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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt
New: White House Defends Demolishing Entire East Wing; Jack Smith Asks GOP To Let Him Testify Publicly; More Indictments Released In NBA Gambling Investigation. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired October 23, 2025 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[16:00:00]
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: You know, ethics, intentions of people who are no longer with us, but the fact that she was involved is really, really telling. That does make this unique.
OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN HOST: Yeah.
KEILAR: Clare Duffy, great to speak with you about this. Thank you so much. We really appreciate it.
And the about this. Thank you so much. We really appreciate it.
And THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT starts right now.
(MUSIC)
KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Hi, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. Welcome to THE ARENA. It's wonderful to have you with us on this Thursday.
It is 4:00 p.m. here in Washington. Do you know where your White House is?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We are proud to announce that the construction of the new White House ballroom will begin.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It will be built over on the East Side, and it will be beautiful.
LEAVITT: The White House ballroom will be substantially separated from the main building of the White House.
TRUMP: It won't interfere with the current building. It won't be. It will be. Near it. But not touching it. And pays total respect to the existing building, which I'm the biggest fan of it.
Sir, this is the White House. You're the president of the United States. You can do anything you want. And we did something that was really appropriate to the White House.
You probably hear the beautiful sound of construction to the back. You hear that sound? Oh, that's music to my ears. I love that sound. It's a very special building. And we are taking care of it.
But if I get money from our country, I'll do something nice with it, like give it to charity or give it to the White House while we restore the White House. And we're doing a great job on the White House, as you know, the ballroom is under construction.
We determined that really knocking it down, trying to use a little section, you know, the East Wing was not much. It was not much left from the original. It was never thought of as being much. It was a very small building. In order to do it properly, we had to take down the existing structure.
LEAVITT: With any construction project, changes come.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Changes come. Here they are.
Live pictures of the White House. Your White House. The entire East Wing now gone, reduced to rubble, to make way for President Trump's new ballroom.
And now, we're getting our first look from space. These new satellite images just in to CNN. The picture on the left showing the White House in October of last year. The picture on the right is from today. You can see on the right the demolition of the East Wing.
And this image sent to CNN from a passenger on a flight leaving the nation's capital today. Again, very clear to see.
Today, the administration vigorously defending the project and its price tag because as the East Wing is coming down, we are learning that the price is going up from $250 million to $200 million. The president now saying its going to be more like $300 million. That is, of course, more than 650 times the average cost of a house in the United States.
The press secretary today, again, pledging that taxpayers will not be on the hook for the bill.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEAVITT: We have released the full list of donors thus far. Perhaps there will be more people who want to generously contribute to this project. And the president, yes, has committed his own resources. And when he releases that information, which I'm very confident he will, you will all see that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: It is true. The White House has released a list of the donors or friends, as the president says, who are putting up money for this project. Some of the biggest names in crypto, in tobacco, the Winklevoss twins, companies like Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, among others. What the White House hasn't released, how much these people and corporations are giving and how much the president is going to put up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEAVITT: Just trust the process. This is going to be a magnificent addition to the White House for many years to come.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Trust the process. Let's get off the sidelines and head into THE ARENA. My panel will be here, but we're going to get started with CNN's senior White House correspondent, Kristen Holmes.
Kristen, what are we learning about the demolition? Who's paying for the new ballroom? And, I mean, look, it really seemed to me that they felt like they needed to defend themselves today.
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, they certainly did. They certainly did. And I think they're aware of both the optics and the outrage over this demolition.
And we've heard them defend the process itself, talking about how they didn't need any legal authority to demolish the building. They only need legal authority to actually do construction, and that they're going to bring it to the planning commission. But again, today was a little bit more defensive.
And in fact, after the briefing, we got a statement from a White House official where they said that all of the historical components of the East Wing, such as elements from Rosalynn Carter's original office of the first lady, have been preserved and stored under the supervision of the White House executive residence and the National Park Service, with support from the White House Historical Association. Generally, when they decide they're going to do something, you don't necessarily see this kind of clarification over and over again.
[16:05:01]
One thing I want to make clear, you noted that the president had mentioned this $300 million price tag. That was the first time we had heard this extra $100 million and Karoline Leavitt during that briefing confirmed that number, but wouldn't say why it had gone up $100 million. We did report last night that is now expected to be larger. The ballroom than previously thought. President Trump has been looking at different renderings showing them to people asking which one they like better. He tells them he likes the bigger one better. Often, they also agree with that.
Now, when it comes to the financing, we know the White House has released this list of donors. We don't have the price tag on it. We also don't have the price tag on how much President Trump himself is willing to give to this project. He has said over and over again that he is going to contribute his own money.
So, we're waiting to see if they ever release that. In particular, a dollar sign amount. Leavitt said that they would be doing that. The other part of this that I thought was fascinating in this briefing, talking about what exactly they were doing is there was a back and forth in which they were asked if they don't believe or if they believe that they don't need anyone's permission to demolish buildings on federal ground. What does that mean? Does that mean they can go and demolish Jefferson Memorial, for example?
And Karoline did not really have an answer to that. She said, this is not a law that the White House made up and that they were just following the guidelines that they were given. But again, never really answering that question of what exactly does this apply to and how far are people willing to go -- that the White House willing to go.?
HUNT: Really remarkable to watch those bulldozers doing that work.
Kristen Holmes, thank you very much for laying it out for us.
All right. My panel is here in THE ARENA. CNN political director, Washington bureau chief David Chalian; CNN special correspondent Jamie Gangel is here; former DNC senior adviser, communications director Xochitl Hinojosa; and former chief of staff to Vice President Mike Pence, Marc Short. We're also joined by former Obama White House ethics czar Norm Eisen. He also served as a special counsel to the House Judiciary Committee during the first Trump impeachment trial.
And if all of those wonderful people were not enough for you, you will also, on the left side of your screen, see our ARENA text chain with additional analysis from top reporters and contributors.
David Chalian, I want to start with you kind of big picture on this because I was really fascinated with how Karoline Leavitt opened the briefing today, and they it was a classic Trumpian move to go on attack, right against previous, you know, they had an outline of the things that had happened in the White House before that underscored plenty of issues that Democrats had had celebrated, things that the Trump administration has done.
What did it tell you that that they felt they needed to be on defense?
DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: This story is so powerfully visual, and that is Donald Trump's medium, right? Like he understands that. And so, I think what you're seeing from the White House in trying to respond to this story is an understanding that because of how visual the story is in nature, it has captured the imagination of the American people, you know, beyond the political back and forth over it and beyond, like people are -- that image of destruction happening at, you know, America's like symbol of our democracy and our system of government and the like that is something that breaks through. And so, I think what you saw at the briefing was a White House that was keenly aware. This has broken through in a way that they weren't controlling. And so, they're trying to get control of it.
HUNT: Jamie?
JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: I think David is absolutely right. I think they have underestimated the visceral reaction of regular Americans to this. I actually got more text messages from Republicans than Democrats, many of them who worked in the White House.
But the kind of thing that I heard to David's point is, you know, there's -- it sparks a fear. What else will he do? And then, of course, Trump critics look at this and think it is symbolic of what they see as a threat to democracy. He's tearing down democracy, critics say. He's tearing down the White House.
HUNT: Marc Short, I will say the previous small C conservative approach to this would not be to rip down the East Wing, right? What -- what -- do you think this was a good idea?
MARC SHORT, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF TO VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: Look, I have mixed thoughts on this, to be candid with you. I'm sympathetic to Josh Hawley's response to Manu yesterday, that there are a lot of people who are crying historic preservation today that were comfortable tearing down monuments in the name of racial justice just a couple of years ago.
But the White House is not his personal house. It belongs to the American people, and it's the American taxpayer that is paid for it. So the fact you have other people donating, I think is a little bit of a canard, but I -- I also think -- it's clear the White House is on the defense right now.
But they probably also are rather cover this than the fact that farmers and ranchers are actually now rising up upset about the president's trade agenda. He's going to China because the trade agenda is that much in disarray.
[16:10:01]
You have now finally nine months of trying to coax Putin, and you actually have disruption, and you have to sanction Russia. You have a so-called peace deal in Israel that seems to be falling apart.
And so there's a lot of big issues that impact the American people daily. And to be covering this, I think, is probably preferable for them.
HUNT: So, considering everything you just laid out there, I mean, Karoline Leavitt said that the ballroom was the main priority when she was asked about this today. Should it be?
(LAUGHTER)
SHORT: No, obviously -- obviously -- obviously not.
I mean, I think there's a lot of -- there's a lot of challenges for the American people right now. I didn't even mention the shutdown. And so there's a lot of challenges in front of the American people that I think that the White House could be focused on, that would be impacting the American people as opposed to --
XOCHITL HINOJOSA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah, and health care costs are about to go up in a week for Americans. Again, yes, the government is shut down. Costs are rising overall. But one interesting thing on who's going to pay for it. I do find it
interesting that the president has not disclosed how much he will be paying. At the same time, when he's still asking the Justice Department for $230 million, mind you.
The government doesn't have to disclose whether or not they ever pay Donald Trump. And so, will that money be used for this? I have no idea.
CHALIAN: He actually floated that perhaps --
HINOJOSA: But he did --
CHALIAN: To charity, and at one point, he did say maybe it could pay for the ballroom.
HINOJOSA: Exactly. And so, we're -- he's still seeking this, which is unbelievable.
HUNT: And so, that's great. That's a perfect tee up for you, Norm Eisen. What are the ethical situation -- what is the ethical situation here?
AMB. NORM EISEN (RET.), SENIOR FELLOW, BROOKINGS: And when I worked in the White House, if we wanted to make changes and we did, we went through the National Capital Planning Commission. There doesn't seem to have been any advance approval of this. I think that image --
HUNT: They do seem to be claiming that they were given permission from them, although the details remain fuzzy but continue.
EISEN: It's extremely murky and, Kasie, that picture of that that building being torn down, the reason it resonates in part is this sense of what are the limits? Will he follow the law? How far will he go?
Over 100 times, courts have said Donald Trump has violated the law. And so, it's not just a cold shock. And you juxtapose tearing down this precious national space. When I would walk through that area and think about the first ladies and the rest of the history, it's gone now. You juxtapose that with our federal workers are having to stand in food lines because of this shutdown driven by the administration's refusal to continue health care for millions of American people.
That is a shocking juxtaposition. Sometimes things break through. And the legalities of it. Mr. Scharf, who's the staff secretary, is also in charge of the approval process. It looks like a kangaroo court. This is not how it's supposed to be done.
HUNT: David Chalian, would you think it would be a fair characterization to call this a Marie Antoinette moment for the Trump administration?
(LAUGHTER)
CHALIAN: I don't know about that. I do think again, I get how powerful the imagery is. I do think
there's like a little bit of a disconnect of, like, all the pearl clutching in Washington over this. In other words, there are things that this administration has done, policies that they're pursuing, that actually, you know, potentially infringe on peoples constitutional rights or that that are really worthy of scrutiny here.
I'm not suggesting that this isn't worthy of our attention, but I do -- I do wonder if indeed the American people would have put this in a list of priorities where this would fall. I would imagine it would not be like all that high.
HUNT: Well, I guess we'll find out as the polling continues to come out around this.
Norm Eisen, thank you so much for joining us. It's wonderful to have you in THE ARENA. I hope you come back.
EISEN: Thank you.
HUNT: And the text chain will say thank you to you as well. We really appreciate it.
The rest of our panel will be back.
Coming up here in THE ARENA, more on the East Wing demolition. Democratic Senator Chris Coons is here live.
Plus, from the basketball court to "court" court. The dramatic new developments in a massive federal investigation on sports gambling. Theres a coach, there's the pro athletes, and then there's the mafia.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Victims were attracted to play alongside well known professional athletes and coaches like Chauncey Billups, only to be unknowingly deceived through rigged shuffling machines, fixing the odds in their favor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:19:06]
HUNT: All right. Welcome back. We have some breaking news just in to CNN. We have obtained letters from the counsel to former special counsel Jack Smith. He is saying that he is willing to testify before the House and Senate Judiciary Committees if his testimony can be public.
Joining me now in THE ARENA to discuss is Democratic Senator Chris Coons of Delaware, who does sit on the Judiciary Committee in question.
Senator, thank you very much for being here. I think I've got a copy of this letter waiting in the wings. Thank you, sir.
I realize I'm sort of probably handing this to you as we are getting it in here, but he writes to Chuck Grassley, who of course is the chairman. And he says that Grassley has not reached out to us to discuss the matter, but that he feels compelled to correct inaccurate assertions made by Grassley and others concerning the issuance of a grand jury subpoena for toll records for senators, eight senators and one member of the House of Representatives.
[16:20:04]
So, this is clearly about the January 6th inquiry, where his office had investigated members of congress that apparently were, speaking with the president of the United States. So, this, of course, this letter from his law firm, law firm Covington, about Jack Smith.
So, I realize you're just learning about this for the first time. So --
SEN. CHRIS COONS (D-DE): Just this minute. So --
HUNT: But what does it tell you that he's willing potentially to testify, but that he does say that he wants it to be in public?
COONS: So, I understand why anyone in his situation would want to testify in open in the public so that it can't be mischaracterized or, or misused. I assume what he's referring to was the concerning allegations that he had been getting data about different senator's phone calls on and around January 6th.
HUNT: Let me pause you right there, because this this paragraph here, I think, underscores what you're saying. The letter says here, quote, "a number of people" have falsely stated that Mr. Smith, quote, "tapped" senators phones, quote, "spied" on their communications or, quote, "surveilled" their conversations.
COONS: Right.
HUNT: As you know, toll records contain merely telephonic routing information collected after the calls have taken place, identifying ingoing and outgoing call numbers, times of the calls and their duration. He say that wiretapping, by contrast, is not historical. It involves intercepting communications in real time.
COONS: Right.
HUNT: Do you have any concerns about how he went about his investigation in this regard? Looking for toll records for members of Congress?
COONS: I mean, I don't know the details, but I have to assume that he followed an appropriate process for getting warrants. Getting a warrant to get the metadata, the who called who when about senators should be particularly closely examined. And he's got a higher standard he's got to meet in terms of the justification of that. But I'll remind you, January 6th was an organized effort to overturn a
federal election. And there was a riot in the Capitol. So given that that was the subject, he was investigating, he may be able to explain and justify this in testimony in front of the judiciary committee.
I'm encouraged to hear he's going to come testify. That way we can avoid mischaracterization of his investigation, and what happened. But I would agree that this is a subject well worth the committee hearing about.
HUNT: Do you think that Chairman Grassley will be open to public testimony from Jack Smith, as opposed to private testimony?
COONS: He should be.
HUNT: Can we talk big picture about this in the sense of and I take your point, obviously, it was at the Capitol complex on January 6th. It's a unique event in the history of our nation. However, how would you feel if there were a Republican president, a special counsel appointed, and it was Democratic senators who'd had their phone records, looked at?
COONS: Comma, in the context of an attempt to mobilize and send at the Capitol an armed crowd to overthrow an election. I could understand it under certain circumstances, if there were credible allegations that those senators had been involved in, trying to mobilize that crowd. That's a very rare circumstance. To your point, there have only ever been a few attacks on the U.S. Capitol in the entire history of our country, mostly by foreign forces like the British who burned it down in the war of 1812.
So, this is a very unusual circumstance. Surveillance of senators should be exceptionally rare and subject to a fairly high standard of review.
HUNT: You, of course, I'm sure, have seen that Jack Smith has been speaking more in public in recent weeks to essentially defend people inside the Justice Department, people that he worked with against some of the changes that the Trump administration has made.
What is your view of his decision to step out in public like that? Do you think he's doing the right thing?
COONS: Well, what I think he's doing is defending both his record as a prosecutor and advocating for those who've been summarily dismissed for simply doing their job as it was assigned to them at the time.
In her confirmation hearing before the Judiciary Committee in January of this year, Attorney General Pam Bondi said she wouldn't be doing that. She wouldn't be looking backward. She wouldn't be carrying out retribution. And yet, there's a whole series of instances of both Department of Justice employees and FBI agents being dismissed for participating, not for doing anything inappropriate, but for simply carrying out their instructions to investigate or carry forward a prosecution. So, I do think it's understandable why he feels like in order to
defend both his reputation but more importantly, the independence of the Department of Justice that he's giving his side of the story.
HUNT: Fair enough. All right. I do want to ask you about -- originally, we had planned to start on the demolition of the East Wing of the White House, which, of course, you know, the pictures have been very striking.
I wondered, have you spoken with dr. Biden, former first lady, Dr. Biden, about what's happened? What do you think it means?
[16:25:04]
COONS: I saw the Bidens about a week ago Monday, but I haven't -- I haven't spoken to them since then. But the idea that the whole first lady's office and the office of legal affairs, has been destroyed. I was in and out of the White House fairly regularly over the last dozen years, and know that part of the White House fairly well, and its stunning that the presidents just bulldozing it so he can build a mini Mar-a-Lago, you know, golden marble ballroom paid for by business interests that have regulatory concerns in front of the White House.
It's a pretty galling action for the president to take to just bulldoze the whole East Wing. When he told the public he wasn't going to do that. But frankly, what I suspect the average American is more upset about is that he's finding the time and the money to bail out the economy of Argentina, with $40 billion and helping Argentinian cattle ranchers sell their beef to the United States, and farmers sell their soybeans to China at a time when Americans are facing a doubling of their health care costs. And he can't be bothered to negotiate with members of Congress to try and avoid peoples health care costs going up.
Trump ran on "I will lower your costs and make America healthy again". Instead, he's raising our costs, making Americans less healthy, and spending his time on things like buying private jets for the DHS secretary and building a new gold ballroom for his White House.
HUNT: All right. Senator Chris Coons, thank you very much for coming by. Really great to have you here in person. I appreciate it.
All right. Coming up next here, more on this breaking news about Jack Smith.
Plus, inside operation nothing but bet the dramatic new details. It was a massive gambling ring that featured some of the biggest names in basketball.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:31:18]
HUNT: All right. Welcome back.
We are continuing to follow this breaking news. A letter sent by the counsel for the former special counsel, Jack Smith, asking Congress if he can testify in an open hearing.
Joining our panel here in THE ARENA, CNN senior law enforcement analyst Andrew McCabe. He previously served as deputy FBI director.
Andrew McCabe, I'd like to start with you on this, because the focus here, according to this letter, is this question of they're known as toll records. You know, for Americans, its if you open up your cell phone bill and you see a list of all the people you've called, was it incoming? Was it outgoing? What was the number?
And this is a tool that's frequently used in criminal investigations. This letter from Jack Smith outlines a number of other times that this was purportedly used against members of Congress, including some Democratic members of Congress.
But I think big picture, I'm curious what it says to you that Jack Smith is reaching out and proactively saying the things you're saying about me in public are not true, and I want to come and defend myself in public.
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I think it's really important. I think it's important that he's speaking up. I think it's important that he's speaking up in a way to kind of demystify what has been grossly misrepresented to the American people by the senators. In that testimony we saw a few weeks ago, as you mentioned, Kasie, toll records are a very rudimentary kind of first step investigative technique in many, many, many, almost all investigations.
And it's typically done early in an investigation when you have an allegation and you're trying to determine -- you're trying to vet an allegation to even see if there's something worth investigating. So if someone comes to you, lets say a situation like this, if someone makes an allegation that they have information that the president contacted a particular senator in the process of trying to stall the Congress's work on certifying the election, one way to vet that information would be to get toll records, to see if there was actually telephonic contact between those people.
And after you've proved that -- if there's no contact, then you know, not to go down that investigative avenue. If there is contact, then there are, of course, more techniques that you can use to get to the bottom of it. I should also say that it takes a grand jury subpoena to acquire those records. This is not something that a prosecutor, an FBI agent, just dream up off the top of their heads and, you know, call up the phone company and say, hey, send us everything you have.
This is a -- there is a process. These records are accessed lawfully under the purview of the grand jury. So, it's -- as I said, I think it was grossly misrepresented in that hearing.
HUNT: Andy, is the bar higher for the records of a member of Congress versus the average citizen?
MCCABE: Sure, sure, they are. And by things as simple as kind of internal policy, the FBI, there are some sorts of investigations that we qualify as sensitive investigative matters. We call them SIMs because, you know, you have to have an acronym for everything. But by definition, if you're -- if you're investigating someone who is a political politically elected person, it qualifies as a SIM. And that puts -- that subjects that investigation and the steps that you propose to take to much greater levels of scrutiny from both people at the FBI and higher levels within headquarters, but also across the street at the Justice Department.
You have to notify the Justice Department when you open a sensitive investigation, and that gives them an opportunity to really -- to really question your motives and your reasons for wanting to do something and whether or not you're intruding on things like a senators speech and debate clause, speech and debate privilege, things like that.
[16:35:09]
So that's how we discuss internally and make decisions about those sensitive cases. I would expect that those discussions took place within the -- within the special counsel's team. And they and they ultimately decided to take the steps they did, which were entirely lawful.
HUNT: Jamie Gangel, you, of course, reported extensively on the January 6th investigation, as it was ongoing.
Did you -- help us understand what role this might have played? I think there is a relevant paragraph here that we haven't read yet here. Jack Smith's legal team is defending their decision to go ahead and do this.
And they say that, quote, in fact, by the time, Mr. Smith's team conducted the toll record analysis. So, by the time they looked at these records, it had been reported that President Trump and Rudy Giuliani tried calling senators for such a purpose. The purpose being to urge them to delay the certification of the 2020 election results. One senator had released a voicemail from Mr. Giuliani to this effect.
GANGEL: So, in fact, it was true. This was a very limited period of time that they looked at. I think the dates were about January 4th to 7th, the days leading up to January 6th and afterwards, and it was for our reporting, a very specific reason. Were calls being made to senators to tell them to delay the process?
And so, just as it says in the letter, we were reporting it and guess what? It turned out to be true. Calls. Calls were made.
HUNT: Marc Short, I -- your favorite topic, I know, but again, you played a significant role with the vice president throughout the January 6th, the day. What do you -- what do you make of the decision to look at these records? You've also served a number of public officials.
SHORT: It might not come as a surprise that many witnesses had their phone records subpoenaed.
HUNT: Really?
SHORT: Yes. But --
HUNT: Tell us more.
SHORT: What's surprising to me is, is that I feel like Republicans in Congress can be talking about passing historic tax relief, maybe talking about securing the border. They can be talking about a ceasefire and Israel in a hostage deal. Why they want to relitigate this? I do not understand.
I think that President Trump has been very successful in revising the historical events of January 6th. Why they want to keep pushing on this and thinking it's a political winner, when you see stories like last week, when one of the people pardoned was arrested for trying to assassinate Hakeem Jeffries,
I don't think this is a political winner for Republicans to keep wanting to turn over more and more of the January 6th investigation, I feel like they should be talking about things that they've been successful with already in the first nine months under Republican rule, and why they're doing this is confusing to me.
HINOJOSA: I have an answer to that. And the reason why they're doing it is because they released this information the day before the morning of Pam Bondi's hearing, and they wanted to distract a little bit and have something that Pam Bondi and Republicans could talk about instead of all -- the toll records. They've been looking for stuff on Jack Smith for quite a while, and I think Jack Smith has been pretty silent over throughout his time at the Justice Department.
SHORT: Because the president is pushing them to do it.
HINOJOSA: And one thing that's clear.
SHORT: That's the answer.
HINOJOSA: The president, the president --
SHORT: Why he's doing it. I don't get it.
CHALIAN: Well, it's not a political winner necessarily with voters. I agree with you on that. But it is a political winner. If you are in this Republican conference and you want to curry favor with President Trump, which is your currency right now, then it's a political winner to dunk on.
SHORT: Not as much in the general election as the primary.
HINOJOSA: Well, we'll see if they'll let him testify publicly.
HUNT: Yeah, for sure.
All right. Ahead here in THE ARENA. This story special contact lenses, an X-ray poker table, an alleged fake injury. What we're learning about the massive sports rigging and gambling investigation into some NBA players and the mob.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:43:30]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KASH PATEL, FBI DIRECTOR: It's mind-boggling. It's not hundreds of dollars. It's not thousands of dollars. It's not tens of thousands of dollars. It's not even millions of dollars.
We're talking about tens of millions of dollars in fraud and theft and robbery across a multi-year investigation. This is the insider trading saga for the NBA.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Just two days into this year's NBA season, the FBI this morning unveiled a sweeping mafia-linked sports rigging and gambling probe that is rocking the world of professional basketball. Among the 30 people arrested this morning, three big names in the game, Hall of Fame player and current Portland Trailblazers coach Chauncey Billups, Miami Heat guard Tony Rozier, and Damon Jones, a former player who was a teammate of LeBron James and was once his personal shooting coach.
The indictments, stemming from two major operations. The first alleges that the defendants used nonpublic information about NBA players and teams to profit by gambling on it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSICA TISCH, NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER: In some instances, players altered their performance or took themselves out of games to make sure that those bets paid out. One example occurred on March 23rd, 2023. In Charlotte, Terry Rozier, an NBA player now with the Miami Heat, but at the time playing for the Hornets, allegedly let others close to him know that know that he planned to leave the game early with a supposed injury.
[16:45:00]
Rozier exited the game after just nine minutes, and those bets paid out, generating tens of thousands of dollars in profit. The proceeds were later delivered to his home, where the group counted their cash.
As the NBA season tips off, his career is already benched, not for injury but for integrity.
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HUNT: The second operation accuses the defendants of partaking in a nationwide scheme to rig poker games.
It's like straight out of "Oceans 11". They used, quote, "high tech cheating technology" like this X-ray card table and this shuffling machine to steal millions of dollars from victims during games that were backed by three New York mafia families, all of it like a scene pulled directly from the small screen.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Better check. Don't rush me, sunshine rushing me (EXPLETIVE DELETED) all night.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah, he didn't study this hard in school.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cry me a river. Three beautiful kings.
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HUNT: Beautiful kings. Let's bring in CNN correspondent Brynn Gingras.
Brynn, so this was a massive probe. Two different schemes. Take us through first Miami Heat player Terry Rozier's case.
BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. So, you said it there. Terry Rozier, he's a guard currently for the Miami Heat. At the time of some of these allegations, he was playing for the Charlotte Hornets. And what authorities are alleging here is that he would as Kash Patel, the FBI director, said to give insider trading for the NBA, essentially tell a coconspirator who might be injured that day, who might be pulling themselves out of the game so they don't score as many points or rebounds as someone might be betting on.
And in one instance, they allege that he did that himself, pulled himself from the game just to win a bet. And so that's what they're alleging, that they made tons of money doing this scheme for quite a long time, over several games and basically laundered that money to keep it hidden.
Another example, a big name to come out of this same indictment, the same alleged scheme is Damon Jones. You mentioned it there. LeBron James's own personal shooting coach also was a player with LeBron James, and at one point was also an assistant coach at the Cleveland Cavaliers. LeBron James isn't actually mentioned in this indictment, but it does mention a fact that allegedly, Jones mentioned to someone that some big player was going to be injured for a particular game. And we've now learned that LeBron James wasn't actually playing in the game that they are talking about.
So that is the scheme of the insider trading again, as they describe it for the -- what these two men are alleged to doing.
HUNT: Okay. Remarkable enough by itself. But then there's the other piece of this, right. The poker scheme. And this is the one that allegedly involves the Portland Trailblazers' head coach.
GINGRAS: Yeah, Chauncey Billups, I mean, a hall of famer -- I mean, probably the most well-named -- biggest name to come out of these two indictments. So basically, what's being alleged here by the federal authorities is that he teamed up. He's one of many people who teamed up with the New York City mafia crime family members to basically have these underground illegal poker games. They were happening in Miami, New York City, the Hamptons, L.A., and essentially said, "Hey, you know what?" to someone, "Come play poker and sit alongside this NBA legend while you play."
Well, that person was considered the fish. And essentially everyone at that poker table was in on the scheme, except for that fish. And basically, what they said is they used this high technology that you've described, and well hear more about it to basically rig that poker game. Take a listen.
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JOSEPH NOCELLA JR., U.S. ATTORNEY, EASTERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK: They used off the shelf shuffling machines that had been secretly altered in order to read the cards in the deck, predict which player at the table had the best poker hand, and relay that information to an off- site operator. The defendants used other cheating technologies such as poker chip tray analyzers, which is a poker chip tray that secretly reads cards using a hidden camera. Special contact lenses, or eyeglasses that could read pre-marked cards, and an X-ray table that could read cards face down on the table.
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GINGRAS: I mean, some real high-tech stuff here. And then what they're also alleging, Kasie, is that then there's old school mafia tactics, tactics used to collect those earnings including robbery, rather extortion. And that's all sort of laid out in the indictment as well.
HUNT: Really remarkable.
Okay. Brynn Gingras, thank you very much for your reporting.
And joining us now in THE ARENA, NBA reporter and host, Stephanie Ready, CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney, Joey Jackson, and CNN senior law enforcement analyst Andrew McCabe remains with us. We're also joined by THE ARENA text chain, because let's be real, everybody is talking about this.
Andy McCabe, I want to stick to the investigation for a second just to kind of pull on that thread that Brynn was laying out for us. How common are these kinds of machines, are these kinds of schemes?
[16:50:05]
And how do the feds go about busting one up?
MCCABE: Yeah. So, let's back up one step and addressing that question. And how common is it that you have cheating and money laundering and organized crime activity in illegal gambling, it's absolutely always the case. Gambling is like the low hanging fruit of organized crime. As long as there's been illegal gambling in this country, which is also as long as there's been organized crime in this country, organized crime will find a way to profit from it.
This is just the latest. And they are now, you know, emboldened to use high tech means to get an advantage over the people who are sitting at those tables and losing their money. They will absolutely do it.
And of course, the traditional organized crime activity of extortion and threats and according to the indictment, a robbery at gunpoint, those sorts of things come in after the game has been lost. And now money needs to be collected, and people sometimes need to be threatened to make that happen. This is the natural environment of organized crime.
So, to protect yourself from this activity, don't participate in illegal poker games. You do that and you're pretty much good.
HUNT: I appreciate that advice very much, sir.
Stephanie Ready, let me talk to you a little bit about what this means for the NBA, because this clearly must be a tough day for the organization. What -- how have they responded? How are they taking it in?
STEPHANIE READY, NBA REPORTER AND HOST: Well, this is, of course, very near to worst case scenario, right? When you talk about a professional sports league and gambling, and this is something that all of the professional sports league have been trying to protect themselves from since they all got in bed with the gambling, right? The pro-sports gambling is a big, big money business.
And you can see it. They've got shows on networks now. They have placements on courts and arenas, all sorts of things. They're business partners, right? (AUDIO GAP)
So it's in everyone's palm of their hand now. It's on their phones and apps so anyone can get access to gambling to the line, whatever it is, these prop bets though is what makes this very interesting for the NBA because they are very specific to a player and or a statistic.
So in the example that we have with Terry Rozier and also prior with Jontay Porter is that they themselves can remove themselves from the game, whether its feigning an injury, sickness, whatever the case may be, and then they will know, obviously, that all of those statistics, rebounds, points, assists will all be down because they are not participating.
So, if they give that information to someone else, who then in turn places a bet, that is a distinct advantage. And that's where they talk about that insider trading of information. It is a very slippery slope, and sometimes you could find yourself, maybe you don't even know that you're doing it. (AUDIO GAP) that information.
It is something that the leagues are trying to guard themselves from.
HUNT: Yeah. Really remarkable. We're losing your audio just a little bit there.
So, Joey Jackson, what is the potential punishment here? I mean, what are these guys looking at?
JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yeah. So it's draconian without question, Kasie, but just backing a step up for one second. This is an indictment, right? They haven't been declared --
HUNT: I should say, of course, if convicted. Yes.
JACKSON: And always, you know, look, as defense attorneys, you guard that, right. Just like the players union came out and said they're going to guard their members' due process rights. An indictment is an accusation. There's 23 members on a grand jury. You need simple majority, 12, to say, not that you're guilty, but there's reason to believe that a crime was committed and they committed it.
Having gotten through that, the issue is, Kasie, that these are long- term investigations as it relates to the sports betting issue. They've been looking into this since December of '22 and alleging the conduct extended to March of '24.
As to the other issue with regard to the illegal betting and that type of thing, and the gambling in these poker games, this goes back to 2019.
So the bad news is that they've been investigating a long time. You would suspect that the federal government would have the goods. That is the information, the text messages, the email exchanges, all that they need, the witness and all of that.
Now, in terms of the wire fraud, wire fraud, anything you do through interstate, communications could be a phone call, could be email, et cetera, 20 years. In terms of the other violations of money laundering, same thing. As it relates to the other issue concerning the illegal poker games, they also have a Hobbs Act violation. Hobbs Act violation, when you shake people down, when you engage in robbery, when you do all that through interstate commerce -- again, it's a problem and it's a crime. If, in fact, it's proven.
Now last point, Kasie, quickly, and that is that although, yes, it carries these 20-year penalties under the federal system, you have federal guidelines. And so, the guidelines in the event they're convicted, there's a process, they will really be met out in terms of punishment, depending upon their criminal history, depending upon the specific nature of the conduct they engaged in, depending upon whether they've pled guilty and accepted responsibility, et cetera. We're a long ways from that, but to be clear, these are very significant federal statutory violations.
HUNT: Yeah. No, much -- really fascinating. And I have to say, I have a thousand questions, including what it may mean for fans, whether or not they're going to be able to kind of trust the games that they're watching being played. But unfortunately, we're out of time.
Stephanie Ready, Joey Jackson, Andrew McCabe, thank you all very much for being here with us. We really appreciate it.
We'll be right back.
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HUNT: All right. Thanks to my panel. Thanks to all of you at home for watching.
Don't go anywhere. "THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER" starts right now.
