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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt
Just In: Judge Praises Prosecutors Suspended After January 6 Reference; Fetterman On Shutdown As Food Assistance Funding Is Set To Run Out: "This Is Not Some Shitty Game Show"; Trump Orders Pentagon To Start Testing Nuclear Weapons. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired October 30, 2025 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: That's many years.
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Some people steal chickens, some people steal jewels. I don't know.
KEILAR: Yeah, well, I think the jewels probably going to get a little more time.
SANCHEZ: Yeah, definitely.
KEILAR: Though I prefer chickens.
SANCHEZ: Some would say she liberated.
KEILAR: THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT starts right now.
(MUSIC)
KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Hi, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. Welcome to THE ARENA. It is wonderful to have you with us on this Thursday.
As we come on the air, alarm over a possible push by the Justice Department to rewrite history to please President Donald Trump. A hearing wrapping up just moments ago with a federal judge complimenting the prosecutors even after they were removed from the case and their sentencing memo revised to remove references to President Trump and to January 6th, including the phrase, quote, "mob of rioters".
The original filing did not contain any factual inaccuracies. It raises the question why suspend those prosecutors and why cut those two very specific references? It's all happening during the sentencing for this man, Taylor Taranto. He was inside the Capitol on January 6th, was among those pardoned by President Trump for his actions that day.
In 2023, though, he was arrested with weapons and ammunition near former President Barack Obama's D.C. home. In a memo filed yesterday, the Justice Department noted that on the day of Taranto's arrest, Donald Trump shared a post containing the Obama's alleged address on his Truth Social platform. Prosecutors say Taranto reposted Trump and then began live streaming as he searched the Obama's neighborhood, saying this quote, "Got to get the shot. Stop at nothing to get the shot," end quote.
So, the new filing in this case made no mention of January 6th or Donald Trump, or the fact that Trump was the one who publicly shared the Obamas' purported address and the original prosecutors remain on administrative leave. The judge today did make a point of saying that they, quote, "did a truly excellent job in this case."
Let's get off the sidelines and head into THE ARENA. My panel is here, and we're also joined by someone who was in the courtroom for this sentencing hearing.
CNN crime and justice correspondent Katelyn Polantz.
Katelyn, bring us inside the room. Pretty remarkable set of events here.
KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, everyone in that room in the sentencing this afternoon. They were hanging on every word of Judge Carl Nichols, seeing what he would say, how he would address this situation, a situation that current and former prosecutors in the Justice Department are telling me. It is nothing short of scandal for these two prosecutors who had been on this case to be suspended. And for the sentencing memo they wrote to have removed all references to January 6th and to Donald Trump.
In court, Judge Nichols was not the one to mention January 6th at all today. It was Taylor Taranto who brought it up very briefly in his remarks. He didn't have a strong point to make to the judge. He said he actually was just mentioning it for the benefit of journalists and students of law who may be watching so that they could understand dissent.
But what happened in court? Judge Nichols, the only thing he did was acknowledge in referencing this Justice Department situation, he only referenced the two suspended attorneys. They were there in the courtroom watching the proceedings. They were not at counsel table. They were in the back.
Judge Nichols said that my view is that they did a commendable and exceptional job, and they did a truly excellent job in this case. However, whenever it got to the point of the hearing, when Judge Nichols may have said something about the history and characteristics of the defendant, the sort of thing you talk about in a sentencing hearing, he did not bring up the participation in the Capitol riot of Taylor Taranto, and there were current and former prosecutors. I was watching in that courtroom, sitting, also watching, waiting to see what Judge Nichols would say.
And they were shaking their head. They were very disappointed, evidently, by the judge not addressing this situation inside the Justice Department. Orwellian is what someone had told me earlier today. HUNT: All right. Katelyn Polantz reporting for us -- Katelyn, thank
you, as always, for starting us off.
All right. Our panel is here in THE ARENA. Senior correspondent for "New York Magazine", Irin Carmon, chief Washington correspondent for ABC News, Jonathan Karl. It's a real treat. Jonathan, of course, the author of a new book, "Retribution: Donald Trump and the Campaign that Changed America". Irin also has a new book out, "Unbearable: Five Women and the Perils of Pregnancy in America".
So here you go. There's your shopping list at the top of the show.
We're also joined by CNN political commentator Paul Begala and Republican strategist Brad Todd.
And if it's not enough, on the left side of our screen, we are joined by our ARENA text chain with additional analysis from our top contributors.
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Jon, that's for everybody. That's on mute.
I'm so honored to have you here. Thank you for being here.
JONATHAN KARL, ABC NEWS CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: No, it's great to be here.
HUNT: It's a real treat to have you on. And of course, your book is "Retribution", fitting to have you here discussing this particular topic.
You've known President Trump for so many years.
Can you help us understand why the Justice Department would see something like this in a filing, right, and decide that it was important for them to go in there and change it, presumably because of what the president is looking for.
KARL: First of all, this is entirely unprecedented. To see a sentencing memo submitted on the docket and then taken off, erased and changed to erase this, you know, central fact is something you just don't see, but it's part of the effort to erase the reality of what happened on January 6th. And it's central to Donald Trump's retribution campaign.
He has from -- from the start, from the that day, we all remember he refused to do anything publicly to call his supporters off until being browbeaten for hours and hours wouldn't send the national guard up. And now he has spent the last five years, almost five years, erasing the reality of what happened on that day.
HUNT: Yeah. I mean, I remember being up there waiting, thinking somebody must be coming, somebody must be coming, and no one was coming.
Irin, you've written about this as well.
IRIN CARMON, SENIOR CORRESPONDENT, NEW YORK MAGAZINE: Well, I think that the impact on the Department of Justice and what they call the presumption of regularity, the belief that when the DOJ says something in court that a judge who is listening can give it credence because of the long running relationship between the Department of Justice and the U.S. attorney's offices and judges, is being undermined, and that there's a pattern as shocking as today is, there's also a history and precedent.
Just in the last few months of we know that the prosecutors for January 6th were purged simply for being involved in the prosecutions. We know that other career attorneys have been fired simply for making true statements in administration's priorities, cases such as Kilmar Abrego Garcia, there's a whistleblower in that case who was also put on leave or suspended for telling the truth about not wanting to lie to a judge about whether those planes were going to take off.
Similarly, in a case of Guatemalan kids being ripped from their bed, the administration made untrue representations before a judge. And so, judges can now no longer believe that when a prosecutor stands in front of them or files a sentencing memo, that they can give that the same historic deference and credence that they used to. And I think for the so-called law and order precedent, precedent that sets a very bad precedent.
HUNT: Let's talk a little bit, too about the politics of this, but also the removal of, Paul Begala, the reference to President Trump posting the Obama's address on social media, the purported address considering the climate of political violence that we are living in, what do you make of the fact that that became a focus as well?
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, it's particularly loathsome because President Trump himself has twice been targeted for assassination, which is monstrous. And so, if anybody ought to know how dangerous these times are, it is Mr. Trump.
But this is part of an all-out war he has on truth. So, I can't wait to read Jonathan's book because this is retribution against James Madison and the others who framed the First Amendment. He's going after universities for telling the truth or allowing protests he doesn't like. I probably wouldn't like him either, but it's a free country.
He's going after journalists. He's going after media firms, he's going after law firms. He's going after comedians. Anybody who dares to tell the truth.
The truth is, according to sworn testimony by Trump's own aides, President Trump was told before on January 6th that people had AR-15s, handguns, brass knuckles, batons. There's other court documents that show that these rioters were armed with fire extinguishers, lumber, police shields.
Michael Fanone, a hero cop, was tased in the neck until his heart stopped by these rioters. They were rioters. It was terrorism. And for the Trump administration to try to erase that history is really -- it's a crime against history.
BURNETT: Let's read for a second. Brad, what has actually been removed, right?
So, this is a line that was taken out of this filing. On January 6th, 2021, thousands of people comprising a mob of rioters attacked the U.S. Capitol while a joint session of Congress met to certify the results of the 2020 presidential election.
Does anything in there wrong?
BRAD TODD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No, I don't know who thought they were doing the president a favor by taking it out. You can't erase Taylor Taranto's crimes on January 6th or afterward. And no, that's not going to be --
HUNT: The president has tried to. He's pardoned everybody.
TODD: The action still happened. That's -- but I think -- what -- in taking it out, they've done a disservice to the president because the president this week got made great progress with China on our trade war with them. Soybeans farmers are going to be selling Chinese -- China soybeans for the next three years. The president got a rate cut out of the Federal Reserve, something he has been seeking for nine months.
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Another good, good win for him this week. Instead, we're talking about this.
And so, whoever made that decision in the Justice Department didn't do him any favors, even if they thought they were currying favor.
HUNT: Jonathan Karl, you have some amazing. We put them up on the screen -- contemporaneous notes from the vice president, documenting what happened that day. And, of course, I remember being up there and hearing the chants of hang Mike Pence. Right. And again, here, I could use your help in translating some of this. Forgive me for not being able to read his handwriting, but talk a little bit about what you learned reporting this out and how you think it ties into what we're talking about today.
KARL: First, and sets on the screen. This is part of the notes -- he's writing what Trump said and what he said in response. And he's writing -- Trump writes, you listen to the wrong people. I said, I'm listening. I listen to my heart and my mind. And if you look in the top of the screen there, it looks like he is writing an angry face emoji.
I don't know if he's reflecting the anger that he was hearing, the rage he was hearing from Donald Trump, or his own anger for being asked to violate his constitutional oath and to overturn a presidential election simply because he was presiding over its certification. But that's an incredible document, because those were the notes. This
was a phone call that happened at about ten in the morning on January 6th, shortly before Pence takes the ride up to the Capitol, where you heard those chants of hang Mike Pence, and he's writing it on his daytimer, on his -- on his calendar. He's so taken by this call that he feels a need to record it for history.
And that document had never seen the light of day. January 6th committee throughout, you know, hours and hours of primetime hearings, they were unable to get a hold of it.
Pence referred to writing notes in his own memoir, but he had never had the ability to show that to anybody. And I was able to -- with the -- with the help of a really great colleague of mine, Katherine Faulders, at ABC, get a hold of that document and show it to the world., the real time pressure that the vice president of -- Donald Trump's vice president was under on January 6th.
HUNT: I've occasionally tried to compete with her on a story.
KARL: Yeah.
HUNT: She does deserve props.
KARL: It's very hard to do, yes.
CARMON: And I also really did not have Mike Pence pegged for an angry face emoji guy.
KARL: No. I never thought that you'd be the kind of guy to draw anything like that.
HUNT: Yeah, no, it's actually really illuminating. I haven't covered him for so many years.
I mean, Jon, I also want to talk to you about the president's penchant for -- and again, he's talked so much about political violence, right? But essentially doxing, right? I mean, he did this way back in 2015. I mean, let's watch the moment in the -- this was during the presidential primary in 2015. Donald Trump is running against Lindsey Graham as part of this.
And here's what he says.
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DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And he gave me his number, and I found the card. I wrote the number down. I don't know if it's the right number. Let's try it, 202 (AUDIO DELETED). I don't know, maybe it's -- you know, it's three or four years ago, so maybe it's an old number, 202 (AUDIO DELETED).
So, I don't know -- give it a shot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KARL: You know, you don't really need to bleep it out anymore because poor Lindsey Graham, it was his real number.
HUNT: Yes, it was --
KARL: It was destroyed, his phone --
HUNT: Hold on. We got to watch that too because it's great, right? So, this is what Lindsey does because Donald Trump does in fact give out Lindsey Graham's actual phone number.
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SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): Or if all else fails, you can always give your number to the Donald. This is for all the veterans.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: So, it's a funny way of making the point that you were just making. He knows that -- he understands the power of doing this. And we're seeing in this instance, with this filing, someone who is and you saw this on January 6th as well, right? I mean, he essentially called people to go and do this, and they listened.
KARL: Yeah. And since he came back to power, his one of his very first actions was to, of course, have a blanket pardon for all 1,500 rioters. There were about what was it, a dozen or 15 that were had their sentences commuted and not full pardons, but everybody out of jail immediately on the first day, and then he goes over to basically take over the Justice Department that hour, just as he's getting sworn in, does a purge of the top ranks of the FBI senior prosecutors at the Justice Department, anybody who had any connection whatsoever to the January 6th prosecutions or any of the prosecutions of Trump on the other cases.
HUNT: Brad, why do you think that getting reelected wasn't good enough for Donald Trump in this regard? Like, why wasn't that vindication enough?
TODD: Well, because he thinks 2020 was taken from him unfairly, and he thinks that people knew they were taking it from him unfairly. You know, I think regarding -- giving out the President Obama's neighborhood, of course, is the wrong thing to do. And I think he probably wouldn't do it now, now that he's on his own golf course, on a day when he was going to play golf, that -- that's -- that has happened far before that.
I think the assassination attempts changed a few of those things within the president. I don't think he would do that today.
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But, you know, that's a real problem here. That's growing. I mean, Supreme Court justices have people wandering around their driveways, members of Congress, there are 100 threats against members of Congress that are legitimate a year. We have a real problem with political violence in this country, and we
don't have enough security for our elected officials.
CARMON: And if I could jump in, though, federal judges that I've talked to are also very afraid for their security and perhaps Donald Trump was not sharing the exact addresses, but he's repeatedly named these judges. He's talked about them being removed, but he's also talked about them in very personal terms, as supporting insurrection or as flouting the Constitution.
So, and they don't have nearly the security every year they ask for more security as a federal judges, one of whom whose child was murdered by somebody who, unrelated to Trump. But this is a very real threat.
You know, he may not be tweeting addresses or sharing them on social, but he's still putting targets on the back of people who are just doing their jobs as part of democracy.
KARL: And don't forget, he took security details away from Anthony Fauci, Mike Pompeo, John Bolton from a whole series of people who he continued to attack, who faced very real threats.
TODD: I hope we get away from that as a country. Tuesday's are a big chance in Virginia. You know, the attorney general candidate for the Democrats, Jay Jones.
HUNT: Yes. Okay. We do not have time for that conversation also, Brad, although I do understand where you are going.
TODD: I'm going to go right there.
HUNT: Our thanks to THE ARENA text chain.
And, Irin, thank you so much for coming down to be part of the show today. Really appreciate it. Her new book is "Unbearable: Five Women and the Perils of Pregnancy in America". It is available now, and hope to have you back to talk more about it at some point.
Coming up next here in THE ARENA with the vice president is now saying about the president's order to start testing nuclear weapons.
But first, Congresswoman Ilhan Omar will be here with us live in THE ARENA as millions of Americans prepare for the possibility of going without critical food assistance. The Senate leaves town, extending the shutdown into another week.
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SEN. CYNTHIA LUMMIS (R-WY): Staying another weekend, hoping the Democrats will come to the table is going to be a waste of time.
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J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If any moderate Democrat or Democrat, period, from the United States Senate wants to comb over, they're welcome to walk into these doors in an hour. I'm happy to talk to them about how -- how to end the government shutdown.
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HUNT: Vice President Vance offering Senate Democrats an open invitation to the White House this afternoon. He says if they're willing to negotiate and end the 30 days and counting government shutdown, that the shutdown is coming up against a critical Saturday deadline for funding the federal food assistance program, known as SNAP. Forty-two million Americans rely on SNAP for food stamps.
One of the Senate Democrats who's been voting with Republicans to end the shutdown giving yet another stern message to his party.
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MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Schumer said this gets better politically every day for Democrats. What do you say to that?
SEN. JOHN FETTERMAN (D-PA): Yeah. Well, ask -- ask the hungry people on Saturday. You know, it's like -- that's the thing. You know, Americans are not leveraged. This is not -- this is not some shitty game show about who's winning or whatever. It's just like we have to be better than this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: All right. Joining us now in THE ARENA, Democratic Congresswoman Ilhan Omar of Minnesota. She sits on the House Budget, Education and Workforce Committees.
Congresswoman, it's great to have you on the show. Thanks for being here.
REP. ILHAN OMAR (D-MN): Great to be with you.
HUNT: I want to play a little bit of Americans who are facing down this weekend, looking at the prospect of losing access to the food assistance they rely on.
Let's watch.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It won't stretch. It doesn't. So we'll pull from other parts of our budget and that means my kids will go without.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very concerned. I don't know what I'm going to do. I know you can go to food pantries and stuff, but it's going to be so out of control. I mean, you might be standing there for five, six hours to get any food.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It would be a matter of, do we eat or do we pay rent? And right now, the way things are going, it looks like you know what? Let's just pay rent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Congresswoman, the reality is Democrats in the Senate could choose to vote with Republicans to reopen the government and help these people. Why not?
OMAR: Well, that reality means that we are going to risk, a health care crisis. We have 22 million Americans who are going to see their health subsidies skyrocket. I have constituents in Minnesota, one person, an individual is going to see their premiums go up 25 percent. That could mean about $1,500. Small business owners are going to see it, about 14 percent going up.
Look, we all understand how devastating the shutdown is. That's why we've been here in Washington, D.C., begging our Republican counterparts to come to the table to negotiate with us, at least to have a conversation.
You heard J.D. Vance say that he is inviting Democrats. That invitation should have happened from day one. I have never seen Congress be in recess while the government is shut down. The president traveling abroad while the government is shut down. When we have had government shutdowns, everybody has worked urgently throughout the day and night.
HUNT: But isn't this the risk that Democrats took? Because oftentimes Democrats have been defending the role of the government and Republicans in the past. Democrats have said policy is not a reason to shut down the government.
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A policy fight is not a reason to do it. Why is it different now?
OMAR: This is not a policy fight. This is a health care crisis.
HUNT: Well, but that fundamentally is the fight over --
OMAR: We are going -- yeah, but we are going to see people die in this country because they're not able to provide health care for themselves and for their families. I think that is a worthy fight for us to be in.
What I am shocked by is the fact that Republicans have chosen to say, I don't care if you lose your health care, have chosen to say, I don't care if you're going to lose a paycheck. I'm not going to sit down with Democrats. I don't care if your children go hungry.
If you're disabled and you can't feed yourself. I'm not going to sit down with Democrats. We have always ended a shutdown because we realized that it was important for us to sit with our Republican counterparts, because ultimately, we were the ones that we're in charge.
Now you have the Republicans who are in charge thumbing their nose at the American people and saying, I don't want to sit down with the Democrats. I don't want to negotiate with them. I don't want to find a common ground. And that is the biggest problem here.
HUNT: Let me show you what Charlamagne Tha God said last night. He appeared on "The Daily Show". Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLAMAGNE THA GOD, RADIO HOST: People are angry. So why is Hakeem Jeffries talking like he's Chuck E. Cheese Obama, okay? Like, what are we doing? What are we doing? Come on, man, come on, come on, come on.
Clearly, the Democrats don't have the leaders they need to meet the moment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: He says Democrats don't have the leaders they need to meet the moment. Is he right?
OMAR: We have leaders. The problem is the leaders on the Republican side are refusing to meet with our leaders. You cannot have a government that functions without there being leaders having a conversation. That is where the core of the problem is.
HUNT: So speaking of leaders in New York City, I want -- I do want to turn and ask you about the mayor's race there. You, of course, very much a progressive leader here in Washington. And there's been a lot of conversations about Zohran Mamdani and his role as a leader in the progressive movement.
Now, Hakeem Jeffries, your leader, has somewhat reluctantly but has endorsed Zohran Mamdani, Chuck Schumer still has not. Why do you think Chuck Schumer has not endorsed Zohran Mamdani?
OMAR: I really don't know. It makes no sense. We are -- we as Democrats have always believed that in an election, we support our party's nominee. Schumer has pressured other Democrats to do just that, and he should be following his own advice and endorse Mamdani.
HUNT: Do you think religion plays a role at all?
OMAR: Well, the tsunami of the -- of the anti-Muslim attacks that we are seeing is deeply concerning. And I would hope that the Democratic leader in the senate would recognize that and would offer support not just to Mamdani, but the million Muslims who live in New York city and the millions who live in New York and in America.
HUNT: What do you say to people who believe that Zohran Mamdani is the pace at which he discussed condemning the phrase globalize the intifada was not fast enough, that it was antisemitic, the pace at which he did that? OMAR: Well, everything he does or says seems to be called
antisemitic. What I do know is that he has support from a broad coalition of New Yorkers. He's got a huge coalition of Jewish voters that are supporting him. He's got a huge coalition of Muslims of every sect. He's got a huge coalition of young people who are supporting him.
And the reason they are supporting him is not just because he's an exciting candidate to support, it's because he took the time to listen where the policy pains were for New Yorkers. And he's offering a solution for them. They see hope in the kind of progress that he could create for New Yorkers.
HUNT: One Democrat who has campaigned for and endorsed him is Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. Would you like to see her primary Chuck Schumer?
OMAR: I would like to do Alex -- I would like Alex to do whatever it is that Alex wants, and I'll be there to support her.
HUNT: All right. Congresswoman Ilhan Omar, thank you very much for being here. Really appreciate your time.
All right. Coming up next here in THE ARENA, President Trump ordering the Pentagon to do something they've not done since the early '90s. The U.N. now saying it is not okay under any circumstances. We will explain.
Plus, just why were Democrats left out of a critical intelligence hearing today?
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SEN. MARK WARNER (D-VA): We got a ham-handed, "Oh, maybe you're right. Whatever." I say bullshit.
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J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have a big arsenal. Obviously, the Russians have a large nuclear arsenal. The Chinese have a large nuclear arsenal. Sometimes you've got to test it to make sure that it's functioning and working properly.
We know that it does work properly, but you've got to keep on top of it over time. And the president just wants to make sure that we do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: So that was the vice president this afternoon explaining why President Trump directed the Pentagon to immediately return to testing nuclear weapons.
This is what President Trump is saying about the decision.
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TRUMP: It had to do with others. They seem to all be nuclear testing. We have more nuclear weapons than anybody. We don't do testing. We've halted it years, many years ago. But with others doing testing, I think it's appropriate that we do also.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[16:35:05]
HUNT: So, it's not clear whether Trump is referring to a nuclear weapons test or a test of a test of a nuclear capable weapons system. America last tested its nuclear weapons in 1992, the last time Russia tested nuclear weapons in 1990. It was still part of the Soviet Union.
The only nuclear nation to test their weapons in the 21st century was North Korea in 2017.
CNN contributor and CNN's former Moscow bureau chief Jill Dougherty joins us now in THE ARENA. And our text chain is also back with us.
Jill, thanks for being here.
Sure. Can you help explain why this is such a big deal to people who haven't thought about it in literally decades?
JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, you've already laid it out. I mean, there is no testing except for North Korea, which doesn't do it anymore. Thank God, we think. But the --
HUNT: Important to note that they are ostracized outside the international system in order, even with all of its conflicts between Russia, America, China, et cetera. Thats how far outside.
DOUGHERTY: Absolutely. And the idea that we don't test -- well, we don't blow them up, but we do test them with computers, supercomputers that are capable of figuring out whether they work, whether they have to be modernized. So, I do not buy the idea that, well, we just have to keep testing. We're already doing that. We're already making sure they work correctly.
But why this is dangerous, I would argue, is that once you say were going back to testing, then everybody else who has nuclear weapons will say, gulp, well, maybe we should do testing too. And that's where you have Russia. Very quickly responding, saying, hey, we're not doing any testing. And by the way and then you have China, which is building up very, very fast.
So, I think this sets in train a very different a dangerous process of escalation.
HUNT: Jonathan Karl, as someone who really understands how Donald Trump thinks about things, and you saw what he said there, right? He seemed to be implying that someone else, somewhere in the world, had taken an action to which he was responding. What is your interpretation of this?
KARL: Well, first of all, you also played J.D. Vance, and they gave two very different.
HUNT: Very divergent.
KARL: So, you know, Donald Trump is saying, because others are testing, we need to test as well. J.D. Vance says, hey, we've got these weapons. We've got to make sure they work. Very different arguments.
And Trump, it's important to say Trump didn't say that they're going to do underground nuclear explosions, that the actual the kind of testing we used to do in Nevada before we stopped in the in the -- in the early 1990s, or if it's the delivery systems or if it's the kind of computerized simulations that Jill is talking about. We asked the White House about this, and the response back was, you know, we asked, is this about delivery systems or is this about actual testing of the bombs?
And the answer we got back was possibly both the Department of War is working through it. Well, actually it's the Department of Energy that does testing. So I'm not really sure what was intended and where it's going.
HUNT: Yeah. The Congressional Research Service says that the U.S. maintains the capability to resume testing within 24 to 36 months of a presidential decision to do so. And it is important. I mean, Vance did say, yes, we have to make sure they work. But to be clear, we know that they do work, that we don't really have to do this.
BEGALA: Right. We have ways. Jill's right. They also test components so that we know this and that works.
Russia's not testing. And Tom Nichols at "The Atlantic", who used to teach at the Naval War College, he's a really terrific expert on this stuff. He wrote that the Russians are testing a delivery system. The bureau -- I have to get it right, Burevestnik missile, which the cruise missile powered --
HUNT: Scott Jennings is talking about that in our chat.
BEGALA: -- powered by -- but that's not what -- that's not what Trump said. Now, if he says testing on an equal basis, great, because nobody else is.
TODD: Testing is the way --
BEGALA: Which means don't test because nobody else is testing.
KARL: That means he's not going to be doing --
BEGALA: It means he's not going to be doing any testing. Look, he's an ignoramus, and he's an ignoramus with nuclear weapons,
and that's terrifying. That's what's really going on here.
TODD: No, he said we'd be testing on an equal basis, which, if they're testing delivery systems --
BEGALA: We test our delivery systems all the time.
TODD: He also said he looks forward to the day when we can get rid of more of them, and he hopes he can help us get rid of him and other countries. So, let's -- let's keep in mind that that's what -- Donald Trump's approach is to always show strength and try to try to then back people off. That's his goal here. I think it's pretty clear. I think we're -- it's a tempest in a teapot.
BEGALA: So, it's worth noting that the person who has been nominated to lead our nuclear weapons command just happened to be before Congress today. And so, this is what this person said about what he believes the president means. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VICE ADM. RICHARD CORRELL, NOMINATED TO LEAD U.S. NUCLEAR WEAPONS COMMAND: I wouldn't presume that the president's words meant nuclear testing.
SEN. MAZIE HIRONO (D-HI): Well, that's what he said.
CORRELL: It -- I believe the quote was start testing our nuclear weapons on an equal basis.
[16:40:01]
Neither China or Russia has conducted a nuclear explosive test. So I'm not reading anything into it or reading anything out.
HIRONO: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: So I will say, Jon, that this military officer seems --
KARL: Very deftly done.
HUNT: Very sober mind and a deft way of handling this, which seems --
TODD: More grasp of the facts than Senator Hirono, but that's no surprise.
HUNT: Seems like excellent qualifications for the job of handling our nuclear weapons, just in that regard. But, there is something about the fact that people like this when the president says things on social media, I mean, we are not talking about unserious matters here. We are talking about trying to interpret what the president of the United States is saying about what we should do with our nuclear weapons. KARL: Yeah. I mean, there are good things about the way Trump will
act and cut through red tape, and he can whether it's negotiating a deal, a ceasefire deal in Gaza, you know, he can cut through, whether it's the Abraham Accords, he can cut through all that process.
But every other presidency, if you're -- if the president is going to make a pronouncement about something as important about our nuclear stockpile, it's not done. You know, just with a truth social post that nobody else saw. But this happens continuously.
And obviously, it's not just national security matters. It's everything. He speaks or he tweets or now he Truth Social posts and everybody scrambles to figure out what it actually meant and what they're going to do about it.
HUNT: What do you think? Yeah, yeah, go ahead.
DOUGHERTY: Nuclear weapons are very precise. The conversation about that is one of the most sophisticated and esoteric subjects in the entire world.
So, to come out with a tweet and to talk about nuclear weapons in that fashion, I think is quite irresponsible, I have to say, because nobody knows what he said. Nobody really understands. Do the Russians understand? Do the Chinese understand?
They're not going to take chances. They might want to, just in case, you know, go back and start testing their own weapons. I don't think they will. But the problem is imprecision is dangerous.
HUNT: All right. I want to thank our ARENA text chain. The rest of our panel is going to stand by here.
Ahead in THE ARENA, we're going to have much more with Jonathan Karl, including what Gavin Newsom just told him about what the president is like in private. And we'll dig more into his new book on the Trump presidency.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: In 2016, I declared, I am your voice. Today, I add, I am your warrior. I am your justice. And for those who have been wronged and betrayed, I am your retribution. I am your retribution.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:47:01]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D), CALIFORNIA: Donald Trump's a broken man.
TRUMP: I think that Gavin is largely incompetent.
NEWSOM: Donald Trump does not believe in fair and free elections.
TRUMP: California, where you have one of the worst governors in the country, Gavin Newscum.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Scum, bully, SOB. Some of the many barbs traded between President Donald Trump and the man who is some call. And he's definitely trying to be his foil. California Governor Gavin Newsom, during their long standing feud that feuds only escalated in recent months, as Newsom has emerged as a leading voice in the fight against the MAGA agenda.
Governor Newsom, though, just told one of our panelists yesterday that in reality, the President Trump, you get behind closed doors isn't necessarily what you might think.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NEWSOM: We get along, you may not believe this, extraordinarily well.
KARL: I have a hard time believing that.
NEWSOM: And have for years.
KARL: Actually that is Trump, though, isn't it?
NEWSOM: Yeah. He doesn't get interpersonal confrontation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Jonathan Karl, back with us to talk more about his book and decades long relationship with Donald Trump.
I mean, do you actually have a hard time believing it? Because --
KARL: I mean, I did in the moment, and I'm thinking, actually, no, you know? I mean, that's -- that's --
HUNT: Kind of how Trump is.
KARL: I mean, that's how he is. I mean, I've witnessed it personally many, many times over the years. The most brutal attack in public and then privately, it's like -- he's like my best friend.
And I document in my book time and time again when he had really warm interactions. I'm serious, warm interactions with Joe Biden, the man that he has lobbed the most -- you know, I mean, compared to what he said about Newsom, I mean, far worse, his attacks against Biden and beginning with Butler, when Biden called him after the shooting until January 20th, after the after Trump was sworn in and he walked him out into the helicopter.
I talked to somebody that was on the helicopter and had video of the Bidens and the Trump's walking to the plane, walking to the helicopter, and Trump leans in and says, keep in touch. Let me know what I can do for you. I mean, and then he goes minutes later and attacks him in the most vicious terms.
HUNT: Yeah, well, I mean, you've probably experienced this yourself, and we have a moment in the Oval Office where Trump is looking at the cameras. Let's watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: You know, for you to stand there and act so innocent and ask me a question like that. You can't sit back and just say, oh, well, what do you think? You don't like you're some wonderful person. You're not a wonderful person. Frankly, you're a terrible reporter. You know it, and so do I.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: You're a terrible reporter, he says. But does he like that in private?
KARL: So let me tell you what happened, literally just a few minutes later. So, the thing ends. They take the press out like they always do. Trump actually motions me over to the to the resolute desk and says, we're okay, we're okay.
And I'm like, wait a minute, you were rough on me. I was like, no, no, you were rough on me. It's okay. Thank you, Jonathan. Thank you.
And so, like minutes later after saying that on national television, you know, in the hate that comes as a result of that. But I -- you know, you learn that he either doesn't mean it or he doesn't mean it for long.
[16:50:07]
HUNT: Paul Begala, has politics always been like this, where people attack each other in public, but in private? Its like this, or --
BEGALA: There's some good in that. I mean, famously, Reagan and Tip O'Neill, you know, Clinton-Gingrich actually, personally could get along pretty well. I mean, it was pretty tense.
But no, not like this. This is WWE. And what I think it is, is that in his heart, Donald Trump has contempt for the people who support him. I don't. I think there are a lot of good people voted for Donald Trump, probably for, you know, reasons of their own.
But he thinks they're dumb and he thinks they'll believe anything. So, he puts on a show. He's Killer Kowalski, he's WWE. And then afterwards it's like, oh, we're buddies. We're elites together.
We're all big shots. It's all fine. It's all one kind of game to fool all the yokels.
HUNT: Do you think he has contempt for his base? My interpretation of it has often. Honestly, Paul, been at odds with where you are. Which is that he feels like he has a legitimate connection with people that other people write off, in part because he himself feels like he was written off by the elites for his whole life.
KARL: Yeah, I don't think that Donald Trump has contempt for his base. I mean, I think he feels a true connection with those people. I think he has contempt for some of the people around him, for the people that, you know, give him complete and total loyalty and tell him everything that he wants to hear at every moment. He wants that. But then after a while, it starts, you know, he doesn't have the respect for it.
And I think that, you know, one reason that I've had a pretty good relationship with him over the years is I do not hesitate to ask the hard questions or to report the facts as they are. But I treat him with respect. But I'm not going to just roll around and, you know, tell him exactly what he wants to hear.
TODD: I'm trying to find something I can agree with what Paul said. I'm going to say that he said -- he has a lot of respect for people who vote for Trump, and I do, too.
BEGALA: Yeah, sure.
TODD: And I know you do.
BEGALA: And you do for people who voted for Trump, right?
TODD: Yes. Of course.
BEGALA: Yeah.
TODD: So, but -- I think, you know, in trying to understand Trump, we're working. Salena Zito and I are working on the book "Great Revolt". We talked to a lot of first time Republican voters for Trump and the converts.
Those are really the people that are the most interesting. A lot of those people who were voting for Trump for the first time, for a Republican, one thing they like about him is that he speaks informally, and they find some of this rough talk informal. They find it refreshing because it's not what most politicians do.
And politicians who pretend they like everybody in public and really hate them, those voters find that inauthentic. And so, in some ways, it's his secret sauce.
KARL: And frankly, you know, he upsets the same people that these people that his base has no respect for his base feels have been failed by the elites in the country, the elites, not just the elites in universities and in corporate big corporations, not just the big Democrats, but the elites in the Republican Party. And he upsets them. And they love that.
BEGALA: I would be all for that. The media thought that's how he governed.
The acid test was his inaugural. The weather made them go inside. Did he have one cop, one firefighter, one steelworker, one farmer? One of those wonderful people, 75 men who put him? No.
He had every billionaire dirtbag tech bro standing around him. And that's his real base. Mar-a-Lago elites drenched in gold and plastic surgery. That's who he wants to be with.
HUNT: Quite an image.
Excuse me, Jill. How does this play on the world stage?
DOUGHERTY: Well, I'll tell you, I watched Russia. They take advantage of everything, so they would probably be quoting what you're talking about at this point. They will use everything to either praise Trump or criticize him. There's a lot of trolling going on at the same time that they like President Trump.
But I think now watching the past couple of days, it is not a very, very nice conversation that's going on. I think they're genuinely worried about zigzagging. Where are we going? And that Trump is saying things that begin to worry them, begin to worry Putin.
HUNT: John, what is your sense of the third term talk that is coming from President Trump right now, just as somebody who understands how he's dealt with these kinds of situations, is it serious? Is it a troll? Like, what's the deal?
KARL: I don't think it's serious, but I think that it can get out of control. I think that right now why he does it, he shows off the hats. I mean, he does it to great effect. He's got the hats, the Trump 2028 hats.
You know, he's -- he talks about it because he knows it really freaks people out. He's trolling his political opponents. Privately, he tells people, no, I'm not going to stick around for a third term. But when you have Bannon actually making like an intellectual case for how's the Supreme Court going to handle it if we elect Donald Trump again, are they going to say that the people's choice can't serve a third term because of the 22nd Amendment?
You know, I think Trump starts to hear that. He starts to -- if he hears enough, that you're the only one, you are the only one -- who knows. Also, I don't know how he cedes the spotlight to another Republican.
[16:55:01]
I mean, how does that work? How does he go to a Republican convention? That's not about Donald Trump.
TODD: It's going to be -- he's going to love it because he gets to pick his successor, which will be the --
KARL: But at that point, it goes to somebody else. And I don't -- I mean, I know he loves "The Apprentice". He loves picking. He does it with other candidates, who's going to endorse. But you're picking somebody to replace him as the center of attention.
HUNT: I will believe it when I see it.
All right. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HUNT: All right. Thanks very much to my panel for being here. Really appreciate you guys.
Jon, it's such a treat to have you. Thank you very much for being here.
You can also now stream THE ARENA live and catch up whenever you want on the CNN app. If you missed us here, go ahead and scan that QR code below. There's also the podcast. You can follow the show on X, Instagram in THE ARENA @TheArenaCNN.
Jake Tapper is standing by for "THE LEAD".
Hi, Jake.
