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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt

Civil Rights Champion Rev. Jesse Jackson Dies At 84; Sheriff: DNA From Gloves Does Not Match Federal Database, DNA Found At Nancy Guthrie's Home Still Being Analyzed; Colbert Slams CBS For Refusing To Air Interview With Trump Critic; Hillary Clinton: Trump Admin "Continuing Cover-Up" On Epstein. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired February 17, 2026 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:02]

CLARE DUFFY, CNN TECH REPORTER: Lots to be watching for, as Mark Zuckerberg prepares to take the stand tomorrow.

Back to you.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: You can bet well be keeping an eye on that story tomorrow.

Clare Duffy, thank you so much for that.

"THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT" starts right now.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST: Hi, everyone. And welcome to THE ARENA. Kasie Hunt is off. I'm Abby Phillip.

Right now, new tributes are coming in as the nation mourns the passing of an American icon. The Reverend Jesse Jackson, a leader of the civil rights movement and an immensely influential figure in Democratic politics, died this morning at the age of 84.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REV. JESSE JACKSON, CIVIL RIGHTS LEADER: Our flag is red, white and blue, but our nation is rainbow, red, yellow, brown, black and white. We are all precious in God's sight.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: A son of South Carolina during the Jim Crow era, Jackson gained national attention as a close aide to the Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr.

He was there at the Lorraine Motel on that April day in 1968, when King was assassinated. Jackson continued to fight for civil rights and social justice in Chicago and around the nation.

He competed in the Democratic presidential primaries in 1984 and 1988 on a staunchly progressive platform. First, he was dismissed as a fringe candidate, but Jackson shocked the party establishment by garnering more support than any Black candidate had in the nation's history. And 20 years later, with the election of Barack Obama, Jackson said he saw his campaigns as having laid the groundwork.

In a statement, Barack and Michelle Obama said, quote, "We stood on his shoulders."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: I was born in the slum, but the slum was not born in me, and it wasn't born in you. And you can make it wherever you are tonight. You can make it. Hold your head high, stick your chest out. You can make it.

It gets dark sometimes, but the morning comes. Don't you surrender. Suffering breeds character. Character breeds faith. In the end, faith will not disappoint.

You must not surrender. You may or may not get there. But just know that you are qualified and you hold on and hold out.

We must never surrender. America will get better and better. Keep hope alive. Keep hope alive. Keep hope alive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Let's get off the sidelines and head into THE ARENA. My panel is here with me.

But first, I want to bring in someone who knew Reverend Jackson well, both in his political and his work as a religious and civil rights leader.

Joining me now in THE ARENA is Georgia Senator Raphael Warnock.

Senator, thank you so much for joining us on this day.

SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK (D-GA): Great to be here with you.

PHILLIP: So, Senator, I hope you don't mind, but I'll out you on your age here. You were born in 1969, one year --

WARNOCK: Yes.

PHILLIP: -- after Dr. King was killed. And right around the time that Reverend Jesse Jackson really became a national figure. So, your entire life he has been a public figure and I'm just wondering, you know, tell us about your earliest memories of him. And what did it mean to you to see a Black man from the south, from a church tradition really ascending to the heights that he was able to ascend to.

WARNOCK: Not only was he a public figure for me and millions of others, he was a larger than life figure, a living and breathing civil rights and human rights super hero, who captured my imagination as a young kid growing up in the '70s and '80s.

I knew early on that I would go into ministry, and his was the kind of public ministry that I sought to emulate even as a teenager. I remember hearing him in the high school gym when he came to my hometown of Savannah, Georgia. Here I was growing up in public housing, and I remember walking down the street to the Savannah Civic Center to hear Jesse Jackson. This man was running for president. He gave me a glimpse of what is possible and convinced me that I am somebody.

PHILLIP: Yeah. And that is a story that we hear so often from so many people of your generation and even beyond. And I wonder also, you know, you are from the state of Georgia.

[16:05:00]

And one of the things that Reverend Jackson really firmly believed in was the power that Black voters in the South in particular, had to influence their politics. And that started at a time when they were just fighting for the right to franchise. But it continued in the '70s and the '80s as he tried to say, look, it's not just the ability to vote. You have to get out and register to vote.

When you think about what he was trying to do there, do you think that it has been accomplished or is there more work to be done? What can you and your party learn from what Reverend Jackson tried to do?

WARNOCK: Well, he would be the first to say that there's so much more work to be done. But what Jesse Jackson accomplished was nothing less than transformational. He was with Martin Luther King Jr. in 1965 in Selma, pushing for voting rights.

But he advanced that work by taking the leap of entering electoral politics himself but not as a transactional politician. But as a transformational figure who brought the sensibilities and moral vocabulary of the civil rights movement and the prophetic Black church tradition to American politics.

And we should not tell ourselves an easy story about this, because not only did he have to push against the powers, as it were, he had to challenge the Democratic Party to do the right thing. He showed that the Democratic Party, the ways in which its winner take all system, was disenfranchising Black voters and others who could broaden our imagination of who could sit in these seats.

I'm sitting here as a United States senator from Georgia. And while I had to work hard to get here, I stand on the shoulders of the likes of the Reverend Jesse Jackson. His was a bold move. And if I might say, Abby, I'm finishing up your book, you did an amazing job. Telling that story and helping people to see the ways in which the work that he did and the things he accomplished were not inevitable. They were quite improbable.

But he stood up also to Black elites who had a limited vision of what a Black candidate could do. And all of us are better because of it.

PHILLIP: Well, thank you for saying that. I do appreciate it. I mean, this is a really important chapter, this political chapter. It's just one of the many chapters of his life, but it is a really important one because as you point out this winner take all system that used to determine how Democrats decided on their nominee when he pushed to get rid of that, that paved the way for Barack Obama to be elected.

And talk -- talk to me about what the impact of that journey from Jesse Jackson in 1984 and 1988, he runs, but he doesn't win. But he kicks up this sort of feeling of hope only for Barack Obama to later take up that mantle and run with it. Tell me about how important it was that that journey between Obama -- between Jesse Jackson and Obama?

WARNOCK: Well, you know, I talked to young people all the time who I think don't fully appreciate who Reverend Jackson was and what he achieved.

PHILLIP: Right.

WARNOCK: And I guess I'm getting to be one of elders, as it were. But, you know, we were all inspired by Barack Obama, and I was a big supporter of his. But Reverend Jackson laid the foundation for that in 1980, and 1984, 1988. There could be no 2008 without 1988. And even before that, Shirley Chisholm, her courage as a Black woman to stand up.

These -- change is not a straight line. It happens in fits and starts. You make steps forward. Sometimes you have steps back, sometimes the democracy expands. At other times it contracts.

But Reverend Jackson's story reminds us that even those contractions serve a purpose. Any woman who's given you birth -- who has given birth will tell you that contractions are necessary for new birth. We're going through one big contraction in this moment, but he would say to us, don't lose hope, keep hope alive. Keep the faith, and keep fighting for a nation that embraces all of us and gives every child a chance.

PHILLIP: I also wanted to get your thoughts about the faith tradition and what its role is in politics. I think there's a lot of Democrats I'm hearing these days talking about that. And when you listen to Reverend Jackson, he brought a moral framework into his politics.

[16:10:01]

And many people say that you do the same.

Do you think that it's time for more Democrats to be open about faith, to talk about it more, to utilize it more as a way of connecting with voters as they go about politics.

PHILLIP: Listen, something much deeper than politics is at stake here. The soul of our country is in danger. And many of the loudest voices of faith in our country are the meanest voices. They have a vision of the country that, in my view, is a far cry from the vision of the Old Testament prophets, the Hebrew prophets who said let justice roll down like waters and righteousness as a mighty stream, who told us to welcome the stranger and to center the poor.

Jesus is a victim of identity theft in American politics and American culture. And so, those of us who have been shaped by the faith that inspired Martin Luther King Jr. and for that matter, Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel and so many larger figures, Reverend Jesse Jackson.

We need that faith now more than ever. And it is something that I certainly try to center in my work every single day. I fight for the poor because my faith tells me to center the poor. And in the eyes of the poor, you get a glimpse of what God is like. That's who Jesse Jackson was, and it's now up to us to continue that work.

PHILLIP: And finally, before I let you go, you know, I think anybody who meets or interacts with Reverend Jackson, you come away from it with a very clear sense of who he is and what he's like. And I am curious about maybe the first time you met him. What was your first reaction or impression of him? We call him a larger-than-life figure. But what was that like for you?

WARNOCK: Well, I met him first as a teenager. You know, I had a little bit of time with him. And then in subsequent years, I was in college at Morehouse when -- when he was running for president. And in 1988, he's been a guest in my pulpit on many occasions as the pastor of Ebenezer Baptist Church.

And, you know, let me say that Reverend Jackson had a great sense of humor and that's something that people may not know if they haven't been up close to him. But he was a serious man, but a deep sense of humor. And there was a lot of laughter and a lot of jokes when we were together.

And he and others who had the honor of working alongside Dr. King would say the same thing about Dr. King. That's the thing that a lot of people don't know.

And I think the -- here it is. He was a happy warrior. And so, he was engaged in serious fights but like a good leader, he didn't take himself too seriously. And he was honored to do the work.

And as someone who watched Martin Luther King Jr. as he was slain on that balcony of the hotel and never lived to see 40, I think Jesse Jackson and those of his generation felt obligated to run until the wheels fell off, and that he did. He never grew tired of the struggle.

PHILLIP: Yeah, he was, in so many ways, relentless.

Senator Raphael Warnock, appreciate you very much joining us today. Thank you.

WARNOCK: Keep the faith.

PHILLIP: And my panel is here in THE ARENA. CNN political analyst, host and editorial director at Vox, Astead Herndon; former Fox News anchor Gretchen Carlson; CNN political commentator and former communications director for Vice President Kamala Harris, Jamal Simmons; and former Trump campaign manager Bill Stepien.

Jamal, I'm sure that you heard a lot of familiar things in what Reverend Warnock had to say, and particularly, there's a generational impact of young black people who for the first time ever in their lives, saw a black man on perhaps the highest stage they've ever seen a black person.

What was that like for you personally?

JAMAL SIMMONS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Absolutely. You know, in 1996, Ron Brown, who was commerce secretary, died in a tragic plane crash, and Jesse Jackson eulogized him at Metropolitan Baptist Church. And that night, Jesse Jackson talked about Brown as having talent, preparation determination, a strong ego. And then he said it wasn't his uniqueness, but it was his opportunity that gave him the chance at his greatness.

That was so much encapsulated Jesse Jackson also in that moment because it was high minded. It was comforting. It was prophetic. It challenged the status quo.

It also was a little self-serving. Jackson was up to try to be secretary of state in the Clinton administration, so he was setting the stage a little bit that night about why not just Ron Brown, but other people could be successful.

[16:15:07]

So, it kind of brought all the things together about Jesse Jackson's life.

And just if I could quickly, that summer 1996, I was a young political staffer. I was the official timekeeper for the '96 convention. And everybody who got up to speak, I had to give them a green light. When it was time to go, a yellow light when they were getting close, a red light when they were going over, flash the red light if they were going over too far.

Jesse Jackson got up to speak, he had his green light. He got close to his time. I gave him his yellow light, he went over his time. I gave him his red light. I started flashing the red light at him, and I hear in my earpiece, Jamal, stop flashing the lights at Reverend Jackson.

He went on for 21 minutes, which is about double the time he was supposed to speak.

PHILLIP: And it's worth noting, you know, Ron Brown was one of the top aides to Jackson in the 1988 campaign and helped him negotiate the rules and then later became chair of the DNC, so another huge impact that Jackson had on the party long term.

President Trump, Bill, today put out a statement and -- look, I'll be honest, a lot of it was about him, but I think he also really did touch on their true relationship that stemmed decades before Trump became a political figure. And I think a lot of people don't know that in the late 1990s, Donald Trump hosted, as he said in his post, Jesse Jackson and his Wall Street project in his Wall Street property downtown in New York City.

And they did have a relationship. Trump was a bit of a different person. But what did you think of what he had to say about just the fact that they could interact, even though, frankly, I think even at that time they probably had a lot that they disagreed on.

BILL STEPIEN, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN MANAGER: Sure. We've talked about him running for president twice, and he doubled his vote total from '84 to '88. We talk a lot about the black vote. He tripled his numbers among white voters as he did so and he made his second run as much about class as race.

And I think when he talked about bringing people up, the forgotten man, people who have been left behind, you see a lot of parallels between those words and those principles and a lot of things that Trump talked about in 2016 and since, and people from both parties. So, I think he was a man before his time in a lot of ways. And I think there was some connection between the two, the two politicians in that fashion.

PHILLIP: I like to think that Trump showed that actually the things that made Jesse Jackson an unlikely candidate in the '80s actually weren't disqualifying at all. Neither man had served in elected office. Neither man had had the establishment backing when they ran the first time around.

They are very different people, but I think Jesse Jackson was a man before his time. And, you know, it was the '80s and that was a different time for America.

GRETCHEN CARLSON, FORMER FOX NEWS ANCHOR: You know what I loved about your interview with the senator was talking about faith, because that's what I've been thinking about all day, was this combination of faith and politics. As a granddaughter of a preacher myself, I mean, something very important to me and I really feel like that should be something very important that Democrats think about moving forward, because in a way, the faith has been sort of hijacked by the Republican Party.

And you have a president currently who has evangelicals supporting him although many people question his own moral fiber and his own Christianity. So, it might be a strong political move to take the lesson from Jesse Jackson today about that combination of faith and politics and reignite the Democratic Party with that mission.

ASTEAD HERNDON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yeah. I mean, Jesse Jackson was rooted in that church tradition from a Chicago sense. You know, I'm from someone who's from Black Chicago, South Chicago, before there was a Barack Obama politics. There was Jesse Jackson politics. We all grew up in that shadow.

And so, today represents a loss of an icon, I think, not just an organizing icon or a civil rights icon, an icon of public speaking, too. Think back to "I am somebody" or "keep hope alive". He really mastered what Democrats still struggle with which is recognizing the structural injustices in the country, while also giving people inspiration.

I really think Jacksons legacy will be the substance. When we think back to those campaigns. He is modeling a type of universality, a class forward language that Democrats are really still coming around to, things like universal healthcare.

You mentioned in your interview with Warnock, his push about voter registration and expanding the domestic justice issues with international ones, opposing apartheid or (AUDIO GAP) things Democrats are increasingly or the left increasingly coming around to. So, I think when we think about Jackson, its someone who not only represents Black politics, represents an empowering of Black voters, largely I think it's someone who represents a brand of working-class politics that's making a reemergence in Democratic Party.

And so, when they think about the route forward, when Democrats think about kind about kind of who they should be looking back to as models I think just as they include the Obamas and Clintons or Bernie Sanders in that conversation. Jesse Jackson is the origin of that, and he deserves credit for that.

PHILLIP: He is the beginning of the story.

[16:20:00]

And I would urge people, if you haven't listened to, I would urge you to listen to it, the 1988 campaign speech. He talks a lot about the working class and the poor, and I think that is exactly what Astead was just talking about there.

But ahead for us in THE ARENA, the latest he said/she said. CBS is now out with their version of events after one of Stephen Colbert's interviews ended up off the airwaves.

But first, we are following some stunning new developments in the Nancy Guthrie case. The sheriff is now confirming results of DNA testing and much more.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIFF CHRIS NANOS, PIMA COUNTY, AZ: I believe it was a kidnapping.

INTERVIEWER: Targeted kidnapping?

NANOS: Yes. I believe whoever did that knew what they were up to.

INTERVIEWER: So, do you believe --

NANOS: Knew who they were after.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:25:02]

PHILLIP: -- a significant development (AUDIO GAP) sheriff now giving us an update on the DNA testing.

Joining us now is CNN's Ed Lavandera, who has been outside of Nancy Guthrie's home, and also former FBI assistant director, Frank Figliuzzi.

Ed, let me just talk to you first. What are you hearing from the sheriff about this DNA testing results, this highly anticipated? And what are they doing now?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it is disheartening news. If you remember, a few days ago, we learned from the FBI that there had been numerous gloves within a two mile radius or so found around Nancy Guthrie's home and some of those gloves had been sent off for DNA testing because that set matched the gloves that were seen on the suspect at the front door here in that dramatic video that was released last week by investigators.

However, investigators now say that the DNA taken from those gloves is not found in the criminal database for DNA. But more importantly, it also doesn't match the DNA trace and sample that was found here at Nancy Guthrie's home. So, this, at least for the moment, appears to be somewhat of a dead end.

Now, however, they still do have that DNA from inside the home of an unknown person. And investigators here, Abby, say they are continuing to run tests on that, obviously in the hopes that it might lead them to a name for someone that they might want to track down. And also, I should point out, in the last hour or so here investigators have come back to the neighborhood. We've seen some law enforcement activity at a neighbor's house, and also some men coming out of Nancy Guthrie's house. One of them was wearing gloves and carrying a bag.

Local officials say that investigators are back out here in the neighborhood doing follow up work once again.

PHILLIP: That's an interesting development there.

And, Frank, we're hearing from ed, no DNA matches in this FBI, CODIS database. So, what does that really tell us? What does it rule out? And where can they turn from here?

FRANK FIGLIUZZI, FORMER FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: Right, it's not a great surprise. It is a disappointment and I say not a great surprise, because the FBI's DNA database is comprised largely of samples from folks who have been arrested or convicted of certain felonies depending on the state that they were arrested, or convicted.

And there's different rules across the states. Most states, in fact all 50 actually have DNA samples mandated when you're arrested and when you're convicted, excuse me, of certain violent felonies.

So, what does this mean? It's not a -- it's not an old system. It's relatively new. It could mean that the people we're dealing with have no record on file in terms of a certain violent felonies. The other place that samples come from are unsolved, excuse me, unsolved crime scenes.

So again, this person's DNA likely was not found at a previous crime scene. This is going to focus us right back on the clothing. It's going to put us right back on the backpack. The ski mask and tracking down the gun and the holster we saw in those video images.

PHILLIP: And, Ed, yesterday we heard from local authorities because they were ruling out the Guthrie family as potential suspects in response to a lot of rumors that have been out there. What is the sheriff now saying about why they did that?

FIGLIUZZI: Well, he simply just thought that given everything that they've been through over the last 17 days, he described it as cruel, felt like it was the right thing to do, to let everybody know that they have been checked out. Of course, you know, the last people to have seen Nancy Guthrie alive were family members. Nancy Guthrie had spent that Saturday night before she was abducted at a family members house, having dinner, playing cards from what we were told.

And so, obviously, the investigators had to check them out in the sheriff says that they have been nothing but cooperative, that they are the victims in this case, and described what -- what they've been put through the last more than two weeks now with online gossip and smears that they are the victims in this case. And I think he felt it was time to let everybody know that they have been checked out and that they are cleared in this case.

PHILLIP: Yeah, it's been frankly, really disappointing and awful what they've been going through with all of these rumors.

Frank, as they continue to hope for more information in this case, the FBI is reiterating there's already a $100,000 reward for information about Nancy Guthrie's disappearance. Does it signal anything to you that they continue to sort of push that tip line and that reward that has actually increased over the course of this period that we've been looking for her?

[16:30:10]

FIGLIUZZI: Yeah. Today's news were science so far is not helping us. Does put this back on crowdsourcing and crowdsourcing of crime is the way to go. We saw it after the insurrection on January 6th, where average folks got together and helped identify people who breached security at the Capitol. We keep seeing it as a solution.

And, you know back in my early days in the FBI, there was a lot of angst and hand-wringing over when you should share something with the public. And today, it's share, share, share, because the answer is out there.

PHILLIP: Frank Figliuzzi, Ed Lavandera, thank you both very much for that update.

And ahead in THE ARENA, what Hillary Clinton says is not complicated to understand when it comes to the Epstein files.

But, first, the new drama for late night TV. The first statement just coming in from CBS after Stephen Colbert accused the network of giving in to threats from the man President Trump has put in charge of the FCC.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHEN COLBERT, LATE NIGHT TV HOST: Do you mean to cause trouble?

STATE REP. JAMES TALARICO (D), TEXAS SENATE CANDIDATE: I -- I think that Donald Trump is worried that we're about to flip Texas.

(CHEERING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:35:43]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TALARICO: This is the party that ran against cancel culture and now they're trying to control what we watch, what we say, what we read. And this is the most dangerous kind of cancel culture, the kind that comes from the top. And I feel like we're building something really special in Texas. And clearly, Donald Trump has taken note.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: That was Texas state representative and Democratic Senate candidate James Talarico on the late show with Stephen Colbert last night except that that interview did not actually air on television. Why? Well, Colbert claims that CBS lawyers were concerned that it would have violated FCC provision known as the Equal Time Rule. That rule that talk shows have previously been exempt from. But last month, FCC Chair Brendan Carr threatened stations that he might change.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLBERT: You know who is not one of my guests tonight? That's Texas State Representative James Talarico. He was supposed to be here, but we were told in no uncertain terms by our network's lawyers who called us directly that we could not have him on the broadcast.

(BOOS)

COLBERT: Then -- then I was told in some uncertain terms that not only could I not have him on I could not mention me not having him on.

And because my network clearly doesn't want us to talk about this, let's talk about this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: So, you may have noticed that the photo in that clip was obviously not Talarico. And that's because Colbert says he wasn't even allowed to use a real photo of him. A CBS spokesperson provided a statement to CNN saying that the show was not prohibited by CBS from broadcasting the interview, but that quote, the show was provided legal guidance that the broadcast could trigger the FCC equal time rule for two other candidates, including Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett. "The Late Show" decided to present the interview through its YouTube channel with on air promotion on the broadcast, rather than potentially providing the equal time options.

Our panel is back.

I don't know, Bill, it seems like maybe CBS is responding to a very real threat and change made by the FCC and trying to get ahead of it.

STEPIEN: I mean, the show is losing $40 million a year. So, I think this is a business decision my question is who made that decision? Was it CBS? Was it Stephen Colbert who clearly has a preferred candidate in this race?

Did CBS not think the two other candidates were interesting enough? Did Colbert not want to support the other candidates?

This is clearly -- look, early voting starts in Texas today. Last night was supposed to be a GOTV rally, because Texans know the only way they can flip this seat in the fall is with James Talarico. He is a preferred candidate in the race. He was trying to support him. He wasn't allowed to.

CARLSON: Yeah, but just the opposite happened, actually. I mean, now if I'm Jasmine Crockett or for that matter, if I'm any of the Republicans on the other side, I'm the one that should be serving as the FCC wanting to actually not have Talarico on because he has gone up in Google searches today beyond belief. If you look at the numbers for YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, were up to almost 10 million views or more of this interview.

Stephen Colbert averages 2.3 million per night. So that's like having Talarico on five nights in a row, as far as publicity.

So, this -- this is huge for Talarico, and I wouldn't be surprised if this affects the race in some shape.

STEPIEN: And isn't that the point though, right? He's trying to affect the race on the eve of early voting, having this guy on. Come on.

PHILLIP: I think the thing that's -- about what you're saying is that it seems like if Republicans were really concerned about Talarico, this would be the opposite of what they would do. They're elevating him. And if he's -- if they think that he is a tougher candidate, they just made it easier for him to be the Democratic nominee. I don't know, it just -- it seems like counter to what they're trying to do.

SIMMONS: It didn't make it easier. His fight with Jasmine Crockett is a tough fight, she's a tough candidate but a lot of Democrats in that state want to see Talarico come out of that primary, because they think he's the best chance. And it looks like if it's him against the machine, they're always going to pick the person who's tilting against the power structure.

And that's I think Stephen Colbert now understands that. He also is on the side of the people.

[16:40:01]

And as he's thinking about what he's doing next, I'm sure he's thinking about staying on the side of the mass market audience in this country which is trending very far against Donald Trump and toward some of these other candidates.

HERNDON: Yeah, I think it was interesting because I think the question is a fair one. Like, is this self-censorship on behalf of Stephen Colbert on the show, or is this a kind of legitimate fear based off of real words that FCC chair has said?

But I think to Jamal's point, this is a primary that's gotten wrapped up in kind of style tone differences or theory to how to win the general election, because there's not much policy differences between the two candidates. But it has become kind of visceral because I think of the closeness between where they are.

But it feels to me as if you know, to your point, Talarico got an in- kind donation from this, from this. And in my sense, it seems to me as if a kind of a group of people have been kind of pushing him in this race. But I interviewed Jasmine Crockett a couple of weeks ago. This is kind of baked into her strategy.

They're both kind of pitching themselves as the victim in this race, as the person against the machine who they're scared for you to vote for in the general election. So while Crockett uses kind of anti-Trump language, kind of identity language to make herself - give herself that case, I think Talarico was helped today by Stephen Colbert making him the anti-Trump villain, too.

PHILLIP: Let's play what Jasmine Crockett said on CNN just yesterday about the expectations game of this race.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JASMINE CROCKETT (D-TX): Now they want to say that I can't win, but the reality is that the numbers don't suggest that. And no one is putting numbers behind this. All they're doing is sinking a lot of money into a candidate who has never been tested and never been hit.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: And look, what she's saying is not off base. When you look at the polling, she -- this is the latest polling from University of Houston. She is pretty far ahead of Talarico. Now, there's still time, right? Early voting is starting.

But if she's in fact ahead, what's with all the talk that he's the stronger candidate when he's not proving to actually be the stronger candidate?

SIMMONS: A lot of people are worried that she wouldn't be able to sell in a general election in Texas.

I think what Congresswoman Crockett would say is that she's got -- she can do a lot of turnout with people of color in the state particularly with women of color. And she's got a card to play with more rural voters. She actually has spent a lot of time in some of the rural parts of her district.

She's arguing farmers like her. So we will see if that's true if she comes out of this primary.

CARLSON: But I think also that there's a lot of Democrats especially in Texas, who would maybe want to have Talarico instead, because he does bill himself as more of a moderate, and they feel that they might have better success in beating Cornyn or a Paxton or Wesley Hunt if that's the case.

PHILLIP: When it comes to the FCC, though, this idea that Brendan Carr is going to make these equal time rules typically don't apply to late night shows, applied to them. What about talk radio? Are they going to do that for conservative radio? Is this going to be equally applied? Should it be?

HERNDON: I mean, that's a good question. I think that we've seen the Trump administration willing to use each lever of the federal government to affect culture, affect media affect politics. I mean, he's shown that willingness.

I mean, conservative talk radio has been dominated by -- I mean, talk radio, has been dominated by conservatives for a long time. And when we talk to people across the country about where they get their news, that's oftentimes where you get it. On the Republican side of the ledger.

I think that a lot of this Talarico boosting, you know, maybe not necessarily lands with the people of Texas, right? Like this could be a machine kind of surrounding him.

But I really just have to say, I think that some people feel as if to bust the elephant in the room with Crockett, that some Democratic candidates, particularly Black ones have used race and gender to insulate themselves from criticism. And folks feel like its a cynical version of identity politics that doesn't often serve the party well.

When I talk to people about their visceral anti-Crockett-ness. It usually comes from that place that they feel like she represents a version of politics that drives some people towards the Republican Party. I put those questions to her --

PHILLIP: Just --

HERNDON: -- she's really -- she really kind of pooh-poohs them, but I think that's where the anger comes from.

PHILLIP: Well, to your point, just today, she said that Talarico has to answer for the super PAC ads that she characterized as racist against her. So, race is a huge part of this primary already, and that's been definitely rubbing some Democrats the wrong way.

Ahead in THE ARENA, what issue is Hillary Clinton talking about when she says this? (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: Why do they want to pull us into this, to divert attention from President Trump? This is not complicated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:48:55]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: A law was passed in Congress to require that all the files that have anything to do with them be released, and what we're seeing, I think its fair to say, is a continuing coverup by the Trump administration.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton there not mincing words. She is accusing the Trump administration of a, quote, cover up for how it's handled the release of the Jeffrey Epstein files. Clinton criticized the Justice Department for stonewalling requests from members of Congress, slow walking the release of the documents, and redacting the names of powerful men.

Her comments are coming after she and her husband, former President Bill Clinton, are set to appear in a closed door deposition in front of the House Oversight Committee later this month a request that the pair reluctantly agreed to after they were threatened with contempt proceedings.

My panel is back.

Gretchen, does she have a point? Is this a distraction?

CARLSON: Maybe. But the first point I'd like to make is that they should make the Clinton hearings public.

[16:50:00]

They should not do this behind closed doors.

PHILLIP: Yeah.

CARLSON: Everyone wants to hear what they're going to say. And I think, you know depending on what they say, it could actually put more pressure on Trump to not continue to cover this up.

So, I think it's really important that the American public hears what the Clintons have to say.

The other thing I would just mention is that the KFILE's investigative team here at CNN, you know, found out that Bill and Hillary did actually have a relationship with Ghislaine Maxwell in 2013 when they invited her to the Clinton Global Initiative event. Now, you know, Hillary says that she never met Jeffrey Epstein, but it was either the president or Hillary that would have to have had Ghislaine Maxwell in that heightened position at their global initiative.

So, there will be questions, no doubt, about that relationship. But other than that, I'm really -- I'm really kind of befuddled as to why Hillary Clinton is being called to testify at all.

PHILLIP: I think that's the point she's making, right? Which is like, why is -- why are we the only ones testifying? Not everybody else?

HERNDON: I think she made the point about publicness. I think that that would be welcomed by most people. I mean, the desire from a public opinion standpoint, from elected officials standpoint is transparency to her point, and I think that having them testify in public would be a step toward that.

But I do think it's fair to say that Donald Trump hasn't shown a willingness to at least meet the transparency bars laid out in law, or I think to the public since been proactive in terms of being willing to share information on that front. And so, I think the Clintons are kind of trying to dare him to say, okay, if we're mucked up in this, it can't be more so than you.

And so, I think that's the kind of political pressure they're trying to put on him. But to answer the question, the privacy of the hearings allows Republicans to continue to spin the narrative around the Clintons and I think keep Trump out of that focus. If I could guess, that's why it's happening behind closed doors.

PHILLIP: Well, let me play what Trump said in response to Hillary Clinton basically saying that this is a cover for him. Listen.

(BEGIN VDIEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Hillary Clinton said in an interview today that she and her husband are getting pulled into the Epstein matter to divert attention from you and that your administration has something to hide. What's your response?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have nothing to hide. I've been exonerated. I have nothing to do with Jeffrey Epstein. They went in hoping that they'd find and found just the opposite I've been totally exonerated.

They're getting pulled in, and that's their problem. I don't know, they're going to have to see what happens. But I watched her in Munich and she seriously has Trump derangement syndrome.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Not for nothing, but he has kinder words for Bill Clinton than he does for Hillary Clinton for perhaps obvious reasons but yeah, I mean, he seems to say, oh, I have nothing to do with this. I don't have to testify. I'm not sure we've seen any evidence that Hillary Clinton has anything

to do with this either.

STEPIEN: I do think we have to clarify the closed door deposition would be videotaped, transcribed and made available to the public. Comer has -- Congressman Comer has made -- he said you could do both. We'll do the closed door deposition first. Most accurate way to extract information from a witness. And then you could also come before my oversight committee in the public forum you want. So I think that's an important distinction.

But look, no one has done -- no one has done crisis management like the Clintons over the last 40 years -- Whitewater, Foster, Lewinsky, Flowers, on an impeachment. I mean they're so good at it that they won seats during and after impeachment.

Attack the process, which she's doing. Go after the big kid on the playground, Donald Trump. They are really, really good at this. And they've evaded potholes for 40 years.

PHILLIP: Let me -- can I play one more thing from Hillary Clinton? This is about the photos of her husband in the Epstein files.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

INTERVIEWER: Images of your husband, apparently in a hot tub, in a swimming pool, on Epstein's plane. What was your reaction to that? And do you know the context surrounding some of those images?

CLINTON: Absolutely. And it wasn't a hot tub on a plane. It was one of the stops they made to look at philanthropic and charitable work that my husband has done, saving literally millions of lives around the world. It turned out that was done long before there was any public awareness, and certainly any conviction of any crime by Jeffrey Epstein.

If Bill and I had a penny for every person we've taken pictures with, we would be extremely rich today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PHILLIP: Now, Jamal, I'm not so sure that answer is quite going to cut it because, I mean look, I have questions about that photo and the idea that it was on a philanthropic trip. So, it's all good and fine. I'm not sure that's going to cut it.

SIMMONS: Look, the idea about Bill Clinton having to answer questions is something I think most Democrats, most Americans, would agree. He's in photos. Donald Trump is in photos. He should have to answer questions as well. So, everybody should do that.

I think having Hillary Clinton in this hearing is something that really plays the political card for the Republicans. They're making a big mistake because they're leaving themselves wide open to this political argument. And what you're seeing from Hillary Clinton is classic Clinton

strategy, which is to go back and attack the process, to go back and play offense because now we're also talking about Donald Trump having to answer questions today, which would not have been the case if Hillary hadn't said that.

PHILLIP: Yeah. I mean, everybody's got to answer for their -- their photos, their emails, all of that stuff.

[16:55:02]

We want it all.

All right, everybody. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PHILLIP: And a big thanks to my panel here. You can now stream THE ARENA live or catch up wherever you want, whenever you want on the CNN app. Just scan that QR code below.

You can also catch up by listening to THE ARENA's podcast and follow the show on Instagram, and @TheArenaCNN.

Jake Tapper is here. He's standing by for "THE LEAD".

Jake, hi. Great to see you.