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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt

Trump Claims He's Canceling Anything Biden Signed Via Autopen; Trump Vows To Halt Immigration From "Third World Countries"; Zelenskyy's Chief Of Staff Resigns, Peace Talks Stalled. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired November 28, 2025 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:06]

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN HOST: All right. Different from the Louvre heist, but escargot, find those snails.

"THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT" starts right now.

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MANU RAJU, CNN HOST: I'm Manu Raju in Washington.

Welcome to THE ARENA. Kasie Hunt is off today.

Right now, President Trump again going after his predecessor, former President Joe Biden. The current president posting online within the last hour that any document signed by the former president while he was in office is, quote, "hereby terminated and of no further force or of effect". He goes on to allege that Biden was not involved in what he called the, quote, autopen process, and that if he says he were involved, that Biden will be brought up on perjury charges.

This news is just breaking and there are a lot of questions. Perhaps most importantly, if the president even has the authority to do this, or just what orders could be or would be impacted if he is indeed successful.

So, let's get off the sidelines and go into THE ARENA. My panel is here, along with CNN senior White House correspondent Kristen Holmes, who is in West Palm Beach, where the president spent the Thanksgiving holiday.

So, Kristen, former President Biden's use of the autopen, of course, has been a frequent topic for this president, but he's going much, much further here.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. And look, there are a lot of questions here, as you noted. I mean, there's legalities involved. And talking about what this would even apply to. I mean, Trump in this Truth Social post says that its 92 percent of things that Biden signed. He used the autopen. It's unclear where he got that percentage.

And again, the legality of all this. Can he just undo what Biden did? I would assume the answer is no. But of course, we're still talking to lawyers to figure out what exactly is, if anything, possible here.

Now, as you've noted, President Trump has been fixated on this idea of Biden using the autopen to the point where he actually changed his portrait. Bidens portrait, in his presidential walk of fame to an autopen there. And he has said, both privately and publicly, that he believes that this autopen is going to be the biggest scandal that the country has seen.

Now, a couple of things. You talk a little bit about what happens if Biden pushes back and says he was part of the process, he'll get charged with perjury. That's what Trump says in this Truth Social.

Well, we know Biden has already pushed back on this idea. He has said that everything that all the use of the autopen was completely aboveboard, that he knew everything that was going on while he was president. It wasn't the people around him. He was making the decisions. Even if they were using the autopen.

So, what exactly does that mean for this so-called perjury charge? And what happens next there? And the other part of this, of course, being that President Trump has called for an investigation already into Biden's use of the autopen and at one point essentially said that anything that he signed should be null and void. Again, as you noted, this is taking it a huge step further, saying that it is null and void and that everything is going to be reversed.

We are still reaching out to White House officials, as well as to lawyers, to figure out if there is anything that this means in the legal sense, and also in terms of the White House, what they're specifically looking at, if anything, when it comes to reversing decisions that were signed by Biden using this autopen.

RAJU: Yeah, a lot of questions. If you get any of those answers, we'll bring you right back up. Kristen Holmes live for us, traveling with the president. Thank you so much.

My panel is here in THE ARENA, including CNN political analyst and investigative reporter for "The New York Times", David Fahrenthold; contributing columnist at "The Boston Globe", Eugene Scott; CNN political commentator Xochitl Hinojosa; and Republican strategist Melik Abdul.

We're also joined by Donald Trump's former attorney, Bill Brennan, who is live with us as well.

Bill, thank you so much for joining us.

I want to start with you. And about whether Trump even has the authority to do this. He's saying he can do this. Can he actually do this legally?

WILLIAM J. BRENNAN, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR DONALD TRUMP: Manu, it's my understanding that the autopen has been around since around 1930.

2011, President Barack Obama first used it in a high value document. It was three sections of the Patriot Act that he wanted extended by Congress. Unfortunately, he was in France at the time. He used it. It was valid.

In 2005, President George W. Bush asked the Department of Justice for an opinion, and the DOJ said at that time, under certain circumstances the use of an autopen is legally sufficient.

I think the real issue here, Manu, is going to be the enter. Whether or not President Biden knew that the documents that were signed with the autopen were used, if he knew and he approved it, then I think it passes muster.

RAJU: Because the president is saying that Biden will be charged with perjury. What basis does he have for making that charge?

BRENNAN: Well, perjury is lying under oath.

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I think -- I don't know that if President Biden made a statement that he approved the autopen, that perjury would be applicable here. There's no doubt that the autopen itself is a document that can be -- is a device that can be used. It's all going to depend on circumstances --

RAJU: Oh, Bill, I think we lost Bill's feed there. It might have fallen there on the ground, but we'll bring him right back because he's got some good analysis here.

Xochitl, I'm going to start with you because you have worked at the DOJ before.

XOCHITL HINOJOSA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah.

RAJU: This is what Bill was referring to. There was a 2005 legal opinion from George W. Bush's office of legal counsel within the Justice Department. He says, we emphasize that we are not suggesting that the president may delegate the decision to approve and sign a bill, only that having made this decision, he may direct a subordinate to affix the president's signature to the bill, basically saying autopen A-okay.

And we've seen Obama do it. We saw Trump do it. Does Biden do it? What is the -- what are the implications of this?

HINOJOSA: Well, I -- and I think that there are two, two things he's talking about here. He's talking about executive orders. If Trump would like to undo executive orders, like, for example, prescription drug costs and all sorts of pieces of policy that Biden did to lower costs for families, if Trump wanted to do that, he could do that. But I think that that would be an unpopular thing for Trump to reverse each and every one of them. He would have to unwind them.

When it comes to Bidens pardons, he cannot undo those pardons. Those pardons are sound, whether or not he used the autopen.

I think what people will also look at is whether is you talk about his mental acuity, whether or not Biden was making decisions for himself. Can I just say, I don't think anyone in the White House was telling Joe Biden to pardon his family. I am pretty sure that that is a decision that is a very personal decision made by the president of the United States. And so, I think it's interesting how what he's saying about this, because at the end of the day, the most controversial pardon was his family. And you can guarantee Joe Biden made that decision.

RAJU: Yeah. And as Bill was saying, if the president Biden says that he did it, then how do you charge him with perjury? And Trump is just throwing out perjury. We're going to charge him with perjury.

MELIK ABDUL, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Yeah. So that's a very, very good point that he's talking about executive orders. And I think people should realize I was looking at the numbers. And by February, Donald Trump had already rescinded about 40 percent of Joe Biden's executive orders.

This is something that all presidents do. They can rescind an executive order. You know, I'll be the Trump whisperer here. And I for real, this is actually more of a rhetorical device for Donald Trump. I can pretty much assure you that the 77, the majority of the 77 million people who voted for Donald Trump don't care about the autopen. This is something that is specific to Donald Trump, and I don't think that its going to be anything that comes out of this.

Yes, it may be some things, you know, if there is something more, you know, more than maybe executive orders or pardons or something. But I don't think that there's anything going to come out of this. And this is one of those instances where Donald Trump just kind of throws out a bit of red meat, but only to the base. And it's not something that resonates with the majority of the country.

RAJU: So, distraction tactic?

EUGENE SCOTT, CONTRIBUTING COLUMNIST, BOSTON GLOBE: I was definitely going to say, you've heard us say repeatedly that every accusation is something rooted in what perhaps is happening with the president himself. There's been quite a bit of reporting this week suggesting that President Trump does not work as much or as hard as he would like people to think. And so, he's pivoting and saying, you know what? I'm -- Biden works even less. And so, that's where we are right now. That's the talking point.

We know that what happened yesterday, unfortunately sent him on a spiral, and he's thinking about immigration and now these other issues that he blames Biden for. And this is where he is right now. And the week's not even over yet.

RAJU: And he's been really -- Trump has been obsessed about some of these pardons that came late in the Joe Biden presidency.

This is what he said when he was in that famous event. Every year, the president pardons the turkeys. He said this taking a swipe at Joe Biden.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Sleepy Joe Biden, he used an auto last year for the turkey's pardon. So, I have the official duty to determine, and I have determined that last year's turkey pardons are totally invalid, as are the pardons of about every other person that was pardoned other than -- where's Hunter? No, Hunter's was good.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: I mean, what happens now if Trump is indeed saying he's going to pull those pardons back, and then are they going to go and charge the Biden family?

DAVID FAHRENTHOLD, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: So, here's what's interesting to me. The beginning of this term, this Trump term, what stood out from the last term was that when Trump said something, something actually happened behind it, the administration would come along and make that into law. Even weird things like, we're going to call it the Gulf of America. Remember the effort they put in to make sure people said, Gulf of America?

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What we're seeing now is a return to what happened in the first term, which is like you can just ignore a lot of what Trump said. A lot of what Trump says is even things that sound like they have the force of law that even say like this has the force of law. His administration sort of ignores life just goes on without it. I think that's what this we're starting to see more of that, that he says things that sound very official, but there's no follow up. Nobody comes along behind him. He's exceeded the capacity of his administration or the interest of his administration to actually follow up on what he says.

RAJU: I want to ask Bill Brennan that question.

Bill, you're back with us here is do you think that this is just Trump just throwing something out there and trying to change the news cycle? Or do you think they're actually going to follow through on this?

You used to represent him. What do you think that is behind this? This is an actual policy that they're going to implement.

BRENNAN: I think when President Trump says things, he usually means them. But I do think Article Two of the Constitution permits presidential pardons. And I think when a president, be it President Trump, President Biden or any other president says, I pardon, you know, X or Y citizen, that pardon is effective now whether its open or not, I think it's still effective. If for some reason a pardon would have been signed by an autopen and it can be proven that the sitting president didn't know about it or approve it, that's a whole different deal.

But I don't think that the, the affixation of the signature by the president himself or by a device called the autopen with his approval, is going to move the needle as far as legitimacy of pardon. RAJU: So, it sounds like just overall, though, bill, do you think this

is kind of a long shot for Trump to be successful in trying to nullify all these Biden actions? Is that right? Do you think this is a long shot?

BRENNAN: Well, Manu, President Trump throws a lot of Hail Mary passes, but a number of them connect. So, you know, I would never count them out.

RAJU: Well, okay. So, okay, let me just draw that out further. So, let's just say he connects on this. What are the implications here. Because Obama signed a bunch of stuff with autopen Biden did Trump did in the first term as well. He's actually done some auto pens, I believe, in this year. I mean, what are the implications for everything that's been signed via autopen? If Trump were actually successful in going this route?

BRENNAN: Well, I think it's highly unlikely based on the 2005 DOJ opinion and the limited -- I mean, limited case law on autopen that there would be a blanket invalidation of all autopens, and if there was, and that's very unlikely that it would be retroactive. I think that it would have to be some situation where an official, in this case, a sitting president, had his signature affixed to a document, be it a pardon, for example, and didn't approve it or didn't know about it. I think that's going to be very unlikely.

RAJU: All right. Let's see the Hail Mary. Let's see if they are connected or if many Hail Marys often do. They are not completed. So, we will see what happens there.

Bill Brennan, thank you so much for joining me today and the rest of my panel. We'll be back with you as well. Stand by.

Coming up in THE ARENA, a pivotal election is just days away. And you actually may have never heard of it. Why? Republicans are suddenly pouring money and resources to protect what should be a pretty safe seat in the House.

But first, President Trump again ramping up his immigration crackdown after the shooting of two National Guard soldiers just blocks from the White House.

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RAJU: Right now, President Trump accelerating his anti-immigration crackdown following a deadly shooting just blocks from the White House. The president saying online that he will, quote, "permanently pause migration from all third world countries". It's not exactly clear at the moment which countries will be targeted. The president's latest moves coming after officials identified an Afghan national as a suspect that shot two National Guard members in the nation's capital.

One of those soldiers, 20-year-old Sarah Beckstrom, was killed in the shooting. The other 24-year-old, Andrew Wolfe, remains in critical condition at the hospital.

Let's bring in CNN correspondent Brian Todd, and CNN chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst John Miller.

Brian, to you first. What more are we learning about the victim?

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Manu, we have an incremental update on the situation regarding Andrew Wolfe, the 24-year-old guardsman who remains at a local hospital. According to a spokesperson for the Joint Task Force D.C., which oversees the National Guard deployment here in Washington, Wolfe does remain in critical condition at a local hospital. And the spokesperson said they were not -- they were not aware at the moment of any pending surgeries or other procedures for Wolfe, but they're working to nail that down.

So, we hope to get some new information regarding Andrew Wolfe and maybe the unit he's being treated in and other things regarding his treatment. In the meantime, our colleague Gabe Cohen spoke to a gentleman named Andrew Carr, who was the former boyfriend of Sarah Beckstrom, the guard member who was killed in the shooting. They lived in West Virginia and Gabe asked the former boyfriend what Sarah Beckstrom felt about her deployment to Washington.

Take a listen.

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GABE COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Did she believe in the mission of being there? Did she think it was important, or did she think it they didn't belong there, the West Virginia National Guard?

ADAM CARR, SARAH BECKSTROM'S FORMER BOYFRIEND: It was mixed. She got deputized in there, and they gave them no rights to do anything. She was like, people spit towards us, cuss at us, throw things at us, and we can't do nothing. She couldn't detain nobody. She couldn't stop them from doing wrong. It was like a -- they told them to call the cops.

She wanted to make the difference. She wanted to -- extremely, she was happy with it. And she just was also like, why am I here if I can't do nothing? Were they limited them so much? She's like, it's pointless.

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She's like, I get why we're here. Crime is bad, but it's pointless if we can't do anything.

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TODD: And that was Adam Carr, the former boyfriend of Sarah Beckstrom. I'm sorry. I mistakenly called him Andrew Carr a moment ago. His name is Adam Carr, and that's what he told our Gabe Cohen a short time ago today about Sarah Beckstrom and how she felt about being deployed to Washington.

And here at the shooting scene, which we've been -- you know, we've been kind of scouring and covering the canvasing of this scene since yesterday. Take a look at this makeshift memorial. It has really grown exponentially since yesterday. Just a couple of bundles of flowers were here yesterday, but now, you've got several more bundles of flowers. Youve got notes, flags, wreaths over here.

And I want to have our photojournalist Kim Yule (ph). Zoom into that vase of flowers there on the ledge just above it. You see the vase of flowers there. There's a -- there's an American flag patch. And also, two challenge coins that military members and law enforcement are, you know, apt to exchange with each other at various occasions.

We talked to a young marine who placed those there, and he kind of put all of this in perspective. He was, you know, solemnly remembering Sarah Beckstrom and kind of paying homage to her. But he told us that he really finds it, quote, disgusting in his words, that both sides of the political aisle have tried to paint the blame for this on the other. He said, really, now is the time to recognize that a young service member has lost her life -- Manu.

RAJU: No question about it -- Brian, thank you.

And, John Miller, what do we know about the state of this investigation and about the suspect's motivation?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, first, condolences to the family of Sarah Beckstrom and prayers for Andrew Wolfe, the sergeant who's still fighting. As for the investigation into the suspect, Rahmanullah Lakanwal, this is an FBI process that I'm familiar with from my own work in the Joint Terrorism Task Force in New York, where when the motive isn't jumping out right from the beginning of the case, you really have to start to peel back that individuals life one page at a time, starting at the moment of the crime and going back a day, a week, a month, years, if it's -- if it's necessary.

They're looking right now at his social media. They have subpoenaed his records from a number of Internet providers in terms of email and message services. They conducted a search warrant at the Bellingham, Washington, home where they seized a number of electronic devices, which they will try to exploit by mirroring the hard drives and going through what's in those machines, including anything that may have been deleted that could still be living in ones and zeros?

You know, at the bottom of a file, they've really got to go back through that to find out the mindset in interviewing friends. They interviewed each one of his five children, his spouse, people around him, neighbors, former employers. You know, what they are emerging with is a picture of an individual had mental health challenges, suffered from PTSD, according to him, stemming from the fighting he did in a CIA sponsored and trained unit that was one of the zero units of Afghan special forces that went after valuable targets, members of the Taliban, the Haqqani network, al Qaeda in the Kandahar region.

So, they're really, have a long path in front of them to try and figure this out since so far, as far as I know from my sources, they haven't found a communique, a claim of responsibility, or that smoking gun that points directly to a motive.

RAJU: All right. Brian Todd, thank you. Just so many questions. As Andrew Wolfe fights for his life, and a nation mourns Sarah Beckstrom. Thank you for that report.

Bringing it here in the room about the president's response, because he has had a lot to say, really going much further in a lot of ways on even for Trump when it comes to immigration, going as far as saying taking away green cards or reexamining, I mean, these are people who are here in the country legally legal, permanent residents. He's talking about imposing some sort of loyalty test as well.

Can he actually do any of this? Do you expect him to do this? Because it is very, very far reaching, to say the least.

FAHRENTHOLD: Well, you have to remember, were at a moment where he's already pushing the U.S. immigration system to its limits to deport people who are here illegally. You know, we're ramped up a huge amount of deportations. Immigration courts are pushed to the limit. So there's not a lot of slack in the system to take on this new mission, which, as you said, would involve taking back documents legally given to people.

What's interesting to me is the fact that he's like this person, this alleged gunman was a very specific kind of immigrant, someone who had worked with the U.S. forces in Afghanistan, came to the U.S. under a special program meant for folks who had served with our military. So, to take someone who is in that category and then say, this is a reason to pause all immigration or all immigration from the third world or whatever term you want to use, it seems like he's extrapolating a really special case that is more tied to the U.S. policy and trying to push it out and say -- well, this is what I was right about all along.

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This is the thing I've been talking about all along, when it's really not.

RAJU: And he's going as far as -- really going after all refugees in a lot of ways.

SCOTT: Yeah, refugees, people here on green cards, the list is pretty extensive. And, you know, he's looking to solve a problem that a lot of Americans -- an issue that a lot of Americans do believe that it's a real problem. Like we know that President Trump right now is enjoying very low approval ratings.

But one of the areas where he is over 50 percent is how he's handling immigration. And so, I think he thinks that if I just lean into that and go really hard, that is something that will be well-received. But he's reaching into areas that aren't destined -- that aren't determined to give him an answer to what we know needs to be fixed.

RAJU: Well, I want to ask you about the president. Some of the president's language last night on truth social, he said that the president he went on this really this tirade. First, he went after refugees from Somalia said they're, quote, taking

over Minnesota. He went over after Congresswoman Ilhan Omar referred to her as a congresswoman slash congressman/woman and criticized her for wearing a hijab. And then he called Tim Walz, the governor of Minnesota, retarded. That was the language from president of the United States on Thanksgiving night.

You're the Republican in the room. Can you defend that?

ABDUL: No, and I never do. This is one of those instances -- and Donald Trump is known to say things that are, you know, a bit inappropriate. But in this case and I and what Donald Trump needs to realize is that he actually has a higher approval rating of actually, I was looking than Kamala Harris and a number of other Democrats that are out there. But the problem that Donald Trump has is that that he speaks to a very small base.

So, I was one of those who said when I saw it on yesterday, I was like, oh, bro, you got to be kidding me now because he said something I think was swaddling -- she was in swaddling hijab. Like you're using the image that we usually associate with Christmas and Christ and Jesus. And you're saying that as swaddling hijab.

What Donald Trump needs to understand. and I think for him he says that, you know, I've been doing all of these things all along. I was reelected. People know that this is the type of stuff that I do.

But the problem that it creates is down ballot. So, what happens to the Republican Party, not Donald Trump, but what happens to the Republican Party? And I think that Donald Trump needs to also be focused as much as he is on his own approval rating and MAGA on the rest of the party down ballot, because these are one of the things that people say over and over again that they just do not like.

RAJU: And how seriously is a Democrat are you taking these threats to go after green cards, to pause migration from these countries and the like?

HINOJOSA: Yeah.

RAJU: Is he -- is this Trump talk or is this Trump reality?

HINOJOSA: It's Trump reality. I think Donald Trump has used the Supreme Court and the shadow docket a ton when it comes to legal immigration. And those who are here in specifically TPS, et cetera., to get what he wants when he does it and on process, not necessarily on merits.

And I think that he will push the limit here. He will try to do all these things. It will be challenged. We'll see what happens.

The one thing I will say is no one wants this to happen again. I think we can all agree we want this to stop. The problem here is that limiting migration or trying to kick people out of the country is not the solution. One of the things that I and John Miller kind of talked about, the Joint Terrorism Task Force, one of the things is most of the national security infrastructure within the federal government no longer exists or has moved to immigration enforcement and not on terrorism anymore.

And that is the thing that worries me the most, instances like this. Could the FBI -- could they have stopped this from happening if they had those agents in place, if they had people in place that deal with terrorism to stop that attack from occurring? And I think that that's what members of Congress should really be asking this administration now, because the solution is ensuring that we are safe as a country and ensuring that the national security apparatus is put back together so that we can stop these things from happening in the future.

RAJU: And just on the politics of this, because Eugene mentioned that Trump has done well on this issue of immigration, is, of course, an issue that he campaigned hard on time and time again. He has had done pretty well for the most part, according to public opinion polls. But there are signs that the American public is getting a bit squeamish, shall we say, over some of the actions that they have taken, including these ICE raids and the like.

Question to the poll has been Trump -- this "New York Times"/Siena College poll, recent one, have Trump's immigration how far they have gone. Too far, 51 percent of the American public believe that he has gone too far. Not far enough, just 12 percent and only 35 percent are about right. How big of a risk is this for Trump politically, given that the public is seeing what they're what Trump is doing in a majority don't seem to be liking it.

FAHRENTHOLD: I think it is a risk, and I think it's -- Eugene is right that Trump came in with a lot of room to run. A lot of people were really unhappy with Biden's immigration policies. But if you're going farther than Trump said he was going to go, Trump said he was going to deport the criminals, deport the bad element.

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Now, we've seen images of people being daycare teachers being hauled out of their daycare, people being arrested at their kids' schools. People didn't -- feel like they didn't sign up for that.

And if you pair that with this being a moment where people feel like Trump's economic policies are either not helping them or hurting them, those are the sort of the twin pillars of his election last year, I think going too far in immigration is an even greater risk for him and the Republicans.

RAJU: Is that a problem in the midterms, potentially, if the majority of the public thinks that he's gone too far, is it a problem for Republicans?

ABDUL: Absolutely. And it's really not just about immigration. It's about all -- everything that Donald Trump has done since he's been in office now because if you listen to people, there's a lot of support. When he said he was going to shut the border down, he shut it down. But it's how you go about it. And so, when I'm talking to people, you know, say, well, I don't

always agree with everything that you say, but you make a very good point, Donald Trump, what you hear over and over again is that we prefer the scalpel as opposed to the sledgehammer.

Well, Donald Trump, he did more so in the first term. 1.0 always say, that was more of a scalpel this time around. It is a sledgehammer. And when you get into that, especially as we head into the midterm cycle, when those that same economic anxieties that elected Donald Trump, they will exist during the midterm cycle. And we're going to have to have an answer for that. And I am convinced that him being tough on immigration will not be one of those things that will drive people to the polls.

RAJU: Yes, sledgehammer is a good way to explain Donald Trump's policies, particularly in this term.

All right. Coming up next in THE ARENA, how the abrupt resignation of Ukraine's top peace negotiators impacting any chance of a deal to stop the war.

Plus, why Republicans are growing increasingly anxious about potentially losing an election on Tuesday in a deep red spot of a deep red state.

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STATE REP. AFTYN BEHN (D), TENNESSEE: We have to make this race about what it means to reclaim that we're Tennesseans, reclaim a future because if we can flip this seat here, deep in the heart of Tennessee, we won't just make history. We'll ignite it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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RAJU: New developments today involving a big shakeup that could impact the fight to end Russia's war in Ukraine. A top aide to President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is abruptly resigning, Andriy Yermak. He was Zelenskyy's chief of staff and has often been seen as a second most powerful person in Ukraine. Until recently, he had been leading the Ukrainian delegation during recent peace talks in Geneva and Washington.

He stepped down just hours after anti-corruption agencies raided his home. Those agencies are not giving a reason for the search, but it comes two weeks after they announced a sweeping investigation into an alleged kickback scheme over the country's critical energy infrastructure.

Let me bring in retired General Wesley Clark. He's the former NATO supreme allied commander.

Wesley -- General Clark, thank you so much for being with me today. Really appreciate it.

So, what do you think? What are the impacts here of the -- this resignation? Because Andriy Yermak he has been someone who has been heavily involved in these peace negotiations, and now, he's forced to resign. So, what is going to be the impact here of these critical talks at this key juncture?

CLARK: I don't think there's going to be as much impact as people think, because no matter what the negotiators conclude, it has to go back to the Rada in Ukraine. And honestly, they're not going to concede territory. They're not going to give up on NATO membership and so forth.

So really, President Zelenskyy himself doesn't have the power to sign an agreement without it going to the Rada. And the Rada is very strong on this.

So, there'll be someone else who consider these negotiations and do the best they can. But the truth is, we have to look at this as part of Russia's big strategy. The strategy is a fourfold strategy. It tries to break the will of the Ukrainian people by its bombardments and attacks on energy.

It goes after the front line with its meat attacks. It uses diplomacy to divide friends and allies. The United States from Ukraine, U.S. from Europe and so forth. And it uses corruption as a weapon. And in Russia, of course, the intelligence agencies are closely intertwined with the mafia. They all participate in the corruption. And I suspect it will find much of this corruption has its roots in Russia.

RAJU: I want to ask you about some other big news involving Ukraine this week. There was this phone call that occurred between Steve Witkoff, who is a top presidential envoy, dealing with this in a top Kremlin aide. Bloomberg got a copy of a transcript of his phone call. It appeared to be a pretty buddy-buddy phone call. It appeared to be giving tips to the top Kremlin aide about how to talk to President Trump and how to deal with these negotiations.

I'm wondering first on the leak itself, what is the impact of the leak itself coming right as this peace deal is at this key point. Do you think it's going to undercut these talks in any way?

CLARK: Well, the leak itself is an indication to many in the world that the Trump administration has leaned in the direction of Russia. In other words, if you want a peace agreement, really hard, really badly -- well, Ukraine is the weaker party. They're dependent on you, so you squeeze them.

This is the long record of American diplomacy, to be honest with you. We did it in South Vietnam. We squeezed the South Vietnamese president and he said, if I sign this agreement, it's going to destroy my country.

We said, sign it anyway. He did. The country was destroyed. We did the same in Afghanistan.

And, you know, if we really wanted a just and sustainable peace, we have to put more pressure on Russia.

[16:40:02]

But that's more difficult. And so, it's easier to lean on Ukraine. What this leak did is it made it seem as though that's what the administration is doing. Now, this is an agreement that's a long way from being finished. It may turn out to be totally balanced. And there's nothing wrong with buddy-buddy talking with a -- with a negotiator, as long as you realize it's not his, him you're trying to please. It's your own country you're trying to please and your country's interests.

RAJU: Yeah.

CLARK: I don't have anything -- any problem with the thing?

RAJU: And to that point --

CLARK: But it's about the substance of the agreement right now, Russia has made no concessions. They must make concessions.

RAJU: Yeah. I want to ask you just about the agreement in a second, but just on the buddy-buddy nature of it, because one of the lines in this transcript got a lot of attention from Witkoff when he says, I have the deepest respect, he tells this Kremlin aide, according to this transcript, I have, quote, I have the deepest respect for President Putin.

So, what is your reaction, hearing that given everything that Putin has done?

CLARK: Well, honestly, if the ordinary person heard it, they would be appalled. President Putin is a liar, a murderer, an intelligence agent, and he's the leading power behind Russia's war of aggression. So how can you respect him?

But when you're going through diplomacy, you might say things like that. And it might make it easier to nail a hard line with your negotiating opponent rather than saying, you know, Putin's a dirty dog. Now let's do a deal. Instead, you say he's a great statesman, well, let's do a deal.

And so, you know, that's just part of it. I don't object to that. The real issue is what's the substance of the agreement?

RAJU: Yeah.

CLARK: And if you want a just and sustainable peace, Russia has to make concessions. And those concessions are nowhere in this agreement.

RAJU: Yeah. And, you know, the agreement is still not finalized yet. And you mentioned some of the things that have been discussed. We'll see what ultimately gets agreed to.

But Putin himself, he wants land in eastern Ukraine. He wants a guarantee that Ukraine won't get membership in NATO. He wants limits on Ukraine's military. He wants assurances that NATO will not expand eastward. So, let's just say that gets part of this final deal. What are the implications if that is inked in this final peace agreement?

CLARK: Implications are probably a year, maybe two-year pause, maybe President Trump gets a Nobel Peace Prize and then war begins again in Europe.

RAJU: So, we're also learning that this past hour that Marco Rubio, the secretary of state, is planning to skip next week's NATO foreign ministers meeting in Brussels. What does that tell you, if anything?

CLARK: I think from the beginning, the administration has tried to take a distance from Europe. I think it's a mistake, really a fundamental mistake in U.S. foreign policy. And I think it's not just this administration. The Biden administration also, and the Obama administration believe that somehow you could pivot away from Europe and say to Europe, hey, your big boys, you should take care of yourselves.

But the truth is, the United States needs Europe if we're going to manage China. We can't walk away from Europe. We have to be deeply engaged with Europe. They have to be engaged with us. And then with the combined populations, trade, investment and technology, then we've got a real chance of having a balance in the world against China.

Otherwise, no, we're going to be worried about Venezuela and the Dominican Republic or Colombia forever, and China and Russia will handle Europe, and that will be very bad for the United States.

RAJU: All right. General Wesley Clark, thank you so much for providing your expertise and your insight from a lovely day in Arkansas, looks like in in late fall.

CLARK: Thank you.

RAJU: Thanks so much for being here.

CLARK: Thanks.

RAJU: Coming up, you'll never guess who's reportedly getting involved in the last-minute sprint for votes in a small race with big implications. We're talking about a special election in Tennessee and whether Republicans will squeak out a win, or if Democrats will supercharge their recent momentum.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:48:38]

RAJU: Welcome back to THE ARENA.

Coming off sweeping wins in this past months off year elections, Democrats next week are hoping to eke out one last win before the 2026 midterms. This in a special election in Tennessee's seventh congressional district, jockeying to fill the House seat are Democratic State Representative Aftyn Bayne and the Trump-endorsed Republican Matt Van Epps.

While Tennessee's seventh district is historically deep, red Democrats are hoping heavy spending and a focus on affordability the same message that brought them this month's electoral victories will give them an opening for what would be a massive upset victory.

My panel is back.

So, first, we're learning now that Trump and Mike Johnson are having a tele-rally on Monday. This is Trump's -- the second tele-rally. This new reporting coming from "Axios". But this is one reason why perhaps they're nervous is look at the balance of power in the United States House.

Look, it's already been a very divided House Republican-led House, 219 to 213 okay. That's very narrow. There are three vacancies likely to go to Democrats. So, 219 to 216.

Okay, then let's say that there is Marjorie Taylor Greene. She decides she's resigning on January, 218 to 216. And then if they somehow pull off this victory, we have an evenly divided House until they fill Marjorie Taylor Greene seat.

[16:50:03]

If you're Mike Johnson, you're sweating bullets right now.

FAHRENTHOLD: Yeah. This is a fascinating race. And I think the problem for House Republicans is what can they point to? What can they point to that they've done? They've been lackeys for Trump, sort of proud lackeys for Trump. Trump has been saying he's the speaker for so long.

So, if that's your record, we just do whatever Trump wants. It's hard to go out and run if Trump himself is not the pull that he once was, right? If Trump's just doing tele rallies for you, like basically a phone call, you know, if you're not out campaigning with Trump, it's hard to run on anything else. I think we're seeing the limits of Mike Johnson's approach right here.

RAJU: What do you think? Republicans are going to lose this race?

ABDUL: No, I don't think that Republicans are going to lose. And I think sometimes we may make bigger deals out of this. I think of what happened in that the last election cycle in New Jersey, Republicans were kind of excited about the possibility of winning New Jersey. But the last Republican that won New Jersey, the governor's seat was Chris Christie.

So, some of these really it's about the markers, the momentum. What's it going to look like heading into the midterm cycle. And so, these are sort of things, you know, you say to yourself, well, you know what. We may have a little juice here, but a lot of these races are more localized than nationalized.

And I think that's something that both parties have to look at when we're saying, oh, wow, this could be a possibility. Because remember the red wave that actually wasn't a couple of years ago. We kind of see these things happen over and over again, but I think we're ultimately going to win it.

RAJU: But this is why it's interesting because you look at the election results from Tennessee back in '20, in this district from 2024, Trump beat Harris handily here, 22 points. That's the same Mark Green, who is the incumbent Republican who is resigning. He won by a similar margin this past year.

And now there is concern it could be much closer. And Democrats have overperformed in a number of special elections just this past year. This is the message from the two candidates in this race and the closing days here. And it's one that we've heard in recent weeks.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BEHN: We all know the system is rigged in Washington. Here's how it works. Politicians make it easy for their rich donors. Tax cuts for billionaires and burying the Epstein files while hardworking Tennesseans get a rough ride by cutting health care for Tennessee families, doubling health insurance premiums and tariffs that hurt our economy.

AD ANNOUNCER: Nine combat tours a true American hero.

MATT VAN EPPS (R), TENNESSEE CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE: Now I'm on a new mission to bring down prices, create good paying jobs, and lower health care costs for working families.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: I mean, you hear the Republican talking about affordability and lowering health care costs.

SCOTT: You have to. Nashville, middle Tennessee is ranked in the top 20 of most expensive, like, areas in the country. These issues that people think are New York-based and D.C.-based and San Francisco, are hitting red America.

And many of the voters who have backed Republicans in the past are filling in as well. It's a red district. About half of it's rural, but closer to the city. Youve got those inner ring suburbs that we know have historically helped determine some of these hard races, when these voters try to figure out what is most important, and we've seen them repeatedly say affordability is what's most important.

RAJU: You know, Kamala Harris was just here campaigning too. And some Democrats don't understand that.

HINOJOSA: I don't understand that decision.

RAJU: You don't?

HINOJOSA: No, I don't understand that decision. This is -- this is a seat that shouldn't be in play. And regardless of what we want to say about it, it's a plus-20 district, as you just saw, having a presidential candidate that did not win last time is probably not the best surrogate to come in, especially someone who did not win.

RAJU: That lost by 22.

HINOJOSA: That lost by 22.

But one thing that stood out to me about that balance of power thing is now we know -- we know exactly why they tried to do these redistricting efforts all across the country. It's Republicans are terrified not only for what the balance of power looks like in January. What does it look like next November?

And so, it will be interesting to see, given how close the balance of power is going to be when they pick up the seats, where are we going to go and which states are going to continue to try with their redistricting efforts in order to change that power?

RAJU: And one of the reasons why is the motivation. This is a national poll from CNN about asking which party is extremely motivated to vote in the next election. That was in late October. Democrats in this poll, 21-point advantage. Now we'll see if that carries through to Tuesday, carries through to the midterms next year. But as a Republican, what do you think of when you see a number like that?

ABDUL: Well, it's always something that we should be concerned about. And typically, of course, the party that's not in power typically gains seats. So, you know, everything that's happening now, we can't point, even though I understand why Republicans do it. You know I'll do it, too.

But at the end of the day, Donald Trump is president of the United States. And so, one of the things that we have to be concerned about, even in the midterm cycle, and I'll say it, and I know everybody kind of denies it.

No, MAGA is not dead. But there is a rift in MAGA. And so, with Donald Trump not being on the ballot next year, we don't know what that's going to look like.

RAJU: Yeah, very quickly. Who's going to win?

[16:55:00]

SCOTT: I don't know, but I do think turnout is going to be higher than people think for Democrats.

RAJU: Yeah. And turnout obviously always key. But in an off year special election, who knows how it will be.

All right. One programing note, I'm actually going to be talking with a Democrat in this race this Sunday after Maine on "INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY". That's at 8:00 a.m. and 11:00 a.m. Eastern, right here on CNN.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) RAJU: Thanks so much to my panel.

You can now stream THE ARENA live or catch up wherever you want in the CNN app. And just scan the QR code below. You can also catch up by listening to THE ARENA's podcast.

Boris Sanchez is standing by for "THE LEAD" right now.

Boris, take it away.