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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt
White House: "Thousands" Of Firings Likely Due To Shutdown; Trump: Meeting Today On Cuts To "Democrat Agencies"; Officials Expand Law Enforcement Efforts In Memphis. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired October 02, 2025 - 16:00 ET
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[16:00:00]
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Stay with CNN. THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT starts right now.
(MUSIC)
KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Hey, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. Welcome to THE ARENA. It's wonderful to have you with us on this Thursday.
This is day two of the government shutdown. At this hour, still no end in sight. The Senate out of town today for the Jewish holiday.
A vote, though, is expected tomorrow. The majority leader, John Thune, now says it's unlikely they'll try again over the weekend if it fails. Senate never likes to stick around for the weekend, let me just tell you.
But as the clock ticks, the stakes are high. As soon as today, thousands of federal workers could soon lose their jobs permanently. The White House is promising that these cuts are coming.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Can you give us an estimate on the amount of federal workers that the Trump administration wants to fire during the government shutdown? Are we talking hundreds? Are we talking thousands? KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Look, it's likely
going to be in the thousands. It's a very good question. And that's something that the office of management and budget and the entire team at the White House, here again, is unfortunately having to work on today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: So that word, unfortunately, just keep that in your mind as we look at the way that the President Donald Trump talked about these federal workforce cuts this morning.
He wrote this, quote, "I have a meeting today with Russ Vought. He of project 2025 fame, to determine which of the many agencies, most of which are political scam, he recommends to be cut and whether or not those cuts will be temporary or permanent. I can't believe the radical left Democrats gave me this unprecedented opportunity," end quote.
So, the question is just what will President Trump and the OMB Director Russell Vought cut? At this point, we don't know. But there is political risk here if it seems like the president and his party are celebrating as they cut programs that Americans rely on, might it have an impact on midterm races across the country?
That could explain why the House Speaker Mike Johnson seems to be striking a notably different tone.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Russ does this reluctantly. We had a 45-minute telephone conference with him yesterday. He talked to all the House Republicans. He takes no pleasure in this because Russ has to sit down and decide because he's in charge of that office, which policies, personnel and which programs are essential and which are not. That is not a fun task. And he is not enjoying that responsibility.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Isn't he, though? If you know Russ Vought, you might wonder if perhaps this is what he has been waiting for.
Now, of course, the big question is where are the Democrats in all of this? If you're interested to know what their message is to voters, they posted this on the platform formerly known as Twitter.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Republican and Democrat kitties cannot agree on what should be funded. Democrat kitties want you to have health care. Republican kitties do not.
Republican kitties control the Senate, House and the White House. So, they're using that to cut your health care and give money to billionaires.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Lulu, what are they doing?
LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I don't know, I think, you know, they're trying to listen. They're doing exactly what this modern media moment demands. Because now you're playing it and --
HUNT: Uh-huh.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: And -- no, no, but, I mean, I mean, I think it's dumb. Wait a second, wait a second. I think it's dumb. Don't get me wrong.
But the -- all we see over and over again and this is on the right and the left is, is trying to break through any way they can.
ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah. I tell you though, like the Democrats are not good at this anymore. I mean that like in 2015, the Democrats ruled the roost on social media, right? Republicans couldn't keep up.
Now, it's the opposite. And I think what's happened is Democrats are still kind of stuck in doing the kitschy thing on social media. And in reality, I think people want a little more serious. They did that little selfie one the other day, and it was -- it was weird.
BRAD TODD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: TikToks and filibusters are all the Democratic Party has to offer America right now.
ADRIENNE ELROD, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Okay. A for effort --
HUNT: All right. Let's take a quick second. Adam Kinzinger, Lulu Garcia-Navarro are here with us. Adrienne Elrod, Democratic strategist. Brad Todd, our Republican strategist.
On the left side of your screen, you're going to see our ARENA text chain. Let's bring them in. We're going to share additional analysis from a few key CNN reporters looking specifically at how the shutdown is impacting real people.
[16:05:00]
And I think, you know, that's my -- like my sense here, Adrienne, is that like, you know, okay. Yes, we're playing the kitty video. And Democrats are trying to talk about health care. I will give them that.
But at the same time not clear to me it's breaking through.
ELROD: Well, look, first of all, Kasie, the video made your show, so I feel like that's at least -- maybe it made the show because it's a little, you know, goofy and weird.
HUNT: C-R-I-N-G-E.
ELROD: Yeah, but it still made the show. I mean, look, here's the bottom line. I think Democrats are definitely
an advantage here. And we're seeing that play out in some of the polling. There was a "Washington Post" poll that came out today that showed that --
HUNT: Let's put that up.
ELROD: -- a significant majority of Americans believe that Republicans are responsible for the shutdown. And look, the bottom line is this, Kasie, affordability, affordability, affordability. This is what the voters care about in this country.
This is why they voted for Donald Trump. He has made prices only go higher since then. They also care a lot about their health care. And I will also say, Kasie, not to deviate too far off from the topic, but I think Democrats have oftentimes had a really difficult time talking about health care and how it portends to the American people. You may remember during the Biden campaign, we talked a lot about $25 insulin, and lowering the cost of premiums.
HUNT: Do I remember, or have I forgotten?
ELROD: Or have you forgotten?
(LAUGHTER)
ELROD: But here's a chance for us to right the wrong and basically talk about the fact that even though Americans are paying for health care, they're paying too much, premiums are still high. And when they go into their doctor's offices, they still oftentimes have to pay for health care. This is a chance for us to really go back on offense, on health care, because we're the ones who are trying to fight for it and trying to save it. And I think, again, that puts Democrats at an advantage.
HUNT: I think the question here, though, though, for a lot of voters, is going to be right. What's worth shutting the government down over? Let's watch a little bit of what Hakeem Jeffries just said a few minutes ago, trying to make this connection. And then I think Brad Todd is itching to jump in over here. Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): The American people are crystal clear on who shut down the government, crystal clear. They know it was Donald Trump and Republicans. Donald Trump and Republicans spent all of last year promising that they were going to lower the high cost of living. They also spent all of last year running away from Project 2025, acting like Project 2025 didn't exist.
But what have they been doing this year? This year, they've done nothing. Zip. Zero stingy with de Niro, nothing to lower the high cost of living for every Americans.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Brad Todd?
TODD: Well, I think Hakeem Jeffries would like to talk about rhymes, and Adrienne would like to talk about health care, and she does so eloquently.
But that's not -- neither of those things is what this is about. There is a carnival of cannibals outside Chuck Schumer's office. They're mad at him for keeping the government open last March, and he's going to dance for them and hope that they eat him last. He would trail Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez by 19 points in a hypothetical Senate primary. Right now, Democrats have got the polling.
And that's what this is about. Chuck Schumer is doing a performative dance for the far left.
HUNT: Do you agree with that?
KINZINGER: I think look -- yeah, I think to an extent they have to -- it's not really a performative dance, but I do think they have to worry about their left flank. And because I really think their time to fight was actually in March and they kind of missed that. But I think they're fighting on good ground.
I mean, typically I would say, you know, the Republicans may have the advantage because we were talking about -- they're good at messaging right now. They have all these branches. But the Republicans, I think, are fighting on something that relates to people.
And they're very clear. They should have been clearer on the message. But like, look, you know, we do have some people in government and the way the Constitution is written, we get a say in this. And so, here's the thing -- it's not like we're asking for anything crazy. Just like extend these -- these health care subsidies.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yeah. I think what you're seeing in the polling is also something that the -- that the Republicans are struggling with, which is this is a very chaotic administration, right? Every day something different is happening. People feel overwhelmed. All people, whether they're plugged in or they're not.
And so, if you had to just, you know, put a name out of the hat and say, who's to blame for this? You are naturally going to say Donald Trump, even if you don't know the particulars, because that has been kind of what has been happening every day.
HUNT: The mold.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: It fits the mold. So, I don't think people are perhaps looking too much. Thats why there's so many people that are undecided. They don't really know. But this chaos, this sense of like instability, I think feeds into a problem for the Republican Party and the administration.
TODD: But not if the press does its job. The press has always been very clear that C.R.s are not continuing resolutions, which Congress has been debating are not the places to bring in new policy. It's to keep the government open.
CNN has been clear about that. "The New York Times" has been clear about that. Everyone has always been very clear that it's wrong to bring policy into a shutdown. The press has an obligation to follow those same rules.
ELROD: Yeah, but Republicans have also tried to use the C.R. as a vehicle to put some of their pet projects. It was act like this --
TODD: No, it --
(CROSSTALK)
ELROD: -- was Democrats.
(CROSSTALK)
TODD: It was a mistake. We tried to shut the government down to use the C.R., and we got killed for it.
[16:10:00]
GARCIA-NAVARRO: I'm very happy to hear you say that the -- that the press really has an obligation at this point. It's not something I often hear these days.
But what I will say about this is that the case that Republicans are making is that they want a clean C.R., right? And that they will negotiate after the fact what Democrats say. And this is not a case they're making publicly, but what they say privately is that, hey, listen, we have tried to negotiate this. And what's ended up happening is that when budgets are passed, then all this money gets clawed back.
And so, what are we negotiating over? We can't trust the other side at this point because they're taking --
TODD: Wait a minute, the money --
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Because they're taking --
TODD: The money is out, 12-31 this year and this C.R. only goes for seven.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Because the feeling is that they're no longer negotiating with the people in the House and the Senate. They're negotiating with the White House.
(CROSSTALK)
HUNT: Well, that's always a fundamental reality of these negotiations.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yeah, but this is much more so --
HUNT: The rescissions, in particular, is a big difference here. Otherwise, it does feel a little bit like just deja vu in reverse, right? The way Republicans are, Democrats are each arguing this.
All right. I do want to bring CNN's Alayna Treene into this conversation. She's at the White House.
And, Alayna, we've obviously been talking about the messaging. And you know, all you know, who's up, who's down, who's winning the political fight here. Our text has been talking about real people who are going to be impacted by this.
And there are tens of thousands of them, many of them employed by the federal government, others that rely on services. So, there is this big question of what is the standing right now of these negotiations to reopen the government.
And you have some new reporting about what's going on at the White House.
What are you seeing?
ALAYNA TREENE, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: That's right. We actually just recently -- well, I should credit our great photographer, Khalil Abdullah, who saw Mike Johnson arriving at the White House. I spoke with people in the West Wing, and they told me the president is meeting with the house speaker.
However, I'm told this is more broadly just about the shutdown overall. And he doesn't have some, you know, immediate negotiation tactic that he is discussing, for example, with the president, but kind of getting everyone on the same page, particularly before the house comes back in just a couple days. They were off this week.
But I do want to get back to your point about the layoffs, because I think that's very important. What we're seeing happening right now, at least what we're hearing, that the White House has plans to do. I was just chatting with some White House officials about this is unprecedented.
This idea of not just laying off, we know workers during a shutdown -- government workers normally get furloughed because they can't get paid during a government shutdown. They are planning to do something that no other White House has ever done, which is to fire thousands of federal workers.
We heard the president call this an unprecedented opportunity this morning. Essentially, what I'm -- their argument and the White House's strategy on this is that, you know, there's no budget, there's no money coming in. They need to triage where to put all the money. And so, they're going to be moving forward with these layoffs.
But what's different is they're planning on making a lot of them permanent. And I'm actually told, just one of the conversations I just had before I came on air with you, Kasie, that they already know which agencies they want to target. They wouldn't share with me the specifics of what they are, but they've --
HUNT: I mean, hasn't Russ Vought been working on this list? TREENE: Yes.
HUNT: And the way he wants to think about this for years if not, you know?
TREENE: Well, that was kind of the nod of project 2025 that we saw the president note in one of his posts this morning. I mean, he's been wanting to Russ Vought, you know, slash the federal workforce, shrink the size of federal government for years. And that was kind of when I was talking to White House officials, they said it was kind of the president trolling about his role in Project 2025, because, of course, on the campaign trail, the president tried to distance himself from it repeatedly that conservative policy platform.
But look, there are a lot of things that the White House is planning on doing and really to take advantage in is kind of what they're arguing of this opportunity. The blame game is, of course, still happening. They argue that the layoffs that were going to see are, in part, Democrats' fault. Of course, I think a lot of Democrats have rolled their eyes and criticized that strategy.
Their argument is that you know, if they had passed, if Democrats had agreed to go move forward with this, you know, C.R. fund the government for a couple more weeks, they could have had a broader negotiation over what the budget would look like.
Instead, now, the president and really, Russell Vought, the White House budget director, are now taking that into their own hands and are going to decide really what they want the budget to look like moving forward. While all of this plays out with the shutdown.
HUNT: Yeah.
All right. Alayna Treene, thank you very much for that reporting. I really appreciate it.
Congressman Kinzinger, when we were talking about Russ Vought, I saw you nodding out of the corner of my eye and, Senator Kevin Cramer was on FOX News and he had some, you know, interesting framing for how Russ Vought has been preparing for this moment.
I want to watch that. We'll talk about it. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MIKE LEE (R-UT): Russ Vought, the OMB director, has been dreaming about this moment, preparing this moment since puberty. Russ Vought has a plan. And that plan is going to succeed in empowering, further empowering Trump. This is going to be the Democrats worst nightmare, and it's of their own making.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: I'm going to correct myself. That was Senator Mike Lee, not Kevin Cramer, but he says that Russ Vought is preparing for this since, quote, "puberty". KINZINGER; I say that's gross thinking about Russ Vought's puberty.
But anyway, listen, I --
[16:15:02]
HUNT: Blame Mike Lee, please.
KINZINGER: This is true. Like, I think they run a real risk here of, you know, most Americans know that, like, you don't have to lay people off because you're just trying to figure out where to put the money. Like they read right through it. They know.
And so, they run a real risk of showing, as you were talking about earlier, real chaos here. And the one thing the president needs to do to come out of this on top -- I mean, he has to just win his base, basically, which he will. But the one thing he needs to do is to show that he's kind of the steady hand. He's leading people through it.
And I think this is going to do actually the direct opposite of that. So, you know, we'll have to see what happens. But everybody wants less government. I think most people do. But it usually goes through Congress and through study and not through this opportunity, like, hey, I'm going to go slash and burn.
HUNT: Yeah. Brad, do you think that there is -- I mean, look, I take the point that Chuck Schumer is under pressure from the left to do something. The base wants him to be seen fighting. They're doing something. They always argued that they weren't going to do.
I get all that. But do you see political risk for Republicans in taking this too far, this lay off stuff?
TODD: Sure, sure. But there was political risk in Barack Obama shutting down the World War II Memorial during his shutdown, too. All presidents get to fill in the gaps during this, when Congress abdicates its role in keeping the government open, which is what the Democratic Party is doing, because they won't put eight votes behind it. We don't need 50 Democrats.
HUNT: Would you -- would your advice be for people to for Republicans who are trying to win elections to talk about this the way Mike Johnson is, where he's saying this is unfortunate. You know, we don't want to have to do this as opposed to seeming to revel in it.
TODD: It is. It is. I think -- I think Republicans need to be very disciplined and make very clear that we have passed in the House a bill to keep the government open. It is a clean, continuing resolution. Senate Democrats can oppose that resolution in the Senate if they want, but they need to let the Senate consider it.
Only eight Democrats need to let the Senate consider it. Actually, seven will work and we can move on, and then they can vote no on the bill. They are just shutting down the government out of political spite, all political --
ELROD: Now, that is not true. I mean, here's the bottom line. If Republicans want to keep the government open, they need to come to the table with Democrats and talk about what can get those Democrats on their side to do this. Instead, they have had no conversations.
TODD: They can offer amendments on the floor, on the budget.
ELROD: They've had. They have -- they've had limited discussions. The president canceled and rescheduled and canceled, rescheduled his meeting with Jeffries.
TODD: You don't need to talk to the president. You can talk on the floor.
ELROD: But the bottom line, the bottom line -- Brad, you know this -- Republicans are in control of the White House, the Senate and the Congress.
TODD: But Democrats control --
ELROD: So therefore, it is on them. It's on them.
TODD: No, Democrats could control what we debate on the floor.
ELROD: They have a say, but they're not in control.
TODD: Let's just move to a debate.
ELROD: They're not in control of it.
KINZINGER: This is one of the very only points Democrats have that they can have leverage to fight, and they've got to use it. If I'm leading the Democrats, that's what I'm going to look at and say, here's our leverage point. And I think --
HUNT: That's certainly what people that are putting pressure on Chuck Schumer are trying to accomplish here.
All right. We got a lot more to talk about today. Coming up, the president says he is looking to cut, quote, "Democrat agencies" in the first wave of shutdown impacts. We're going to talk with a Democrat from a blue state, Congressman Jason Crow will join us live.
But, first, your tax dollars at work making memes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. TIM WALZ (D), MINNESOTA: I served in the House when shutdowns happened. It is outrageous for me to think that we're sending out memes. We're laughing at people. We have people being furloughed. We have programs being cut, and these people are still receiving a paycheck.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:22:41] HUNT: So welcome back. We are on day two of the shutdown and the meme war rages on.
Ground zero is the White House briefing room, where memes attacking Democrats over the shutdown are playing on a loop for a second day in a row. Yesterday's meme of choice was this fake photo of Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries wearing a sombrero, a reference to the Republican claim that Democrats want to provide health care to undocumented immigrants.
Senator Ted Cruz got in on it last night. He had this edit for other Democratic lawmakers. Democrats, of course, calling the posts racist and unserious, responding with some memes of their own.
Speaker Johnson gave this advice to his Democratic colleagues today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Many of you asked me this morning about sombreros and memes and why Hakeem Jeffries is all alarmed by that. Look, these are games. These are sideshows people are getting caught up in, in battles over social media memes.
To my friend Hakeem, who I was asked about -- man, just ignore it. I mean, Gavin Newsom was trolling me last night. He painted me like a minion. He painted me yellow with big glasses and overalls. And I thought it was hilarious. You don't respond to it.
For all my friends, for all my friends, Rs and Ds, don't respond to it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: I think that's Mike Johnson, the Christian talking right there. Just rise above it.
But Lulu Garcia, I mean, like -- like one of the biggest differences between this shutdown and, you know, I mean, we've all at this table been through many of these, right? I mean, the number of times I sat, you know, until midnight outside one of these speaker offices or whatever, honestly, those times were way more serious than this particular time. And all of this kind of speaks to that.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yeah. I mean, I guess I'm going to repeat what I said earlier with the kitty cat thing, which is like, this is being fought in a lot of different ways. Right? And what are we talking about when we're talking about messaging and, and what people seem to have taken from the 2024 election is that we need to be as unserious, as offensive, as meme-oriented as possible in order to break through to people.
Now, you can argue it, you can say that it shouldn't be the way. There are real things happening here, people losing their jobs, potentially, people not having money, not being able to feed their kids. And let's not even talk about what it might affect -- how it might affect the economy more broadly, which is already not doing terribly well. [16:25:07]
But at the same time, like if you're on social media, that's what you're -- that's what you're looking at.
ELROD: Well, and lastly, when we went through a shutdown in 2013, we didn't have what we call the attention economy now, at least not to the extent that it was.
So, Lulu is exactly right. I mean, on the one hand, this is a very serious issue. People are losing their jobs, they're losing their health care. You know, there are food pantries open in Washington where people can go get free meals because they've been laid off from the government or furloughed.
But at the same time, if you want to break through, then you have to do these silly little memes and cat videos and whatnot that will actually gain attention on social media and drive home the point that this is a very serious issue and that Democrats and Republicans need to come to us.
KINZINGER: It's like when people are against like, you know, they say, I won't take corporate money. Therefore, I'm not going to raise PAC money. And all you're doing is kind of unilaterally disarming yourself. You may think it's gross to raise PAC money, but the fact is that's the rules. And you got to play on that -- on that game.
So, while I hate the meme war, they're funny, but I hate it because I want to be serious about it. The Democrats do have to catch up to the Republicans on this, because this is why they're cutting through to the youth vote and the male vote, especially.
ELROD: Uh-huh.
TODD: I think this is another piece of risk for Democrats in this, though, and that is they're auditioning to take over the government. They want to win back the Congress in an election that's going to be just 12 months away, 13 months away.
Showing that you want to shut the government down is not a good way to win the argument to take back the congress. I know, we tried it.
ELROD: Saying we want to shut the government down, we want to make sure that people have healthcare --
TODD: Oh, you did, that's it. --
(CROSSTALK)
TODD: When you vote against the C.R. --
ELROD: We're not in charge, Brad. We're not in charge of our government. We're not the party in charge.
HUNT: We're going to stay in meme worlds and out of -- out of C.R.s, and, you know, nerd world, I love you both. But one of the Democrats who is trying to fight on this meme war
footing territory is Gavin Newsom. Obviously, the president has a nickname for Gavin Newsom. We also know that Gavin Newsom would like to be president of the United States. That's the Mike Johnson minion meme.
But he also put this up in his governor press office account. Trump as Marie Antoinette, who he writes, Trump "Marie Antoinette" says no health care for you peasants, but a ballroom for the queen.
Who would you say is doing the best job of fighting on this territory?
KINZINGER: I mean, this is -- I mean, that's -- that's -- that was the funniest thing. And that's why I sit here and I'm like, I hope we don't do memes because I want to be serious. But I laughed my face off at stuff like that. It's really funny.
And the reality is it gets under Trump's skin because he is the kind of guy that, like that would bother him. He can't look past it. So, Newsom's press team and Newsom, they're doing a good job. I don't know if this is something they need to continue for the next two years, but I mean, as of now, I think they're the most effective.
HUNT: Yeah. Lulu, I mean, what do you think is the paradigm for how Democrats should be fighting in this new territory? Because, I mean, I think after March, the consensus was definitely that whatever it is, Chuck Schumer did it wrong because he did not come out of that looking.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Well, remember the dance that he did? You know yeah. Listen, if I had to make a prediction about anything, I would say that Chuck Schumer's days are pretty numbered. And that's not only because he might be primaried, but I think there's just like a lot of dissatisfaction with large, over his leadership because, you know, when I interviewed him the last time in March, he basically said, listen, I know how to win elections. I know how to recruit candidates that are going to win elections.
The end of the day --
HUNT: -- at one point.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yeah. And that's what I'm saying. And but I don't know that he has the faith of his caucus. And when we're talking about memes, the fact is that all of this is playing out not only in the halls of state houses and in backrooms.
It's playing out on social media. It's playing out in people's living rooms. It's playing out in their phones. And if you can't sell it there, then you have a problem.
TODD: Congressman Kinzinger is going to remember that from the 2013 shutdown, when John Boehner finally decided to accede to the right wing wishes or conservative wishes and shut the government down, much as Chuck Schumer is doing for his base right now. What happened to John Boehner? Two years later, they ran him out of the house. He was retired. And so, you know, Chuck Schumer doing his best AOC imitation here may not win the hearts of people who, like AOC.
HUNT: Yeah. Adrienne, what is your sense? In terms of where Chuck Schumer stands here and why -- how much of this is motivated by his own personal, the personal pressures on him and whether he wants to stay in the senate and how much of it is bigger than that?
ELROD: I think it's a little bit of both. I mean, look, I know we've talked about whether or not he's going to be challenged where -- I mean, Democrats are obviously very frustrated with him the first time around in March when he essentially sided with the Republicans.
But the congressman is exactly right. This is our chance to fight back. We don't have a lot of ground here in Washington to do that. I think he heard that message, and he's doing the best he can.
You know, I do think that there is a desire also from some members to have a leadership change, but I'll believe it when I see it. There's no one that I've heard or seen step up and say publicly on the record, not on background or off the record to reporters, but publicly on the record, and say, I'm going to take on Schumer and challenge him as the minority leader.
[16:30:04]
So I believe it when I see it.
HUNT: This is a problem Democrats dealt with in the 2024 presidential election, where no one would go on the record and say what everybody said privately about who was at the top of the ticket.
ELROD: Well, I -- again, this is -- this is -- this is a smaller --
HUNT: I know I'm putting you in a tough spot.
ELROD: This is a smaller constituency that would have to -- that would have to vote here. This is -- we're talking about, you know, close to 50 members as opposed to, you know, millions of Americans.
TODD: Elected Democrats heard very well, though its grassroots Democrats that don't hear it well. On the Republican side, we don't heard well at all either way. And so, I think you will not hear from the senators calling for Chuck Schumer's ouster until they, too, have cannibals camped out on their front porch.
HUNT: Do you get the sense, Brad? I mean, do you how much of a parallel do you see between what we're seeing from the left, the Democratic Party now, and what the right went through that ended up with Donald Trump?
TODD: It's totally true. We had the tea party and 2010 was when that started. I would call this the chai party on the left. And it is when the voters of the base decide that the elected officials no longer have their back. You cannot like that. You can like that, but you have to deal with it.
KINZINGER: Yeah. And the problem with that for Democrats, the warning as a guy that's been through this on the Republican side is the tendency is to say, well, let's -- as people get more radical on the left or right, in our case, let's bring them into the fold. Let's give them something. Let's keep -- and it actually ends up dragging your whole party that way.
Now it worked out for Trump, but I think it made the Republican Party --
HUNT: Took a charismatic leader.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Can I --
KINZINGER: Yeah.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Can I just give a reality check with all of this, which is on the left and on the right there is huge dissatisfaction with the status quo in this country. There are people who cannot make ends meet. They feel absolutely like they have been cut out of the process in this country. And Donald Trump did a very good job of bringing those people in, making them feel heard. And the Democrats are trying to do the same thing.
This is actually coming, I would argue, from the bottom up and not from the top.
ELROD: Trump has only made it worse in terms of costs since he's become president.
HUNT: All right. We're going to continue to be talking about this shutdown as long as -- as long as it is. I want to thank our friends in THE ARENA text chain for bringing us a different perspective. The rest of our panel will continue to be here.
Coming up next, Democratic Congressman Jason Crow will be here live as the leaders of his party show no signs of budging in those funding negotiations.
Plus, one state getting ready to go to court as the administration escalates deployments of federal law enforcement officers across the country.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN MILLER, TRUMP AIDE: I see the guns and badges in this room. You are unleashed. The handcuffs that you're carrying, they're not on you anymore. They're on the criminals and whatever you need to get it done, were going to get it done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:36:59] HUNT: All right. Day two of the government shutdown. The Trump administration wasting little time in using it as an opportunity, as they promised, to make cuts to what the president calls deadwood waste and fraud.
The OMB director, Russ Vought, has already announced that the government will freeze $18 billion in funding for New York City Transit projects and would cut $8 billion to green energy projects in 16 states that are represented by Democrats in the Senate.
And the president today, mincing no words, saying he's meeting over which Democrat agencies to cut.
Joining me now, Democratic Congressman Jason Crow of Colorado, who sits on the House Intelligence and Armed Services Committee.
Congressman, thank you so much for joining us. What does it tell you that the administration is targeting cities and states that are represented by Democrats here?
REP. JASON CROW (D-CO): Well, Kasie, the primary reason for this shutdown is that Donald Trump and house Republicans want to slash health care for millions of Americans, completely end health care for over 13 million Americans, and then in many cases double the premium increases for many, many more. Were just not going to do that so that Donald Trump can give tax breaks and major windfalls to billionaires and our largest corporations.
But in addition to that, as you just pointed out, they're trying to use the budget to target political opponents to end free speech, to use the FCC to target media companies, to purge the ranks of our military, of people that disagree with them, who have certain political leanings. And now, they're not even pretending they are using the budget to try to exact retribution on Democrats or areas of the country they don't like.
I am not going to fund that. It would be insane for anybody, Democrat or Republican, to give a blank check to an administration that is doing those things and say, do whatever you want with this money. No -- no guardrails, no checks and balances. That simply is unacceptable.
HUNT: The president has characterized the fact that Democrats stood ground and said, were not going to vote to continue to fund the government. He's called that an opportunity. And he says that the Office of Management and Budget is going to make all sorts of permanent layoffs to the government.
Do you think that that was smart for Democrats to give them that opportunity?
CROW: First of all, this isn't about an opportunity. This is about the suffering of the American people. You know, there are people who don't know if they're going to pay their bills at the end of the month, or even sooner. People that don't have health care, folks that are just getting notices that they're -- their health insurance premiums are doubling, right? Donald Trump -- I mean, listen, all of this can be boiled down to Donald Trump's view of the world. He views this through a lens of what he can get out of it, personally.
[16:40:00]
I'm not talking about what he can get out of it for the good of the country or the good of the administration. What he can personally benefit and get out of this, either politically or literally, for his wallet, in his bank account, because let's not forget, while Americans are struggling, the president has added a reported $2 billion to his net worth because of the meme coin, because of the graft, the corruption of this administration, while people continue to suffer.
So yeah, yeah, of course, he views this as an opportunity to get something for him or to exact retribution on his opponents while everybody else who gives a about Americans and who's actually leading the way, they should be leading, is trying to figure out how do we make this better for people? How do we end this shutdown? At the same time, save people's health care and end the abuses of this administration in our government?
HUNT: What do you think Democrats should require in order to get the government reopen? Is, for example, a promise to negotiate the subsidies good enough to open the government temporarily? Or is it not good enough?
CROW: Yeah, a promise is not going to do it for me. It's just not. Why -- why would a -- why would I take a promise by Donald Trump?
The man lies constantly. He breaks promises constantly. Donald Trump only does what he is forced to do, right? And that was the problem back in April when the Senate voted for this stopgap funding, as people thought we were operating in normal times, everything's normal. You're dealing with somebody in good faith. That was a mistake. I knew it was a mistake back in April, which is why I voted against it.
Well, between April and now, if you haven't seen glaringly that there is no good faith by this president, that he will break a promise as quickly as he makes it, then you're not paying attention. This is not normal. So, what needs to happen is we need to end these windfall tax breaks for these billionaires on the backs of Americans that slashes their health care, right? These subsidies, the subsidy issue needs to be addressed now because people are having to pay for this now.
In addition to that, I want guarantees -- I need guarantees that the money that Congress is giving this administration will be used for the purposes that we say it will be used for, because Donald Trump and Russ Vought and others in this administration have taken money over and over again. And they said, you know what? We're going to use it how we want to use it. It doesn't matter what you say, as Congress, even though the Constitution says that Congress is the one who makes the budget, they don't care.
So, I want guardrails. HUNT: All right. Congressman, briefly, before I let you go, I didn't
want to conclude this interview without asking you about what we saw at Quantico with the defense secretary earlier this week. And, of course, he then went to Memphis, where were seeing law enforcement boots on the ground as well as now in Oregon.
Taken together, what does what this president and this defense secretary, what they are doing, what does it say to you?
CROW: Well, first of all, packing hundreds of general officers, generals and admirals into a room so they could be lectured by Pete Hegseth on woke culture war issues and grooming standards is not something that you see in the United States of America or should see in United States of America. That's something that Vladimir Putin would do. That's something that Kim Jong Un would do, or Xi would do in a dictatorship, not in the United States of America, because it's not how we do business, right?
And just imagine, just imagine this for a minute. Youve been serving for 40 years. You're a general. You have a dozen combat deployments under your belt. You have seen your friends give their life for this country. Youve uprooted your family every three years. You work 80, 90, 100-hour weeks to complete missions and to do right by the men and women under your charge.
And you are called back last minute, away from your post, away from your mission to sit in a room and to hear a ted talk by Pete Hegseth on grooming standards, the right way to shave, how to wear uniforms, and making sure people aren't fat in their ranks.
That's crazy, right? That's crazy. It's a waste of taxpayer dollars. It's a waste of their time. It's a waste of their focus on their mission. And it's just plain un-American.
And then you add on top of that, Donald Trump lecturing them and rambling about his favorite war movies, about bringing battleships back. It was a disgrace. It was a waste of time. And our service members deserve better.
HUNT: All right. Congressman Jason Crow, very grateful to have you on the show today, sir. I hope you'll come back soon. Thank you.
All right. Coming up next here, the message that the head of the Oregon National Guard is telling his troops ahead of their expected deployment in Portland, as top officials expand federal law enforcement efforts across more cities.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:49:23]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Politicians spend a lot of time second-guessing you -- second-guessing the impossible decisions that you have to make that they will never understand. It's part of what we're trying to do at the department for our troops overseas or in combat and elsewhere, is we're not here to second-guess you. We're here to have your back, to unleash you, to do your job.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth in Memphis, that is one of two Democratic-led cities where the administration is escalating federal law enforcement efforts in Memphis, more than 200 federally deputized officers now part of what's being called the Safe Task Force.
[16:50:00]
Our CNN team on the ground today did see uniformed military personnel at a makeshift command center. As of now, though, the National Guard not a part of the effort, at least not yet. And in Oregon, despite the president saying Wednesday that troops are, quote, in place, the national guard is not confirming their presence in Portland. The police chief tells CNN he believes that they will be deployed soon.
Oregon's governor, Democrat Tina Kotek, is calling the move, quote, unlawful and says the president is wasting millions of dollars on a made-up problem.
Our panel is back.
And, of course, Congressman Kinzinger, you served in uniform for 20 years.
And I want to read -- there's a letter from the adjutant general of the Oregon National Guard, right? And he wrote to his troops. He says this. I know some of you may have strong feelings about this mission. That's okay. Your citizens first. But you're also service members who took an oath to support and defend the Constitution and follow the orders of the president and the governor.
The oath doesn't come with an asterisk that says, only when I agree with the mission. We don't get to pick and choose. We execute lawful orders with professionalism and honor, period. That's what sets us apart. That's what makes us the National Guard.
That emphasis he puts on lawful orders. And there is a distinction between Oregon and Tennessee, where the governor of Oregon does not want these troops there. What do you hear in his statement, and how do you reflect on this?
KINZINGER: I think it was a very good statement for him to put out, because I hear military members like, is now the time to disobey orders? No. Like if you get an order to shoot Americans, that's the time. It's not stuff like this.
But yeah, what I hear in that is a reminder to the troops. Like, if, you know, if you're told to open fire, don't do that. Know what your lawful orders are. Youve been trained on this. And I think that's just really good leadership.
Again, I say this every time because it's important, if the governor does not give permission for the National Guard to be there, they become federal troops. It's the 82nd airborne, for all intents and purposes.
So, this is not the national guard in Oregon right now. And they cannot do law enforcement. And I think it's important for the -- for the TAG, the adjutant general, to say that.
TODD: But they can -- they can protect the federal building.
KINZINGER: Yes.
TODD: There's been 100 different police calls to the federal building. Theres been a police described as a riot at the federal building this year, that people saying demonstrators setting fire. People are demonstrating at that federal building all the time. And the federal government can come in and protect the federal building.
In Memphis, they're going to be 150 National Guard members, is what Bill Lee says, the governor of Tennessee, they won't be armed. They won't be making arrests. They could be armed if the police decide they want them to be armed. It's not the plan.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: We've experienced this here in D.C. I mean, D.C. was a testing ground for a lot of what is happening. And D.C. is different because of its status and what we've seen is federal law enforcement actually, you know, helping arrest people, helping detain people, really acting as you know, a sort of supplementary force.
And the question that so many people have is, first of all, is that the role that we really want for our federal government, to be policing and arresting American citizens, and in some cases, they're not American citizens, but they are going after them in ways that are very, very problematic.
And so, you know, all of this, where is it going and why is it happening? Because, you know what I hear a lot of people asking is, is this the United States of America or is this the United States of MAGA? Are we now two countries where you have the right people, the red people, and then the blue people get penalized and the blue cities get penalized and they get forces put in there, or are we one country and a federal government that represents them all?
TODD: The question is we're going to have a safe country. But in the Biden administration, they surged people from other agencies into D.C. There was a Biden proposal to do that. You have 13 agencies sending law enforcement people to Memphis, federal agencies. That's the same thing, that the governor has asked them to come.
HUNT: Well --
KINZINGER: That's the key, is the governor.
HUNT: Yeah, right. Exactly. In terms of lawfulness.
So, speaking of governors that are involved in this, one of them is J.B. Pritzker of Illinois. Also, I think for context, a likely 2028 Democratic presidential candidate.
Here's what he said recently about the president. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. J.B. PRITZKER (D), ILLINOIS: It appears that Donald Trump -- not only his dementia set in, but he's copying tactics of Vladimir Putin, sending troops into cities, thinking that that's some sort of proving ground for war, or that indeed there's some sort of. Internal war going on in the United States is just, frankly, inane. And I'm concerned for his health.
There is something genuinely wrong with this man. And the 25th Amendment ought to be invoked.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Adrienne?
ELROD: This is how you do it. I mean, he presented a very simple, clear, concise message. He drew the contrast. He made it very clear. And he's -- you know, to the congressman's point, I mean, it's up to the governors.
He's made it very clear he doesn't want the National Guard coming in.
[16:55:01]
And I also want to add to the fact that while, yes, maybe some have helped a little bit with the law enforcement side here in D.C., I've also seen quite a few guardsmen picking up trash walking the streets without anything to do. These are people who are being taken away from their families who are, you know, being -- some of them taken away from their jobs. It is not a productive use of their time.
And I think, you know, Trump is sending these folks into either blue states, blue towns or into areas that simply don't want them.
KINZINGER: This is being used to, I think, honestly, to desensitize the American people to troops being in their city. That's what's frightening to me, because the military cannot be played politics with.
HUNT: All right. That's a good place to wrap up this conversation.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HUNT: Thanks to my panel for joining us today. Really appreciate it.
Thanks to all of you at home for joining as well.
Don't forget, if you've missed any of today's show or any of our shows, you can always catch up by listening to the podcast. Just scan the QR code below. Follow along wherever you get your podcasts. You can also follow us on X and Instagram @TheArenaCNN.
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