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CNN's The Arena with Kasie Hunt

Hegseth Cuts 20 Percent Of Top Military Officers As Iran War Continues; NYT: Paxton Told Donors Trump's Convention Hurt His Campaign; Netanyahu: Pilot May Have Tried To Hijack, Crash Israel- Bound Jet. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired September 30, 2026 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:04]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Oh, goodness.

All right. Jarod, thank you for the fact check, Jarod Miller.

And, Boris, those were some really great stories, very rich and compelling.

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN HOST: Yeah, nothing like a miniature Buddha, but yet also covered in hair.

THE ARENA WITH KASIE HUNT starts right now.

(MUSIC)

KASIE HUNT, CNN HOST: Hi, everyone. I'm Kasie Hunt. Welcome to THE ARENA. It's great to have you with us on this Wednesday.

As we come on the air, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth just announced major cuts to Pentagon leadership as he vowed to finish his goal of aligning America's military with his political and cultural agenda.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: We are no longer the woke department or the weak department. Simple translation of that? No fatties, no trannies, no beardos, no weirdos, no wimps, no radicals. Just warriors.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: That kind of intentionally provocative language from the defense secretary is not new. But his announcement of a 20 percent reduction in positions for generals and admirals is. Hegseth describing those cuts as the, quote/unquote, "bare minimum of what he called accountability. The secretary prepared for the speech by exercising with troops at the Pentagon. Their shirts reading, quote, "This is war".

It is worth noting, though, that lately the Trump administration can't seem to agree on whether the Iran War is, in fact, a war. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is a relatively little war for us. This is not a big war.

J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I wouldn't call it a war. Right now, there is no active shooting.

TRUMP: A lot of people don't call it a war. I call it a military conflict because it's -- it's small potatoes for us.

I think the war will end. immediately after the election.

TODD BLANCHE, ATTORNEY GENERAL: You called it a war. I disagree with that characterization, as does most of Congress.

TRUMP: We're going to win that war very soon. That'll be over.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Secretary Hegseth today notably avoided weighing in on whether the Iran war is a war. But he sounded almost obsessed with media coverage of it. Let's remember that while Pete Hegseth is an Army veteran, he's also a former Fox News host. And he owes his position atop the Pentagon in no small part to being -- having been a member of the media that he so loves to hate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HEGSETH: You see, it's your movements and bases that they reveal to the enemy. It's your operations that they jeopardize when they leak classified capabilities. And ultimately, it's your lives they put directly at risk when they lie about munition stockpiles. A free press is of course important, but partisan activism that intentionally smears the troops and the historic mission that they're undertaking is fundamentally anti-American.

It's sick. It's a national betrayal. It's treason, actually.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: All right. Let's get off the sidelines, head to THE ARENA.

My panel is here. CNN special correspondent Jamie Gangel; congressional correspondent for "The New York Times", Annie Karni; CNN political commentator and former senior policy advisor in the Obama White House, Ashley Allison; and former Republican Speaker Pro Tem Patrick McHenry.

We are also joined by retired Army Lieutenant General Karen Gibson, who previously served as Director of Intelligence at U.S. Central Command.

And, General, thanks very much for being with us. I'd like to start with you on this because Of course, the headline here is that Secretary Hegseth wants to cut 20 percent of these top admiral and general positions.

Can you give us some level of understanding of what impact that's going to have on our forces and our readiness?

LT. GEN. KAREN GIBSON (RET.), FORMER DIRECTOR OF INTELLIGENCE, U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: Sure. So, I think, excuse me, I think it's going to depend very much on where those cuts come from. There could be consolidation of commands in the way that the Army has consolidated its command that looked at North America and South America into one Western Hemisphere command. Some of these cuts could result in some useful efficiencies.

I'm a fan of lean staffs, bloat can get in the way, but we don't have a lot of details where all of them will come from, and I think it's important. It will be important as those details come out to see whether they affect readiness. Does it -- what does it do to the span of control that the remaining generals have? Does it lower oversight for some of the important acquisition initiatives that the secretary is talking about having?

And just really, what does it do to our war fighting capacity? We need to understand where those cuts are coming from to make those assessments.

HUNT: So I want to play for you and for our audience, the things that Hegseth has said during his tenure about the culture of the military and how he thinks it should change. Let's watch that. I'll get your take on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HEGSETH: No more identity months, DEI offices, dudes in dresses. Frankly, it's tiring to look out at combat formations or really any formation, and see fat troops.

[16:05:00]

No more beardos. I don't want my son serving alongside troops who are out of shape, or in combat unit with females who can't meet the same combat arms physical standards as men.

I'm authorizing a new screening program for testosterone deficiency.

We're restoring the warrior ethos inside our department because that matters. At the Department of War, we do training, not trannies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: How much of these cuts do you think is essentially him wanting to eliminate positions for women admirals and generals or for people of color in those positions?

GIBSON: Well, certainly if we're talking about physical fitness, that shouldn't have anything to do with people of color. But when you have one physical standard that you hold people to, women will be at a disadvantage, but certainly there's -- I apologize for that. There should be a minimum standard that troops must meet.

And taking physical fitness tests is something that we always had to do when I was in the military to include twice a year. And we worked hard to eliminate soldiers who were overweight or could not comply with fitness standards.

I'm not sure that this is overtly about pushing out women. And certainly, it should not have an aspect on people of color. But I think a focus on fitness is not as new as he makes it sound.

HUNT: Fair enough.

So, Congressman McHenry, the posture that Hegseth was taking there, I mean, he was saying, going after the media, talking about leaks, putting people in danger. I think it might be worth remembering that the Pentagon pushed. members of the military to participate in a "60 Minutes" interview that actually provided some pretty detailed information about our rescue operations for downed pilots in Iran, something that some people criticized as saying, hey, like, you're giving up too much here, right? And that's coming from the Pentagon itself.

I mean, how much of this is serious. I mean, is Hegseth a serious leader of the Pentagon?

PATRICK MCHENRY (R), FORMER FINANCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: Well, the president thinks so, and that's how you stay in the job. The Senate confirmed him. That was a dicey and significant first test for the administration. And he's carrying out the president's wishes here and the administration's agenda.

So, the "60 Minutes" interview, much of that was -- and I'll leave it to Jamie to get to the details of it -- but much of that was not new. You'd heard that from the White House and the storytelling about the rescue mission. But the cuts, the question of cuts is, what is this about? Is this a political move, or is it in fact about right-sizing the military so you have less politicals at the top, four stars, three stars, two stars, that become much more of a political apparatus within the department, or the warfighter and recruiting warfighters?

A lot of the rhetoric is about recruiting the warfighters into the military and making sure that we project force and confidence of the force that we have internationally.

HUNT: Some of his rhetoric, some of Hegseth's rhetoric, though, is also around diversity. Let's watch what he has said about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HEGSETH: No more diversity quotas. Diversity is not our strength. Unity is our strength. We got rid of the DEI based social emotional evaluations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: I mean, Ashley Allison doesn't necessarily seem like it's in our national interest to not try to recruit people of all races, ethnicities, et cetera, because we could use all of it.

ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, he talks about leaks. My recollection recalls him being the person that sent the war crimes or war plans on Signal. That's a leak. He's not in the press.

He talks about standards, there have been black admirals, black generals, black women, women of all colors who have been able to meet and supersede those standards. So I don't see why we have to put in these new standards. And then they don't even know what they're doing. They don't know if they want to call it a war or not a war, their inconsistency.

So, everything Pete Hegseth is doing is for the president, and I don't know if it's necessary to keep us safer as Americans, keep our country safer, and to make our military strong. I would like somebody who actually respects the people who decide to commit their life to service and protect my life and all of our lives here, but instead he just degrades them and talks about them so poorly.

But yet, they still say their recruiting numbers are up. So either you want to recruit a lot more folks, you don't want to recruit a lot more folks. I sure wouldn't want to work for somebody that is calling me a fatty, a weirdo, a beard. I don't even know what a beardo is, but like --

HUNT: Fair enough.

JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: J.D. Vance.

ALLISON: Yeah.

ANNIE KARNI, CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: He might be performing for President Trump, and that's why he gets to stay in the job. But I have to say that of all of the Trump administration officials on the Hill, he is deeply unpopular. If you recall, Speaker Johnson sent the House home early because Thomas Massie was going to force an impeachment vote for Hegseth, and a lot of those vulnerable House Republicans would have been happy to vote yes for that, to show some distance from Trump and because they don't like him.

I think that even we've heard regrets from some of the Republican senators who did vote to confirm him into this position.

So, of all the administration officials, no one is disliked on the Hill by Republicans as much as Pete Hegseth.

HUNT: Well, to that point, Jamie, let's watch what Thom Tillis recently had to say about Mr. Hegseth, Secretary Hegseth -- excuse me -- watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): I think I'm pretty well staked out on my assessment of Mr. Hegseth. This is not person -- I mean, people need to realize I worked as a management consultant. I went into companies and identified areas where they needed to improve.

We've got a management problem here. He needs to go, whether it's impeachment or the most expedient route, it's just the president to replace him, it would be great.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Jamie -- and I think the congressman might want to jump in also.

GANGEL: So, first of all, he is not alone. I cannot tell you the number of Republicans on the Hill who have been every day they say, this is the week, he's gone, there is no way he's going to survive.

Some of them actually were jockeying to replace him in -- but it is notable that Secretary Hegseth is not only still on the job, but that the language we heard from him today mirrors what we heard at Quantico, you know, in September, and that, as we say, is for an audience of one: Donald Trump likes him.

MCHENRY: Well, first of all, I have to have the caveat. I'm probably the only one from North Carolina wearing a bow tie. Thom Tillis is the one from North Carolina wearing a bolo tie. So, take all of this with a grain of salt. I'm not one to give fashion advice.

But what is notable on diversity, the language that Hegseth used, still remains the more popular choice among the populace today. There has been a pendulum swing from the very strong DEI, the height of Woke One, as it's being called. And now, the pendulum swung back the other way. It is provocative, the way he describes it. But if you lay that out in public opinion surveys, it is still a significantly more popular position than the DEI woke language that was popular not but four years ago. So, a lot of this is --

KARNI: I've heard from veterans who serve in Congress, like Democrat Pat Ryan from New York, I hear like grave concerns about politicizing the army, politicizing the armed forces like this is, and he, and he has said like we're -- this is generational trauma to the idea that our armed forces are supposed to be nonpartisan and they are really concerned that this rhetoric is doing --

Can I also just --

KARNI: -- damage beyond when Hegseth will be in the book.

It's also what he says was his application of it, removing generals and admirals of color and women, renaming bases, renaming ships that were named after historical folks who gave their life to serving in our military. He is directly attacking people of color and women and putting a facade on it that is to keep us safer and saying the DEI, yes, they had a successful attempt of demonizing DEI, but the reality is his application is erasure of people who want to serve their country and do it very well as well.

GANGEL: Can I just add?

HUNT: Yeah.

GANGEL: Morale within the armed forces, within the Department of Defense, Pentagon, they take such pride in the diversity and how it has worked. Colin Powell used to talk about this all the time.

And if we're talking about making changes based on merit, I just think we need to look back at one of the first people who was forced out was the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, CQ Brown, one of the most respected, you know --

ALLISON: Qualified.

GANGEL: Qualified people out there. And it takes 25-years plus to make a general, to make an admiral. The loss in experience, expertise, brain drain, this is a big concern.

HUNT: Yeah. General Gibson, there's one other thing I wanted to ask you about, since you are, of course, someone who took, you know, the physical fitness tests in the military for many years.

"The Atlantic" wrote about Pete Hegseth's ability to do a push-up. They said this, quote, "Hegseth's push-ups are more like half ups in the ones captured on video he doesn't go through the full range of motion. His substandard technique is ironic because he's on record ridiculing others for their lack of push-up prowess. In his 2024 book, 'The War on Warriors', Hegseth mocks women soldiers who can only do 10 push-ups at a pop and refers to a transgender woman as a 10-push-up kind of guy."

There are also a number of instances of Hegseth doing other exercises on camera. I want to show our audience and you, them, and we can just see, like, is he doing them correctly?

[16:15:05]

Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All the way down, all the way up.

ROBERT F. KENNEDY, JR., HHS SECRETARY: Fifty pull-ups, 100 push-ups. It was President Trump who inspired us --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: I mean, the kettlebell, not so much. The pull-up is like this, not like this. Yes, no?

GIBSON: Well, he's not achieving full extension --

(LAUGHTER)

GIBSON: -- of his arms or of the joints there.

And you know, again, I think every soldier should be fit. That's really important. But his fixation on some specific exercises is not the quality that makes the U.S. military so incredibly lethal and powerful. There are a lot of other things that make a good soldier.

HUNT: All right. Fair enough, retired Lieutenant General Karen Gibson, so grateful to have you on the show. Thanks very much for being here.

All right. The rest of our panel's going to stand by. Coming up next here in THE ARENA, this could be awkward. New audio out today of what Ken Paxton told donors about President Trump behind closed doors just as the two men prepared to campaign together tomorrow.

Plus, what the president is saying today about why he thinks Republicans are facing an uphill battle in the midterms.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm going out because nobody's selling it. We're doing an extremely poor job of promotion and an extremely great job of running the country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:21:22]

HUNT: You might remember that moment from the Republican midterm convention in Dallas earlier this month for Texas Senate nominee Ken Paxton. was the butt of a couple of jokes from President Trump. Now, "The New York Times" is reporting that Paxton seems to think that the whole convention, which was meant to gin up GOP enthusiasm ahead of November, didn't end up really helping much at all. In leaked audio that was obtained by "The Times", Paxton said this when asked, quote, "Do you feel like he's, Trump, a little bit of a drag?"

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

KEN PAXTON (R), TEXAS SENATE CANDIDATE: So, to be honest with you, the numbers -- when we did that convention -- it dropped our numbers. Everybody's numbers dropped. Right now, yeah, not good.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

HUNT: Not good.

In a statement to CNN and Paxton's campaign downplayed the remarks, they wrote this, quote, "This is more manipulated nonsense from 'The New York Times' to create a story that doesn't exist. Our latest poll from the last week has Ken Paxton leading by three points, and every serious pollster will tell you that our numbers have improved since early September. Ken Paxton is going to win this race, and he looks forward to closing strong alongside President Trump when he comes to Texas this week."

Congressman McHenry, the assessment that they offered right there, the Paxton campaign, does not seem to be shared, certainly by the Democrats I talked to privately, who, while they are not necessarily eager to crow about Texas having been burned in recent cycles, will also tell you that their data is actually showing them winning in a way that it never did with Beto O'Rourke or with Colin Allred or some of these others.

But let's watch what Karl Rove had to say about this, okay? Former George W. Bush strategist and, of course, longtime Texan. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KARL ROVE, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: If John Cornyn were the nominee, this race would be over. You know, when you got a guy who's got multiple girlfriends and $200,000 worth of improvements in his house from a corrupt business guy for whom he does favors. I mean, where can you -- can you make this shit up? I mean, really?

In the last 48 hours, Theodore Cruz has reached out to me and says, "We're losing." Ken Paxton has sent me several emails saying, "I'm losing. I need your help." I mean, even the Republicans are admitting that they're behind.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: I mean, can you make this S-H-I-T up?

MCHENRY: No, you cannot. And Karl knows Texas in and out. He made Texas a Republican state. He willed Texas into being a Republican and is most responsible for Texas being a Republican state.

So -- but what he said here is true. If John Cornyn were the nominee, but John Cornyn made the mistake of running for re-election, even though he's deeply unpopular among Republicans in Texas, you have to first get the nomination before you can go run for general election.

And John Cornyn was the guy who did immigration and guns counter to the interest of Texas Republicans. Texas Republicans didn't like him, so they elected the guy who they knew was a crook or a criminal who is this close to being impeached as attorney general?

HUNT: I mean, what does that say about Republicans in Texas?

MCHENRY: Well, that's its own problem. But the hubris of John Cornyn to run for reelection, even in that face and think he could say it was just -- it's hubris. What happened here? Paxton was made and invented by Donald Trump. It was his savior. It made him, it got him through being impeached as attorney general. It got him the nomination to be senator, Texas senator.

Without Donald Trump, John Cornyn -- like, he's nothing, he's nothing. And this guy is so stupid, he's biting the hand that made him.

HUNT: Which guy? Ken Paxton?

MCHENRY: Ken Paxton.

KARNI: There's a lot of guys that you're referring to right now.

MCHENRY: Well, no, this is a whole waterfall of mistakes here.

[16:25:00]

But Ken Paxton is so stupid that he's biting the hand that made him and invented him, he should say with enormous gratitude that he's grateful for the president, making fun of the way he looks and the way he dresses, as he should, because he wouldn't be even considered for that. At this stage in an election cycle.

So there's a lot to unpack there. But given the panel, given the panel here, I am probably the most pro-Paxton person in this building, and that's what I got for you at this late stage of the game.

HUNT: Well, I mean, I have to say --

MCHENRY: Absolutely astronomically stupid. First order, we will be talking about this. as the one of the dumbest moments in a really bad election site.

HUNT: So, you're -- frankly, everything about what you just said, including your delivery, suggests to me that you think the Ken Paxton. and is never going to be a senator.

MCHENRY: I think he's running up a very deeply weird guy in Texas with Talarico. But I think Talarico is now advantaged because this is clear on display, $125 million from John Thune. It is an uphill battle trying to help somebody who cannot help himself and get out of his own damn way.

ALLISON: I don't want to --

GANGEL: Could I be your anger translator for just one moment?

MCHENRY: Had he just decided after getting the nomination that he would not be seen in public, he would be doing better than his active participation in the campaign.

HUNT: I'm just going to give you the floor. The show's yours.

GANGEL: This feels like the phrase, "Thank you, sir, can I have another?" is what you were saying. I also -- I believe they're campaigning tomorrow. Trump and Paxton together, I would really like to be a fly on the wall when they meet backstage ahead of time.

MCHENRY: I think we'll have a private conversation via President Trump's delivery. And I think it's going to be hilarious to watch. It's going to be great TV.

GANGEL: One number, $20 million ad buy across Texas that Paxton is going to have to do this week, that's $20 million Republicans should not have to be spending in Texas.

MCHENRY: Well, actually, North Carolina is not competitive because that $125 million student is spending in Texas, he could be spending elsewhere in the market.

ALLISON: But also, I mean --

MCHENRY: Sorry.

HUNT: No, please.

ALLISON: The underlying point, though, is that whether Donald Trump can help somebody in Texas, because he's not able to help other people in other competitive states. So, when you look at the map of where he's going, they might not want him in Iowa. He's going to Alabama, I think, because, you know, how competitive is the governor's race in -- with Tuberville. So, they're sending him places where they think he could actually help with that base, that small 30 percent of people who still ride for Donald Trump, who don't turn out regularly for elections. They're hoping he can get those individuals, because that's the only chance that Paxson can get it over there.

KARNI: OK, regardless of Paxson's other preexisting problems, the actual audio that we are here to discuss, he just says what the truth, which is what all Republicans felt about that bizarre midterm convention. Nobody wanted to nationalize this race and make it about Donald Trump when his poll numbers are at a record low. Republicans in competitive races generally stayed away.

No, I mean, it was not going into it, it wasn't seen as particularly helpful. It was Donald Trump making the midterms about himself. So yeah, Ken Paxton stated what we all knew from reporting and from polls to be true, was that that convention was ill-advised to win elections.

MCHENRY: But the specific issue here of Paxton's numbers going down, it's because Texas is learning much more about him. And that is his own problem. The issue for Republicans is that Democrats have already nationalized the election. Donald Trump is on the ballot, whether or not he wants to be or not. And that was the case in 2018. That is the course-correction for this one. And what happened with the midterm convention was modestly more effective and more helpful than not because it energized and solidified a weakened and fractured Republican.

KARNI: That's true.

ALLISON: But Donald Trump is nationalizing --

MCHENRY: That's very helping.

ALLISON: Donald Trump is nationalizing the candidates. He did a PSA paid by tax dollar saying vote like I'm on the ballot. Like he's doing the work for us also because he can't not be the center of attention. Now we can run our race, but he's not helping the candidates by just stepping aside because he doesn't know how to do that.

MCHENRY: There's -- even if he wants to step aside, there are hundreds of millions of dollars your party's raising on his name. So, he should participate and try to help Republicans. That's what he is doing, raising funds and coalescing the base in a midterm where the base coming out can have an impact on dozens of House races that will be cited narrowly, and a Republican map and a map that favors Republicans.

ALLISON: That was their bet in 2022, it didn't work. That was their bet in 2022, it didn't work.

MCHENRY: Joe Biden was not exactly popular, not exactly called for on the campaign stump, not like he is now.

(CROSSTALK)

[16:30:00]

ALLISON: No, in 2022, Donald Trump recruited candidates that ultimately were on the ballot and lost, just like he did with Ken Paxton, like --

MCHENRY: No, I'm talking about --

HUNT: You're talking about 2018?

ALLISON: No, 2022, when there was supposed to be a red wave, and he recruited Oz and Herschel Walker, and what's the woman with the foggy background, Kari Lake.

You know, like, we've seen this story before.

HUNT: Well, and what that ended up happening is that Joe Biden decided to run for re-election because those results.

ALLISON: Well, then, we got another-- that's where --

MCHENRY: That is the historic gift of that '22 election is where that is now. But Biden was not called out in '22 to campaign. This is a midterm problem every president has, but particularly aggrieved because of high prices, inflation, and the cost of living, which is a detriment to the Republican Party, huge benefit to the Democratic Party. They don't have an agenda, but will benefit because they're the out party.

HUNT: Fair enough.

All right. Well, that was fun.

Coming up next year in THE ARENA, inside another Senate race, one of the candidates will be here live. We're going to talk with Montana Independent Seth Bodnar.

But first, new details after officials say a pilot tried to hijack his own flight. But we know about an attempt to take over a commercial flight headed to Israel, including a bloody fight in the cockpit.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:35:38] HUNT: All right, breaking news. We are now getting a look inside the Fly Dubai passenger plane that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says was almost hijacked this morning. The flight took off from Dubai and was headed to Tel Aviv when, Netanyahu says, one of the pilots stabbed the other and appears to have tried to crash the plane. Passengers and crew managed to stop the attacker and take control of the plane, and it was diverted to Saudi Arabia.

Now, we do want to warn you, the video you're about to see is graphic. This video from onboard the plane shows passengers helping a bloodied pilot.

CNN aviation correspondent Pete Munteen joins us now.

So, Pete, the passengers are safe in Tel Aviv now. What are they and officials saying about how this happened and how it unfolded?

Well, we just got this update from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. He has identified the pilot seen in that video, the captain who was apparently stabbed by the first officer. Her name, Smit Machchhar of India. Netanyahu says he was apparently able to open the cockpit door and let hero passengers in who were able to subdue the attacker and also briefly control the plane to get it safely back on the ground, ultimately.

I want to show you the flight track here from FlightRadar24 and it tells this very interesting and very horrific tale for the passengers on board. You could see that track in cyan there. The plane took off from Dubai about two hours into the flight, altitude of 34,000 feet, normal cruising altitude. The plane makes that really steep dive at the right side, then a bit of a climb then a dive again.

The data -- I looked at the granular data, the flight lost about 16,000 feet in less than 30 seconds. The speed increased from about 460 miles per hour to near the speed of sound, 700 miles per hour, which might explain the damage that we saw to the plane after it landed back in Saudi Arabia.

You can see part of the rudder there, that's on the vertical tail, that controls the yaw of the plane, that's the movement of the nose, left and right, a big chunk of it is missing. So, this had a huge impact on the control characteristics of the plane.

I want you to listen now to what one passenger told our Jeremy Diamond at Ben Gurion International Airport in Tel Aviv after another Fly Dubai flight was able to fly these passengers to their ultimate destination. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We just felt the plane drop completely and start spinning a little. And everyone was screaming. There were children crying. And it was just like a death in front of our eyes moment.

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: You saw people kind of rushing down the aisles to get to the cockpit? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah, there was chaos. There were like a few people up front and then someone kept coming and updating us and then they told us that there's a terrorist on board.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MUNTEAN: Now, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is calling this an act of terror, although this does sound a lot like at least attempted or successful suicide by pilot attempts in the past.

There was the Egypt Air crash 990 back in 1999. The flight, the first officer tried to crash the airplane, according to the National Transportation Safety Board.

Of course, you probably remember the Germanwings crash in 2015 when the first officer crashed the airplane into the French Alps after the captain was locked out of the cockpit.

And then of course, there was this Horizon Air incident on the west coast back in 2023 when an off-duty pilot in the cockpit tried to shut down the engines of the plane. The pilot and first officer of that flight were able to subdue him thankfully nobody hurt in that flight, still a lot to come out in the investigation here, Kasie.

HUNT: All right. Pete Muntean for us -- Pete, always great to see you. Thank you very much for that.

All right, we're going to turn back now to Capitol Hill, where Senate Democrats today blocked a GOP-led bill aimed at preventing rising energy costs caused by A.I. data centers criticizing the bill for failing to actually mandate lower prices.

The legislation was a last-ditch attempt by Republicans to pass legislation and show voters that they're tackling affordability ahead of the midterm elections.

Joining me now in THE ARENA is independent Senate candidate from Montana, Seth Bodnar -- Seth, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate your time today.

When we lay that out that Republicans are trying to do something ahead of the elections about A.I. data centers, Democrats are blocking it. It does deny them deny today. When we lay that out that Republicans are trying to do something ahead of the elections about A.I. data centers.

Democrats are blocking it. It does deny them, deny Republicans a political win. Did they do the right thing?

[16:40:02]

SETH BODNAR (I), MONTANA SENATE CANDIDATE: You know, this is the problem. You know, the question that we're asking continuously in Washington, D.C. is, is this good for Republicans or is this good for Democrats? Not nearly enough. Is this good for the country? And that's why we need independent leadership. You know, we have a cost crisis in America right now. Montana families

of all ages struggling to make ends meet, diesel at $6.30 a gallon. Congress needs to take every action it possibly can right now to bring relief for hardworking families across this country.

Forget the political pluses and minuses here for a second. Think about the American people first. That's what we need from Congress right now.

HUNT: So you went viral over the summer for an ad that showed you shooting a Flock camera, which is, of course, one of those cameras that's used by many police departments that track license plates and movements of people. Can you explain why you did this and where you think and why you think people are so angry about these cameras?

BODNAR: Oh, absolutely. I mean, we see -- no one -- no one wants a massive surveillance economy. Big tech companies checking out when we go to the store, when we go to the doctor's office, when we go to church, this surveillance economy and the potential for significant infringement on our constitutional liberties is a big concern for all Montanans, Republicans, Democrats, independents across the political spectrum.

And this was a message Washington, D.C. to say, hey, let's go -- let's get some legislations on the books. We see Democrats supporting this.

We see the Massey Burleson bill. It's a good start. Montana actually made some progress here back in the last legislative session. Washington, D.C. needs to catch up.

HUNT: So I want to put up the latest polling in your race. Now, Montana, of course, has trended as a red state. But of course, Senator Jon Tester was a longtime Democrat who served in the Senate. This is what it looks like now.

There is a Democrat in this race, Alani Bankhead. And the Republican Kurt Alme is, of course, leading with 38 percent here. If you look at that, right, you have a math problem in front of you in terms of trying to win this race. She, of course, the Democrat, did not ultimately drop out, which might have given you a shot here, or a better shot.

So, my question to you is, what do you say to her? Is she making it more difficult for independent leadership, as you've called it, to come here to Washington? Is that hurting the country, what she's doing by staying in?

BODNAR: Look, Montanans, the largest voting bloc here are independents. Montanans are fed up with the status quo. They're fed up with both national parties. They're fed up with a government that's not accountable. The Republican in this race was installed through a last-minute switcheroo that disenfranchised Montana voters.

And what we're trying to do is build a coalition, a coalition of Democrats of Republicans of independents who believe there's a better way. The good news is this. Yes, we're behind in the polls, but we've gained seven points over the past two months.

And when you look at polling that just a little bit of messaging, we're actually in the lead. So yes, would it be easier if the Democrat in this race dropped out? Absolutely. Easier if the Republican dropped out, too.

But this is about giving voice to the common sense majority here in Montana and across this country that's demanding leadership that's accountable, leadership that doesn't just blindly answer to their party, but answers only to the great people of this state. That's the coalition we're building.

We're going to win this race, even with a Democrat and even with a because Montanans are fed up with the status quo. They want change. We're offering an offramp from the toxic partisanship that's ripping this country apart.

HUNT: Are you going to spend money attacking the Democrat here in the final weeks, your campaign?

BODNAR: You know we're going to spend money making -- making the case clear. I mean, the fact is you have a person on the --

HUNT: But are you going to run negative ads -- contrast ads against her?

BODNAR: We're going to run contracts ads. It's important Montanans know what their elected leaders stand for or candidates stand for. I mean, the fact is that the person on the Democratic ticket has some longstanding ties to pretty far-right organizations still being paid by a publishing company that's profiting from books being the call for abortion to be banned.

These things don't add up. We're going to make that contrast clear. We're also going to make the contrast clear with a Republican who will be nothing more than a rubber stamp who just last week said that the job of the U.S. senator when it comes to the Iran war is just to blindly support the president.

That's not what Montanans want. We're going to make this contrast clear between our candidacy and the Republican and the Democrat, and we're going to show a true Montana first path to the United States Senate here.

HUNT: I know you've been pressed on the question of who you would caucus or conference with should you be elected to the Senate?

[16:45:03]

Are you any more clear today than you've been in the past on whether you'll conference with Republicans or caucus with Democrats?

BODNAR: Yeah, I'm crystal clear. I'm not going to caucus with either. And there's nothing in the Constitution, there's nothing in the rules that mandates you have to caucus. In fact, parties are not mentioned at all in the United States Constitution. Senators can get assignments. It's a red herring, this idea that you

can't get on committees. And I tell you what, an independent voice in the United States Senate who says, you know what, I'll work with either party when it makes sense for Montana or to make sense for the United States of America, but also stand up to either party when it doesn't, one independent voice can break the gridlock and bring some common sense solutions to address the many crises that this country is facing.

You just mentioned this failure to pass measures to address the cost of living before people are heading out for the midterms. That's what we need to fix here. That's what an independent can do.

HUNT: All right, Seth Bodnar, thank you very much for spending some time with us today, sir. I appreciate it.

BODNAR: Thanks, Kasie. I appreciate it.

HUNT: All right, hope to see you soon.

Ahead here in THE ARENA, the bot boomerang. What does the government's new A.I. chatbot say about some of the president's most notorious claims? Well, it depends on when you ask it, apparently.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Somebody said, sir, this is going to be the single biggest thing you've done in government. I said, I don't think so. Sir, there's no question this will be the biggest thing you've ever -- if it is the biggest thing I've ever done, I've done a shitty job as president. But you know what? It's damn -- it's damn good.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:51:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: You know what? It's damn, it's damn good. With America.gov for the first time in history, government is offering an experience that matches and in some ways even exceeds the state-of-the-art.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: President Trump was quick to praise the new A.I. chatbot America.gov during its launch. The quote damn good chatbot was quickly put to work by Internet detectives who discovered. that it would debunk some of the president's most infamous claims.

For example, if you searched, quote, did Donald Trump win the 2020 election? It would say no, Joe Biden won the election.

But at some point between last night and this morning, that answer changed. It changed to, quote, "I do not provide political commentary." However, when we checked this afternoon, the chatbot was back to providing detailed answers to these questions.

CNN senior reporter Daniel Dale joins our panel.

Daniel, you have, of course, spent so many years fact-checking President Trump and have been trying to figure out exactly what the chatbot's answers are to these questions. Can you walk us through what your experience has been and how it's changed?

DANIEL DALE, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: Yeah, so yesterday, I started asking the chatbot about many of President Trump's recent false claims, some of which I call out and out lies. So, you talked about the one about the election. I also asked, did Trump inherit the worst inflation of all time? And it flatly said no. And it explained that Trump inherited 3 percent inflation, not even close to the highest of all time.

I asked her things like, did Joe Biden allow 25 million undocumented immigrants to cross the border? Another thing that President Trump frequently says. Again, finally said no, and it provided official data explaining that the real number was much lower.

And so, I went on and on down the list, and it wasn't the best fact checker, I'd say. It provided limited information. Sometimes it was outdated information. It wouldn't venture into anything that was not official federal data or from an official federal document, but it was pretty decent.

But then, it changed this morning. So, I tried again and it would basically not answer any of those questions, claiming that answering even who won the 2020 election was, quote, political commentary that I couldn't get into. So, I sent about writing a story for our website about how the White House had censored, neutered the chatbot to no longer debunk Trump.

And then as soon as it was finished, they changed it again, or it changed again, because I don't know what the heck is going on behind the scenes. And then it started providing even better answers than it did yesterday.

And so, when I asked, was there widespread voter fraud in the 2020 election, yesterday it provided a decent answer. Today it was like more sources, more information about why there was not widespread voter fraud. So how we went from decent to no answers at all to even better answers than the original answers, I have no idea. The White House did not get back to me when I requested comment.

HUNT: And did they explain to you at all, or do we have an understanding of -- you mentioned it's based on government documents, because obviously most of these chatbots have models that are underlying them. I mean, what technology is it using? Do we know?

DALE: I've read other outlets report on that, but I haven't seen us report it. So, I don't want to say because I don't want to be wrong here, but it definitely is based on technology from a company. It's not like the White House's own proprietary thing, of course. HUNT: Right, no, fair enough. I mean, Jamie Gangel, we could go back to, you know, let's watch what happened when a person contradicted the president, or like when -- this is an example where a Senate Democrat tried to get a Trump nominee to contradict the president on the 2020 election claim. And you can see the pressure that the person, like the human being, was under to not acknowledge this. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JON OSSOFF (D-GA): Who won the 2020 election?

JAY CLAYTON, THEN-DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE NOMINEE: I'm not going to do this with you.

[16:55:00]

OSSOFF: Who won the 2020 election?

CLAYTON: Like I said, I'm not going to get into that with you.

OSSOFF: Who won the 2020 election?

CLAYTON: I think I answered the question. We can keep doing this.

OSSOFF: Who won the 2020 presidential election?

CLAYTON: I've answered it.

OSSOFF: Answer the question. Who won the 2020 election?

CLAYTON: I have answered the question.

OSSOFF: Answer it. What is your answer?

CLAYTON: I've given you my answer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Now, the chatbot went back and forth, but it does not have any humanity.

GANGEL: So I think first of all, we got to stick with Daniel Dale for these answers and fact checking. I am so --

DALE: Thank you.

GANGEL: You're welcome.

HUNT: We love you.

GANGEL: I'm so curious what the underlying algorithm, you know, is that had to go back and forth.

HUNT: I guess we'll see if it stays consistent.

All right. Thank you all very much for being here. Really appreciate it.

Thanks to you at home for watching as well. Don't go anywhere.

"THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER" starts after a quick break.