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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt

Trump & World Leaders Sign Gaza Ceasefire Deal; Obama Rebukes Trump: "We're Being Tested Right Now"; Sources: Senior Prosecutor Removed In Key U.S. Attorney's Office. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired October 13, 2025 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:00]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: The accolades that he is getting. And I think there are a lot of people we talked to Leon Panetta today who thinks, you know, perhaps there is something to be learned and well see if Trump can carry that forward and do so when it comes to Vladimir Putin.

Kristen Holmes, thank you so much for that, live for us at the White House.

ERICA HILL, CNN HOST: We'll see if -- as Kristen noted, if that momentum can, in fact, sustain.

KEILAR: That's right.

HILL: Nice to be with you, as always, my friend. Always a pleasure.

KEILAR: So good to be with you, Erica. I love it.

All right. "THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT" starts right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Hi, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. Welcome to THE ARENA. It's wonderful to have you with us on this Monday.

A historic moment in the Middle East as world leaders signed a deal formalizing a ceasefire in Gaza, a deal that President Donald Trump heralded as the beginning of peace in the Middle East.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is the historic dawn of a new Middle East. Generations from now, this will be remembered as the moment that everything began to change and change very much for the better. Like the USA right now, it will be the golden age of Israel and the golden age of the Middle East.

This took 3,000 years to get to this point. Can you believe it? And it's going to hold up, too. It's going to hold up.

(END VIDEO CLIP) HUNT: It's going to hold up, he says. That summit there in Egypt, capping off a momentous day that saw Hamas release all 20 of the living Israeli hostages, reuniting them with their families after more than two years of captivity amid war.

(VIDEO CLIP PLAYS)

HUNT: Not possible to watch that without becoming emotional. Parents, spouses, children once again holding loved ones that they, of course, feared that they might never see again.

And at the same time, massive celebration broke out in Gaza. Israel released almost 2,000 Palestinians, many of whom were being held without charges.

And now the question, what comes next? Will this ceasefire hold? Will Hamas disarm? Will Israel remove its military from Gaza?

Today, President Trump said the next phase of talks is already underway as he projected confidence that this cease fire marks simply the beginning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: After years of suffering and bloodshed, the war in Gaza is over. This will be maybe the greatest deal of them all, period. And I want to thank all of you and all of these great nations and this region for what it's gone through, and all of the fights it's had on life over death and hope over strife and harmony over hatred.

That's what we want. We want it to be that way. Because together, we're going to forge a magnificent, great and enduring peace.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: All right, let's get off the sidelines, head into THE ARENA. My panel is here.

We also have CNN's Clarissa Ward in Israel and CNN's Nic Robertson on the ground in Egypt.

Clarissa, let me start with you. You spent much of the day at what's become known as Hostages Square in Tel Aviv.

What did you see? And, you know, we watched a little bit of the joy for some of these families, but talk about what they're feeling right now.

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we saw people who had started arriving, Kasie, at 4:00 or 5:00 in the morning. Tens of thousands of them. Many of them, people, Israelis who had been coming to Hostages Square every single week for more than two years, demanding that all actions be taken to bring them home. Many of them were either friends of hostages or friends of friends of hostages. This is a small country. There is a tight sense, tight knit sense of

community. And for the people that we saw in that square, it was just so very important to be there, to bear witness, to welcome them home to celebrate and also to grieve.

Early on in the day, I would say the atmosphere was quite subdued. People were taking a moment to reflect.

[16:05:00]

We saw a lot of tears. We saw a lot of prayers. And then as the exchange got underway and those last final 20 living Israeli hostages finally made their way out of Gaza, back into Israel, you saw the crowd erupting into applause and cheers and a lot of cheering as well. I should say, for President Donald Trump, there were posters all around hostages square celebrating his role in all of this.

And to the people of Israel, he really is seen as being the integral force that kind of pushed this thing over the finish line. And so for many here, I think the overwhelming sense watching those reunion videos, which you just played, some of which are incredibly moving to watch, there is a sense of kind of turning a page or closing a chapter on a very dark two year period, but obviously for people in Gaza, it is a very different story. And we saw them as well waiting, 1,700 detainees held by Israel without charge throughout the war. They were crammed onto busses, released to the Nasser hospital in Khan Younis, one man who hadn't realized until the moment he was released that his wife and daughters had been killed in an airstrike.

And so, you just have a sense of the scale of the pain, the grief, the loss and also the enormity that now lies ahead in terms of particularly with regards to Gaza rebuilding, ensuring that the security situation, does not become chaotic and kinetic once again. And of course, getting that desperately needed massive surge into one of the worst humanitarian crises we have seen in recent history, Kasie.

HUNT: It's really remarkable.

And, Nic Robertson, you're in Sharm el-Sheikh, Egypt, for us. And that is, of course, where this deal was signed. We still haven't seen the exact contents of what it is. Can you walk through what we do know and underscore the significance of this moment?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yeah. It is -- it is a significant moment. And President Trump was surrounded when he was signing this document by the mediators, by the president of Turkey, the president of Egypt, the emir of Qatar. They were all there signing this document. But as you rightly say, we don't know what was in that document. We don't know how the momentum and the spirit of this sort of hugely successful day of hostage release, prisoner release, ceasefire in place, how this translates going forward.

Everyone said, let's look at the momentum here from phase one and push that into phase two. But you looked at the faces of some of the leaders standing behind President Trump while he was while he was there giving his speech. You know, you had the Greek prime minister, Mitsotakis, you had Giorgia Meloni, the Italian prime minister, next to him. You had Nawaz Sharif, the Pakistani prime minister, next to him, Keir Starmer, the British prime minister, next to him, Mark Carney.

All these leaders had gone there to look for that momentum and to get some answers about how the situation moves forward. President Trump spoke about the money coming from some of the sort of Gulf partners and some of those others there to pay for the rebuilding, but what he didn't get into is the thorny issue of things like the international stabilization force, how many troops it was talked about, maybe 20,000 or 40,000, but it's unclear which countries they come from. What their mandate will be. Will they have the support and backing of the U.N.? All of these questions.

And our Becky Anderson sat down with Egypt's foreign minister before the summit began and he said, look, one of the key issues for us is that there are actually U.S. troops inside of Gaza. This is how he explained it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BADR ABDELATTY, EGYPTIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: We need American boots on the ground. The troops, in order --

BECKY ANDERSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: In Gaza?

ABDELATTY: Yeah. Why not? I mean, and that's very important in order to have --

ANDERSON: You got commitment from Donald Trump for American boots on the ground in Gaza?

ABDELATTY: We are in this process. We are talking and also, of course, we have to identify the nature of this forces, you know, is it peace enforcing or peacekeeping?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTSON: And that's the big question here, peace enforcing or peacekeeping. What are their rules of engagement? If they see someone with -- someone with a gun, do they -- are they able to shoot at them? Are they only able to shoot if they're shot at, or do they just have to run and hide if they're shot at?

And remember, the onus is on that international stabilizing force to disarm Hamas.

[16:10:00]

Hamas doesn't want to disarm. We didn't get any sense of the detail of that today. And that was clearly a core issue for the host nation here. That's what the foreign minister said. What are the rules of engagement going to be for these troops? A prime question for any country sending its young soldiers potentially into harm's way, Kasie.

HUNT: Yeah, a lot of -- a lot of questions just raised there. Nic Robertson, Clarissa Ward, thank you both very much for your reporting.

Our panel is here in THE ARENA. A veteran of national security official for four presidential administrations and someone who helped negotiate the last Middle East hostage deal, Ambassador Brett McGurk is with us. Longtime foreign affairs Middle East Journalist Kim Dozier is here. Both of you, CNN global affairs analyst.

Also here, former communications director for then-Vice President Kamala Harris, Jamal Simmons and CNN senior political commentator Scott Jennings.

Welcome to all of you. Thank you very much for being here.

Brett, I want to start with you. I mean, you heard all the questions raised about what could be in this deal. Quite a claim, by the way, from the Egyptian foreign minister, that there might be American boots on the ground in Gaza. But you've been at these tables. You have a unique understanding of the way that this particular deal is different from those that have come before. Can you walk us through that?

BRETT MCGURK, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: I've been reflecting a lot today, Kasie. It's extraordinary day. It's a day of humanity and hopefully peace can come from this.

But let me -- I've been going back to October 7th, and one of the first phone calls from Prime Minister Netanyahu. And he said after the worst day for Jews since the Holocaust, he said in the Middle East, said this to Joe Biden, Joe, if you're weak, you're roadkill, and our enemies think were weak. And I tell you what, Hezbollah, Iran, all the enemies of Israel decided to join in this multifront war against Israel. And that's what happened.

And here we are two years later. And I don't think this deal could have come together without what's happened over the last, really, the last 10 months. The war in Iran, 12-day war in Iran in June was a strategic balance of power shifter in the region. That is going to play out, I think for decades. Hezbollah being knocked out in Lebanon, the fall of the Assad regime, all significant, like the whole balance of power, has shifted. And --

HUNT: And all the propulsion on all of those things, you know, coming from the Israelis.

MCGURK: With U.S. support.

HUNT: U.S. backing.

MCGURK: And helping to defeat largest air attacks in history, from Iran to Israel. Last year, I was a part of all that. But then you had the degradation of Hamas and the leadership, Mohamed Sinwar and Yahya Sinwar. I don't want to take away from the humanity, the human toll of this awful conflict.

But when you look ahead here, the balance of power in the Middle East has changed in fundamental ways. And I do think that opens up the possibility for a real change in the region. I would see it just real quick, inside out and outside in, inside out is what you just said.

You need an interim security force in Gaza. You have to build a coalition. That's hard. You need the reconstruction plan. That's all really difficult. You got to do the hard work.

But outside in is the expansion of the Abraham accords. And I think that agenda is now back, front and center. It's not going to happen right away. But over the course of President Trump's term here, over the next couple of years, Israel will have an election next year, probably a new government.

I think that expansion of the Abraham Accords is going to happen because power counts in this region. Israel is powerful and President Trump just got all those countries together in Egypt. That is not insignificant.

And so, I'm kind of watching for that inside out hard work. Yeah. You got to reconstruct Gaza interim security force. Extremely difficult. I know about building coalitions, but that outside in expansion of the Abraham Accords, you watch countries like Indonesia. I mean, I think that's kind of really back on the agenda.

HUNT: You're talking about outside in and power inside the region. And that's clear -- clearly, what Benjamin Netanyahu, for example, its front and center for him. How do you see Israels broader standing on the world stage with Western powers, with Europe? Does that matter at all in this context or not?

MCGURK: I mean, Trump, President Trump has spoken to -- he's right. He's like, hey, you can't be totally isolated in the world. This war is taking an increasing toll on Israel. It's time. It's time to end it.

But it's time to end it on terms that Israel can feel secure and its security. And I thought the speech President Trump made in the Knesset was basically a victory speech. And it allows the Israelis now, after this trauma of two years, to actually say, okay, let's reunify. We don't -- we've kind of defeated our enemies and let's -- and then President Trump is kind of pulling them over that bridge from war to peace.

I mean, that's -- this is going to be extremely hard in the Middle East. It's going to be difficult, hard. There's so many spoilers. Iran is still there, but it's a huge change and a huge opportunity. I don't want to understate it.

But you've got to stay at it. You've got to keep at it. U.S. leadership -- there's nothing like U.S. presidential leadership. And we saw that today. And I -- you know, there's a reason to be hopeful today.

HUNT: So there's the optimistic view.

KIM DOZIER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Yes.

HUNT: Kim Dozier, you have seen this. You have covered this movie before.

DOZIER: Yes.

HUNT: As a reporter.

DOZIER: Yeah.

HUNT: What are the potential places where this falls apart?

DOZIER: Well, essentially what the leaders signed in Sharm el-Sheikh is a promissory note that neither sides in the conflict have signed on to.

[16:15:01]

Hamas hasn't agreed to disarm, and it's been actively fighting any threats to its power as the IDF withdraws and you have members of Netanyahu's coalition saying that if Hamas doesn't disarm, they will never agree to withdraw from Gaza. So, right now, you have the Israeli Defense Forces in a little over 50 percent of Gaza. It's hard to see situations on the ground being safe enough for them to withdraw further, for the Israelis to feel safe enough to withdraw.

I also have trouble seeing, Gulf nations risking their soldiers to go into the Hamas area to wrest power back by force. I don't see them risking their lives like that.

So, for the Israelis, this is a great day. For the Palestinians, they probably look forward to something like what Lebanese people are facing right now. There have been more than 500 strikes by Israel on Hezbollah targets inside Lebanon after they reached their peace deal, right. Probably we're going to see the same in Gaza.

HUNT: We will see.

Okay. So, politically, Scott Jennings, I know you of course, traveled recently to Israel. You have really made the release of the hostages a central focus. There was this scene, if we -- if we could play what we saw in Hostages Square with the crowd chanting and they're saying essentially, "Thank you, Trump". Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CROWD: Thank you, Trump! Thank you, Trump! Thank you, Trump!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Remarkable moment for the president.

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I mean, as an American, my heart couldn't be more full. I mean, the United States of America today and its president, Donald Trump, is at the forefront of the most important thing going on in this world, the release of these hostages and the possibility of a standing peace in the Middle East, where there simply just hasn't been any. And so, as an American, the fact that we're leading this effort, that

we're leading this coalition, that the president was able to bring the Arab states together to get Netanyahu and that relationship, they have, in line enough, to pull this off. I mean, it makes my heart so full that this is the power of the United States of America. This is what makes us the most unique country in the most important superpower in the world.

I've had a range of emotions today because, as you know, I care deeply about these hostages. I could watch those videos all day and I have been watching them all day.

I am still very sad for the 24 families for whom this is not over. Hamas has not produced the remains yet of I think 24 people that we're hoping come out soon.

But I interviewed a lady on my radio show today, Yael Barter (ph), who was in Hostage Square, and she was a counselor to some of the hostage families. She was at that rally, and she told me today, the unbelievable support for Donald Trump and for the American people. You could feel it in the air. It was palpable. The appreciation that those Israelis have for Trump and for the United States of America. And if that doesn't make you feel patriotic about your own country, then I don't know what to say. It makes me feel great as an American that we are leading an effort for peace and prosperity in a region that has struggled with it.

HUNT: Jamal, there have obviously been a lot of critics on the left of this war, people who have defended, obviously, the people of Gaza and the enormous suffering that they have been through. What is the view right now on the role President Trump has played in ending that?

JAMAL SIMMONS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think what the images you showed are absolutely profound. When you see these families that are embracing people that they haven't seen for two years, it's hard to see it and not feel emotionally connected to it. You said earlier, it's hard to watch these. The Palestinians who are going to be given a chance at some sort of self-determination, given a chance of being able to have a country that they can have future for their children. So many families who haven't had food to feed their children in the future.

I want to see all those families, all those kids have a great a great life ahead of them. Listen, Donald Trump deserves credit for today because today wouldn't have happened without him. And so, he deserves credit for getting the ceasefire in place and getting these families returned together.

The question becomes, now what? Kim asked, the question becomes now is what happens next? You know, Joe Biden deserves credit for the 100, 130 hostages that he got released. So, the question becomes, now what happens next? And can we have an enduring cease fire where these families all do get to have security in Israel and self-determine -- self-determination for these young kids in Gaza and the West Bank?

HUNT: Fair enough. All right. Brett McGurk, Kim Dozier, thank you both very much for

being here. Really appreciate your expertise.

[16:20:02]

All right. Coming up next here, exclusive CNN reporting on a jolt inside the DOJ office that's been handling the cases against James Comey and Letitia James as prosecutors work to finalize a potential indictment against one of the presidents former aides.

Plus, what former President Obama is now saying about the current president and some of his most direct comments to date and his advice to Democrats ahead of next year's midterms.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: You can't constantly lecture people without acknowledging that you've got some blind spots, too, and that life's messy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:25:04]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE WITKOFF, SPECIAL ENVOY TO THE MIDDLE EAST: We're dug in. We'll be here quite a bit. That's at the direction of the president. That's probably going to be one of the most important phases here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: He's one of the most active and seemingly most critical negotiators of the Israel and Hamas peace deal, U.S. special envoy Steve Witkoff promising today to start work on the, quote, implementation side of the deal almost immediately.

Joining us now to discuss what that might look like is CNN military analyst, retired Admiral James Stavridis, the former NATO supreme allied commander.

Sir, always great to see you. Thank you for being here.

Let's -- let's start there. Right. I mean, the hard part. Theres a lot of celebration today, but the hard part also starts today, right? Figuring out how to rebuild Gaza, do all of these things.

What do you think the biggest potential pitfalls are?

ADMIRAL JAMES STAVRIDIS (RET.), CNN SENIOR MILITARY ANALYST: When I was supreme allied commander of NATO, one of my additional duties was U.S. Israeli military to military cooperation. So I was constantly in Israel, worked with the very senior leadership, President Shimon Peres. At one point, Kasie, I asked Henry Kissinger, who was a mentor to me, hey, what should I bear in mind about the Middle East? Here's what Kissinger said. Remember this line? He said in the Middle East? Every solution is merely a key to the next problem. That's a pretty good comment to bear in mind.

So, I, for one, was very happy to hear Mr. Witkoff, who gets, I think, a ton of credit alongside the president and Jared Kushner for a wonderful day to but we have to stay dug in. I got two words for you: attention span. Are we going to stay focused on this area to get to the peacekeeping force, to get to the disarmament, to decommission the tunnel complexes? Boy, is there a lot of work to do.

HUNT: A lot of work, indeed. And, Admiral, one of the things we played earlier was this interview that the Egyptian foreign minister did with Becky Anderson, CNN international anchor, and he suggested, he said, quote, we need American boots on the ground. She asked in Gaza and he says, yeah, why not? It's very important. She asked, did you get a commitment from the president for that? And he says that we are in the process.

Do you think it's a possibility that we see American boots on the ground in Gaza?

STAVRIDIS: I think anything is a possibility these days. And if you'd asked me six months ago, are we going to attack the Iranian nuclear facilities with bunker busting bombs? Are we going to see these hostages come home alive? This number of them would have been hard to believe in that.

Here's my take. Lets' start -- you know, the admiral is going to say this. Let's start from the sea. Get a get a carrier strike group off the coast. Get a marine corps expeditionary unit. Use those platforms. Those helicopters tried to do this without putting American boots on the ground in Gaza. Be the backbone for the force, the intelligence, the logistics.

I think that's the role you want to see the U.S. military play here. Putting our boots on the ground, that's going to take a pretty aggressive posture from the administration that I'm not certain they're ready to move on.

HUNT: Fair enough. All right. Admiral James Stavridis bringing a little Henry Kissinger into the chat -- always, always fascinating.

Thank you, sir, very much for your expertise. Hope to see you soon.

STAVRIDIS: Thanks, Kasie.

HUNT: All right. Coming up next here, reporting you'll only see here on CNN. Inside the latest shakeup at the DOJ office handling the cases against James Comey and Letitia James.

But first, new comments from former President Barack Obama, who he's criticizing for not standing up to the White House and what he says is the latest test for our country. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: A lot of the norms, civic habits, expectations, institutional guardrails that we had that we took for granted for our democracy have been weakened, deliberately.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:33:53]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRISTEN WELKER, NBC ANCHOR: Are you seriously considering invoking the Insurrection Act?

J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, the president is looking at all of his options. Right now, he hasn't felt he needed to. But we have to remember, why are we talking about this, Kristen? Because crime has gotten out of control in our cities.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Vice President J.D. Vance signaling over the weekend that the president was not opposed to invoking the Insurrection Act in his effort to deploy the U.S. military in American cities for law enforcement purposes.

Former President Barack Obama, weighing in today. He had a warning about what he believes would be the broader consequences of that action.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: When you have military that can direct force against their own people, that is -- that is inherently corrupting. When you have what looks like a deliberate end run around, not just a concept, but a law that's been around for a long time, Posse Comitatus, that says, you know, you don't use our military on domestic soil unless there is an extraordinary emergency of some sort that when you see an administration suggest that ordinary street crime is an insurrection or --

HOST: Or terrorist acts.

OBAMA: -- or a terrorist act. Yeah, that is a genuine effort to weaken how we have understood democracy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: All right. Joining us now in THE ARENA, CNN legal analyst Elliot Williams and CNN chief national affairs correspondent Jeff Zeleny are here. Scott and Jamal remain with us as well.

The text chain is also joining us there on the left side of your screen. They're going to have additional analysis for you while we continue to chat here.

Jeff Zeleny, you covered Obama's entire campaign, right? And I'm struck by the contrast of the candidate that we saw in 2008 and the energy there and sort of the laconic, stylings of the former -- now former president and the way he is coming across. He has not said a lot. That was more than really he has said in the past about the country, the president, and what he clearly seems to think is a slide toward authoritarianism.

What do you make of his decision to kind of enter the chat in this way, so to speak, and the message that he has?

JEFF ZELENY, CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Look, he's been doing it with increasing frequency after being relatively silent. Throughout much of the first Trump administration, obviously, during the Biden years. It was a little awkward for him to speak out. He's been speaking out much more this year, I think, than he probably has over the last almost eight years combined.

Look, he came across as more professorial. The professorial Barack Obama, the -- a little bit above it, taking a look at it.

What I was most struck by was his sort of admonition to progressives. And that reminds me of something that we heard from him, actually pretty frequently. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. He said this, he said, I'd say, you can't just be a scold all the time. And he said, progressives have a holier than thou superiority.

So yes, he has some strong words to say for President Trump in the state in which the country finds itself, but also a little bit of tough medicine for Democrats and progressives as well. So, I thought that was sort of -- that's probably his biggest contribution to the chat, if you will, as Democrats try and rebuild themselves and rebuild their party out of the wilderness. His -- he's trying to be pretty, you know, trying to put his thumb on the scale in terms of the direction of the party.

HUNT: Is he right, Jamal?

SIMMONS: Well, first of all, I think he's back in his office. What's with the muted tan tones? The Oval Office look that way.

HUNT: I mean, it's --

SIMMONS: I never liked it.

HUNT: -- a suit became a room.

SIMMONS: I never liked it.

Listen, he is -- he is saying what is on a lot of people's minds about getting out there and talking about the creeping authoritarianism that people feel is happening in the country. You know, one thing about Barack Obama today is that he has a lot more freedom to be able to speak out. You know, he's a president, so he has immunity. So, Donald Trump can't attack Barack Obama with his legal forces the

way he's doing with other political opponents. That's not insignificant. And so, the president, I think, has to step up and speak out in a way that maybe some other Democrats won't be able to.

But I did learn this when I worked for Bill Clinton as a kid, which is it takes a horse to beat a horse. And I think this is what Barack Obama is talking about. Put your own ideas on the track, get them out there. Let people judge them versus Donald Trump's not just be a scold about how bad Trump is.

HUNT: Scott?

JENNINGS: Yeah. I mean, I -- he's been the most hyper political and hyper partisan post president we've ever had. He's still acting that way. They're not over the fact that Donald Trump won the national popular vote last year, and they keep warning about the same things that they were warning and fussing about during the campaign, to which the American people then responded to.

I think Donald Trump is executing every part of his agenda, and almost exactly the way that he promised he was going to up to and including enforcing laws in the United States that have been on the books for a very, very long time, that his predecessor chose simply not to execute. You throw that on top of the fact that he's having this extraordinary success on the world stage.

And I just think Democrats from Obama on down are having a heck of a time understanding where they went wrong and how Donald Trump has captivated a nation. And now the entire world.

HUNT: Elliot, how do you see this from a legal perspective?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I think there's no doubt that authoritarian -- authoritarianism is on the rise around the globe, just look at the kinds of folks who have taken power in the last. decade, from Belarus to El Salvador, Bukele, and Viktor Orban and Hungary, and on and on and on. They are -- they also happen to be often folks that the president speaks about favorably. That's a fact. That's not a criticism of Donald Trump.

And I just think the kinds of things that have made those men so powerful, the kinds of things we ought to be careful about embracing here in the United States, like firing prosecutors and some of the other acts that might seem good and might seem wonderful on a gut level to many people, but are profoundly dangerous for the rule of law in the country.

[16:40:18]

And I just think when you when you strip down the politics out of Obama's statements like he's not making an untrue point about authoritarianism around the world and what we ought to be cautious of in the United States.

HUNT: Yeah. So, speaking of this, I want to play a little bit of what the former president put out. That was -- we saw him on a on a podcast that was released in the last day or so. This was at the Obama Foundation or for the Obama Foundation over the weekend. On Saturday, where he's talking about how basically the United States isn't immune, even though perhaps many people in the United States thought that the U.S. was immune.

Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: Like many of you, I've become increasingly concerned about the rising wave of authoritarianism sweeping the globe. We're seeing politicians target civil society, undermine freedom of the press, weaponize the justice system, and no one is being spared. Even countries that thought they were immune from wholesale assaults on democracy now understand we're all part of this struggle.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: I will admit, Jeff, to being slightly distracted by the soundtrack from the point that the former president is making. But basically, I mean, and I remember thinking this too, or I should say, if you covered Capitol Hill before January 6th, right? There was a sense from so many lawmakers in both parties, but with, you know, certainly with Republicans, that something like what then happened on January 6th couldn't happen here. He seems to be saying broadly that the world is different now, and that the things that we have seen happen in countries that have ended up with authoritarian regimes, that it could happen in the United States.

ZELENY: Look, I mean, I think this is very much a post-January 6 conversation, obviously, and I think that he is talking about -- he's been giving a lot of speeches to civic groups and younger groups as well about sort of the rightward shift.

And one question I have, he doesn't do many interviews. He does the podcast and things like he does, mainly friendly interviews. To what degree does he sort. Of hold himself responsible or what is the reaction to his presidency with the rise of Donald Trump? I saw that that Kristen Soltis Anderson was asking that question in a chat on the side there.

And that is such a central question here because it's interwoven. It's absolutely interwoven. The rise of Donald Trump, obviously started during the Obama presidency, and it has certainly continued since then. So those two men are interwoven in American history in a way that I can't think of any presidents that necessarily are. Of course, Obama was a correction to Bush, if you will, on the Iraq war and other things. But the Trump-Obama sort of --

JENNINGS: Yeah, Obama.

ZELENY: -- relationship is interesting.

JENNINGS: I think you're exactly right. I mean, Obama's presidency delivered Trump and then Biden's presidency delivered Trump stronger than ever. So that Obama, Biden political era -- I mean, the net result of it is, is that Donald Trump is now one of the strongest presidents in the modern American political era. That is the net result.

(CROSSTALK)

SIMMONS: Kasie, as we think about as we think about democracies, one thing that is good for democracies are stable, vibrant middle classes. And people sort of having aspirational ability to move up. And I think one thing that's happened since the financial collapse of 2009, 2010 is people have lost that faith that that's going to happen.

I think that is not something we can ignore. As we look at the rise of the sort of authoritarian, strong, excuse me, strong man government around the world.

HUNT: Yeah, for sure.

All right. Jeff Zeleny, thank you. Always grateful to have you.

ZELENY: Good to see you. Thanks to our text chain as well.

The rest of our panel is going to stand by.

Up next, exclusive CNN reporting on a major exit of a top DOJ lawyer and how it could impact the cases of two people that the president has pushed to prosecute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:48:31]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LINDSEY HALLIGAN, FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: It's up to the sitting president to ensure that our criminal system does not unravel into retaliatory or political prosecutions of former presidents and other government officials.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: That was Lindsey Halligan speaking after the FBI had executed a search warrant at Mar-a-Lago in 2022.

She is now the newly appointed top federal prosecutor in that powerful Virginia office that under her leadership, is now prosecuting the former FBI director, James Comey and New York Attorney General Letitia James.

And today, there's new CNN reporting that Halligan's focus is both internal as well as external. Our sources saying that Halligan's number two, Maggie Cleary, has been abruptly removed as a senior prosecutor just after being appointed last month. It all comes as federal prosecutors in Maryland met this weekend to finalize the details of a potential indictment against Trump's former national security advisor, John Bolton. CNN crime and justice correspondent Katelyn Polantz joins us now in

THE ARENA. This is her exclusive reporting.

Katelyn, wonderful to see you.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Good to see you.

HUNT: What else do we know here?

POLANTZ: Well, let's talk about Virginia. So that's where Lindsey Halligan is the acting or interim U.S. attorney. The person that Donald Trump sent there right before she herself walked into the grand jury to present the Comey case, and then also secured the case against Letitia James.

This is a prosecutor asserting her authority over an office that has a lot of very experienced and career people. We had seen a couple of firings of longtime prosecutors in that office. We saw Comey's son-in- law, who was a prosecutor, resign.

And then now the woman who was briefly the interim U.S. attorney and a woman named Maggie Cleary, who actually hasn't been in that office that long, only a couple of weeks. However, she was the first assistant to Halligan, and she has a lot more trial experience than Halligan. She's been removed out of the Eastern District of Virginia, and so Lindsey Halligan now has a very different regime that she's able to assert herself over as she's the prosecutor in eastern district of Virginia.

And one of the things that came out as Kristen Holmes and I were reporting this is that this is one of those moments where there's a dramatic exodus happening within the Justice Department where people who may have any sort of dissension or any sort of hesitation about wanting to carry forward cases Donald Trump wants. Those people are being sidelined or resigning or being fired.

Maggie Cleary is the latest in that group of people.

And one thing to note about Halligan that's pretty important is that her authority right now is going to be strongly questioned. There's a question of whether she can be serving in that role, something that Jim Comey and his case and his lawyers have already said. They're going to challenge it. And challenges like that have been successful in other jurisdictions.

HUNT: Elliot?

WILLIAMS: You know, I want to pick up on one sentence or one clause that Katelyn had said, which is that there have been, quote, a couple firings of longtime prosecutors. That is profound and remarkable. It simply does not happen in U.S. attorney's offices.

And let's talk through specifically some of the ones that have happened. So, Erik Siebert was the U.S. attorney, as Katelyn had noted, had expressed misgivings about the case. He's now gone. Ms. Cleary, who also would sign with prosecutors coming out of

Republican administration. She was a senior level state prosecutor, I believe, you know, under the attorney general, Jason Miyares, and also under the governor also fired when she expressed misgivings about the case. Two senior prosecutors along the way also had expressed misgivings about the case and got fired.

Look, I understand that these are workplaces, and people come and go, but we just did a block on authoritarianism and the kinds of things that are intensely problematic when they happen in prosecutors' offices, because people are expressing concerns about.

POLANTZ: Yeah, the quiet part is getting said out loud to as one of those people was fired, he taped on his door. The note that said Justice Department leadership is more concerned with punishing the presidents perceived enemies than they are with protecting our national security. So they're saying it inside.

SIMMONS: I kind of wondered, does that help someone's case when they go before a judge?

WILLIAMS: No, no.

SIMMONS: No, no. But if you're the -- if you're the defendant, if you're Letitia James or if you're Comey and you go before a judge does that, does that help your case to say these firings have occurred and people are being are claiming that its political.?

WILLIAMS: When you move to dismiss the case on the basis of selective prosecution, you can say, look, everybody in the office -- it's been widely reported -- everybody in the office has expressed misgivings about political prosecutions, somehow ends up losing their job. You know, I'll teach you a term that you can use to dazzle at cocktail parties, Jamal, but speak about what's called the presumption of regularity. I was hoping you look at that.

(LAUGHTER)

HUNT: I don't know what kind of cocktail party lawyers like to hang out with.

WILLIAMS: There's a concept in the law that the government is believed to be acting in good faith in -- when it engages with the court, they are losing that. And courts are beginning to say, we do not trust what comes out of the Justice Department because of the news that we are reading about what's being happening to career prosecutors there.

Again, people are free to leave. They're free to go to the private sector and do whatever they want with their careers. But that's not I think a little more is happening there, and there's plenty of evidence to suggest that something intensely problematic happening.

HUNT: All right. So, one of the other people that the president has often expressed irritation about, to put it relatively mildly, is John Bolton, his former national security advisor. And we have been reporting that this indictment for him is under review. Now, I would like to talk a little bit about why this may be different

from James Comey and Letitia James. But first, let's watch the things that Donald Trump has said about John Bolton in the time since John Bolton worked for him. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I'm not a fan of John Bolton. I thought he was a sleazebag.

A lowlife.

That John Bolton who was so stupid.

He was a maniac.

He wants to kill people.

Bolton, a real dope. He was a nut job and everybody -- I could see his face get red, red, red with that stupid white mustache and he'd be ready to explode.

He released massive amounts of classified -- and confidential, but classified information. That's illegal. And you go to jail for that.

He's a criminal, and I believe, frankly, he should go to jail for that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[16:55:00]

HUNT: So, Scott Jennings, briefly, I mean, what's going on with John Bolton? It started under Joe Biden.

JENNINGS: Yeah.

HUNT: Right? So do you see this as aligned with -- I mean, you have said on this panel, right. The president is very open about his intentions and the people that he wants to go after. Is Bolton in that same group or not?

JENNINGS: Well, I think because -- I think because the investigation started under Joe Biden, it's hard to ascribe it to some vendetta campaign. And, you know, if what I read in the press is correct and there was classified material and that's been shown to a grand jury that he had it -- you know, I mean, again, I ask it the same thing about all these cases. Did they actually do it? Some of them may have.

HUNT: Fair enough.

Emily is yelling at me.

Elliot, I'm sorry. We have to --

WILLIAMS: I agree with you, Scott.

HUNT: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HUNT: All right. Thanks for being with us in THE ARENA.

Phil Mattingly is standing by for "THE LEAD".

Hi, Phil.