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Aired November 20, 2003 - 15:01 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: We're going to bring in our spin team. Joining us out of New York, Robbie Vorhaus. He's the president and CEO of Vorhaus Public Relations. Also, Karen Russell joining us, a family attorney based in Seattle, Washington.
I know that both of you have been following this breaking news as we have been following it since this afternoon. Maybe I should sort of get your overall -- what is your thinking at this point?
Karen, let's start with you.
KAREN RUSSELL, ATTORNEY: Well, I think that, before we all rush to judgment, we should look at what the case against Michael Jackson actually is and what -- sort of what we don't know yet.
And we don't really know, beyond the charge, what sort of other evidence there is besides the testimony. So, we don't know if there are other witnesses. We don't know if there's physical evidence. So I think it's early to tell exactly how hot the water is that Michael Jackson is in.
PHILLIPS: Well, definitely a challenge to prove intent, if you look at the overall aspects of this case, Karen, right?
RUSSELL: Absolutely. Absolutely.
And I think the other thing that we have to look at is about -- let's look at the parents for a second and what sort of parents, given the allegations in the '90s, would allow their child to sleep with an adult male. I also think we have to look at the press conference yesterday and take the DA and the sheriff's to task for starting this off with a circus bang, as it were.
PHILLIPS: And, Robbie, I know you, of all individuals, can talk about how the heck he and his team will spin him out of this one, I guess we could say. A lot of questions to be answered, a lot of finger-pointing that I am sure is going to take place.
ROBBIE VORHAUS, VORHAUS & COMPANY: That's right. That's right.
PHILLIPS: You do. You wonder, who are these kids? Who are their parents? How can this even be allowed to happen in the first place?
VORHAUS: Well, that's right. And you have heard me say it before, but truth really is the ultimate spin here. I mean, how did these children get to the ranch? How did they get into this situation? How did Michael Jackson get them into this situation. Look, he has affected so many people's lives for so long. I agree entirely with Karen, who is saying, let's kind of step back and look at this story.
If Michael Jackson chooses to grow up in front of our very eyes and come out of Neverland and say: "Look, I'm eccentric. I'm not perverted. I'm eccentric. And here's how all of this happened," we have got a much different story than if he decides to stand behind handlers.
PHILLIPS: All right, so, you're saying, sort of come clean. Just go ahead, sit down, have the interview with Larry King or Barbara Walters or whomever and just get this...
VORHAUS: Larry King, of course.
PHILLIPS: Of course. Give this heartfelt interview. You're saying that that could make a huge difference here?
VORHAUS: Well, sure. He's human. We have all failings. We all want to live forever. We all want to be young. Anyone who has had plastic surgery or who works very hard on their body or on their mind or on their spirit to stay youthful has a little bit of Michael Jackson in them.
(CROSSTALK)
VORHAUS: But he's a 45-year-old man who is sleeping with children. And that speaks to something else.
RUSSELL: Yes, I would have to disagree, though, with -- I don't know that Michael Jackson needs to pull a Rosie O'Donnell right now and sell this directly to the fans and to the press and to the media.
I think that he needs to listen to his legal advisers and listen to what they tell him. I also wonder who is around Michael Jackson. I wonder if there's anyone who truly loves him or, also, doesn't care enough about the paycheck to be honest with him and give him frank advice, like the kind of advice that you're trying to give him. I just have to wonder, after the first allegations, why someone didn't sit Michael Jackson down and say, listen, I know in your heart what you are doing is innocent, but to the rest of the world, here on planet Earth, grown men sleeping with children looks bad. And you are setting yourself up.
(CROSSTALK)
VORHAUS: Karen, there are a lot of people...
PHILLIPS: Robbie, she brings up a good point, though. Just take, for example, this interview that he did on British television. Remember this documentary.
VORHAUS: Right. Of course. Sure.
PHILLIPS: And listen to these quotes. He says: Oh, we go to sleep. I put the fireplace on. I give them hot milk. We have cookies. It's very charming. It's very sweet. It's what the whole world should do. He talks about: Yes, I let them sleep in my bed. It's nothing sexual. Everyone should share their bed with someone.
(CROSSTALK)
VORHAUS: I agree.
(CROSSTALK)
RUSSELL: He's very naive.
PHILLIPS: Well, is he naive?
VORHAUS: Yes.
PHILLIPS: Has he got some other sort of psychological issue going on?
VORHAUS: Yes.
PHILLIPS: Or is there this group of people around him that just really don't care?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: They say, this is Michael Jackson. He has got a lot of money. I'm going to do whatever he tells me to do.
VORHAUS: Well, first of all, let me go back to what Karen is saying about doing a Rosie O'Donnell.
This certainly is not the time to do a sit-down with a big smile and to say, here's who I am. But it is certainly time for him to come forward and start taking responsibility and demonstrating boundaries. I also agree with Karen when she says, who are these people? These are people who obviously care more about money than who care about these children or who care about what Michael Jackson is in fact portraying. It's not a good thing. And he's not getting good counsel.
PHILLIPS: And, Karen, how is that going to affect Michael Jackson in court? Looking at all of these statements that he has made, looking at what has just happened over the last decade, wow.
RUSSELL: Well, I think we can actually draw a little bit of a parallel to the Scott Peterson case.
In addition to having Mark Geragos and sharing him as an attorney, I think a lot of the damaging testimony against Mr. Jackson right now is in his own words, that documentary evidence. I think that probably...
VORHAUS: That's right.
RUSSELL: ... helped inspire the police and it helps inspire maybe the family to move forward, because what he said was so disturbing, although I think he just said it in a naive way.
And I wonder, also, if this will become part of his defense, because he has such a sort of a pure approach to this and says: This is not about sex. This is how I love children. And it's about making -- healing the world of all of these things.
So I wonder if this will help, because you do have to prove the element of -- there's the -- you have to prove intent when you are charging someone with a crime. And I think this is going to go clearly to his intent legally.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: And, Robbie, how deep do you think this is going to get historically? All of a sudden, in the next days, weeks, months, years, are we going to start going back to when the Jackson Five and the relationship among the kids and the relationship with the dad and the mom? And are we going to start having this intense psychological study going on?
VORHAUS: Absolutely, because people want to believe in their heart of hearts that he is innocent, because then no child has been hurt. Then it's only a question of being eccentric, not sick.
And listening to what Karen was saying, it's true. What do you tell your kids? What do you say to your children who watch this? And you say, well, is it OK to sleep with somebody famous, even though there is no sex involved? Of course not. So, we're going to be looking at the 1993 incident. We're going to be seeing continued pictures of him holding his own children over a balcony. We're going to get into the discussion of what actually happened here.
I think that Karen could tell us better than anyone else, there's got to be a lot of evidence that these people have against him.
PHILLIPS: Let's talk about the evidence, Karen.
RUSSELL: Well, I think there's two things.
I think the first thing is, let's look at the first set of allegations. I think that sort of cuts both ways. I think, on the one hand, I think people will say, well, where there's smoke, there's fire, and this makes me think that Michael Jackson is guilty.
On the other hand, if you look at the family, and the family knows, gee, the last time someone made these accusations against Michael Jackson, they walked away with between $20 million and $25 million.
VORHAUS: That's right.
RUSSELL: And that, I think, is really disturbing. When you are dealing with molestation, there actually may not have to necessarily be a lot more testimony -- more evidence than the actual testimony, because if you think about abuse like this, it's usually a one-on-one situation. There may not be other witnesses. But you would want to maybe have physical evidence. You may want to have a videotape. You may want to have letters. And we don't know what they picked up there. They had the forensics truck there.
So is there DNA that they're looking for? So there's a lot more. I also want to know about the kid's story. When did he -- when did the incident occur?
VORHAUS: That's right.
RUSSELL: When did he tell his story? Were there outcry witnesses? And how long did this whole process take? And I think we're going to have to know about that.
And even though we are very gentle an, rightfully so, with kids when we have them on the stand, he will be subject to cross- examination. And so credibility will be an issue.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: Well, and the DA mentioning yesterday, too, hey, if there are any other alleged victims out there, come forward, speak now.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: Why do you think he said that? Is he trying to bolster his case? Is he saying, this is the opportunity now?
RUSSELL: I think it makes me think that maybe he doesn't have other kids. And so that, to me, makes me think that maybe it's a weaker case, and this is a one-off, and maybe there aren't other complaining witnesses lined up.
PHILLIPS: Robbie, is Michael Jackson's career really on the edge here?
VORHAUS: Oh, it is tainted. It is teetering.
And he needs to come clean. He needs to stand up straight. He needs to come out of Never Neverland. And he has got to -- whether he does it through spokespeople or he does it himself, he has got to come clean. He has got to demonstrate boundaries.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: Robbie, hold your thought there. Robbie, hold you're thought.
Right now, we are seeing a live picture from Santa Barbara County Airport. It looks like a caravan here taking place, a black SUV-type truck. Charles Feldman there on the tarmac.
What do you know, Charles? Is this the car that has Michael Jackson?
CHARLES FELDMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it certainly looks like a good bus trip, because they're passing right in front of me. There are one, two, police cars. One is sheriff's county. And one is the airport.
There's only one gate we can get out? I'm being told -- all right. But was that Michael Jackson in there?
In any event, they just a little -- as you saw, a caravan of cars went speeding past me, and at least one airport security car and one what appeared to be Santa Barbara County Sheriff's car. So, whoever was in that caravan, they were in a hurry to leave. And it was someone important, because they have a police escort.
PHILLIPS: Yes, and, Charles, we're watching the live picture right now, seeing the Santa Barbara County Sheriff's car, the airport patrol car, and a couple other cars there in this caravan. The helo right now via KCAL, KCBS following this convoy. We're seeing a black SUV with tinted-out windows. It seems to be now via KABC. We're taking a closer shot via our affiliate KABC out of Los Angeles, a tighter shot on the black SUV with tinted windows.
If you start piecing everything together, when do you ever see a caravan like this coming out of Santa Barbara County Airport? We're going to continue to follow this shot, follow this caravan, and see if indeed if it's headed to the sheriff's department.
Yes? You...
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Why don't we do -- maybe we can do a little split screen here and we can sort of follow this along, satellite imagery from our friends at Keyhole.com.
The airport, basically, it's only five miles and change, 5.33 miles. Take a little access road, Moffett Place (ph), 217 North, to the 101 South, down the 101 South and right onto Caya Royal (ph), not a long journey. And we're going to see if that route of that six- vehicle convoy -- although it looks like a few cars, those probably associated with the airport, have peeled off -- will follow the route that we're showing you right now, which ultimately brings us to the destination, which is this sheriff's office.
Let's bring -- Mike Brooks is at the sheriff's office. We have been saying along, Mike, that this is a routine booking.
MIKE BROOKS, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes.
O'BRIEN: Well, routine is probably not the best word today, given the coverage we're giving it, but, nevertheless, a booking. Is it possible that there will be an attempt by authorities to interrogate Mr. Jackson? BROOKS: Well, there's always that possibility. When he's brought here, Miles -- he is in police custody now. A police deputy from the sheriff's department told us that he is in police custody right now en route to the booking facility.
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: So to be clear, what we're watching right now, technically, is he under arrest right now?
BROOKS: Yes, he is. If he is in police custody, he would be under arrest.
So he would be brought here to the booking facility. And as a former investigator, I can tell you that, when we got someone in custody, we would want to talk to them. So, again, he has -- he's going to be Mirandized, which he has a right to remain silence. But as the investigators would probably want -- the investigators would want to talk to him.
But he has the right to stop talking to them at any time, because he will have an attorney with him, most likely. He will most likely have lawyered up. And he may say nothing at all, Miles, but he could give police a statement as to the charges today.
O'BRIEN: Well, now, when you -- the police term is lawyered up. And, of course, he is lawyered up to the nth degree here, to the likes of Mark Geragos. Could you -- can you think of a situation where Mr. Geragos would advise his client, Mr. Jackson, to say anything to the authorities there?
BROOKS: Well, he could. He could say something to the authorities. If it gets into accusatory questioning, gets into a heavy interrogation, he could just say, stop. We don't want to answer any other questions. He has that right. But he will be Mirandized should the questioning start to go down that road.
O'BRIEN: All right.
BROOKS: But, again, he has that right. And as an investigator, I'd want to ask him a couple questions about it -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: All right, so this entire process, of course, heavily dependent on what comes out on what you just discussed and the possibility of some sort of interrogation.
BROOKS: Right.
O'BRIEN: This entire process doesn't take that long, does it?
BROOKS: No.
The booking process itself, the initial paperwork is basically your name, address, date of birth, place of birth, those kinds of things. And the photographing and fingerprinting shouldn't take that long. Now, if they get into any kind of line of questioning, any interview, initial interview of Michael Jackson, then it could take longer. But the initial booking should not take that long.
And, again, he will post bail and then be released, depending on if the investigators want to talk to him about the charges -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: Now, I believe this convoy is in fact headed south on the 101 right now, which is right in the direction of where you are right now.
Mike Brooks, it's kind of unusual in this case, in that we already know the bail, $3 million. There's no bail hearing subsequent to his booking. Is that unusual?
BROOKS: Well, we were discussing this a little bit earlier. And things are done a little bit differently here in California.
As I was saying earlier, in other jurisdictions, for instance, in Washington, D.C. and Virginia, most likely, you would be held overnight. If you were brought in at this time of the day, you would maybe get -- be able to make the cutoff, as they say, to get to arraignment court for your initial appearance and bail hearing. But here in California, you are allowed to post bail and then come back for an initial appearance and arraignment in about a 30-day period.
So, again, not unusual for the way that things are done here in California at all -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: So, will a date be set today? Or is it premature a date be set for that first appearance, that arraignment?
BROOKS: They could give him an initial appearance today. Most likely, that will be done. How long a period that will be, that remains unknown.
There also could be other things with the bail. He also -- as we said earlier, he will have to give up his passport. It was asked yesterday at the press conference whether they thought he was a flight risk. They said they don't think he's a flight risk. But it's normal procedure to turn over your passport. There may be other things that -- with the bail, conditions of bail, that they may make him do. What those are, we may hear from the sheriff's office later on exactly what conditions he is under as he's released on bail -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: We're getting into Karen Russell's turf. I think she's still with us.
Karen, are you still there?
We were talking about that whole issue of the possibility that police would like to interrogate Mr. Jackson at this juncture. What would your advice be if you were the counselor in this case?
RUSSELL: Well, he -- I would make sure that I would have Mark Geragos right there at my side. I don't imagine that he is going to have much to say.
I think that, really, the most important issue for Mr. Jackson is going to be whether or not he is going to be allowed to keep his children. And that's going to be up for a judge to decide. And so that will play out. I think that's going to be -- I don't think he's going to care whether or not he can go to Vegas or leave the country. I think he's going to care whether or not his children are going to be taken away from him.
I think the other legal issue that we need to...
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: Before you get into that other legal issue, let's ask about that for just a moment. That would be entirely separate from an arraignment on the charges, correct? That would be handled in an entirely different jurisdiction?
RUSSELL: Are you asking me or are you asking him?
O'BRIEN: I'm asking you, Karen, yes.
RUSSELL: Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
O'BRIEN: Yes. How does that who adjudicates that?
RUSSELL: I don't know the nuts and bolts in California exactly. And maybe the other guest can help us with that. But I do know that that's going to be part of this initial process, because, if is he a danger to this child, under the theory, he might be a danger to his own children.
O'BRIEN: OK.
Now, that other legal issue you wanted to bring up, go ahead.
RUSSELL: The other legal issue I wanted to bring out is compelling kid's testimony. And I think they got up yesterday and said there's this new law, kind of like the Michael Jackson law, that is going to make sure that defendants can't sort of buy off children.
And I think, actually, that the police were wrong about their interpretation of this law. And beyond that, let's even say they were right. I can't imagine a DA compelling a child if he does not want to testify. I mean, what is the option? Can you hold a child in contempt and put them in jail? So I think that that's going to be an interesting thing to watch as well. He says that this kid is going to work with them.
But if he decides at some point down the road not to, I don't know how you make him testify.
O'BRIEN: CNN legal analyst Jeff Toobin also with us.
Jeff, as a parent, I can't imagine anybody trying to compel an 11-year-old, my 11-year-old son, to testify in court. I'm sure a lot of people would have problems with that.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: No, it can't be done under California law.
In fact, the law is broader than that. You can't even compel an adult victim of a sexual assault to testify. That statement by the district attorney is simply wrong. There can be no compulsion.
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: Well, clarify this, then, because the law did change after this '93 incident. And, supposedly, the law changed sort of in direct response to the way that was sort of settled outside the public eye.
TOOBIN: It did.
And it changed in a very specific way, but it is not about compelling testimony. What the law changed was that, if a child under 12 had previously given a statement, either to the police or to a therapist or under conditions that the judge feels indicates that the statement is reliable, that statement can be introduced in court, even if the child subsequently refuses to testify.
O'BRIEN: So that's as good as testimony, in other words.
TOOBIN: Exactly.
O'BRIEN: It doesn't need -- but that -- there's no ability to cross-examine in that case.
TOOBIN: Right. That's -- that's the real struggle in these issues. That's -- those are the competing interests, is that we want defendants in child molestation cases and in any case to have the ability to defend themselves.
And that usually includes cross-examining witnesses. But we also want to respect and take care of these especially vulnerable witnesses, that is, children who are victims. The compromise that was reached in the California legislature after this '93 situation was allowing these prior statements to be admitted, if the judge finds them reliable and if child victim was under 12 at the time he or she made the statement.
O'BRIEN: Now, and it's worth pointing out here that there is quite a bit of legal precedent out here for children testifying and that testimony being coaxed by adults and charges being brought which ultimately proved to be wrong. So, is there some skepticism about this sort of testimony?
TOOBIN: Especially in child molestation situations.
One of the most notorious injustices in recent American history in the 1980s was the McMartin preschool case, where the teachers and administrators
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: I'll tell you what, Jeff. Jeff, they're arriving there now.
TOOBIN: OK.
O'BRIEN: I want to get back to McMartin, because that's an interesting one to go back to.
Mike Brooks, you're on the scene there. The cars arrived. What are you seeing?
BROOKS: Well, right now, we're looking at a monitor. We are the pool camera for the arrival here. And there's a large number of press helicopters above head here, Miles. So it looks like we're getting pretty close.
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: All right, that appears to be Mark Geragos. We see Mark Geragos there at the center of that focus of attention right there of the media.
Anyway, I'm sorry. Carry on.
BROOKS: Right. He's going in.
PHILLIPS: Here's the other cars.
(CROSSTALK)
BROOKS: Mark Geragos is just -- right, he's just pulled up and arrived at the administrative entrance to the jail and has just gone in.
And we see the car -- some cars starting to pull into the sally port area. So we should have an arrival here very shortly, as we see many press helicopters overseeing. And, again, yesterday, the sheriff said that no civilian vehicles would be allowed into the sally port area leading to the inmate reception center. So, again, as we said, he is in custody of the Santa Barbara County Sheriff's office and should be arriving here momentarily -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: All right. do you have a view of the sally port, Mike Brooks? Because we see a...
BROOKS: I'm looking at a...
O'BRIEN: Oh, that other shot, I think, is better, if we can go back to that other shot there. There we go. It appears this is the shot.
Go ahead, Mike.
BROOKS: I'm looking at a camera of our pool feeds of some cars arriving in the rear sally port entrance of the jail here at the inmate reception center.
Can't see who is getting out. It looks like they are waiting for someone to get out of the vehicle.
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: Somebody is coming out of the vehicle now.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: There he is.
(CROSSTALK)
BROOKS: We see Michael Jackson getting out right now walking into the inmate reception center.
PHILLIPS: He's in handcuffs.
O'BRIEN: I believe he's in handcuffs.
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: Would that be routine, Mike?
BROOKS: Yes. It does look like he is. Yes, it looks like he was in handcuffs, from what I could see. And that is, again, normal procedure once someone is taken into custody of the sheriff's department. Again, it's done for the safety of the officers, but it's done as normal procedure.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: And, Mike, here is what was interesting.
Talk to us about this from a law enforcement perspective. The focus was on this black SUV with the tinted-out windows. This car that he arrived in, actually, undercover sheriffs there in a car not even -- no tinted windows, obviously trying -- a common tactic to try and avoid the press.
BROOKS: Well, it's not only avoiding the press here. It's also for protection of the person who is going to be -- I mean, we know how -- the notoriety of Michael Jackson. There are a lot of people out in California and other places that may try to do -- would like to do harm to Michael Jackson, for whatever reason.
So, again, they do that once you are taken into custody by the sheriff's department. They are responsible for your safety. So they want to make sure that Michael Jackson was delivered here to the jail as safely as possible. And they probably did use a decoy vehicle, thinking that people may follow that should they try to do him harm. Again, it's not just to avoid the press, but it's for the safety of the person in custody -- Kyra.
O'BRIEN: Jeff Toobin, Jeff Toobin, why handcuffs? Is that something, as an attorney -- you would think Mark Geragos would successfully ask the DA to avoid the handcuffs. That's just routine?
TOOBIN: ... vary about that.
But I think must jurisdictions, if you are in custody, if you are in a police vehicle, you are in handcuffs. That's just the rule. And, oftentimes, an attorney will ask to be in the same vehicle with his client. Sometimes, it's granted. Sometimes it's not. This -- here, if Mark Geragos asked -- and I'm sure he asked -- they probably told him, no, that's not our policy.
Geragos almost certainly instructed the officers: Don't ask him any questions. He refuses to answer your questions. Don't even ask. That request, I suspect, would be honored, because that is generally the code of how it's -- how police officers work.
But the handcuff issue, it is an officer's safety. And it's a routine issue that, whenever someone is in a police vehicle, they're handcuffed.
O'BRIEN: All right, and you don't think that an officer, an investigator, might be tempted to ask a question in this case, or would they not take that risk?
TOOBIN: I certainly can't answer whether they're tempted. Sure, they might be tempted.
But when an attorney specifically instructs a police officer, don't question my client, and the client indicates that he doesn't want to answer questions, it's considered improper practice to ask a question. Does it ever happen? Sure, it happens anyway.
And if Michael Jackson went off on some voluntary monologue in the car that, that would certainly be admissible, if he just simply blurted something out. But, usually, the practice is, if the lawyer says, I don't want to talk and if the defendant says, he doesn't want to talk, they don't question.
O'BRIEN: All right. OK, Jeff Toobin and the rest, stand by.
Let's go to Kyra and one of our other people on the scene there.
PHILLIPS: Well, we have been talking -- of course, we have our spin folks that have been us as this story has been developing. I want to bring Robbie Vorhaus back. He's president and CEO of the Vorhaus Public Relations.
Let's just talk about these images, Robbie, the handcuffs, the decoy car, possibly. We were all focused on the black SUV with the tinted-out windows. It ends up being Mark Geragos, Michael Jackson's attorney representing him here. And so -- and then now we are seeing the pictures of Michael Jackson being led in with the sheriff's deputies kind of in a back way in an unmarked car, no tinted windows, nothing fancy. And then we see him getting out with the handcuffs.
Let's talk about these images.
VORHAUS: Well, I think there was something very interesting about when Michael Jackson got out of that car and he was in handcuffs. And if you saw, he made a hand motion, almost lifting the handcuffs up.
To me, that almost seems as though he was telling us that he was going to be telling his story as a victim. And he wanted the world to see. There was no tinted windows. He just pulled up. And there, he lifted his hands up behind him to show us the handcuffs. I think that we're going to see that he's going to say, from the very beginning, that he is the victim and that he is completely innocent. And that's the story he's going to tell.
PHILLIPS: All right, now, so you think he sort of planned this? Are you saying he wanted this type of arrival?
VORHAUS: Oh, look at the way the planes landed. Look at the way that we're covering this story. This is not a rock star biting the head off of a bat. This is not some celebrity who gets arrested because of being in a traffic violation.
This is one of the most well-known people in all of the world, who has had a series of incidents that are very typical to what we are seeing today. And he's under arrest for child molestation. And I believe that Michael is going to want to demonstrate that he is innocent, that Never Neverland and the way that he lives is just his lifestyle, and that this is an overzealous district attorney or whoever he wants to say is behind this, because his record album just came out. He is making a comeback. He's so popular around the world.
I think that's what we're going to see.
PHILLIPS: Even if, I mean, this is, as Mike Brooks was telling us -- he was a former police officer -- this is is standard operating procedure here. I mean, you put the individual accused in handcuffs, read him his rights and bring him in.
Something interest, though, he stops here in the door. He says something and then the sheriff's deputy leads him in. Sort of - it's like he's stopped at the door and asked permission if he could enter. Obviously, this going smoothly. He's not fighting.
He's being very cooperative. He did what he was told. But you would him to do that in a situation like this.
VORHAUS: Well, think in a situation like this, listening to Karen, it's very clear. Any public relations, any story to be told, we should stand behind the law, the legal professionals, and let this play out so that no matter whether he is guilty or he's not, that the law is held out and that process is done correctly.
Now, again, this is not just anybody who is under arrest. It's Michael Jackson. And I think that -- and it isn't the first time. And I don't think that this is just a normal arrest.
I mean, you have two private jets coming in up, you have a caravan. You have -- look at all of the coverage. We haven't come off this story.
PHILLIPS: I'm curious, Robbie, would you want to take on this PR campaign?
VORHAUS: Well, you know, PR is story telling. If Michael Jackson wants to come out and tell the truth and wants to be in the new model of public relations in storytelling -- and that's to raise, not lower, it's to help people understand why he is this way -- I believe that he has some psychological problem. I mean, he does not demonstrate boundaries.
If he wants to say, you know what? I have been living in Never Neverland, and now it's time to grow up, sure, he could do a lot of good. He could help a lot of people.
On the other hand, if he's looking for someone to lie, if he's looking for someone to cover up, if he's looking for someone to distract the public and distract the press, he wouldn't want to hire us.
PHILLIPS: Robbie Vorhaus, one of our key PR individuals coming on and talking about the whole issue of spin and imaging as this case rolls on. Robby, thank you.
VORHAUS: Thanks, Kyra.
PHILLIPS: It's been an interesting day. Now Michael Jackson surrendering.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired November 20, 2003 - 15:01 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: We're going to bring in our spin team. Joining us out of New York, Robbie Vorhaus. He's the president and CEO of Vorhaus Public Relations. Also, Karen Russell joining us, a family attorney based in Seattle, Washington.
I know that both of you have been following this breaking news as we have been following it since this afternoon. Maybe I should sort of get your overall -- what is your thinking at this point?
Karen, let's start with you.
KAREN RUSSELL, ATTORNEY: Well, I think that, before we all rush to judgment, we should look at what the case against Michael Jackson actually is and what -- sort of what we don't know yet.
And we don't really know, beyond the charge, what sort of other evidence there is besides the testimony. So, we don't know if there are other witnesses. We don't know if there's physical evidence. So I think it's early to tell exactly how hot the water is that Michael Jackson is in.
PHILLIPS: Well, definitely a challenge to prove intent, if you look at the overall aspects of this case, Karen, right?
RUSSELL: Absolutely. Absolutely.
And I think the other thing that we have to look at is about -- let's look at the parents for a second and what sort of parents, given the allegations in the '90s, would allow their child to sleep with an adult male. I also think we have to look at the press conference yesterday and take the DA and the sheriff's to task for starting this off with a circus bang, as it were.
PHILLIPS: And, Robbie, I know you, of all individuals, can talk about how the heck he and his team will spin him out of this one, I guess we could say. A lot of questions to be answered, a lot of finger-pointing that I am sure is going to take place.
ROBBIE VORHAUS, VORHAUS & COMPANY: That's right. That's right.
PHILLIPS: You do. You wonder, who are these kids? Who are their parents? How can this even be allowed to happen in the first place?
VORHAUS: Well, that's right. And you have heard me say it before, but truth really is the ultimate spin here. I mean, how did these children get to the ranch? How did they get into this situation? How did Michael Jackson get them into this situation. Look, he has affected so many people's lives for so long. I agree entirely with Karen, who is saying, let's kind of step back and look at this story.
If Michael Jackson chooses to grow up in front of our very eyes and come out of Neverland and say: "Look, I'm eccentric. I'm not perverted. I'm eccentric. And here's how all of this happened," we have got a much different story than if he decides to stand behind handlers.
PHILLIPS: All right, so, you're saying, sort of come clean. Just go ahead, sit down, have the interview with Larry King or Barbara Walters or whomever and just get this...
VORHAUS: Larry King, of course.
PHILLIPS: Of course. Give this heartfelt interview. You're saying that that could make a huge difference here?
VORHAUS: Well, sure. He's human. We have all failings. We all want to live forever. We all want to be young. Anyone who has had plastic surgery or who works very hard on their body or on their mind or on their spirit to stay youthful has a little bit of Michael Jackson in them.
(CROSSTALK)
VORHAUS: But he's a 45-year-old man who is sleeping with children. And that speaks to something else.
RUSSELL: Yes, I would have to disagree, though, with -- I don't know that Michael Jackson needs to pull a Rosie O'Donnell right now and sell this directly to the fans and to the press and to the media.
I think that he needs to listen to his legal advisers and listen to what they tell him. I also wonder who is around Michael Jackson. I wonder if there's anyone who truly loves him or, also, doesn't care enough about the paycheck to be honest with him and give him frank advice, like the kind of advice that you're trying to give him. I just have to wonder, after the first allegations, why someone didn't sit Michael Jackson down and say, listen, I know in your heart what you are doing is innocent, but to the rest of the world, here on planet Earth, grown men sleeping with children looks bad. And you are setting yourself up.
(CROSSTALK)
VORHAUS: Karen, there are a lot of people...
PHILLIPS: Robbie, she brings up a good point, though. Just take, for example, this interview that he did on British television. Remember this documentary.
VORHAUS: Right. Of course. Sure.
PHILLIPS: And listen to these quotes. He says: Oh, we go to sleep. I put the fireplace on. I give them hot milk. We have cookies. It's very charming. It's very sweet. It's what the whole world should do. He talks about: Yes, I let them sleep in my bed. It's nothing sexual. Everyone should share their bed with someone.
(CROSSTALK)
VORHAUS: I agree.
(CROSSTALK)
RUSSELL: He's very naive.
PHILLIPS: Well, is he naive?
VORHAUS: Yes.
PHILLIPS: Has he got some other sort of psychological issue going on?
VORHAUS: Yes.
PHILLIPS: Or is there this group of people around him that just really don't care?
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: They say, this is Michael Jackson. He has got a lot of money. I'm going to do whatever he tells me to do.
VORHAUS: Well, first of all, let me go back to what Karen is saying about doing a Rosie O'Donnell.
This certainly is not the time to do a sit-down with a big smile and to say, here's who I am. But it is certainly time for him to come forward and start taking responsibility and demonstrating boundaries. I also agree with Karen when she says, who are these people? These are people who obviously care more about money than who care about these children or who care about what Michael Jackson is in fact portraying. It's not a good thing. And he's not getting good counsel.
PHILLIPS: And, Karen, how is that going to affect Michael Jackson in court? Looking at all of these statements that he has made, looking at what has just happened over the last decade, wow.
RUSSELL: Well, I think we can actually draw a little bit of a parallel to the Scott Peterson case.
In addition to having Mark Geragos and sharing him as an attorney, I think a lot of the damaging testimony against Mr. Jackson right now is in his own words, that documentary evidence. I think that probably...
VORHAUS: That's right.
RUSSELL: ... helped inspire the police and it helps inspire maybe the family to move forward, because what he said was so disturbing, although I think he just said it in a naive way.
And I wonder, also, if this will become part of his defense, because he has such a sort of a pure approach to this and says: This is not about sex. This is how I love children. And it's about making -- healing the world of all of these things.
So I wonder if this will help, because you do have to prove the element of -- there's the -- you have to prove intent when you are charging someone with a crime. And I think this is going to go clearly to his intent legally.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: And, Robbie, how deep do you think this is going to get historically? All of a sudden, in the next days, weeks, months, years, are we going to start going back to when the Jackson Five and the relationship among the kids and the relationship with the dad and the mom? And are we going to start having this intense psychological study going on?
VORHAUS: Absolutely, because people want to believe in their heart of hearts that he is innocent, because then no child has been hurt. Then it's only a question of being eccentric, not sick.
And listening to what Karen was saying, it's true. What do you tell your kids? What do you say to your children who watch this? And you say, well, is it OK to sleep with somebody famous, even though there is no sex involved? Of course not. So, we're going to be looking at the 1993 incident. We're going to be seeing continued pictures of him holding his own children over a balcony. We're going to get into the discussion of what actually happened here.
I think that Karen could tell us better than anyone else, there's got to be a lot of evidence that these people have against him.
PHILLIPS: Let's talk about the evidence, Karen.
RUSSELL: Well, I think there's two things.
I think the first thing is, let's look at the first set of allegations. I think that sort of cuts both ways. I think, on the one hand, I think people will say, well, where there's smoke, there's fire, and this makes me think that Michael Jackson is guilty.
On the other hand, if you look at the family, and the family knows, gee, the last time someone made these accusations against Michael Jackson, they walked away with between $20 million and $25 million.
VORHAUS: That's right.
RUSSELL: And that, I think, is really disturbing. When you are dealing with molestation, there actually may not have to necessarily be a lot more testimony -- more evidence than the actual testimony, because if you think about abuse like this, it's usually a one-on-one situation. There may not be other witnesses. But you would want to maybe have physical evidence. You may want to have a videotape. You may want to have letters. And we don't know what they picked up there. They had the forensics truck there.
So is there DNA that they're looking for? So there's a lot more. I also want to know about the kid's story. When did he -- when did the incident occur?
VORHAUS: That's right.
RUSSELL: When did he tell his story? Were there outcry witnesses? And how long did this whole process take? And I think we're going to have to know about that.
And even though we are very gentle an, rightfully so, with kids when we have them on the stand, he will be subject to cross- examination. And so credibility will be an issue.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: Well, and the DA mentioning yesterday, too, hey, if there are any other alleged victims out there, come forward, speak now.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: Why do you think he said that? Is he trying to bolster his case? Is he saying, this is the opportunity now?
RUSSELL: I think it makes me think that maybe he doesn't have other kids. And so that, to me, makes me think that maybe it's a weaker case, and this is a one-off, and maybe there aren't other complaining witnesses lined up.
PHILLIPS: Robbie, is Michael Jackson's career really on the edge here?
VORHAUS: Oh, it is tainted. It is teetering.
And he needs to come clean. He needs to stand up straight. He needs to come out of Never Neverland. And he has got to -- whether he does it through spokespeople or he does it himself, he has got to come clean. He has got to demonstrate boundaries.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: Robbie, hold your thought there. Robbie, hold you're thought.
Right now, we are seeing a live picture from Santa Barbara County Airport. It looks like a caravan here taking place, a black SUV-type truck. Charles Feldman there on the tarmac.
What do you know, Charles? Is this the car that has Michael Jackson?
CHARLES FELDMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it certainly looks like a good bus trip, because they're passing right in front of me. There are one, two, police cars. One is sheriff's county. And one is the airport.
There's only one gate we can get out? I'm being told -- all right. But was that Michael Jackson in there?
In any event, they just a little -- as you saw, a caravan of cars went speeding past me, and at least one airport security car and one what appeared to be Santa Barbara County Sheriff's car. So, whoever was in that caravan, they were in a hurry to leave. And it was someone important, because they have a police escort.
PHILLIPS: Yes, and, Charles, we're watching the live picture right now, seeing the Santa Barbara County Sheriff's car, the airport patrol car, and a couple other cars there in this caravan. The helo right now via KCAL, KCBS following this convoy. We're seeing a black SUV with tinted-out windows. It seems to be now via KABC. We're taking a closer shot via our affiliate KABC out of Los Angeles, a tighter shot on the black SUV with tinted windows.
If you start piecing everything together, when do you ever see a caravan like this coming out of Santa Barbara County Airport? We're going to continue to follow this shot, follow this caravan, and see if indeed if it's headed to the sheriff's department.
Yes? You...
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Why don't we do -- maybe we can do a little split screen here and we can sort of follow this along, satellite imagery from our friends at Keyhole.com.
The airport, basically, it's only five miles and change, 5.33 miles. Take a little access road, Moffett Place (ph), 217 North, to the 101 South, down the 101 South and right onto Caya Royal (ph), not a long journey. And we're going to see if that route of that six- vehicle convoy -- although it looks like a few cars, those probably associated with the airport, have peeled off -- will follow the route that we're showing you right now, which ultimately brings us to the destination, which is this sheriff's office.
Let's bring -- Mike Brooks is at the sheriff's office. We have been saying along, Mike, that this is a routine booking.
MIKE BROOKS, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes.
O'BRIEN: Well, routine is probably not the best word today, given the coverage we're giving it, but, nevertheless, a booking. Is it possible that there will be an attempt by authorities to interrogate Mr. Jackson? BROOKS: Well, there's always that possibility. When he's brought here, Miles -- he is in police custody now. A police deputy from the sheriff's department told us that he is in police custody right now en route to the booking facility.
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: So to be clear, what we're watching right now, technically, is he under arrest right now?
BROOKS: Yes, he is. If he is in police custody, he would be under arrest.
So he would be brought here to the booking facility. And as a former investigator, I can tell you that, when we got someone in custody, we would want to talk to them. So, again, he has -- he's going to be Mirandized, which he has a right to remain silence. But as the investigators would probably want -- the investigators would want to talk to him.
But he has the right to stop talking to them at any time, because he will have an attorney with him, most likely. He will most likely have lawyered up. And he may say nothing at all, Miles, but he could give police a statement as to the charges today.
O'BRIEN: Well, now, when you -- the police term is lawyered up. And, of course, he is lawyered up to the nth degree here, to the likes of Mark Geragos. Could you -- can you think of a situation where Mr. Geragos would advise his client, Mr. Jackson, to say anything to the authorities there?
BROOKS: Well, he could. He could say something to the authorities. If it gets into accusatory questioning, gets into a heavy interrogation, he could just say, stop. We don't want to answer any other questions. He has that right. But he will be Mirandized should the questioning start to go down that road.
O'BRIEN: All right.
BROOKS: But, again, he has that right. And as an investigator, I'd want to ask him a couple questions about it -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: All right, so this entire process, of course, heavily dependent on what comes out on what you just discussed and the possibility of some sort of interrogation.
BROOKS: Right.
O'BRIEN: This entire process doesn't take that long, does it?
BROOKS: No.
The booking process itself, the initial paperwork is basically your name, address, date of birth, place of birth, those kinds of things. And the photographing and fingerprinting shouldn't take that long. Now, if they get into any kind of line of questioning, any interview, initial interview of Michael Jackson, then it could take longer. But the initial booking should not take that long.
And, again, he will post bail and then be released, depending on if the investigators want to talk to him about the charges -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: Now, I believe this convoy is in fact headed south on the 101 right now, which is right in the direction of where you are right now.
Mike Brooks, it's kind of unusual in this case, in that we already know the bail, $3 million. There's no bail hearing subsequent to his booking. Is that unusual?
BROOKS: Well, we were discussing this a little bit earlier. And things are done a little bit differently here in California.
As I was saying earlier, in other jurisdictions, for instance, in Washington, D.C. and Virginia, most likely, you would be held overnight. If you were brought in at this time of the day, you would maybe get -- be able to make the cutoff, as they say, to get to arraignment court for your initial appearance and bail hearing. But here in California, you are allowed to post bail and then come back for an initial appearance and arraignment in about a 30-day period.
So, again, not unusual for the way that things are done here in California at all -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: So, will a date be set today? Or is it premature a date be set for that first appearance, that arraignment?
BROOKS: They could give him an initial appearance today. Most likely, that will be done. How long a period that will be, that remains unknown.
There also could be other things with the bail. He also -- as we said earlier, he will have to give up his passport. It was asked yesterday at the press conference whether they thought he was a flight risk. They said they don't think he's a flight risk. But it's normal procedure to turn over your passport. There may be other things that -- with the bail, conditions of bail, that they may make him do. What those are, we may hear from the sheriff's office later on exactly what conditions he is under as he's released on bail -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: We're getting into Karen Russell's turf. I think she's still with us.
Karen, are you still there?
We were talking about that whole issue of the possibility that police would like to interrogate Mr. Jackson at this juncture. What would your advice be if you were the counselor in this case?
RUSSELL: Well, he -- I would make sure that I would have Mark Geragos right there at my side. I don't imagine that he is going to have much to say.
I think that, really, the most important issue for Mr. Jackson is going to be whether or not he is going to be allowed to keep his children. And that's going to be up for a judge to decide. And so that will play out. I think that's going to be -- I don't think he's going to care whether or not he can go to Vegas or leave the country. I think he's going to care whether or not his children are going to be taken away from him.
I think the other legal issue that we need to...
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: Before you get into that other legal issue, let's ask about that for just a moment. That would be entirely separate from an arraignment on the charges, correct? That would be handled in an entirely different jurisdiction?
RUSSELL: Are you asking me or are you asking him?
O'BRIEN: I'm asking you, Karen, yes.
RUSSELL: Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
O'BRIEN: Yes. How does that who adjudicates that?
RUSSELL: I don't know the nuts and bolts in California exactly. And maybe the other guest can help us with that. But I do know that that's going to be part of this initial process, because, if is he a danger to this child, under the theory, he might be a danger to his own children.
O'BRIEN: OK.
Now, that other legal issue you wanted to bring up, go ahead.
RUSSELL: The other legal issue I wanted to bring out is compelling kid's testimony. And I think they got up yesterday and said there's this new law, kind of like the Michael Jackson law, that is going to make sure that defendants can't sort of buy off children.
And I think, actually, that the police were wrong about their interpretation of this law. And beyond that, let's even say they were right. I can't imagine a DA compelling a child if he does not want to testify. I mean, what is the option? Can you hold a child in contempt and put them in jail? So I think that that's going to be an interesting thing to watch as well. He says that this kid is going to work with them.
But if he decides at some point down the road not to, I don't know how you make him testify.
O'BRIEN: CNN legal analyst Jeff Toobin also with us.
Jeff, as a parent, I can't imagine anybody trying to compel an 11-year-old, my 11-year-old son, to testify in court. I'm sure a lot of people would have problems with that.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: No, it can't be done under California law.
In fact, the law is broader than that. You can't even compel an adult victim of a sexual assault to testify. That statement by the district attorney is simply wrong. There can be no compulsion.
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: Well, clarify this, then, because the law did change after this '93 incident. And, supposedly, the law changed sort of in direct response to the way that was sort of settled outside the public eye.
TOOBIN: It did.
And it changed in a very specific way, but it is not about compelling testimony. What the law changed was that, if a child under 12 had previously given a statement, either to the police or to a therapist or under conditions that the judge feels indicates that the statement is reliable, that statement can be introduced in court, even if the child subsequently refuses to testify.
O'BRIEN: So that's as good as testimony, in other words.
TOOBIN: Exactly.
O'BRIEN: It doesn't need -- but that -- there's no ability to cross-examine in that case.
TOOBIN: Right. That's -- that's the real struggle in these issues. That's -- those are the competing interests, is that we want defendants in child molestation cases and in any case to have the ability to defend themselves.
And that usually includes cross-examining witnesses. But we also want to respect and take care of these especially vulnerable witnesses, that is, children who are victims. The compromise that was reached in the California legislature after this '93 situation was allowing these prior statements to be admitted, if the judge finds them reliable and if child victim was under 12 at the time he or she made the statement.
O'BRIEN: Now, and it's worth pointing out here that there is quite a bit of legal precedent out here for children testifying and that testimony being coaxed by adults and charges being brought which ultimately proved to be wrong. So, is there some skepticism about this sort of testimony?
TOOBIN: Especially in child molestation situations.
One of the most notorious injustices in recent American history in the 1980s was the McMartin preschool case, where the teachers and administrators
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: I'll tell you what, Jeff. Jeff, they're arriving there now.
TOOBIN: OK.
O'BRIEN: I want to get back to McMartin, because that's an interesting one to go back to.
Mike Brooks, you're on the scene there. The cars arrived. What are you seeing?
BROOKS: Well, right now, we're looking at a monitor. We are the pool camera for the arrival here. And there's a large number of press helicopters above head here, Miles. So it looks like we're getting pretty close.
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: All right, that appears to be Mark Geragos. We see Mark Geragos there at the center of that focus of attention right there of the media.
Anyway, I'm sorry. Carry on.
BROOKS: Right. He's going in.
PHILLIPS: Here's the other cars.
(CROSSTALK)
BROOKS: Mark Geragos is just -- right, he's just pulled up and arrived at the administrative entrance to the jail and has just gone in.
And we see the car -- some cars starting to pull into the sally port area. So we should have an arrival here very shortly, as we see many press helicopters overseeing. And, again, yesterday, the sheriff said that no civilian vehicles would be allowed into the sally port area leading to the inmate reception center. So, again, as we said, he is in custody of the Santa Barbara County Sheriff's office and should be arriving here momentarily -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: All right. do you have a view of the sally port, Mike Brooks? Because we see a...
BROOKS: I'm looking at a...
O'BRIEN: Oh, that other shot, I think, is better, if we can go back to that other shot there. There we go. It appears this is the shot.
Go ahead, Mike.
BROOKS: I'm looking at a camera of our pool feeds of some cars arriving in the rear sally port entrance of the jail here at the inmate reception center.
Can't see who is getting out. It looks like they are waiting for someone to get out of the vehicle.
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: Somebody is coming out of the vehicle now.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: There he is.
(CROSSTALK)
BROOKS: We see Michael Jackson getting out right now walking into the inmate reception center.
PHILLIPS: He's in handcuffs.
O'BRIEN: I believe he's in handcuffs.
(CROSSTALK)
O'BRIEN: Would that be routine, Mike?
BROOKS: Yes. It does look like he is. Yes, it looks like he was in handcuffs, from what I could see. And that is, again, normal procedure once someone is taken into custody of the sheriff's department. Again, it's done for the safety of the officers, but it's done as normal procedure.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIPS: And, Mike, here is what was interesting.
Talk to us about this from a law enforcement perspective. The focus was on this black SUV with the tinted-out windows. This car that he arrived in, actually, undercover sheriffs there in a car not even -- no tinted windows, obviously trying -- a common tactic to try and avoid the press.
BROOKS: Well, it's not only avoiding the press here. It's also for protection of the person who is going to be -- I mean, we know how -- the notoriety of Michael Jackson. There are a lot of people out in California and other places that may try to do -- would like to do harm to Michael Jackson, for whatever reason.
So, again, they do that once you are taken into custody by the sheriff's department. They are responsible for your safety. So they want to make sure that Michael Jackson was delivered here to the jail as safely as possible. And they probably did use a decoy vehicle, thinking that people may follow that should they try to do him harm. Again, it's not just to avoid the press, but it's for the safety of the person in custody -- Kyra.
O'BRIEN: Jeff Toobin, Jeff Toobin, why handcuffs? Is that something, as an attorney -- you would think Mark Geragos would successfully ask the DA to avoid the handcuffs. That's just routine?
TOOBIN: ... vary about that.
But I think must jurisdictions, if you are in custody, if you are in a police vehicle, you are in handcuffs. That's just the rule. And, oftentimes, an attorney will ask to be in the same vehicle with his client. Sometimes, it's granted. Sometimes it's not. This -- here, if Mark Geragos asked -- and I'm sure he asked -- they probably told him, no, that's not our policy.
Geragos almost certainly instructed the officers: Don't ask him any questions. He refuses to answer your questions. Don't even ask. That request, I suspect, would be honored, because that is generally the code of how it's -- how police officers work.
But the handcuff issue, it is an officer's safety. And it's a routine issue that, whenever someone is in a police vehicle, they're handcuffed.
O'BRIEN: All right, and you don't think that an officer, an investigator, might be tempted to ask a question in this case, or would they not take that risk?
TOOBIN: I certainly can't answer whether they're tempted. Sure, they might be tempted.
But when an attorney specifically instructs a police officer, don't question my client, and the client indicates that he doesn't want to answer questions, it's considered improper practice to ask a question. Does it ever happen? Sure, it happens anyway.
And if Michael Jackson went off on some voluntary monologue in the car that, that would certainly be admissible, if he just simply blurted something out. But, usually, the practice is, if the lawyer says, I don't want to talk and if the defendant says, he doesn't want to talk, they don't question.
O'BRIEN: All right. OK, Jeff Toobin and the rest, stand by.
Let's go to Kyra and one of our other people on the scene there.
PHILLIPS: Well, we have been talking -- of course, we have our spin folks that have been us as this story has been developing. I want to bring Robbie Vorhaus back. He's president and CEO of the Vorhaus Public Relations.
Let's just talk about these images, Robbie, the handcuffs, the decoy car, possibly. We were all focused on the black SUV with the tinted-out windows. It ends up being Mark Geragos, Michael Jackson's attorney representing him here. And so -- and then now we are seeing the pictures of Michael Jackson being led in with the sheriff's deputies kind of in a back way in an unmarked car, no tinted windows, nothing fancy. And then we see him getting out with the handcuffs.
Let's talk about these images.
VORHAUS: Well, I think there was something very interesting about when Michael Jackson got out of that car and he was in handcuffs. And if you saw, he made a hand motion, almost lifting the handcuffs up.
To me, that almost seems as though he was telling us that he was going to be telling his story as a victim. And he wanted the world to see. There was no tinted windows. He just pulled up. And there, he lifted his hands up behind him to show us the handcuffs. I think that we're going to see that he's going to say, from the very beginning, that he is the victim and that he is completely innocent. And that's the story he's going to tell.
PHILLIPS: All right, now, so you think he sort of planned this? Are you saying he wanted this type of arrival?
VORHAUS: Oh, look at the way the planes landed. Look at the way that we're covering this story. This is not a rock star biting the head off of a bat. This is not some celebrity who gets arrested because of being in a traffic violation.
This is one of the most well-known people in all of the world, who has had a series of incidents that are very typical to what we are seeing today. And he's under arrest for child molestation. And I believe that Michael is going to want to demonstrate that he is innocent, that Never Neverland and the way that he lives is just his lifestyle, and that this is an overzealous district attorney or whoever he wants to say is behind this, because his record album just came out. He is making a comeback. He's so popular around the world.
I think that's what we're going to see.
PHILLIPS: Even if, I mean, this is, as Mike Brooks was telling us -- he was a former police officer -- this is is standard operating procedure here. I mean, you put the individual accused in handcuffs, read him his rights and bring him in.
Something interest, though, he stops here in the door. He says something and then the sheriff's deputy leads him in. Sort of - it's like he's stopped at the door and asked permission if he could enter. Obviously, this going smoothly. He's not fighting.
He's being very cooperative. He did what he was told. But you would him to do that in a situation like this.
VORHAUS: Well, think in a situation like this, listening to Karen, it's very clear. Any public relations, any story to be told, we should stand behind the law, the legal professionals, and let this play out so that no matter whether he is guilty or he's not, that the law is held out and that process is done correctly.
Now, again, this is not just anybody who is under arrest. It's Michael Jackson. And I think that -- and it isn't the first time. And I don't think that this is just a normal arrest.
I mean, you have two private jets coming in up, you have a caravan. You have -- look at all of the coverage. We haven't come off this story.
PHILLIPS: I'm curious, Robbie, would you want to take on this PR campaign?
VORHAUS: Well, you know, PR is story telling. If Michael Jackson wants to come out and tell the truth and wants to be in the new model of public relations in storytelling -- and that's to raise, not lower, it's to help people understand why he is this way -- I believe that he has some psychological problem. I mean, he does not demonstrate boundaries.
If he wants to say, you know what? I have been living in Never Neverland, and now it's time to grow up, sure, he could do a lot of good. He could help a lot of people.
On the other hand, if he's looking for someone to lie, if he's looking for someone to cover up, if he's looking for someone to distract the public and distract the press, he wouldn't want to hire us.
PHILLIPS: Robbie Vorhaus, one of our key PR individuals coming on and talking about the whole issue of spin and imaging as this case rolls on. Robby, thank you.
VORHAUS: Thanks, Kyra.
PHILLIPS: It's been an interesting day. Now Michael Jackson surrendering.
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