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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt
"Punishable By Death": Trump Demands Dems Face Sedition Charges; Judge: Admin "Acted Contrary To Law" In Deploying National Guard In D.C.; DOJ Investigating Trump Officials Leading Schiff Mortgage Probe. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired November 20, 2025 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[16:00:00]
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: People are actually developing a shorter snout. So people are actually developing a shorter snout. So they're getting cuter. Part of that is a process of domestication, I guess just, you know, leave something out for them.
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: No, no. They're terrible. They're terrible.
Let's go to THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT.
KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Hi, everyone. Welcome to THE ARENA. I'm Kasie Hunt.
It's wonderful to have you with us on this Thursday. A stunning moment in a country more divided than ever. And one that has been rattled by horrific acts of political violence.
President Donald Trump, in a post on his Truth Social platform, calling for six Democratic members of Congress to be arrested, and in another implying that they are engaged in, quote, "seditious behavior punishable by death," end quote.
So, what is this these lawmakers alleged crime? The act that the president of the United States seemed to suggest could result in their execution, it was making this video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. CHRIS DELUZIO (D-PA): Right now, the threats to our Constitution aren't just coming from abroad.
REP. JASON CROW (D-CO): But from right here at home.
SEN. MARK KELLY (D-AZ): Our laws are clear. You can refuse illegal orders.
SEN. ELISSA SLOTKIN (D-MI): You can refuse illegal orders.
DELUZIO: You must refuse illegal orders.
SLOTKIN: No one has to carry out orders that violate the law.
REP. CHRISSY HOULAHAN (D-PA): Or our Constitution.
CROW: We know this is hard.
KELLY: And that it's a difficult time to be a public servant.
SLOTKIN: But whether you're serving in the CIA.
CROW: The Army.
DELUZIO: Or Navy.
HOULAHAN: The Air Force.
KELLY: Your vigilance is critical.
SLOTKIN: And know that we have your back.
CROW: Because now more than ever.
HOULAHAN: The American people need you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: So all six of the lawmakers who contributed to that video are veterans of Americas military or intelligence community. In just a few minutes, we'll speak with one of them, the former Army Ranger, Congressman Jason Crow.
Responding to the president's comments, the Democratic lawmakers said, in this joint statement, in part, quote, "Every American must unite and condemn the president's calls for our murder and political violence. This is a time for moral clarity," end quote.
This afternoon, the White House denied that the president is calling for executions and defended his criticism of the video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Just to be clear, does the president want to execute members of Congress?
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: No. We do things by the books and to suggest and encourage that active duty service members to defy the chain of command is a very dangerous thing for sitting members of Congress to do, and they should be held accountable. And that's what the president wants to see.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: But the president said, or shared a lot more than that. These lawmakers should be held accountable. Aside from writing himself that they should be arrested and tried, he reposted numerous posts written by other people. One of them said in all caps, this, quote, "Hang them. George Washington would," end quote. Another said that the Democratic lawmakers should be marched out of their homes at 3:00 a.m., while news cameras rolled. Still others used terms like domestic terrorists, insurrection and treason.
Democratic congressional leaders today announced that they're in contact with Capitol police about ensuring the physical safety of the six lawmakers and their families as their colleagues warn of the potential consequences of President Trump's words.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): Every Democratic member of the Senate and the House, their life is in jeopardy right now, especially those that were specifically targeted by this social media post.
If you are a person of influence in this country, maybe it's time to pick a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) side.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: All right, let's get off the sidelines, head into THE ARENA.
My panel is here. Former Trump campaign manager Bill Stepien; CNN contributor, "New York Times" journalist and podcast host Lulu Garcia- Navarro; former communications director at the DNC, Mo Elleithee; and CNNs senior political commentator Scott Jennings.
Scott, of course, has his new book out, "A Revolution of Common Sense: How Donald Trump Stormed Washington and Fought for Western Civilization".
We're also joined now by the retired Army Major General Randy Manner, to talk a little bit more about this story.
And, Randy, I do want to start with you on the significance of the president's post, as well as, of course, the things that he reposted. Noteworthy to me that the press secretary at the White House today, she was very critical of the Democrats who made this video, but there was not a particularly aggressive defense, necessarily, of the things that the president had reposted, targeting them.
What do you think the implications are of what the president did today?
MAJOR GENERAL RANDY MANNER, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Advocating for political violence, no matter whether you're on the right or the left, or the president of the United States, is morally unacceptable, and we should not -- we should not accept that.
[16:05:05]
That is not what our country is based on. Whether you were a supporter of Charlie Kirk or of the president or one of those senators' representatives with that video and they are exercising their First Amendment rights. Whether you agree or disagree is not relevant. They have that right to speak up.
To advocate for political violence against them is just unbelievably bad form. In addition, we have to -- I have to reassure all the listeners that our military will follow lawful orders, they will resist unlawful orders, and they will stay apolitical. That is their mission again, to defend the Constitution.
And we have to remember that the idea that I was ordered to do something that is not a defense against war crimes, as we've seen in numerous cases throughout history, starting with Nuremberg, most almost 80 years ago.
HUNT: General, in your experience, is it always crystal clear what is lawful and what is an unlawful order?
MANNER: That's a great question. Again, the area of law is extremely complex. I'm not an attorney. I'm an operational commander, operational flag officer. I relied on the JAGs all the time to ensure that I got their best advice and counsel before putting out orders.
The average soldier, sailor, airmen and marines, they are supposed to execute and believe in that, those execute the orders of those officers that were above them, because you would hope that those senior officers, two, three and four stars with legal advice have figured out what is a lawful order. Now, don't get me wrong, there are certain red lines that every single soldier should understand, you don't shoot prisoners of war. You don't fire on unarmed Americans in our American cities.
Those -- no soldier, sailor or marine needs to understand the complexities of the law. However, you are correct, law is extremely complex and that is something where the JAGs provide legal advice and counsel to those commanders, those generals and admirals, to make the right decisions for our country.
HUNT: So, I'm glad that you raised a JAG officer, because I want to play something from a current U.S. senator, longtime ally of Donald Trump and former JAG officer himself. This is how Lindsey Graham talked today about what the president said.
Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): I think what they did was despicable. I don't agree with the president they should be put in jail. But I do believe what they did was despicable. And they did explain themselves.
REPORTER: Did he go too far saying punishable by death?
GRAHAM: I think they went too far. Well, yeah, I think that's over the top.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: So, Scott Jennings, I mean, even Lindsey Graham says it's over the top, right, to say that it should be punishable by death here. I mean, this is -- seems to represent a significant escalation here for the president to say that some members of Congress did should result in, what it should result in. SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah. And the White
House press secretary was asked directly about it today and she said, no, that's not what the president was calling for. You said it in your opening monologue.
And so, you know, Karoline Leavitt speaks for the president. She speaks for the White House. And I take her at her word.
I do think the president is drawing attention to and is outraged by something that we should take note of and should be outraged by. You have Democrat members of Congress, A, raising the prospect that the president has given illegal orders, which no one can yet tell me what that is, what order is illegal, and be encouraging members of the military to defy the chain of command and disobey the commander in chief. And the reason they're doing it is because that's what their base demands. It's why they shut down the government, their base demands that they try to throw sand in the gears of government operations, and that would include interrupting Donald Trump, being the commander in chief.
I think he has a right to be outraged about this. I'm glad Karoline said what she said at the podium. But I think the underlying issue here is very troubling, trying to encourage the military to defy the commander in chief. It goes to the core of their belief that Trump has never been a legitimate president. They believed it since '16, and they obviously still believe it today.
MO ELLEITHEE, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, DNC: Well, some people would argue that he's given illegal orders, namely several federal judges. One just in the last hour or two put out a ruling that his deployment of the National Guard to D.C. is no longer legal. So, but we can have a political debate on that, Scott, you and I are friends, and I was moved by a lot of your comments after Charlie Kirk's assassination about how the political rhetoric of the day, you could draw a through line between the political rhetoric of the day and the political violence that resulted. And I agree with you. I agreed with you then.
This -- if that upset you, this should upset you, because this president said something that some of his supporters may hear as a call to action.
[16:10:03]
I don't know -- I don't think that what they said rose to that level. I think what they said was simply just restating what is in federal law. But we can have a debate about whether or not it was appropriate for them to say it. But his -- there are people who are going to hear what he said, and you see it on social media and in this culture, we all Democrat, Republican, I know you agree with this, all have an obligation to turn the temperature down when it comes to rhetoric that could be seen as violent.
JENNINGS: I agree with you that political violence is wrong in all cases. I abhor political violence, and I can only point you back to what the president's direct representative, Karoline Leavitt, said today when she was directly asked about this, she said, no, that's not what the president was saying.
And so, I wholeheartedly agree with you that we all have a responsibility to denounce political violence. As far as I know, there hasn't been any political violence today. And you have the White House press secretary saying there should not be any political violence and no one should take it that way. So, I think what Karoline did today was actually quite important when she answered a direct question about it.
HUNT: And the question of their potential arrest and trial as distinct from a potential call for violence. Do you see that as something that is legitimate in the face of members of Congress making a video that they put on social media?
JENNINGS: Look, I don't think any members of Congress are going to be arrested, but I don't think this should take away from the debate about whether what they did is responsible. They know better. And the -- and in my opinion, they are simply making videos that are outrageous and pushing the envelope to satisfy a radical base that demands their Democratic leaders to do kind of things like that these days.
HUNT: Let's watch a little bit of what the House Speaker Mike Johnson had to say, because, of course, relevant what top Republican leaders are saying doing in the face of the president's comments. Let's look at -- let's see what Johnson said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: That was a wildly inappropriate thing for so-called leaders in Congress to do, to encourage young troops to disobey orders. I mean, think of what the threat that is to our national security and what it means to our institutions. I just -- we have got to raise the bar in Congress. This is out of control and is wildly inappropriate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: And you are hearing Bill Stepien, other Republicans echo that line. It is, I think, worth remembering, though, Mark Esper, the former defense secretary under Trump's first term, wrote in his book that the president asked him in 2020 if protesters could be shot outside the White House, right, which, you know, Randy Manner's outlined would be an unlawful order, essentially.
How do you look at this and how do you understand? I mean, you worked for this president. How do you understand what -- where he is coming from?
BILL STEPIEN, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN MANAGER: Scott's right. This is really all about politics, right? Any of those six members or senators could get a meeting with any member of the military, any rank, any time, any place. They -- this is about politics.
They've been all over cable news today. I'm sure the fundraising emails are on blast. This is not about the greater good. This is about politics. This is really what this is about.
HUNT: Lulu, do you see it that way?
LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I think this is bananas that we are having to have a discussion about whether or not the president meant what he wrote, which is always the discussion we seem to have, that he says something explicitly, and then his people have to walk it back. And then here on cable news, partisans are trying to parse that, to say that he didn't mean what he said. Now either he writes it and he means it because he's the president of the United States or he doesn't. So that's the first thing I'll say.
And what I'll say about what the Democrats did you know, I think there is a very good debate to be had as to what that meant and why they chose to do it. And I agree with you that it was clearly and brazenly political, but there's nothing wrong with that. At the end of the day, in the sense that they are politicians. So they are doing something political.
Whether they should be put in prison for that, whether they should be hanged for that -- now, that is a totally different order of magnitude.
HUNT: All right. We do want to get to this one piece of breaking news coming in to CNN. And, of course, Mo, actually just mentioned a minute ago or so, and that's that this federal judge just ruled that President Trump illegally deployed the National Guard here in Washington, D.C.
The judge saying that the president and the Pentagon, quote, exceeded the bounds of their authority and, quote, acted contrary to the law. The ruling is being put on hold to give the administration some time to appeal.
And, General Manner, I wanted to get your thoughts on this, since you are the former vice chair of the guard. I know we talked about this when it first happened, and there are distinctions between the federal city that is Washington, D.C. and other states. But what is your reaction to this ruling?
[16:15:01]
MANNER: Again, this is another example of where the law is extremely complex. And not only does it require military judges, in this particular case, it requires civilian judges to be able to examine the details. Again, the president is the commander of the D.C. National Guard. And so, to this point it seemed like it was perhaps, legal, but not necessary. And that's, again, the president's prerogative in this particular case, we have a situation where the president, excuse me, the courts have decided to this point that perhaps it was not legal.
Again, it just -- it amplifies what is important to all of us is that we do have to have debate, both politically. But then within the military, we do rely on the legal advice of the JAGs. And then in this particular case, the civilian courts, to examine the actions of whomever it might be. So again, it's extremely complex. HUNT: All right. Major General Randy Manner, thank you very much.
Always appreciate having your expertise, sir. Thanks for being here.
The rest of my panel is going to stand by. Coming up, the Trump Justice Department investigating an investigation into one of the presidents most vocal critics on Capitol Hill, putting two administration officials under the microscope.
But first, Congressman Jason Crow will be here live to respond to the threats being made against him and five other lawmakers by the president of the United States.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SLOTKIN: This country has given me everything. I am here because I'm an American, and it gave me everything, and I'm not going to shut up because Donald Trump is threatening me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:21:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CROW: This morning, President Donald Trump threatened to have me arrested and executed simply for reminding our service members of their oaths to follow the Constitution and to defend the rule of law. I've taken many oaths throughout my life as a combat veteran, a paratrooper and army ranger, and now as a member of Congress. That is a lifetime oath for me. It's very telling that President Trump and those around him think its criminal simply for asking people to follow the law.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: All right. That was Democratic Congressman Jason Crow responding today to President Trump's call for his arrest as one of the seditious Democrats who posted this video telling troops to disobey unlawful orders.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK: Our laws are clear. You can refuse illegal orders.
SLOTKIN: You can refuse illegal orders.
DELUZIO: You must refuse illegal orders.
SLOTKIN: No one has to carry out orders that violate the law.
HOULAHAN: Or our Constitution.
CROW: We know this is hard.
KELLY: And that it's a difficult time to be a public servant.
SLOTKIN: But whether you're serving in the CIA.
CROW: The Army.
DELUZIO: Or Navy.
HOULAHAN: The Air Force.
KELLY: Your vigilance is critical.
SLOTKIN: And know that we have your back.
CROW: Because now more than ever.
HOULAHAN: The American people need you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: All right. Joining us now in THE ARENA is Congressman Crow. He represents Colorado as a former Army Ranger who's deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan.
Congressman, thanks very much for being here.
I'd like to start with what the president said today about you and your colleagues, that you should be arrested and that you were guilty of sedition. I think my question off the top is, how seriously do you take this as a possibility?
CROW: Well, we have to take everything that Donald Trump says seriously. He throws a lot of stuff out there, but some of the things he carries through on. But listen, I'm not going to be intimidated. I'm not going to be threatened. I took an oath to the Constitution. I've seen friends and people that I've served with give everything to uphold that oath. That is an oath that will last my entire life, and I intend to keep it.
And I'm just not going to allow him to silence dissent and opposition. And it just tells us everything that we need to know that reminding people to obey the law, reminding people to obey the Constitution, is somehow criminal in Trump world and should be responded to with death threats. It's very, very telling.
HUNT: Your colleagues, Chuck Schumer, the minority leader in the Senate, said that the president was pouring gasoline on a fire, potentially.
And, Chris Murphy, the senator from Connecticut, put out this video, had these comments earlier. Let's watch and we'll talk about it on the other side.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MURPHY: Is perhaps the most reckless, irresponsible thing that he has done all Congress. And it's going to get a lot of us killed. (END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Do you think he's right that this could get members of Congress killed?
CROW: Well, we have to be very careful. Theres no doubt about that.
But listen, I lived through and I experienced the insurrection on January 6th. You know, he has a history of inciting violence, of weaponizing his platforms and getting his followers to act on his threats. He did that on January 6th, 2021, where I sat here and I watched hundreds of U.S. Capitol Police officers and metro police being brutally beaten by his supporters as they tried to derail the democracy.
So, we should always take what he says seriously. But once again, what he is trying to do is he's trying to use fear and intimidation and threats to silence opposition. And if he's successful in doing that, we are all lost. And I'm not going to allow him to do it. I'm going to stand up and I'm going to lead, and I'm going to do what's necessary to uphold the Constitution now and always.
HUNT: Can you talk a little bit about why now? I mean, Republicans have pointed out that this is not necessarily doesn't seem to be tied to something specific. You serve on the Intelligence Committee.
[16:25:01]
Is there something that you know that we don't know that would cause you to put this video out now?
CROW: Well, one, Donald Trump has a long history of threatening legal -- illegal things, right? So, he's actually threatened to shoot peaceful protesters in Lafayette Square using the military. He's threatened to go to war with the city of Chicago. He's threatened to send troops to polling stations, which is actually a criminal violation of U.S. law.
But on top of that, we cannot wait until our troops are put in this position to give them guidance and remind them of their obligations. And here's why that's important. Before I deployed my platoon of paratroopers in Iraq in 2003, I trained them.
We talked about the law of war. We talked about the Geneva Convention. We talked about how hard it will be when they are put in a position of having to make a split-second decision about what their oath and what the law requires.
And you have to get people thinking about that, because if you wait until they're put in that position, it's too late. You have to have that conversation and you have to do that training before. And that is the conversation that we have started.
HUNT: So, are you saying that there was not necessarily any particular precipitating event? There is no specific thing out there that made you decide now is the right time. CROW: That's right. To be clear, we are not calling on folks right
now to debate, to disobey any type of unlawful order, right? There is very real and deep concern about what this president has threatened to do over and over again. There are three more years left of this administration. If we are not talking about this and having a conversation about it and demystifying this conversation, we are not fulfilling our duty. We are reminding people that have taken the oath what that oath requires of them to do.
HUNT: I want to play a little bit more of what Karoline Leavitt had to say from the podium at the White House today, and we'll talk about it on the other side. Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEAVITT: The sanctity of our military rests on the chain of command. And if that chain of command is broken, it can lead to people getting killed. It can lead to chaos. And that's what these members of congress who swore an oath to abide by the Constitution, are essentially encouraging.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Is that what you're encouraging?
CROW: No. Karoline Leavitt is outright lying. Actually, what she said from the podium is that there was an encouragement of disobeying lawful orders.
We actually said the exact opposite. We simply reminded folks of what the Constitution and law requires. But again, they're lying and their propaganda and their twisting of the truth is an attempt to silence dissent and to use fear and intimidation.
And I frankly just don't do that well. I don't allow myself to be intimidated. I never have, and I never will.
HUNT: Are you or others who appear in this video planning on hiring or expecting to have additional security in the wake of what the president said?
CROW: We've already been given additional security by the House, and we're taking all the measures that we have to take. You know, I'm not going to allow myself to be afraid and to be intimidated, but we also will take the measures that are necessary to protect ourselves and our families. That's something that we always do, and I take very seriously.
HUNT: Did the House speaker have to approve the additional house security?
CROW: I'm not sure about that, actually. I've spoken with Hakeem Jeffries. Speaker Johnson has not reached out to me, which, frankly, is very unfortunate that the speaker of the house wouldn't respond to this and take this very seriously. In fact, he seems to have joined the chorus of disinformation and propaganda by the president and Karoline Leavitt, which is once again beyond disappointing to see the failure of leadership on the Republican side.
HUNT: All right. Congressman Jason Crow, thanks for being here today. Appreciate your time, sir.
CROW: Thank you.
HUNT: All right. Coming up next here in THE ARENA, another Justice Department bombshell. Why a federal grand jury is now looking into the two Trump administration officials that have been leading an investigation into California Democratic Senator Adam Schiff.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:33:21]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): I can tell you this. Those of us on the president's enemies list, and it is a long and growing list, will not be intimidated. We will not be deterred. We will do our jobs. We will stand up to this president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: That was Senator Adam Schiff, one of President Trump's longtime political adversaries, standing defiant in the face of the president's threats to prosecute his supposed enemies.
Schiff has been under investigation by the Trump Justice Department over allegations of mortgage fraud. Now, we're learning that that investigation is being investigated.
So, yes, an investigation into an investigation. Sources tell CNN that the Justice Department is looking into possible issues in the Schiff probe.
CNN crime and justice correspondent Katelyn Polantz joins us now.
Katelyn, can you please understand -- help us understand what's going on here?
KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. Kasie, this is a moment where the Justice Department, the FBI, they are now looking into this investigation around Adam Schiff. But the best way for us to understand this is to look at it through the eyes of a witness who spoke to investigators today at the federal courthouse in Maryland.
So, this all is breaking today because this one witness, her name is Christine Bish. She's a Republican from California, had flown over to Maryland into this area to talk to investigators. And in fact, I just spoke to Bish on the phone. And what had happened is that she for a while had been gathering her own documentation in the public records about Adam Schiff.
She wanted to look into his possible financial situation. And then at some point in this past year, she started sharing that information with someone who was holding himself out or was a federal investigator.
[16:35:08]
But then when the FBI contacted her in October around this Schiff probe, she told them she had already spoken to somebody who was a federal official. And that's when the FBI and the U.S. attorney's office in Maryland started asking her more questions about who she had talked to.
And then subpoenaing her, even to the grand jury, and to hold hand over documents that she may have about her interactions with not just this person she had been in touch with over the summer, but also with anyone from the offices of Bill Pulte, who's a federal housing official, or Ed Martin, who's a person of the Justice Department who has carried forward many of these heavily political investigations that Donald Trump has wanted.
So, where this ends up a huge question, but it's clear that the questions she was asked today, she says, were about investigators investigating investigators. She said to our Devin Cole at the courthouse today, Devin is a reporter with CNN.
She told him if they're trying to tie me into some kind of clandestine conspiracy, it's not there in. The best way to protect myself is to be open and honest in public. Somethings not adding up, and I haven't gotten to the bottom of it yet, but I will.
Sources are also telling us that the office of the deputy attorney general, that's Main Justice in Washington is looking into this and the possibility that there are people who had been dispatched or who are out there holding themselves out there as the investigators around the Schiff probe, who may not actually have the ability to do that work as federal officials -- Kasie.
HUNT: Katelyn, is this a situation that that could jeopardize? I mean, if, say, there's "there" there with Adam Schiff, right, does this conduct potentially mean that that probe can't go forward?
POLANTZ: Kasie, that is another question that we are just not going to know the answer to right now. Although we have heard previously that prosecutors were hesitating to move forward with the investigation of Adam Schiff, not exactly finding. Solid things to merit a charge right away.
HUNT: Okay. Fair enough. Okay. Katelyn Polantz, thank you very much for helping us understand that.
Our panel is back up.
Not sure. I'm still totally -- I appreciate, Katelyn's reporting very much, but I mean, Lulu, this is very tied in knots. All of it.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yeah. I have to say, with great respect, I'm still confused as to where the investigation stands. Who is accusing who of what and what the problem is.
I think the headline, though, would be if I had to, that all of these investigations so far, Comey being another one, Schiff being the latest one has -- have a lot of irregularities around them. Have been deemed to be repeatedly kind of very suspect because we know that what actually has prompted them was the president and his desire for retribution.
And so, you know, what we're seeing, I think, is more of what we've seen at the Justice Department from the get go in this administration, which is a lot of turmoil and a lot of difficulty actually landing these cases that the president wants to land.
HUNT: Bill, what is your understanding of the sort of universe here? Because, I mean, Bill Pulte -- it doesn't sound like he's totally enemy free inside the Trump administration necessarily. There's been some reporting about that.
I mean, how do you understand what is going on here?
STEPIEN: At least we're not talking 50-year mortgages today.
HUNT: There's that.
STEPIEN: But it seems like it's either sloppy or intentional, and neither is good. I mean, I think there's a potential weaponization of -- it's wrong if Alvin Bragg does it or Letitia James does it, or this administration does it. It's just wrong.
And if you look at faith in the justice system, 2017, Gallup poll, it was 65 percent. It's 31 percent now. That's just not good for our country. That's not good for our people. And, you know, on the heels of the follies in Virginia yesterday, it doesn't look good as a whole for the administration.
HUNT: Scott?
JENNINGS: I agree with Lulu. I'm somewhat confused about it. It's opaque to me about what's actually happening here. But you know what strikes me about these cases? And I've argued this every time we've talked about one of them, the systems that we have are designed to create outcomes, to give people confidence in those outcomes.
You know, the president cannot just order something to happen. It has to go through a process. A grand jury has to look at it. Judges have to look at it. You know, there's a whole set of systems here, and it sounds like the systems and the gears are turning. Maybe they're turning in a way that are a little opaque to us right now.
So, I guess I'm going to say what I always say. I have faith in our systems. I believe in the way we do these things. And maybe they don't always create the outcomes that we want, but the way you -- the way you engender confidence in the public is to believe in the systems that have worked in this country for almost 250 years.
[16:40:00] HUNT: Yeah. I mean, I think the question, of course, is we've seen the president talk repeatedly about, you know, say directly to his attorney general, you know, I want this list of people, including Adam shifty Schiff is typically the nickname
he uses investigated.
And then this was Trump in October talking about Schiff. Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, you know, I'm not going to comment on that. I will just say Adam Schiff is one of the lowest forms of scum I've ever dealt with in politics. He's a horrible human being, very dishonest person. I have no idea what's going on. I hope it's true, but I don't know anything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: I mean, Mo, he seems to both be being careful about the legalities there, but also free to talk about, you know, Adam Schiff, the person and to bills point, if trust is going down in the apolitical nature of our system, its not irrelevant.
ELLEITHEE: No. Look, he is the president who has made it very clear that he sees the Department of Justice as a political wing of his -- of his agenda and to Bill's point about the erosion of trust. It's not just the sloppiness, right.
Like one of the reasons if this is just sloppiness, look at the number of career federal prosecutors that they have fired, that they have booted from the Department of Justice and replaced with people who were more politically aligned with the president.
Sometimes that has just bad political consequences. But other times you do see sloppiness. I mean, it was an embarrassment yesterday to the Department of Justice, to the very systems you're talking about that the that when the federal prosecutor and the Comey case, the U.S. attorney of all people had to admit that they screwed up on a on the most basic of things that any career prosecutor as, as I understand it, would and should know.
So, the undermining of the confidence. It didn't begin with Donald Trump. There has been an erosion of trust in all of our institutions, including the Department of Justice, over the past few decades. But man, if they're pouring gasoline on that fire --
JENNINGS: Let me ask you a question. Do you believe Schiff bears any responsibility for the overall erosion of trust? Because, look, Donald Trump obviously hates him, but it's not for any generic reason. It's for a specific reason, because he misled the American people for years and tried to convince and has convinced one whole political party that Russia stole the 2016 election. That's been his contention.
That's -- and he succeeded at it. That's not the truth. That's not what happened. But if you want to talk about erosion of trust, I don't know that you
could find anybody who's more guilty than Adam Schiff eroding trust in our political systems, he believes and made people believe that a foreign government stole our election in 2016. That was the core of his argument against Trump day one.
ELLEITHEE: The core of his argument was that a foreign government interfered in our elections, and Donald Trump's own intelligence community said the same exact thing during his first term.
But to your bigger question, I absolve nobody right now of complicity in the erosion of trust in our institutions. I think that that sort of escalating bad behavior over several decades and just a 10-year to people's concerns about our institutions is not a partisan issue. I do think this president has capitalized on it and is accelerating it even more.
But I absolve no one. I think all politicians have something to answer for in the erosion of trust.
HUNT: Cheerful. Cheerful situation all around.
All right. Coming up next, the rare event today that brought together a mix of Democrats and Republicans, except for a notable exception.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Dick was funny and funny and easygoing in a style that his public image never caught up with. Though we can all agree wasn't your standard issue politician. If any voters came hoping for a kind word and a hug --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:48:14]
(BEGIN VIDE CLIP)
FORMER REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): Though he was inspired to service by President Kennedy, Dick Cheney became a Republican, but he knew that bonds of party must always yield to the single bond we share as Americans. For him, a choice between defense of the Constitution and defense of your political party was no choice at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Earlier today, Liz Cheney, paying tribute to her father as politicians from both sides of the aisle gathered to pay their respects to Dick Cheney, the 46th vice president of the United States. Cheney died earlier this month due to complications of pneumonia and cardiac and vascular disease. And while he remains a controversial figure for his role as an architect of the Iraq war, in recent years, he spoke out against President Trump and he even voted for Kamala Harris last year. Sources tell CNN that neither President Donald Trump nor Vice
President J.D. Vance were invited to the service that was held this morning in Washington. The former president, George W. Bush, remembered his V.P. as a man who didn't have an agenda and believed in his country.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: This was a vice president totally devoted to protecting the United States and its interests. There was never any agenda or angle beyond that. You did not know Dick Cheney unless you understood his greatest concerns and ambitions were for his country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: All right. Our panel is back.
Mo, I have to say, I mean, as we have there have been a number of you know, prominent politicians, Republicans, John McCain among them, who have passed away in recent years, right, as the Trump era has continued to unfold. And many of these moments often feel like you are watching a previous order, kind of, you know, fade away.
[16:50:04]
And in this case, of course, neither the president nor the vice president sitting were invited here. Of course, Dick Cheney has this complicated history, especially for Democrats. I mean, he was mocked as Darth Vader, but I'm interested to know kind of your reflections on what a moment like this means for the country to have a figure like this laid to rest in this way.
His daughter, of course, Liz Cheney, having taken the national stage in the wake of the attack on the Capitol in January 6th.
ELLEITHEE: I mean, you're right. I mean, for a long period of time, there was no greater villain to Democrats than Dick Cheney. And a lot a large part because of the policies that he helped push through post nine over 9/11 into the Iraq War and I still abhor a lot of those policies, but I never questioned his patriotism. I never questioned that he was trying to do what he thought was best, even when I disagreed with that.
You saw an outpouring of support there. And you look at the people who came together to mourn his passing. You saw Democrats, you saw Republicans, you saw far left progressives, you saw far right conservatives all there.
And I do think it is -- it is -- we are seeing the passing of an era where people could feel that way. I wonder, 20 years from now, 30 years from now, if the political funerals we see will have the same sort of coming together, regardless of political ideology, regardless of political belief, to celebrate someone's role in public service, even those, especially those we disagree with.
HUNT: And we were seeing just a moment ago, the former presidents lined up there. George w. Bush, Joe Biden, the former vice president, Mike Pence, of course, who served under Donald Trump in his first term.
Scott Jennings, you worked for George W. Bush. And, of course, Dick Cheney was his vice president. You obviously have found a place in the orbit of the current president. I want to play what Dick Cheney, the ad that he had cut for his daughter, Liz. This was in 2022 about the current president of the United States.
Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DICK CHENEY, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: In our nation's 246-year history, there has never been an individual who is a greater threat to our republic than Donald Trump. He tried to steal the last election using lies and violence to keep himself in power after the voters had rejected him.
He is a coward. A real man wouldn't lie to his supporters. He lost his election and he lost big. I know it, he knows it. And deep down I think most Republicans know it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: How did you end up in such a different place over the intervening years?
JENNINGS: Well, look, I don't begrudge Dick Cheney supporting his daughter. I mean, he was always supportive of his daughters, even back, you know, during the campaigns that I worked on, you remember the cultural implications of that at the time. And he didn't care. He supported his family.
I wouldn't begrudge anybody to do that. I don't agree with his vote for Kamala Harris in 2024. I would remind you, though, that his support of Trump in 2016 actually came at quite a critical time. There were a lot of Republicans who were unsure about Donald Trump in 2016, and Cheney actually supported him. So he went on, you know, a little bit of a journey.
My view of him is that he protected America from radical Islamic terrorism. He was a good campaigner. He was the youngest White House chief of staff. He was a powerhouse in the House Republican majority. And over the course of his life, he was one of the most important Republican operators in helping achieve Republicans win political and policy victories.
He was at odds with President Trump at the end of his life, but I don't think that detracts from his service to the party, his service to the country and the fact that what President Bush said is true, he protected America. And I'm damn proud to have elected him vice president twice and worked in the White House, where he served.
HUNT: You heard it here first. The OG Scott Jennings has reappeared on CNN and the pre-Trump version of you, sir. Lulu, I know you covered these wars and have a different kind of way of looking at Cheney's legacy.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Well, you know, what I actually think is really fascinating is that we often say, oh, its Democrats who didn't support what Dick Cheney did in Iraq and in the wars on terror and Afghanistan, et cetera. But actually, one could argue and in fact, many have, that the -- that -- what Dick Cheney and George W. Bush did ushered in the Trump era because in fact, Donald Trump campaigned on changing the Republican Party from this party that was interested in foreign adventures and going out and spreading democracy across the world to a party that actually said, no, we need to look after America first.
HUNT: Very briefly, Bill.
STEPIEN: I'm a bit over, all over the map, too. I worked for Bush- Cheney in '04. I went to Wyoming to recruit Harriet Hageman and helped run her campaign to beat Liz Cheney. I hope we can all get together under one tent, Trump Republicans, Romney Republicans, Bush Republicans.
[16:55:03]
You know, I remember Trump was not invited to the McCain funeral. Meghan McCain was in the oval office this year. So I live in hope.
JENNINGS: You know, what's interesting is that I know people, and Bill does, too. We work with Republicans all over the country who proudly voted for George W. Bush and Dick Cheney twice and proudly voted for Donald Trump three times. I think there's more of a through line of continuity in the Republicans than people think.
HUNT: All right, fair enough.
All right. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HUNT: Thanks very much to my panel. Really appreciate you all being here. Thanks to all of you at home for watching as well.
Don't forget, you can now stream THE ARENA live or catch up whenever you want in the CNN app. Just scan that QR code below. You can also catch up by listening to our podcast. Follow the show on X and Instagram @TheArenaCNN.
Jake Tapper is standing by for "THE LEAD".
Hi, Jake.
