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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt

Trump: "There Will Be Others" After Comey Indictment; Sources: Comey False Statement Charge In Indictment Appears To Center On 2016 Hillary Clinton Email Probe; Comey Indictment: How Will Democrats Respond? Aired 4-5p ET

Aired September 26, 2025 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: We have a lot to think about this weekend as we make healthy choices and either stay on the right track or completely turn it around.

[16:00:06]

Thank you for being with us.

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We're going to turn it around.

KEILAR: Yeah. What are you going to -- three yogurts a day can do that, Jess?

DEAN: I don't know if I can do three yogurts, but maybe we'll start with, I eat yogurt sometimes. Maybe I'll just make it daily. That'll be -- that's a -- that's a --

KEILAR: I can be a daily yogurt.

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KEILAR: And a walk.

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In the meantime, THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT starts right now.

(MUSIC)

HUNT: Hi, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. Welcome to THE ARENA. Happy Friday. We made it to the end of the week.

James Comey, the first named enemy of the president of the United States, to be indicted. Although we're learning from the president today that the first extraordinary use of the American Department of Justice for this purpose, it won't be the last time, according to Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There's -- I mean, they're corrupt. These were corrupt, radical left Democrats because Comey essentially was a -- he was worse than a Democrat. I would say the Democrats are better than Comey. But no, they'll be others. And so, I -- so I would I hope, frankly, I hope there are others because you can't let this happen to a country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Of course, the man that the president is starting with, the former director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Well, he's not doing as one normally does in the face of an indictment, i.e. keeping quiet, fighting with lawyers only. No, Comey is already challenging the president directly in public.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES COMEY, FORMER FBI DIRECTOR: My family and I have known for years that there are costs to standing up to Donald Trump, but we couldn't imagine ourselves living any other way. We will not live on our knees, and you shouldn't either. My heart is broken for the Department of Justice, but I have great confidence in the federal judicial system, and I'm innocent. So, let's have a trial.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: That was last night. And now, first here on THE ARENA, here on CNN. We can give you a little insight into how James Comey was thinking and feeling about Donald Trump. Months before this indictment. In an exclusive interview for a forthcoming CNN original series, the interview, conducted on May 22nd of 2025, this year, Comey reflected on his firing and his relationship with President Trump. It's pretty remarkable.

Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COMEY: Yeah, I'm still considered a villain in MAGA world. Hope I said that correctly. Although I've offended enough people in MAGA world, that doesn't matter at this point.

I'm not sure exactly why that is. I often joke I'm the relationship that Trump can't get over, wakes up in the middle of the night thinking about me and how I'm living my best life.

I think it has some combination of -- I really have -- had a happy, productive life since then and that I spoke out about him. And that despite their absolute best efforts, they're never able to get me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Pretty remarkable in the context of what we are seeing right now.

Let's get off the sidelines and head into THE ARENA. My panel is here, CNN political analyst, national political reporter for "Axios", Alex Thompson; CNN crime and justice correspondent Katelyn Polantz; the former director of public affairs at the Justice Department, Xochitl Hinojosa is with us; and Republican strategist Shermichael Singleton.

Thank you all for being here.

Katelyn Polantz, a remarkable -- well, let's just say that the situation Comey was facing when he gave that interview quite different than the one that he is facing today, and for him to essentially say, I've been living rent free in Donald Trump's head, they haven't gotten me yet. It really hits different now, considering what Donald Trump is doing with the system. I also know you have some new reporting about what this indictment is actually about.

Walk us through it.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Kasie, this actually. Shifts our understanding in some ways of what is going to be put on display in the courtroom, because the prosecutors are going to have to put out a lot of information, not just about Comey's testimony, but also about what this leak -- alleged leak that he authorized is about what we're filling in is who he allegedly passed the information through, and who it was about. It's Hillary Clinton, not Donald Trump, or at least it's about Hillary Clinton, the investigation around her in 2016.

So, this was a team effort in looking really closely at court documents, talking to sources, the indictment says James Comey knew he, in fact, had authorized person three. We also now understand that to be his friend, a lawyer. It appears to be a man named Dan Richmond, who the FBI has said has been a liaison for Comey to the media in the past.

Richmond, serving as an anonymous source in news reports regarding an FBI investigation concerning Hillary Clinton.

[16:05:01]

HUNT: Right.

POLANTZ: So, there's a real possibility here that what we're hearing about is not what Trump wants to hear about in court over and over again. What Kash Patel even yesterday in the announcement said, was the Russiagate hoax, what we would be hearing about is the Clinton investigation. A different investigation, not the one around Donald Trump and his 2016 campaign.

Now, of course, those two things fit together a lot. Comey announcing the investigation and then Trump. So we don't exactly know how this will piece together, and we don't know exactly what the detail was that was leaked or details to the news reports that may come out as well. But this is filling in what we know in what -- it's really short indictment. It really doesn't explain that much. ALEX THOMPSON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, remember that in -- when Trump fired James Comey as the FBI director, he also used Hillary Clinton's investigation, his handling of it as the pretext for firing him.

POLANTZ: The second pretext, the first one he wanted to say, I'm unhappy. I'm under investigation --

THOMPSON: Yes.

POLANTZ: -- for the rest of investigation. And then he worked with Stephen Miller. They came up with a second version, and that was the Clinton -- you did -- you bungled the end of the Clinton investigation, announcing it publicly.

And then the final version --

THOMPSON: Exactly.

POLANTZ: -- was very, very short.

Rod Rosenstein backed up and said, yeah, Comey didn't do a good job with the Clinton investigation.

HUNT: Was that not, though, an attempt to make it seem more less political, basically, or like more fair, taking all sides.

THOMPSON: Yeah, that's why I said it was a pretext.

HUNT: Right.

THOMPSON: Like the real reason he fired James Comey, in the same reason why they're indicting, indicting him now is because Donald Trump.

And a lot of his people basically believe that James Comey sabotaged his presidency at the beginning by briefing him on the infamous dossier that by also testifying to Congress that he was looking essentially at that Trump had connections to Russia. They basically very deeply in many parts of the White House, basically believe that Trump lost out on two plus years of his first term because of James Comey. That's why he hasn't gotten over it. That is why, as James Comey alluded to, that he wakes up in the middle of the night thinking about James Comey.

HUNT: Xochitl Hinojosa, can -- you worked inside the Justice Department. Can you help me understand a little bit about -- I mean, in some ways, right, the same thing could be going on here. Katelyn's reporting now that this is related to him lying about leaking information around the Hillary Clinton email probe, that he used back when he fired James Comey. And a trial over this would involve days, months of headlines about Hillary Clinton, reminding Democrats of -- and we've got a lot of tape later on in the show that shows just how unhappy Democrats were with James Comey for various reasons.

How do you see this? XOCHITL HINOJOSA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: So, I don't think James

Comey is popular with anyone at this point. I think that people believe that the prosecution is retribution, and this is -- he's going after his enemies, and he made -- Donald Trump made that clear in a Truth Social over the weekend.

But not only will information come out about Hillary Clinton, I think it is interesting because if you are James Comey's attorney, longtime attorney, Fitzgerald, he is the one who is going to be helping James Comey. But he will likely bring talk about selective prosecution. And part of what I think will happen when this goes to trial is that they will likely call the former U.S. attorney to the stand who quit. They will likely try to call former career prosecutors to the stand.

They will -- there is -- there are reports that there was a declination memo in this matter. They might call those people to the stand. They are going to -- there will be -- they will try to uncover and tell a story that this was Donald Trump trying to prosecute his enemy. And they are going -- this will happen through discovery. They will be asking for emails. There will be a lot of paper around this.

And so right now, if you are the Trump Justice Department, you just want Donald Trump to stop talking about this. This is not hurting -- this is not helping their case. And this is going to be an issue in the trial.

HUNT: Katelyn Polantz, what is your reporting or what context would you give us in terms of -- and we know that the team, you and the team here have reported that there were reservations right among the prosecution team working on this. Of course, Pam Bondi, the attorney general.

Is this a last-minute switch for them as they're trying to give Donald Trump what he wants here, going, you know, making this charge on something that was unexpected related to Hillary Clinton investigation not related to Russia or -- I mean, what is your reporting around that question?

POLANTZ: Well, at the end of the day, this actually is a smaller case than what they wanted. There was another -- what the Justice Department was an alleged false statement to congress that also involved the Clinton investigation, that the grand jury did not approve.

[16:10:03]

So that is already a truncated version that the prosecutors are going to have to bring into court. And there are very likely to be things cut out of the case, as well as things like the declination discussion or letter or memo, whatever it may be, from those prosecutors in Virginia becoming part of this, that are -- it's all going to be put on display. And so, I do think, though, to take a beat here, we can have all kinds of discussions about how much concern was in the justice department. That will be something that will be of use to the defense. But at the end of the day, 14 grand jurors, we know this on the

record, looked at this and approved this indictment. There was probable cause for false statements and for an obstruction case related to this testimony. And so now, it's up to the judge to road test it and looked at it, see whether he's going to want to throw it out, cut it back, you never know, and it would then ultimately be up to a jury.

And both Comey and Trump are people who know how to harness a camera to their advantage. Comey essentially smirking in his video last night, saying, let's go to have a trial. And then now, also in the new CNN original series footage, saying that he's living his best life.

HUNT: Yeah, let's -- I want to play that -- play that again. So, this is something first here on CNN. I want to watch it a little bit more closely. And again, the timing is important here because its Jim Comey speaking for this CNN original series. He's sitting for the interview in May of 2025. So, Donald Trump is president. But obviously, this indictment has just come down ahead of the expiration of the statute of limitations on September 30th.

Let's watch it again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COMEY: Yeah, I'm still considered a villain in MAGA world, but I hope I said that correctly. Although I've offended enough people in MAGA world, it doesn't matter at this point. I'm not sure exactly why that is. I often joke I'm the relationship that Trump can't get over, wakes up in the middle of the night thinking about me and how I'm living my best life.

I think it has some combination of I really have had a happy, productive life since then and that I spoke out about him and that despite their absolute best efforts, there, never able to get me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Almost a dare. They were never able to get me. And I think we've also all been living this media universe long enough to know its MAGA, right? And to that point, Shermichael Singleton.

I mean, this is not the first time that Jim Comey has stepped into you know, provocative space, where he posted 8647 from the beach on his Instagram. Now, of course, there was so much debate about what that actually means at the time with people having worked in restaurants, that it has nothing to do with violence, although there are plenty of people who understood this to be a threatening message from Jim Comey.

What are the politics here for the president, who honestly is facing -- you know, he doesn't have the highest approval ratings he's ever had, right?

SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Sure, he doesn't have to run again either. So, I don't know if that that really matters if I'm going to be honest with you. And from the vantage point of many conservatives, they're looking at this and they're thinking, this is exactly what we wanted, particularly those who supported the president. They look at New York and many conservatives that I have spoken with, those who work for the president and many who are activists who engage with voters to get them to vote for Republicans have stated, look at Letitia James and some of her comments when she was running about wanting to go after the president, she ultimately did that. Look at the politicization behind Alvin Bragg case.

Many conservatives will point to those things and say those were undue, unfair cases against the president. It cost him a lot of money. They did not want him to win the election, and he won anyway. And we won the Senate and we maintain the House.

So, it's now our turn to show the left, the other side. This is me speaking. This is some of the things that I've heard. It's now our turn to show them what you've done to us was unfair. Now, we're going to go after you.

Now, whether or not this is a palatable message for independent voters, I think it depends, Kasie.

HUNT: I mean, you're taking it further than anyone has ever taken.

SINGLETON: Kasie, I understand --

HUNT: The idea that, you know, I mean, there is likely to be a Democratic president at some point.

SINGLETON: That's very possible.

HUNT: Right. And we have seen in our politics, this ratcheting up, right?

SINGLETON: Sure. Sure.

HUNT: Of the vitriol, of the tension, of the stakes.

SINGLETON: The pendulum always swings to the other side. I agree with you. But my point is, from the vantage point of many conservatives and I have spoken to a ton of them about this. I haven't found a single person that has suggested any level of disgust over these charges against Comey, and even my friends on the other side, my Democratic friends who may not like the president sort of putting his thumb on the scales of justice. There is no fanfare love for James Comey at all.

They may not like this, but many I've heard, oh, no, it's Comey. Oh, well --

(CROSSTALK)

HUNT: In the White House.

SINGLETON: -- because it's the White House.

HUNT: -- Comey and not indicting him. SINGLETON: I'll give you a prime example, culturally speaking. I don't

often watch "The View", but I did watch because I was curious to see what they were going to say about this.

[16:15:00]

And you had Joy Behar, of all people, saying, you know what? I agree with Trump for once on something. I don't like Comey, because if it wasn't for Comey, maybe it would be Hillary Clinton versus Donald Trump. Just making an example.

(CROSSTALK)

HUNT: We're not supposed to be -- we don't -- we don't like this guy. So, they should go to jail, right? That's not supposed to be America.

SINGLETON: But, Kasie, I agree with you, but you cannot take away the guttural reactions of everyday people, particularly conservatives, after what they feel the targeting of someone they love, that being Trump. And now the roles being reversed.

THOMPSON: It turns out that in Trump 2.0, you can take Trump both seriously and literally. He is actually going to do all the things that he talked about in the first term that he didn't get to do. And this reminds me, my colleague Alex Isenstadt reported earlier this year that behind the scenes during the campaign, Trump would say something along the lines of there will be no retribution, there will be no revenge. Wink, wink.

HUNT: Yeah. That's a great note to end on.

Katelyn Polantz, thank you. I love your -- you, Mr. Wink.

Everyone, she's over here winking. It's very good. Yes, you can.

All right. Coming up next here in THE ARENA, much more on the breaking news that it appears the FBI's Hillary Clinton email investigation is at the heart of the Comey indictment. We're going to take a deep dive.

And later, Anthony Scaramucci will enter THE ARENA with his insight into President Trump's relationship with Comey, how it's changed since this moment more than eight years ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Oh, and there's James. Will you please?

He's become more famous than me.

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Director Comey.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [16:20:56]

HUNT: All right. Welcome back.

We've got more breaking news in -- about the James Comey indictment.

Sources now tell CNN that the FBI's investigation of Hillary Clinton and her use of a private email server appears to be at the heart of the indictment, not the investigation into Russia's meddling in the 2016 election.

The indictment accuses Comey of lying under oath during congressional testimony on September 30th, 2020. Here is a key moment from that day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): On May 3rd, 2017, in this committee, Chairman Grassley asked you point blank, quote, "Have you ever been an anonymous source in news reports about matters relating to the Trump investigation or the Clinton investigation?" You responded under oath, quote, "Never". He then asked you, quote, "Have you ever authorized someone else at the FBI to be an anonymous source in news reports about the Trump investigation or the Clinton administration?" You responded again under oath, "No".

Now, as you know, Mr. McCabe, who works for you, has publicly and repeatedly stated that he leaked information to "The Wall Street Journal" and that you were directly aware of it and that you directly authorized it.

Now, what Mr. McCabe is saying and what you testified to this committee cannot both be true. One or the other is false. Who's telling the truth?

COMEY: I can only speak to my testimony. I stand by what -- the testimony you summarized that I gave in May of 2017.

CRUZ: So, your testimony is you've never authorized anyone to leak. And Mr. McCabe, if he says contrary, is not telling the truth, is that correct?

COMEY: Again, I'm not going to characterize Andy's testimony, but mine is the same today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: All right.

We are joined by former Trump attorney Bill Brennan and former federal prosecutor Berit Berger.

Thank you both very much for being here.

I also want to welcome our text chain. You guys may not be aware of this new feature. Several of our contributors are joining us to discuss. They'll be there mostly on mute, but feel free to reference them if you see something that really stands out to you there.

We've got Scott Jennings, Van Jones and Elie Honig. So, it's a great crew.

But let me start with you, Bill, here --

WILLIAM J. BRENNAN, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR DONALD TRUMP: It is a great crew.

HUNT: --of about what we're learning here. And this reporting from our team that this is really about. Apparently, this indictment is about him lying about leaks related to the Hillary Clinton investigation. What does that tell you?

Because obviously, what seems to have motivated President Trump to have such animosity towards James Comey was the Russia investigation.

BRENNAN: Yeah. Well, first of all, Kasie, thanks for having me on this distinguished panel. But if that's true, I mean, it's a big sea change from, you know, the 22 hours ago, it seems to take the air out of the balloon that it's Trump's revenge. I mean, it's a whole different fact pattern there. It doesn't, though, for Mr. Comey. Unfortunately, it changed the fact that, you know, he's charged with 1001, and they've alleged lying, of course, I can't say it enough.

The mere fact that he's been indicted doesn't mean anything. He's presumed innocent, but it does mean, though, you know, that the U.S. attorney's office, who could have charged by complaint and warrant to get it in under the statute, were able to get up to 25 grand jurors to get it through the first hurdle.

But I do think that the distinction would be if, in fact, the fact pattern leads to the Hillary Clinton email investigation, it does seem to diffuse the commentary we've heard over the better part of a day that, you know, it's the President Trump and it's lawfare and revenge.

HUNT: Berit Berger, what's your analysis?

BERIT BERGER, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: I don't agree. I think the revenge part was set forth pretty clear by President Trump in his social media posts.

[16:25:05]

He didn't specify, I want my federal prosecutors to go after James Comey because of this type of leak. He just said, I want them to go after him the same way. He said, I want them to go after Adam Schiff and Letitia Jones. He didn't specify what the crime was, and that's kind of the problem.

What Trump is doing in a backwards way from what prosecutors do in a normal time is he's choosing the defendant first without worrying about what the crime is. And that's not how law enforcement work. That's not what federal prosecutors used to do. They would find the crime and then figure out who the defendant is. So I don't agree that I think this takes sort of the revenge motive

off the table. I do think that this highlights one of the deficiencies in this indictment, which is that it's so bare bones. I mean, the point of an indictment is to give the defendant notice of what he's being charged with, why he's being charged with it, what the prosecution's theory is.

The fact that we don't even know what statements are being referenced in this, whether it's the Hillary Clinton, whether it's something else, that just shows why this indictment is really insufficient on its face. And the first thing that Jim Comey should do is make a motion for what's called a bill of particulars, which is something that would require the government to give him more notice and more information about the charges.

HUNT: Berit, let me stick with you for a second --

BRENNAN: You know --

HUNT: I'm sorry, Bill. Go ahead. You respond.

BRENNAN: You know, I agree with you that you know, you certainly don't put the individual, the defendant first and then search for a crime. You referenced General James Letitia James. She ran on a campaign, of I'm going to get Trump.

I don't know what I'm going to get him for, but I'll get him for something. And all you have to do is google or YouTube it. There's thousands of hits out there, but it's notice pleading. They had to -- they were up against a statute. They can certainly do a bill of particulars, excellent idea. I guess Mr. Fitzgerald will do that.

But you know, the charges did survive a grand jury. There are two of them. The obstruction charge is troubling because while the sentencing guidelines give some latitude, it's going to call for jail in a high profile public figure, the Department of Justice will ask for jail, but again, presumed innocent. Can't say it enough.

HUNT: Berit, we heard from Comey and directly --

BERGER: -- also Letitia James for that.

HUNT: Yeah. No. Fair enough.

We heard directly from Comey on camera last night and he said, I'm innocent. Let's go to trial. Would you advise him to be doing that?

I mean, it -- in many ways. It's a political move, no, for someone who -- it's not how I don't think you or I or anyone a normal person. We call them regular Americans sometimes would respond to something like this.

BERGER: I understand why he felt the need to do it. It's such a human reaction, right? To want to defend yourself, to want to say, I didn't do it. I'm innocent. I absolutely would not advise him to do it. I think any attorney worth

their salt would say, let's just fight this in the courts. Let's fight this with our papers. Because again, any statements that he makes, the prosecution can reference in their case.

Not that he's saying anything that's going to implicate him at this point, but it's just not a smart idea strategically. But I do understand sort of that human nature --

BRENNAN: I couldn't agree more. Absolutely agree with that.

HUNT: Well, Bill, do you think -- I mean, look, James Comey has -- we've talked about this angered all sides of the political spectrum with acts he has taken.

BRENNAN: True.

HUNT: I mean, in some in some ways, the way to most elevate his profile is this fight with Donald Trump.

BRENNAN: Well, I agree, Kasie, and he's certainly not camera shy. You know, we've seen him all over the news.

He violated either DOJ policy or at least a longstanding tradition of no bombshells 100 -- within 100 days of election when he came out with the were reopening the Hillary Clinton investigation. And what I find ironic about this particular indictment and the arguments that are being made about how weak and nuanced the language, is the bullet is when James Comey indicted Martha Stewart, the exact same arguments were made on Martha Stewart's behalf.

It was -- it was presumably a weak case. It was nuanced language. It's subjective interpretations. But back to your original question -- I mean, I'm sure Mr. Fitzgerald is seething that James Comey went out and made that statement. It's just -- it's so frustrating when you're the lawyer, but when you have a guy who's a former U.S. attorney, the former director of the FBI, you know, he's a guy that's used to calling the shots, and he just can't stay away from that hot mic.

HUNT: Yeah. For sure. All right, Berit Berger, Bill Brennan, very grateful to both of you. Thanks for being here today.

[16:30:00]

All right. Coming up next here in THE ARENA, President Trump says James Comey won't be the last on this revenge tour.

Plus, Democrats have long criticized Comey for reopening the Clinton email investigation just days before election day in 2016. And now, sources say it appears that email probe is at the heart of Comey's indictment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-MD): This is Exhibit A in the gross corruption of the Department of Justice and the justice system under the Trump administration.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COMEY: I'm still considered a villain in MAGA world.

[16:35:03]

Hope I said that correctly, although I've offended enough people in MAGA world, that doesn't matter. at this point. I'm not sure exactly why that is. I often joke I'm the relationship that Trump can't get over, wakes up in the middle of the night thinking about me and how I'm living my best life.

I think it has some combination of I really have had a happy, productive life since then and that I spoke out about him and that despite their absolute best efforts, they're never able -- never able to get me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Still seems to think they're not going to get him based on his claim of being innocent. That was James Comey speaking to our CNN original series team in May of this year for a forthcoming series right here on CNN.

Of course, President Trump fired James Comey 109 days into his first term. Or if you want to use another metric, Comey lasted nearly 11 Scaramuccis.

Former White House communications director in the Trump administration, Anthony Scaramucci, is in fact, here to discuss further.

Love to see you. Thank you so much for being here.

ANTHONY SCARAMUCCI, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Thank you.

HUNT: I want to talk to you about, Comey and Trump, and what it is that makes Donald Trump focus on certain people as his enemies. I mean, he has been fixated on Jim Comey, and yet he spends all kinds of time criticizing all kinds of people, right?

On his social media feed. But there are some, right, that really stand out. What is it about Jim Comey that has Donald Trump doing this?

SCARAMUCCI: Well, there's some superficial things, but I think the fundamental things have to do with the Russia situation. I was on the transition team in 2016 when James Comey and Clapper and Brennan came to Trump tower to talk about the Russian situation, the claims of collusion, but also Russian interference. And so, the president was always very, very sore about that. The more

superficial thing, you think this is silly, but I know it isn't silly is the height issue. Comey towers over him and I know it bothers him tremendously. So just know the president's personality.

But the last point, I think this is the most important point is he really does want to inflict pain on his enemies. Any person that was in his government that he thinks has done him wrong in some way, you could just hear his speech after Erika Kirk speech on Sunday. He wants to inflict pain, and even if you can't find something to prosecute James Comey on, he wants to prosecute him.

But I would just offer some advice, however gratuitous, to Director Comey. Take this thing very, very seriously. Patrick Fitzgerald is a very competent lawyer, but he's also a prosecutor. One of the things you learn in law school, Kasie, is you want to go -- you want to go gently. As a defense attorney, sometimes these prosecutors have a tendency to be bullying in a courtroom.

And I would just be careful because you have historical precedent, whether it's Oliver North or the situation that happened with Mike Flynn, where the claims seem flimsy, but convictions end up, you know, in weird ways, or even look at the Scooter Libby case as an example.

So, to me, you can posture, you can play politics here. But take the indictment very, very seriously. You'll likely win. You'll likely be acquitted. But don't take it easy. You know, even if you're making that presentation like you did last night I want him to assert his innocence, of course, but dig in here because you'll be better prepared than they will be because they have a flimsy case.

HUNT: I was going to say I was almost surprised that he didn't call Abbe Lowell right away, who seems to be defending almost everyone else who is challenging the Trump administration.

SACARAMUCCI: Well, he's got a long -- he's got a longstanding relationship with Patrick Fitzgerald. And Patrick Fitzgerald is an incredibly competent attorney and has handled a lot of cases like this. But I have found that criminal defense attorneys like Abbe have a tendency to do better.

Prosecutors that switch over, remember, they started with all the force and all the magnitude of the federal government on their side. And so they have sometimes abilities to flex in the courtroom. And when you're a defense attorney, you can't flex the way a prosecutor can.

So, again, I would just say take this seriously because it's one thing to hear the media. It's one thing to hear the Democratic senators pooh-pooh the case, and I accept all that. And I do think this is weaponization of the justice system, but this is now one man against the federal government that's been empowered by Donald Trump. It's a dangerous precedent. I don't like it at all.

The Republicans will claim that there was lawfare on the other side, and I understand that. But go look at those cases. [16:40:01]

There was meat to many of the cases that the Republicans are claiming lawfare to. There's way less meat here. So much so that one of the seasoned prosecutors said, I'm not bringing the case and had to leave the Department of Justice. So -- so to me, it's a flimsy case, but if I was on the hot seat, I would take it very seriously and dial in the way you need to when you're going up against the federal government.

HUNT: Yeah.

Anthony, what do you make of the reporting that we have just in here that the heart of this indictment is actually about an alleged false statement and obstruction related to the Hillary Clinton email investigation and not related to the Russia investigation. Does that change your interpretation of events at all?

SCARAMUCCI: Well, slightly, but not really, right? They were looking for anything. And so, they're going to construct a case based on that and going to say as a result of what they found when they uncovered documents that he intentionally and willfully lied to the Congress.

That is a very high criminal threshold. And I think James Comey has a lot of integrity, whatever you think of James Comey, to the interviews that you did a little earlier than me, he's upset everybody. He's upset MAGA. He's upset the Hillary Clinton camp.

HUNT: Nobody thinks he has integrity in either of those camps just to be clear.

SCARAMUCCI: Yeah, exactly. But that may mean that he does have integrity. Okay? If you've got 12 people on the case and his defense attorney argues that adroitly, that may mean they can prove to those people he's got a lot of integrity. He's upset everybody.

And remember this standard, this criminal standard on that issue is very, very high, which is why he may get a dismissal and he may end up with an acquittal. I think it's a high risk strategy for the government. It'll be very interesting to see which the Department of Justice attorney actually takes the case to prosecute James Comey --

HUNT: Yeah.

SCARAMUCCI: -- because they know when you're looking at this case, you're like, wow, I don't want to lose this case. And I'll tell you, the odds are that the government will lose this case if the Comey side handles it seriously.

HUNT: Yeah. Really, really interesting way to think about it. Anthony Scaramucci, always grateful to see you, my friend. Come back anytime, please.

SCARAMUCCI: Good to be on, Kasie. Have a great weekend. Thank you.

HUNT: Thank you. You, too.

All right. Coming up next here in THE ARENA, Democratic Congresswoman Debbie Dingell joins us live.

What will Democrats say now that it appears James Comeys indictment does center on the Hillary Clinton email probe, that they have long blamed for her defeat in 2016.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: I have now seen Director Comey's letter to Congress. We are 11 days out from perhaps the most important national election of our lifetimes. So, I look forward to moving forward to focus on the important challenges facing the American people. Winning on November 8th and working with all Americans to build a better future for our country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:47:21]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VAN HOLLEN: This is exhibit A in the gross corruption of the Department of Justice and the justice system under the Trump administration.

REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): It's clearly a case of vindictive and selective prosecution.

SEN. TIM KAINE (D-VA): This thing is a complete political hatchet job.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Democrats today decrying the indictment, of former FBI director James Comey. But let's be real, if you'd asked some of those same Democrats eight years ago, they would have and said, hey, you're going to be publicly defending James Comey. They probably would have looked at you a little bit sideways, because Democrats definitely have their own problems with him, and they stem, of course, from Comey's decision to announce the FBIs reopening of a probe of Hillary Clinton's emails just 11 days before election day in 2016.

And that probe is what sources now tell CNN is at the heart of this indictment. Comey's announcement then, of course, meant the entire week that led up to the 2016 election. This is what the airwaves looked like.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Breaking news tonight. Hillary Clinton's campaign hit with an October surprise by the FBI, only 11 days before the election.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In a new batch of emails related to Hillary Clinton's use of a private server.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: New Clinton related emails.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: The Hillary Clinton email server investigation.

HUNT: Hillary Clinton's email server.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: I was younger then.

Some in the party view Comey's decision as the reason Donald Trump became president in the first place. And of course, they've never forgotten that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: The Comey letter was the proximate cause. I believe without the Comey letter, I would have won.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: You said about Jim Comey that he he shivved you.

CLINTON: Yes.

COOPER: Which is a very -- I mean, that's a strong word.

CLINTON: It is a strong word.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Wow.

All right. CNN political writer, Washington bureau chief, David Chalian, is joining our panel, and we are joined by Democratic congresswoman from Michigan, Debbie Dingell.

Congresswoman, thank you so much for being here. I'm tempted to ask you if Hillary Clinton is right, that she would have won that election absent James Comey, because I'm not sure you're going to say that she would have. But I am interested to hear, you know, your take both on that, but also on Comey, the person at the fact that he is not revered by any corner of American politics, really, and how that fits into what's happened here.

REP. DEBBIE DINGELL (D-MI): So, let me be very clear. You know, it. I think most of your panel know it. I knew long before, he came on 11 days before the election and opened that investigation that we had serious problems with working men and women in my state and across the country.

[16:50:04]

So, was it a factor? Did it contribute in the end, to some of the lost votes? Yes. But there were other very significant reasons that we lost that election. I think his timing was unfortunate, but I'm not going to sum that election all up in what he did. But for the moment now, I think it's been summed up well by many of my

colleagues in the last 24 hours. I was not surprised that this happened. He sent out a on his social media, a -- I mean, threats almost to his attorney general about what she needed to do in retribution to a number of individuals. Comey being one of them.

People have been fired over this. People have quit their jobs over this. And we know that this is a form of retaliation that the president does when he feels like there's a score that needs to be even.

So, I think it's very dangerous. I'm very worried about it. I don't think this is going to be the last indictment, and we should all be worried about this right now.

HUNT: What do you think are the chances for a conviction if we get that far? And what implications would that have?

DINGELL: So, first of all, I don't even know what he was indicted upon. We can get all the speculation, but those aren't public documents. And I think people in these kinds of instances need to be very, very careful.

I think that since another U.S. attorney resigned because he didn't think that there was enough evidence to take this forward, that we've heard other people ordered to do it. And charges weren't. There, obviously, issues about whether this is a very strong case. And I just, you know, I'm just -- I don't think this is a good pattern. It's just setting a tone in this country. It's politicizing the justice department. I'm very worried about what's -- the whole environment in this country right now?

The death of Charlie Kirk is a political violence. What's happened in Minnesota? It its terrifying. And quite frankly, it's worrisome right now that violence is being normalized in this country. Political retribution is being normalized. That is not the strength of democracy. Any of them.

HUNT: David Chalian, let me bring you into this conversation. You have been looking at the new polling that we have here, and, you know, as the congresswoman is outlining, as we've been talking about, this is in many ways an unprecedented use of the Department of Justice and an example, perhaps, of there seem to be some voters that are saying they think Trump's going too far.

How do you think this cuts, given what you know about the data?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR & WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF: Yeah, I mean, I don't think voters are going to be too surprised by the president's actions here either, because I think he telegraphed a lot of this on the campaign trail. And I think he, as congresswoman was just saying, like made it clear in that completely norm busting kind of Truth Social post over the weekend who was attorney general.

But that doesn't mean being not surprised does not mean that they'll be okay with it. And I think there are clear concerns in our poll, just about Trump's policies broadly in terms of the extreme responses.

So, we asked people Trump's policies broadly right now, like, are you feeling enthusiastic about it? Satisfied, dissatisfied, angry, angry is the plurality of voters. That is where more -- more Americans than any other group park themselves and angry is twice as big a group as enthusiastic. So, in terms of like the passionate response to Trump policies, right now, it's on the angry side.

HUNT: So how do you look at this reporting from our team? Katelyn Polantz was sitting in that chair telling us that the heart of this indictment is actually about the Hillary Clinton email scandal, not about Russia? Does it matter?

CHALIAN: It's kind of amazing, right? Because we know it's the Russia investigation that the president is completely consumed with. And that is like at the heart of why he wanted to seek retribution. But it kind of sort of says, well, I don't care what color the retribution is. We just -- I want to get after James Comey is what it seems to be. If at the end of the day, the case is really not about the Russia investigation.

HUNT: Yeah. Congresswoman Dingell, what's your view on that? I mean, if in fact, the email investigation is at the heart of this and were going to hear about this for months, then were going to be hearing, you know, about Hillary Clinton and her emails for months and not about the Russia investigation.

DINGELL: Well, I kind of agree with people aren't surprised by what's happening. We know Donald Trump is going after many people that he is unhappy about. He views as having done unkind acts to him. He wants political retribution. I think, quite frankly, I just think this is one more thing.

You talk about how the American people are angry. They're just angry at everybody right now. There is total chaos. There's so they're on overload. There are so many issues that they need to be thinking about. We're -- I mean, unfortunately, looking at a looming government shutdown.

[16:55:02]

I -- you know, it's just one more thing that's going to add to the chaos of what's frustrating and making everybody angry about what's happening in our country.

HUNT: All right. Congresswoman Debbie Dingell, on that cheery note, I hope you have a lovely weekend and we'll see you back in Washington next week for the aforementioned.

(CROSSTALK)

DINGELL: -- on the town halls I'm doing.

(LAUGHTER)

HUNT: Come back. Tell us about it. When you come back in town, I really want to hear what your voters are saying.

DINGELL: Thank you.

HUNT: All right. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HUNT: All right. Thank you very much to my panel and thanks to you at home for watching. If you missed any of today's show, you can always catch up by listening to THE ARENA's podcast. Scan the QR code below. Follow along wherever you get your podcasts. You can follow us on X and Instagram @TheArenaCNN.

It is now time for "THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER".

Hi, Jake.