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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt
Trump Launches New Attacks On Potential 2028 Democratic Candidates Ahead Of Governors' Meeting In D.C.; FCC Chair Dismisses Colbert Uproar As "Hoax"; Source: Authorities On Both Sides Of U.S. Southern Border On Lookout For Clues As Nancy Guthrie Search Continues; Mark Zuckerberg Testifies In Landmark Social Media Trial. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired February 18, 2026 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[16:00:00]
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: So why would you hire somebody for --
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: That's like, a lot of boneless wings you could be eating, right?
SANCHEZ: Popcorn chicken is not real popcorn. I'm going to sue McDonald's. It's such a silly lawsuit.
I wish we had props here, though
KEILAR: We wish we had some wings.
SANCHEZ: Do you like how I said au cont --
KEILAR: Au contraire.
KEILAR: THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT starts right now.
(MUSIC)
KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Hi, everyone. Welcome to THE ARENA. I'm Kasie Hunt. It's good to have you with us on this Wednesday.
Right now, President Donald Trump finding new ways, if you can believe it, to attack prominent Democrats, especially ones who might decide to run to succeed him in the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Look, Gavin has destroyed California. And AOC, I never really got her to -- I never heard her speak very much. And they started answering a question. She had no idea what was happening. She had no idea how to answer, you know, very important questions concerning the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Several other potential 2028 contenders heading to or already are here in Washington this week. It's for the traditional meeting of the nation's governors.
But at least one Democrat will not be at a dinner that's hosted by the White House. This is a traditional, long dinner. That is Maryland Governor Wes Moore. President Trump has attacked Governor Moore on a wide variety of issues, immigration and crime.
The latest issue is sewage. Yes, you heard that right. After a massive pipe ruptured and began spilling hundreds of millions of gallons of raw sewage into the Potomac River, the White House was quick to blame Moore and other Democratic leaders.
The president posting this, quote, the two governors and the mayor of D.C. must act immediately. This is a radical left caused environmental hazard.
Let's get off the sidelines and head into THE ARENA. I spoke just an hour or so ago with Democratic Governor Wes Moore of Maryland.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HUNT: Governor, thank you so much for joining us today.
You and President Trump, the White House having conflict on multiple fronts shall we say, both big picture and also on specifics. And we actually just heard from the White House press secretary, Karoline Leavitt, who was asked about the sewage crisis, that the Potomac River here in our local jurisdiction is facing. Now this is just one of many things they've taken you on about.
But I do want to show you what she had to say. We'll talk about it on this side. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The next step in this process is for any of the three local jurisdictions involved, whether that's the commonwealth of Virginia, the state of Maryland, and Governor Moore, or the District of Columbia to step forward and to ask the federal government for help and to ask for the Stafford Act to be implemented here so that the federal government can go and take control of this local infrastructure that has been abandoned and neglected by governor Moore in Maryland for far too long.
There has been no improvement under the leadership of Governor Moore. He's clearly shown he's incapable of fixing this problem, which is why President Trump and the federal government are standing by to step in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Governor, what's your response?
GOV. WES MOORE (D), MARYLAND: I mean, what she says is laughable, and it continues to remind me of that -- that this is not a serious team that we're working with. We're talking about a D.C. pipe on federal land, right? The area that we're talking about, that has been under federal control for the past century. And so, any indication or any insinuation that somehow this is a Maryland issue or Virginia issue is ridiculous.
This is a D.C. pipe on federal land. The only difference is the reason that I ordered our team to be able to support Washington, D.C. in their effort on the cleanup was one I did not want contagion that would impact the people of Maryland. And second, I believe in actually helping our neighbors.
And when our neighbors needed help, I told I instructed our team to assist them and help them and this is -- in January, we started this process that for now, the past week, there is no overflow that is taking place from that jurisdiction. And now, now, the White House wants to get involved even though I was doing we were doing their job for the past month?
And so if the president wants me to ask nicely -- here's my nice ask of the president. Mr. President, please do your job.
HUNT: Fair enough.
So, speaking of the president, he, of course, invites or traditionally the White House invites governors here for the National Governors Association, which is part of why you're here this week to the White House for dinner. An invitation was not extended to you. Although I understand there's been a little bit of lack of clarity on whether that's actually the case.
But now, other Democratic governors are also saying that they might not attend. Governor Beshear, one of them, if you're not extended an invitation.
Would you like to see all of your Democratic governors join you in refusing to attend the dinner if you're not invited?
MOORE: Well, I'm not casting judgment on any governor that chooses to attend for any governor that chooses to attend, if any governor to choose to attend the dinner, that is their prerogative.
[16:05:07]
I will not, and I also know it's because the president of the United States does not get to -- get to determine what my worthiness is. The reason I'm a member of the National Governors Association is because the people of Maryland elected me with a historic margin of victory. An historic number of individual votes to make me the governor of Maryland, not the president.
The reason I'm the vice chair of the National Governors Association is because both Democratic and Republican governors voted for me to help lead the organization, not the president. And so, I will not cast judgment on anyone else's decision. But my decision is very clear. If this is not going to be a serious gathering where we can talk about issues where we can address the fact that everything is more expensive under the president, if we can address the fact that why he is spending his time giving tax cuts to his friends while making life more expensive on everyone else, if that's not the intent, then I have no desire of actually sitting down. HUNT: Do you think his lack of extension of an invitation to you --
is the president motivated by race?
MOORE: You know, honestly, I think that's a real question for President Trump you know, what I know is, and what I've shown is I will work with anybody. Just a couple weeks ago, I led a delegation of Democratic and Republican governors. We all went to the White House, and we were urging PJM, our regional grid operator, to be able to cap their prices for two years. And they have come back and didn't cap it for two years they kept it for the rest of the decade and so we have shown an ability and a very clear instinct to be able to work across the line in the state of Maryland.
Ninety-seven percent of the bills that I've introduced have gone past have been passed bipartisan. So I work with Democrats --
HUNT: What's it about for president if it's not about race?
MOORE: I think the president just seems to have a very real issue with the fact that I do not bow to him and I will stand up to him because I will always defend my people. But you know, the fact that I'm the only black governor in this country and the fact that he seems to have a real issue with me, I think that's an issue he's got to take up.
HUNT: Do you think the president is a racist? He did post an A.I. image of Barack and Michelle Obama, former President Obama, as an ape.
MOORE: Well, I mean, he also has spent the past year making a direct assault on scholarships for HBCUs that the past year we have seen the greatest assault on employment for black women, that our country has ever seen, that he's spending his time attacking history and banning books. I -- you know, I honestly think that you know, it's a question not just for the president, but frankly, I think it's also a question for white America if they are looking at his actions. And think that's something that people need to wrestle with
HUNT: You, of course, are someone who is stepping out onto a national stage. Your potential presidential ambitions are not a secret, right?
MOORE: Oh, well, they're a secret to me because --
HUNT: Really?
MOORE: Oh yes, they are. I am -- I am very committed.
HUNT: You have no idea whether or not you might run for president or not?
MOORE: No, I'm not running for president. I'm not, because I'm -- I love what I'm doing. And remember, you know, four years ago, I'd never held elected office in my life. I don't come from a political background. I'm not -- I'm not one of these people who's been spending 20 years, you know, going from job --
HUNT: You are speaking in the present tense. I mean, George Clooney would love to see you be president in the future, I've heard.
I want to put up and I think part of -- part of why this conversation is what it is, having seen you do some of this. And of course, this is biased. I'm a big Orioles fan but this is this was you as Mr. Splash at Camden Yards, okay? And I was there the day that you did this. Okay?
Now, this is not -- I mean, part of why people talk about you and your aspirations is that this is not a typical political -- you know, outing right there it sort of demonstrates an ability to operate in a specific type of setting that not all of your peers can claim.
Do you -- do you think that you have what it takes to be president?
MOORE: I think the reason that the people of Maryland, the reason that we are doing well and people are happy with our job and our performance, is because they know that were real and they know that were authentic. I did not -- I did not get in this because I was looking for a title or a position.
I got in this because I know the issues that I wanted to work on and we've been laser-focused on actually doing it and trying to make life more affordable for our state and trying to create job opportunities and having amongst the -- having amongst the fastest drops in violent crime anywhere in the United States of America is taking place right now in the state of Maryland.
So, I think people know I am who I am and I do what I say, and I think that -- that resonates with people.
HUNT: You say you are who you are. A conservative outlet, "The Free Beacon" recently wrote about a story you often tell about your great grandfather and your family and how and why they left the United States.
[16:10:09]
And they say that the story is they report, they look at church records. They say the story is not true, that the Ku Klux Klan did not force your family to leave, that your family left voluntarily. Now, you of course, have said and your spokesperson said anyone who wants to question whether terror and intimidation were pervasive in that era should open a history book or reach out to the KKK and ask what they were up to in South Carolina in the 1920s. Fair enough.
I think my question to you is, is there any truth to what "The Free Beacon" has written here?
MOORE: There is no truth to what a right-wing blog writes about me. No, there is not, because I know my family's history. I know my family's history is.
You know, my grandfather is James Joshua Thomas, a man who was born in South Carolina and my family when he was just a toddler, that he was run out by the Ku Klux Klan, that he still returned to this country. He became the first black minister in the history of the Dutch Reformed Church. He died while I was in Afghanistan fighting for this country, and he had a deep Jamaican accent his entire life. And he's maybe the most patriotic American I've ever met.
And I lived through him. He lives through me, his commitment to this country. And when the threats that came to his father when people started making intimidating threats to him, when he became the first Black minister in the history of the Dutch Reformed Church, he's stuck and he kept his chest out and he continued to love the Lord and love his family and love his community. That's how I'm built.
And so, if anyone wants to question my family's history or question the history of the Ku Klux Klan, they should really ask the Ku Klux Klan, because they're the ones who should have the answers.
HUNT: And those church records that show that one of your family members left voluntarily to take over for someone who had passed away, those records are wrong?
MOORE: They should really ask the Ku Klux Klan about what their activities were in the 1920s.
HUNT: All right. Well, Governor Wes Moore, thank you very much for your time, sir. I really appreciate it.
MOORE: Thank you.
HUNT: Lovely to see you, hope to see you at the yard this summer.
MOORE: You know, watch Pete Alonso.
HUNT: I have a question I didn't ask you. Exactly, Pete Alonso, can we talk about, like, the new owners of the team for a second?
MOORE: Yes.
HUNT: Because hello? Go, Birds!
MOORE: Go, Birds! It's a -- it's a huge pickup now. We still need pitching. We still got to get some pitching.
HUNT: Yeah.
MOORE: But getting one of the best bats in baseball. Joining the lineup, adding to already our ridiculous offensive onslaught is --
HUNT: Can you call David Rubenstein about that please?
MOORE: I'll see what I can do.
HUNT: I may be crossing the line here as a reporter, but I don't cover sports.
MOORE: Nah, it's all good, you know, you need to make sure we cover a World Series pretty soon.
HUNT: We need a ring. MOORE: We need a ring.
HUNT: Here in Baltimore.
All right. Thank you, sir. Really appreciate it.
MOORE: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HUNT: All right. My thanks to Wes Moore.
And let's go, O's!
Coming up next here in THE ARENA, the face of Facebook takes the stand in Los Angeles. What Mark Zuckerberg is saying under oath in a landmark trial on social media addiction.
But first, the Trump administration responding today to accusations of censorship after one of Stephen Colbert's interviews ended up not on TV.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRENDAN CARR, FCC CHAIR: This was about James Talarico looking to get a sort of a click and a view, and maybe a vote and a money boost over his two opponents in the Democratic primary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:18:10]
HUNT: FCC Chair Brendan Carr denying any involvement in the latest late night drama. We're, of course talking about Stephen Colbert's interview with Democratic Senate candidate James Talarico. In an interview that did not air on broadcast television. And today, we are learning a little bit more about why.
Our Brian Stelter reports a recent FCC inquiry into a possible equal time violation by ABC's "The View", raised concerns inside CBS that they could be targeted next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN COLBERT, "THE LATE SHOW" HOST: Carr, you see, he issued a letter saying he was thinking about getting rid of that talk show exception. He had not gotten rid of it yet, but CBS generously did it for him and told me -- no, told me unilaterally that I had to abide by the equal time rules, something I have never been asked to do for an interview in the 21 years of this job.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: Talarico benefiting from all of the attention. In the 24 hours since Colbert announced the interview would not air on TV, Talarico says his campaign raised $2.5 million. The interview currently has 6 million views on YouTube that is well above -- you do the math -- Colbert's average TV audience of 2.3 million people.
My panel is here in THE ARENA. CNN legal analyst Elliot Williams; host of "The Chuck Toddcast", Chuck Todd; CNN political commentator Xochitl Hinojosa, and former Republican congressman from Louisiana, Garret Graves.
Welcome to all of you.
Congressman, thank you very much for bringing your first tour to THE ARENA. We appreciate having you.
Chuck, I want to start big picture, though with you as someone who's sat in a broadcast chair seat, you're well acquainted with what this is, especially because you were also, you know, political director.
[16:20:00]
This, for James Talarico, ended up being an enormous gift from a political perspective. What do you think it says about where we are that it's played out this way?
CHUCK TODD, HOST OF "CHUCK TODDCAST": Well, first of all, I mean, you know, legacy television was in trouble before, and, oh my God, here's more proof it is. I mean, think about it, before there's YouTube, let's say this ad doesn't air and it was all about trying to get people focused on the first day of early voting and get all. And then this doesn't happen. And it's a blow to your rollout strategy.
HUNT: Are you saying you'd rather be a YouTube star today than a TV star?
TODD: It turned out in this case, YouTube killed the video star, right? Thank you very much.
(LAUGHTER)
TODD: You know, thank you very much.
HUNT: Thank you for that.
TODD: You had to walk into it, right but in this case it -- look, it -- it's worked out so well for Talarico, you almost wonder if it was planned. Like, if you're Jasmine Crockett, this whole thing has been really a kick in the teeth, because all the momentum was with her. In fact, another poll came out showing her ahead in the primary and just as competitive in the general.
And he was still kind of reeling. He had sort of stepped in it with this comment he made about Colin Allred. And he was -- you know, you could feel the superstar stuff was starting to fade a little bit. This has been a huge moment for him.
So, if he ends up winning this primary, this is a transformational moment. But we're not getting the full story here. I'm a little surprised Colbert said he's never dealt with an equal time issue because the entertainment shows and late night talk shows on the entertainment side, I had to deal with this when there was an "SNL" walk on by a candidate and then a candidate asked for equal time, and they got equal time only in what the --in for the next state that was voting. And I think it had to -- I think it was NBC South Carolina affiliates at the time.
HUNT: Bottom line is you were way down in the weeds, but it was something that was --
TODD: The point is --
HUNT: -- to be expected.
TODD: And if you're Colbert, your only equal time issue would have been with CBS Texas affiliates. So, somebody is not telling us the full story. CBS lawyers, Colbert, I feel as if there's a -- either they're not communicating or whatever. But by the way, this is usually candidate triggered.
HUNT: And Jasmine Crockett would have had to call --
TODD: Or there's a third candidate on the ballot. Or usually, it's that candidate, usually the candidate you'd never heard of that's begging for equal time and extra airtime.
HUNT: Congressman Graves, how do you feel about the way that this FCC was proposing? And Colbert kind of laid it out there, right. There has been something of an exemption in the past for talk shows in what Chuck is talking about here. That's been changing, and there have been critics who have looked at what CBS was doing, and this has happened in other places in American life in the first year of the Trump term and said people are obeying in advance because they are afraid of what is going to happen to them.
Are you comfortable with the way the Trump administration has been handling things like this?
GARRETT GRAVES (R), FORMER LOUISIANA CONGRESSMAN: Well, look, I think you got to back up a little bit. You have a number of late night talk shows, and I think it's fair to say, all of them have a bit of a liberal bent to them. And so, if you're the public and you're looking at this public asset of spectrum and TV stations out there broadcasting, I would be concerned that you're only getting or you're getting a biased in the -- in the -- in the shows that are coming out.
HUNT: Donald Trump is one of the most frequent late night guests and broadcast cable TV guests, when he was running for president.
GRAVES: But, Kasie, it's fair to say that they do have a liberal bent.
The second, I think, takeaway here is that is that when you dig into the weeds, this was a manufactured crisis. Chuck is exactly right. This is a manufactured crisis by Colbert, by CBS and others. And the third thing is, is that I think the real takeaway here is if
you're Colbert, you need to move to YouTube. I mean, you get double or triple viewership -- they got bigger viewership than the actual broadcast would have gotten.
XOCHITL HINOJOSA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: But there's also a distrust right now for CBS, and we have seen what is happening overall at CBS. And so, I think this stems from a larger problem with the direction that CBS is going.
Now, full disclosure, my sister is running for governor of Texas. But in Talarico's case, I think that what's important here is that regardless if you are in the Jasmine Crockett camp and they might not be happy right now, and Talarico camp. Democrats in Texas are thrilled to be having this conversation. For the first time, and, I don't know, for decades, we are talking about a Texas Senate race.
HUNT: I don't know how to talk about it quite frequently the last several cycles I've covered.
HINOJOSA: I tried to -- I am a Dallas Cowboy fan and a Texas Democrat. Both have broken my heart throughout decades. But what I will say is, for the first time, there's actually momentum around Texas, not only because what happened in Tarrant County, but also we're seeing different trends across the state and now Texas is getting played because also the crazy Republican presidential --
HUNT: Republican nominee, Ken Paxton.
HINOJOSA: And that's why this is overall a good --
TODD: By the way, for one interesting trend right now, the two candidates leading in the primary polls are the ones that are being outspent. Power of money has been an interesting -- not a non-factor, but it's not been the decisive factor.
[16:25:04]
HUNT: We should ask Jeb Bush what $100 million will or won't do for you in terms of getting you elected president.
TODD: Wow. I didn't think Jeb thought -- saw that one coming.
HUNT: I'm sorry. Well, I've said it before.
TODD: I may hear from Jeb on that one. I had no idea.
HUNT: Also, it was the super PAC, not him, himself.
Elliot Williams, I want to play what Jasmine Crockett said on Tuesday in response to this. And I think you can probably see some of the things that Xochitl touched on here. Let's watch what Crockett said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JASMINE CROCKETT (D-TX): I have done Colbert a number of times. If you paid attention, I've done Colbert a number of times. I've done "The View" a number of times, I've done Kimmel a number of times. I've done all these shows a number of times.
We did receive information suggesting that the federal government did not shut down this segment, number one. Let me be clear. I don't have any love for the current FCC. I don't want anybody to believe that I do. I do not have any love for them. I do think that there are additional layers at play here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: I mean, Elliot, pretty noteworthy since, I mean, this has really -- this has exploded, let's be real, because of the way that the Democratic base across the country has responded to the idea that the Trump administration is shutting down a Democrat she is trying to underscore here that, well, in this case, that's actually not what it was about, because she, of course, wants to be the Democratic nominee in Texas Senate.
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Right. It's not clear -- and this is some of the points that were being made. It's not -- and we're not entirely hearing the full story from either side here. It's because of how fuzzy and cryptic a lot of these standards are.
And to Garrett's point a moment ago yes, let's be clear. We can make the point that late night talk show does have a left leaning bent. Well, daytime talk radio has a right leaning bent, but noticeably, the administration has not chosen to go after it because these are entirely judgment calls made by the FCC, and to some extent by the White House over what they wish to start wading into.
And Jasmine Crockett was getting into that a little bit. It's really just sort of YOLO, we'll just make this up as we go. And if we want to go after folks that we don't agree with, we can. I mean, I think where we're all in agreement here is just a reminder that, number one, this was a law written in 1934 that does not apply to a modern world, and that I'm dead serious.
TODD: The single most important thing, it was 1934. We didn't have television.
WILLIAMS: And this is the point.
HUNT: It was -- it was a law was written for radio.
WILLIAMS: It was a -- it was a law that was written for radio, where there were only a few.
HUNT: And it is still relevant if you're an emergency responder, like there are reasons why like the spectrum in the radio, spectrum in particular are some esoteric thing we should be talking about. But your point is that it might not be right now.
WILLIAMS: It's not -- it's not right now. And we are trying to craft a modern world under these laws that were written literally 80 years ago that just do not make sense anymore. And yes, there's some fishy dealing by the FCC and the White House here, but the law just doesn't fit the world we live in. And that's --
HUNT: Xochitl, briefly, and thank you for the disclosure about your sister. But one of the things about that means you're paying particularly close attention to the race itself. And the recent polling has Crockett in the Democratic primary at 47 percent, Talarico at 39 percent.
She actually sat here on this set a couple of weeks ago, and she said she was only going to get into the race if the polling showed that she could win. And then when she got into the race, she said, well, the polling shows that I could win and she has been in this position. It seems like she's frustrated.
HINOJOSA: Well, that's also what she told me when I spoke with her. She felt confident and with the winds, I think in Virginia and New Jersey and the general landscape for Democrats, plus her polling, that she felt confident that if she was going to get in the race, she could not only win the primary but she could win the general election. But I think that is -- she is frustrated in this because yesterday was the start of early vote. There were huge numbers in the large cities, and I have to imagine that only benefits Crockett at the end of the day, especially a more diverse electorate.
Now we will see what happens now with this, with what happened with CBS, the attention Talarico is getting. But March 3rd, I think, is going to be a big day for both Republicans and Democrats, because that is going to make or break what happens to Texas in the future.
HUNT: It's coming up fast.
All right. Coming up next here in THE ARENA, what we know about a new ransom note received today in the Nancy Guthrie case.
Plus, new details. It's one of the biggest names in tech, takes the stand in a landmark trial. How Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg is responding to accusations that social media is addictive and harmful for our kids.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JULIANNA ARNOLD, MOTHER OF COCO KONAR: He knew perfectly well what was going on. The intention of the company was to prey on teens, use teens usage, exploit them so they can make greater profits. And that was done intentionally, not by accident.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:34:15]
HUNT: As the search for Nancy Guthrie stretches into its 18th day, sources telling CNN investigators have briefed Border Patrol agents and Mexican law enforcement authorities to be on the lookout for any clues that might assist in the disappearance of Nancy. TMZ also reporting they've received a new ransom demand and have forwarded it to the FBI.
I want to bring in CNN's Ed Lavandera. He's outside Nancy Guthrie's home.
We're also joined by CNN chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst, John Miller, and former FBI profiler, host of the "Killer Psyche" podcast, Candice DeLong.
Ed, what more are we hearing about this new reporting about border patrol agents and Mexican law enforcement and the fact that they've been briefed on her disappearance
ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know this has been one of those issues that has lingered over this case.
[16:35:02]
And now that we're more than two weeks into the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, it's, you know, remains a possible focal point here.
And our reporting from our colleague Josh Campbell says that U.S. officials, as you mentioned, have, reached out to U.S. Border Patrol and Mexican border officials there and telling them about the Nancy Guthrie case.
But it's also important to point out, we've also been reaching out over the last few days to local and state government officials on the Mexican side of the border. And so far, we keep hearing that there has been no request for cooperation in this investigation.
So, you know, there could be multiple levels and layers of investigators and various agencies communicating but everyone fully aware of this situation, obviously, this has come and is getting a lot of attention because Tucson's close proximity to Nogales and the Mexican border about 70 miles away or so and given that were more than two weeks into this -- into this drama and this horrific situation it's -- you know, there's just such a lack of answers that people are looking for any kind of explanation as to how Nancy Guthrie could have simply just been abducted from her home, and no signs or traces of her for more than two weeks
HUNT: All right. Ed Lavandera, thank you very much for that reporting.
So, John Miller, TMZ is reporting this, quote, "Sources say the FBI believes its possible Nancy was taken across the border, but it's unlikely it happened directly after the kidnapping".
How do you read this reporting?
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, the FBI has always believed it was possible she could have been taken across the border and that's something that weighs two different ways. Number one, once you cross that border, you are going to get your license plate scanned by the license plate readers. The time and date of your departure, a photograph of your vehicle going by. You're actually adding scrutiny in some measure and creating records, and you run the risk of being stopped. That's if you go through a border crossing.
If you go through trying to cross the border at one of the illegal crossings, you're increasing the risk because with border incursions down about 90 percent, there's a lot of Border Patrol people out there, and they're making stops when they see any activity because there's less activity. All that said we've got to remember scrutiny of people going outbound from America is far less than the scrutiny of people coming across the other way.
So, a kidnapper could have taken a calculated risk that there will be fewer people searching for him. And Nancy Guthrie on the other side of that border. But it's something that they've been weighing from the beginning.
Remember the first search team that joined the sheriff's office was Customs and Border Protections, you know, elite search teams that came up from the border to help them with the initial search. So, they've been read into this from the beginning
HUNT: Really interesting. Candice, I want to play something that Pima County sheriff said about this abduction. Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
INTERVIEWER: You believe it's a kidnapping.
SHERIFF CHRIS NANOS, PIMA COUNTY, AZ: I believe it was a kidnapping.
INTERVIEWER: Targeted kidnapping?
NANOS: Yes. I believe whoever did that knew what they were up to.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HUNT: You delve into the why of crimes in the podcast that you host. What do you think about the sheriff's theory here? Do you think the why is clear?
CANDICE DELONG, FORMER FBI PROFILER: Well, I think that statistically, people over 80 that are kidnapped, it is almost always for ransom, and it is almost always and I mean, over 95 percent of the time someone involved with the kidnapping is known to the victim. Sometimes so-called friend of the family or, someone that's a friend of someone that knows the victim. I have worked kidnappings like that before.
One of the things that -- that just came up today, this new TMZ saying they've received a new communication appears to be a ransom note. Just want to be clear, the FBI has not yet confirmed the authenticity of any ransom note. I, in regards to your question about the sheriff, there is no reason to not believe this was a targeted kidnapping. And the -- and the purpose would be money, ransom.
HUNT: Right. So, John Miller -- I mean, given all of that and we've covered a number of these ransom notes now and, you know it's not been clear you know, how serious any of them are in terms of whether or not they're actually connected. I mean, is it possible that all the reporting and information about ransom notes going to TMZ leads to more ransom notes going to TMZ?
[16:40:07]
MILLER: Well, it is. TMZ has done a very good job of making itself kind of the known portal for ransom notes by appearing on television. And, you know, Harvey doing as many interviews as he's done and speculating about the notes and giving information out.
And I have to say as much as that brings attention to TMZ, he has also been extraordinarily disciplined as a journalist at holding things back that have been in those notes at the request of the FBI. So it's not to suggest that they've been irresponsible, but they have become somewhat of a magnet to people either demanding money because they want the ransom or demanding money because they claim to have information, or now a new alternative ransom note which we don't have a clear indication as to whether its purported purportedly to be from the same people behind the first two. So, I think that -- that just is what it is.
HUNT: Yeah. Candice, what does it say to you that we are now 18 days into this in terms of how long this may go on?
DELONG: It's very worrisome, primarily because of her age the fact that there was her blood found on the porch. Now, let me be clear about the blood on the porch. We -- we, the public, do not know how much. We do not know -- did it appear to be fresh, damp, or was it old and dry? There is no scientific test that can tell how long dried blood has been somewhere, but if it wasn't dry.
And that worries me. She's 84 years old. If it was fresh blood, we don't even know how much it -- how much of it there was. Why did that happen? So, and the 18 days is very worrisome.
In terms of why -- if they're after money and what else would it be? Why haven't they moved this along? It's very concerning.
HUNT: All right. Candice DeLong, John Miller, thank you both very much. Really appreciate your time today.
And coming up next here in THE ARENA, Mark Zuckerberg takes the stand.
Ahead, what parents in a Los Angeles courtroom heard the Meta CEO say about whether Instagram is designed to be addicting for their children?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARNOLD: The things that came up were that he really didn't have very good answers and very clear answers as to why the internal documentation stated that they were targeting under 13-year-olds.
(END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:47:14]
HUNT: Right now, Meta CEO and Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg is testifying in a Los Angeles courtroom. His company and Google's YouTube are on trial over features which the plaintiffs say harm young people by being deliberately addictive. Also in the courtroom are several parents who claim these platforms have hurt their children. Both Meta and Google have denied the allegations.
CNN's Veronica Miracle joins us now from outside court in Los Angeles.
Veronica, what have we heard from Zuckerberg today?
VERONICA MIRACLE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kasie, Mark Zuckerberg has been defending Meta policies that he says have evolved over the years. Our colleague Sam Delouya is inside the courtroom, and she says there's been some heated exchanges. He's been in the line of fire, having to defend certain policies and internal documents that have been presented regarding how these companies and how Meta have been going after 13-year-olds, tweens, young kids, trying to get them on the app.
We also understand that there are so many parents in that inside the courtroom. They have flown in from all over the country. They have all said that their children have been harmed in one way or another, some of them even saying their children have died because of these social media apps.
Now, this specific case revolves around a 20-year-old woman, her -- and her mother. They are accusing Meta and other social media apps of creating addictive features to these apps. They say that the individual, the 20-year-old woman says that she started using Instagram when she was just nine years old, and her lawyers say by the time she was a teenager, she was using it for more than 16 hours at a time leading to serious mental health issues.
Now, a group of those parents who have flown in, they all came outside during a lunch break, and I specifically asked what was it like to see Mark Zuckerberg? What did he say that stuck out to you? And this is what they said. I want you to hear from them directly.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARNOLD: Seeing him was kind of surreal, to be quite honest. The things that came up were that he really didn't have very good answers and very clear answers as to why the internal documentation stated that they were targeting under 13-year-olds, actively targeting under 13-year-olds that are not supposed to be on their platform anyway. We can't say definitively that something will change but I think what has changed is the whole world now knows what's really going on in -- you know, in Meta and that anything that they say or do, we cannot trust.
(END VIDEO CLIP) MIRACLE: And, Kasie, of course, this case has big implications. That's why so many people are watching it. It could potentially open up Meta and other companies to billions of dollars in damages, potentially other litigation. And it could fundamentally change the way that these apps operate, including their algorithms.
[16:50:01]
Back to you.
HUNT: All right. Veronica Miracle for us -- Veronica, thank you very much.
Our panel is back.
Xochitl Hinojosa, I have to say, look, there's the legal arguments, right?
HINOJOSA: Yeah.
HUNT: There specific about whether Instagram was a factor or the key factor here for this woman. But big picture here -- I mean, I was just overseas, I was in London. The front page of "The Times" said that a social media ban is potentially imminent. There they had thought that that there was no way it was going to happen. Obviously, Australia did it.
Here in the United States, you're starting to hear candidates talk about it. This has become something that I have become really focused on as the mom of two young kids, because it feels like to me that the moms are coming for the phones.
HINOJOSA: Yes.
HUNT: Because we have seen what has happened to kids that are a little bit older than I have little kids right now. And the idea that we're going to allow that to happen again.
I mean, when I think about what it would have been like to have Instagram as a 13-year-old girl, middle school was miserable enough.
HINOJOSA: Yeah, absolutely. And you're seeing many kids fall into depression. And also, meaning bad actors on social media. There are a whole bunch of different factors when it comes to social media.
And you're right, the moms are coming for social media. What I don't understand about this, and you're right, we keep on hearing these instances of people dying because of social media, because of the algorithm but yet, the only real solution -- I mean, the court system. Fine. Okay but that's not the solution.
The actual solution is Congress doing something about it. And we're talking a little bit earlier about Congress fails to act on anything to really solve --
TODD: The last -- in 1934, they passed laws. HINOJOSA: Yeah, they passed laws in 1934. But when it comes to
protecting our children, where is Congress?
HUNT: Well, and here's the thing, Congressman, I know you've been in the room for some of these debates. I covered congress for ten, 15 years. Okay. They are still trying to regulate Facebook, which, you know, I'm sure someone at Facebook will be upset for me saying this, but it is not the cool social media platform. Okay? Like social media has, has way outstripped -- we are so past regulating that and Congress couldn't do.
HINOJOSA: They tried for TikTok.
TODD: Where's your -- what's your MySpace handle?
(CROSSTALK)
HUNT: Right. I just -- how is it even possible that given the constraints of our legislative system, we can possibly keep up with this?
GRAVES: No. Look, Congress is not agile enough anymore to be able to address issues like this, which is an awful situation because look, social media has certainly a tremendous upside. I mean look, as a recovering politician, being able to connect directly with constituents, being able to do virtual town halls, it was an incredibly powerful tool. But you absolutely need safeguards in place to protect kids.
Like I've got three kids and there's no doubt that it challenges our ability to parent because of some of the things that they're exposed to. And Congress does need to step in.
WILLIAMS: Take this a step further to your to both of your points about little kids. I would note that there's internal data, and this is coming up in the trial or internal documents suggesting that tweens were who they wanted to hook because of the specific fact that tweens were more likely to become long term users of Instagram and Facebook and so on.
So, you know, there's a deliberate effort being made to target a relatively young users. I would note not unlike the opioid industry not unlike the tobacco industry, it is hard to see how the tech companies come out on the other side of this without major changes. Now, I don't mean to equate them, but the arguments being used in the trials are substantially similar that their products, when used the way they're supposed to be used, can hurt people. I think they're going to be big settlements here.
HUNT: And the thing about the thing where it makes sense. And, Chuck, I'm interested in your thoughts on this, is that the tobacco companies knew, right? They knew that their products harmed people. And one of the things that is coming out in this trial is that Meta knew a lot more about how addictive their products were than they told the public.
TODD: They worked with behavioral experts on how this stuff works. No, I mean, the algorithms are the nicotine. It is a fair parallel.
This is tobacco. This is going to be this. And look, I also think that Section 230 is not even a protector anymore because the minute you do an algorithm, you're a publisher. You have altered everything.
And so, I think that you're going to -- look, Congress isn't going to do anything about this. They're going to implement it after -- no, no, no.
HUNT: You watch.
TODD: Well, I think this becomes a presidential candidate --
HUNT: That's what I mean.
HINOJOSA: Yeah.
(CROSSTALK)
HUNT: That is what exactly --
TODD: Rahm Emanuel -- Rahm Emanuel has been the guy that has owned this right now of all the early candidates. And I imagine, you know, and he sort of almost in his own lane talking about it a lot but I imagine that this --
HUNT: I think that Rahm Emanuel has a very good nose for the future of politics as a general matter that's why he's taken so seriously.
TODD: I agree, but I also think ultimately, the only way you change behavior is when you make it financially problematic. So it is going to take -- maybe -- I think the legal route is still the more powerful way --
GRAVES: Let me expand scope a little bit here too because I think one of the other big issues that's creeping up is the way that this is an amazing tool that's used for psychological operations. I mean, the ability of folks to be able to tap into social media.
HUNT: But Congress did act on TikTok.
[16:55:00]
GRAVES: Well, on TikTok.
TODD: They did a great job. How did that work out.
GRAVES: On TikTok only, and you know how controversial that was. Something that was -- should have been a cut and dry vote ended up being much more difficult than it should have been.
WILLIAMS: Real quick -- we got to run.
HUNT: Sorry. We have -- Mr. Tapper is on the other side.
TODD: Get (ph) his time. HUNT: All right. Thank you all very much.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HUNT: All right. Thanks to my panel. Really appreciate you.
Thanks to all of you at home for watching as well. Don't forget, you can now stream THE ARENA. We are live or catch up whenever you want in the CNN app. The QR code is on your screen for that.
You can also catch up by listening to THE ARENA's podcast. Follow show on X and Instagram @TheArenaCNN.
But don't go anywhere because Jake Tapper is standing by for "THE LEAD".
Hi, Jake.
