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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt

Now: Judiciary Committee Deadline On If Blanche Vote Will Proceed; Comey's Attorneys: Secret Service Surveilled Former FBI Director; Fauci Invokes The Fifth 100+ Times In GOP-Led Hearing. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired July 29, 2026 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:04]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Hi, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. Welcome to THE ARENA. It's great to have you with us on this Wednesday.

Right now, don't mess with Texas.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R-TX): For some reason, I don't know whether it's the staff of the DOJ or who it is, but they simply, they know what they need to do, but they simply refuse to do it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: As we come on the air, we now are at what could be a make-or- break moment for Todd Blanche. At least two key Republican senators are not fully on board with his nomination to be attorney general. This just hours before a critical vote in the Judiciary Committee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CORNYN: Senator Grassley tells me that we need to know by four o'clock this afternoon whether the markup is still on. Maybe they think I'm just going to give up or, you know, go along, but they're mistaken. I think they realize now that we're serious, and I think Senator Tillis is pretty much on the same page that I am, so they better get real.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: So, if you watch this show, you'll note the time. We are now about, almost 60 seconds past four o'clock. That is the time that the committee has set to figure out if they're going to go ahead with tomorrow's vote.

And as of right now, it is just not clear whether the Justice Department has put John Cornyn's mind at ease. This is all, of course, over the $1.8 billion anti-weaponization fund and, perhaps critically, that controversial agreement that shields the president and his family from IRS audits. Cornyn and Senator Thom Tillis saying they haven't heard what they

need to hear to get them to a yes. The majority leader realizing the very real possibility that a key nomination could go South trying to mend fences.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN THUNE (R-SD), MAJORITY LEADER: I would encourage them to sit down, which I think they are, and trying to come to a resolution there so that the markup can continue tomorrow and we can get Todd Blanche ready for the floor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: So, now, the chairman of the Judiciary Committee, that is Senator Chuck Grassley deciding whether to postpone tomorrow's planned vote or roll the dice.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Why do you think they're not getting a message from you?

CORNYN: Maybe they think they can roll me.

RAJU: Can they roll you?

CORNYN: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: No.

All right, let's get off the sidelines, head into THE ARENA. My panel will be here.

We're going to get started, though, with CNN chief congressional correspondent Manu Raju, who, of course, you saw there.

So, Manu, what more are we hearing from Senator Cornyn about the problems here, what he is or isn't hearing from DOJ, and what happens next?

RAJU: Well, he is expected to meet this hour with Chuck Grassley, the Judiciary Committee chairman. He's going to make that critical decision about whether to delay this vote. And it's not just simply a scheduling issue, because a delay of this nomination could effectively derail the nomination or push it back until later in the fall.

Remember, senators are scheduled to go into recess at the end of next week and be gone until after Labor Day. And the Senate Majority Leader John Thune had hoped to confirm Todd Blanche on the floor of the United States Senate next week.

So, if there's a delay, that delays the committee process, that delays a floor vote, it pushes everything back, and it doesn't get the president what he wants, which perhaps is one reason why Tom Blanche is not here at the moment on Capitol Hill. He's been spotted at the White House. We'll see if he was actually meeting with White House officials and discuss how to resolve John Cornyn's concerns.

But Cornyn made very clear to me that even though the Justice Department provided a written proposal to him, it did not go far enough to meet his demands.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: So, you look to the statement from DOJ, they said that they had sent you this request, this proposal.

CORNYN: It was not responsible.

RAJU: And what do you mean by that, is not responsible?

CORNYN: I mean, it did not cover the audit issue or the scope of the release issue. That's what I mean.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Now, we did spot Todd Blanche here on Capitol Hill earlier today. He did not answer any of our questions. He met with a separate Republican senator who is not on the Senate Judiciary Committee.

But the Judiciary Committee is critical, Kasie, because as you know, it is narrowly divided between the two parties. One Republican defection on a party line vote could scuttle that nomination for good.

And John Cornyn told me today that at the moment he is a no. He said that I am certainly not a yes, and he was still that way this afternoon. just moments ago.

So, until something changes, that means that Blanche's nomination is not going anywhere. And we'll see if he's able to resolve the concerns of Thom Tillis, who has raised similar issues. And of course, both those men, though, Kasie, as you know, Cornyn and Tillis free from political pressures. Tillis not running for reelection. Cornyn is no longer running for reelection after he was defeated by that Trump- backed challenger, Ken Paxton, in his primary, which gives him a lot of latitude to defy the president, and he's threatening to do that right here -- Kasie.

[16:05:10]

HUNT: Funny how that works, isn't it?

Manu Raju, on Capitol Hill -- Manu, thanks. I appreciate it.

All right. My panel is here in THE ARENA. CNN contributor, host of "The New York Times'" "The Interview", Lulu Garcia-Navarro; former Republican senator from Arizona, Jeff Flake; former Democratic congressman from New York, Joe Crowley; and former Republican congressman from Michigan, Peter Meijer.

Welcome to all of you. Thank you all for being here.

Senator Flake, you, of course, have --

JEFF FLAKE (R), FORMER ARIZONA SENATOR: Been there.

HUNT: -- been there.

(LAUGHTER)

HUNT: In so many ways, nuanced ways, as someone who, of course, ended up on the wrong side of the president. Thom Tillis said this to "The Wall Street Journal" about this whole situation.

"Everybody wants to paint this as some sort of insurrection. This is actually senators exercising their power," Tillis said. "In the past, it's actually what we did, and it would annoy people, but it wasn't some sort of breach of loyalty. But that's the sort of world that we're in today, and it's absurd."

FLAKE: He's exactly right. I had 15 months from when I announced I wasn't running for re-election. until I was out of the Senate. So, there was plenty of time to run afoul, I guess, at the White House on this issue or that.

But I can just tell you, I talked to both Senator Tillis and Senator Cornyn yesterday, and they are, on this issue, immovable. They have to get a written assurance and further explanation. And that's just exercising their prerogative.

And the Senate used to jealously guard that prerogative on all areas, whether it's on appropriations or tariff issues or whatever. And we've kind of ceded that territory. And Senator Tillis is right. This is just two senators acting as senators should.

HUNT: What would you say, having talked to them, is kind of a bigger hurdle here? Because we've obviously focused a lot on the anti- weaponization fund, but this IRS piece is critical.

FLAKE: And that Senator Cornyn is really fixed on that. He wants to make sure that this doesn't bind any future action. If there -- if Trump family somehow runs afoul of the law in the future, that this doesn't cover them for that. So I think it's relatively simple to do, but as Senator Cornyn said, they just refused to do it.

HUNT: Yeah. Congressman, you too have been in a position where you've run afoul of President Trump in one way or the other and paid a political price for it. What do you see here?

PETER MEIJER (R), FORMER MICHIGAN CONGRESSMAN: I had only about a week of actual time under the Trump administration. That was not a very busy time for that. They're well within their rights. I mean, to the senator's point, I mean, this is them exercising their ability. It's a negotiation and they have leverage.

I think, to me, the question is, is this a sincere negotiation or was it always going to wind up this way? Because at the end of the day, for Todd Blanche, he's currently the acting attorney general. He has been Senate confirmed. He could fill that position for quite a lot of time, and we can test the Vacancy Reform Act. You know, just does he want that acting in front of his name?

So, you know, this is far less about substantively can somebody go and exercise those powers and more is this going to be a fight that results in something productive that both sides can come to an agreement on or not?

HUNT: Senator, what do you think?

FLAKE: No, I mean, this is the president not wanting to give up any flexibility that he has. He desperately wants to bring that anti- weaponization fund back. On the other issue, I can't speak to that as to what immunity they want in the future, but they likely want that immunity as well.

LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Come on, they want it. That's the thing that he really wants.

FLAKE: And that, he just doesn't want to give that up. Todd Blanche would do it in a heartbeat. He doesn't, Todd Blanche himself, doesn't want to deal with this anti-weaponization fund or the other, but the president doesn't want to give in.

HUNT: But this is the whole -- do you think that Cornyn and Tellis are sincere?

FLAKE: Yes, completely, completely.

HUNT: Sorry, go ahead.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yeah, no, I mean... I don't know. What is sincerity at this point? You know, we don't know what is really in people's hearts, but what we do know is that this is the YOLO caucus sort of flexing its muscles, which is you only live once, and these are two men that were really burned by the president, and they now have the freedom to actually do what they should have been doing all along. We know --

HUNT: They did have that freedom, but they just weren't availing themselves.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: No, no, but why? Why? Because the problem has always been that the president exerts pressure, obviously, but it is the president and his supporters.

So, the problem is that he controls the voters. It's not the president himself, right? And so that's where the big problem lies for a lot of these Republicans who are up for re-election.

Now these two are free. But the fact of the matter is that this is actually a really important issue. This anti-weaponization fund has been viewed to be illegal. This IRS sort of waiver thing is just absolutely on its face, like immoral. And so, they're right.

[16:10:01]

JOE CROWLEY (D), FORMER CHAIRMAN, DEMOCRATIC CAUCUS: You know, I have -- I am very fond of John Cornyn. I think he's a great gentleman and very fond of him personally. I don't know Tillis as well.

But I have to say it's incredible the level of courage someone has when they're not running for office again.

And, Jeff, you were there when in office doing this, but it's really remarkable to see what's happening now. And I think this is the way the system should work. They're doing what senators should be doing. They're the statesmen. They're the folks who will be there for six years because they can think outside the box in the long term. And, you know, maybe this is how the process should work.

HUNT: Let's flash back to a couple of Todd Blanche's remarks that also, I think, help kind of add some context or a little bit of contour to what we're talking about here. The first was a question that he got from Senator John Kennedy at his confirmation hearing. where Kennedy inquired with Blanche about the nature of their relationship. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN KENNEDY (R-LA): Are you and President Trump friends?

TODD BLANCHE, ACTING ATTORNEY GENERAL: I'm his lawyer, was his lawyer, and now I'm the deputy attorney general.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Hmm. Little slip there, okay? He says, I am his lawyer, right, as he's auditioning to be the country's top law enforcement official.

Now, let's also watch when he was pressed at a different hearing about whether he would be willing to write down what he had said, the assurances that he had made about the Anti-Weaponization Fund, and whether it was, in fact, actually dead.

Let's watch that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. GRACE MENG (D-NY): Mr. Attorney General, I want to thank you for verbally committing to not moving forward with the so-called Anti- Weaponization Fund. I just want to make sure, are you going to issue a new memo in writing rescinding that May 18th memo?

BLANCHE: I'm not committing to putting anything in writing. I said it over and over again.

MENG: Nothing in writing?

BLANCHE: I don't know what the purpose of putting something in writing. I'm telling you what we're doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FLAKE: He's a lawyer. He should know the purpose of putting something in writing.

HUNT: Well --

CROWLEY: It's abrogation of an agreement. If you don't put it in writing, it's still intact.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: What's the paper that you're written on? It's written on.

HUNT: Yeah, I mean, and I guess, Senator, it seems to me that perhaps these this pair of answers illuminates something that may be a driving part of all these conversations which is -- you know, can you trust what the man says?

FLAKE: No, you -- you can only trust him so much as you trust the president and the president has said number of occasions that he likes this anti-weaponization fund. He wants it to come back and doesn't know why they scrapped in the first place and so and that's what matters here it's not what Todd Blanche thinks it would he be willing to -- to buck the president on this, and nobody thinks that he would.

But let me just say, on the broader issue, I feel so much better about where we are as a country, having come back here this week for Lindsey Graham's funeral, and to watch, one, Republicans and Democrats in the Senate come together and honor a man who was very bipartisan, say what you want about policies or whatever, and then to see John Cornyn and Thom Tillis stand up on this, and to see the Senate exercise its prerogatives and push back.

Now that filing deadlines are gone, most primaries are gone, you know, you can say it's a little late for Republicans, but some of them are standing up. And it's made me feel a lot better about where we are.

HUNT: Congressman, do you share that sentiment?

MEIJER: I mean, I think that this is a wonderful -- no, I want the House share the Senate, too. I mean, there's a very famous negative rivalry between the two bodies. to be asserting their prerogatives as the first among equal as an Article 1 branch, you know, and that's where, you know, to Joe's earlier point, and I think in both of their cases, this is sincere.

My frustration is when somebody, which again is not their case, but the opposite is when you have somebody who loses office and all of a sudden, all the positions they took out of convenience they jettison.

So, I want to see them finish out their terms, standing up for the things that they believe in. I think they're sincere in believing that the weaponization fund is bad, that they have serious questions about the IRS component. I just -- there's so many other important things that we need to get done before the end of the year. I want to make sure that those get through, which is why I think the White House should negotiate, should approach us in good faith. CROWLEY: I'm not at a kumbaya moment yet. These are positive things that are happening overall for the country and the institutions themselves, but we have a ways to go. And I do think that there are a lot of distractions going on, not the least of which is the war, not least is the economy, but I think Democrats appreciate Republicans fighting amongst themselves as long as they can.

HUNT: So, it's close to Kumbaya as we're going to get the, you know, 90, what, eight days out from the midterm elections.

[16:15:05]

But speaking of the economy, let's remember that this is the driving reason why President Trump was put back in the Oval Office to begin with.

We have breaking news off of Wall Street. Just look at this. The stock market just closed. It's red across the board. The Dow Jones Industrial Average falling more than 1,100 points. It's the stock market's worst day in more than a year. This is after the Federal Reserve, which is led by newly installed Chairman Kevin Warsh, voted to keep interest rates where they are.

The NASDAQ and the S&P 500 also tumbled about 1 percent each. We're going to talk more about where things stand on the economy throughout the hour, including bringing you new CNN polling about how people feel the president's handling the economy, inflation, and his overall job performance.

So, coming up next here in THE ARENA, the new allegations of illegal surveillance coming from FBI director James Comey and his effort to dismiss charges of threatening the president.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:20:27]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He knew exactly what that meant. A child knows what that meant. If you're the FBI director and you don't know what that meant, that meant assassination. He did it for a reason, and he was hit so hard. Because people like me, and they like what's happening with our country. Our country's become respected again and all this. And he's calling for the assassination of the president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: New court filings today suggesting that President Trump was far more involved in the investigation into former FBI Director James Comey's now infamous "86 47" seashell post than had been previously understood. Comey's attorneys writing that the president's team was asking for transcripts of the Secret Service's interview with Comey while aboard. They also outlined how federal officials, apparently acting without a (AUDIO GAP) tailed Comey and his wife as they drove from North Carolina to Virginia.

CNN crime and justice correspondent Katelyn Polantz joins the panel.

Katelyn, what more can you tell us about how and why we're learning this? And it does seem unusual that they would have surveilled him without a warrant. Can you explain that piece of it?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME & JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Kasie, there are so many details here we didn't know before about how this case came together. You thought it might have been just that seashell post that Comey had attention drawn to and then he took down and was interviewed by the FBI. But in fact, there were many other steps that his defense team has learned happened after that post and after James Comey removed it, apologized for it, said he didn't intend any violence for it.

What happened back in May of 2025, Comey was walking on the beach in Emerald Isle. That took a photo of it and then later he says that he was sitting on his porch at the beach when one of his neighbors came up and, quote, "gave him the double bird" that's when he realized that he might have caused a bit of a stir. Then a person that his wife knew was started texting his wife to say that this could be something that implied violence, that person that was texting his wife. The FBI and the Secret Service interviewed multiple times and they said that they were reaching out to Comey's wife because Rudy Giuliani had been talking about it publicly.

So as this investigation is happening, then there is also communication between the federal government's investigators and the Secret Service that's traveling with Donald Trump overseas and they are getting briefed on the interview with Comey what Comey's version of the tale is that I just laid out. There are then follow-up interviews that take place done by the Secret or the FBI. There are searches done. There are investigators looking at the mafia literature, the body of law in mafia cases, seeing how often the number 86 comes up.

And when they looked at the Gambino trial, whenever Comey was a prosecutor, it's not part of the record there. They then went and talked to a former convicted mobster, someone named Salvatore Gravano, Sammy the Bull is what he's called. He says that 86 could have meant to kill. He's now on parole. He's served his time. He was in witness protection.

But they spoke to this convicted mobster, decide to use him to build the case. And then they ask him what prosecutor -- who could prosecutors use from the government to understand more about 86? Sammy the Bull, he tells the investigators in the Comey case, you should talk to this guy, John Gleason.

John Gleason's a former judge. And he now is in this court filing working with Comey's defense team. He's in private practice now, a former mafia prosecutor who had prosecuted a number of members of the mafia.

And he writes, "The claim that 86 is mafia jargon for kill is preposterous. If it weren't made in the context of seeking to deprive a man of his liberty, it would be laughable. I have never come into contact with a single recorded conversation where a mafia member uses 86 in any way, shape or form, let alone to refer to killing or murder. There is literally no support for the central allegation on which the case rests."

That is the bulk of what Comey's team is also arguing here, that this is just a nonsense charge against James Comey should be thrown out of court before he were ever to go to trial.

[16:25:07]

But they're also leaning into other things they learned from this investigation, including how they say Donald Trump was getting a briefing through the Secret Service about the interview that the FBI or the Secret Service conducted with James Comey So they mention about a so-called -- what they say would be an illegal search where investigators were waffling on whether they should track Comey's phone as he was riding in the car, driving in the car with his wife, home from the beach in North Carolina after making that post.

They were pinging his phone to get its location, and they also were tailing him on I-95 headed north -- Kasie.

HUNT: Okay.

Joe Crowley, you were nodding at the mention of Sammy the Bull.

(LAUGHTER)

CROWLEY: A little too close to home in Queens.

Well, you know, I think, you know, '86, '47 reminds me of Maxwell Smart. If you don't mind, my shoe phone is ringing. So let me -- you know, to me, it's selective, it's vindictive in terms of this prosecution.

No one believes that Comey in any way, shape, or form ever had any intention of causing violence to the president, and it just, to me, is just ridiculous. And now that the using, the surveillance using the Secret Service to do this is just, it's just outlandish and illegal.

So, you know, anyway --

HUNT: Yeah. Senator, what's your take on this?

FLAKE: Agree completely.

Jim -- they're looking for a way to prosecute him and going to Sammy the Bull Gravano and asking him and I think he said no self-suspect or respecting mob boss would use that kind of term.

But I'm not insensitive to -- I mean, political violence or threats. I was on that baseball field. I've had a lot of death threats. And so, this is a serious business but this -- I mean, they're just looking for something to go after James Comey for, and this happened to be it. HUNT: Right. Well, he also -- the president, of course, had kind of posted in public to his attorney general, then attorney general, saying, hey, why are we not going after these people, Lulu?

GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yeah, and I think what we have learned now is that the president was very, very engage, shall we say, in finding out exactly what Comey had said. And so, to bring us back to what we were talking about to begin with, which was Todd Blanche at the Justice Department and at the DOJ, I mean, this is part of a pattern that we see in the administration where the president is using the tools of government to go after the people that he wants to go after. And that is illegal. And again, it is not the way that the presidency should be used.

HUNT: Congressman, do you dissent? What's the face?

MEIJER: No, I just, I don't want to -- I was hoping I would never have to think about James Comey ever again, and now we're dissecting.

FLAKE: You sound like a Democrat. You sound like a Democrat.

HUNT: Try saying that 17 times fast on television like I keep having to.

MEIJER: No, I mean, yeah, if the Trump administration keeps this up, he's going to be your 2028 Democratic nominee for president. I mean, they're just going to catapult him right in. It'll be Michael Avenatti 2.0.

CROWLEY: The president should be at the altar of James Comey and thanking him for being the president in the first place in 2016.

HUNT: Certainly, Hillary's team think that.

CROWLEY: Yes.

HUNT: Finish your thought. I mean, like --

MEIJER: I mean, he's right up there with Anthony Fauci of folks that just fade into the distance. Now, Fauci has a lot of things to answer for, and he shouldn't just be pleading the Fifth. I think he deserves -- the American people deserve some semblance of honesty and accountability for the mismatch between his private recollections and his public pronouncements.

But these are just figures that. have these -- have way outstripped their competence in terms of their ego and I think they have left lasting images to the detriment of this country and to our trust in institutions. So --

GARCIA-NAVARRO: But President Trump cannot let it go, cannot let it -- I mean, this -- I think many of us would not be wanting to talk about James Comey or anyone else, but this is because the president cannot let it go.

MEIJER: Age maximums for social media. That's the solution. HUNT: Indeed.

All right. Katelyn Polantz, do you want a very brief last word?

POLANTZ: Yeah, one of the things here that is probably going to be happening going forward is the judge will look at whether this is going to open up the defense team for Comey's ability to get more information about Trump wanting briefings on this, and also the involvement of top political leaders. The first time that Comey was indicted, it became deeply embarrassing for the Justice Department, for Todd Blanche now having his confirmation on the line.

All of that's coming together, and one of the needles that the defense team is threading here is saying that some of this came about because Rudy Giuliani was talking about it on his online show. So, we'll see how that all comes together.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: I know that blast from the past, here we are.

(LAUGHTER)

HUNT: Indeed, here we are, for better or for worse, in sickness and in health.

[16:30:02]

Katelyn Polantz, thank you. I really appreciate it.

The rest of our panel's going to stick around.

Coming up next, Democratic Senator Andy Kim is going to join us here live in THE ARENA. After the Homeland Security Committee grilled Dr. Anthony Fauci on the government's response to the COVID pandemic, what he said, and more notably what he didn't say that's now prompting talk of a contempt vote.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, FORMER NIAID DIRECTOR: Respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution. I respectfully decline. I respectfully decline. I respectfully decline. I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:35:14]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOSH HAWLEY (R-MO): What day of the week is it today?

FAUCI: On the device of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution. HAWLEY: What color tie are you wearing?

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

HAWLEY: What color is the carpet in front of you?

FAUCI: On the advice of counsel, I respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: If you happened to tune in to Dr. Anthony Fauci's Capitol Hill testimony today, you would have heard that answer over 100 times. The 85-year-old infectious disease doctor, who, of course, became the face of the country's response to the COVID-19 pandemic, repeatedly invoked his Fifth Amendment right during a round of intense questioning from Republican senators, who Fauci said were trying to get him to commit perjury.

Fauci's appearance on Capitol Hill came following the release of his COVID-era diaries. in which the doctor detailed his interactions with President Trump and the, quote/unquote, media frenzy that surrounded him at the time. The contentious Senate hearing culminated in this moment when his lawyer was escorted out of the hearing following a tense back and forth with the committee's chairman, Rand Paul, who now says today's hearing will not be the end of it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY): It's already been scheduled for next week for a vote on contempt of Congress. I think the courts will have to figure out whether or not if you have a complete pardon, whether you have a liability against incrimination, can you incriminate yourself if you have a pardon?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: All right. Joining me now is one of the senators at today's hearing, Democratic Senator Andy Kim of New Jersey.

Senator, thanks very much for being here. Take us inside the room here because this clearly was very personal between Senator Paul and Dr. Fauci.

SEN. ANDY KIM (D-NJ): Yeah, absolutely. I mean, look, the first thing I'll just say is what didn't happen, which is that at a time when our country is at war with Iran, at a time when we have natural disasters and FEMA is withholding funding for states, especially blue states, from getting the funding that they need, this is where chairman and the Homeland Security and the congressional Republicans wanted to spend their time.

So, you know, this was just performative governance at its worst trying to dig up you know someone who is no longer in office at a time when we have such priorities that are there clearly a vendetta that was meant to be done.

And look, you know, when it's going against somebody who is been leading up a federal agency before for 38 years was appointed by Ronald Reagan, served under seven presidents four of them Republican presidents, you know, this is somebody who was a public servant and the fact that we were putting -- wasting time on this rather than dealing with issues that the American people are demanding us focusing on like the war, that's -- you know, that's really just a waste of our time.

HUNT: Would you have encouraged Doctor Fauci to handle this any differently? I mean, do you think he generated additional problems for himself by, I mean, you saw in that exchange, answering every question the way that he did?

KIM: Look, I'm not an attorney. I don't know how best to be able to navigate that. But what I do know is that this was a -- this was set up for them to be able to attack him one way or another.

So regardless of whether he was answering the questions or did what he did today, the attacks were going to be there. And clearly was something that was meant to try to trip him up, trying to further any type of legal problems that he would have down the road. And again, just the fact that this is how we're using our time at a time when we're seeing real problems with the stock market today, other things, it's just so out of touch with what the American people are asking us to focus on.

HUNT: Yeah, just finally before we move to some of those other topics, do you feel confident that you understand the full scope of what the government knew, didn't know, and did and didn't tell the American people during the pandemic?

KIM: Well, look, certainly there's going to be more that we need to do. I mean, after any type of crisis, you know, we should be having the type of research and analysis after 9/11, after any crisis.

I was on the select committee on the coronavirus crisis during the pandemic, so certainly I saw many officials come before us. say, giving us their best judgment, but all of them said there's no perfect clarity when you're in the midst of a pandemic.

This was a novel virus. They didn't know how it was going to, each strand, how it was going to be effective. They didn't know fully how the vaccines were going to, and they let us know that. And it wasn't just Dr. Fauci, it was everybody.

HUNT: And you feel like they were saying the same thing in public as they had been saying in private?

KIM: At least in terms of what I saw, yes, and I think that -- but again, Any type of crisis situation, you know, there's always going to be challenges of clarity.

[16:40:01] I've worked in war and conflict. You know, no one has perfect judgment. And so, yes, you know, there are going to be some issues on that front, but it shouldn't be something that we hold against someone individually in such a way like we saw today.

HUNT: Let's talk a little bit about the upcoming midterm elections and of course your home state of New Jersey the governor recently told her constituents that there had been a glitch that had caused a number of people who were not United States citizens to register to vote some 400 or so of them ended up actually voting. At the time you responded to it by saying, well, somebody should be fired for that.

KIM: Yeah, I agree with that --

HUNT: Has someone been fired for that?

KIM: Well, right now, the investigation in terms of who's at fault is underway. And that's exactly what we need to be doing, is understand who knew about this, why is it that this was not brought to the people of New Jersey sooner? Why is it that senior leadership at least are saying that they didn't know about this? That's unacceptable.

And that's something that we do need answers on. And also, we need assurances that this is going to be fixed and that we're not going to have these problems again in the future.

HUNT: Are you aware of any instance where these people voting affected the outcome of an election in New Jersey?

KIM: Nothing that I'm aware of. At least that's what the governor has said in terms of a rundown. And again, we need to make sure that we don't have these problems again and that the people of New Jersey feel, and frankly around the country, that they feel assured about the integrity of their election at a time when that is so often used for weaponization and so much used by this administration, the Trump administration, to sow doubt in people's democracy.

HUNT: Well, speaking of the Trump administration, I mean, they have demanded that New Jersey hand over the names of these 400 people, and so far, Governor Sherrill has refused to do that. I mean, should she hand those names over?

KIM: Well, first of all, a judge just a couple hours ago said no, that the Trump administration should not be able to get this, the voter rolls from New Jersey. And look, beyond just the legal side, this is a president who called up election officials in Georgia and asked them to find him 11,780 votes.

So is this a presidential state's operation of elections? Absolutely not. I mean, and the American people heard that phone call and they understand that this is someone who has in the past tried to manipulate the results of an election. No way he should get anywhere close to our voter rolls.

HUNT: So, speaking, of course, of people who are in this country or have faced law enforcement action, you have taken a very public stand around conditions at ICE facilities in your state. You were pepper sprayed, I believe. And this is something that is taken, in some ways, a new form of standing up in our politics, right?

There are some Democrats who many would criticize as being part of the establishment who send letters. You were out in front of the ICE facility doing what you did to try to shine a light on this policy.

My question to you is, do you think that that's the kind of leadership that your party is going to need from people like, say, it's 2028? Is that what your voters are going to demand?

KIM: What I think they want is they want someone that's going to show up, someone who is going to engage with the people and understand that right now, it's more than just about being on social media and just about talking about these different issues. But one thing I will say is that it's important that we not just talk about what we're against.

We have to talk about what we're for. So yes, I'm going to talk about how I'm opposed to what this administration is doing on health care, what they did on ICE, and certainly at Delaney Hall. But for instance, last week, I just put forward a major piece of legislation, the biggest of my career, called MediKids, which is a vision of in this country.

That's what people want. They want a sense of about my opposition to the Medicaid cuts of Trump for, and that's where I think the Democratic Party, that the leadership and future candidates for president need to come in is to show that vision of what it is that we are going to be able to provide and hold that choice up for the American people in the midterms as well as in the race for the White House.

HUNT: Do you think the presidential nominee will need to be -- the Democratic presidential nominee will need to be a progressive?

KIM: No, I don't think it has to be any particular sort of subsection and fracture in that kind of direction. In fact, I think it's going to be someone that can speak across it, be able to unify around an idea, but also generate the energy.

And I think part of why I think we see progressive candidates successful right now is they are talking about bold ideas, but that's -- you know, that's not something where any segment of the Democratic Party has a monopoly on bold ideas.

HUNT: All right.

KIM: So, you know, I'm hoping that we'll have someone that can unify the party, put us forward with a really clear vision.

[16:45:02]

HUNT: All right. Senator Andy Kim of New Jersey, sir, thanks very much for being here.

KIM: Thank you. HUNT: Really appreciate your time.

All right, ahead here in THE ARENA, the new CNN polling about how Americans are feeling about the Iran war as a former ally to the president calls for his impeachment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEX JONES, FOUNDER, INFOWARS: The big issue is how to stop Trump. And we have to have Congress go for the War Powers. They've three times tried to vote War Powers. They're supposed to authorize a war. I'm calling for it right now 25th Amendment, impeachment, whatever needs to happen to get this front and center to get control of our country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEVIN WARSH, FEDERAL RESERVE CHAIR: The economy is showing impressive resilience.

[16:50:00]

Even with recent shocks, the trends are positive and reveal solid growth.

Inflation remains elevated relative to the committee's two percent goal. The committee remains resolute. You've heard this before, but we will deliver price stability.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: All right, breaking news, the Dow tanking by over 1,100 points, capping off its worst trading day. In more than a year, the S&P and the tech heavy NASDAQ also ending the day in the red. The market moves all coming off an announcement by the Fed, saw part of it there, to keep interest rates steady despite growing pressure to tackle inflation more directly.

This as a new CNN poll also out today reveals just how dissatisfied Americans are with President Trump and his handling of the economy amid the renewed conflict with Iran. The president's job approval? Yeah, now 34 percent.

That number is the same as the career low that he experienced in his first term. OK, so that number was last seen after the January 6 insurrection, OK, to give you a sense of just how bad things are for the president.

And, Senator Flake, I mean, we can just put these numbers up, OK? Trump approval on the economy, 30 percent. Iran, 28 percent. Inflation, 25 percent. Gas prices, 21 percent.

Does the president have a clear plan for handling Iran? Twenty-six percent say he does, 74 percent say he does not.

CNN polled. Trump have the right priorities? Yes, 27 percent. No, 73 percent.

Like, on and on and on. I mean, where is this coming from, and what does it say about where we're going?

FLAKE: Well, foreign policy rarely matters in elections, as we all know.

HUNT: Yes.

FLAKE: It's the economy that matters. But here, foreign policy has a huge impact on what the economy --

HUNT: Because it's directly tied to the economy.

FLAKE: Yeah, it's directly tied. And so, yeah, this is bad news all the way around.

And so, when I said earlier that I thought this was a good week in Washington and I feel better, part of it is because I'm convinced that divided government is coming. And then part of it is because of polls like this.

And so, yeah, this is really bad news. And the worst news is there's no easy way out of it. You can't just flip a switch and say, OK, that didn't work. Because now that we're in, I don't see any way you get out of this and have control or have nobody controlling that Strait of Hormuz without some more kinetic action.

GARCIA-NAVARRO: He's not interested in even getting out of it. I think what you see in these polls over and over again, especially when they ask, does the president have the right priorities, does the president care about the things that I care about, you see him polling exceedingly low. They see him as distracted. They see him as not engaged in the issues that are important to them.

And so, what does this show? It shows that the American people are pretty clued in to what's actually happening in this country.

HUNT: I'm flashing back to what you said earlier in the show about being happy to be -- You weren't enjoying a kumbaya moment, but you were happy to be a Democrat in the course of.

CROWLEY: But at the same time, I'm worried about the average person in this country.

And I think that the president, for all his communicative abilities, he's not able to communicate directly to the people about their problems, what they're suffering right now because he doesn't know what the price of eggs were. He never did. He never knew what a gallon of milk ever cost. He never knew what the price of gasoline was. He never had to.

So, it's really hard for him. I think he's talking about groceries. That's an arcane word. I don't know what you would substitute it with.

I mean, these are words he never used because he never had to go to a grocery store. And so, it's hard to communicate or have empathy towards people who are struggling that way when you yourself never had to do that. You never worried about where your next meal was coming from. You never had to worry about or yourself. And I think that's really his biggest problem right now.

MEIJER: I will say the Fed remains an independent entity. The president would have wanted to see interest rates cut. The markets wanted to see interest rates rise to address some of that inflation, and the Fed voted to keep it stable.

The thing that I don't understand on the polling side, though, right now, Morning Consult also released their presidential approval poll yesterday. It showed the president's approval being the -- or the weakest disapproval, the strongest he's had since before the Iran war.

I want to fast forward three and a half months from now and get the postmortem on why our polls are showing such different things, and also how predictive they will ultimately be.

Because the weirdest thing, too, is, you know, the president's approval is very low. The generic ballot, though, isn't really And I think going into a midterms, you know, where the Cook Political Report just released their updated numbers of the PVI, you know, we have so few actual seats that will move.

And Democrats need to pick up three quarters of those that are within that D plus five to R plus five to flip. So this is -- the politics are weird, the vibes are weird.

[16:55:02]

I just want to get on the other side of it and figure out what we do --

HUNT: Yeah, the analysis the congressman is talking about showed fewer true swing states and showed a House of Representatives that is more likely to be a little bit more Republican than previously. So, we shall see.

On that note, we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HUNT: All right, thanks to my panel. Really appreciate you all being here. This was great conversation today.

Thanks to all of you at home for watching. We really appreciate you as well.

Don't go anywhere. Jake Tapper -- Jake Tapper is standing by for "THE LEAD".

Hi, Jake.