Return to Transcripts main page

CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt

New: House Oversight Committee Receives Epstein Birthday Book Containing Letter & Drawing With Trump's Name; DHS Starts New Immigration Operation In Chicago; Senator Bernie Sanders Campaigns With Zohran Mamdani In NYC, Attacks Democrats Who Haven't Endorsed Him. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired September 08, 2025 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:00]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Stacked 50 feet, then. Okay then. Look here. Things start going wrong.

As you can see, there's one goes and then the cascade mugs just dropping. Seventeen of the 31, though, they managed to make it safely to the table, fell short of the record.

Struempfel is not crying, though, over his spilled beer. He's vowing to try and break the record next year. I love that, I love seeing his name.

DANNY FREEMAN, CNN HOST: Yeah, Struempfel.

KEILAR: Yeah.

FREEMAN: He'll win next year, I think. I have a good feeling.

KEILAR: Oh, that looks great. Delicious.

All right. THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT starts right now.

(MUSIC)

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Hi, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. Welcome to THE ARENA. It's wonderful to have you with us on this Monday.

As we come on the air, there is breaking news here in Washington. Just moments ago, the House Oversight Committee received its first batch of documents from the estate of Jeffrey Epstein. So, what's in it? Well, they have the so-called birthday book and Democrats on the committee are releasing a page of that book that shows the name, the signed name of the president of the United States, Donald Trump.

Here it is. It features an outline of a woman's body. Theres a short message. Should we read -- should we read the message?

Voiceover: There must be more than life to having everything. Yes, there is, Donald says. I won't tell you what it is. Jeffrey, nor will I, since I also know what it is.

Donald: We have certain things in common, Jeffrey. Jeffrey says: Yes, we do. Come to think of it.

Donald: Enigmas never age. Have you noticed that? Jeffrey: As a matter of fact, it was clear to me the last time I saw you:

Donald: A pal is a wonderful thing. Happy birthday and may every day be another wonderful secret. Signed, Donald J. Trump.

Now, the president has repeatedly denied ever writing this letter. Any of those words. He has denied that it existed at all.

He has sued "The Wall Street Journal", which first reported on the existence of this birthday book.

Let's get off the sidelines and head into THE ARENA for another day here in Washington. Our panel will be here to weigh in, but we're going to start with CNN's Manu Raju, who is at the Capitol. And CNN's Kristen Holmes outside the White House.

Manu, first to you, this, of course, coming off Capitol Hill, how did we get here? What are you hearing?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, this is all part of that house oversight committee. Investigation into all of this. A subpoena that was issued last month by this committee to the Epstein estate, asking for a wide range of documents. This is the first batch of documents that have come over to this committee. We still don't know all of the contents of these documents that were provided to the committee this afternoon. That document, released by Democrats on the committee, we don't -- we have not seen the rest of the contents here.

But the Republicans did indicate there is other potentially interesting information that is all part of this as well, including is information related to that plea deal that was reached with Jeffrey Epstein back in 2007, 2008. That time frame that late -- that plea deal later criticized as being too lenient. But in addition to that, it also includes some of his contacts. It says, according to the statement from this, from the Republicans on this committee, it says entries from -- they got entries from Epstein's address in content books from January 1st, 1990 through August 10th, 2019, as well as information about Epstein's known bank account.

So, we'll see where that leads the investigation the committee is now leading. Now, there's also that separate legislative effort to try to force a vote in the full house to compel the release of all the Jeffrey Epstein documents. That is, of course, been opposed furiously by President Trump, as well as Speaker Mike Johnson.

Right now, that effort to force a vote is still two Republican signatures short to circumvent the Republican leadership. To use this procedure successfully, they need 218 supporters in the United States House. Right now, they need -- that means they need six to sign on. Just four have backed that effort that's being led by Republican Thomas Massie and Democrat Ro Khanna.

But if that does not succeed, this separate investigative effort is still moving ahead here, as Republicans are indicating that they will continue to work in a bipartisan manner to get more documents.

But again, Kasie, we'll see the other contents that are revealed here if and when the committee decides to release that information publicly -- Kasie.

HUNT: Yeah. Well, and of course, worth noting that the White House has said that signing on to that discharge petition would amount to a hostile act.

And that brings us to Kristen Holmes. Kristen, how is the White House responding to this? I mean, considering that the president has denied that this existed at all, says he never did this.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. So, a couple things to bring up. You mentioned the suing of "The Wall Street Journal". They also sued the parent company of "The Wall Street Journal", which is News Corp, that plays into their response.

The other thing to point out is how President Trump responded. Yes. He said that he never drew a picture in his life, that this wasn't him, that he had -- that this didn't exist. But at one point, he also said someone else could have written this letter and then put my name on it.

[16:05:01]

That is something that happens, and appears that is where the White House is responding on this.

So, this is what we saw from Taylor Budowich. He is the deputy chief of staff for communications. He basically posted a picture of several of Donald Trump's various signatures, and he posts: Time for News Corp to open that checkbook. It's not his signature, defamation.

And then again, you see all those various signatures here. We've also started to see a lot of conservative media pick up on this, posting out that that is not Donald Trump's actual signature.

Again, this does seem in line with what President Trump said at one point, saying that maybe somebody took his name or put his name on something that he didn't write. But clearly, they are not backing down. Even with the release of this letter, which they at one point said never existed, never happened, and said they are doubling down.

HUNT: All right. Kristen Holmes, Manu Raju, thank you very much for that.

All right. Our panel is going to be here to discuss what this all means.

CNN political commentator Jonah Goldberg; CNN chief political analyst, former Obama senior adviser David Axelrod; CNN political commentator Kate Bedingfield; and the former Republican governor of Wisconsin, Scott Walker.

Welcome to all of you. Thank you very much for being here. Where to start today?

DAVID AXELROD, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, let's start with that. You put that on blue paper. I thought that was a nice touch.

HUNT: Well, this is just where they put all of my elements on a daily basis. But yes --

AXELROD: It seems appropriate. Yeah.

HUNT: David Axelrod, why don't -- why don't I start with you? Because clearly, we're getting already a taste of what the White House strategy is going to be to push back on the contents here, that the oversight committee is releasing. They're just going to flat out say, well, wasn't the president, right?

I'm interested in your thoughts on, you know, this is a situation where the president's base really has wanted something for a long time --

AXELROD: Yeah.

HUNT: And it's really about the idea that there are powerful people that are treated differently in the world than people that don't have power, and that there's a cover up to protect those powerful people. How does this play into that?

AXELROD: You know, there are a lot of conspiracy theories that are kind of crazy. This conspiracy theory seems pretty logical to me. Sensible. I understand why there's this interest.

You know, one thing about this is, A, I presume, someone who is expert can look at signatures and make these judgments. But secondly, it's a weird thing. What year was this?

HUNT: You know, that's a great question. It was about 20 years ago.

AXELROD: Twenty years ago. So, 20 years ago, someone stuck this fraudulent piece in Jeffrey Epstein's birthday book? That seems like a weird thing. Someone who said, you know what? I think Donald Trump might be president someday. Let's just stick this in Jeffrey Epstein's birthday book.

I also wondered, and you may know, you guys may know the answer to this. I don't know. Did -- did -- Ms. Maxwell did -- was she asked about this birthday book and this entry in the birthday book? It seems to me she would know something.

HUNT: Well, she was heavily involved, reportedly, in the creation of.

AXELROD: No, no, it was her book.

HUNT: Right. Yes.

Jonah --

JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah.

HUNT: What's your take?

GOLDBERG: So, first of all, maybe it's just a sign of how prurient my mind is. I thought the drawing was going to be a lot more interesting looking. Like when Donald Trump says he can -- he doesn't -- he doesn't draw and all that kind of stuff, like, that's -- that's not a -- that's -- it's not Da Vinci. Right?

(LAUGHTER)

GOLDBERG: And -- and I think -- it's a little --

AXELROD: Dude, move on because I don't want you to get into trouble.

GOLDBERG: I understand.

HUNT: I did ask to make sure that Kate was here, and I wanted another woman to talk to you about this, but --

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

HUNT: So I really appreciate making that decision right now.

KATE BEDINGFIELD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Men and women talking about this.

HUNT: But you --

GOLDBERG: Also, and the poem, you know, it may be that its translated from some Japanese haiku and it's much more impressive than the original language.

But, look -- I think Trump gets himself into trouble. Remember the phone call, which she said was like the perfect phone call with this thing with Zelenskyy? He paints himself into these rhetorical spaces where he's got no room to maneuver and then forces people to defend him on those grounds. I personally think he could have a much more human, normal explanation.

Again, I still don't believe we're going to discover some horrible, heinous crime that he was involved in. Say, yeah, I knew the guy. I got tired of his act. Thats what he said in the past.

HUNT: Yeah.

GOLDBERG: But instead, he locks himself into these positions that then become very easy to falsify. Like the book doesn't exist. The drawing doesn't exist. Were going to get a lot of spelunkers going into the archives about his old signatures and --

AXELROD: And drawings.

GOLDBERG: I suspect it's his signature. HUNT: So, let's look at his most recent comments about the drawing

specifically. We're, of course, waiting for him to say something or put out anything about what we're just learning from the oversight committee. But he did speak about it in July, when "The Wall Street Journal" first reported its existence. Let's watch that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't do drawings. I'm not a drawing person. I don't do drawings. Sometimes people say, would you draw a building and I'll draw four lines and a little roof, you know, for a charity. So, but -- but I'm not a drawing person.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: So is the question. Governor Walker, is this not a drawing persons version of a naked woman? I mean, like --

SCOTT WALKER (R), FORMER WISCONSIN GOVERNOR: I don't know. Although, you know, the interesting thing, thinking about this from being back home in Wisconsin yesterday, most people, I think, are less interested, not just in that, and the birthday book is they are about what else this committee is putting out there, because the other stuff we just heard about, it hasn't been fully released might be some tangible evidence.

I mean, I think this would be different. What was it, a week or so ago when you saw the panel of victims say they didn't attach anything to either President Trump or Bill Clinton, for that matter, the former president?

So, I think if there was a, you know, a smoking gun, it clearly would have come up in an interview like that. The smoking gun beyond Clinton or Trump, I think, is what potentially is in the rest of this information in front of the committee. And that should be discerning -- very concerning to anyone, whether a Republican or Democrat alike. I want to know what's in there.

HUNT: Yeah.

BEDINGFIELD: Well, and Trump's own reaction, I mean, calling it a hostile act to vote for releasing the information tells you that there are things in there he doesn't want people to see. I mean, whether it's evidence of criminal behavior or not, criminal -- criminality is actually not the bar here politically.

And I think, you know, I was talking to somebody this afternoon and he was making, I thought, a very salient point, which is, you know, if you if you took this and you removed Donald Trump's name and you showed this to the MAGA base, who believe that there are elites who have, you know, have been pedophiles, and you said, you know, this is evidence of that. They would say, yeah, it is. And let's get to the bottom of it and let's keep -- let's keep asking questions.

But -- so, now, we've got Donald Trump's name on it. So, what are they going to do. And we've seen a lot of them say that they're actually not willing to sweep this under the rug. What will be interesting to see is if enough Republicans are willing to sign the petition.

AXELROD: The -- what's interesting to me is I think that the hope of the committee is that they can put enough stuff out there that it satisfies the notion of transparency without having a confrontation with Trump about releasing all of the files. And I don't know that that's going to happen. This seems like a self-perpetuating story. And now, you've got the victims out there, and they've been very compelling.

This -- this is a story that they still don't have control of. And this isn't going to help.

HUNT: So one thing I do want to remind everyone of, just to take a little walk down memory lane, because this is an administration that came in the door saying that they were going to put all this information out there and it's all on tape, starting from the president himself. Let's just watch -- you know, what we heard right when they first came in for the second Trump administration.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

INTERVIEWER: Would you declassify the Epstein files?

TRUMP: Yeah, yeah, I would. I'd be inclined to do the Epstein. I'd have no problem with it.

J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Seriously, we need to release the Epstein list. That is an important thing.

INTERVIEWER: Why is the FBI protecting the greatest pederasts, the largest scale pederasts in human history.

KASH PATEL, FBI DIRECTOR: Simple, because of who's on that list. Put on your big boy pants and let us know who the pedophiles are.

PAM BONDI, ATTORNEY GENERAL: I think tomorrow, Jesse. Breaking news right now. You're going to see some Epstein information being released by my office.

It's sitting on my desk right now to review.

A truckload of evidence arrived. It's now in the possession of the FBI. It's a new day. It's a new administration, and everything's going to come out to the public.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: So that's the campaign, right? The presidential campaign, followed by the early months of the Trump administration. So, what did Donald Trump say just last week when those Epstein victims went to the microphones on Capitol Hill and said, we are not a hoax.

Here's what Donald Trump said just minutes after that press conference while he was sitting at the White House. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: This is a Democrat hoax that never ends.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: A Democrat hoax that never ends.

Jonah Goldberg, this is a classic Trump tactic. Is it going to work?

GOLDBERG: It's not working in the way a lot of other things that he calls hoaxes, the magic power of the word hoax is not applying to this too well insofar as there are some people who I think it's because they can foresee a world beyond the Trump years, they want to stay on this very monetizable, clickbaitable issue for the foreseeable future, and they're not letting go of it.

Frankly, I think that one of the things that gets lost in all of this, because I understand the stories of the victims are so terribly compelling and horrible and all of that, and I get that. And they deserve their justice, whatever measure of it they can get at this point. I want -- I want to follow the money. I mean, like, there's just a basic journalistic question of following the money is like, this guy got really rich and really weird ways.

And one guy gave him something like -- I want to get the number wrong, but directionally I'm right. It's like $130 million for tax advice. Really? Like what was your tax liability that you needed to spend that kind of money? How do you set up your weird neverland sex dungeon island with the business model that he had?

[16:15:04]

And that's something you can find out that doesn't risk exposing grand jury testimony, that doesn't risk sort of retraumatizing these women again, and it's not like the House isn't equipped to investigate that stuff.

HUNT: Governor Walker, is the money the reason why all these powerful people were in this orbit? Like, is that what pulled them in? Like what -- what is it about -- like, you know, I've spent a lot of years now in Washington covering powerful people, right? I've consistently underestimated what people will do for power. I still don't understand why it was that so many people wanted to be associated with this guy, or were willing to be.

WALKER: It's shocking. And again, it's not a partisan issue. It's one of those where money, power, sex, all those things really revolve around power. I mean, it's one form or another.

But I've said repeatedly on this show for months, the best thing I thought the administration could do is release everything possible. Lay it all out there and --

HUNT: What does it tell you that they won't?

WALKER: I don't know, I mean, I honestly don't know why they wouldn't. If I was in this situation, I would lay it out. And if there are some things that grand jury so you can't explain what that is and why and point the finger right there. I think there's just widespread confusion as to what exactly is in there.

AXELROD: Isn't it also true that the suspicions are compounded when the president sends his personal lawyer down there who's the deputy attorney general? He has these two days with Ghislaine Maxwell. She exonerates the president and two days later, she's transferred this heinous pedophile is transferred from a more secure prison to a prison camp.

HUNT: Club Fed, I think.

AXELROD: Where -- where people who are convicted of what she was convicted of never go. I mean, that just fuels those suspicions.

BEDINGFIELD: Yeah. We also have -- just quickly, we haven't discussed the fact that Mike Johnson threw out this theory two days ago, that Trump was actually an informant in this case, and that he would somehow be exonerated as someone who was trying to get to the bottom of what Epstein was doing, which is obviously yet another lie in conflict with the lies that Trump has told that his administration has told.

And it just should raise a whole heck of a lot of questions.

HUNT: Yeah, you know what? I'm glad you mentioned that. We do have that sound. Let's play. This is what Mike Johnson said. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: I mentioned that what -- what the attorneys for the victims have been very clear about. I'm just repeating what is common knowledge and has been out in the public for a long time. President Trump was never a hindrance to the Epstein investigation. He was trying to assist in that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: So that was actually, Kate, the walk back of the comments that he made two days ago.

BEDINGFIELD: But so -- you have Trump out there saying the whole thing is a hoax. You have Johnson saying, well, no, actually, he participated in a way that was beneficial. I mean, it's -- it's you can you can hardly keep track of the lies. And I just think that, again, I would go back to members of Congress, Republican members of Congress, who can do the right thing and put their name on this discharge petition. And we can make some of these documents public.

I guess we'll see. I don't know, another -- another day, another top of the show talking about Jeffrey Epstein with this new information coming out.

All right. We do have much more to get to today. Coming up, DHS starting a new immigration operation today in Chicago, as the White House puts another -- other blue cities on notice. Also this hour, what's next in the race for New York after a failed presidential push to get someone to drop out of the race.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDREW CUOMO, NYC MAYORAL CANDIDATE: Mamdani would be his dream as mayor, because then it wouldn't just be President Trump, it would be Mayor Trump.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:22:53]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We're waiting for a call from Chicago. W e'll fix Chicago.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: We'll fix Chicago.

President Trump apparently growing tired of waiting by the phone. Right now, we're following a major ramp up of immigration operations in some of the nation's bluest cities, with Chicago, of course, front and center.

The Department of Homeland Security announcing today what they're calling operation Midway Blitz. That's apparently the name for the ICE operation now underway in the nation's third largest city, that the president has been promising for weeks.

Today, we're getting some new insight into the president's playbook, with the White House aiming to mirror immigration enforcement actions that they took this summer in Los Angeles.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Los Angeles was a mess. If we didn't send our troops in, Gavin Newsom would have had a real problem. We sent our troops right in at the beginning and we killed it. And it was nasty, but we killed it immediately. Immediately.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: So just after those comments today from the president, the Supreme Court basically said, okay, the courts conservatives giving the green light to the administration to continue what critics describe as roving immigration patrols in southern California. Why the court do this? We don't know. The justices aren't explaining their reasoning for deciding what they decided, but it did prompt a pretty blistering dissent from Justice Sonia Sotomayor. She wrote this, quote, "We should not have to live in a country where

the government can seize anyone who looks Latino, speaks Spanish and appears to work a low wage job."

CNN's Priscilla Alvarez is live with us now with her latest reporting on this.

Priscilla, what do we know about this operation in Chicago and those private discussions that you've been reporting on that have been underway for weeks?

PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Kasie. What I've been told by officials is that there were ongoing discussions internally in the administration to target Democratic-led cities that limit their cooperation with federal immigration authorities. This includes, for example, Chicago, Boston, among other cities.

Now, publicly, of course, senior Trump officials have been criticizing these cities. But behind the scenes, that planning has been well underway, and they have been surging federal personnel to Chicago, for instance, where sources tell me that they expect a phased approach, a stepped-up approach to what they have been doing before.

[16:25:08]

So that means that there have been ongoing immigration arrests, both in Chicago and Boston, where an operation was announced this past weekend. But they are going to step that up, more federal presence in these cities. And the reason Los Angeles comes up so much is because something very similar happened there, where they had more federal agencies on the ground targeting undocumented immigrants, and then began those immigration protests where the administration deployed the National Guard to quell those protests, they said.

And that is something that they could see play out in cities like Chicago, and again, Boston. Now, the big question is, with the ongoing litigation, what does that actually look like? It would look very different than, for example, Washington, D.C., where the federal government has more authorities. But it is something that is being discussed behind the scenes. And they have charged the man, the homeland security official who was at the helm of the Los Angeles operation with what is going on in Chicago, which is telling, and how they are thinking about the way that this moves forward.

But of course, there has been pushback. And earlier, we heard from Illinois Senator Dick Durbin, who said, quote, these actions don't make us safe. So again, Kasie, this operation Midway Blitz that was announced today, that's going to be that stepped up immigration enforcement from what they've already been doing in the city of Chicago, which means more federal agencies and personnel on the ground there.

It's still early phases of this operation. So well see where it heads. But as it does progress, Los Angeles and what happened there is certainly top of mind.

HUNT: All right. Priscilla Alvarez for us, Priscilla, thanks so much for that reporting.

Our panel is here. We're joined by CNN legal analyst Elliot Williams as well.

And Elliot, it does seem like, you know, if you look at Priscilla's reporting and what else is going on here, that essentially. Well, I'm interested in your view of whether they're just trying to goad people into doing, you know, protesting on the streets, giving them an excuse to send in the National Guard because it does seem pretty clear that the administration was about to do something and then thought, well, actually, maybe were not on the right legal footing.

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: You know, I think it's fair. I mean, I -- far be it from me to speculate what the administrations goals are with respect to goading people. But between the social media posts and the rhetoric from the president, it does seem, you know, like an attempt to kind of trigger people. There was a post over the weekend of Donald Trump you know, parodying "Apocalypse Now", and I love the smell of deportations in the morning or whatever else, which can only serve to get under people's skin.

And I think there -- there it is. And I think, you know, there -- the president is quite skilled at that to be -- to be quite frank. And so, look, to be clear, the administration is allowed to ramp up immigration enforcement. The law is quite broad on this, and they have tremendous latitude.

But the social media posts seem to suggest that it's a little bit beyond simply getting people out of the country. It is a political aim being carried out here.

HUNT: Yeah. David Axelrod, you were in your hometown this weekend.

AXELROD: Yeah. Yeah.

(CROSSTALK)

HUNT: Was it -- was it like living in "Apocalypse Now"?

AXELROD: No, it was -- it was actually really wonderful. People all over the lakefront, down the river, and Donald Trump should know that because his hotel overlooks the riverwalk there. So, from the windows of Trump Tower, you can see that this city is a magnet for people because of what it has to offer.

We have crime problems. A lot of big cities do. We're not as -- they're not as bad as Memphis or St. Louis or Cleveland. But, you know, I'm sure that there'd be an interest in getting some help from the federal government. That doesn't feel like this is what this is.

And to your question, Elliott said, far, far be it from him to analyze their voting intentions. I saw -- when I saw the job numbers on Friday, I thought to myself, he's going to hit the crazy button real hard right now. And the next day, we get this -- we get this social media post. And of course, how can -- when it ends with Chicago about to find out

why it's called the Department of War, what else can you interpret it as other than a provocation? I think, absolutely, they are trying to foment problems to justify bringing in the National Guard. And that's not a -- that's not how you make a city safer.

HUNT: Governor Walker, I want to ask you about some of the new polling that's out on immigration, because, as David points out, right? Crime, immigration, two issues that were in Donald Trump's favor during the election helped him win the election most likely. Certainly, he ran ahead of Democrats on those issues.

But his current numbers, according to this, I believe this is an NBC News poll, show 57 percent of people approve of Trump's -- disapprove, excuse me, of his deportation strategy here, only 43 percent approve.

[16:30:05]

I mean that -- yes, still, 43 percent are cool with it. But that's not a great number. If you're heading into the midterm elections and you're looking at that real tight margin of swing voters, it seems like people are a little uncomfortable with this.

WALKER: Well, two things. One, he's still way ahead of Congress, and the Democrats in Congress, if you look at that. But more specifically on this issue, I think goes back to they need to tell the stories of why, not just what's happening, why this is happening.

I think in my home state, Wisconsin, about two weeks ago, two high school sweethearts were -- were hit and killed by a drunk driver who happens to be illegal alien.

You tell the stories about why people like that, why you need ICE in wisconsin, in Chicago and other places where you've got repeat criminal offenders who are committing these crimes that are putting people at risk, or in some cases, taking their lives. Make the case about getting those folks out. I think that's what people in Wisconsin, elsewhere, that's what they voted for. And the more attention it is on the criminal element that's being taken out, the better those poll numbers.

AXELROD: That's how they started. And I think there was support for that. You know, I worked in an administration where they made a focus -- they put a focus on, deporting immigrants who are here illegally, who committed serious crimes. I think people would support that.

It's just become a lot more indiscriminate because Stephen Miller, whomever set a quota and they want to meet the quota. So, now, it's become something much different. And I think that's what people are responding to because its disruptive to communities.

I would venture to say, Governor, that you're going to find -- you walk into restaurants or on farms or other places in Wisconsin. You might find some people who are undocumented here illegally who are performing functions that are important and helpful, paying taxes, not getting benefits because they're not qualified for it. And, you know, chasing these folks down in order to hit your quotas. I don't think people think that is a good expenditure of resources.

WALKER: Well, that's why I put the focus on going after those who've committed additional crimes --

AXELROD: Yeah.

WALKER: -- and upping that number, because we know in the last four years, we've seen millions of people come in, many who are committing those crimes.

AXELROD: Well, we should -- we should be clear that the incidence of crime committed by undocumented people is actually lower than the incidence of crime among the larger population. So -- the, you know, the citizen population. So I -- I mean, I take your point.

I don't -- I say this as a Chicagoan, I don't want anybody in town who's going to commit a violent crime.

I want everybody out who's going to commit a violent crime. But -- but this seems something -- let me just make one last point on this. Tom Homan came to Chicago before they even took office, and he spoke at a Republican rally -- a Republican fundraiser, which I thought was unusual for a guy who was taking this position.

And he said, your governor sucks -- I'm quoting him -- Your governor sucks, your mayor sucks, and we're going to put Chicago right at the top of the list -- I mean, there's a political element to this that is unescapable.

BEDINGFIELD: Can I just say quickly, I think that the immigration disapproval numbers, the most dangerous for Trump when taken in tandem with the wrong track number in that poll, which is like 67 percent of the country thinks that we're on the wrong track.

HUNT: Yeah.

BEDINGFIELD: And I think that when Trump -- when people feel like Trump is not addressing their concerns about the border in a way that they think is right, there's also a number that suggests that using the National Guard in this way is not appropriate. Combined with their sense that he's not taking on prices and taking on the economy in the way that he promised that to me when I was looking at this poll, that was the thing that seemed like the biggest red flashing light to me for Trump.

HUNT: Yeah.

Elliot Williams, quick last word.

WILLIAMS: You know, I think we're all and everybody ought to be in agreement -- in agreement that getting national security threats and violent threats out of the country is something we should all agree with. But the -- this frankly, this case out of Los Angeles today was about people who, you know, ICE has no reason to believe our national security or criminal threats. The whole case was about is it lawful for ICE to go to Home Depot and round people up based on the fact that they are number one, Latino, number two, speaking Spanish, number three, present at a Home Depot, and number four, the type of job they're looking for.

So yeah, all for it. And you know, to Governor Walker's point, he's absolutely right. The challenge is that there is no way that ICE is going to hit those kind of deportation targets simply by going after national security threats. If they wish to get 3,000 people a day, they're going to be more of the Home Depot sweeps and so on. That's a choice that ICE is making. They're allowed to do it.

But this is not just about crime and national security. And we ought to accept that fact and have the administration admit it, finally, once and for all.

HUNT: Fair enough.

All right, Elliot, thank you. Always love having you. See you soon.

The rest of our panel is going to stand by.

Coming up here, black ties and black eyes. The elite dinner party that almost turned into a scene from fight club. A cabinet secretary threatening to punch someone in the face.

But first, a less physical, political brawl. New signs emerge.

[16:35:00]

The president's move to reshape the New York mayoral race not exactly working out the way he was hoping it would.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR ERIC ADAMS (D), NEW YORK CITY: Andrew Cuomo is a snake and a liar. I am in this race, and I'm the only one that can beat Mamdani.

ANDREW CUOMO, NYC MAYORAL CANDIDATE: Desperate people say desperate things. I believe he may take a job with President Trump. He's an ally of President Trump. Trump basically kept Adams out of jail. I believe the Republicans, though overall, want Mamdani to win.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: President Trump's apparent attempt to shake up the New York city mayoral race might be backfiring?

[16:40:05]

Trump has called for two candidates to drop out to increase the chances of defeating Democratic candidate Zohran Mamdani. He's even reportedly been looking into jobs in the administration for Eric Adams and perhaps for the Republican as well.

On Thursday, the city board of board of electors will certify the ballot in November.

A lot of interesting stuff going on here with, the president wanting Andrew Cuomo apparently to be mayor of New York. Like, what is that about? Actually, I should give this to you, too.

But, Kate, go ahead first.

BEDINGFIELD: So one thing I think is interesting, as somebody who's worked on a lot of campaigns, you listen to Mamdani continually making arguments about what he would do as mayor that would help people.

And then you listen to Cuomo and Adams, and they are making -- they are making punditry. They are like auditioning to sit with us at this panel and talk on this at this desk and talk about the dynamics in the race. And that is not a persuasive argument to a voter, either of them.

Now, Cuomo -- Cuomo saying, you know, Adams is a Trump ally and tying him to Trump. I mean, okay, I guess there's -- there's some value in that. But mostly, these two guys are spending their time arguing about, you know, who's getting the upper hand in the -- in the rundown of the race.

(CROSSTALK)

AXELROD: It makes no sense for him to be arguing that Adams is a Trump ally when Trump is trying to get Adams out of the race to help him.

HUNT: I mean --

AXELROD: I mean, you know, this is one of the reasons why Andrew Cuomo failed in the primary.

I mean, he -- it is a very, very bad place for the establishment in New York to be -- to say we want you to vote for the disgraced former governor who we said should resign from that position to be mayor of New York, because we don't like, Mamdani. And it's like the whole thing reeks of deal making and old politics, which really is a good counterpoint. But I have to make one point about this that I love about the story.

The guy who apparently tried to broker the deal to get Adams out of the race was Steve Witkoff, who negotiated this. He got another negotiation that failed.

HUNT: Yeah.

AXELROD: It's unbelievable.

GOLDBERG: It does kind of remind me. I can't remember the name of the Republican, but it was when David Duke, was Democrat. When David Duke won a primary in Louisiana and his opponent was utterly corrupt.

And the bumper stickers went around saying, vote for the crook. It's important to keep David Edwards. It was Edwards. That's right. And like the fact that there's been some focus groups on this, I was

talking to someone who conducted some, like New Yorkers actually don't care that he's corrupt or allegedly corrupt, allegedly. They care that he's seen as a tool of Trump. That's what's poisonous to him.

And this, like, triple bank shot thing makes no sense. It makes me want to give a -- I grew up in New York City -- another hard look at Curtis Sliwa --

(LAUGHTER)

GOLDBERG: -- the scandal free Republican candidate.

AXELROD: Guardian Angel.

GOLDBERG: Right. Yeah.

HUNT: The other dynamic here, of course, is that so that you're looking at the candidates, right? It's a totally scrambled field. Two independents are on the Democrat Curtis Sliwa, who Jonah was just talking about. So, let's put up the faces of the Democrats who have yet to endorse the Democratic nominee for the New York candidate for mayor.

So, the governor, the two senators and the top Democratic leader in the House, of course, represents part of New York City. None of them have endorsed Zohran Mamdani.

So, guess who was campaigning with Zohran Mamdani over the weekend? One Bernie Sanders, who has, you know, some experience himself with being rejected by the Democratic establishment. Here is what Sanders said at that event with Mamdani. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): Find it hard to understand how the major Democratic leaders in New York state are not supporting the Democratic candidate. One might think that if a candidate starting at 2 percent in the polls gets 50,000 volunteers, creates enormous excitement, gets young people involved in the political process, gets nontraditional voters to vote, Democratic leaders would be jumping up and down. This is our guy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Classic Bernie there.

David Axelrod, there's one Barack Obama who's apparently been calling Zohran Mamdani on the phone from time to time. Bernie Sanders was basically describing something along those lines. And yet these Democrats are not embracing him.

AXELROD: Yeah, I think it's a mistake. I mean, I understand it. First of all, there's probably donor pressure from particularly in New York on this. And I'm sure that in part there -- there's a fear that he will become emblematic of the whole Democratic Party, but understand that he ran on the issue of affordability and on a kind of positive politics that got, as Bernie said, many, many young people in that city to involve themselves in the process.

[16:45:00]

What is the message that they are sending?

By the way, he carried Hakeem Jeffries' district two to one.

WALKER: Well, I also think it's a mistake for Republicans to put too much money on the idea that him being the new mayor is suddenly going to be the be-all, end-all this November, in large part because I think his ideas are horrible, but they're not going to go into effect for some time.

And so, this idea is this young, charismatic guy probably won't scare a ton of New Jersey and Virginia voters quite yet. It will take maybe a year or two when you see the policies enacted. Those are horrible things.

But Republicans, I think, should be cautious about putting too much money on the idea that he's going to be the poster child for what not to do, because it's not going to happen yet.

HUNT: Interesting perspective.

All right. Coming up next, we're breaking the first rule of fight club. We're going to talk about it. The secretary of the treasury at the same time as fight club. We'll explain.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:50:12]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Alexander.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Aaron Burr.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sir, can we agree that duels are dumb and immature?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure. But your man has to answer for his words, Burr.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: The most infamous duel in American history, immortalized in that hit musical Hamilton between Aaron Burr and the country's first treasury secretary, Alexander Hamilton.

Well, this past week at a Georgetown Club, the 79th treasury secretary, Scott Bessent, apparently came rather close to a sort of duel of his own. Bessent, according to sources, threatened to punch fellow Trump administration official Bill Pulte in the face during an expletive filled tirade, telling him to, quote, take the matter outside and saying that either Pulte gets the F out of here or I do.

The club's co-founder ultimately forced to break up the altercation.

Jonah Goldberg, some very exemplary behavior from the men running our country.

GOLDBERG: Well, this is exciting, you know, promotion for the upcoming White House lawn UFC fight, right? Look, I -- it's a spectacle, but I think that the -- one of the things that this is indicative of is that it's administration where you have a president who is incredibly susceptible to flattery, to people undermining other members, you know, like Laura Loomer can parachute in and get dozens of people fired, right?

And so, Bessent understands that. He's a good inside player. And when he finds out that Pulte is badmouthing him, allegedly, I believe it. He calls him out on it.

So, I mean, this -- this is what you get in an administration run this way.

HUNT: I was a little surprised that Scott Bessent, you know, I -- maybe I shouldn't have been because, you know, you remember there was some reporting. And look, both Elon Musk and Scott Bessent denied it.

But you remember when Elon Musk showed up in the oval office with a black eye? He said it was his kid's fault. There was reporting at the time that Elon Musk and Scott Bessent had actually gotten into it, I think, yeah, there it is.

And again, Elon Musk said his son X caused this injury. And you know, well take him at his word.

But, Governor Walker, this would be the second time that Bessent has been reportedly involved in something like this.

WALKER: In this case, I'm glad I wasn't in the room where it happened.

AXELROD: All right. Culture reference. Right?

WALKER: Yeah. I mean, who knows?

The reports of that -- I think the tensions are, though, in some cases, I actually think tensions are good if there's competing ideas, you've got one person really pushing for a major shift with some of the governors on the Federal Reserve and someone else who wants to keep -- Bessent wants to keep the markets more stable. I think you can do both of those.

But it is, like I said, I'm glad I wasn't in the room --

AXELROD: Although it does speak to the combustibility of this kind of weird coalition of people that he has around him. All I can think of is maybe this is going to send some message to all these recalcitrant trading partners that these negotiations can get tougher. I don't know. BEDINGFIELD: I mean, listen, I have asked this question before, but it just really makes me wonder, are men too emotional to lead? Are they too emotional? Are they too emotional to lead? I think that's a reasonable question to ask.

HUNT: I mean, it does seem like a reasonable question to ask. I mean --

BEDINGFIELD: Putting it out there.

HUNT: For sure.

You know, I -- Jonah Goldberg, does it say anything to you about like, yes, it's personal, right? But what are the stakes for like, for like, Scott Bessent and I think part of why he has a huge job now, he potentially wants to be the head of the Federal Reserve, right. And Bill Pulte is the person providing his agency is providing some of the information that they are using against Lisa Cook to -- her mortgage data is what they're hanging this, you know, fraud allegation on.

And that's coming from Pulte. Like what's going on there.

GOLDBERG: Yeah. Well, look, Pulte is a -- is a henchman for all of this kind of stuff. I think -- look, I think if I have to pick someone whose team -- I'm going to be on, it's on Bessent because I think what he actually wants to do is keep, as you say, the markets a little more stable and reassured.

But when stories come out that the secretary of the treasury is poised to become a helicopter of fists, it's -- it doesn't reassure a lot of people about the even keel of the financial, the people in charge of the financial system.

AXELROD: But both these but both these guys are valuable to Trump and his view. The guy who keeps the markets calm and the guy who digs up dirt that he can use against his political enemies. So, he wants to keep them both.

GOLDBERG: For sure. Yeah.

BEDINGFIELD: Yeah, I think Jonah's initial point was exactly right. Bessent is a good inside player. He knows that currency with the president is everything, and he's not going to let somebody bad mouth him to Donald Trump.

GOLDBERG: He's also in charge of the currency.

BEDINGFIELD: And he's and he's in charge of the currency. I got to workshop that one. I could have done better.

HUNT: All right, on that note, we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:59:35]

HUNT: All right. Guys, thanks for being here today. Really appreciate it.

Where are you watching your game tonight?

AXELROD: In the hotel here in Washington. Hopefully, with a lot of pillows around the door so people won't hear me scream throughout the game.

WALKER: How would you like yesterday?

AXELROD: Go Bears.

WALKER: Packers are pretty good yesterday.

AXELROD: Yeah.

HUNT: No. We're -- my Eagles are on a collision course with your packers.

WALKER: I'll be at that game. Packers --

HUNT: I think -- are you really?

All right. Well, guys thank you again for being here.

And again, if you guys missed any of today's show back at home, you can always catch up by listening to THE ARENA's podcast.

Just scan the QR code below. Follow along wherever you get your podcasts. Don't forget, you can also follow our show on X and Instagram @TheArenaCNN.

My fellow Eagles fan, Jake Tapper -- he's really the OG CNN Eagles fan, let's be real -- standing by for THE LEAD. E-A-G-L-E-S, Eagles was a great game.