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Van Seized, Two in Custody in Virginia

Aired October 21, 2002 - 11:03   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: We are going to stand by here in Montgomery County and wait for an additional statement from Chief Moose, who did say he is going to come out later and make another statement with the person that he is trying to communicate with -- that police are.
Meanwhile, we want to go back live to Richmond, Virginia, and that's where we find our Ed Lavandera who is standing by with where all of the action was taking place this morning.

Ed --good morning.

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Daryn.

Well, the work continues here at the Exxon gas station. This area has been secured, as authorities here are saying, and now what has happened is the area has been roped off. These tarps have been put over several of the pay phones that are in this Exxon parking lot.

So, this is a very busy part of western Richmond, and there's a lot of traffic that comes through this area, so a lot of traffic being diverted through the area. Of course, now at this point, a lot of onlookers are starting to arrive at the scene.

But we do see quite a large number of authorities here, combing the scene, looking for evidence, clues or anything like that. We saw them taking pictures of several things that were on the ground around where the Plymouth Voyager, a white minivan that was parked just a little while ago.

And when we arrived here on the scene, we had a chance to speak with a gentleman named Keith Underwood, and he actually works at a car dealership just to the left here of the Exxon gas station. And he described what he saw this morning as authorities and the investigators here started making their way in approaching this Exxon gas station this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEITH UNDERWOOD, WITNESS: I know that the police officers' expression was they tried to get into the van a couple of times. They had approached it on the passenger side. They were fully drawn. I was in the building, so I couldn't hear them yelling or screaming or anything, but you could tell they were talking to the guy probably pretty loud.

They kept pulling on the car; it was locked. They would go back into the stance. They pulled it a couple of more times. It finally opened up. They threw the passenger door open. They slid the sliding door open. Their upper bodies went into it, and pulled then him out and immediately stuck him on the ground.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now, was he resisting at all, or did he just kind of go peacefully when they moved in?

UNDERWOOD: He was in -- they had control of him. I didn't see him resisting, no. I mean, he was -- they were pulling him out, and he was coming out. So, no, I didn't see him kicking or fighting them. He went straight from the van to pretty much sitting on his butt on the ground.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What did he look like? Did he kind of meet the descriptions we have been kind of hearing?

UNDERWOOD: I haven't heard any descriptions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he look like a Latino?

UNDERWOOD: Yes, it's possible. There was a lot of cops around.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LAVANDERA: Now, here at the -- just a little while ago, actually probably about an hour ago, the white Plymouth Voyager van was taken away from the scene. When I arrived here on the scene, the minivan was actually parked very closely to the telephone, as you see just behind the white and yellow tarp there. And it almost appeared as if you were sitting in the driver's seat, you could just lean out the window and dial the phone from there.

So, that was the scene. That car was taken away. And of course, as we've been reporting, two people arrested here this morning. They are in the Henrico County jail as we speak.

One person was arrested here at the scene. The other person, we are told by federal law enforcement sources, that was arrested at another location, not exactly sure where, but that arrest took place without incident, and it also took place -- apparently no signs of any kind -- of that person being armed at all.

So, that's the latest from here.

Also, I should mention in about two hours' time, the press briefing here with local, state and federal authorities, although officially, the spokespeople here for the investigators not commenting on what is going to be said publicly at that point in about two hours -- Daryn.

KAGAN: All right, well, certainly when it begins, our viewers will see it live here on CNN.

Ed, in terms of where the second person was taken into custody, we don't even know if we're talking the Richmond area? LAVANDERA: No. But the only point -- what we do know from the sources is that the person that was arrested was arrested in relation to what was happening here. But again, you're right, that could mean anything, and we don't want to go too far based on what we were told by our sources. So, we don't want to stretch it. It's just enough to say that it was a second person that was arrested.

KAGAN: All right, Ed, I think you're done. Someone took the sound out of my ear, so I'm not really sure. But I'm going to take it from there.

Also in Richmond, Virginia today, a man is fighting for his life. This is the 37-year-old man who was shot on Saturday. And this is what drew the attention of this case to the southern part of Virginia, and they are protecting his identity.

He has gone through two surgeries since that shooting took place. Significantly, he is fighting back. He is doing well and hanging on.

Also, the other part -- and this might be a development that we see today, and let me bring Bill Hemmer in on this one. Last night, a significant development, they were able to announce that they were able to get the bullet out of this man and hand it over to federal agents. And that was taken up here for testing to begin right away.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. And the word we got from the hospital this morning, the doctor who conducted the operation said it was a fairly...

KAGAN: Fairly intact.

HEMMER: Yes, exactly.

KAGAN: Yes.

HEMMER: And then, the bullet was removed. Many times, doctors will tell you that they leave the bullet in the human body, because the body starts to heal and coalesce, essentially, around the bullet, and to remove it may cause undue stress to the body and excessive bleeding.

In these cases, though, you have ATF agents and FBI agents essentially up at the hospital, waiting to get their hands on that piece of evidence there, so they can run it through their tests and determine and conclude whether or not it matches the other thing.

The other thing about this victim, Daryn, he's 37 years old, no name released. His wife released a statement earlier today that was rather poignant just about, you know, we're being strong, you be strong too, and let's ultimately catch this person and end this ordeal.

He lost significant parts of his organs.

KAGAN: His organs, yes. HEMMER: Parts of his spleen was removed, his kidney was damaged, his pancreas was damaged, parts his intestines and his stomach as well. This man suffered an awful lot of damage, and I think that what shows us -- that shows us this bullet, if indeed it is the .223 caliber that we've talked about endlessly for 20 days now, how much damage this does inside of a human body. And this was a grown adult, and he was 37 years old, said to be in really good physical condition.

Think about two weeks ago...

KAGAN: When the 13-year-old -- right.

HEMMER: ...that eighth grader, the 13-year-old boy, how he fought for his life.

KAGAN: A couple of notes in comparing that. First of all, when I was listening to this man's injuries, it sounded very similar to the boy's injuries, in that the stomach ripped open and so many organs hit and hurt and so much work. But when they went in to do the surgery on the 13-year-old boy, they were able to get the bullet on the first try.

It was interesting to watch this unfold over the weekend, and that was when they came out the first time, not only did they say they didn't have the bullet, they made it clear that it was not their first priority; that this man was fighting for his life. If they could, in fact, go in, when he was able, that they would go for the bullet, but that there were other priorities that they had to deal with in just trying to keep this man in one piece.

HEMMER: A couple of things here. This is a map here of the Ponderosa where the shooting took place, a couple things rather interesting. State Route 1 to the left and I-95, an equal distance essentially from the restaurant, about a quarter of a mile both ways, which investigators have always thought that there is a getaway plan in place for the sniper.

One other housekeeping note, Daryn. The noon briefing, which is noon Eastern Time, about 15 minutes from now...

KAGAN: Here in Montgomery County?

HARRIS: ... has been delayed -- just getting word right now through the CNN Center in Atlanta that that has been delayed right now. When it's rescheduled, we don't know.

We heard the chief earlier today, when he came -- what, an hour and 15 minutes ago -- issue a very terse statement right now about where they are right now in terms of trying to communicate. We'll get to that in a moment.

One thing I want to bring up, though, about the shooting on Saturday night, which I think is quite critical. The sniper essentially broke his pattern...

KAGAN: In two ways.

HEMMER: ... or snipers in two ways. He hit on a weekend, the first time we've seen that going back to the 2nd of October, and going 80 miles south of Washington, D.C., which takes him well out of the jurisdiction that we have talked about in the previous events.

To date, the numbers, off the top of my head: Thirteen incidents going back to the first part of October, the first incident being the gunshot that hit the window in the Michaels Craft store. The next 12 incidents always claimed victims; 9 dead, 3 wounded, and the latest coming on Saturday night.

KAGAN: Right, and it's just a technicality, but even though police are going on the assumption that this, of course, was the work of the sniper, waiting for those ballistic tests to come back.

One more note about the man who was hit on Saturday night, and we've been talking also about his wife, and you mentioned a statement that she released. One thing that struck me in that statement, she was very appreciative of the support that she is receiving, not just from the hospital and from the doctors, but also from people in her home community, which they are keeping quiet.

And I also thought it was interesting that she asked not just for people's prayers for her husband and her family, but also to pray for the sniper, and that that person would somehow find it in their heart to stop claiming victims.

HEMMER: You know, it is so unbelievably random. This is a husband and wife. I think they're from Florida. That's the word we got anyway.

KAGAN: We know they're not from Virginia.

HEMMER: Yes, they're from out of state, and they stopped to get gas and stopped to grab a bite to eat on a Saturday nigh, and man, their life is changed forever.

KAGAN: Just walking across the Ponderosa Steak parking lot.

We'll continue to track it here. As Bill was mentioning that the Montgomery County briefing has been delayed. Not unusual, we've been seeing that when there is not dueling or competing, but when there are news briefings to come out of other counties. And of course, as we told you, there is that news briefing at 1:00 p.m. Eastern, and probably Montgomery County is waiting for that one to take place and we'll hear from the people here a little bit later.

Right now, let's toss it back to my partner, Leon Harris in Atlanta -- Leon.

HARRIS: All right, thanks, Daryn; thanks, Bill, as well.

Just for folks who are just now joining us this morning at 11 after the hour, we just want to recap some of what's been happening for the last two or three hours or so, coming from the scene that we've been watching this morning from west of Richmond, Virginia.

This morning, according to eyewitness accounts that we have gotten this morning and we've been replaying from time to time here, a number of different law enforcement authorities converged on an area, it's around a gas station, an Exxon gas station there, and prepared in advance for the arrival of this vehicle you see here being towed away -- this white Plymouth Voyager van which pulled up to a pay phone at this Exxon gas station.

And right after that happened, within about a matter of minutes, authorities converged on this van. They have now since -- and in this scene, they took one person into custody in this scene. And we understand moments later -- within about maybe 10 or 15 minutes later, another person was taken into custody at another scene. We still don't know exactly where that happened or what's up with that particular scene.

We're back now to live pictures from the Exxon gas station there, which is the crime scene right now, or the scene that is being treated as a crime scene this morning, which you're seeing the authorities who are assembled there protect the phone booth that this vehicle was parked next to. We saw them wrap it in plastic, and now it's covered in a tent. They were actually taking pictures of it as well moments ago, obviously recording whatever forensic evidence they are able to gain from that site.

And sitting here with us in the studio watching it here in Atlanta has been Sergeant Major Eric Haney, and well in New York, we have with us, Casey Jordan, a criminologist, who has been watching it and giving us the benefit of her insight on all of this as well this morning.

I want to get to you, Sergeant Haney. We've been talking behind the camera -- behind the scenes here, rather, about the ballet that we've seen play out between the messages that were sent out by Chief Moose there in Montgomery County, the arrest that happened here at the Exxon station, and the one that happened later.

How do you think -- we have yet to say -- we must say this first. We have not confirmed whether or not...

SGT. MAJ. ERIC HANEY, U.S. ARMY (RET.): No, we haven't.

HARRIS: ... that these are all related to the sniper investigation. But the timing of them does lend some suspicion about it.

HANEY: Well, obviously, just common sense says it is connected; that these are probably the two suspects without doubt.

But this whole ballet, this intricate method of turning yourself in, and the whole point is to survive it, because everyone is hyped up. These are dangerous characters. They've -- you know, they're killed people, and a lot of people. And everyone is tremendously perked up about that. So, then, establishing the method to say I'm going to come in, I'm coming in from the cold, and it could well have been this morning as we saw a time window was established, I will be at a certain place at a certain time. I want to see your forces, because this person drove right in. He saw the police. He had to see the units positioned around, pulled up and stopped, and whatever he did, which was probably just I'm going to put my hands on the wheel. Everything was crafted more than likely.

Also, I am quite certain police marksmen, police snipers, had that person in their sights all of the time, and he knew, if I move, I'm going to die. And then, the assault team or the entry team, the ones who are making the apprehension, came to the vehicle, as we saw, and took him into custody.

Immediately following, we heard Chief Moose come back again, and he made a statement, we're preparing our response.

HARRIS: And this all happened within about 5, 10 minutes of each other.

HANEY: Certainly, certainly. So, the first one will establish the bonafides edicts. OK? The police are dealing in good faith, whoever No. 2 was knows. They'll work the same way the second time.

Now, wherever that was, it was remote. It could well have been a person sitting in a home, in an office, in a motel room, and they had delivered their position at that point, and said, OK, now you can come and get me.

HARRIS: Casey Jordan, how does that sound to you?

CASEY JORDAN, CNN CRIMINOLOGIST: Well, I've gained a whole new respect for Eric, and I've got to give him high kudos for always predicting that there were two people involved. I was always a little 50/50 split on that theory, but it obviously has been proven that there are at least two people involved in this apprehension.

And the questions are being raised as to whether there might even be more, or whether the people who are in custody might represent a larger entity. So, I agree with his assessment so far.

I've got to back peddle a little, and say I may not be completely convinced -- but of course, I don't know as much about tactical efforts as Eric Haney does -- that the person surrendered. That would be inconsistent with what we know about serial killers. They almost never turn themselves in. And yet, there has been so much that has been so random, unpredictable, inconsistent about this case, that I think very little surprises any of us at this point.

HARRIS: Well, in your eyes and what you have said about what you think may a play here, Eric, you think we could be talking about terrorists here?

JORDAN: Well, I think...

HANEY: Not international, not super-national; home-grown terrorists.

Now, in my line of business in counterterrorism, we have a little trite way of categorizing terrorists. We have criminals, crazies and then crusaders. A criminal is the poor schmuck that holds up a bank and the cops are right there and he grabs a couple of people, because he just doesn't know what else to do. The crusaders are the ones with the political agenda, al Qaeda, you know, they're deluded, but they do have an agenda. And then, the crazies, and this is the crazy in it. It's how do you describe this? Somebody just wanting to kill a bunch of people. It's still terrorism. We have been terrified.

HARRIS: Oh...

HANEY: And they draw out the act. It is theaterism, watch me, I have you all on a string.

HARRIS: On that note, since have you introduced that idea of terrorism, we want to bring in some -- at least introduce to the audience watching this morning another break story that we're watching unfold; this from the Middle East. More violence to report this morning and speaking of terrorism.

We're getting word now this morning, and we've been able to confirm that there has been an explosion on a bus somewhere on the road between Affulah (ph) and Hadera. We understand this was a rather full bus traveling during the evening rush hour or the afternoon rush hour.

And according to Israeli TV now, reports are there are at least seven dead in this bus blast, and there were perhaps at least as many as 20 people wounded in this incident.

We're still trying to track the details on this story. We have get to get any eyewitnesses or any other accounts like that on this particular story. But what we can report at this particular time is that we understand that sometime during the afternoon rush hour, there was an explosion on a bus; seven are dead right now.

We'll have more on that for you later on.

We want to get back to this sniper investigation and the developments that we've been watching happen and unfold there on the scene, back to live pictures that are coming to us from west of Richmond, Virginia.

Now, we understand that, getting back to our conversation now with Eric Haney and Casey Jordan; now, just to get an idea of what may be happening right now. We understand that the press conference that the police were prepared to get under way in about maybe another 40 minutes or so, that has now been delayed.

We also know that they have two people in custody right now. We also know that perhaps there is maybe even more communication going on, because of the message that we heard from Chief Moose earlier this morning.

Any idea or insight as to what may be taking place right now?

HANEY: They're just to make sense of everything that they have right now, and see if that is all. So, they're sitting and having conversations. And I honestly believe the interrogators are sitting with them in a cell, and they're having a calm deliberation and a conversation. Is there anything else out there?

I mean, the fact, when you apprehend a terrorist or you resolve a terrorist situation, any of the locals who have been there, you just ask, is there anything else? Is there another threat? Are there bombs, are there weapons? Is it that someone out there that we just don't know about yet?

So, they are trying to develop that, and honestly, I have no idea of how they can do that by noon today.

HARRIS: Casey, in doing what you do and in trying to peek into the mind of someone that may be perpetrating these kinds of acts that we have seen, if you look at what's been happening since the weekend and the acceleration of the communication, at least puppet communication between the investigators and this perpetrator or perpetrators or whatever, what do you make of that acceleration of communication?

JORDAN: We often see this with some serial killers who begin to find that the circumstances are going so fast, they're so caught up in the momentum of what they're doing, and perhaps they start making mistakes, they know they made a mistake, it undermines their confidence, they make further mistakes.

We often see serial killers accelerate their downward fall, unwittingly usually. We also often call this the downward spiral.

Again, there have been so many inconsistencies with this particular two-and-a-half week incident that it's really hard to compare what we know at this point with known typologies, because as we've been saying all along, these shootings don't match a particular pattern.

But we certainly have seen power-control oriented serial killers start to trip themselves up towards the end and to their own demise. If you would ask me, any kind of written letter left at the crime scene was a huge mistake if they want to get away with it. But maybe as Eric says, they were ready to not get away with it any longer. They wanted the madness to end.

HARRIS: Yes, but you bring up that letter. We haven't talked about that this morning, this report that there was some sort of a lengthy letter that was left behind there at that Ponderosa. We don't really know much about that this morning. We have not heard any more new information about whether or not it was a handwritten letter or note, whether or not it was something that was printed out on a computer or whatever, which would defeat any attempts to try to trace the writing or whatever back to another specific person or anything like that.

But what do you make of the fact that there was this report coming out, Eric?

HANEY: Well, I am loathe to ever point a finger at some kind of a shortcoming of the police force, because what a horrible job they've had during all of this. But it seems to indicate to me that there was an earlier communication with the police to possibly negotiate an end to all of this. And...

HARRIS: Something after that first tarot card that was reported and which to the confusion right...

HANEY: At some point...

(CROSSTALK)

HARRIS: ... to the police.

HANEY: At some point, whether it was then or a little bit later, we don't know that yet. It would be conjecture on my part, but it seems like there may have been some communication to negotiate just what we saw today, of what took place today, and it didn't come off. Either someone was just not really good at bringing it off, or the person felt that there was duplicity on the part of the police, and they said, OK, watch this, and we have a shooting Saturday night. Because that was afterwards, Chief Moose came out and, in essence, he said, we're listening to you now...

HARRIS: OK...

HANEY: Well, I believe you.

HARRIS: All right, let's bring up that shooting from Saturday night. The bullet, we understand, was recovered hours later, the next day.

HANEY: Sure, yes.

HARRIS: And of course -- and we don't really know the state or the condition of that. Have we seen or heard reports about that yet?

HANEY: No, we haven't. But you know, the police acted immediately as though it was still the same sniper shooting. They didn't seem to be really concerned about the bullet in the man's body.

HARRIS: And what would that say to you?

HANEY: It said that the bonafides had been established; that they had no doubt this was the sniper, even though he may well have told them...

HARRIS: So, the shooting...

HANEY: ... and at Saturday night at 8:00, I'm going to get another one.

HARRIS: So, the shooting itself may have been a message to the police. HANEY: It could well have been, the message, I want you to know I'm serious. You know, how many more people do you want to lose before we bring this thing to a negotiated end? No more tricks. If there were -- if that happened, but it indicates that to me.

HARRIS: That's an interesting point, because -- Casey, you can weigh in on this one as well. We were talking about the proximity of the shooter and the victim on Saturday evening at the Ponderosa, and by all reports, the victim was a large man. He would present then a large target, and yet, the target was actually hit, not as the lady who was unfortunately killed that at that Home Depot, but this man was struck in the abdomen, somewhere in the body which to some people may indicate that this perhaps was not an intent on his life, but perhaps to send a message.

Casey, would you follow on that line?

JORDAN: I don't believe that the particular shooters would shoot to injure instead of kill. I think that, again, they're not professional snipers. They are decent marksmen, certainly experienced marksmen. Whoever the shooter was however, I think probably shot at close range. As I have learned from Kelly McCann in the last few days, this is very often the reason why they miss the upper torso is because they've not calculated for a closer range.

HARRIS: Very interesting.

Let's go back to my partner, Daryn Kagan, who is standing by there in Montgomery County -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Yes, Leon, thank you very much.

As we are watching this and waiting for more word to come out of Montgomery County, we want to go ahead and check in again in Richmond, Virginia, where we expect that news conference to come in about an hour-and-a-half.

Our Ed Lavandera is standing by with more on that.

Ed -- hello.

All right, well, Ed is still getting in position.

Casey, we're going to put you back to work here then, and talk about this note that has been so intriguing to us, since I think it's all blurring together now, but since last night when Police Chief Moose came out and talked about this phone number. What does it indicate when somebody does leave behind a note like that, or some kind of message?

JORDAN: Well, first of all, it was very interesting this morning to hear that the message was confirmed to be a written note. This is the most obvious thing, when somebody says we received your message. I think everyone jumped to the conclusion it would be a written note or something typed or printed, but something on paper. And because I always like to think of the most obscure angle that it occurred to me that the message could have been conveyed by, for all we know, writing in the dirt at the crime scene, carving in a tree or leaving a phone message, and the phone number that they communicated could have been communicated just via caller ID.

So, it was nice to get rid of all of the obscure theories, and realize that it is as simple as we initially thought. It is a written message.

But what was also interesting was that they described it as significant text. Significant in what way? We don't precisely know, but obviously, it wasn't just, call me at this number.

Whether it was pages, whether the significance is in the content of the letter or the length of the letter, again, the police know far more than we do, and that's for the best right now.

But clearly, whatever was in that letter is what led them to the two people who are in custody, and I think all will be revealed eventually. But that was the reason, I'm quite certain, that they are in custody now.

Whether they are in custody voluntarily or involuntarily remains to be seen.

KAGAN: Right. Actually, I want to take a step back from that. We actually, as far I know, don't know in fact that the contents of that letter led -- we don't know very much about the two people who are in custody right now. It could be two separate issues in there, and they are purposely not calling them suspects.

JORDAN: That's true.

KAGAN: But let's back away from that...

JORDAN: OK.

KAGAN: Let's back away from that for a second.

But we are learning more since last night, and you do make a good point, more than just a phone number.

JORDAN: Absolutely.

KAGAN: And so, what does that say about a person who has more to say? And when they have a piece of evidence like this, how do they rip it apart and try to get every bit of information out of it that they can?

JORDAN: Well, generally, when you have a written communication, there are two aspects you are going to approach it with. One is going to be pure forensic science in terms of the paper that it was written on, the ink, whether it was typed, printed, handwritten. Handwriting analysis is something that a lot of people don't like to jump to conclusions with. It's extremely useful if you already have a sample of handwriting to compare it to, but it's not an exact science at all in terms of telling you what kind of person, per se, wrote the letter based on the actual handwriting. The graphology, I believe it's called.

Far more interesting in my line of work is the actual content of a letter in terms of the words that were used, the phraseology, the syntax, whether things were misspelled, whether there was very proper grammar, whether, you know, the subtext, was it extremely organized, was it disorganized, how did they address whomever it was written to?

In my experience, the content, meaning the actual words and the message and the phraseology, is extremely important in terms of guessing at the psychology of the writer.

KAGAN: I have another question for you. But first, I want to point to out viewers what they're seeing, as we put the screen there. On one half, of course, it would be Casey Jordan or me, as the case might be. On the other side, a live picture from Richmond, Virginia. This is the Exxon gas station, where this white van was confiscated just a little while ago, and also where one person was taken into custody earlier.

CNN has confirmed that there are two people in custody. They, at this point, are purposely not calling them suspects. What more and makes people of interest to police at this point, we do not know, but we are expecting a news briefing in about an hour-and-a-half.

Now, Casey, getting back to this manner of communication, we were taken to find out about this last night. And thinking back, we were thinking, well, the last time we heard from the sniper, it was with that tarot card. But isn't it very possible that there has been some means of communication at every one of the shooting sites? It's just that police haven't chosen to share that with the media and the public?

JORDAN: And not only is it possible, Daryn, at this juncture, I think it's extremely probable. And it would be indicative of excellent police work.

Again, the public doesn't need to know everything that's going on behind the investigation.

And it would also explain the high emotions displayed by Chief Moose when the information on the tarot card got out. There was always this concern that regardless of how the information did get out that it did compromise possibly a potential communications outreach on behalf of the sniper. It's very likely that there have been other attempts to communicate with the police in the interim, since the boy's shooting until the letter that was left on Saturday night.

If there were, it wouldn't be very consistent and explain how they were able to act so quickly on the written message that they got on Saturday. But there could easily have been other messages, perhaps other tarot cards all along that we don't know about.

Based on the amazing response that we've seen this morning, again, whether it's related to Saturday night's shooting or not, we don't know. But based on the response, one would think that there has been a lot going on behind the scenes all along that we haven't known about.

KAGAN: Yes, it goes without saying. Casey Jordan, thank you. We'll be keeping you on hand.

Leon, I'm going to toss it back to you. I just want to review some of the things we're looking for, a future briefing from here in Montgomery County. That time has yet to be announced. An hour-and-a- half from now, the briefing in Richmond, Virginia, and also out of Richmond, I would imagine sometime today, we'll be getting more updates on the condition of that patient, the man who was shot on Saturday night in Ashland, Virginia. The hospital there has been very good about keeping us up-to-date, as he continues to fight for his life.

And now, back to you.

HARRIS: All right, good deal. Thanks, Daryn. We'll get back to you in just a couple minutes.

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Aired October 21, 2002 - 11:03   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: We are going to stand by here in Montgomery County and wait for an additional statement from Chief Moose, who did say he is going to come out later and make another statement with the person that he is trying to communicate with -- that police are.
Meanwhile, we want to go back live to Richmond, Virginia, and that's where we find our Ed Lavandera who is standing by with where all of the action was taking place this morning.

Ed --good morning.

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Daryn.

Well, the work continues here at the Exxon gas station. This area has been secured, as authorities here are saying, and now what has happened is the area has been roped off. These tarps have been put over several of the pay phones that are in this Exxon parking lot.

So, this is a very busy part of western Richmond, and there's a lot of traffic that comes through this area, so a lot of traffic being diverted through the area. Of course, now at this point, a lot of onlookers are starting to arrive at the scene.

But we do see quite a large number of authorities here, combing the scene, looking for evidence, clues or anything like that. We saw them taking pictures of several things that were on the ground around where the Plymouth Voyager, a white minivan that was parked just a little while ago.

And when we arrived here on the scene, we had a chance to speak with a gentleman named Keith Underwood, and he actually works at a car dealership just to the left here of the Exxon gas station. And he described what he saw this morning as authorities and the investigators here started making their way in approaching this Exxon gas station this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEITH UNDERWOOD, WITNESS: I know that the police officers' expression was they tried to get into the van a couple of times. They had approached it on the passenger side. They were fully drawn. I was in the building, so I couldn't hear them yelling or screaming or anything, but you could tell they were talking to the guy probably pretty loud.

They kept pulling on the car; it was locked. They would go back into the stance. They pulled it a couple of more times. It finally opened up. They threw the passenger door open. They slid the sliding door open. Their upper bodies went into it, and pulled then him out and immediately stuck him on the ground.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now, was he resisting at all, or did he just kind of go peacefully when they moved in?

UNDERWOOD: He was in -- they had control of him. I didn't see him resisting, no. I mean, he was -- they were pulling him out, and he was coming out. So, no, I didn't see him kicking or fighting them. He went straight from the van to pretty much sitting on his butt on the ground.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What did he look like? Did he kind of meet the descriptions we have been kind of hearing?

UNDERWOOD: I haven't heard any descriptions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he look like a Latino?

UNDERWOOD: Yes, it's possible. There was a lot of cops around.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LAVANDERA: Now, here at the -- just a little while ago, actually probably about an hour ago, the white Plymouth Voyager van was taken away from the scene. When I arrived here on the scene, the minivan was actually parked very closely to the telephone, as you see just behind the white and yellow tarp there. And it almost appeared as if you were sitting in the driver's seat, you could just lean out the window and dial the phone from there.

So, that was the scene. That car was taken away. And of course, as we've been reporting, two people arrested here this morning. They are in the Henrico County jail as we speak.

One person was arrested here at the scene. The other person, we are told by federal law enforcement sources, that was arrested at another location, not exactly sure where, but that arrest took place without incident, and it also took place -- apparently no signs of any kind -- of that person being armed at all.

So, that's the latest from here.

Also, I should mention in about two hours' time, the press briefing here with local, state and federal authorities, although officially, the spokespeople here for the investigators not commenting on what is going to be said publicly at that point in about two hours -- Daryn.

KAGAN: All right, well, certainly when it begins, our viewers will see it live here on CNN.

Ed, in terms of where the second person was taken into custody, we don't even know if we're talking the Richmond area? LAVANDERA: No. But the only point -- what we do know from the sources is that the person that was arrested was arrested in relation to what was happening here. But again, you're right, that could mean anything, and we don't want to go too far based on what we were told by our sources. So, we don't want to stretch it. It's just enough to say that it was a second person that was arrested.

KAGAN: All right, Ed, I think you're done. Someone took the sound out of my ear, so I'm not really sure. But I'm going to take it from there.

Also in Richmond, Virginia today, a man is fighting for his life. This is the 37-year-old man who was shot on Saturday. And this is what drew the attention of this case to the southern part of Virginia, and they are protecting his identity.

He has gone through two surgeries since that shooting took place. Significantly, he is fighting back. He is doing well and hanging on.

Also, the other part -- and this might be a development that we see today, and let me bring Bill Hemmer in on this one. Last night, a significant development, they were able to announce that they were able to get the bullet out of this man and hand it over to federal agents. And that was taken up here for testing to begin right away.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. And the word we got from the hospital this morning, the doctor who conducted the operation said it was a fairly...

KAGAN: Fairly intact.

HEMMER: Yes, exactly.

KAGAN: Yes.

HEMMER: And then, the bullet was removed. Many times, doctors will tell you that they leave the bullet in the human body, because the body starts to heal and coalesce, essentially, around the bullet, and to remove it may cause undue stress to the body and excessive bleeding.

In these cases, though, you have ATF agents and FBI agents essentially up at the hospital, waiting to get their hands on that piece of evidence there, so they can run it through their tests and determine and conclude whether or not it matches the other thing.

The other thing about this victim, Daryn, he's 37 years old, no name released. His wife released a statement earlier today that was rather poignant just about, you know, we're being strong, you be strong too, and let's ultimately catch this person and end this ordeal.

He lost significant parts of his organs.

KAGAN: His organs, yes. HEMMER: Parts of his spleen was removed, his kidney was damaged, his pancreas was damaged, parts his intestines and his stomach as well. This man suffered an awful lot of damage, and I think that what shows us -- that shows us this bullet, if indeed it is the .223 caliber that we've talked about endlessly for 20 days now, how much damage this does inside of a human body. And this was a grown adult, and he was 37 years old, said to be in really good physical condition.

Think about two weeks ago...

KAGAN: When the 13-year-old -- right.

HEMMER: ...that eighth grader, the 13-year-old boy, how he fought for his life.

KAGAN: A couple of notes in comparing that. First of all, when I was listening to this man's injuries, it sounded very similar to the boy's injuries, in that the stomach ripped open and so many organs hit and hurt and so much work. But when they went in to do the surgery on the 13-year-old boy, they were able to get the bullet on the first try.

It was interesting to watch this unfold over the weekend, and that was when they came out the first time, not only did they say they didn't have the bullet, they made it clear that it was not their first priority; that this man was fighting for his life. If they could, in fact, go in, when he was able, that they would go for the bullet, but that there were other priorities that they had to deal with in just trying to keep this man in one piece.

HEMMER: A couple of things here. This is a map here of the Ponderosa where the shooting took place, a couple things rather interesting. State Route 1 to the left and I-95, an equal distance essentially from the restaurant, about a quarter of a mile both ways, which investigators have always thought that there is a getaway plan in place for the sniper.

One other housekeeping note, Daryn. The noon briefing, which is noon Eastern Time, about 15 minutes from now...

KAGAN: Here in Montgomery County?

HARRIS: ... has been delayed -- just getting word right now through the CNN Center in Atlanta that that has been delayed right now. When it's rescheduled, we don't know.

We heard the chief earlier today, when he came -- what, an hour and 15 minutes ago -- issue a very terse statement right now about where they are right now in terms of trying to communicate. We'll get to that in a moment.

One thing I want to bring up, though, about the shooting on Saturday night, which I think is quite critical. The sniper essentially broke his pattern...

KAGAN: In two ways.

HEMMER: ... or snipers in two ways. He hit on a weekend, the first time we've seen that going back to the 2nd of October, and going 80 miles south of Washington, D.C., which takes him well out of the jurisdiction that we have talked about in the previous events.

To date, the numbers, off the top of my head: Thirteen incidents going back to the first part of October, the first incident being the gunshot that hit the window in the Michaels Craft store. The next 12 incidents always claimed victims; 9 dead, 3 wounded, and the latest coming on Saturday night.

KAGAN: Right, and it's just a technicality, but even though police are going on the assumption that this, of course, was the work of the sniper, waiting for those ballistic tests to come back.

One more note about the man who was hit on Saturday night, and we've been talking also about his wife, and you mentioned a statement that she released. One thing that struck me in that statement, she was very appreciative of the support that she is receiving, not just from the hospital and from the doctors, but also from people in her home community, which they are keeping quiet.

And I also thought it was interesting that she asked not just for people's prayers for her husband and her family, but also to pray for the sniper, and that that person would somehow find it in their heart to stop claiming victims.

HEMMER: You know, it is so unbelievably random. This is a husband and wife. I think they're from Florida. That's the word we got anyway.

KAGAN: We know they're not from Virginia.

HEMMER: Yes, they're from out of state, and they stopped to get gas and stopped to grab a bite to eat on a Saturday nigh, and man, their life is changed forever.

KAGAN: Just walking across the Ponderosa Steak parking lot.

We'll continue to track it here. As Bill was mentioning that the Montgomery County briefing has been delayed. Not unusual, we've been seeing that when there is not dueling or competing, but when there are news briefings to come out of other counties. And of course, as we told you, there is that news briefing at 1:00 p.m. Eastern, and probably Montgomery County is waiting for that one to take place and we'll hear from the people here a little bit later.

Right now, let's toss it back to my partner, Leon Harris in Atlanta -- Leon.

HARRIS: All right, thanks, Daryn; thanks, Bill, as well.

Just for folks who are just now joining us this morning at 11 after the hour, we just want to recap some of what's been happening for the last two or three hours or so, coming from the scene that we've been watching this morning from west of Richmond, Virginia.

This morning, according to eyewitness accounts that we have gotten this morning and we've been replaying from time to time here, a number of different law enforcement authorities converged on an area, it's around a gas station, an Exxon gas station there, and prepared in advance for the arrival of this vehicle you see here being towed away -- this white Plymouth Voyager van which pulled up to a pay phone at this Exxon gas station.

And right after that happened, within about a matter of minutes, authorities converged on this van. They have now since -- and in this scene, they took one person into custody in this scene. And we understand moments later -- within about maybe 10 or 15 minutes later, another person was taken into custody at another scene. We still don't know exactly where that happened or what's up with that particular scene.

We're back now to live pictures from the Exxon gas station there, which is the crime scene right now, or the scene that is being treated as a crime scene this morning, which you're seeing the authorities who are assembled there protect the phone booth that this vehicle was parked next to. We saw them wrap it in plastic, and now it's covered in a tent. They were actually taking pictures of it as well moments ago, obviously recording whatever forensic evidence they are able to gain from that site.

And sitting here with us in the studio watching it here in Atlanta has been Sergeant Major Eric Haney, and well in New York, we have with us, Casey Jordan, a criminologist, who has been watching it and giving us the benefit of her insight on all of this as well this morning.

I want to get to you, Sergeant Haney. We've been talking behind the camera -- behind the scenes here, rather, about the ballet that we've seen play out between the messages that were sent out by Chief Moose there in Montgomery County, the arrest that happened here at the Exxon station, and the one that happened later.

How do you think -- we have yet to say -- we must say this first. We have not confirmed whether or not...

SGT. MAJ. ERIC HANEY, U.S. ARMY (RET.): No, we haven't.

HARRIS: ... that these are all related to the sniper investigation. But the timing of them does lend some suspicion about it.

HANEY: Well, obviously, just common sense says it is connected; that these are probably the two suspects without doubt.

But this whole ballet, this intricate method of turning yourself in, and the whole point is to survive it, because everyone is hyped up. These are dangerous characters. They've -- you know, they're killed people, and a lot of people. And everyone is tremendously perked up about that. So, then, establishing the method to say I'm going to come in, I'm coming in from the cold, and it could well have been this morning as we saw a time window was established, I will be at a certain place at a certain time. I want to see your forces, because this person drove right in. He saw the police. He had to see the units positioned around, pulled up and stopped, and whatever he did, which was probably just I'm going to put my hands on the wheel. Everything was crafted more than likely.

Also, I am quite certain police marksmen, police snipers, had that person in their sights all of the time, and he knew, if I move, I'm going to die. And then, the assault team or the entry team, the ones who are making the apprehension, came to the vehicle, as we saw, and took him into custody.

Immediately following, we heard Chief Moose come back again, and he made a statement, we're preparing our response.

HARRIS: And this all happened within about 5, 10 minutes of each other.

HANEY: Certainly, certainly. So, the first one will establish the bonafides edicts. OK? The police are dealing in good faith, whoever No. 2 was knows. They'll work the same way the second time.

Now, wherever that was, it was remote. It could well have been a person sitting in a home, in an office, in a motel room, and they had delivered their position at that point, and said, OK, now you can come and get me.

HARRIS: Casey Jordan, how does that sound to you?

CASEY JORDAN, CNN CRIMINOLOGIST: Well, I've gained a whole new respect for Eric, and I've got to give him high kudos for always predicting that there were two people involved. I was always a little 50/50 split on that theory, but it obviously has been proven that there are at least two people involved in this apprehension.

And the questions are being raised as to whether there might even be more, or whether the people who are in custody might represent a larger entity. So, I agree with his assessment so far.

I've got to back peddle a little, and say I may not be completely convinced -- but of course, I don't know as much about tactical efforts as Eric Haney does -- that the person surrendered. That would be inconsistent with what we know about serial killers. They almost never turn themselves in. And yet, there has been so much that has been so random, unpredictable, inconsistent about this case, that I think very little surprises any of us at this point.

HARRIS: Well, in your eyes and what you have said about what you think may a play here, Eric, you think we could be talking about terrorists here?

JORDAN: Well, I think...

HANEY: Not international, not super-national; home-grown terrorists.

Now, in my line of business in counterterrorism, we have a little trite way of categorizing terrorists. We have criminals, crazies and then crusaders. A criminal is the poor schmuck that holds up a bank and the cops are right there and he grabs a couple of people, because he just doesn't know what else to do. The crusaders are the ones with the political agenda, al Qaeda, you know, they're deluded, but they do have an agenda. And then, the crazies, and this is the crazy in it. It's how do you describe this? Somebody just wanting to kill a bunch of people. It's still terrorism. We have been terrified.

HARRIS: Oh...

HANEY: And they draw out the act. It is theaterism, watch me, I have you all on a string.

HARRIS: On that note, since have you introduced that idea of terrorism, we want to bring in some -- at least introduce to the audience watching this morning another break story that we're watching unfold; this from the Middle East. More violence to report this morning and speaking of terrorism.

We're getting word now this morning, and we've been able to confirm that there has been an explosion on a bus somewhere on the road between Affulah (ph) and Hadera. We understand this was a rather full bus traveling during the evening rush hour or the afternoon rush hour.

And according to Israeli TV now, reports are there are at least seven dead in this bus blast, and there were perhaps at least as many as 20 people wounded in this incident.

We're still trying to track the details on this story. We have get to get any eyewitnesses or any other accounts like that on this particular story. But what we can report at this particular time is that we understand that sometime during the afternoon rush hour, there was an explosion on a bus; seven are dead right now.

We'll have more on that for you later on.

We want to get back to this sniper investigation and the developments that we've been watching happen and unfold there on the scene, back to live pictures that are coming to us from west of Richmond, Virginia.

Now, we understand that, getting back to our conversation now with Eric Haney and Casey Jordan; now, just to get an idea of what may be happening right now. We understand that the press conference that the police were prepared to get under way in about maybe another 40 minutes or so, that has now been delayed.

We also know that they have two people in custody right now. We also know that perhaps there is maybe even more communication going on, because of the message that we heard from Chief Moose earlier this morning.

Any idea or insight as to what may be taking place right now?

HANEY: They're just to make sense of everything that they have right now, and see if that is all. So, they're sitting and having conversations. And I honestly believe the interrogators are sitting with them in a cell, and they're having a calm deliberation and a conversation. Is there anything else out there?

I mean, the fact, when you apprehend a terrorist or you resolve a terrorist situation, any of the locals who have been there, you just ask, is there anything else? Is there another threat? Are there bombs, are there weapons? Is it that someone out there that we just don't know about yet?

So, they are trying to develop that, and honestly, I have no idea of how they can do that by noon today.

HARRIS: Casey, in doing what you do and in trying to peek into the mind of someone that may be perpetrating these kinds of acts that we have seen, if you look at what's been happening since the weekend and the acceleration of the communication, at least puppet communication between the investigators and this perpetrator or perpetrators or whatever, what do you make of that acceleration of communication?

JORDAN: We often see this with some serial killers who begin to find that the circumstances are going so fast, they're so caught up in the momentum of what they're doing, and perhaps they start making mistakes, they know they made a mistake, it undermines their confidence, they make further mistakes.

We often see serial killers accelerate their downward fall, unwittingly usually. We also often call this the downward spiral.

Again, there have been so many inconsistencies with this particular two-and-a-half week incident that it's really hard to compare what we know at this point with known typologies, because as we've been saying all along, these shootings don't match a particular pattern.

But we certainly have seen power-control oriented serial killers start to trip themselves up towards the end and to their own demise. If you would ask me, any kind of written letter left at the crime scene was a huge mistake if they want to get away with it. But maybe as Eric says, they were ready to not get away with it any longer. They wanted the madness to end.

HARRIS: Yes, but you bring up that letter. We haven't talked about that this morning, this report that there was some sort of a lengthy letter that was left behind there at that Ponderosa. We don't really know much about that this morning. We have not heard any more new information about whether or not it was a handwritten letter or note, whether or not it was something that was printed out on a computer or whatever, which would defeat any attempts to try to trace the writing or whatever back to another specific person or anything like that.

But what do you make of the fact that there was this report coming out, Eric?

HANEY: Well, I am loathe to ever point a finger at some kind of a shortcoming of the police force, because what a horrible job they've had during all of this. But it seems to indicate to me that there was an earlier communication with the police to possibly negotiate an end to all of this. And...

HARRIS: Something after that first tarot card that was reported and which to the confusion right...

HANEY: At some point...

(CROSSTALK)

HARRIS: ... to the police.

HANEY: At some point, whether it was then or a little bit later, we don't know that yet. It would be conjecture on my part, but it seems like there may have been some communication to negotiate just what we saw today, of what took place today, and it didn't come off. Either someone was just not really good at bringing it off, or the person felt that there was duplicity on the part of the police, and they said, OK, watch this, and we have a shooting Saturday night. Because that was afterwards, Chief Moose came out and, in essence, he said, we're listening to you now...

HARRIS: OK...

HANEY: Well, I believe you.

HARRIS: All right, let's bring up that shooting from Saturday night. The bullet, we understand, was recovered hours later, the next day.

HANEY: Sure, yes.

HARRIS: And of course -- and we don't really know the state or the condition of that. Have we seen or heard reports about that yet?

HANEY: No, we haven't. But you know, the police acted immediately as though it was still the same sniper shooting. They didn't seem to be really concerned about the bullet in the man's body.

HARRIS: And what would that say to you?

HANEY: It said that the bonafides had been established; that they had no doubt this was the sniper, even though he may well have told them...

HARRIS: So, the shooting...

HANEY: ... and at Saturday night at 8:00, I'm going to get another one.

HARRIS: So, the shooting itself may have been a message to the police. HANEY: It could well have been, the message, I want you to know I'm serious. You know, how many more people do you want to lose before we bring this thing to a negotiated end? No more tricks. If there were -- if that happened, but it indicates that to me.

HARRIS: That's an interesting point, because -- Casey, you can weigh in on this one as well. We were talking about the proximity of the shooter and the victim on Saturday evening at the Ponderosa, and by all reports, the victim was a large man. He would present then a large target, and yet, the target was actually hit, not as the lady who was unfortunately killed that at that Home Depot, but this man was struck in the abdomen, somewhere in the body which to some people may indicate that this perhaps was not an intent on his life, but perhaps to send a message.

Casey, would you follow on that line?

JORDAN: I don't believe that the particular shooters would shoot to injure instead of kill. I think that, again, they're not professional snipers. They are decent marksmen, certainly experienced marksmen. Whoever the shooter was however, I think probably shot at close range. As I have learned from Kelly McCann in the last few days, this is very often the reason why they miss the upper torso is because they've not calculated for a closer range.

HARRIS: Very interesting.

Let's go back to my partner, Daryn Kagan, who is standing by there in Montgomery County -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Yes, Leon, thank you very much.

As we are watching this and waiting for more word to come out of Montgomery County, we want to go ahead and check in again in Richmond, Virginia, where we expect that news conference to come in about an hour-and-a-half.

Our Ed Lavandera is standing by with more on that.

Ed -- hello.

All right, well, Ed is still getting in position.

Casey, we're going to put you back to work here then, and talk about this note that has been so intriguing to us, since I think it's all blurring together now, but since last night when Police Chief Moose came out and talked about this phone number. What does it indicate when somebody does leave behind a note like that, or some kind of message?

JORDAN: Well, first of all, it was very interesting this morning to hear that the message was confirmed to be a written note. This is the most obvious thing, when somebody says we received your message. I think everyone jumped to the conclusion it would be a written note or something typed or printed, but something on paper. And because I always like to think of the most obscure angle that it occurred to me that the message could have been conveyed by, for all we know, writing in the dirt at the crime scene, carving in a tree or leaving a phone message, and the phone number that they communicated could have been communicated just via caller ID.

So, it was nice to get rid of all of the obscure theories, and realize that it is as simple as we initially thought. It is a written message.

But what was also interesting was that they described it as significant text. Significant in what way? We don't precisely know, but obviously, it wasn't just, call me at this number.

Whether it was pages, whether the significance is in the content of the letter or the length of the letter, again, the police know far more than we do, and that's for the best right now.

But clearly, whatever was in that letter is what led them to the two people who are in custody, and I think all will be revealed eventually. But that was the reason, I'm quite certain, that they are in custody now.

Whether they are in custody voluntarily or involuntarily remains to be seen.

KAGAN: Right. Actually, I want to take a step back from that. We actually, as far I know, don't know in fact that the contents of that letter led -- we don't know very much about the two people who are in custody right now. It could be two separate issues in there, and they are purposely not calling them suspects.

JORDAN: That's true.

KAGAN: But let's back away from that...

JORDAN: OK.

KAGAN: Let's back away from that for a second.

But we are learning more since last night, and you do make a good point, more than just a phone number.

JORDAN: Absolutely.

KAGAN: And so, what does that say about a person who has more to say? And when they have a piece of evidence like this, how do they rip it apart and try to get every bit of information out of it that they can?

JORDAN: Well, generally, when you have a written communication, there are two aspects you are going to approach it with. One is going to be pure forensic science in terms of the paper that it was written on, the ink, whether it was typed, printed, handwritten. Handwriting analysis is something that a lot of people don't like to jump to conclusions with. It's extremely useful if you already have a sample of handwriting to compare it to, but it's not an exact science at all in terms of telling you what kind of person, per se, wrote the letter based on the actual handwriting. The graphology, I believe it's called.

Far more interesting in my line of work is the actual content of a letter in terms of the words that were used, the phraseology, the syntax, whether things were misspelled, whether there was very proper grammar, whether, you know, the subtext, was it extremely organized, was it disorganized, how did they address whomever it was written to?

In my experience, the content, meaning the actual words and the message and the phraseology, is extremely important in terms of guessing at the psychology of the writer.

KAGAN: I have another question for you. But first, I want to point to out viewers what they're seeing, as we put the screen there. On one half, of course, it would be Casey Jordan or me, as the case might be. On the other side, a live picture from Richmond, Virginia. This is the Exxon gas station, where this white van was confiscated just a little while ago, and also where one person was taken into custody earlier.

CNN has confirmed that there are two people in custody. They, at this point, are purposely not calling them suspects. What more and makes people of interest to police at this point, we do not know, but we are expecting a news briefing in about an hour-and-a-half.

Now, Casey, getting back to this manner of communication, we were taken to find out about this last night. And thinking back, we were thinking, well, the last time we heard from the sniper, it was with that tarot card. But isn't it very possible that there has been some means of communication at every one of the shooting sites? It's just that police haven't chosen to share that with the media and the public?

JORDAN: And not only is it possible, Daryn, at this juncture, I think it's extremely probable. And it would be indicative of excellent police work.

Again, the public doesn't need to know everything that's going on behind the investigation.

And it would also explain the high emotions displayed by Chief Moose when the information on the tarot card got out. There was always this concern that regardless of how the information did get out that it did compromise possibly a potential communications outreach on behalf of the sniper. It's very likely that there have been other attempts to communicate with the police in the interim, since the boy's shooting until the letter that was left on Saturday night.

If there were, it wouldn't be very consistent and explain how they were able to act so quickly on the written message that they got on Saturday. But there could easily have been other messages, perhaps other tarot cards all along that we don't know about.

Based on the amazing response that we've seen this morning, again, whether it's related to Saturday night's shooting or not, we don't know. But based on the response, one would think that there has been a lot going on behind the scenes all along that we haven't known about.

KAGAN: Yes, it goes without saying. Casey Jordan, thank you. We'll be keeping you on hand.

Leon, I'm going to toss it back to you. I just want to review some of the things we're looking for, a future briefing from here in Montgomery County. That time has yet to be announced. An hour-and-a- half from now, the briefing in Richmond, Virginia, and also out of Richmond, I would imagine sometime today, we'll be getting more updates on the condition of that patient, the man who was shot on Saturday night in Ashland, Virginia. The hospital there has been very good about keeping us up-to-date, as he continues to fight for his life.

And now, back to you.

HARRIS: All right, good deal. Thanks, Daryn. We'll get back to you in just a couple minutes.

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