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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt
White House East Wing Now Mostly Demolished; Bessent: "Substantial Pickup In Russia Sanctions Coming; Now: Republicans Enact GOP-Favorable Map In Another State. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired October 22, 2025 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: -- as we go forward.
[16:00:02]
OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN HOST: Yeah. That's all we got.
Good to see you, Brianna, as always for everyone else.
KEILAR: Good to see you.
JIMENEZ: For everyone else, THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT starts right now.
(MUSIC)
KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Hey, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. Welcome to THE ARENA. It's wonderful to have you with us on this Wednesday.
As we come on the air, we're following growing questions, growing outrage, frankly, over what's probably best described as extreme home makeover, White House edition.
New video coming in to CNN today showing what was the East Wing of the White House. The facade now barely recognizable as construction crews expand their operations to build President Trump's $200 million ballroom. Those images now splashed on the front page of the country's major newspapers today.
"The Washington Post," they obtained the first pictures and they had this headline, quote, "Cries of overreach as East Wing decimated further."
And "The New York Times" being more pointed, saying, quote, "Rubble, it's a presidential dream being realized."
The White House today brushing aside any concerns.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I believe there's a lot of fake outrage right now, because nearly every single president who has lived in this beautiful White House behind me has made modernizations and renovations of their own. (END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: So while the White House says the outrage is fake, the demolition construction, upgrades, however you want to characterize it, they're very real. The question also very real. Among them, who's paying for it? President has said as recently as Tuesday that this $200 million project is fully paid for by private donors, including himself. Some of those names have been released, but the White House has still not put out a comprehensive list or breakdown of the donations.
And just about 24 hours ago, when news broke that the president was seeking a settlement from the Justice Department over past investigations into him, he suggested maybe that money, taxpayer money, could foot the bill.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If I get money from our country, I'll do something nice with it. Like give it to charity or give it to the White House while we restore the White House. And we're doing a great job on the White House. As you know, the ballroom is under construction.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: So there's an element to this mansion makeover that we're seeing. Unity Democrats mostly outraged.
And Republicans, for the most part taking a different approach.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: What about just uprooting the -- this is an iconic building.
SEN. JOSH HAWLEY (R-MO): Manu, I will just say this. I made this point yesterday that I hear, all of a sudden, from my liberal friends that they're very concerned about our history. Really, these are the same people who tore down every statue they could get their hands on in the last four years -- Christopher Columbus, Thomas Jefferson, Theodore Roosevelt. They didn't have any concern for history then.
Now, all of a sudden, they're like, oh, the facade of the East Wing is iconic. Oh, give me a break. I mean, give me a break.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: All right. Let's get off the sidelines, head into THE ARENA. My panel is here.
CNN legal analyst Elliot Williams, Republican strategist and pollster Kristen Soltis Anderson, former Democratic congressman of South Carolina, Joe Cunningham, and Republican strategist, former Trump campaign adviser David Urban. We're also joined by the author and journalist Kate Andersen Brower.
She's written several "New York Times" best-selling books about the White House, among other accolades.
On the left side of your screen, we are joined by our ARENA text chain with additional analysis from some of our top reporters and contributors.
And, Kate Andersen Brower, before we dig into the politics of this, I would I wanted to bring you in to give us a sense of what is gone, right? Because we're now understanding that essentially the entire east wing is to be demolished, that that was shown in some of the renderings that the White House had released over the summer. But of course, it was overlooked in many ways because the president had gone out and said, well, it's just going to be nearby. It's not going to be overtaking the East Wing.
If the East Wing is gone, what does that mean? What has gone with it?
KATE ANDERSEN BROWER, JOURNALIST & AUTHOR, "EXPLORING THE WHITE HOUSE": Well, it will mean the first lady will have no place to work. Her staff will have no place to work inside the White House itself. They'll be probably working in the Eisenhower Executive Office Building.
But it's heartbreaking, I think, to see those images of the East Wing being demolished because it is so symbolic of the president's spouse and the already limited role that a president's spouse has.
The White House is a presidential home. It's not a palace. And so, I think people are up in arms because it's going to be very lopsided to have a 90,000 square foot addition on a 55,000 square foot house.
HUNT: So, it's essentially twice the size or almost twice the size as what will exist there. That's remarkable.
Can you walk us through, I mean, what history was in this part of the building? I mean, when people say that there should have been more input from historians or others, I mean, what's there that's now been destroyed?
BROWER: Well, I mean, it's been where the first lady has worked since 1977. It's where Rosalynn Carter started going to the East Wing every day. Before then, even Eleanor Roosevelt worked from the Residence.
But, you know, when Michelle Obama was first lady, there was a staff of upwards of 20 people there. She and Dr. Biden would go to their offices all the time. I know that I spoke with one of Dr. Biden's aides who said, even after the first Trump term so, so much of the East Wing offices have been given over to the military who had made shifts there.
So, a lot of Dr. Biden's staff already worked in the Eisenhower Executive Office Building, which is difficult when you're trying to write speeches and craft memos. But Teddy Roosevelt created the East Wing and franklin Roosevelt expanded it to cover up and construction of the presidential bunker during World War II.
But it's an important symbolic part of American history. And that is why I think this is -- people are so up in arms seeing it bulldozed like this.
HUNT: Yeah. So, let's talk about this, David Urban. It does seem that while obviously --
DAVID URBAN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Not up in arms.
(LAUGHTER)
HUNT: Karoline Leavitt is out there, you know, saying this outrage is fake. David, they do seem to also be trying to suppress photos of it, right, which seems to suggest that they might know that this doesn't look great.
URBAN: Yeah. I mean, I just like historical note. I think Dr. Jill Biden worked out of the Oval Office. But a -- sorry.
HUNT: Okay.
URBAN: Listen, I think, you know, I'm not privy to what is in -- what they're tearing down or what the -- what the remnants of the -- of the -- of the White House look like on that side. But I had heard people talk about, you know, they don't want to have pictures out to maybe compromise what the windows look like. Some of the security apparatus that's in place at the White House that keeps the president and his family and others at work there safe.
So I can't believe that, you know, they don't -- you know, no one's taking pictures of a lot of stuff, especially around in and around the White House and the inner machinations of the -- if you go up to the windows in the Oval or some of these places, they're really thick, and I'm sure they would take umbrage if you started snapping candids of all of that stuff when you're in there to begin with, let alone from across the street where you're really getting, you know, our adversaries.
HUNT: I mean, in fairness, right now, what they're taking pictures of is not going to be there, you know, in however many months.
URBAN: No, no, it's nothing. And I think. Look, I think the -- this visual is not great, but I'd say let's wait -- let's wait for a few 18 months, 24 months. The new reimagined East Wing may be much better. There may be bigger offices, there may be SCIFs. I don't think it's going to be simply a 90,000 square foot ballroom. You're going to walk in there.
HUNT: Because the president says it's going to be a 90,000 --
URBAN: It's going to be just a giant ballroom. It'd be like a gymnasium. I think there'll be offices. There'll be there'll be, you know, places to work. There'll be -- it perhaps increased space for other people that work in the White House. So, I would say everybody needs to exhale. Let's just wait and see. HUNT: Congressman?
URBAN: Except you.
JOE CUNNINGHAM (D), FORMER SOUTH CAROLINA CONGRESSMAN: Yeah, I exhale. But look, I think the optics are bad in the sense, you know, I know the history is significant. But it's just like your boss and a company going out and buying a new car, a new house while they're doing layoffs within the company, or --
HUNT: So, it's a little bit "let them eat cake".
CUNNINGHAM: Yeah.
HUNT: Is that what you're saying?
CUNNINGHAM: Similar to that. But, yeah, the optics are bad as Americans are struggling to survive and afford health care and all the issues. And meanwhile, the government shut down in this renovation is taking place.
But this shouldn't be the story that Democrats focus on. It should be more of a byline in a larger issue and that, you know, the administration is sending billions of dollars to other governments seeking hundreds of millions of dollars for his own pockets out of the DOJ. The $200 million renovation, you know, all the while, while Americans are suffering.
URBAN: But be fair, just put a big, big note on this, $200 million is donated to the National Park Service, right? It's not going to Donald Trump. It's going to the park service, which is then using the money to do this construction. So, it's not like Donald Trump sitting with a checkbook. And the Trump campaign has a checkbook. Its the people who build monuments, who build these buildings on the Mall are writing the checks and funding this and --
CUNNINGHAM: It should be with some transparency, though.
HUNT: Kate looks like she wants to jump in.
Kate, did you have something on that?
BROWER: Well, I think that ethically it's a little bit of a murky territory because they know when they're giving lots and lots of money, these giant corporations and we know some of the names already, it's got to be to curry favor with the administration.
URBAN: Or they just -- or maybe they just love our country.
BROWER: Okay, I mean --
HUNT: Elliot, jump in.
BROWER: You know, when the when the White House was created, it was created -- it's interesting because George Washington, going way back rejected the idea of a White House rendering that was five times the size of what ended up being built.
[16:10:02]
And because coming on the heels of the revolution, he wanted it to be clear that this was a democracy. This wasn't a monarchy.
And so having an enormous presidential palace, which is what this is going to end up looking like, is just not -- not what the White House stands for, not what this country stands for.
HUNT: Yeah. It's like he wanted to say there would be no king.
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: No king. I agree this is probably not the hill to die on when the government shut down and when people and the, you know, the economy is struggling and so on. But there are a few questions.
And Kate touched on this a little bit in terms of the transparency that I just think as Americans, we're entitled to know when Amazon, Apple and Coinbase are donating up to, I believe, $25 million on a project, I think we as the American people have a right to know how it's being, how much of its being spent, where it's going, and so on, number one.
Number two, did they follow proper permitting procedures? And yes, the president of United States, he can do whatever he wants, but it's also a major piece of construction that we don't really know. How they comported and behaved within the confines of the law and doing it because it all happened really quickly. And the next thing you know, there are bulldozers at the White House, and maybe they did, but certainly the answers out of the White House that that sort of amount to saying your mom, when asked questions about how they're proceeding, they're just sort of leaving some ambiguity about that, too.
And then finally, historic preservation. And this is not fuddy duddy like, oh, we want the buildings to be pretty. No, there are procedures in place when you are changing the facade of a major government building. Did they follow the proper procedure?
HUNT: I mean, try to change the facade on your Capitol Hill rowhouse. Okay?
WILLIAMS: Yes.
HUNT: Or another historic district in like in the District of Columbia? Because let me tell you, they basically won't let you.
WILLIAMS: Yeah.
KRISTEN SOLTIS ANDERSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think to the extent that Democrats make hay over this, if they're making hay over the permitting process or oh, it's so sad that Rosalyn Carter's office is going away, like I will say, that will be handing Republicans a gift on this, that, that that will just be focused in the wrong direction. In all of my polling, I just came out of the field yesterday with
survey, which do you worry about more, pocketbook issues like jobs, cost of living, health care, or broader concerns about democracy, freedoms and how the country is governed and independents by a wide margin care more about the cost-of-living question.
So, I think that are they focused enough on making my life affordable? Is the much more salient criticism than your average American being sad about? What will the White House look like if I ever get --
URBAN: Let's not forget for four years, four years during the Truman administration, four years, Harry Truman gutted the entire inside of the White House.
WILLIAMS: Sure. But I guess the question is if -- and I just answer this question, if bulldozers are knocking down a major piece of the White House. Look, I don't care. I'm sure it will be beautiful when it comes here.
Do we have a right to at least know how and when and why it's happening? I think it's a fair question for people to ask, even if, you know, look --
HUNT: It's supposed to be the -- well, I mean, Nancy Pelosi would say the House of Representatives is the people's house. But to Kate Andersen Brower's earlier point, the idea here was a home for a president, not a palace for a king.
Kate Andersen Brower, thank you very much. I really appreciate your time today. Hope you'll come back.
I also want to thank everyone in THE ARENA text chain. They'll be back later in the show. The rest of the panel is stand by.
Coming up in on THE ARENA, the tattoo that is now the main part of the Maine Senate race.
Plus, lucky seven. The Republicans made today. That's increasing their chances of keeping control of the House.
Plus, why Barack Obama hopped on a Zoom call today with California Governor Gavin Newsom.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D), CALIFORNIA: It's my honor to introduce President Barack Obama.
BARACK OBAMA, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Thanks, Kevin, and thank you, everybody, who is not just on this call, but more importantly, doing the work.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:18:01]
HUNT: All right. We're back now with some breaking news out of the White House. This regards Russia and the war in Ukraine.
CNN's senior White House reporter Kristen Holmes with us now.
Kristen, this coming as the president is meeting is meeting with the head of NATO. What do we know?
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. That's right. So, we have heard now from a White House official who says to expect the president to announce a significant uptick in new sanctions involving Russia. Now, this all stemmed from something we heard the secretary of treasury say almost as an afterthought when he was talking to reporters just moments ago. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT BESSENT, TREASURY SECRETARY: We are going to either announce after the close this afternoon or first thing -- or first thing tomorrow morning, the -- a substantial, pickup in Russia's sanctions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: I can't stress to you how significant this is going to be if this does, in fact, happen. It's something that we've been talking about for nine months. We continue to report out this idea that President Trump has grown frustrated with the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, that he's considering sanctions. And of course, when we talk about sanctions, just to be clear, these are those secondary sanctions. They're almost like tariffs on other countries that purchase goods from Russia, because we just simply don't do much trade with Russia. So, it really wouldn't do anything.
So, this would be those secondary sanctions like we've seen Trump put on India already. But we have again reported this out, only to have President Trump on every occasion walk it back, say now is not the time. Now, of course, this is coming at the same time that we heard president Trump yesterday saying he didn't want to waste his time in a meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin after he spent all of this time kind of celebrating and talking about the fact that he was going to sit down with Putin yet again in Hungary within two weeks.
So clearly, there has been a big shift here. We know that Secretary of State Marco Rubio and the foreign minister of Russia canceled their pre-meeting to the eventual sit down. And now it seems as though they are poised to actually announce these sanctions.
[16:20:03]
HUNT: All right. Kristen Holmes, for us at the White House -- Kristen, thanks very much for that.
All right. Let's turn now to the fight for control of Congress. And should the government ever reopen, its reaching new heights today in North Carolina, where the states Republican controlled legislature gave final approval to a new congressional map meant to help the GOP squeak out an extra house seat ahead of next year's midterm elections. North Carolina is following in the footsteps of Texas and Missouri, becoming the third state where Republicans have followed the president's directive to pursue a mid-decade redistricting effort. Usually, it's every 10 years.
Meanwhile, Democrats are pushing forward with redistricting effort of their own. Former President Barack Obama joining California Governor Gavin Newsom today for a virtual event to promote a measure that would flip as many as five Republican held House seats there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: I could not be more appreciative of the work that Governor Newsom and the people of California are doing, and saying, stop, this is not how American democracy is supposed to operate. And that's what Prop 50 is about. And it has critical implications, not just for California, but for the entire country.
NEWSOM: That's what this is about. The best of Roman republic, Greek democracy, popular sovereignty, this notion of a system of checks and balances, the rule of law, not the rule of Don.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: All right. Joining us now in THE ARENA, CNN's senior political and global affairs commentator, Rahm Emanuel.
Rahm, great to see you as always. I'm this close --
RAHM EMANUEL, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL AND GLOBAL AFFAIRS COMMENTATOR: Very --
(LAUGHTER)
HUNT: That's -- I'm glad we came out of that clip. I'm interested in your reaction to it. The president, the former president and Gavin Newsom, they're trying to basically convince Democrats to do a thing that they've spent decades telling Democrats they shouldn't do this way, right? Like this should be done in this fair, nonpartisan process. It's out of the hands of elected, elected representatives essentially, right?
And now, they're saying, well, no, actually, like we got to play this game. We got to play this game dirtier.
EMANUEL: Well, I don't -- dirtier, I'm not sure I would use that pejorative term or description. I don't think this was the first priority. I think Californias reforms were actually the right thing to do, and other states were following it. But you have to -- you can't unilaterally disarm in the face of what Texas, Missouri, North Carolina are doing.
And I think you pointed out, look, if the president and the Republicans were confident about 2026, they wouldn't be doing this. They're trying to build as big a wall as they can because they see a wave coming that's going to crash into it. So that's fundamental. And I do think California is doing that not intended, but I think it could happen also in Utah, Illinois, they'll look at it.
But let me say step back from this kind of redistricting. One district here, five over here, four over there. Look, if the Republicans decided to do something that nobody's done, which is mid-decade redistricting across the board, they're going to do something else in 2028, something else in 2030.
My own view is, rather than play this zero-sum game, and when you look at the map, Democrats are holding zero and the Republicans got the some part of this effort because you cannot match how many states are House, Senate and governor controlled by Republicans versus Democrats. I think the Democrats should begin to look at state ballot initiatives, getting rid of the primary and go to ranked voting across the board. It would open up a huge amount of districts that would become competitive.
I'm sorry. Go ahead.
HUNT: No, no. It's okay.
Elliot Williams, just in terms of the kind of legal piece of this for, you know, this is this is very much outside the norm. Are there any legal problems, issues at play?
WILLIAMS: It's just going to vary state by state. Different states have different rules governing when they can you know, upend their districting norms mid-cycle, like Texas, as we know well, is probably one of the easiest. And they can just call new elections. Different states work differently.
So, you know, thank Alexander Hamilton and James Madison for coming up with this system that made everybody set up their own voting systems. But that's what we've got now.
HUNT: Rahm, do you think it's the right language for Democrats to use when they're talking about this is that Republicans are trying to rig the system?
EMANUEL: Yeah, because that's exactly what they're trying to do. I think it actually is a fitting description. They would not do this if they were comfortable in giving the voters, a vote in the election. Now, look, part of the problem with redistricting, which is why Californias original system was right, is you had a system in which the elected officials were picking their voters, and voters weren't picking their elected officials.
They led a different type of reform. Now they're trying to rig a system and do something that hadn't been done before, which is mid- century redistricting.
[16:25:01]
So, it's not -- rig may be a little -- quote/unquote, on the harsh side, as somebody who likes harsh, but the fact is they are not confident on this -- on the election.
HUNT: I asked the question because --
EMANUEL: And what they are trying to do is change the rules in the middle of the game.
HUNT: I asked the question because Democrats have spent so much time arguing that, you know, you're undermining people's faith in the system. When you say that it's rigged, right? I mean, that's what Republicans have been doing for so long. Democrats taking a risk with this?
EMANUEL: Well, no, because first of all, I'm not sure people pay attention like the six of us right here pay attention. But they are trying to change a system and change the rules in the middle of the game because they don't like where the outcome is going.
And come this first week of November in New Jersey and Virginia, you're going to find out a lot more about where Democratic energy is, Republican energy is and how independents are splitting. And I think if you look at midterm elections in the middle of a presidency, Democrats are energized. Independents are breaking two to one against the incumbent party.
So, they're trying to rig the system so the voters don't have a referendum on the president and the Republican Party. That is what they're trying to do. And the term fits.
(CROSSTALK)
HUNT: The panel -- the panel here is like very anxious.
(CROSSTALK)
EMANUEL: The panels, Kasie, the panel -- the panel is beginning to sound like an annual Thanksgiving dinner.
(LAUGHTER)
HUNT: Kristen, go ahead.
ANDERSON: So one of the issues that Democrats are going to have operationalizing this is in a place like California. Rahm had nice things to say about the system California already has in place, convincing voters that actually just this one time, we have to not do the thing you voted to do, that we all agree, is the nice way state should do it. And just this one time we need to change it. And I pretty, pretty, pretty please promise we're going to put it all back the way it was after we tell those big, mean Republicans no.
I mean, they still could win this vote in November, but that's a -- that's a harder message to sell to voters.
HUNT: All right. Fair enough. We have to go.
David, I'm sorry. I'll let you get in next. URBAN: Listen, I just once again appreciate Rahm walking back the
language.
HUNT: Fair enough.
Rahm Emanuel, always grateful to have you. Thank you for being.
EMANUEL: Well, that's a rare moment for me.
URBAN: I know. Thats right. I'm giving you the love.
HUNT: All the love right now.
EMANUEL: No, self-awareness.
HUNT: See you soon.
Coming up next here in THE ARENA, Congressman Seth Moulton is here live. His first interview on CNN since he announced he's challenging one of his senators for a seat in that upper chamber.
Plus, how a tattoo during a night of drinking is impacting one Democrat's Senate campaign. The steps he's taking today and the mixed reaction from top party leaders.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): Once again, we are dealing with a collapsing health care system as a result of Trump's policies. Fifty thousand Americans may die unnecessarily every year. And you are asking me about whether or not I should get a tattoo removed? Sorry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:32:16]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is that?
GRAHAM PLATNER (D), MAINE U.S. SENATE CANDIDATE: This?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah. What is it?
PLATNER: Literally nothing. It's just a --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh!
PLATNER: It's a design.
UNIDENTIFEID MALE: Like a possum or --
PLATNER: No. It's supposed to be like a dog.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: That was Graham Platner. He's a Democratic candidate running for U.S. Senate in Maine, debuting the brand new ink that, as of today, has covered up a previous tattoo that resembled a Nazi symbol.
The decision to replace the tattoo coming after this video of the oyster farmer and first-time candidate revealed a skull and crossbones design on his chest that is widely recognized as a Nazi symbol.
Platner, who said he was unaware of the tattoo's Nazi association, explained that it was the result of a drunken night out 18 years ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PLATNER; We went ashore in Split, Croatia. Myself and a few of the other machine gun squad leaders and we got very inebriated and we just -- we did what marines on liberty do, and we decided to go get a tattoo. And we went to a tattoo parlor in Split, Croatia, and we chose a terrifying looking skull and crossbones off the wall because we were marines and, you know, skulls and crossbones are pretty standard military, military thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Platner's explanation seemingly sufficient for Senator Bernie Sanders, who today said he is, quote, absolutely standing by his endorsement of Platner.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Can I ask you about the tattoo.?
SANDERS: Once again, we are dealing with a collapsing health care system. And you were asking me about whether or not a guy should get a tattoo removed? Sorry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: All right. Joining us now in THE ARENA, Democratic congressman from Massachusetts, Seth Moulton. He sits on the House Armed Services Committee, has launched a Senate bid for the seat currently occupied by Democratic Senator Ed Markey.
Congressman, great to see you. Thank you for being here.
REP. SETH MOULTON (D-MA): Good to see you, too.
HUNT: Should Mr. Platner be the next Democratic nominee for Senate in Maine?
MOULTON: He should certainly be in the race. I mean, primaries are good. They're healthy, and he represents a new generation of leadership that's not just cut from the same cloth part of the old playbook that, frankly, hasn't been serving Democrats well. But look, he's made mistakes in his life.
HUNT: You mean the Nazi tattoo?
MOULTON: He's made mistakes in his life. We all have. He deserves an opportunity to explain those mistakes. And he's doing that.
I think another thing is, you know, a lot of people in politics don't answer questions like this. They try to get out of it. They try to blame mistakes on other people. We see Donald Trump do that every single day. I see Graham owning this mistake, correcting it. And you know what? As someone who served in the marines myself, he's far from the first marine I've seen who got a tattoo that he didn't understand.
HUNT: Would you be willing to endorse Mr. Platner in this primary?
MOULTON: I'm certainly considering it. I mean, he's a fellow marine. He represents a new generation of leadership that we desperately need in our party. And I think he's speaking to real concerns, of people across the country, which is why his Senate campaign is attracting attention not just across the state of Maine, but really across America.
HUNT: So, speaking of Senate campaigns and primaries that are perhaps unpopular with the Democratic establishment, I want to talk a little bit about your race in Massachusetts. And whether, let's start with, have you spoken with Joe Kennedy, who, of course, tried to do the similar thing, tried to win this seat and fell in the face of Senator Markey?
MOULTON: Yes. I've spoken with Joe several times. He's a friend. And he's been encouraging. I mean, look, this is a -- this is a different time than when Joe ran five years ago. It's very clear that the establishment is not getting things done, and we just can't wait six years for new leadership in our party.
HUNT: Congressman, if you were elected to the Senate, would you support Chuck Schumer to remain as the majority or the minority leader, the leader of the Democrats in the Senate?
MOULTON: No, I would not. I would not vote for him. I'm not going to run in Massachusetts on new leadership and then go down to Washington and just vote for Chuck Schumer. We clearly need new leadership in our party from top to bottom.
Look, look, the status quo, just protecting the status quo has gotten us to a second term of Donald Trump. And people are getting hurt all across Massachusetts, all across America. We've got to do better as a Democratic Party, and it's time to pass the torch. It's time for a new generation of leadership.
HUNT: Who might you support as leader?
MOULTON: Well, I have a couple of ideas, but I haven't discussed it with them yet. So I'm going to focus right now on winning the support of Massachusetts voters rather than getting ahead of myself here on who I might vote for if I'm fortunate enough to win this race.
HUNT: Do you think that Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez should run in a primary against Chuck Schumer?
MOULTON: I think she should decide that, not me. But I do think that primaries --
(CROSSTALK)
HUNT: -- would you endorse her if she did?
MOULTON: -- for our party. I would certainly consider it. She and I have worked closely on high-speed rail, in particular in the House of Representatives. I have the most ambitious high speed rail program for the entire country, which is an example of the kind of ambitious plans the Democrats need.
You know, everyone in America knows that Democrats are opposed to Donald Trump, but I don't think enough people know what we stand for and what we're going to do and what our plans are for the future. And part of that is because they look at the Democratic Party and they see really calcified leadership that just doesn't look like we are investing in the future.
HUNT: There also today was an announcement from Scott Weiner, a Democratic state senator in California. He's going to run against Nancy Pelosi, who has, of course, held that San Francisco area seat for very many years.
Would you consider endorsing him? Is he doing the right thing?
MOULTON: Sure. I mean, he hasn't reached out to me. I don't know him like I know Alex. But, look, the point is that across the country there are young leaders standing up in our party saying we need to do better. We need to change. The status quo is not working.
And this is a good thing for our party. And when Trump is in charge, it's a good thing for our country that there's this new generation of leaders who want to rise up in our party. And I just wish that our establishment leadership right now would be more welcoming of these challenges. Welcome the debate, rather than trying to, you know, to shut us out.
But that's okay, because you know, that's okay. We're ready to rise up and accept that challenge. I think you're seeing that in a lot of places across America today.
HUNT: All right. Congressman Seth Moulton, always grateful to have you on the show, sir. Thanks very much for coming.
MOULTON: Good to see you, Kasie.
HUNT: All right. Our panel is back with me.
So, David, you're shaking your head.
URBAN: I was going to say -- so I'd like to get Seth Moulton back on and say to him, like, so why do you think -- I know Joe Kennedy. He's a great guy. I'm friendly with him, serve on the board of the Edward Kennedy Institute in Massachusetts.
What does he think he's going to do differently than Joe Kennedy did to convince Massachusetts voters to vote for him? The reason that Joe Kennedy lost is he was too conservative. Joe Kennedy was too mainstream.
This is a state that Elizabeth Warren, you know, controls and runs. It is Bernie Sanders -- Seth Moulton is like a Blue Dog Democrat, and he's going to get smoked in a primary. Newsflash.
CUNNINGHAM: I've got another answer.
[16:40:00]
I think COVID hurt Kennedy tremendously.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
HUNT: Yeah.
CUNNINGHAM: He's incredible person. Great, you know, on the stump, he's going to get out there, though. I mean, COVID just --
URBAN: I think Massachusetts is --
HUNT: Yeah, that's fair enough.
URBAN: -- completely different place. And I think for former marine, it could serve -- a guy who looks like he's a Republican. It's going to have a very tough time unless he spews -- unless he comes out and talking like Zohran Mamdani.
HUNT: I would say, they did at one point elect Scott Brown.
But I do want to turn back to what's going on in Maine and this was a tweet from Amy Walter, okay, who put this up today. Okay. So, with all the information we had about the Senate candidate in Maine, she says here, like Trump, Platner is flawed but authentic. Moreover, Janet Mills -- so Janet Mills is the governor who is now running for Senate in Maine. And her entry did upend all of the sort of predictions about where the race would go.
But Amy says Janet Mills is all that went wrong for Democrats in 2024. Old status quo establishment. How do you see it?
ANDERSON: This feels so much like what Republicans went through in 2010. So for our viewers who don't remember, I have a brief history lesson for you. Republicans come out of the 2008 election. They got smoked by Obama. They're wandering in the wilderness, and this thing called the Tea Party emerges where a lot of right of center voters said, I'm sick of the establishment of my party. I want new faces.
You look at that Senate class of Republicans who are elected in 2010. It's a lot of folks, Mike Lee, Rand Paul, Marco Rubio, names who were not necessarily the favorites of the party establishment, but they won in primaries and they are still serving in government today. They transformed the party.
Now there's a risk with that. Other candidates from the 2010 cycle. Sharron Angle in Nevada. You had Christine O'Donnell famously, "I am not a witch."
Kids, go google it. It's a journey.
HUNT: It's really a sight. It was a great election cycle.
ANDERSON: So, you do -- you do by pursuing that strategy potentially not pick up all the seats you will. But that's the real trade off. Do you get that base energy going and does it actually pay off in some ways?
HUNT: And for -- I'll give you Amy Walter already. Now I'm going to give you -- for every Amy Walter, there's Jonathan Martin who says Democrats keep falling for political fantasies. When will they learn? Democrats keep falling for charismatic newcomers and viral candidates and keep it keeps costing them elections.
That is the alternative view because again, Elliott, we got to go back to the man does have a Nazi -- covered up a Nazi symbol.
WILLIAMS: It's a reminder that I need to get these spider webs tattoos taken off my elbows right now. But no, you know, the one thing that -- you know, and your points are well taken about 2020 and Joe Kennedy and so on post Joe Biden and the idea of someone being president of the United States, who was who was past his prime as a politician.
I think there's something in the water. When Seth Moulton talks about, being the next face, when, the Maine, Graham --
HUNT: Platner, Graham Platner.
WILLIAMS: Right. And I think that is the thing that shakes up this election, you know, back to Massachusetts. Ed Markey, 79 years old, and it's a compelling argument that someone who is 79 is just not fit to be, you know, when the Senate is a gerontocracy as it is, and their average age is about 65 years old right now, they need fresh air.
HUNT: Yeah, and if you compare Democrats and Republicans, actually the Democrats -- haven't done it recently. But for a long time, the Democratic average age was much higher.
WILLIAMS: Yes, it is. And so, I think this whole idea of, yes, Democrats do chase bright, shiny things -- fine. It's a fair point. However, there's something different right now that people think about the ages of these.
CUNNINGHAM: No. I mean, Dems are looking for somebody who's authentic. They're looking for fresh faces. And like Seth said, new leadership, new ideas, candidates you know, can drive at night like they are looking for.
HUNT: Candidates who can drive at night. Okay. That is a new way of putting the bar.
CUNNINGHAM: I mean, very, very bottom.
WILLIAMS: Drive at night, might have a Nazi tattoo, but, you know you know, they are --
CUNNINGHAM: Well, look, he's a perfectly imperfect, right. And folks, like I said, folks looking for fresh voices. Democrats need to come up with ideas, and they got to have the right message, too.
WILLIAMS: Absolutely. I will say this, though, we're -- we all know that in politics, inconsistency is a thing. Everybody changes their views. If there were a Republican who had a Nazi tattoo, or at least a Nazi -- a Nazi curious tattoo, Democrats would be losing their mind over this person.
So, the idea that even relatively moderate Democrats who are running for office are sort of, you know, not distancing themselves from this is really quite remarkable.
URBAN: I can't believe the guys showered every day, gotten out the shower, dried off in front of the mirror and hasn't said, well, that's skull and crossbones there. Looks awfully like SS, maybe I should get.
WILLIAMS: Who among us, you know?
URBAN: Like it's just -- it's a -- that's a part. He's an authentic guy. But that's the part that rings inauthentic to me somehow. He didn't know that it was a symbol of, you know, he's --
CUNNINGHAM: I mean, voters aside, well, not his explanation comes off as authentic and genuine. And that's what people were looking for in Democratic Party. The genuineness, the authenticity.
URBAN: And messaging. You got to have a message on top of it.
ANDERSON: It is true. When you think about the political scandals of 15 years ago, like they are quaint comparisons.
HUNT: Corporations are people. Do you remember that?
[16:45:01]
Okay, ahead in THE ARENA, just hours ahead of the final debate before election day, is Zohran Mamdani borrowing a page from the Trump playbook? New details on his plans for tonight? Plus, why top Republicans are trying to get their own candidate out of the race.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Bill Clinton was abusive to women. Hillary Clinton attacked those same women and attacked them viciously. Four of them are here tonight.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: So that was nine years ago this month. Tonight, at the New York City mayoral debate, Democratic candidate Zohran Mamdani appears to be taking something of a page out of the Donald Trump playbook we saw there.
[16:50:02]
According to his spokesperson, Mamdani will bring ten people to sit in the audience who serve as representation of what he views as Cuomo's failures and use them to attack his chief opponent.
The people set to include a woman who lost her mother in a nursing home during COVID, a hotel worker who has been affected by health care cuts, and a single mother who moved into a homeless shelter after Cuomo cut a rent subsidy program in 2011.
My panel and THE ARENA text chain also back with us for this.
I have to -- I was -- I was covering the debate there and I remember, David, when we learned that this was what Trump was going to do. He was -- he was going to bring these women into this space. And of course, he was debating Hillary Clinton.
That, of course, deeply personal, right?
URBAN: Roger Stone there in the front row.
HUNT: A little bit different here with Mamdani. Although of course, Cuomo was run out of the governor's office because of, you know, people who had accused him of sexual harassment and other issues. What do you make of how Mamdani is taking this on and the overall dynamic?
URBAN: Listen, I think Zohran Mamdani again, I will say, incredible political athlete, right? Gifted campaigner. Order. I saw his ad about the World Cup coming to New York city. Great soccer player. Apparently got good ball handling skills. And he's talking about how New Yorkers aren't going to be able to go see a game because they can't afford it.
The guy is talented. He's a great campaigner. Whether he can govern? To be seen. He's going to be the mayor. He's got to run a city that's really big and dynamic. Can he do it? I don't know, but this is a genius move.
HUNT: The only world where he might have a shot, where Cuomo might have a shot at winning here would be if Curtis Sliwa, the Republican in the race. Remember, this is a three-way race at this moment were to drop out.
Congressman, would you hope that would happen? I mean, do you think that Zohran Mamdani is the good face for Democrats?
CUNNINGHAM: I mean, if you're -- if you're banking on other candidates dropping out, it probably doesn't say too much about the race or the candidacy. You know, I'll agree with you in that Mamdani has diagnosed the right problems, but he's prescribing the wrong medicine.
HUNT: But he's also, as you said earlier, he's authentic. People love that, right? He's authentic, just like you said.
CUNNINGHAM: Not saying I would vote for him, but. But -- and we're light years apart on the policies. But like Trump, he is tapping into the frustration of New Yorkers and Americans at large who are just trying so hard just to survive in the face of rising costs of health care and childcare and rent.
HUNT: Yeah, and he's also kind of changed the way, Kristen, you communicate, right? Like, let's put up we have sort of examples side by side of Mamdani and Cuomo. And the way that they have been trying to talk to voters. And I mean, Cuomo has evolved his social strategy a little bit. I mean, the videos were previously like this.
Now, at least he's, you know, decided to put them vertically. But as you can see, like it's just Cuomo talking to camera versus Zohran over there running jumping. You know honestly this Cuomo video is a big improvement from the one of the ones I saw earlier in the campaign where it was very clearly staged.
But this has been a big piece of this campaign, right, is finding voters where they are, which is here.
ANDERSON: Yes, he is, I believe, someone whose views are outside the mainstream, maybe not as much for New York City, but outside the mainstream. But he understands how to communicate at a level that very few. It's hard for me to think of examples of other people who understand the world we're in now, and how you talk to voters directly.
And so I think that type of raw political talent is hard to find and Democrats would learn a lot from it.
URBAN: Really good.
WILLIAMS: Scroll through his Twitter feed or his TikTok feed. You know, I don't want to keep overplaying how good he is on social media, but that's where people are. That's where people get their news, and that's where people get their political information. He's a genius politician.
Now, to your point about governing. Yeah, I mean, it's something like free buses in New York, 700, however, was it million or billion? It's a lot of I don't even know it's so much money. That will be --
CUNNINGHAM: Run grocery stores, groceries --
WILLIAMS: That will be profoundly hard to effectuate in New York without something major changing. It's a -- its a in concept. Okay, fine. But that's where the hard work of governing comes in. And perhaps he will figure out a way to either abandon the things that can't happen and make the realistic ones do. Guess we'll see. But the guy's good.
URBAN: You have corporations make some donations to the MTA --
WILLIAMS: As long as they don't --
URBAN: -- buses.
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: As long as they don't put their names on them and still have business in front of the government.
CUNNINGHAM: All the transparency.
HUNT: We shall see.
All right. My thanks to our friends in THE ARENA text chain.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HUNT: All right. As we wrap up here, we're just kind of chatting behind the scenes. I think my question, David Urban will do very quickly. Andrew Cuomo still running, right, likely to lose here. What do you think you're going to see from him tonight? And you know --
URBAN: I don't know.
HUNT: Why no?
URBAN: I really don't know because of these -- the people who Mamdani put in the audience, right? He's going to have to respond substantively to those issues of what he did during COVID. I mean, it's a genius move on Mamdani's part because he's going to have to speak to that just to be to be effective.
WILLIAMS: Nothing but negative campaigning. That's all he can do. I mean, at this point, he's -- he's on the defensive and just has to go after Mamdani directly.
HUNT: Yeah. That's why he appeared here in THE ARENA. Actually, he was talking about the police in particular. And there are -- there are weaknesses, right. But it does not seem to have made a difference so far.
All right, guys, thank you very much for being here. I really appreciate it.
Thanks to all of you at home for joining us as well.
If you missed any of today's show, don't forget, you can always catch up by listening to THE ARENA's podcast. Just scan the QR code right there and you can follow along wherever you get your podcasts.
You can also follow the show on X and Instagram @TheArenaCNN.
Jake Tapper is standing by for "THE LEAD". Hi, Jake.
