr. Trump did nothing wrong at all, but she indicates how she likes him very much. Her father likes him very much. She admires him very much.

There was nothing inappropriate done. And so what am I saying? If you want to get to transparency, what you do is you release the information. So, my takeaway from this is that the files, the Epstein files become more important than ever with respect to letting them be the voice, the files themselves for what happened.

In addition to that, Dana, the corroboration right will be important. What does corroboration mean? It means I don't care what you tell me. I care what the records say, what the emails say, what the phone logs say, what the text messages say, what the surveillance says, what the receipts and the flight records, et cetera., say. And so, it's just really disturbing.

Last point, and that is there's one person in the universe that can help her one. And that's the person sitting in the White House because he can pardon her. No one else can. And so do we really expect and should we be surprised that she would say anything different from what she said?

Now, last point, Dana, and that's this. Of course, the other side will say, you see, we told you so. What did she say? Everyone's saying that Mr. Trump may have been involved, but she tells you he did nothing wrong. She tells you he said nothing wrong, that he's a gentleman.

What do -- what else do we need? My answer to that question, Dana, is we need an awful lot other than her word for everyone to be satisfied that the truth is the truth is the truth.

BASH: Well said.

Back here with the panel, I want to play something that the sister in law of Virginia Giuffre said. Now, she was a victim of Jeffrey Epstein, and she took her own life earlier this year. She was talking specifically. The sister-in-law was talking specifically about Ghislaine Maxwell.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LANETTE WILSON, SISTER-IN-LAW OF VIRGINIA GIUFFRE: This wasn't someone who was a minor player. This was someone who was an organizer in this sex trafficking ring. She was alongside Jeffrey Epstein. And as Virginia said, she was most of the time worse than him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Shan?

WU: Well, that really goes to the point of why are you giving her a chance now to basically back away from it, and she's really just auditioning for the P.R. tour of if she is pardoned or sentence commuted, that these are the reasons why Trump can say, oh, I kind of believe her. She was the scapegoat for this.

But the evidence was completely against her. And her value. If there is any value for what she might disclose now about what happened back then is totally undermined. I mean, she can't be honest about what she was convicted of. There's no point here.

I'm just right to appeal the case. Sure, let her do that. But if you're trying to interview her as a cooperating witness, this is not the way to start.

BASH: No, it's a -- it's a political witness. Not a witness for a court of law. And, again, they want this these quotes, these audio sound bites of her not only exonerating President Trump, but Praising president Trump as Joey Jackson was just talking about to be pushed out into the conservative media and just general media bloodstream.

THOMPSON: Yeah, she has no memory of a lot of things. But she does remember that Donald Trump was always a gentleman. And I'd also say that, you know, she talked in the interview that she felt that her own prosecution was politicized, which was under Trump 1.0, by the way. Because she said there was a mob mentality. Well, who sic the mob on them? It was the right wing. It was not just

Trump, but all of his allies that if you want to believe that this prosecution was politicized, it's the exact same people that they're trying to convince now that there's nothing to this.

HINOJOSA: Well, and, also, it's the funny thing here is that the Justice Departments whole reasoning by -- to interview her and the whole reason why Todd Blanch wanted to sit down with her in the first place is to get new information on potentially any information on other people that they could potentially prosecute.

[16:40:06]

That information should have come out at some point back whenever she was prosecuted. Not now. Todd Blanch knew that. I can't name one thing that I have heard from the coverage so far that has come out that would potentially implicate anybody else, any of his associates, and that would have furthered this case even more, or that prosecutors or evidence that prosecutors missed back in the day when Epstein was prosecuted.

So, again, this emphasizes the political nature in this, and actually that Todd Blanche and Pam Bondi were wrong. There wasn't anything new that came of this that would advance this case further. It is all to a please the MAGA base.

TODD: Well, but wait a minute. Democrats are demanding that all of a sudden, Pam Bondi do everything in her power to release more information. And so she's got to do what she can do. And one of the things she can do --

HINOJOSA: MAGA is doing, that's what she --

TODD: House Democrats have tried to attach -- have tried to attach bills to, to subpoena and cause more votes on this on every bill unrelated. I mean, this is the current pet project of the House Democrats.

HINOJOSA: This is the pet project of the MAGA base.

TODD: And the House Democrats.

HINOJOSA: And what's happening with the House Democrats is that Pam Bondi said that she was going to release it, and all of a sudden, when we find out that Donald Trump is in the Epstein files, all of a sudden, the Justice Department cannot release the files. This is just -- shows you that the Justice Department is there to be the president's lawyer, not there to actually see justice.

TODD: Wait a minute, wait a minute --

HINOJOSA: This is a constant theme of the current Justice Department. They can -- they continue to act political in every turn.

TODD: The Department of Justice has a history of being the president's lawyer. Eric Holder said he was a Barack Obama's wingman. RFK was -- BASH: Standy by. Stand by.

TODD: -- by his brother.

BASH: Stand by. I want to go back to Katelyn Polantz.

Katelyn, one of the things that has come up recently is so-called birthday book for Jeffrey Epstein, that Maxwell was reported by "The Wall Street Journal" to have organized. Was she asked about that?

POLANTZ: She was indeed. She remembers the book the 50th anniversary book. But Todd Blanche, the deputy attorney general, asks her about the report in "The Wall Street Journal" of whether Donald Trump was asked to submit a letter or had submitted a letter for this birthday book. Todd Blanche does mention in this interview with Ghislaine Maxwell last month that the journal story mentions a picture of a naked woman, or something like that. That's how Blanche phrases it when he's asking about what Trump was alleged to have submitted.

And she says she doesn't remember. She remembers the book. She remembers it being leatherbound. She remembers it being big on heavy stock paper was what was printed there and not about any specifics regarding what -- who was sent, sending things in, and whether Trump sent anything in himself. Trump has denied writing that note that "The Wall Street Journal" has reported on. I should say that there is a lawsuit over that now in existence in the court system.

But one of these moments where Ghislaine Maxwell just doesn't remember.

Dana, here's a little bit more of how Ghislaine Maxwell distances herself from the memory of Epstein and Epstein in his behavior.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

MAXWELL: I think -- I just want to say, for the record, that I do believe that Epstein did a lot of -- not all, but some of what he's accused of. And I'm not here to defend him in any respect whatsoever. I don't want to and I don't think he requires nor deserves any type of protection or for me in any way to sugarcoat what he did or didn't do.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

POLANTZ: Dana, that's Ghislaine Maxwell, convicted of sex trafficking of minors, a conspiracy and that she says in this interview, though, that she did not participate in that activity with underage girls.

BASH: Right. Which she says, and those who are victims of Epstein or the family members of at least one Virginia Giuffre, who took her own life, says that Virginia Giuffre told them that she very much did.

Thank you so much. Don't go anywhere. Katelyn, stand by.

Shan Wu, thank you so much for coming in. Everyone at home, we have a lot more to come.

We're going to sneak in a quick break. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:48:45]

BASH: Welcome back to THE ARENA.

We have been talking about the transcripts and the audio clips of the interview that the deputy attorney general, Todd Blanche, did with Ghislaine Maxwell starting on July 24th, just about three weeks ago, almost four weeks ago. And that was done in prison. The fact that the DOJ released that late on a Friday afternoon in August is interesting.

Also interesting when it comes to timing is this morning, there was a raid, not just on the home, but also the office of President Trump's former national security advisor, John Bolton. They were there for hours and hours and hours. And what CNN is told is that they were looking for documents related to alleged classified information having to do with a book that he wrote, "The Room Where It Happened".

We're going to talk about that for a minute with our panel. And Olivia Troye is back with us.

Olivia, did you work with Bolton? I can't remember in the White House.

TROYE: I did, yes.

BASH: OK.

TROYE: Every year.

BASH: So, having that as context and knowing that now you are not fond of your former boss, Donald Trump.

[16:50:02]

I think that's probably a mild way to put it.

TROYE: That's kind.

BASH: What do you make of what we saw this morning? I mean, he had to get -- the prosecutors had to get a warrant from a judge in order to go into Bolton's house and to his office. So perhaps there's a kernel of something there.

But we also do know that in Trump one, Bolton asked the Trump White House for approval to use whatever he used in the book. Career officials, of which you were one, said, yes, you can. I'm not saying you approved it, but yes, you can use it. And then it was the political figures in that White House that got very upset that that was approved. They started a investigation and it was stopped during the Biden administration.

Now, obviously, it's very much on again.

TROYE: Yeah. Look, I was horrified by the news this morning. What I thought was a sort of distraction from the obscene stuff. I think they're willing to do anything they can to take away from this story. But I do think, you know, I think the important people for, for thing, for people to understand is the fact that Bolton did submit his book for pre-publication. Thats what we do when we have a national security clearance.

It also, I just want to be clear, doesn't mean that the information he's submitting is necessarily classified, so to speak. It's sort of a process that you do when you're going to release something publicly. And so, the person that was sitting at the top of that did go through it, and she followed a rigorous process.

We should also maybe at some point, talk about the fact of what happened during that process with her and the fact that the politicals questioned her for a very long time without actually what I understand to be attorney representation in terms of the kind of dynamic that happens there. And so, I think that's just classic of what I saw in the Trump administration during Trump 1.0 with political bullying. The actual process of integrity that happens in a situation like this. And so, I think that is what is concerning, is watching how this is playing out. Now, now that we have Kash Patel at the head of the FBI.

THOMPSON: Also -- well, I was going to say, just perhaps just as important, it actually doesn't say that anything he put in the book is untrue. And the book was a very unflinchingly negative portrayal of Donald Trump in the Oval Office. I'd also -- it reminds me of an anecdote from my colleague Alex Eisenstadts book from "Axios" about Donald Trump, where he sometimes would joke, oh, don't worry, we're not going to do revenge. He sort of do a wink and a nod, and some of these -- some of these prosecutions and raids are clearly politically motivated.

BASH: Brad?

TODD: Well, first of all, I agree with John Bolton on almost every foreign policy question, and I always have. That's anybody that's watched me commentate on these things knows that.

Secondly, I don't think it's good form to write a book trashing your boss. When you take a job in the executive branch or on the Hill, you don't trash your boss, period. You either take the job and do it, serve the boss or you don't.

And so, but third, he did get he did follow the process to be to get his information cleared. But I don't put a distinction on career versus political. The political people are not less qualified than the career people. The career people work for the political people because the political people work for the public.

Now, that being said --

BASH: It's more about protocol the way traditionally is done.

TODD: But again, not the political process gets to upend the protocol when voters decide they want a radical change, they get to change it. HINOJOSA: Yes, except in law enforcement matters and in law

enforcement investigations. That makes sense at commerce, at any other agency. But when you're talking about an ongoing investigation, an FBI search that we're seeing right now on camera, all of those things should be conducted, and should be career professionals.

BASH: I'm sorry, I'm just going to jump in because we have another quote that I want to give. Going back to the Ghislaine Maxwell transcript. And this is not about Donald Trump. This is about former President Bill Clinton. And it is specifically whether he ever visited Jeffrey Epstein's infamous island.

And here's what Maxwell says he never, absolutely never went. And I can be sure of that, because there's no way he would have gone. I don't believe there's any way he would have gone to the island. It -- had I not been there, because I don't believe he had an independent friendship, if you will, with Epstein.

This is this is big in conspiracy land because so much of the focus among conservatives has been -- well, what about Bill Clinton?

THOMPSON: Well, they're going to say I mean, they're going to say, well, we believe we some conservatives are going to say we believe Maxwell when it comes to what she's saying about Donald Trump, but not going to believe what she's saying about Bill Clinton. I think it speaks to the fact that a lot of her remarks do seem designed for the audience of one in the oval office that could give her a potential pardon.

TODD: That sounds to me like she doesn't --

BASH: This doesn't do that. I mean, she's exonerating Bill Clinton, and --

TODD: She's not exonerating him. She's saying that Bill Clinton's relationship was with her and not with Epstein.

BASH: But she's also saying he didn't go to the island.

TODD: She's saying that he didn't have relationship independent of her. Thats what's going to be the news of this item.

[16:55:02]

BASH: Okay. What do you think?

HINOJOSA: I'm not -- I'm not sure about that. I agree with you. I think it is very odd that, you know, I think it's interesting that she ended up saying this. I think what's also interesting about this is just that, again, going back to the fact that, like, we're not getting anything new from this transcript in terms of the investigation, I think is critical. And I mean, at the end of the day, she is playing for one audience generally.

But I do think that it's -- you know, and we'll see what else is in this transcript is its clear to me that she accomplished what she needed to accomplish with this interview.

BASH: All right, everybody, stand by. I want to thank Katelyn Polantz, who has been doing tremendous work, and Joey Jackson, who always does as well for being with us this hour.

We'll be right back. Don't go anywhere.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BASH: Thank you all for being here. To my panel.

Phil Mattingly on this August Friday evening, we gift you a giant ton of breaking news. You're welcome.