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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt

Is The White House Being Forced To Shift Tone On Minneapolis?; Trump Claims He Will "De-Escalate" Amid Backlash Over Pretti Killing; Don Lemon Among Journalists Arrested Over Minnesota Protest; Trump Breaks With NRA, Faults Pretti For Carrying Gun; Reagan Addressed Nation Following Challenger's Disaster; How Important Is A President's Role As Comforter-In-Chief?; New Book Looks At Achieving "Deep Satisfaction" In A Chaotic World; 6-Time Super Bowl Champ Bill Belichick Snubbed By HOF. Aired 12-1p ET

Aired January 31, 2026 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:13]

KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR: Hi everyone, I'm Kasie Hunt. Welcome to The Arena Saturday. Is the moment we find ourselves in now as a country of such consequence that even a president who has famously never liked to back down, being forced to at least sound like he is?

From outrage over the killing of Renee Good and Alex Pretti by federal agents in Minneapolis, to the shock over the arrest of two independent journalists, including former CNN anchor Don Lemon, after they live- streamed a protest that interrupted a church service, and the heartbreaking image of a five-year-old child lying in his father's arms while being held in ICE detention, the events of this week seem to have broken through to the White House, and perhaps forced them to change their tone.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM HOMAN, WHITE HOUSE BORDER CZAR: I do not want to hear that everything that's been done here has been perfect.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you saying that the Justice Department has opened a civil rights investigation into his death?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

KRISTI NOEM, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: We were using the best information we had at the time, seeking to be transparent with the American people.

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Bovino is very good, but he's a pretty out-there kind of a guy, and in some cases that's good. Maybe it wasn't good here. We're going to de-escalate a little bit.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: My panel is here in The Arena. CNN Legal Analyst, Former Federal Prosecutor Elliot Williams, host of the Interview podcast from The New York Times, also CNN Contributor, Lulu Garcia-Navarro, former Biden White House Communications Director and CNN Political Commentator Kate Bedingfield, along with former Republican Congressman and Speaker Pro Tem Patrick McHenry.

Welcome to all of you. Thank you so much for being here.

Congressman, you know, politics has infiltrated every area of our lives, and it feels, certainly I think to those of us who work in this town, in this industry, like that's been true for a long time. Sometimes, you know, I have to remind myself, I think we all do, that there's only so much of it that really gets through to the wider public.

It does feel like this week is something that touched almost everyone in America in a way that oftentimes our politics don't. What is your sense of how far this has gone with the American public? How much it has changed or affected the culture?

PATRICK MCHENRY (R), FORMER SPEAKER PRO TEMPORE: It's substantially different than previous cases like this for a couple of reasons. Number one, this is all caught on video, number one. Number two, at a time where a majority of the American people are locked in because of ice and snow and a storm that hit a majority of the American people. So the combination of the two makes this one of the rare cultural moments in a time where we have such diffused media.

We used to have three networks. You had unified news sources in the 60s and 70s, and that has all changed. At this moment, everyone was unified in what they saw with their own two eyes, and therefore can have an opinion about a unifying or disunifying event. The question then is how do politicians and the administration respond? And that has scrambled everything here in Washington this week, unlike very few events have in the Trump era.

KATE BEDINGFIELD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think I absolutely agree on the video playing the central role here in driving people's, you know, outrage to what they witnessed. The videos are very graphic and really go in many ways at some of the fundamental principles that are sacred to us as Americans. But I also think that the audacity of the administration's initial response has -- is a big piece of what has driven a lot of people who aren't otherwise engaged in politics or thinking about politics, has driven them to frustration.

And I think it's very clear from the actions that we've seen from the White House that they have been hearing, probably privately, from people who are not usually eager to criticize them. And that has probably also driven some of their U-turn here.

HUNT: I mean, Lulu, we've seen certainly, I have -- I feel like I have covered over and over again with the Trump administration. I mean, you can look at January 6th as an example, right, where you see what happens with your own eyes and they insist that something else happened and the narrative becomes warped by politics and suddenly people are fighting over what, you know, you can see with your own eyes. Somehow, them coming out in the beginning and saying to Americans, this is what happened. I think for many Americans it was before they even had a chance to see the video, they had heard perhaps or seen what the administration said, then they see what happens with their own eyes and those two things don't connect here. What's different about this?

LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I think a few things. First of all, these are white American citizens. These are people that a lot of Americans might see as their neighbors, their friends, their family members.

[12:05:03]

These are people who are in the Midwest, in a part of the country that isn't necessarily connected in their minds to sort of regular protest, even though, of course, Minneapolis has been at the center of lots of different events in our cultural history. But I think more than anything, we're at an inflection point.

You know, this has been building and building for quite some time. The administration has been pushing and pushing and pushing the lines to see what they could impose on blue cities and blue states that they disagree with. And what we've seen in Minneapolis is people, you know, regular folks protesting, standing up for themselves, and the tide has turned against the administration in a way that they cannot ignore.

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, I would agree. It's remarkable that both immigration and the economy were the strengths both that got Donald Trump elected, but also which propelled him through his first year. And he sort of lost a lot of that.

Now, set aside the economy on immigration right here. And Kate gets the gold star for the point of the day, which is that it was the lying to the American people when it immediately -- soon after it had happened, starting with, number one, referring to the individual as a domestic terrorist, which is a legal distinction that did not apply there.

Number one, calling -- number two, calling him an assassin, saying that he had come to massacre people and so on. There's always ambiguity in law enforcement and scenarios that happen in the heat of the moment. And it could have been the case that any of these things were true. We all saw the video and it was all lies from the White House. And I think this, more than any other thing, proved to be somewhat of a breaking point.

And then, you know, just picking up on Patrick's point also, the link to 2020 here is interesting in that those protests that summer also happened when people were trapped in their houses and all they were doing was doom scrolling and watching images of Kenosha, Wisconsin burning --

HUNT: Yes.

WILLIAMS: -- and Minneapolis and Portland and so on. And that, in a way, radicalized people as well. Here, people are stuck in their houses, they're snowed in in a third of the country and watching this stuff.

HUNT: Congressman, to kind of buttonhole this conversation, I am interested in your perspective on what the administration has done here with the journalists that were at the church in this protest of what had happened in the streets of Minneapolis. Don Lemon arrested. Also another independent journalist arrested who was filming the protest.

In some ways, she probably will bear the brunt of this more, of course, than Don Lemon, who is famous and has access to resources. And in some ways, I find that precedent to be, you know, concerning for someone who doesn't have power and resources. But overall, it's a big deal. I mean, do you think they put their foot right here, the Trump administration, with these arrests?

MCHENRY: No, I think they know exactly what they're doing here. And this was -- this is no mistake. This is not something that happened one off. Don Lemon, there's been a redefinition of what is a journalist today. We've seen this in the White House briefing room. We've seen it over not just the first Trump administration, but the Biden administration continue this policy of defining what is a journalist, which is whatever's in the White House's interest.

That is not necessarily in the public interest. But for Don Lemon to hold the hat of independent journalist as opposed to a progressive rabble rouser, much less going into a church, I think the American people will be on the side of saying, this is not becoming of journalistic integrity --

WILLIAMS: Yes.

MCHENRY: -- to intrude on a church service.

BEDINGFIELD: Although by that --

HUNT: Can I just (INAUDIBLE)?

WILLIAMS: Sure.

BEDINGFIELD: -- by that definition, wouldn't an enormous number of the outlets that the White House goes to that it views as conservative --

MCHENRY: And if you heard what I said --

BEDINGFIELD: -- they not be offended --

MCHENRY: -- I'm not trying to make a distinction between this White House doing something different than the last White House. I think it's absurd to redefine these people as journalists. And I think Don Lemon is a perfect example of somebody who's turned into a political hack rather than somebody who merits the journalist card.

BEDINGFIELD: I think when people are documenting an event and sharing it widely and doing so with a -- with the intention of providing information, whether they have a conservative bent or a liberal bent, the protections of the First Amendment are probably inclined to apply. And yes, we can talk about how we should define it and -- but the idea that the government should be sending -- should be arresting these people, I think is --

WILLIAMS: Or just invited to the White House briefing room, too. I would know there's a seat set aside for new media people in the White House briefing room.

HUNT: Yes. No, it's a good point. All right, it's clearly a longer conversation but unfortunately we've got to keep moving here.

Coming up in The Arena, what Donald Trump said this week that is prompting some of the most vocal conservative organizations to issue a rare public rebuke.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: You know, you can't have guns. You can't walk in with guns. You just can't.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What about the Second Amendment?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[12:14:29]

CHARLTON HESTON, LEGENDARY ACTOR AND FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE NRA: As we set out this year to defeat the divisive forces that would take freedom away. I want to say those fighting words for everyone within the sound of my voice to hear and to heed and especially for you, Mr. Gore. From my cold, dead hands.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: That was Charlton Heston, of course, the legendary actor and former president of the NRA, brandishing a musket and daring than Democratic presidential candidate Al Gore to pry it from his, quote, "cold, dead hands." That iconic moment became synonymous with the Second Amendment, rallied conservatives and gun owners before the 2000 presidential election.

[12:15:19]

Now, the right to bear arms back in the spotlight after the fatal shooting of Alex Pretti in Minnesota last week as the Trump administration's portrayal of him of a -- as a, quote, "would-be assassin" for legally carrying a gun when he was encountered by federal immigration agents. Those comments frustrating gun rights groups who were hoping that President Trump would strike a different tone, of course, brings us to our quote of the week. It was the president who simply doubled down on his administration's rhetoric, saying, quote, "You can't have guns."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: You know, you can't have guns. You can't walk in with guns. You just can't.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What about the Second Amendment?

TRUMP: And you can't -- listen, you can't walk in with guns. You can't do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: How times have changed? Congressman, I think this one's for you again to start --

MCHENRY: Honored to be here.

HUNT: -- because, I mean, I got to say, I mean, having covered this from the Hill and other places for a long time now in Washington, I mean, this was a head spinning week of gun politics because the Trump -- a Republican administration was out there basically saying that a guy who was legally carrying a firearm when he encountered the feds was not doing an acceptable thing.

MCHENRY: And the pearl clutching by liberals that President Trump wasn't sufficiently pro-Second Amendment.

HUNT: Well, yes, we can put up Gavin Newsom's tweet, "Trump's lost the NRA." Gleeful.

MCHENRY: This is great. So, I mean, that's great. Gavin Newsom, the great protector of freedoms. So a couple of things. First, there's a big misrepresentation of President Trump. He is a populist who grew up in New York. And in many ways, he still is in New York City, a liberal and very -- but a practical person.

And so he looks at this event and thinks on its face, this is absurd. Somebody is getting a confrontation with the police and they're armed. That doesn't make a lot of sense. Now, all the litigation -- and Elliot, this is perfect for you, this is like a slow pitch for you.

HUNT: Right over the plate.

MCHENRY: But all the court cases and all the shift of the last 30 years on gun rights and enshrining what is Second Amendment rights and the solid definition we have of this has moved dramatically from where we were with Charlton Heston and Al Gore. And the quote, you know, pride -- you know, the quote that we started with.

But Trump is very practical and not ideological --

GARCIA-NAVARRO: What I think is going on here -- I don't think this is what's going on here. I think --

MCHENRY: I think it is perfectly what's going on here. GARCIA-NAVARRO: I think what's going on here is something that has always been true, which is there are gun rights for some in this country and not for others. There is a view that certain people can have guns and use them and other people can't. Just ask, you know, black Americans and other people in communities who immediately when they are seen to be armed --

MCHENRY: And how do you call that with this nurse?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Well, because this nurse is, in their view, doing something that is against them. And so therefore, they don't view that as a legitimate use of a firearm.

BEDINGFIELD: I think it's in some ways even -- I mean, these points are all very well taken but I, in some ways, I think it's even simpler than that. Trump -- to say Trump is not ideological is to really undersell it. Trump cares about the win directly in front of Donald Trump.

WILLIAMS (?): Yes.

BEDINGFIELD: And his vision -- his aperture on everything is, am I going to, can I win the fight immediately in front of me? That's all he cares about. He cares about the success of Donald Trump. And in his mind, making the case that Alex Pretti was an activist, an agitator, was armed and therefore was a threat, that is -- he believes that's in his interest to make that case to try to win the fight immediately in front of him.

MCHENRY: And by way --

BEDINGFIELD: He cares about his own ego. That's it.

MCHENRY: -- the final piece of the threat. But was he an activist? Was he an agitator? And was he armed? All those things are true. And we have more video evidence at the end of the week than we did at the beginning of the week on that.

BEDINGFIELD: Sure, but it doesn't mean he deserve to die.

MCHENRY: But the question --

BEDINGFIELD: And it doesn't mean it was a good --

MCHENRY: And I'm not saying that in fairness.

BEDINGFIELD: And it doesn't mean in the process there was --

MCHENRY: And what you hear from the president is a very practical analysis of what he saw, and optics matter so much to express (ph).

WILLIAMS: Sure. And he might be a New York City liberal. But he's a New York City liberal, I believe, who has called himself the most pro- gun president, I think, in American history. He's a New York City liberal who has had a concealed carry permit, I believe, for a lot of his adult life. And so I just don't think it's fair to say that, you know, he's grafting blue city and blue state views on the -- looking it in Minneapolis.

HUNT: Well, and let's remember, he's also a New York City liberal who reminded Americans from the very first day that he stepped out onto the national stage. That he could walk down the most well-known avenue in the blue city of New York and shoot people. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: They say I have the most loyal people. Did you ever see that? Where I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose any voters, OK? It's like incredible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[12:20:06]

HUNT: I mean, Patrick McHenry, in some ways, that quote speaks to a little bit of what both you and Kate are saying, which is that he is saying what he thinks will keep his supporters with him and those supporters are going to be with him no matter if they're crosswise with -- he's crosswise with. It doesn't matter who he's making mad. If he's telling them it's true, they're going to be with him.

MCHENRY: And that has actually proven to be the case over the last nine years. Not because I say so, but because polling says so. And so that's where we find ourselves here. And so he is not an ideologue when it comes to guns. He said he's the most pro-gun president.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: But that's what I mean by that certain people have the right to bear arms and other -- what he's signaling, I think, to his supporters -- I think what he's signaling to his supporters is I'm not talking about you.

WILLIAMS: And also --

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about these bad people who might have guns. Not you who are legitimate, you know, true blue MAGA people. You can have all the guns you want.

WILLIAMS: And I -- my question is really a question, not even a thought, but just the -- this whole shoot someone in Fifth Avenue concept with Donald Trump. I do wonder what the 2026 midterms mean for that. Only because at a certain point in the world, the Republican world needs to look past Donald Trump.

Someone's got to run for president. And a lot of these folks in blue and purple cities have to --

HUNT: You know what? Let's ask -- you know, when Democrats tried to run without Barack Obama at the top of the ticket, Kate knows, it got a lot harder.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

HUNT: Republicans are about to lose a charismatic leader at the top of their ticket. It's going to be some kind of new world. WILLIAMS: Totally.

HUNT: Brave or not. All right, coming up here in the -- next here in The Arena, first of its kind, landmark trial is now in full swing. Some of the biggest names in tech now set to defend themselves over claims their social media platforms directly impact mental health.

But first, how the role of comforter-in-chief has changed over the years as the country marks four decades since one of our darkest days.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RONALD REAGAN, 40TH U.S. PRESIDENT: I know it's hard to understand, but sometimes painful things like this happen. It's all part of the process of exploration and discovery. It's all part of taking a chance and expanding man's horizons.

The future doesn't belong to the faint hearted. It belongs to the brave.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[12:26:39]

REAGAN: The crew of the Space Shuttle Challenger honored us for the manner in which they live their lives. We will never forget them, nor the last time we saw them this morning as they prepared for their journey and waved goodbye and slipped the surly bonds of Earth to touch the face of God.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Forty years ago this week, seven brave men and women, six astronauts and the 37-year-old high school teacher Christa McAuliffe boarded the Space Shuttle Challenger in hopes of bringing the first private citizen into Space and sharing with a generation of Americans the grand possibilities of Space exploration.

A little more than a minute into the launch, the nation and the world watched in shock and horror as the shuttle broke apart in the blue skies of a sunny Florida morning. Everyone on board was killed. President Reagan had been scheduled to deliver the State of the Union address that evening. His team immediately postponed the speech and speechwriter Peggy Noonan scrambled to write that Oval Office address to a nation in collective mourning.

My panel is is back. Patrick McHenry, not to keep coming back to the well, but, you know, when you listen to what Ronald Reagan was doing there, and we talked about this a little bit at the top of the show, you mentioned the way our attention is divided and fractured and the way we used to consume things together. You know, watching that back and thinking about -- I don't remember that day myself, I will date myself if I try to claim that I do.

But I certainly remember how it was told later as one of those moments where people remember where you were. And I'm just curious your reflections on whether that's something that's ever going to be possible for us as Americans again.

MCHENRY: I remember it. And this is the reason why I call myself a Reagan Republican. Reagan defined a generation of republicanism in this country in a similar way that FDR defined generations of Democratic politicians. And what we saw with the rhetoric used there, a unifying speech, not just the tone, but the content was extraordinary.

It shows why FDR and Reagan were the greatest communicators of the last century holding the Oval Office. And we hearken back to that date where the American people seem much more unified. And history always paves over those little ridges and those bumps that we have as Americans. We thought those are great days.

They still fought bitterly during the '80s in politics here in Washington. But it looks quaint and nice compared to the times we live in today.

WILLIAMS: I remember -- so I was 10 when that happened, and I remember vividly. Because of Christa McAuliffe's presence on it, it was a whole big thing that there was a teacher there and we were literally watching it in the cafeteria. It was one the of more --

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Exactly. They showed it in the school.

WILLIAMS: -- traumatic moments as a kid to watch.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yes.

WILLIAMS: And I think we just needed the president. And there was just something -- you know, it's even almost emotional for me to watch that now, watching Reagan deliver those words to sort of comfort and unite the country where he was speaking. I mean, there's a reason why the guy won 49 states.

He sort of had a way to communicate with everybody in a way that certainly no presidents now could. I mean, there are presidents of the modern era that I think could deliver that speech. George W. Bush after 9/11, Barack Obama after the Charleston shooting. I don't think Donald Trump could do that. And I wonder if future presidents, if we've now gotten so much in the muck, that future presidents could unite the country in the same way.

[12:30:21]

HUNT: I think we can actually put up on the screen, we have some pictures of kids at the time who were in school watching it. And we can continue kind of to reflect as we put that up on the screen. Your reflections, Lulu. GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yes, I think it was the first time I saw someone die that I understood that that's what had happened. And it was deeply shocking, deeply horrifying. And I also remember looking to the President for his words and finding them sort of meaningful in the way that a child does, which is that an adult is telling me that this is a terrible thing that's happened, but, you know, it's going to be OK. And so, yes, I think it was just a completely different era.

And I hadn't thought about that time for a long time, actually, and thinking about, you know, looking up to the sky. Also the space program just represented something, as -- if you're a kid, and also just to the country, something idealistic, something that reached to our better sense of ourselves. And to have that happen was just a great tragedy.

HUNT: Yes. Devastating. And we should be clear, too, I mean, this role of Consular-in-Chief is one that many presidents have played to varying degrees of effectiveness, depending on the moment. But it is something that we have confronted in our time since the Challenger explosion. I mean, let's watch how some other presidents handled some of these really most difficult moments that any president can lead us through.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LYNDON JOHNSON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Let us turn away from the fanatics of the far left and the far right, from the apostles of bitterness and bigotry, from those defiant of law, and those who pour venom into our nation's bloodstream.

BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Let us teach our children that the God of comfort is also the God of righteousness. Those who trouble their own house will inherit the wind. Justice will prevail.

GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Terrorist attacks can shake the foundations of our biggest buildings, but they cannot touch the foundation of America. These acts shatter steel, but they cannot dent the steel of American resolve.

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This evening, Michelle and I will do what I know every parent in America will do, which is hug our children a little tighter. And we'll tell them that we love them. And we'll remind each other how deeply we love one another. But there are families in Connecticut who cannot do that tonight. And they need all of us right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Kate Bedingfield, you've worked very closely with a president who has also had to deal with national moments. I think sometimes it can be, in the Trump era, easy to forget that what we just saw there I think was the norm for the country.

BEDINGFIELD: Yes. Well, in all of those clips, I think a stark reminder of how important it is for the President in moments of national crisis to be able to rise above politics. And it is nearly impossible to do that in the Trump era. I don't lay that, by the way, solely at the feet of Donald Trump. We are -- I think he has driven us to this place. But we are in a place where, you know, it feels like politics has infected everything. And it's politics first.

And then it's, you know, the humanity, the leadership that a president can offer second. I, however, I think we are going to get back to a place where the President of the United States can deliver a message in a moment of crisis that feels connected to Americans from the other party. I believe that America is so fundamentally built on the idea of coming together as community and reaching out to each other in moments of crisis.

And I am willing to sit here and say that I think we are going to get back to a place where we can see a President of the United States do what we saw those men do in those clips.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Good luck with that.

HUNT: For God's ears.

All right. Coming up next here is social media facing its tobacco moment. We're about to find out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[12:34:44]

MARK ZUCKERBERG, CEO, META: We certainly do not want our products to be addictive. We want people to use them because they are meaningful.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): Mr. Zuckerberg, do you believe your product can be addictive?

ZUCKERBERG: Senator, we certainly do not design the product in that way. We design the product to be as useful and meaningful as possible.

GRAHAM: That's not my question.

ZUCKERBERG: We certainly do not want our products to be addictive. We want people to use them because they're meaningful.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Meaningful, huh? Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg there in 2020 telling senators that he doesn't want things like Facebook to be addictive. Now a court is set to decide if it actually is. A massive trial that started this week in Los Angeles is being asked to answer the question of whether social media giants hurt kids, causing things like addiction, trauma, and depression. [12:40:18]

The defendants are Meta, which of course operates Facebook and Instagram, as well as Google's YouTube. TikTok and Snapchat agreed to settle so they'll avoid the trial. But no matter the outcome of this, we can all plainly see in our own lives how phones and social media have dramatically changed our culture.

Joining our panel now is someone who's written a book about how to find meaning and excellence in the face of all of that, Brad Stulberg. He's the author of "The Way of Excellence: A Guide to True Greatness and Deep Satisfaction in a Chaotic World." Brad, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here. I asked you to come because I feel like we need more voices like yours in The Arena in this time. And I'm interested to know kind of your perspective.

I mean as, you know, I'm a parent, parents, kids, everyone grapples with the way these technologies have changed and really fractured our lives and our attention spans. You know, you write about excellence, right, the way of it, how to work through that to actually find something that does hold real meaning in your lives. What would your advice be?

BRAD STULBERG, AUTHOR, "THE WAY OF EXCELLENCE": Yes, that's right. I think of social media in these apps like eating Skittles. So it tastes really good when you've got a bag of Skittles and you just want to stuff your face with Skittles. But a diet of brown rice tends to leave you much more nourished and fulfilled.

So I think is there a time and a place to eat candy? Absolutely. Is there a time and a place to scroll on Instagram to numb yourself out for a bit? For sure. But if that becomes the centerpiece of your diet and that disconnects you from real pursuits in the real world, the result is going to be very much just like having a diet of Skittles. You're not going to feel so great.

HUNT: One of the things that you write in your book here is in the introduction is that excellence drives purposeful attention and productive action. It supports living with intimacy and depth instead of remove and shallowness. It reconnects us with our essential humanity and fills us with purpose in an increasingly numbed out world. You know, when I was reading this, you know, I think that one of the things that we're learning has been most lost, especially for kids whose brains were shaped, right, they were using this endlessly instead of being out there with their friends.

Of course, the pandemic didn't help. It forced them many times behind closed doors. But the missing pieces of human interaction and what that actually means, I mean, how do the principles that you write about help explain why that matters so much?

STULBERG: Yes, I define excellence really simply. It's involved engagement and caring deeply in a worthwhile pursuit that aligns with your values. And if we are getting sucked into these technologies and we're spending so much time on screens, we're essentially becoming passive participants in our lives instead of doing real things in the real world with real people that align with our values, chasing our goals, taking on big challenges, facing friction. These are the things that lead not only to excellence, but to meaning and satisfaction.

HUNT: Congressman McHenry, I was thinking about actually Congress. So I spent a decade plus covering Congress and watched it really change in the face of all of this, right, and the incentives really change from success and respect and appreciation coming from a lot of hard work behind closed doors, a lot of relationship building, a lot of behind the scenes work to come together for a finished product to a lot of individuals running around looking for clicks.

And I'm just -- I'm interested to know, I mean, you spent so much time, and Brad writes in the book about how you get to a place in your career over a lot of time investing over and over again, doing the hard things. Do you feel like that's something that gets rewarded anymore?

MCHENRY: Oh, it does over time. But it makes it much more difficult because there are no longer one-on-one or secret meetings that can be had. Those things get well exposed because of social media, number one. Number two, gadflies are rewarded. The substance players are held in lower regard by the public.

And so that is incentivizing the rest of the world to follow the gadflies, the path of the gadflies. But there's a real question of how do we recenter? Because these technologies are there. They're available. All of the debate is around -- much of the debate is around the harm to children and how we have a rules-based regime for monitoring children's access to these apps. What about the adults? The struggle here is across the board for those of us that are deeply engaged in technology and how do we handle this? And we're still struggling with it. I mean, it's a real struggle as a society.

WILLIAMS: No, I would say. And the Skittles analogy, and I say this is a -- that's my favorite candy, the kids know this. I don't know, literally, no.

[12:45:01]

HUNT: I prefer M&M's.

WILLIAMS: Oh, no, my son likes M&M's. It's just don't bring them in my house. It's all Skittles. But it's such a powerful metaphor. But the challenge is, what if Skittles were designed to addict you? And I don't believe they are.

MCHENRY: They are, though.

WILLIAMS: But in the same way that algorithms don't. I mean --

STULBERG: The difference is, imagine if you walked around with an open bag of Skittles in your pocket, and any time you were bored or hungry, you'd pop a Skittle.

WILLIAMS: Right.

STULBERG: That's what we're doing on our phones. And it's alienating us from our lives.

WILLIAMS: But I just still think, and just, you know, to twist the metaphor even further, what if the more you use Skittles, the more addictive they got? I mean, you can't tell me that these algorithms are not designed to play.

HUNT: I mean, have you ever just eaten sugar for a week? Because let me tell you, if you start eating only sugar, you will just want more sugar.

WILLIAMS: You want more sugar. That's a fair point. Yes.

HUNT: Brad, what would you say to what the congressman was saying about the adults? And, you know, even to people, you know, I now encounter, whether it's, you know, people who want to make it in the field I'm in now, with what do I do every day to figure out how to succeed?

STULBERG: Yes, there's a big difference between what I call performative greatness, or hustle culture greatness, and actual greatness. In performative greatness, it's like the gadfly. It is very much focused on attention, these dramatic, heroic acts, pulling the all-nighter, going to the gym, working out till you puke. But the goal isn't to have a heroic day. It's not to draw attention for a day. It's to have a heroic month, a heroic year, and ideally, a heroic decade.

So it needs to be a foundation of hard work, of discipline, of consistency, of nailing the fundamentals. And if you do that, time and time again, if you keep pounding the stone, that gives you a chance at having a breakthrough later on.

HUNT: One other thing that stuck out to me as someone who, I had a major health challenge in my own life. I had a brain tumor. It's that kind of work that sets you up to bounce back when you feel like you've had a setback.

STULBERG: And that's the importance of excellence and aspiring toward excellence. It's so important to reclaim as a personal and cultural value, working toward a goal. Or we're trying to get the promotion, but that goal is also working on us. So when you train for a marathon, when you work really hard in a leadership position, you are shaping your character. You are doing something hard. You are overcoming setbacks. You are gaining resilience. You are seeing the power of discipline and consistency and all these factors that translate across life.

MCHENRY: But to your point, Brad, the reason why your book is so powerful is because it's so countercultural to the moment, yet so timeless in its attributes. That's such a welcome thing to the discourse.

HUNT: All right. That's a great spot to end. Brad Stulberg, thank you so much for being here. Really appreciate it.

STULBERG: Thanks for having me. HUNT: The book is "The Way of Excellence: A True Guide to Greatness and Deep Satisfaction in a Chaotic World," I have to say. I do recommend it. No one is paying me to say that.

Coming up, something totally different, Snubgate and why some in the sports world are calling for a boycott.

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[12:47:50]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bill Belichick will reportedly not be voted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame during his first year of eligibility, but he still plans to continue dating women during their first year of eligibility.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now let me say this to everybody about the pro football hall of fame. We should boycott that bad boy. Nobody should show up. Nobody should want to go into that hall of fame if Bill Belichick ain't in as the first battle hall of fame.

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HUNT: The football world exploded this week after it was revealed that Bill Belichick didn't get voted into the pro football hall of fame in his first year of eligibility. I'm sorry, what? You may be thinking, no, certainly not that Bill Belichick. Not the Bill Belichick who dominated the NFL as head coach of the New England Patriots, making the rest of us who weren't their fans hate them for 18 years.

But this man won six Super Bowls, amassed more than 300 wins in the regular season and the playoffs, and won AP NFL coach of the year three times. Yes, it is that Bill Belichick. ESPN is reporting that he did not receive the necessary 40 votes from a 50 person panel to get voted into the hall of fame. Now, of course, there's obviously next year, but it's the fact that this is Belichick's first year of eligibility that has fans, commentators, some of his old players, just dumbfounded.

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TOM BRADY, FORMER NFL PLAYER: I don't understand it. I mean, I was with him every day. If he's not a first battle hall of famer, there's really no coach that should ever be a first battle hall of famer.

ROB GRONKOWSKI, FORMER PATRIOTS TIGHT END: There had to be some voters that have some ill will against Coach Bill Belichick for whatever reason, but that should be, you know, overlooked. It's all about resume and Coach Belichick has a resume. And Coach Belichick, a hundred percent deserve to be a first ballot hall of famer. He's clearly going to get into the pro football hall of fame, but he was definitely snubbed over the last couple of days.

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HUNT: OK, guys, who wants to take this? I mean, what?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Oh, it was definitely personal and I'm here for it.

BEDINGFIELD: I am not a Bill Belichick fan.

MCHENRY: Best part about it is his enemies are rallying to his defense and he's sitting back eating popcorn.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: A hundred percent. They're like, that's terrible, what happened to Bill Belichick. Oh, it's terrible.

HUNT: Is he running your team now?

MCHENRY: UNC Chapel Hill recruited him and they got him. I'm not a Carolina fan, though from North Carolina.

[12:55:04]

WILLIAMS: As a New York sports fan, every fiber in my body is curling with rage at what I'm about to say. But yes, he probably deserves to be in the hall of fame. Like the ghost of the answer, like Joe DiMaggio is hovering over me right now saying you've failed us, Elliot.

BEDINGFIELD: I mean, he did have a scandal. There was a scandal in his coaching career. He paid half a million dollars for it.

MCHENRY: A goat is a goat and he's a goat.

BEDINGFIELD: I'm saying, no reasons.

HUNT: We didn't show the picture with all the rings for what it's worth. All right. Panel thank you. Thanks to all of you at home for watching. Don't forget, you can see The Arena every weekday right here on CNN at 4:00 p.m. Eastern. You can always catch up listening to our podcast. Follow the show on X and Instagram. We're at thearenacnn. Enjoy the rest of your weekend. The news continues right now next on CNN.

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