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The Amanpour Hour

Interview With Former Chief Of British Intelligence, Sir John Sawers; Interview With Czech President Petr Pavel; America's Vital Counterweight To China Charts Political Future; Ukrainian Maestro On Defiance And Unity Through Music; Interview With Ukrainian Conductor Oksana Lyniv; The Aborted Nuclear Deal That Could Have Reshaped The Middle East; Why Are MAGA Republicans Parroting Russian Propaganda. Aired 11a-12p ET

Aired April 20, 2024 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:59:33]

KARA SWISHER, PODCAST HOST, "PIVOT" and "ON": And so prices have declined 7 percent this year and that we'll see declines -- everyone in the pandemic bit up these rich houses and they were living in their beautiful estates. And now the prices are going down.

And so you could get a real bargain Chris, you know, on a multiple 10- million-dollar home.

CHRIS WALLACE, CNN HOST: Well, the question I want to ask you though is Kara, are you personally doing what you can to reverse this trend and to put spending on luxury items up. I mean you've got a very successful (INAUDIBLE) --

(CROSSTALK)

SWISHER: I get this but I'm not quite in your group but yes, I might go -- yes, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But for the rest of us, to hear you two talk, let me just put that out there.

SWISHER: Anyway, I think it's interesting to see what happens here and the prices were elevated and now they're, because of a lot of reasons, down. It'll be interesting to see where it goes.

WALLACE: But the economy kind of hangs on and spending maybe not how I'm spending, spending is pretty strong.

SWISHER: Yes. I think that just the price has got out of line with what they were actually were. And that's true. And they're going back. They're going back to -- I think it's called secular normalization.

WALLACE: I'm all for a secular.

Gang, thank you all for being here. And thank you for spending part of your day with us.

We'll see you right back here next week. CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello everyone and welcome to THE AMANPOUR HOUR.

Here's where we're headed this week.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: The clandestine conflict between Iran and Israel erupts into the open. Could it get any worse, my intel briefing from Britain's former spy chief Sir John Sawers.

SIR JOHN SAWERS, FORMER CHIEF OF BRITISH SECRET INTELLIGENCE SERVICES: We need to recognize that this shadow war between Israel, Iran has been going on for a good number of years now.

AMANPOUR: Also this hour --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This looks like something you'd see out of Hitler's Germany.

AMANPOUR: Why are MAGA Republicans parroting Putin's propaganda?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's so outlandish. And it's so wrong in many ways.

AMANPOUR: Then Czech President Petr Pavel warns the United States that a loss for Ukraine means a loss for the whole of Europe.

PETR PAVEL, CZECH PRESIDENT: U.S. assistance, U.S. help to Ukraine cannot be replaced.

AMANPOUR: Also this hour, the Ukrainian maestro at the Met on unity through music.

OKSANA LYNIV, UKRAINIAN CONDUCTOR: Fighting for the freedom makes us to feel everything deeper, everything more emotionally.

AMANPOUR: Plus why an election in India is so crucial to America's relationship with China.

And from my archive, the nuclear deal Trump and Netanyahu pulled out of that heightens the danger in the Middle East today.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.

And we begin with the wider war that nobody wants.

ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: the United States has not been involved in any offensive operations. What we're focused on, what the G7 is focused on -- and again, its reflected in our statement and in our conversation -- is our work to de-escalate tensions.

AMANPOUR: After being warned by its allies to avoid further escalation, the U.S. says Israel carried out a strike inside Iran on Friday. Iran downplayed the impact of what appears to be a fairly limited strike after its air defenses intercepted three drones with no reports of a missile attack. An Iranian official told Reuters there was no plan to respond at this point.

All this came less than a week after Iran launched an unprecedented attack on Israel in response to a strike on its embassy compound in Syria.

Former Israeli general Tamir Hyman, who once was head of intelligence for the IDF, told me Israel had miscalculated on both Hamas and Iran.

TAMIR HYMAN, FORMER IDF INTELLIGENCE CHIEF: Now, I think the intelligence -- the IDF intelligence was wrong in the 7th of October for not detecting the Hamas intention and it was wrong of assuming what will be the Iranian response.

Those are two mistakes, no doubt about it.

AMANPOUR: With Israel and Iran's decades-long shadow war now playing out in the open, the rules of the game in the Middle East are being rewritten.

I spoke with Britain's former top spy about the situation just before Fridays strike.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Sir John Sawers, welcome back to our program.

SAWERS: Thank you very much, Christiane.

AMANPOUR: So what do you think at the end of this very, very tense week, Josep Borrell, as all the leaders are meeting, you know, to try to figure out in Europe and what's happening has said that we are on the edge of a cliff.

Do you agree?

SAWERS: I think I may be slightly overstating it. It's a very tense time at the moment after the Israeli strike in Damascus and the very heavy Iranian response. We need to bear in mind that the Iranian response was a failure. They will be disappointed in Tehran that a tiny fraction only of their barrage of missiles and drones only a very few got through. It didn't really cause any damage at all to Israel.

And I think Prime Minister Netanyahu is feeling pretty comfortable at the moment. Just two or three weeks ago we were all talking about the disasters in Gaza, the failure of the -- relative failure of the Israeli offensive there and the bombing of the humanitarian convoy. It changed the subject.

[11:04:49]

AMANPOUR: So what do you think is a manageable next step, if there is such a thing. SAWERS: First of all, we need to recognize that this shadow war between Israel and Iran has been going on for a good number of years now.

The latest round of this was the Israeli strike in Damascus, which took a lot of people by surprise, including the United States administration, I think.

It shocked the Iranians as well because it was a sort of escalation to attack a designated diplomatic building, even though it was being used as a headquarters for the revolutionary guards. I think Israel made a strategic misjudgment. They thought they could live alongside a Hamas- controlled Gaza. 7 October demonstrated they could not.

Well, they're living alongside a Hezbollah-controlled Lebanon. They-re living alongside Iranian controlled Syria, but a Syria in which Iran has a substantial foothold.

Now, I don't think the Israeli security chiefs, the people I used to work with, in the Mossad and the Shin Bet and so on will be ready to tolerate this indefinitely and they'll say, if not now, then when.

But I think the politics point to a gradual step forward rather than a major escalation.

AMANPOUR: And I just wonder your security interlocutors over the years, many of them have publicly said that actually Israel's most existential threat is the continued lack of a political resolution that would bring security between Israel and the Palestinians.

Do you think now is you look at this morass that they're in in Gaza that that option is still on the table for Israel.

SAWERS: There has to be an option for a political solution. There was a common ground between Prime Minister Netanyahu and Hamas in that neither wanted a two-state solution. They both wanted a one state solution but Hamas wanted one state solution with no Israel. And Israel wanted a one-state solution with no Palestinians.

And I think either course is a recipe for really serious problems. So we've got to get back to the concept of a two-state solution. I think it is conceivable. It is possible to get there so that has to be addressed.

But Israel does have to also address its direct security, its security demands. You say this general is saying that you have to finish the job in Gaza. I'm not so sure about that, actually. I think Israel succeeded in reducing Gaza to rubble.

AMANPOUR: Is that a success?

SAWERS: Well, exactly. Thats not exactly a success. They haven't secured the release of the remaining hostages who are still live. They haven't killed the Hamas commanders. They've caused enormous amounts of humanitarian suffering. Frankly, I think from the Israeli point of view, they can change the

subject. They can switch to Iran and Hezbollah and just call it a day in Gaza --

AMANPOUR: Really?

SAWERS: -- I think that is conceivable. But the alternative Christiane, is if the Israelis do go back into, in a big way into Rafah to take on the last of the Hamas battalions.

Yes, there's a security logic to it, but will they actually achieve any more than they achieved already? I'm very skeptical.

I think Hamas will be able to reconstitute its military forces. There'll be plenty of volunteers for Hamas battalions emerging out of this conflict. And the only real answer to both Gaza and the West Bank is to have an authority of Palestinian leadership, which takes responsibility for those territories in the concept -- of a context of working towards a Palestinian state, which lives alongside a secure and peaceful Israel.

AMANPOUR: Now, onto the other major, maybe unloved war right now on Ukraine. Yes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: Our Ukrainian sky and the sky of our neighbors deserve the same security. And I thank everyone who also perceives our need for security as a need for equal security for all, because all lives are equally valuable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: and he made the obvious point that of course they're not NATO but nor is Israel NATO. So this stuff can be done.

Now, I don't know your view on that, but your view on the Americans who, as we speak are getting ready to bring this aid bill finally to the floor of Congress.

SAWERS: Ukrainian armed forces have done a remarkable job holding the Russians have baby, initially pushing them back. But the logic of a war between a major country with 140 million people and a big industrial base against a medium-sized country, that's beginning to tell.

And what has kept Ukraine going has been international support has been above all, financial support from the Europeans and even more critically, military support mainly from the United States.

[11:09:51]

SAWERS: And sadly, the delay in approving further military support, a budget for support for Ukraine has enabled Russia to get on the front foot in Ukraine. It's meant the Ukrainian forces have been much more cautious about using what limited material they have at the moment. I think the -- I hope the vote in the House will be successful. That

the money will be approved. I think it will give a very big boost to Zelenskyy and to the whole of America's allies around Europe and it will be a big setback for President Putin.

AMANPOUR: You can hear some of the MAGA Republicans literally spouting Russian propaganda. Nazis this -- I mean, it's really like word for word, Putin's playbook and his disinformation machine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Theres frequent pictures all over. Anybody can find them, of Nazis. Here they are.

AMANPOUR: I mean, these people are literally speaking from Putin's playbook. And you know, the issues around Trump and his affinity for Putin.

So I want to ask you finally, JD Vance is a senator, a very pro-Trump, you know, ally is essentially now writing it's going to have to give up its territory to Russia and we're just going to have to move forward.

That plus, Ukraine-Russia doesn't matter as much to us as Israel.

SAWERS: Well, first of all, I think it's a serious misjudgment to say that Russia doesn't matter. Russia is the biggest single threat to European security and to North Atlantic security. I know China is a big strategic threat and it is the most important competition for the next -- for the rest of the century.

But if you're looking at the next decade or two, the real security threat comes from Russia. So it's flat wrong to think in terms of Russia not being a threat.

You have to recognize that Russia is led by a very autocratic, all- powerful figure who going to his head that somehow Ukraine is -- should be part of Russia.

He's undermined all the principles of the United Nations charter and is quite clearly seemed to be doing that so we've got to defend ourselves against him and the vote in the House representatives to renew support for Ukraine is going to be really important in this.

AMANPOUR: Sir John Sawers, thank you very much indeed.

SAWERS: Thank you, Christiane.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Coming up later on the show, Trump's former defense secretary on the danger of MAGA Republicans buying into Putin's propaganda.

Then a billion people decide the future of one of America's most important allies. But first, the European president, taking matters into his own hands to restock Ukraine's critically low ammunition supplies.

[11:12:41]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

In the absence of vital U.S. aid for Ukraine, other allies are stepping in to fill the vacuum. The Czech Republic in Central Europe is leading an international effort to deliver 1.5 million artillery shells to Ukraine within a year.

Czech President Petr Pavel, who's also a former army general and senior NATO official join me from Prague, and I asked him whether he thinks Ukraine war could be lost by Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: President Pavel, welcome to the program.

PETR PAVEL, CZECH PRESIDENT: Thank you.

AMANPOUR: You probably have heard that the defense secretary in the United States, Lloyd Austin, has said that Russia is beginning to make incremental gains. It's moving on to the front foot and it's beginning to, you know, really press its advantage now that, for instance, Ukraine doesn't have the American aid.

How much of a difference will it make for you and your effort and for Ukraine if the House passes this aid bill on Saturday night?

PAVEL: Well, we all hope that this bill will be passed on Saturday because U.S. assistance, U.S. help to Ukraine cannot be replaced. Europe is doing increasingly more and more. European nations are taking responsibility.

But the United States still provide at least 50 percent of it. So, that's why we all are counting on a right American decision.

AMANPOUR: What do you make of some of the Senators even, you know, not just Congress people who are in the sort of Trump, what we call the MAGA group of Trump Republicans in Congress. Senators like J.D. Vance of Ohio, who has been, ever since the Munich Security Conference, essentially, making a case that Ukraine doesn't matter essentially that it should just surrender and give land to Russia.

PAVEL: Well, I believe that Ukraine is equally important for Europe as it is for the United States and the rest of the world. Because it's not just about the defense of sovereign country and its territory, it's about the principles. And these principles matter for the United States the same way as for us.

If Russia succeeds in Ukraine, then the whole transatlantic community will not be trusted anymore, because we are talking about protecting our values but we are not doing enough to protect them in practice.

[11:19:54]

PAVEL: If Russia prevails with its attitude to pushing its interests by force, all countries that are watching will be inspired. Starting with China, with a number of countries in Africa, Middle East, and Asia. I believe that it is crucially important that we all deliver all necessary assistance to Ukraine for it to prevail and to push Russia back.

AMANPOUR: And now you can see that there's a whole another war on our doorstep -- potentially Iran, Israel; obviously the war that's been going on in Israel and Gaza.

And so, I want to ask you to reflect on what happened when allies came to the aid of Israel, to the defense of Israel, in the face of an Iranian missile barrage. Israel is not a NATO country, and that was noticed and commented on by the Ukrainian president, who's asking, well, we've been asking you to secure our skies and to help us also defend against these Russian, and Iranian, by the way, projectiles.

Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENSKYY (through translator): Well, after yesterday's attack, I want to ask you a question. Is Israel part of NATO or not?

Here's the answer. Israel is not a NATO country. The NATO allies, including NATO countries, have been defending Israel. They showed the Iranian forces that Israel was not alone.

And this is a lesson. This is a response to anyone, on any continent, who says you need to assist Ukraine very carefully so you don't engage NATO countries in the war.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: You know, as a former, you know, chief of staff of your armed forces, a former NATO general and a senior official, what do you make of that? I mean, there is a double standard, right?

PAVEL: On one hand, I fully understand President Zelenskyy's frustration. On the other hand, if that Iranian attack was not pushed back, if there was no coronation among a number of actors to prevent serious damage in Israel, I think that was an effort to prevent another war.

Because if that attack was not announced up front, if that attack caused a lot of damage and casualties, we might have seen the outbreak of a new war. And no one wants such a new war to happen in such a difficult environment such as Middle East.

AMANPOUR: And Mr. President, finally, you know, this new war, there was already the war going on between Israel and Gaza, have these taken significant attention away from defending Ukraine, or can the alliance do both things at the same time?

PAVEL: I think we don't have a luxury to take the crisis one by one. If they happen at the same moment, we have to deal with both at the same time.

And the principles are still the same. We should condemn the aggression, but we should also do our best to avoid civilian casualties and to bring the parties to the table as soon as possible.

AMANPOUR: President Petr Pavel of the Czech Republic, thank you so much for being with us.

PAVEL: Thank you for the opportunity.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Still to come on the show. The Ukrainian conductor who swings her baton like a sword and leads her orchestra like an army of peace.

But first, as India chooses its next leader, how long can the West turn a blind eye to its religious tensions for the greater geopolitical good? That's next.

[11:23:35]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

A record number of elections are happening this year in the United States and around the world. The biggest democratic exercise starts this weekend and will take more than a month to complete as nearly a billion eligible voters in India are deciding whether Prime Minister Narendra Modi and his BJP Hindu Nationalist Party deserve a third term.

The United States and its allies are watching closely. India's roaring economy and location makes it a vital counterweight to China's influence in the region, and India knows it, which is why the West has been willing to turn an, a blind eye on human rights abuses, freedom of the press, and its treatment of religious minorities.

CNN's Will Ripley is there and explains just what's at stake.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WILL RIPLEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi seems virtually unstoppable as India heads to the polls.

Modi is widely expected to win a commanding majority of India's nearly one billion eligible voters, the biggest democratic election in the history of mankind.

Modi's own path from poverty to politics is part of his appeal for a lot of people here in India. His official biography says he's the middle son of a chaiwala, a tea seller, a humble upbringing that he says helps him understand the problems plaguing everyday people.

Modi says his programs put more food on their tables, and his economic reforms have attracted billions in foreign investment, raising India's global profile.

[11:29:50]

JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: I've been doing this a long time, but I don't ever remember anybody getting a warmer welcome than this man right here.

RIPLEY: From the White House to the Kremlin, world leaders can't seem to get enough of Modi. Back at home, he's blurring the line between religion and politics.

NARENDRA MODI, INDIAN PRIME MINISTER: Ram is India's faith. Ram is India's foundation.

RIPLEY: That's Modi presiding over the dedication of a temple dedicated to Hinduism's Lord Ram, built on the site of a demolished Muslim mosque. That demolition triggered deadly religious riots more than three decades ago. Modi projects himself as head priest, protector, and creator of a Hindu-first nation, a nation some say marginalizes Muslims.

SABA NAQVI, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: He willfully creates a cult of his own personality.

RIPLEY: Many worship Modi himself, almost like a living god. That devotion runs deep in the ancient city of Varanasi, where religion is woven into the fabric of life, like the rickshaws weaving in and out of traffic.

I met this local shopkeeper who says he loves Modi like family.

RIPLEY: What makes him different from others?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What he says, he has done.

RIPLEY: When you hear him speak, do you feel like he's speaking to you in your life?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, yes. Because he speaks with heart.

RIPLEY: The heart of a very smart politician. Modi was not born here. He chose to represent this Hindu spiritual center. But not everyone is a believer.

RIPLEY: Have you ever seen this city so divided, so polarized?

VISHWAMBHAR NATH MISHRA, HEAD PRIEST, SANKAT MOCHAN TEMPLE: This is what we call it is not the religious center. It is basically a spiritual center.

So, this unique fabric has a strained condition now. And we have a fear that this fabric may break.

RIPLEY: That's what happened back in 2002, when Modi was chief minister of the western state of Gujarat. Religious riots there killed more than 1,000 people, mostly Muslims. Modi was accused of not doing enough to stop the violence.

The U.S. effectively banned Modi from stepping foot on U.S. soil, a ban lifted when he became prime minister in 2014. India's Supreme Court also cleared Modi of responsibility. Now, many say Modi is stoking the fires of religious tensions.

SANA SABAJ, CELEBRATING END OF RAMADAN WITH FAMILY: The first term that came to my mind was scary.

RIPLEY: Scary?

SABAJ: Yes, it's scary.

RIPLEY: I sat down with Sana Sabaj. She was celebrating the end of Ramadan with her family.

SABAJ: Where is the freedom of somebody just wearing a skullcap, minding his own business, buying mutton, whatever he wants to, and then heading home, and then dying on the way.

RIPLEY: A fear shared by many Muslims in Modi's India, wondering if this is the end of a secular Indian government, and will it mean the end of their religious and civil rights?

Will Ripley, CNN -- Varanasi, India.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Still to come the nuclear deal Trump and Netanyahu dismantled making the Middle East more dangerous today. But first, the Ukrainian maestro with a message of solidarity for her country's struggle against Putin.

[11:33:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

And we turn the spotlight now onto a symbol of artistic defiance and historic achievement. The first Ukrainian maestro at New York's Metropolitan Opera, Oksana Lyniv is a classical music trailblazer with a passion for conducting that's been shaped by her life and the war in her homeland.

Since Putin's invasion, Lyniv has used her platform to criticize the Kremlin and promote Ukraine's cultural heritage. I met her last week at the New York Metropolitan Opera, where she currently leads Puccini's "Turandot".

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) AMANPOUR: Oksana Lyniv, welcome to the program.

LYNIV: Thank you very much.

AMANPOUR: What does it mean to you to be the first Ukrainian conductor to step onto the Metropolitan stage.

LYNIV: It is absolutely exciting. I feel very honored to be the first Ukrainian conduct in 141 years of Metropolitan Theater's history and to be a part of this legendary and historical (INAUDIBLE) production of "Turandot".

AMANPOUR: And what does it mean to you given the fact that there's a horrible war raging in your homeland to you to be here. And what do you hope the audience and even the choir and the performers to take from this moment in history?

LYNIV: Yes. This terrible war makes us suffer with all together people in Ukraine. Even though I am abroad but my family is Ukraine, all my friends, all my colleagues are in Ukraine.

My first "Turandot" I conducted in the National Opera Odessa. And of course on my debut night, of course, I was thinking and I was thinking about this incredible experience and about the terrified conditions which now all musicians are suffering this.

[11:39:53]

LYNIV: And I have to say that fighting for the freedom makes us to feel everything deeper, ever since (ph) more emotionally. And I would like through my music, through my art, make people also to understand because arts is about humanity. And I would like with our arts also to educate and to do some impacts for the future generations.

AMANPOUR: And you said Odessa and we all know there was a missile attack by Russia on Odessa, very close to the opera house there.

LYNIV: Yes. And it was on second of March exactly on the day when I conducted here my second night of "Turandot".

And of course, I was conducting and I had tears in my eyes. And for example, in my future concert, I already commissioned the piece, to Ukrainian composer Evgeni Orkin and I'm going to premiere this in Denmark. And its vocal five interrupted lullabies dedicated to five innocent children who died in that night.

AMANPOUR: What would you like your audiences to know about your country now?

LYNIV: I just want to say that the war, it is not about politicians, about territory, about to see the news in the tv. The war is about human, about people, about families, about lost childhood.

and it is terrible to see every day it can happen THAT more and more innocent people are dying because Russia is doing that terrified action just to bomb civilian cities. And I just would like to say, thank you especially also to all American people for your help to Ukraine, because I think that American can understand what this such important values is freedom.

And I just want to say thank you for your solidarity and want to say is please don't lose the hope also to continue to help us.

AMANPOUR: And actually this war has shown the world much more Ukrainian culture -- dance, music, art. It's an interesting by-product of this terrible war.

Oksana, thank you so much indeed.

LYNIV: Thank you so much.

AMANPOUR: And Oksana's "Turandot" runs at the Met until June 7.

When we come back with turmoil in today's Middle East, could the 2015 Iranian nuclear deal have lowered the regional temperature now?

I speak to the key players behind the historic agreement that Trump abandoned.

[11:42:46]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

Israel and Iran are in a face-off with no direct communications and no guardrails. One of the only globally-backed forums for discussion was the 2015 Iran nuclear deal or JCPOA, A classic arms control agreement reached under the Obama administration that contained Irans nuclear program under intrusive international inspections in exchange for billions in functions relief.

But since Donald Trump abandoned the deal back in 2018, at Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's urging, Iran has been enriching near weapons-grade uranium and surging ahead with its ballistic missile program.

From my archive this week, we revisit my conversations with all the key stakeholders at the center of what had been a landmark deal, a vital reminder of how negotiated agreements actually made that region more stable, even if only for a few years.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MOHAMMAD JAVA ZARIF, THEN-IRANIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: The object of this exercise is to ensure that Irans nuclear program will always remain peaceful and to remove all the restrictions that have been imposed on Iran in our view, unjustifiably.

ERNEST MONIZ, THEN-U.S. ENERGY SECRETARY: The inspectors will have access throughout the entire supply chain going all the way back to uranium production through centrifuge manufacturing to actually operating facilities. HOSSAIN MOUSAVIAN, FORMER IRANIAN NUCLEAR NEGOTIATION: It is for the

first time, the most serious interaction at the highest level between Iranians and Americans.

BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Based on what I know of the deal, if they get the deal they're trying to get I think it would be far better than not having it.

PRINCE TURKI AL-FAISAL, FORMER SAUDI INTELLIGENCE CHIEF: We have welcomed the nuclear deal.

AMANPOUR: So you're not against it?

AL-FAISAL: Of course not.

What we would like to be sure of is that when we read the fine print, once that deal is signed hopefully next month that though that's fine print will be reassuring to us.

[11:49:57]

MONIZ: Let's face it, we wouldn't be where we are today with international sanctions et cetera if there were not, you know, significant suspicions, shall we say, about earlier activities.

YUVAL STEINITZ, FORMER ISRAELI INTELLIGENCE MINISTER: Iran cannot be trusted. They have heard of those words about Iran-ophobia. This is the most justified phobia in the world.

ZARIF: Time and again, people have been predicting for the past 20 years that Iran was a year away from making a bomb and that prediction has been proven wrong time and again.

HASSAN ROUHANI, THEN-PRESIDENT OF IRAN: Supreme Leader has, I can tell you, given the permission for my government to freely negotiate on these issues.

AMANPOUR: So you do have that authorization? Yes.

SADEGH ZIBAKALAM, IRANIAN ACADEMIC: The ayatollah is behind that deal or rather he's inclined, he supports the deal.

On the other hand, you must realize that the only important group that whole heartedly do support the ayatollah are the hard liners and all of them have actually risen against the -- against the deal.

MOHAMMAD MARANDI, IRANIAN-AMERICAN ACADEMIC: If the United States doesn't solve this problem with Iran, Iran has no incentive to talk about anything else. This is the most important issue.

JOHN KERRY, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: No deal is better than a bad deal. But the world will be better off if Iran and the United States can find the agreement that satisfies everybody's tests.

CLINTON: The prevailing expert opinion is that a successful set of military strikes would only delay the onset of a weapon capability for a couple of years.

If you can put it all ten years the world could turn upside down 15 times in ten years and Iran could be a different place, the Middle East could be a different place.

ZARIF: We want to resolve this issue and we will do our best provided that our partners are prepared to walk this road with us.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And for a period of years according to the U.N. International Nuclear Agency, Iran followed the letter of that agreement and the tensions in that region were much, much less.

And a very rare thing happened. All five members of the U.N. Security Council, including China, including Russia worked with the United States, Britain, and France to manage that and support that deal. It's never happened since and as Bill Clinton told me, the Middle East could have been an entirely different place today.

When we come back, I asked President Trumps former defense secretary why MAGA Republicans are parroting Russian propaganda in Congress these days.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK ESPER, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY: It's so outlandish. And it's so wrong in many ways.

[11:52:53]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

The House Speaker is finally moving bills through congress to unlock military aid as Ukraine's air defense crisis deepens by the day and Putin presses his advantage.

Ukraine revealed this week a shortage of missiles left it powerless to stop a Russian airstrike destroying this, one of its biggest power.

A new study says lack of air defenses has left Ukraine's frontlines more exposed than ever to Russian bombers. And Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin ended the week saying that Putin's forces are gaining ground.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LLOYD AUSTIN, U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: I think we're already seeing things on the battlefield begin to shift a bit in terms of -- in Russia's favor. We're seeing them make incremental gains. We're saying Ukrainians be challenged in terms of holding all the line.

AMANPOUR: Now as Congress under Donald Trump's direction has so far tried to sink military aid for Ukraine, I asked his former defense secretary, Mark Esper, whether he believes the GOP holdouts had fallen victim to Putin propaganda.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: I wonder as a Reagan Republican, what you make of, you know, people like Marjorie Taylor Greene says it's anti-Semitic to make Israeli aid contingent on funding Ukrainian Nazis. These should be separate bills.

I'm just focusing on her language because that is literally an intravenous feed of Russian disinformation directed straight at them to stop them from sending those weapons.

Are you concerned that they're basically doing Putin's bidding?

ESPER: Look, I'm concerned about that language. It's just -- it's so outlandish and it's so wrong in many ways. Look, we the United States are the leader of the free world. If we don't lead, a vacuum will be created and either Russia or China or both, two authoritarian states will step in and over time try to break down the international rules, order and norms and install their own values. And that's not the world we want to live in.

So now, is a moment for leadership and I think we have to step up in both cases -- in all cases actually -- Ukraine, the Middle East, and then Taiwan and support our friends and allies. And do the right thing.

[11:59:52]

ESPER: And stop with this, with this type of the talk -- it's inconsistent, not just with President Reagan, but with really the history of the GOP and frankly U.S. foreign policy now going back at least since the end of World War II.

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AMANPOUR: And the House Speaker Mike Johnson has said he is now ready to do the right thing, even if it cost him his job.

And you can watch the rest of our conversation and all of my interviews at amanpour.com. Plus, you can find all our shows online as podcast at CNN.com/podcast and on all other major platforms.

I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. Thank you for watching. And I'll see you again next week.