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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt
Rubio Warns "The Old World Is Gone" As World Leaders Meet, Grapple With Trump's Aggressive Global Agenda; Just In: CNN Interviews Sheriff Leading Guthrie Case. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired February 13, 2026 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: And we're grateful for you joining us this afternoon.
"THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT" starts right now.
KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Hi, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. Welcome to a special edition of THE ARENA.
We are live from the Munich security conference. It's wonderful to have you with us on this Friday.
As we come on the air here, the world finds itself at a critical juncture. War still rages on. Europe's eastern front. Tensions are building in the Middle East and beyond.
And under normal circumstances, the Munich security conference here would be where the leaders of the Western world would gather -- to take on -- to confront these immense challenges with a united front, ideally.
But with President Donald Trump once again the most powerful man on the world stage and his administration apparently determined to rewrite the global order, things are a little different this year.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARCO RUBIO, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: The world is changing very fast right in front of us. The old world is gone, frankly the world I grew up in, and we live in a new era in geopolitics and it's going to require all of us to sort of reexamine what that looks like and what our role is going to be.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: The old world is gone, and the race to shape the new world is on. With prominent Democrats coming here to Munich to present their alternative visions for the global order and, of course, to burnish their own potential presidential credentials, in the meantime.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): We have to have a working class centered politics if we are going to succeed, and also if we are going to stave off the scourges of authoritarianism.
SEN. ELISSA SLOTKIN (D-MI): If the old world is over, it's like ceding American leadership. And while America has made plenty of mistakes in our time, I served in Iraq, I saw those mistakes up close. I would rather have American leadership over Chinese leadership or Russian leadership any day of the week.
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D-CA): Donald Trump is doubling down on stupid. Never in the history of the United States of America has there been a more destructive president than the current occupant in the White House in Washington, D.C.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Earlier today, I actually spoke with California Governor Gavin Newsom. We're going to play that full interview that we had with him in just a few minutes but first, we want to get started here off the sidelines. We are in the global arena today, tonight really here in Munich.
And joining us is Democratic senator from Arizona, Mark Kelly. He sits on the Senate Armed Services and Intelligence Committees.
Senator, I'm so grateful to have you.
SEN. MARK KELLY (D-AZ): Good to be here.
HUNT: You stayed up late here in Munich with us. And, you know, I was struck actually watching you leaving Washington because the questions you were getting as you were heading here were about whether or not the Department of Justice in the United States of America was going to indict you and your fellow senators. You've got the Department of Defense also trying to essentially penalize you, exactly.
And then you come here and we are standing on a global stage, and I really am interested to know what the world, what the people you are talking to here are telling you about what everything that is happening to you says about America.
KELLY: Well, let me -- let me start by saying, you know, I couldn't hear exactly what the Secretary Rubio was saying, but he was talking about the global war. World order has changed.
HUNT: Yes.
KELLY: Well, changed for a reason. Somebody changed --
HUNT: He said, quote, the old world is gone.
KELLY: The old world is gone because Donald Trump blew it up. I mean we had a -- this system of alliances we've had around the world, especially here in Europe, that has served us as a country so well for decades, since World War Two.
And you know, granted, I don't think previous administrations did a great job explaining to the American people why this is so important to our safety, to our economic security, to, you know, to the future of the planet. It is really important that we as a nation have friends.
We've got a rising China. Technologically, they are more than competitive with us right now, and their -- the industrialization and their ability to build things surpasses ours, you know, by a lot. We're trying to catch up. We're trying to do all kinds of things.
The things that -- the thing that keeps us ahead is we have friends or we had them. And what I'm hearing now is even if we are able to repair these relationships, it's going to take generations before they feel comfortable. You know, we could have a new administration here in three years, or we could -- Democrats can win the election. There could be a change in the House or the Senate.
But what happens four years later? I mean, they are now, I got to say what I'm -- what I'm hearing here in Munich.
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It feels like some PTSD is the -- is the kind of vibe that we are getting from our former friends.
HUNT: The Canadian prime minister, when he was on a different world stage in Davos, said nostalgia is not a strategy and do you --
KELLY: And hope isn't a strategy either, right? I mean, we can't just like hope that this is going to get better. We have to have a plan.
HUNT: Do you think that it is irreparable? What has happened between the United States of America and our European allies.
KELLY: Like irreparable harm, like we're not going to be able to fix this?
HUNT: Yeah.
KELLY: No, I think we can fix this. I think we can get past this. I think it's going to take a new president, a new administration who understands a little bit more about history and what has made the United States a great nation and what has contributed to our own safety and our economic prosperity for decades.
And that's because we have friends. We have people that will do trade deals with us. That'll treat us fairly. I heard some comments from some of my Republican colleagues here today who are talking about, like, the problems in the world is because of European countries. And I mean, these are countries that supported us when we needed them in Afghanistan you know, people died because we were we were attacked. And now we've, you know, we've kicked them to the curb but no, we can -- we can absolutely fix this.
It's going to take some hard work. We're going to have to build trust over a period of time. But I do think this is repairable.
HUNT: The image that Donald Trump projects at home, but especially on the world stage, is to try to show strength.
KELLY: Right.
HUNT: Right? And that is the political brand that he has built. And of course, he tagged Democrats as being the party of weakness especially when Joe Biden was president.
Is that something Democrats can fix? Can you convince Americans that strength is with the Democratic Party?
KELLY: You know, I think strength you know focused on the right thing. Right? I think also as a -- as a nation, you know some of some of our greatest values strength could be important. But what also can be important is generosity and compassion and understanding that there are people out there struggling. And if we can help them in the long term, that helps us.
And he seems to have abandoned this, and I think people that try to project and seem so desperate to project that kind of power and strength, I think it comes from a sense of insecurity but you got to give it to them. I mean, it's worked for him so far.
It's helped him as an individual. It's helped his family. He's been able to enrich himself because of his position because he won two elections.
But it has been a bad deal for the American people. They continue to struggle. Things cost too much. They can't afford rent and housing. He took away their health care to give a big tax cut to other billionaires. This has been a bad deal for the American people.
And we were just -- just at dinner here. We were talking about this with a bunch of our colleagues from around the world. And, you know, they said that Donald Trump was popular in Europe when he got elected. This last time he was popular. He's no longer popular.
You know, who's now more popular than the United States of America in most of these European countries, especially Denmark? China. China now polls ahead of the United States of America. And that is, for me, incredibly troubling.
HUNT: President Trump, of course, is known also to make things very deeply personal. And it seems as though he -- his Justice Department has personally gone after you, gone after the others that were in those -- that was in the illegal orders videos. What is your understanding of where the Department of Justice investigation into you stands? Are they trying to indict you at a grand jury at this very moment? Again?
KELLY: It could be. I mean, they don't share a lot of information with us. Grand juries are secret. The last thing we heard from them was we were not under investigation -- I was not under investigation from DOJ the next thing we hear, they went to a grand jury.
By the way, they didn't get any votes. The government got no votes to charge us with anything. So that might sound like a good news story. It's a horrible story. This president tried to put me and my colleagues in prison because we said something he didn't like.
We said something that was lawful. We told members of the military basically follow the law. We said something that his secretary of defense said repeatedly on camera, in 2016, when Donald Trump was running for president.
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And for that, he wants to jail us. I mean, this is how democracies die when you start throwing the -- who you perceive as your political opponents in -- in prison. And this is not -- but it's not just about like me. And I'm not just concerned about, like, what's going to happen to me. I just kind of feel like I'm the first one through the breach here.
What I'm really concerned about is he is now -- he's trying to take away First Amendment rights from over two million retired service members, people like me who served in the military, who often went into combat to defend the Constitution and the country, you know, who served over decades. But it also affects all 350 million Americans who have a constitutional right to speak out against the government.
It sends a chilling effect. And I've heard from retired service members, very senior ones, that they have changed what they say and what they do because of what this president is doing to me.
HUNT: Do you think that he's going to try to do it again?
KELLY: I would not put anything past this guy. I mean, he seems to double down on doing dumb things. And -- I mean, what happened this week is a group of just everyday, ordinary U.S. citizens saw through it, and said, hey, this -- they didn't buy it. And my understanding is every single one of them said no to the United States government, that we're not going to -- we're not going to throw these people. You know, we're not going to charge them criminally and try to throw them in prison for exercising, the First Amendment of the Constitution.
So they saw through it. But I don't think this president cares about that. I think he will try to do something again and again, thinking he's going to get a different result.
HUNT: You, of course, are not the only Democrat with potentially national ambitions who is here. There seem to be a number who are considering running for president. Where -- where is your head right now on what is next for you, especially as you know everything that you've just laid out? The stakes are incredibly high. Do you want to run for president?
KELLY: Well, I haven't decided, but that's not why I'm here. I mean, I've been here before. I like this kind of stuff. I mean, I spent years flying off of aircraft carriers. I spent -- I lived in Japan, in the United States Navy for two and a half years.
I -- I'm on the armed services committee and the intelligence committee. Like this is like the bread and butter of the stuff that where I feel like I can offer a lot. And so, I like this part of the job. So that's -- that's why I'm here.
We have an election, you know, this year. And the stakes of this election are really, really high. The president just sent the director of national intelligence down to Fulton County, Georgia, to grab the ballots from 2020 because he cannot -- I mean, he cannot rest.
I mean, this guy became president in 2016. He won. He won again in 2024 and he lost in 2020. And 60 courts -- I mean, he lost 60 times in court over that election. And he still can't accept that he -- that he lost an election. So, I worry about -- I mean, what is his plans for this November? So that needs to be everybody's focus right now is we got to get through the midterms. I am working to help elect Democrats especially to the United States Senate, but I'm helping House members do.
HUNT: Yeah.
KELLY: I think we could have a good election night? And then we'll have the tools that we can use to put a check on an administration that I think has gone way over the line. I mean, Donald Trump said I should be hanged, executed, and now he's trying to throw me in prison. So I think that's over a line.
So, we need to -- we need to have a good night in November.
HUNT: All right. Senator Mark Kelly, very grateful for you --
KELLY: Thank you.
HUNT: -- for being here, starting us off tonight.
KELLY: Appreciate it.
HUNT: Thank you.
KELLY: Thank you.
HUNT: All right. Coming up here in THE ARENA, Senator Kelly, of course, not the only potential 2028 Democratic hopeful who is here. What California Governor Gavin Newsom is telling us about his future and his three word message to world leaders here in Munich.
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NEWSOM: We'll see what happens as it relates to many people here that I imagine are looking at 2028.
HUNT: Where are you? Are you running for president?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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HUNT: We are back live in Munich, where many of the world's leaders are gathered for the annual global security conference here. It includes heads of state, prime ministers, presidents.
And there's no shortage of people who just might want to be president of the United States. Just a short while ago, we caught up with California Governor Gavin Newsom. He's brought a simple message here for the world.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HUNT: You're here in Munich. A number of other Democrats as well want to be in this international conversation. But why are you here tonight?
NEWSOM: Well, I'm here in many respects to remind everyone that Trump is temporary. He'll be gone in a matter of years.
States like California are permanent. Were reliable stable partners. Had a chance just a moment ago to be on a panel talking about climate policy. We saw what Trump just did with the endangerment finding, completely rolling back progress the last half century, wants to recreate the 19th century.
And we want to transform our economy. We want to dominate in the next great global economy, low carbon green growth. And I'm reminding world leaders of that.
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HUNT: Do the leaders you've spoken to here still think that America is the leader of the free world?
NEWSOM: No. They see us as a wrecking ball. They see us as unreliable. And a lot of them think they're revocable. They don't think we'll ever come back to our original form. I'm not as convinced of that.
Whatever happens, we can undo, we can shapeshift. We can fix and while trust is difficult to reestablish, there's too much at stake in a multinational -- from a multinational perspective that we have a lot of work to do once Trump's done. And I think it can, it's not going to be undone permanently from my perspective.
HUNT: The Secretary of State Marco Rubio is here tonight. He's meeting with the American delegation. When he was leaving to come here, Marco Rubio said, the old world is gone. Is he right?
NEWSOM: Well, you know, there's the old adage, once a mind is stretched, it never goes back to its original form. What Donald Trump has done where the principal antagonist in the world right now, I mean, it's unbelievable how unifying the opposition is to the American approach to diplomacy, to alliances, to foreign policy become, I mean what more proof do you need than talking about attacking a NATO ally? And Greenland and the impact of that decision has had.
That said, no, I'm not convinced of that at all. I think it's not dead, it's dormant. It's waiting for different conditions to move forward and I think that changes in the midterms, I think tonally begins to shift a little bit after November. Trump's going to get shellacked in the midterms. He knows that. The world I think, is becoming, I think more and more familiar with that reality.
He's going to lose, likely in the Supreme Court on the tariff question. So, he'll have to use other statutes and authority and tariffs. So, he's going to lose a lot of leverage and he's going to lose a lot of his reputational strength.
He's increasingly weak, masquerading as strong. And I think as a consequence of that, it will open the door again to diplomacy and common sense.
HUNT: Do you feel like they're treating you here as a possible next U.S. president?
NEWSOM: I don't know about that. But, you know, I think -- look, I come from a state larger than 21 state populations combined. It's not only the largest state in America, it's the fourth largest economy in the world. And it's, you know, connective tissue to every single person. We have 28 MOUs around the globe, number one in direct foreign trade, number one in two-way trade.
And so, from that perspective, were universal state. But we'll see what happens as it relates to many people here that I imagine are looking at 2028 as well.
HUNT: There does seem to be a list. One of them is Alexandria Ocasio- Cortez. She's been on the left of the Democratic Party. Is that the direction that you think your party should go if they want to win the presidential election in 2028?
NEWSOM: Well, I think, you know well see where things end up. I mean at the moment, that's the zeitgeist. I mean, you know, we're in this resistance mindset. People want us to be strong. People want us to push back hold the line, call it out, call balls and strikes.
And certainly, what I've been doing, and progressive policies have worked in certain parts of the country. But we'll see again. It's a little too early to figure that out. I say this often about Trump. In many ways, the obstacle is the way, what stands in the way becomes the way. Trump will shapeshift, where ultimately, we end up as it relates to what -- what flavor Democrat, what that moment represents, what that moment requires of the Democratic Party. After the midterms, that process begins.
HUNT: Do you think that Democrats risk going too far if they have power in Congress? Could they take the country too far left and put -- get the presidency at risk?
NEWSOM: I mean the answer, of course, that could happen -- could happen. Let's make sure it doesn't happen. Let's be thoughtful. Let's use our common sense.
We need to also hold people in power to account of the abuses. I mean, this is next level abuses. It's the rule of Don, not the rule of law. It's the law of the jungle, might makes right.
You've seen this wrecking ball presidency, not just internationally, but domestically. And you saw that at full display this week with the attorney general and just the obstinance and the arrogance of this administration. So the sense of lack of accountability and oversight that's going to change dramatically after November, but we have to be cautious because I don't think people -- as much as we want, you know to level the playing field. We want some score settling.
I also think all of us need to take a deep breath I mean, this flight and fight all this stress and the stacking of stress, all this anxiety that we're living under, I think all of us would do well just to find some common ground commonality. At the same time, we stand our ground.
HUNT: You've been pretty pugnacious yourself on social media when it comes to Trump. Why?
NEWSOM: I want to put a mirror up to the absurdity of Donald Trump. I mean, none of this is normal. I mean, the fact that we haven't -- had full stop spent two weeks every night analyzing the president of the United States put out a racist tweet of Michelle Obama and Barack Obama. The fact that that is not consuming international discussions and conversations here and domestic, is just a proof point of the shock and awe that Trump winning news cycle shifting, changing the conversation, the lack of accountability.
So, I'm just trying to put up a mirror.
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We've been more aggressive and, you know, I think we've gotten under their skin a little bit. We're actually breaking through. I think it's a game of dominating the narrative.
You got to actually get attention. It's hard to get attention. And so, I think our social media has done that a little bit.
HUNT: I know you've -- you're tight on time, but before I let you go, you're here in Munich. You went to Davos, you sat for photographs with Annie Leibovitz. You were in "Vogue" with your family.
NEWSOM: Yeah, well, that -- I can't say no to a 16 year old that wanted to make that happen. My daughter.
HUNT: Your daughter wanted to do that?
NEWSOM: When you -- are you going to say no to a 16-year-old daughter and Annie Lleibovitz? No.
HUNT: Mine is only three, so I've got a ways to go. But where are you? Are you running for president?
NEWSOM: No, I honestly don't know. I really don't, but I am trying to be accountable to the world I'm living in. I don't want to live with any regrets. I don't want to say I could have or would have or should have, been on some panel, or go on your show as one of those you know, ex-politicians. I'm putting out all on the line. I want to run 110- yard dash as governor. You saw that last year with prop 50. You see that on our social media the work we're doing every day back home. But look, this moment requires, I think, leadership, it requires a
counternarrative. Trump does not represent the majority of Americans. The most historic president in our lifetime historically unpopular, and the rest of the world needs to understand that.
And they also need to stand their ground. And look, I'm not trying to give foreign policy advice. I need it but I'm saying what works in the United States is strength begets strength. He has one superpower is taking a weakness and exploiting it, and I think you're seeing reflected in Carney's comments in Davos, you saw it reflected in some respects with the chancellor of Germany's comments today.
I think tonally, they're beginning to shift a little bit, and I think that was reflected in the retreat on Greenland it's reflected in the retreat because of the heroic work of citizens and leadership in Minneapolis and Minnesota. With the retreat there, I think that's the approach we need to take as a party, as a democracy and as a world and the one we're trying to build.
HUNT: Donald Trump's entire brand is basically built on the idea of strength. Do you think Democrats can convince Americans that they are the party of strength?
NEWSOM: Yeah, I think look, I -- years and years ago, Bill Clinton said it better than anyone else given the choice, given the choice, the American people will always support strong and wrong versus weak and right. And I think there's a lesson to that.
I think what we reflected in Prop 50 is we push back. We didn't try to write an op-ed. I didn't come on here and complain about the world. We hit him right back, fought fire with fire.
And I think the Democratic Party wants to see -- I think the American people want to see strength, conviction authenticity. Don't say one thing privately and do another publicly. I've been saying that to world leaders corporate leaders.
That's why I'm running around with knee pads, doing that not just for corporate leaders, but for university presidents and doing that for law firms and the media that's selling out, selling their soul to Donald Trump I'm not going to do that.
That's why we have patriots site and were selling those knee pads. They continue to be sold out because so many people are selling out all across the globe. So, I just -- it's about being accountable and it's about having courage of your convictions. And it's about standing tall.
I think Trump respects that. I don't think he respects weakness at all and so I think we're all better off with that mindset. And I think our Democratic Party, that's fundamental to our pathway back. All the issues, painting a positive bright alternative vision of the future where everyone feels included. That's going to happen.
We're going to go from resistance to renewal, but we have to do it from a position of strength, clarity and conviction. (END VIDEOTAPE)
HUNT: All right, my thanks to California Governor Gavin Newsom. really enjoyed that conversation.
Coming up next here in THE ARENA, we're going to have much more of our coverage from here in Munich including an interview with one lawmaker who's been a frequent target of Donald Trump's.
But first, we are going to check in on the other big news today, including a first look at a brand-new interview with the sheriff running the investigation into the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie. What he's saying as the search gets closer to the two-week mark.
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ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Who is in charge of this investigation right now?
CHRIS NANOS, PIMA COUNTY SHERIFF: Look, we are. We means we, the Pima County sheriff's department, along with our partners, the FBI. There's no -- the egos have been put aside a long time ago.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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NANOS: Our whole goal in this is not about the sheriff or being elected, or it is focused on finding Nancy. It's all this is.
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HUNT: We're back here in Munich, but back in the United States its nearly two weeks after Nancy Guthrie was last seen. Authorities say they are following, quote, good leads. The FBI says they're looking for a male suspect somewhere around the height of 5'9 to 5'10, with an average build. They're also describing the backpack seen on Nancy Guthrie doorbell camera as a black 25-liter Ozark trail hiker pack.
Joining us now is CNN national correspondent Nick Watt. He is live outside Nancy Guthrie home.
Nick, there are, of course, conflicting reports over the handling of evidence and some tension between the county sheriff's office and the FBI. The Pima County sheriff, of course, of course, is denying these reports.
CNN's Ed Lavandera just talked to the sheriff, actually. What are we hearing from him?
NICK WATT, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it is a fascinating interview that is ongoing. As I talk to you, so story came out that the Pima County sheriff was not giving evidence to the FBI. The FBI wanted to send that evidence to their lab in Quantico. The sheriff here wanted to send it to their lab that they deal with in Florida.
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Now, the sheriff just explained it like this. He said we had already given our lab, the DNA of everybody we knew who has been in the house. So, a housekeeper, the pool guy, whatever. Nancy Guthrie herself. So, it made sense according to the sheriff to send any new evidence to that same lab that already had the profiles of those people.
Take a listen to a little snippet of what the sheriff just told, Ed.
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NANOS: The FBI and the Pima County sheriff's department are joined at the hips. We have done this for not years, decades. We are going to work this case as a team with our partners. There is no egos. Nobody's the lead. It is financing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATT: Now, as I say, Ed Lavandera is interviewing the sheriff right now. I've been watching a couple of fascinating little nuggets that have just come out. Remember, they found a glove a couple of miles away from Nancy Guthrie house the other day? The sheriff explained after they found that glove two miles away. They then increased the radius to five miles, to 10 miles looking for evidence. He also said, we have some DNA.
Now, Ed was pushing him on this point about where that DNA came from. The sheriff would -- wouldn't say, but he said it's DNA that we have recovered and we don't know whose DNA it is. Remember, I just told you they already have DNA of everybody who they knew had been in that house.
So, also a van that came -- in a white van, we were told that was a tip. One of the 30,000 or so tips that have come in to the FBI and the county sheriff. You know, when they released that video of the guy on the doorstep the other day, the sheriff just said within hours, they had 5,000 tips.
Now, with the height, with the description, they're hoping maybe they narrow down those tips. Maybe don't get so many tips but the tips they get are of better quality. Day 13, day 13 of this search for Nancy Guthrie.
Back to you.
HUNT: Nick Watt, thank you very much for that report. I do want to bring in CNN chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst John Miller, and CNN senior law enforcement analyst chief Charles Ramsey, who led both the Washington, D.C. and Philadelphia police departments.
John, I want to start with you. The sheriff addressed DNA. In this case. I want to play a little bit of that and get your thoughts on the other side. Take a look
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Sure.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NANOS: We have DNA. So if -- trust me, if we knew who it was, we'd be on it. But we do have some DNA and we're -- continue to work with those with the lab on that DNA analysis.
ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Is that DNA that you have, you believe might be the suspects? It just doesn't match anyone in a lab or?
NANOS: What we have is we have some DNA and we don't know whose it is, so we'll keep looking.
LAVANDERA: Well, that's significant.
NANOS: Well, it is, yeah.
LAVANDERA: And that was from the house.
NANOS: I'm not telling you where it was. We have DNA
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: John Miller, what is significant about that? What's the timeline for figuring it out?
MILLER: Well, the timeline is what the timeline is. I mean, what it means is you've got the DNA from everybody who is a known contributor around that house. Nancy Guthrie, her son in law, her daughters, whatever staff people worked around there for maintenance.
But now, you have DNA that they don't know who it's from. So that means two things. One, it's not one of the known contributors who was supposed to be in the house and two, because they've run it through CODIS, it's not somebody who's been convicted of a felony or arrested on a serious charge where that DNA would be in the FBI system.
So it's that -- it's that clue that you put on the side and you run it against everybody, that you can run it against, whether it's a new suspect, whether it's a new person who you learned was in the home at a different time for a different reason. But its value is if you do get a suspect and that DNA matches, that puts him wherever that DNA was recovered, which is going to be a value.
HUNT: So, Charles, I mean how important could the DNA be, not only for potentially finding this person, but also potentially ruling people out? I mean, is that a possibility? I mean, the sheriff has said, of course, that everyone is being looked at.
CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, I mean John covered it. I mean, first of all, if a person's in the database, then its easy to find out, you know, who that individual is and but you can use it to eliminate people. You can use it -- you use it to put people on the scene.
I mean, I always look at DNA as being kind of like the 21st century version of fingerprints. I mean, and it's done very, very much the same. You eliminate folks, or you can sit down and have a serious conversation with someone else who, you know, happened to be in that particular house at the time, or wore that glove. We just don't -- we don't know where they retrieved the DNA
MILLER: And, Kasie, I mean, as Chief Ramsey points out, if you have a suspect and you say, have you ever been in that house? And he says, no, no never.
And that DNA, let's say, came from inside the house -- well, that becomes a very important clue because now you have a false, you know, exculpatory statement. You have a scientific proof to a high degree of certainty that that statement is not true.
So it could be very valuable, or it could be somebody where they just don't know who it is that was passing through.
HUNT: So, John, of course, they've doubled the reward for anyone who comes forward who can find -- this person find Nancy Guthrie. Can you explain why they did that? And if you think it would make a real difference?
MILLER: Well, I think it's going to make a real difference. And I think the why is told in the story from the day before, you had a $50,000 reward being offered by the FBI, and then you had an anonymous individual writing into TMZ saying that they could provide the name of the kidnapper for one bitcoin, or $66,000 but didn't offer any proof beforehand. It was like, pay me and then I'll tell you, which is really not a deal. That makes sense, since you don't know if they're ever going to tell you if it's going to be right or you ever hear from them again.
By raising the official FBI reward to more than double that, now you're going to -- good, decent citizens aren't going to provide the information for the reward. They're going to provide the information to do the right thing. People who are on the margins about, I don't know, should I even call this in? But what if it's right? I could get the reward, they'll call it in.
Once you get to the $100,000 range or north, even some of the bad guys who might not ever come forward will look at that kind of money and say, I can make a deal, and I could get 100 grand. So, expanding it expands your potential pool of likely tipsters.
HUNT: All right. John Miller, chief Charles Ramsey, thank you both very much. Really appreciate your time today.
Ahead here in THE ARENA, we're going to have much more of our coverage from here at the Munich Security Conference.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:46:45] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): Here's what I tell my European friends: Greenland is behind us, but the goal is to get outcomes. Who gives a shit who owns Greenland? I don't.
So, the point is, Greenland is going to be more fortified because Donald Trump, once he feels like it's his brand or his some buy in, is going to go big
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Trump ally, Senator Lindsey Graham, coming here to Munich with that message for European allies, Greenland? Who cares?
President Trump's desire to acquire the Danish territory has, of course, roiled relations with America's European allies in recent months. The Danish prime minister met today to discuss Greenland when she meets with the Secretary of State Marco Rubio here at the security conference.
Our panel is here in THE ARENA, lead global security analyst for "The Washington Post" intelligence, Josh Rogin; Democratic Congressman Jason Crow, he sits on the House Armed Services and Intelligence Committees; and "The New York Times" journalist and CNN political and national security analyst, David Sanger.
Welcome to all of you. Thank you very much for being here.
Congressman, you and a number of your Democratic colleagues have come over here. A number of Republicans are missing because of the speaker of the House and some other -- other situations. But what have you found here on the ground? Do you agree with Lindsey Graham's assessment that no one cares about Greenland?
REP. JASON CROW (D-CO): Well, the last time, I checked, Americans do care about sovereignty. They do care about friends, and they care about having power and having safety. And America is never more powerful and safe and secure than when we have friends. And you don't have friends when you act like a bully and you turn your national security and foreign policy apparatus into a racketeering operation, and you run it like you're an organized crime boss, like this president has done it is absurd. It's undermining our national security. It's undermining the welfare of the American people.
So, I came here with my Democratic colleagues to say, enough is enough. America deserves better. Our allies deserve better. We are going to talk about what a real vision for working class national security looks like for the American people.
HUNT: And do you think that the leaders here are buying it, or do they think that Trump's version of America is here to stay?
CROW: Well, what we have to do is show people like, I'm done with talk. They're done with talk. The American people are done with talk. Now it's the time to actually start delivering real progress for working class Americans.
I went to war three times in Iraq and Afghanistan. We spent 20 years at war. We spent trillions of dollars of taxpayer dollars. Thousands -- thousands of Americans die -- died. Tens of thousands were wounded.
And for what? Most of those wars ended poorly. That's just one of many examples about how our national security failed for working class folks. It's going to change. It has to change. And I'm here to help deliver that change.
HUNT: David Sanger, this is not your first rodeo here in Munich.
DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Yeah.
HUNT: You have --
SANGER: I remember when it was a small little conference.
[16:50:00]
HUNT: You have seen it all, proverbially speaking. I mean, can you kind of give us the sort of shape and texture of where we're going here as a free world?
SANGER: Well, first, the Munich security conference was usually a celebration of the alliance and the coming together of American officials and their European counterparts. There were differences. Think about the Iraq war the run up to that, when obviously the Europeans opposed. Four years ago, the European foreign ministers who were running around in this hotel were telling me Putin is bluffing. He's not really going to invade.
They were completely wrong and the Americans turned out to be right. What's happened now, though, is the complete flip. You're not hearing Americans talk very much about Ukraine. And when they do, it's from the administration officials, it's usually to say, this is Europe's problem, first and foremost, were here to give you nuclear backup. But you're -- you're here to go fight your conventional wars.
And on the one hand, the Europeans did need to step up. And you heard that today from Chancellor Merz. On the other hand, when they see things like the Greenland event, they say, what is this? Why are -- why is Europe itself under potential attack? The president took an attack off the off the table when he was -- last month, when he was in Switzerland.
HUNT: Josh Rogin, you and I were talking in the in the lead up here about what this is going to mean what the takeaway is going to be for America's role in the world what are you finding in these halls?
JOSH ROGIN, LEAD GLOBAL SECURITY ANALYST: Right. Most years here at the Munich security conference, the discussion centers around how do we protect ourselves from Russia. Some years, it's about how do we protect ourselves from China? Today, most of what I heard from European countries is how do we protect ourselves from the United States? They call it de-risking. It means reducing their dependance on us
because they don't believe that U.S. foreign policy is going to return to a pro-Europe stance anytime soon. And there's nothing that anyone, including the congressmen and or I could say that's going to convince them of that because we have at least three more years of a Trump administration that's dedicated towards criticizing Europe while also trying to work with Europe. And it just doesn't really work.
So, we have a dual message. We want to work with Europe, and we want to criticize Europe.
And the Europeans, for very understandable reasons, are looking elsewhere. They're looking towards India, they're looking towards China, they're looking towards Africa, they're looking towards South America.
They want to form alliances with other middle powers in order to not be dependent on China or the United States and who could blame them? Okay?
Now, whether or not they're able to pull it off is another question. But until something changes in U.S. foreign policy, the mood here in Munich will be -- well, the United States is no longer a dependable ally, and the facts bear out that case.
HUNT: Congressman, one thing I've found striking when you consider that, you know, this conference is often about the values that the free western world has always held in high esteem, is that you and a number of your colleagues were almost indicted, or at least the Trump administration was trying to indict you in a grand jury. I talked to one of the colleagues of yours that's in that video, Elissa Slotkin earlier.
I want to play a little bit of what she said in our conversation. We'll talk about it. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Do you think they're going to try again to indict you?
SEN. ELISSA SLOTKIN (D-MI): I mean, past behavior is best indicator of future behavior. They've tried with people like Tish James, three different courts, three different locations. And, you know I wouldn't be surprised if they tried it again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: What does it say that it is Americans who are here at this conference with a president of the United States who is attempting to indict members of Congress for something that they said?
CROW: Well, I've been beating the Trump administration so much recently, it's almost tiring, to be honest with you. I mean they tried to deny me access to an ICE detention center in my district a couple of weeks ago. So, I sued him and I won, and I got in. They tried to send me to prison earlier this week. We beat them. I'm
here. They tried to prevent me from coming to Munich by taking away our CODEL and our credentials. I'm here anyhow.
So, what it shows is that there are people who are stepping up to lead, who don't give a what this president says you can and can't do that. Take our oath seriously. That take our obligation to the American people and our status as members of Congress seriously, who are actually going to lead.
And this is not about me. This is not about Elissa Slotkin. It's not about Mark Kelly, and it's not about the video that we filmed.
What this is about is Donald Trump and his goons in the Department of Justice and Department of Defense trying to send a message to Americans that if you speak up, you say something you don't -- they don't like. You step out of line, that they will crush you.
That's what they're trying to do. And we are unwilling to ever let them send that message.
HUNT: Josh Rogin, do these leaders think Donald Trump do they treat him like an autocrat?
ROGIN: No. They treat him like a mob boss. They treat him like someone who has to be paid tribute to, because that's the message of U.S. foreign policy, is that everything is leverage tariffs are meant to achieve a means to an end. Pressure threats all of it is meant to essentially coerce other countries into doing what either Trump thinks is his interest, or what he thinks is in his family's interest, or what he thinks is in the U.S. national interest.
Either way, it's no longer about systems. It's no longer about institutions. It's no longer about norms. It's no longer about international organizations. It's about what does Trump want? And how do we get him what he wants? And sometimes they can do it, sometimes they can't.
HUNT: Yeah. We are unfortunately up against a heartbreak. Thank you all very much for being here.
Thanks to all of you for watching as well.
"THE LEAD" with Erica Hill is going to start after a quick break.
