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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt

Bondi Appearance Before House Judiciary Committee Devolves Into Repeated, Angry Shouting Matches With Lawmakers; Border Czar Announces End To Minnesota Immigration Operation; Tuesday: Early Voting Starts In Race That Could Shape Senate Control; 2004: Newsom Defies State Law To Issue Same-Sex Marriage Licenses. Aired 12-1p ET

Aired February 14, 2026 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: They were now competing as a married couple for the first time, and helped spur the U.S. figure skating team to victory.

That's all we have time for. Don't forget, you can find all of our shows online as podcasts at CNN.com/audio, and on all other major platforms. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. Thank you for watching, and see you again next week.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN HOST: Hi everyone, welcome to The Arena Saturday. Kasie Hunt is on assignment. I'm David Chalian.

It was a congressional hearing that even by today's standards, went really off the rails.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. TED LIEU (D), CALIFORNIA: I believe you just lied under oath. There is ample evidence in the Epstein file --

PAM BONDI, ATTORNEY GENERAL: Don't you ever accuse me of a crime.

LIEU: I believe you just --

REP. JERROLD NADLER (D), NEW YORK: How many have you indicted?

BONDI: Excuse me, I'm going to answer the question.

NADLER: Answer my question.

BONDI: No, I'm going to answer the question the way I want to answer the question.

NADLER: No, you're going to answer the question the way I ask it. How many have you indicted.

BONDI: Chairman Jordan, I'm not going to get into gutter with this people. This is a political joke and I need to give my answer on that? This guy has Trump derangement syndrome. He needs to -- you're a failed politician.

(CROSSTALK) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chairman, she's embarrassing you. This is your committee, and she is embarrassing you.

BONDI: Shame on you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can let her filibuster all day long, but not on our watch. Not on our time, no way. And I told you about that, Attorney General, before you started.

BONDI: You don't tell me anything.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, oh, I did tell you, because we saw what you did in the Senate.

BONDI: Who said you're a lawyer, not even a lawyer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHALIAN: That was Attorney General Pam Bondi sparring with Democrats and one Republican on the House Judiciary Committee this week. On everything from the Epstein files to immigration and even the economy, Bondi was clearly playing it up for that audience of one in the Oval Office.

In fact, thanks to a photo of her notes, we know that the Attorney General came prepared for a partisan punching match. She even brought a list of which unredacted Epstein files one Democratic representative accessed. It makes you wonder, what is the point of congressional hearings anymore?

My panel is here in The Arena. CNN Legal Analyst, Former Federal Prosecutor, Elliot Williams, host of the Interview podcast from the New York Times and CNN Contributor, Lulu Garcia-Navarro, former DNC Communications Director, Mo Elleithee, and former senior adviser to the Trump campaign, Bryan Lanza. Welcome all.

Elliot, I guess I'll start with you. You've had some experience up on Capitol Hill. Does that reflect the oversight function that was designed?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Legitimate legislative inquiry is the language in the law. I don't think this was legitimate legislative inquiry, but it's gone that way. For years, Congress has become a little bit of a -- or the House in particular, a place for brawls. I would note, not just the Attorney General, Robert F. Kennedy, RFK Jr.'s recent oversight hearings have also been quite pugnacious.

Now, that said, this was something special and something different with the direct attacks on members of Congress, but we've been seeing some stuff like this for some time.

CHALIAN: Yes, I mean, she did this back in the fall when she was up on the Hill as well. This is clearly a tactic. I want you to hear, Lulu, this one moment where she just completely did not answer the question asked and get your response on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BONDI: None of them asked Merrick Garland over the last four years one word about Jeffrey Epstein. How ironic is that? You know why? Because Donald Trump, the Dow, the Dow right now is over, the Dow is over $50,000 -- I don't know why you're laughing. You're a great stock trader, as I hear, Raskin.

The Dow has shattered $50,000 for the first time. This is crazy. They said it couldn't be done in four years, yet President Trump has done it in one year.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHALIAN: Lulu, what does the Dow and its performance have to do with this hearing?

LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: David Chalian, why are you asking me a question like that? I am going to answer the question that I think I should ask. I mean, oh my Lord, this was a disaster. They're making fun of her on Fox News, which as you know is -- that's when it really hurts because that's what the president watches.

And if she was trying to curry favor with him, I don't think that she did a very good job. That sort of pivot to the Dow. I think you can pivot to the Dow maybe, but not when you're answering an Epstein question. It's a little bit too much of a leap.

Obviously deflection and just a disqualifying performance for our most senior lawmaker in this country -- rather, most senior law enforcement official in this country.

WILLIAMS: So having prepped Attorney General Holder and Lynch, it's a common tactic to tell them, validate the question and then get to safe ground. Something that you feel comfortable talking about.

[12:05:07]

This Dow business was utter bonkersness that no one --

GARCIA-NAVARRO: And it's a meme everywhere now.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: It's like everywhere's a meme. It's like someone saying, did you cheat on me? It's like, but the Dow is at $50,000.

CHALIAN: I mean, might not, Mo, do you think that the president in the Oval Office, maybe he doesn't like the memes or being mocked on Fox News, but he certainly likes his team to doubt the success of the Dow.

MO ELLEITHEE, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, DNC: He -- she was performing for an audience of one, but that audience of one does pay attention to Fox, does pay attention to internet memes. And if he feels like it's being -- it's leading to he and his administration and his emissaries being mocked by their own people, like that's shaky ground to be on. It was a disqualifying performance by someone who is increasingly becoming disqualified by the American people.

Her approval ratings, the Department of Justice's approval ratings under her have plummeted. And she dropped any pretense of being an attorney general, right? She embraced the role of partisan, pit bull, attack dog. Yes, you shift to safe ground. Safe ground may be within your purview.

CHALIAN: Yes.

ELLEITHEE: The Dow is not within her purview. She was not there to be an attorney general and people noticed.

CHALIAN: Yes, I mean, Trump did have her back on Truth Social, said she did a good job. Bryan, I want you to hear a conservative radio host and commentator, Erick Erickson, who sometimes is in Trump's camp, sometimes not. I mean, this is not somebody who is just a reliably anti-Trump Republican. That's not -- he's a real conservative and has a real following. And I want you to hear his reaction to Bondi's hearing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERICK ERICKSON, HOST, "4 THINGS TO KNOW THIS AFTERNOON": But you are the attorney general of the United States of America who said you had the Epstein file on your desk and you did not and did the dog and pony show with the white binders. And now this is your answer? Can Pam Bondi please resign or be fired?

This is not only disrespectful to those who actually take the matter seriously, it's a stupid answer from the attorney general of the United States. It's a stupid answer and it just makes her look like she's beclowning herself. Oh my gosh, what an idiot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHALIAN: Resign or be fired?

BRYAN LANZA, SENIOR ADVISER, TRUMP 2024 CAMPAIGN: It was very difficult to watch. I think the coverage matters. The question I have is, is Saturday Night Live filming this weekend? Because if Saturday Night Live is filming this weekend and this becomes a skit and it will be super viral on Saturday Night Live, that's when Trump says, OK, we've turned out from being ineffective that she now looks like a fool and that's bad. And Trump usually uses those types of cultural, you know, cultural benchmarks to define what's going to happen next.

ELLEITHEE: I mean, if they're not filming, they could just air the clip, right? And it's dead and it would serve the same purpose.

LANZA: This is the Saturday Night Live spin that just brutalized it.

ELLEITHEE: It was bicycle --

GARCIA-NAVARRO: She's been on shaky ground though, right? I mean, she's been on shaky ground for quite some time and starting with actually the release of the Epstein, you know, quote unquote, "files." CHALIAN: Getting to, yes.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yes, and so when she was, you know, basically giving them old material to all these influencers and on and on, there've been a lot of missteps with Pam Bondi. And so, I would not be surprised if at some point she has shown the door, but you know, we have seen this administration stick by many of the people that they have put at the head of these agencies that have really beclowned themselves in other ways and they're still there.

CHALIAN: And my question is this, she's on the front lines of the retribution agenda that Trump has and clearly talks about and that doesn't seem to be going well either. I mean, grand juries are turning the president down time and again on the retribution list.

WILLIAMS: Right, lost in all of this is that yes, the president has committed to go after -- going after his enemies, they've had a remarkably poor record in the courts, regardless of what anyone thinks of the moral rightness of going after what they perceive to be a weaponized justice department. Both judges and juries, and quite frankly, a lot of the American public, simply have rejected what all of these efforts, the most recent being, you know, not indicting, who was it just yesterday, or just earlier in the week, rejecting an indictment for Mark Kelly.

And so it just keeps happening. They have failed in the courts and the public's turning on it as well.

LANZA: I would add too that usually what would help the attorney general is crime going down, but I think Trump credits crime going down to, you know, the mass deportation that's taking place. So she can't even sort of claim that complete victory, that crime's going down because Trump attributes the reason crime's going down is the Homeland Security Department. So it's just a weakened position she's in for sure.

CHALIAN: Yes. OK, coming up next in The Arena, voters are about to weigh in on one of the first big Senate showdowns of the 2026 midterms. We're looking at what Republicans are doing to keep control and how Democrats are eyeing some potential upsets.

[12:10:10]

Plus, the White House says it's ending its federal immigration operation in Minneapolis, but are they really?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM HOMAN, WHITE HOUSE BORDER CZAR: For those that say we are backing down from immigration enforcement or the promise of mass deportations, you are simply wrong. President Trump made a promise of mass deportation and that's what this country's going to get.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[12:15:06]

GOV. TIM WALZ (D), MINNESOTA: As soon as they can pack their stuff, book a plane, move on, I would volunteer. We will help you get to the airport. We will clear the roads to get you to the airport. I will come over and pack your damn bags if that's what it takes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHALIAN: Minnesota Governor Tim Walz this week, just after the White House said it was ending the federal immigration operation in his state. White House Border Czar Tom Homan calls it a, quote, "success" and says their objectives were achieved.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOMAN: But those that say we are backing down from immigration enforcement or the promise of mass deportations, you are simply wrong. President Trump made a promise of mass deportation and that's what this country's going to get.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHALIAN: The operation and its tactics drew nationwide scrutiny and bipartisan backlash after the killing of two U.S. citizens, Renee Good and Alex Pretti by federal agents. And recent polling shows 62 percent of Americans believe the president has gone too far in sending federal immigration agents into cities with independent voters in particular growing increasingly uncomfortable with the tactics.

Is this a rare White House retreat? That brings us to our quote of the week with Governor Tim Walz saying this was the administration realizing they had a, quote, "albatross around their neck."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WALZ: I think as I said again, it became very clear to the administration, especially after the murders of Renee and Alex and the horrific actions of these agents on the ground that an issue the president saw himself as being strong, certainly politically, has eroded into a albatross around their neck. And so I think and my take was they knew they needed to get out of here but in very Trumpian fashion, they needed to save face.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHALIAN: My panel is back. Bryan, what do you make of Governor Walz's political analysis there? Accurate or not?

LANZA: Yes, listen, I think what's accurate is is that the administration, you know, needed to get out of there. They needed to get out of there fast, right? Whether it was an albatross is still to be determined because at the end of the day, you know, the administration is going to go back to its mass deportation but without these sensational images that you see, my suspicion is going to go into more red states where there's a more cooperative approach and you'll see those numbers boost up. You'll have red city mayors, red states. Sort of assist the administration and they're hoping to turn the page.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: But this was catastrophic. 62 percent --

LANZA: Brutal.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: -- on what was his strongest issue. And now this is 62 percent of Americans saying that this has gone too far. And part of the problem is they wanted this. They were the ones that said -- sent Greg Bovino into, you know, Minneapolis and Minnesota in the middle of the country.

They were the ones that were helping to pump out all those images of him smashing windows and wandering around town like he was in Grand Theft Auto. I mean, this was a catastrophe of their own making.

WILLIAMS: Yes, and they also are -- I think the public now sees what it means to remove a million people from the country, right? It's a lot of the mass deportation push was abstract to many people. Well, this is now the face of it. And I think, yes, it was certainly a political strength for the president, but they've done themselves perhaps an irreparable amount of damage with the public reception of what it means to remove that many people.

LANZA: It's fascinating to me, you know, as a Californian seeing Republicans always mismanage this illegal immigration issue.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

LANZA: You know, when I started in politics, we had Proposition 187. Proposition 187 really cut services, you know, state service to illegal aliens. Overwhelmingly had supported Latino community when it was on the ballot. And then the application of it at the state level turned off Latinos so much that the Republican Party died in existence because of the approach that Latinos felt that they were taking.

Same thing here. Trump's policies were popular at the ballot box, but it's the tactics that are hurting. My hope is that they adjust the taxes because the policy still works. The policy we see, we do focus groups. They still want illegal immigration cut -- they still want illegal immigration reversed, but it's clearly the tactic that's a different issue.

ELLEITHEE (?): Yes.

WILLIAMS: But again, that's so abstract. When you say we want illegal immigration reversed, does that mean your nanny? Does that mean the person you go to church with? And does that mean, you know, white people on the streets of --

CHALIAN (?): Right.

WILLIAMS: -- Minneapolis, which is what ultimately has been happening in practice and people have seen the images of, and they just don't like what they're seeing.

ELLEITHEE: When voters say that, they say, like you promised, by going after the dangerous -- the people who have committed crimes. That's what we want. And yes, we want to close the border. We don't want you to send the border patrol to militarize the interior.

And we sure as hell don't want to see you shooting people as a result. And that's why when you hear Homan say, and the administration say, even in retreat, this operation was a success, you're going to see that in every single midterm ad around the country, juxtaposed against the images of what we've been seeing in the Oval (ph).

[12:20:05]

CHALIAN: To this point, after Homan announced the retreat, he went on Fox News and added this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOMAN: We've achieved what we came here for. This is like any other surge operation. LA, it ended. Los Angeles, it ended. Charlotte, it ended. New Orleans, it ended. This is ending the surge, but we're not going away.

And let me say this, over 800 flights a day land in St. Paul, Minnesota. If we need to come back, we'll come back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHALIAN: So Bryan, is this a retreat or is it not?

LANZA: No, listen, this is a retreat to get those images that we've seen with respect to the protesters, with respect to ICE pulling people out of cars. You're not going to see these -- those images. What you're still going to see is a concentrated effort to find illegal aliens wherever they are and deport them.

My assumption is the tactics will no longer -- you know, we'll focus on the red states, you know, red state governors, red state mayors, where you see more collaborative effort, Texas, Florida, and you'll be able to sort of show those numbers and change the images. But the Republican Party has a brush fire on this. Like, they've gone too far.

ELLEITHEE: Well, we continue to see them pulling over and grabbing people with brown skin simply because they have brown skin and asking to see their papers? Will we continue to see them snatching -- those images of them snatching little children? And --

LANZA: Here's my problem with that whole thing is, is the reason you have Customs and Border Patrol is doing those types of tactics is because blue city mayors who refuse to cooperate. When they go to red may -- when they go to red city mayors, you have local law enforcement that's handling the crowd control, that's assisting those matters.

When you do it in blue states, blue refuses to cooperate. These sanctuaries just refuse to have local law enforcement support. So now you have people who are not trained in that part trying to do this crowd control. That's not the role of Customs and Borders. That's the role of local law enforcement. And I think the blue city mayors and blue state governors have failed the community in addressing that.

ELLEITHEE: And helping can have and should have a longer debate about how much blue city mayors are rejecting or refusing to help. The problem is the federal government is coming in with these tactics, these heavy handed tactics, not even giving a chance with no true mandate, just grabbing people off the streets.

If they were to say we're coming in because we are going to focus on those that are -- that have committed the most heinous crimes, you do see mayors --

CHALIAN: But on the pure politics of this, Lulu, you talked about the president giving away a great strength of his -- this whole conversation about the enforcement piece, he still gets credit on closing down the border and the border piece, and yet it seems that because of the tactics of enforcement, that has supplanted what even immigration means in the minds of voters.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Well, immigration isn't just the border.

CHALIAN: Right.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: And always, for those of us who understand immigration, it's always an enormous frustration that it becomes the border. And so that's maybe one of the good things that actually we're talking about immigration writ large. But I think there's another problem here.

And this is where I'm going to get into Bad Bunny. Because if you are -- no, and there's a reason for this. Because if you are telling people we're going after, you know, illegal immigration because we want to make this country safer, et cetera, et cetera, that's a message that sells.

But if you are having what we saw in Minneapolis coupled with, actually, we don't want you speaking Spanish on television, and, you know, the entire racist wing of the Republican Party coming after Latinos and people who speak Spanish, that sends a completely different message, which is, we don't want you here, and that's why we're coming to get you.

CHALIAN: Coming up in The Arena, we are now just three days away from the first votes in one of the first big races of the 2026 midterms, with the Senate race in Texas getting messier by the day. What the new polls say about which candidates could make it to the general election, and how it will impact the battle for control of the U.S. Senate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wonder, like, is there times in which the rhetoric goes too far? There are times in which you should say, you know, maybe I messed that one up. REP. JASMINE CROCKETT (D), TEXAS: No. Not in this environment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[12:28:23]

CROCKETT: The reason I personally believe that the Democratic brand has been struggling as it relates to their popularity is because people feel as if the Democrats play by the rules, and frankly, I think Americans want everybody to play by the rules. Let me just level set there.

I think whether you're a Democrat, Republican, or Independent, they actually want a government that is very boring and just plays by the rules, that keeps things kind of going. But, unfortunately, that's not where we are.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHALIAN: Voting is already happening in some key races of the 2026 midterms, and what happens in these early primaries will give us a window into which party might be in a better position to control the United States Senate. Democrats are defending 13 seats this cycle, and Republicans, 14 seats.

On Tuesday, early voting begins in Texas. Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett, who you just heard there, is in a pretty close race for the Democratic Senate nomination. She's facing James Talarico, a state representative who gained notoriety for an appearance on Joe Rogan's podcast and was a public face during the Texas redistricting battle last year.

On the Republican side, incumbent Senator John Cornyn is trying to hang on to a seat he's held since 2002. But recent polling suggests he may not even make it out of the primary battle with State Attorney General Ken Paxton.

My panel is back. I want to show you, we got a poll from the University of Houston this week. Take a look here on both sides, because it's a real amazing contest on both sides of the aisle here. Ken Paxton at 38 percent support. John Cornyn, the incumbent, at 31 percent among Republicans there. And in the Democratic primary, Jasmine Crockett is at 47 percent of this poll, to James Talarico's 39 percent, Mo, when you look at that Democratic poll result there, does the frontrunner there in this poll, Jasmine Crockett, do you think she puts the dream that Democrats have long had about putting Texas into play, does she put it more into play, or does she take it more off the board for your party?

[12:30:22]

MO ELLEITHEE, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, DNC: Well, part of the answer to that question is what happens on the Republican column, and who the Republicans make. Look, I don't make predictions in politics anymore, in elections anymore, because voters tend to have a funny way of proving people like us wrong too often. I do think it's a fascinating Democratic primary between two candidates who in many ways rise to the moment of what Democratic primary voters are looking for.

Democratic primary voters are for people who will punch back, who will fight, fight, fight. They do it very differently though. Crockett and Talarico are both fighters, and they both have a proven record of being fighters, but in very, very different ways. She brings a sort of celebrity and a communication style that's powerful to a lot of voters. Talarico I don't sleep on, even with numbers like that, because the guy's been organizing in a legitimate way long before she got into the race, and in a low-turnout primary, we don't know what turnout's going to be, but in a primary, that actually counts for something. So I'm popping the popcorn and getting ready to see the results when they come in.

CHALIAN: Now, Ryan, on your side of the equation, the President has not formally gotten involved in backing one candidate or the other, but that is not stopping Ken Paxton from releasing this ad this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's going to take a patriot like Ken Paxton to make America great again.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He's very, very talented. He's a very talented guy. And a really great attorney general. Ken Paxton, tremendous guy. I wish I had him in the White House with me. The great Ken Paxton.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHALIAN: Do you think Republican primary voters might be confused that he's not actually a Trump-endorsed candidate?

BRYAN LANZA, SENIOR ADVISER, TRUMP 2024 CAMPAIGN: No, I think they do think he's the endorsed candidate. I mean, that's the advantage that Ken has, having been jumped in early for Trump. I remember dealing with Ken in 2016, I was trying to get on T.V. and do more things. So he is the purest of the purest.

And, you know, listen, it's going to be a tough race in the general election. My hope and dream is that Crockett is the nominee, because it doesn't matter if Ken Paxton is, we will be able to survive that. If it's Talarico against Paxton, I think Republicans for the first time may lose Texas.

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: What's interesting, literally what we saw from that poll, though, is that the individual that the other party wants to run against is leading on both sides.

LANZA: Yes, yes.

WILLIAMS: Now, to your point, it's traditionally red state but. CHALIAN: And then at the end of the day, Texas may not be the determining factor in which party controls the United States Senate. It will be -- it will get a lot of attention, but I would imagine it will be more about Maine and North Carolina and Georgia and Michigan and Iowa and Alaska and before we get to Texas in terms of what the Democrats would need to get the seats that they need to win control. But that takes me to the larger point about Lulu. Take a look at these stats.

This is about first-term midterms, and this is Donald Trump's second term. But if you look here, look at just how presidents have performed in their midterms when they're in their first term. A loss of nine House seats there in 22 for Biden, 40 seats were lost in Trump's 28 midterms. I mean, this is, the Bush 2002, a year after 9/11 is the exception here. But midterms are tough for the incumbent party and the president, and in this environment and where the president's numbers are, I don't know that you can point to anything right now that suggests that history will be defied here.

LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: No, I think he and the Republicans are in for a tough election. That said, they're betting on the economy picking up, tax breaks. They're hoping that, you know, the idea of your wallet being the most important thing, that they can turn that around in time. I don't know if that theory of the case is going to work, because there's a great deal of anger, and people just aren't feeling it with the economy, even if they get some checks in the mail from the taxman. But, you know, we've still got a ways to go.

ELLEITHEE: But as a backup, they're also trying to count on redistricting. And a lot of the gains that we've seen around the country, the reason --

CHALIAN: And overwhelming cash.

ELLEITHEE: -- and the reason that may not work is when a -- there was that special election in Texas just a couple of weeks ago, where a plus 14-point Trump district swung by an almost equal margin to the Democrats for the first time. We'll see.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: And that was because of Latinos, in large part. And Latinos are mad, as I have been saying. Yes.

LANZA: I think you've seen a shift in the administration. You haven't necessarily seen it more on T.V. or even in the coverage. But you've seen President Trump ease off of these tariffs. He's paused a lot of these tariffs, sort of recognizing that they're driving costs. That's going to have an impact. When he announces a new -- when the new Fed chairman gets sworn in, that Fed chairman has the ability to drop interest rates by a point to a point and a half. That has an immediate impact. Trump still has a lot of tools to change the economy in his favor, especially because some trends are already moving in his direction.

[12:35:12]

They're not moving in the opposite direction, like it was under Biden. Voters, actually, their lives are better, economically better today than they were under Biden two years ago. It's just not fast enough.

WILLIAMS: That's a lot of variables, though. I mean, your points were well taken.

CHALIAN: Yes.

WILLIAMS: It's a lot of variables.

LANZA: Yes, correct.

WILLIAMS: Sorry?

CHALIAN: No, Mo was saying the American public does not yet show that they're feeling it.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: But wait, guys. Wait, wait, wait. We've missed this big thing. The Dow --

LANZA: That's another example.

WILLIAMS: All this to say history is not in the President's favor. Recent polling is not in the President's favor. And he's not doing well on his two big issues right now, the economy and immigration. Look, it's still Texas. At the end of the day, it is still Texas. But the idea that all these things need to break the President's way just right now, like you said, voters aren't feeling it.

CHALIAN: OK, coming up in The Arena, the decision a young mayor made 22 years ago this week and what he's saying about it now as he thinks about a run for the White House.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D-CA): I do not believe it's appropriate for me as mayor of San Francisco to discriminate against people. And if that means my political career ends, so be it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[12:40:57]

NEWSOM: I believe very strongly. I do not believe in advancing separate but unequal status. I do not believe in advancing discrimination. I've got an obligation to stand on principle and not abdicate for another day, not wait another month. I do not believe it's appropriate for me as mayor of San Francisco to discriminate against people. And if that means my political career ends, so be it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHALIAN: Twenty-two years ago this week, a young Gavin Newsom was less than 40 days into his new job as mayor of San Francisco when he unleashed a political firestorm. He ordered the city clerk to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples. That defied California law and led to a month-long period dubbed the Winter of Love, when the city issued nearly 4,000 licenses. Newsom's unilateral move drew widespread criticism, even from members of his own party, to which the mayor said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NEWSOM: The courts could have stopped us. The courts have not stopped us. The system is working. There's certain principles that I hold dear, and the principle of non-discrimination, of advancing human rights and civil rights, affirming marriage, affirming relationships and families, like we've done for 3,000 plus couples. That's significant. That's purposeful. And I believe very strongly what we're doing is appropriate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHALIAN: Later that year, California's Supreme Court officially ruled that Newsom had exceeded his authority and effectively rendered the thousands of licenses that were issued by the city of San Francisco null and void. The outcome of that case kicked off a national conversation and boosted a movement that ultimately led to the legalization of same-sex marriage nationwide in 2015. Since then, the public backing has grown significantly, with 69 percent of Americans saying they support same-sex marriage in 2024.

My panel is back. I, in my entire time uncovering national politics in my career, I've never seen an issue move with the speed with which same-sex marriage moved, in public opinion.

WILLIAMS: I think it's absolutely right. Now, the question is, where does it go from here? I do question whether there's been a backlash, certainly over the last decade or so, with respect to same-sex marriage. And I would also note, the Supreme Court, the current makeup of the court does not seem entirely receptive to preserving Obergefell, the Supreme Court decision, and others that have followed it, and keeping them intact in the same way they are. Now, certainly it's the law right now, but I just wonder what the next 20 years of same-sex marriage looks like in America.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Well, I think public opinion says that it is here to stay, and so it should be. I mean, at this point, it's been the law of the land. And what are you going to do, you know, dissolve people's marriages who love each other and have families? That would be absolutely absurd.

To the point, though, of looking back at Gavin Newsom, which is a very interesting sort of data point for what is expected to be his presidential bid, that was a very brave decision. That was something that really kick-started an entire movement in this country. And I think, you know, I had forgotten about it, quite frankly, that he was at the center of that. And I think reminding people of that, especially Democratic voters, will help him.

CHALIAN: But he has also been one of the Democrats eyeing 2028, who, when it comes to the issue of trans sports, was in a different place than many in his party was in. Take a listen to Gavin Newsom much more recently on a recent podcast.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NEWSOM: Everywhere I went, progressively-minded people, not bigots, that are champions of trans policy, like I am, but didn't like the sports. It's like, come on, man, you got to do something. Because you oppose sports does not make you a bigot, doesn't make you homophobic. And my party needs to stop saying that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHALIAN: Mo, does that cause him any problem inside a potential Democratic presidential primary race?

[12:44:59]

ELLEITHEE: In a primary race? Maybe. Look, I haven't always been the biggest Gavin Newsom fan within the party. I think he's done a lot of great things. And that is, I think, the same-sex marriage was one of his stronger moments. It was politically safe for him to do as the mayor of San Francisco, but it actually had short-term devastating effects politically for the Democratic Party. Because of that, Karl Rove put same-sex marriage ballot initiatives on state ballots across the country in 2004, which a lot of people think helped George W. Bush survive a strong challenge from John Kerry could have changed the direction.

CHALIAN: Certainly in a place like Ohio. Yes.

ELLEITHEE: Place like Ohio. But in the arc of history, he was right. And he did force an issue that led to such a major shift in public opinion, to your point. It's not just that, like, you don't see the same kind of strong calls to repeal, like, organized movement to repeal same-sex marriage the way you saw a sustained long effort to overturn Roe v. Wade. The American people have legitimately shifted on this issue, and he was on the front end of it.

CHALIAN: Bryan, when Gavin Newsom said that in 2004, that was eight years before Barack Obama joined that position.

LANZA: Yes, and it's interesting. Barack Obama was, you know, when he campaigned for president, he was against gay marriage. Listen, I think, you know, I'm from California. I remember when this took place in California. It had a huge impact on our races in California, because the polling immediately came back that said the black community wasn't supportive of gay marriage, the Latino community wasn't supportive of gay marriage, and people had to readjust how you won political campaigns.

And for a short term, Republicans gained a few legislative seats. They didn't do it on the congressional level because gerrymandering was just so extreme. But at the end of the day, you know, as it evolved, it evolved that more people, that the black community sort of joined. That allowed Barack Obama to come. The Latino community joined. And it only became a small faction of Republicans that opposed it. Because remember, the Republican Party itself is split on this issue among its own base.

ELLEITHEE: But that's remarkable.

LANZA: Yes.

ELLEITHEE: Even in and of itself, that the Republican Party, you know.

CHALIAN: Recently polling shown us a slight downtick in Republican support.

LANZA: Yes, but listen, what Gavin is doing with trans, he's also leading. He led in that 2002 moment on an issue that everybody didn't want to touch and didn't touch. He's -- at least for the Democrats, he's leading on this issue.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: He's taking ground on this issue, and it is popular with the American people, perhaps not the left of his party.

CHALIAN: Coming up, something totally different here. McDonald's is helping you class up your McNuggets. We'll explain.

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[12:52:31]

CHALIAN: When you think McDonald's, you think McFlurry or McNugget. But how about McCaviar? I'm sorry, what? In honor of Valentine's Day, McDonald's is hoping you pair caviar with their famous nuggets. Because nothing says Valentine's like McDonald's, right? This week, they gave away kits, which included a one ounce tin of McNugget caviar, creme fraiche, a mother of pearl caviar spoon, along with a $25 gift card to buy fresh McNuggets.

Random pairing, we know. But the kits sold out within minutes. McDonald's told Food & Wine magazine that customers have wanted this for years. It even got the Rihanna stamp of approval back in 2024.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You have your broke friend bringing the nugget.

RIHANNA, BARBADIAN SINGER AND BUSINESSWOMAN: I am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then you have your rich friend bring the caviar. You grab one of these delicacies.

RIHANNA: It's supposed to be pearl. Don't judge me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Boom.

RIHANNA: We're also eating nuggets.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cheers.

RIHANNA: All right, I thought this was some --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Am I about to steal my kid's nugget.

RIHANNA This is giving high, low pearl.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHALIAN: No word on if McDonald's number one fan in the Oval Office is actually interested in the caviar piece of the menu. What do you make? Caviar and McNuggets?

WILLIAMS: I'm all for it. I know that fast food restaurants have to modernize and reach new markets and so on. What I find fascinating, though, you know, it sold out very quickly. And I don't know if folks could read the words on the screen from the sold out page.

They said that if you still wish to class up your McDonald's experience, you know, we don't have any more caviar, but you can try our spicy hot honey sauce, which feels to me like, you know, that's just not the best replacement, maybe a glass of champagne or the $25 gift card for a mink stole or something. But I don't know. I think people who don't get their caviar get kind of a raw deal here.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I'll take the caviar and skip the McNuggets.

CHALIAN: That's it?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: That's it. Sorry. I love caviar. I like chicken McNuggets, too. I'd try it. I'm just not sure that this is like exactly what I would be giving my Valentine.

CHALIAN: I will tell you, as a former McDonald's employee, nobody once ever asked me for caviar when I was working there.

ELLEITHEE: And look, we always tell our kids not to yuck on someone else's yum. So I'm not going to yuck on anyone else's yum here if you enjoy this. Godspeed. I will trade you my caviar for your McNuggets, though, because the thing that bugs me is, like, why would you --

[12:55:04]

GARCIA-NAVARRO: But you have to buy my caviar, because I can't afford it.

ELLEITHEE: Why would you sully a perfectly good McNugget with anything other than the sauce?

LANZA: I think we're missing the champagne. How do you have caviar without champagne? But I don't know. You got to spruce a McDonald's food. You know, maybe caviar does it, but it's still McDonald's food.

WILLIAMS: Oh, how dare you?

CHALIAN: Well, thank you to my panel. I appreciate all of your good thoughts. And thank you for watching. You can see The Arena every weekday here on CNN at 4:00 p.m. Eastern. You can also catch up by listening to The Arena's podcast and follow the show on X and Instagram at TheArenaCNN. Enjoy the rest of your weekend. The news continues next on CNN.

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