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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt

New: House Committee Announces Investigation Into GOP Rep. Max Miller; Sources: U.S. Has Used Nearly 80 Percent Of Key Missile Interceptors; Now: Voting In Michigan Primary As Dems Battle Over Party's Future; Sources: Trump Shouted At Pirro In Tense White House Meeting. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired August 04, 2026 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:00]

BRIAN ABEL, CNN HOST: African elephant.

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: You got it, yeah. The superlatives are key here. We're trying to give folks relative things that they can understand.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Yeah, elephants on the moon.

Pete Muntean, thank you.

MUNTEAN: Because everyone has experience with a pet elephant.

KEILAR: THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT starts now.

(MUSIC)

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Hi, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. Welcome to THE ARENA. It's great to have you with us on this Tuesday.

As we come on the air, an ugly scandal growing uglier, more urgent, and quite simply more heartbreaking.

This afternoon, the House Ethics Committee announced an investigation into whether Republican Congressman Max Miller engaged in domestic abuse or illegal drug use. Earlier today, Miller announced that he himself would request that investigation, claiming that it would clear his name.

This comes following a Sunday video in which Miller categorically denied the allegations against him and vowed to release exonerating evidence.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MAX MILLER (R-OH): Do yourselves a favor, ladies and gentlemen. Take a look at the documents. Take a look at the actual evidence that we have sent you.

Do your homework, do your research, because when you do, you will find that you really have done a lot of damage to a really good family who didn't deserve it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: So, Congressman Miller then shared a link to a file containing hundreds of messages, images, and videos involving his ex-wife, Emily Moreno, who made many of the shocking allegations during a custody battle. But within the file, the one that he encouraged people to access, were photos of their two-year-old daughter including one in which she was totally nude.

Moreno's father, the Republican Senator Bernie Moreno, is now calling for arrests.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE MORENO (R-OH): Sunday, when he went out and did what he did, including releasing photos of my granddaughter completely naked, that now you have hundreds of thousands of psychotic human beings that have that and to say, oops, is grotesque.

My personal opinion is that this is a felony and that every single human being that touched that photo and transmitted it electronically should go to jail because it is illegal to do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: So, we at CNN have reached out to Congressman Miller's lawyer and spokesperson for comment about Senator Moreno's remarks. That image of the nude two-year-old girl has since been removed. And today, Miller's attorney took responsibility.

In a statement to CNN, he said this, quote, "Unfortunately, I missed the last three pages of a 40-plus page document with sensitive content. It was completely unintentional and a mistake. The moment I discovered the issue on Monday morning, I corrected the file immediately," end quote.

So, I just want to take a moment to recognize and remember that, setting aside the reality, the fact that this story involves politicians and yes, it has political implications, there is a child at the heart of all of this. And there is another story that Senator Moreno told today that really drives that point home.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MORENO: So I meet him at the Bay Village Police Station because that's the place that we have to go to meet because I don't know what this guy's capable of. She comes over, gets in our car, we drive away, and if anybody is a parent, she has a little blue bunny that she sleeps with. Max would not hand over the little blue bunny, literally held it hostage for 48 hours.

This girl is crying at night because she can't sleep without her little blue bunny. His answer is, I'm just not going to give it to you. So finally, yesterday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, yesterday, he lets the little blue bunny go. This is the level of total and complete depravity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: All right, let's get off the sidelines, head into THE ARENA.

My panel is going to be here to weigh in, but we're going to start with chief congressional correspondent Manu Raju.

So, Manu, you were in contact with Congressman Max Miller earlier today. What are you learning?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, I asked him about President Trump's phone call earlier in the day on Monday and whether or not he had urged Max Miller to resign from that House seat, given the level of concern among Republicans in particular, that all this controversy surrounding him could be enough to doom what had been once a safe Republican seat.

And he told me that, quote, "never" has Donald Trump asked him to drop out of that House race, and he contended that they had a conversation yesterday morning but that issue calling on him specifically to drop out was not something that the president himself brought up.

Now, a number of other Republicans believe that it is in fact time for him to step aside not just because of these serious allegations but because of a very difficult midterm election environment that they and worried that all of this could mean a safe seat could go from red to blue.

[16:05:13]

Now, one senator I did just catch up with is the majority leader of the United States Senate, and I asked him about the specific concerns, what you just heard from Senator Bernie Moreno, a member of Senate Majority Leader John Thune's conference, and whether or not he agrees with what Moreno is saying, that Max Miller is not fit to serve in Congress.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: One of the members of your conference, Senator Bernie Moreno, is publicly calling on Max Miller's former son-in-law to resign from Congress amid these allegations. Do you side with Senator Bernie Marino and should Max Miller resign?

SEN. JOHN THUNE (R-SD), MAJORITY LEADER: I'm just -- one, it's a very sad and unfortunate case. It is a family matter, and I just -- I don't have any observations beyond that.

Those decisions on the future there are going to be made ultimately by the people of Ohio. And I think that's true. And I would say that of any similar case.

(END VIDEO CLIP) RAJU: Now, when I asked Miller whether or not all this pressure could force him to resign, he told me, quote, nothing has changed, indicating that he very much plans to continue to run for reelection. And time is of the essence because if he were to drop out of his race in the coming days, there would be a process to replace him on the ballot. Otherwise, he will be on that November ballot, which is why the pressure campaign is beginning to ratchet up by minute by minute.

But one thing to watch here is this House Ethics Committee investigation that was just announced this afternoon. He urged -- Miller himself urged that ethics probe to take place the committee confirmed that it is investigating Max Miller and his conduct but it is unlikely Kasie that that will be wrapped up before the November election -- Kasie.

HUNT: Yeah. All right. Manu Raju for us on Capitol Hill.

And, Manu, of course, we should note that Max Miller is going to be on the air with our colleague Jake Tapper here in just a few short minutes.

All right. My panel is now here in THE ARENA. White House correspondent from "Bloomberg", Jeff Mason; CNN political director and the Washington bureau chief, David Chalian; former Pentagon deputy press secretary under President Biden, Sabrina Singh; and Republican strategist, Shermichael Singleton. They're both CNN political commentators.

Welcome to all of you. Thank you so much for being here.

David Chalian, this is, of course, in the press because Max Miller is running for Congress and potentially putting the seat that he holds in jeopardy Can you kind of lay the groundwork for us in terms of what is at stake politically? Like, what does the district look like? Might he lose this race, might he not?

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR AND THE WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF: Yeah, first of all, you have to separate out the human from the politics.

HUNT: Yeah, we're going to get to the human of it.

CHALIAN: No, no, I'm just saying, I am taking your question, but like, listening to all of that is so difficult. But it is like an R plus five district, so it's a Republican-leaning district. But in this political environment, Kasie, as you know, an R plus five district is one that could be competitive this cycle, given where Donald Trump's approval rating is, given how competitive the top of the ticket races are in Ohio, the governor's race there and the Senate race there, where Sherrod Brown is trying to make a comeback, are extraordinarily competitive races.

And so, what you have in this Miller district is a district that Republicans would like to sort of put off the map right now, and this complicates them doing that in this political environment. HUNT: Yeah. So, the reason I want to start with you there is just

because what this has become is a question of doing -- potentially doing the right thing, or what does a human being do when something so terrible is playing out in the face of politics that are putting pressure on people involved to say -- I mean, John Thune there with Manu wouldn't say what he should do here, right? He said, even in the face of what his own member of his Republican Congress.

I mean, Bernie Moreno, senator, father of Emily Moreno, the ex-wife from the situation, has gone so far as to say that Max Miller should resign, not just that he should get off the ball, that he should resign.

CHALIAN: That he's not qualified to serve.

HUNT: And that he's not qualified to serve in the House. And you have John Thune, who's the leader of the Senate Republican Conference, who, you know, is someone who has to work with the president, who reportedly currently has a little bit of tension going on with President Trump, won't say -- won't back him up in that kind of context because of the politics of this.

Like, what does that say about where we are?

CHALIAN: Well, I mean, it doesn't say anything good, obviously. And it says sort of, you know, power -- maintaining power on top of all things is sort of a creed in Washington. And that has been true longer ago than just this story and this week.

I do think, though, it is no sure thing that Max Miller may, if he stays in this race as he pledges, he's going to do, he could very well be reelected to Congress. It's no sure thing that just because this scandal is plaguing him right now that it's going to be a definite flip for the Democrats.

So, he very well may be reelected to Congress if he sticks through this race.

[16:10:01]

HUNT: Yeah. Sabrina Singh, I mean, I keep going back to the image of this blue bunny. You know, I mean, I think any parent sitting at this table, we have a couple of parents here, knows honestly, the fear of leaving the stuff behind, it's a very real family vacation fear. I don't know, David, if you've encountered this, but I'm constantly -- I wish I had been smart enough to do that and just rotate them. I have some parent friends who do that.

But I think it really just puts into perspective -- and obviously, these are allegations that the senator has made about Max Miller's actions. We at CNN have reached out to Max Miller's team, as we noted at the top of the show, to get their response to what Senator Moreno said.

But it really throws into sharp relief kind of the stakes of all of this. And it's really -- I mean, the realities of it are heartbreaking. And to have the politics layered on top of this, I mean, what do you see here? I mean, Democrats grappled with something similar in Maine. It didn't have to do with a child, but, you know, Graham Platner was facing an accusation of, you know, for sexual assault, essentially. And he ultimately was forced to step aside.

SABRINA SINGH, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS COMMENTATOR: Well, I think you said it at the beginning quite well, is that at the heart of this entire scandal controversy is a child whose life is being upended. And I think what you saw the senator speak to earlier today was he wasn't speaking as a senator. He was speaking as a father and trying to protect his daughter, trying to protect his granddaughter.

And the fact that, you know, if this is true that we're arguing over a which of course is, you know, a child's-like safety blanket, you know, and these allegations are just going to plague Republicans everywhere they go. I think he just -- Max Miller becomes a distraction for the Republican Party, and that's why you're seeing more calls for him to step down.

Now, actually, interestingly enough, it's not actually coming from the Republicans who did call for someone like Graham Plattner to resign or someone like Eric Swalwell, and they did. But I think the real question that Republicans are going to have to make, and particularly the NRCC, because of all the points that David makes, this is a seat that could be in play. Is the NRCC going to spend on someone like Max Miller this cycle?

HUNT: They're going to have to make that decision.

Let's watch a little bit more from Senator Bernie Moreno, who, again, it's his daughter and granddaughter, who is at the center of this set of allegations toward his former son-in-law, Max Miller. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MORENO: This is truly the seventh level of hell. This has been a horrific experience for my entire family. My daughter lives in constant fear of this man. Not like something that's existential, but deeply in her heart, she fears what this guy is capable of. You can't fathom what that makes me feel like when the dad's number one job is to protect your kids.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: And I think it's worth noting, too, that Senator Moreno, people have been raising questions about why he had not spoken out publicly about Miller. This has been an ongoing custody battle, and these allegations have -- some of them have been out there for a while.

This is what our reporting says about this, quote, "Moreno wanted to speak out against Miller months ago. but was asked by his daughter not to, according to two sources familiar with the situation. One source close to the senator said that Moreno's daughter Emily didn't want the couple's daughter reading about her grandfather attacking her dad one day. That person said the senator felt he could no longer be silent after Miller on Sunday posted a roughly 20-minute livestream in which he said his ex-wife had significant mental health challenges."

Jeff Mason, we are also reporting that the president has privately raised concerns that he could lose the seat over these allegations, but has not yet publicly called for him to step down. What is the White House thinking?

JEFF MASON, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, BLOOMBERG: Well, and he was asked about it yesterday in the Oval Office when the pool was in there, and he did sort of the same kind of dodge that Senator Thune did and said that it was a family matter, and he also said that he knew Max Miller to be a good person. So, he -- he was not jumping in with either a moral or even yet a strong political argument, which I think is interesting.

And also interesting the contrast between how Democrats handle personal crises like this compared to Republicans, at least in these two examples. But so far, clearly the politics is at the top of his list or the -- at the top of his head and but there are reasons as everyone here has already said for them to think about whether those politics are now in jeopardy.

HUNT: Brief last word, Shermichael. Should he resign?

SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Oh, absolutely, he should resign.

[16:15:00]

I have no reason to doubt Senator Moreno's thoughts about his former son-in-law. As a husband, as a father to a daughter, I don't think any father would make up lies about what his daughter has told him. I don't doubt him at all. That said, shorts are plus five district, you can replace this guy, Kasie.

It doesn't make sense at all for the NRCC to spend $15 million, $20 million to save a seat with a guy who's very evidently morally bankrupt. It's just not necessary. It doesn't speak volumes about our party. And I know most Republicans or good conservative people would never, particularly in the South, would never want somebody like this to represent them.

And so, in my opinion, my advice, cut our ties now, allow the local officials there to find somebody else to replace him.

HUNT: All right. Coming up next here in THE ARENA, we've got new reporting coming in on what some of the nation's top military commanders say the U.S. is running out of because of the war with Iran. We're going to talk about that with a key member of the Foreign Relations Committee, Senator Chris Coons.

Plus, a key vote moves Todd Blanche one step closer to becoming attorney general, thanks to a last-minute deal with some Republican holdouts.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CORY BOOKER (D-NJ): It's hard for me to say this as a plant-based guy, but where's the beef? Where's the beef? This is ridiculous.

We got nothing. No guarantees whatsoever that this slush fund still can't go forward. We got nothing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:20:51]

HUNT: All right, breaking news just into CNN on what is a dire warning coming from some of the nation's top military commanders. Sources now say that the U.S. has gone through a dramatically high amount of a key weapon in just the past six months during the war with Iran.

CNN senior national security reporter Zach Cohen is a part of the team that is behind this reporting.

So, Zach, what are you and our colleagues learning?

ZACHARY COHEN, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Yeah, Kasie, we're told that the US military has actually burned through more of its stockpile of key munitions than we previously thought. And it's prompting senior military commanders to issue warnings that those levels, those inventory levels are now dangerously low. That was a quote from one of the sources to me, Jim Sciutto and Haley Britzky.

And look specifically, we're told that 80 percent of the U.S. stockpile of interceptors for a key air defense system known as THAAD, that those have been used up during the Iran War so far, just in five months of this conflict. I mean, that's a staggering number. That's higher than the percentage that we had believed was true just weeks ago, where it was more around 60 percent.

But that is an important system because it's the primary means, along with the Patriot missiles, that the U.S. is able to counter and take down ballistic missiles. And it's not just used by the U.S. military, it's also used by some of its key allies, including some in the Middle East, namely Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates.

And so, we're also to those staggering low number of THAAD left in the U.S. stockpiles, that the U.S. has also gone through 50 percent of its Patriot interceptors. And to put that in perspective, the U.S. had about 2,000 Patriot missiles in its inventory before the war started. It has about half that number now.

And so, we've known that this is a concern that's been raised by General Dan Caine, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, in these meetings with President Trump, where they've discussed options for potentially escalating the conflict. We know that Gulf countries in particular have voiced concerns also about how this stockpile shortage might impact their ability to defend themselves against Iranian retaliation if Trump does move forward with some sort of an escalation.

So, this is an important threat to watch and one that's been a persistent concern for weeks now. HUNT: All right, Zach Cohen with that reporting for us -- Zach, thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Joining us now to discuss, Democratic Senator Chris Coons of Delaware, who sits on the Foreign Relations Committee.

Senator, thank you so much for being here in THE ARENA.

I want to first start with that reporting that Zach just laid out there about the level to which these stockpiles have been depleted. What are the implications in your view?

SEN. CHRIS COONS (D-DE): Well, Kasie, thanks for a chance to be on again. The implications of a real challenge to what's called our magazine depth or the number of our precision strike missiles and our interceptors is that it weakens the United States. It weakens our hand in being prepared to defend our treaty allies in the Western Pacific, to defend our homeland, and to defend our critical allies and partners in Europe and the Middle East.

This is not a new problem. We have had challenges with procuring these expensive, exquisite munitions for a long time. Last year's appropriations bill, where I'm the senior Democrat for defense appropriations, we authorized multi-year procurement of several key munitions and moved billions of dollars into those lines.

Frankly, when the president chose to launch a war of choice more than five months ago in the Middle East, One of the challenges I am certain that his senior military advisors briefed him on was that the Iranians were going to launch thousands of cheap, lethal drones at our facilities, our bases, our embassies, and our allies and partners, and we would use incredibly expensive, exquisite, and rare munitions to intercept them or to defend against them with counterstrikes.

So, this is a challenge we have faced for some time. Countries like Iran have learned how to make drones that cost relatively little, and we are still using very expensive munitions to stop them.

HUNT: I want to also get your reaction to some of the events that have been unfolding in the last 24 hours around the Attorney General nominee Todd Blanche.

[16:25:03]

So, Senators Thom Tillis and John Cornyn were, of course, holding this up. It is now through the committee. I want to play for you what your colleague Senator Cornyn said today about why, and we'll talk about it. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R-TX): Given this agreement with Mr. Blanche, I expect the department to live up to this in future litigation, and I will vote to advance him out of the committee today.

SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): It's done. It's been rescinded, and I am satisfied.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: John Cornyn, Senator Cornyn also said, "Well, there's nothing we could do to rein in the president when he said he likes the fund and wishes that he still exists, but the fact of the matter is it's dead, and that's all we could do under these circumstances."

Was it all that they could do?

COONS: No, it's not all that they could do. Look, Senator Cornyn is a seasoned and experienced lawyer, a former judge and attorney general, and he served on this committee for many years.

This is an agreement between two parties. And in order to amend that final settlement agreement, there has to be a binding modification to that agreement.

So, the crazy thing all of this case so I can put it in plain language for your viewers is that President Trump sued his own government. He sued his own government for $10 billion and then in an unprecedented settlement, there was an agreement to create a $1.8 billion weaponization fund, which I'll just call a slush fund, that President Trump is eager to use to pay for those who assaulted police at the Capitol on January 6th or to pay for his own supporters who felt aggrieved by the legal actions of the previous administration.

Another key piece of this that Senators Cornyn and Tillis and many of us on the committee also raised alarms about was this settlement gives President Trump his family and their businesses essentially carte blanche from future IRS audits or IRS liability. And if we know one thing about President Trump, it's that he's a tax cheat.

So frankly, to have accepted at face value this signed statement by Todd Blanche, rather than demanding that this be either in statute or in a binding agreement to both parties, invites President Trump, who still says as recently as this weekend that he wants this weaponization fund and he wants this IRS get out of jail free card. as soon as Blanche is confirmed, to just go ahead and direct him to reverse it, to withdraw this piece of paper.

So, this is not a binding or permanent resolution by any stretch.

HUNT: Yeah, Gavin Newsom, the California governor, said this, "Congress is dead. MAGA has a king. Republicans killed the Constitution. If we don't win in November, democracy in America is over."

Is he right?

COONS: That's a little more dramatic than I think is accurate. We still have a Constitution. We will still have an election this fall.

But his level of alarm is completely appropriate. Frankly, the Republicans in the Senate keep letting Trump get away with things over and over and over. And that's why we need a Democratic majority in the United States Senate.

HUNT: So one question about the Democratic majority in the Senate is potentially going to begin to be answered tonight when Michigan Democrats go to the polls and choose between Abdul El-Sayed and Haley Stevens in the primary there. Now, you, of course, have endorsed Stevens but the progressive base of the Democratic Party has a lot of energy behind it. Do you think that that energy is being channeled in a way that makes it more likely that Democrats are going to win the Senate or less?

COONS: Well, we'll see look tonight's elections in many states will choose between different candidates. Of course, it's important that we've got folks in the Democratic Party among our primary electorate who are really ticked off about Donald Trump and what he's been doing.

I think they're focusing their anger at the wrong target at establishment Democrats. rather than at the Republicans who are letting Donald Trump get away with this stuff. In the minority, our ability to change the direction of the country is limited. But I understand that anger and why it's being focused at some candidates.

I've known Haley Stevens for several years. I've never met Abdul El- Sayed, and so I'll be watching the outcome of tonight's primary election in Michigan as well as several other states.

What matters to me most is that we elect in our primaries people who can win in the general. And so, we'll see whether that is --

HUNT: Can El-Sayed win the general?

COONS: I don't know. I'm not from Michigan.

[16:30:00]

COONS: But at the end of the day, as you know, Kasie --

HUNT: You're a smart political observer.

COONS: Yeah, I have campaigned across Michigan. I'll say this, about the election that took me to Michigan to campaign with and for Elissa Slotkin, excuse me, it was achingly close. I think Senator Slotkin won by 14,000 votes, and it's the same opponent.

This is a very purple state, and it will be a close and difficult election. So, whoever wins the Democratic primary tonight has an important job, and that's to bring the party together and to win support to go into the fall elections. The governor of Michigan, the departing senator, my friend Gary Peters, the former senator Debbie Stabenow, all endorsed Haley Stevens.

So, it's largely because of her record fighting for the auto industry that I endorsed her. And we'll see what happens tonight in Michigan and in Minnesota and in Virginia and in several other key states.

HUNT: Indeed, we will. Senator Coons, thank you very much. Always appreciate your time, sir.

COONS: Thank you, Kasie.

HUNT: See you soon.

All right. Coming up next here in THE ARENA, more on the most expensive Senate primary for Democrats this year. It's about to pay off for someone inside the final hours of the high-stakes Michigan race and what the candidates are saying just before polls close.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Can you really see yourself standing with him, whether he's campaigning for you or you're campaigning for him going into the fall? Are you going to be comfortable doing that?

REP. HALEY STEVENS (D), MICHIGAN SENATE CANDIDATE: I've had a blast in this primary.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:35:52]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would like to see the Democrats move more towards their own policies. you know, less towards the middle, more towards being more aggressive like the Republicans are.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't want somebody in somebody else's pocket that they have to agree to what they want to. You know, too many people like that in politics.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Overall change in people who had an independent view and thought process of what's right for the voters, not what's right for corporate PACs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: All right, right now, voting underway in primaries across the country, including in that Democratic Senate primary in Michigan that's set to shape one of the most important races in the 2026 midterm cycle.

Progressive Abdul El-Sayed facing off against the more moderate Congresswoman Haley Stevens in what is the biggest test of progressive power so far this cycle. Both candidates making their final pitch about why they are the fighter that voters should send to Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVENS: There is a reason why Republicans are already spending thousands and thousands of dollars meddling in this primary, trying to maybe get their preferred candidate. Look, when it comes to Michigan, I run through anyone and anything to stand up for us.

EL-SAYED: We're willing to do that thing that democracy is built on, which is having the conversations eye to eye with your neighbor about who we are and who we want to be, what we want for our America. You can't buy that. You can't buy inspiration.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: All right, joining our panel here in THE ARENA, former senior advisor, policy director for the Bernie Sanders presidential campaign, Josh Orton. And the rest of my panel is also here, of course.

Josh, thank you so much for coming here into THE ARENA.

I want to start with you just because this is, of course, going to be looked at, what happens tonight as a test, a statement about the power of the progressive movement inside the Democratic Party, or maybe outside the Democratic Party. Maybe I'm even framing that wrong.

What do you think, as someone who's been part of the movement, who worked for Bernie Sanders, what do you think tonight could say about what that means? What should we be taking away from whatever the result may end up being?

JOSH ORTON, FORMER SENIOR ADVISOR & POLICY DIRECTOR FOR THE BERNIE SANDERS PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: Yeah, thanks, Kasie.

Look, I think voters in Michigan and across the country see a drastic power imbalance in the country. They're living through an oligarchy. They see the president making $2 billion on crypto. They see the Supreme Court bought out. They see data centers being built in their backyard with no say whatsoever.

And I think what they're looking for is someone who has a theory about that power, that there are corporations and billionaires who have far too much power and special interests, and you see $50 billion flooding into this race. And they're looking for something who, looking for someone who sees that the way they do.

If this was the zombie apocalypse, right, Abdul's showing up with a shotgun and Haley Stevens is saying, look, I've been among the zombies, and I would be better at convincing them to be nice to you. This is -- that's how they're hearing this.

And so, I think the establishment in the party and elsewhere needs to realize the amount of anger and that it's not any about any one specific issue. It is about this gigantic disparity of power.

HUNT: That is it's very, very evocative, that image of the zombies. I guess the question here Josh and this is, of course, what I'm going to let Sabrina Singh who has worked on you know a number of campaigns that ran against Sanders get in on this, too, but one of the -- if not the argument -- I take your point about voters anger. The argument about why the establishment maybe is the choice that Democrats who are angry about the status quo should make is that it's a purple state and Abdul Al-Sayed might not be palatable to voters in a general election. I mean, what it -- if he loses, if Democrats end up with not 51 seats

or not 50 seats in the Senate in the fall, not 51 I guess because they -- the vice president's Republican, if they if they end up with not enough seats to take the Senate because Abdul El Syed can't keep Michigan blue, what's the lesson?

ORTON: Well, I think I would make an argument that there's just as much, if not more, danger that Haley Stevens would lose in a general election.

[16:40:02]

And I think the point is that people are seeing this moment in explicitly partisan terms. And what I would argue is that this is less about partisan politics and more about what people are seeing of who is in control of our economy and our country and who is under the thumb of that control.

And I would argue that someone like Haley Stevens going into a general election does not have an argument about that, and it would be harder to express what she stands for in standing up to that power.

Abdul has a theory of power. He talks about taking on corporations, he talks about Medicare for All. The question is not whether someone is hard Democrat or soft Democrat or within the party, without the party. The question is, can they articulate what they stand for, do they have a theory of power, because people are under the thumb?

HUNT: All right. Sabrina, you worked for President Biden, you worked for the Vice President Kamala Harris. What do you say about how this race could play out and what it means?

SINGH: Well, I think Josh has a good point in that it is about tapping into something into the base, that you inspire someone in the base to go out and vote for you and rally around you. I think Haley Stevens, though, is the more attractive candidate for a general election.

At the end of the day, as we've talked about many times on this show, Michigan is a purple state, and I think S.E. Cupp asked in the chat, where to the voters go if El Sayed wins the primary. Where do they go in the general?

And I think Democratic voters are going to have -- and Republicans and independents are going to have to make a choice between potentially El Sayed or Mike Rogers. And that's why you see so many people rallying on Haley Stevens.

HUNT: So, David Chalian, you can show us why it is that this focus is here, right? Like, why this one seat matters so much. Take us through it.

CHALIAN: Yeah. So this is the state of play as the United States Senate currently exists, 53 Republicans, 47 Democrats here. And as you all know, Democrats would need to gain four Republican seats to win the majority. They would need 51. How do they do that? Well, the very first thing they have to do is

protect what they have already. So that would be Georgia, New Hampshire, and the state we're talking about, Michigan. The math become four states, flipping four states is an uphill climb for Democrats.

HUNT: Huge.

CHALIAN: If they were to lose Michigan, maybe because what you guys are saying, a nominee emerges who isn't as palatable in a general election and Rogers flips that state, the map becomes exponentially harder for Democrats. Where do they go to find their flips? Well, you look at a place like North Carolina would be one, Maine would be another. That's the only state on the map that Harris won that they're playing in.

HUNT: Right.

CHALIAN: And then you have to go into double-digit Trump territory. So, then you're talking about a place like maybe Ohio or Iowa, those four would do it, but again, Democrats would have to hold all of their own. Texas, Alaska, also in Democratic sights.

HUNT: Right. Stakes are incredibly enormous, I have to say.

All right, Josh Horton -- Josh Orton, excuse me, thank you so much for coming by. I hope you'll come back. It's great to have you.

The rest of our panel is going to stand by. Ahead here in THE ARENA, new reporting on what sources describe as an explosive meeting between Donald Trump and Jeanine Pirro at the White House.

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[16:47:35]

HUNT: All right, breaking news just into CNN. We're learning more about President Trump's meeting with the D.C. U.S. Attorney, Jeanine Pirro, after she blamed the reflecting pool damage on shoddy workmanship instead of vandalism.

Let's bring in CNN's Kristen Holmes and Katelyn Polantz. We're also joined by Trump's former lawyer, Bill Brennan.

Kristen Holmes, let me start with you. You and Katelyn are, of course, spearheading our reporting.

So why don't you start on the White House side? Take us through what we've learned about the meeting last night.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kasie, what we've heard is that it was explosive at times, incredibly heated at others. One source telling us that President Trump read Jeanine Pirro the Riot Act, another one saying that he laid into her during this meeting. And the one thing that's really become increasingly clear is the fact that this has really created a huge divide between Jeanine Pirro and her office and that of the Department of Interior and Doug Burgum, the secretary who was also in that meeting.

And I do want to say that picture that you just showed of her wheeling out those boxes, we are told that she arrived at the White House for that meeting knowing President Trump was angry and that she brought her own receipts that this is the evidence in these bags that she says backs up her claims that it was shoddy workmanship that led to what happened at the reflecting pool, not vandalism.

Now President Trump has been angry at her publicly. He's been angry at her privately. We obviously just reported what he did in that meeting, but he did stop short of actually asking her to resign or of actually firing her.

And lot of sources who are close to both of them that know the relationship, they say that her job is likely safe for now. They look at this years-long friendship, but this isn't going away. And this divide between these two agencies is not going to get any smaller. On one side, you have the Department of Interior who feels like they were blindsided by Pirro, not just because of the case.

We know that Katelyn will report this as well, that Pirro had briefed members at Department of Interior that this was coming, that they were going to drop these charges, but really the fact that she laid out so clearly these details of how it was vandalism -- it was not vandalism. It was shoddy workmanship, instead of vandalism.

That blindsided both the White House and the Department of Interior and you're seeing a lot of blame being cast on each side here.

HUNT: Yeah. So, Katelyn, how did this dismissal of this case like how did that all go down inside Pirro's office and what's the mood over there?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: The mood there is that Jeanine Pirro is standing behind her prosecutors, including the career prosecutor that signed this filing and put the Interior Department on blast for not being forthcoming with the U.S. attorney's office when it was first seeking to indict David Hearn right around the 4th of July.

[16:50:15]

They hadn't given them all of the record. And in fact, the U.S. attorney's office believed they had everything from Interior and ultimately realized later they did not. Pirro, she's personally involved in this case. This was coming out quite a bit in the reporting that Kristen and I and others were getting today on how this went down.

Pirro herself made the call to dismiss the case against the ex- Olympian, and she also had talked to the White House and the Justice Department officials about the fact that her office could not keep pushing this case forward, that they had to drop it against Davey Hearn and then against three others who were facing misdemeanors related to the reflecting pool. In the office, there is a lot of concern that this episode, this fight

that Jeanine Perro is picking, that it could end with damage to the division of her U.S. attorney's office that primarily prosecutes violent crime. They are the ones that go before the local court and the prosecutor on this particular case that achieved this dismissal, he is a prosecutor that's been there for a very long time, very well respected by Pirro herself and others in the office, and is leading the team that prosecutes thousands of violent crime cases at the D.C. Superior Court on a daily basis, really the engine of that office.

So, there's a lot of concern, but there still is a lot of appreciation and support in the U.S. attorney's office for Jeanine Pirro putting in her in such an odd position because of the politics of this.

HUNT: Yeah. So, Bill Brennan, I mean, how do you understand this as someone who knows Trump, who's been his lawyer? He clearly was blindsided by this, not something that he likes. Obviously, Pirro knows that President Trump likes to see the paper. She carted all the evidence in there, but she still has her job.

What does it all tell you?

WILLIAM J. BRENNAN, FORMER TRUMP ATTORNEY: Well, I mean, it's no secret that the president wears his emotions on his sleeves. You know, he's a hot-headed guy sometimes, but he blows up and he gets over and he listens to reason.

You know, I said yesterday, it's a great day for justice. And, you know, it sounds like a little bit Pollyanna-ish, but, you know, it really is a great day for justice when the U.S. attorney sees that a case is really a case that shouldn't have been bought. And instead of putting the defendant through a trial and maybe losing it on a Rule 29, which is a motion defense lawyers file at the end of a prosecution's case, saying, judge, taking all the evidence and testimony in the light most favorable to the government, this case just can't be won. That would be a tremendous embarrassment, tremendous -- tremendously unfair to Mr. Hearn.

She made a judgment call. She's a leader, she's a former judge, former prosecutor in New York, and you really should be applauded for doing the right thing.

The other collateral benefit to this is -- you know, her office is prosecuting very serious violent crimes, murders, assaults, rapes in that district. And she, I would predict, won the respect of her career prosecutors that, you know, they inherited her, so to speak, when the president appointed her. But it means a lot to the rank and file when the U.S. attorney stands behind them.

So, I think the president will get over this. I think she was very, very smart to bring her, if that's what was in those boxes, her evidence in, because he likes to see data, and I think this blows over, and she did the right thing, and she should be applauded.

HUNT: So, Jeff Mason, I mean, part of why, of course, this is such an emotional -- well, explain to us why this is such an emotional thing for President Trump, this reflecting pool issue.

MASON: Well, let's start from the beginning. He said that he was going to get somebody in, because he's a contractor, and that's his background, and he likes to build things, and get it done quickly for less money than anybody else possibly could have, and it would have gotten -- would have been done in time for the July 4th 250th celebrations. That didn't happen, so it's made him look bad on that instance.

Number two, he absolutely found a scapegoat, and that scapegoat has now been taken away by his own supporter, who also, before she changed course, went out and blamed vandals, and pretty publicly and pretty vociferously.

But there is an absolute difference between what you can say in terms of rhetoric to the public, on social media, to the press, versus what you can prove in court. And that's the -- that's the standard.

HUNT: That difference was on display here.

MASON: That she came up to.

HUNT: Indeed.

All right. Thanks to all of you.

We'll be right back.

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HUNT: All right. Thanks to my panel. Really appreciate all of you being here.

And thanks to you at home for watching as well.

I do have one thing to share before we go. With less than 100 days until the 2026 midterm elections, my colleague David Chalian and I are going to be hosting an interactive Q&A at 10:30 a.m. Eastern on all the major themes that we're watching ahead of these critical elections. If you're a CNN subscriber, you can stream the experience exclusively on the CNN app, or you can go to cnn.com/subscriber series where I invite you, submit your questions. You get to choose, and then David and I will read them, and you can have some of those answers.

David, looking forward to seeing you in the morning tomorrow.

We're looking forward to seeing you right here tomorrow as well. But don't go anywhere, "THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER" starts right now.