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The Amanpour Hour

Interview With Harvard University Law Professor Randall Kennedy; Interview With "The Wall Street Journal's" Emily Glazer; Interview With "The Atlantic's" Nicholas Thompson; Interview With Afghanistan National Institute Of Music Founder/Director Dr. Ahmad Sarmast; Interview With Member Of Afghan Youth Orchestra Zohra Ahmadi and Ali Sina Hotak; Christiane Amanpour's Candid Interview With Unapologetic Maduro. Aired 11a-12p ET

Aired August 10, 2024 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:59:44]

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Hello and welcome to THE AMANPOUR HOUR. I'm Bianna Golodryga in for Christiane.

Here's where we're headed this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, CURRENT PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If he wasn't born in this country, he shouldn't be the president of the United States.

(CROSSTALKING)

TRUMP: I don't know. Is she Indian? Or is she black.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: From birtherism to questioning color, the racist attacks Donald Trump weaponizes to undermine his opponents.

Harvard law professor Randall Kennedy on how race is shaping the election.

Also this hour, Keir Starmer versus Elon Musk in a showdown over free speech as race riots roil the U.K.

Then, the Afghan Youth Orchestra that rose from the ashes after the Taliban's brutal crackdown on music.

And Venezuela in a political deadlock. Flashback to Christiane's 2014 conversation with defiant President Nicolas Maduro.

welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.

Well, Donald Trump is at it again, weaponizing racist attacks against his political opponents.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I didn't know she was black until a number of years ago when she happened to turn black and now she wants to be known as black. So I don't know. Is she Indian or is she black?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GOLODRYGA: Well, from questioning Kamala Harris' blackness to outrage over birther claims once again about President Barack Obama. It's a tactic Trump had used for years to rally his base and sow doubt, raising questions about who his opponents really are, where they were born, and what their true ethnicity is.

But at the heart of all of it is pure, unadulterated racism. And it has animated American politics dating back centuries.

With me to break down what a Kamala Harris presidency means for racism in America is Harvard law professor and racial politics experts, Randall Kennedy.

Randall Kennedy, welcome to the program.

And it's notable that in your 2021 book, "Say It Out Loud", you wrote this. "I do not expect in the remainder of my life to glimpse, much less enjoy, a progressive racial promised land.

And here we are. Now we have Kamala Harris, a biracial woman, half African-American, half-Indian, who was named the new Democratic presidential nominee to challenge Donald Trump.

I'm wondering, given this, does that progressive racial promise land that you said now looked out of reach, is it once again in reach in your view?

RANDALL KENNEDY, LAW PROFESSOR, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: I'm very hopeful at this moment. I think that this is a moment that is filled with promise. We have a sitting vice president of the United States who is a black woman. She is now the standard bearer for the presidency, for the Democratic Party. She has a very good chance of prevailing.

And of course, throughout American life there are many examples of African-American and other people of color who are in positions of influence, positions of authority, positions of respect.

And I think that that bodes well for our democracy and says a lot about the promise of American life.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. And the fact that Joe Biden is no longer on the ticket and now, we have Kamala Harris on top of the ticket, that seems to really have rattled Donald Trump.

And he has now been forced, it appears, to go back to his old tricks. Just last week at a National Association of Black Journalists Convention, he once again went there, speculating about her race, suggesting that she's not actually a black woman, that she is indeed Indian.

And we know that she is biracial. She has never hid from that fact, that her mother was Indian, her father's black Jamaican.

And yet here Donald Trump was once again doing what he's done in the past. Were you surprised to see him go there?

KENNEDY: No, I wasn't surprised. It's not that he's going back to his old tricks, this is part of his program. This is part of his ongoing rhetoric. He has never departed from his policy and his practice of racial resentment.

He's been very successful, unfortunately, in pushing racial resentment. But that's what he's doing.

You mentioned birtherism. Of course, it's untrue, his claim about, for instance former President Barack Obama being born outside of the United States. It's untrue, and people should know that.

But people should also fasten on a second point that I don't think has gotten enough attention, and that is that our constitution does say that you cannot be president of the United States if you were born abroad. If you -- you have to be a natural-born American citizen.

[11:04:48]

KENNEDY: It seems to me that that's a bad thing. And I hope that sometime in the future that part of our constitution will be changed because there are millions of people in the United States who have given their all for the United States and anybody who is a citizen of the United States, natural born or naturalized should be able to vie for the presidency.

GOLODRYGA: On that issue of birtherism, I'd like to play some sound that we've compiled of some of Donald Trump's previous statements, questioning where Barack Obama -- President Obama was born, and then we'll talk on the other side.

TRUMP: The fact is, if he wasn't born in this country, he shouldn't be the president of the United States.

There's a real question about the birth certificate.

Three weeks ago when I started, I thought he was probably born in this country. And now, I really have a much bigger doubt than I did before.

Why doesn't he show his birth certificate?

GOLODRYGA: So, we know that ultimately did lead Barack Obama to show his birth certificate. I'm wondering in terms of how you think is best for Kamala Harris and her campaign to respond to these attacks once again, these veiled swipes at her ethnicity, at her background.

How much -- how much emphasis, how much effort should she put in combating this?

KENNEDY: Well, in my view, I think that she should be straightforward in responding, but I would not allow Donald Trump's racial resentment to mire her candidacy.

You know, I don't think that she should be quiet in the face of these attacks, but they should -- she shouldn't spend all of her time responding to his baseness. I think that she should look up, go forward, be positive, appeal to the best in the American people.

GOLODRYGA: We know that prior to her nomination to the ticket there had been some, I guess, concern within the Democratic Party that still, while the majority of the black vote in the United States was Democratic, that we'd seen an increase over time, particularly with black men, to vote, or at least be curious about Donald Trump. He -- even sometimes appear to be wooing them as well.

And yet here, now that his opponent is Kamala Harris, I can't see how in any of his attacks he's doing anything to bring on more black voters. What do you make of -- and I'm raising this because there's new polling, new Reuters/Ipsos polling suggesting that since Kamala Harris has been named to the ticket that she is drawing more support among black Americans.

Do you think that any inroads that Donald Trump may have been making now have been shattered?

KENNEDY: Two things. Number one, anybody who listens to Donald Trump should be very aware of his -- of his reach, of his willingness to tap into racial bigotry. So, certainly the targets of racial bigotry in the United States ought to be turned off to him. That's number one.

Secondly, I think that there has been a tremendous amount of energy, positive energy, unleashed in favor of Kamala Harris and her ticket. And I think that that's going to continue and I think that that's going to carry her over the top. I certainly hope so.

GOLODRYGA: How do you think she can continue this momentum now that the VP pick has been named and the ticket is firm in place?

KENNEDY: I think that she simply should continue to do actually what she's been doing. And that is to set forth very straightforwardly, very clearly her vision for the future and talk to people about the things that they care about.

She should talk with people and show that her policies will be better for them than the policies of the Trump ticket. I think that if she does that, and I think that she will do that, and I think that she will prevail.

GOLODRYGA: Randall Kennedy, thank you so much for the time today. We appreciate you joining us.

KENNEDY: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE) GOLODRYGA: Coming up on the show as race riots rock the U.K., a showdown over misinformation spreading between the U.K. government and billionaire Elon Musk.

And later in the hour, the Afghan Orchestra that rose from the ashes after escaping the Taliban's brutal crackdown on freedoms most of us take for granted.

[11:09:36]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GOLODRYGA: Welcome back.

Well, what can you do if someone predicts a civil war in your country, especially when they have a social media megaphone with an audience nearly 370 million strong.

That is the problem facing Britain's freshly-minted Prime Minister Keir Starmer. The U.K. has been rocked by days of far-right race riots targeting Muslims and minority communities.

They're being fueled by misinformation and stoked by bad actors online after three little girls were stabbed to death at a Taylor Swift dance class in the northwest of England.

[11:14:50]

GOLODRYGA: The billionaire owner of X, Elon Musk pumped out a series of knee-jerk tweets. He called civil war "inevitable" and accused Starmer's government of double standard policing.

Starmer had this to say in response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEIR STARMER, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: Let me also say to large social media companies and those who run them, violent disorder clearly whipped up online, that is also a crime. The law must be upheld everywhere. We will take all necessary action to keep our streets safe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: Meanwhile, on this side of the pond, Musk has been spreading deep fakes, undermining Kamala Harris' bid for the presidency from his personal account.

And X's own AI chatbot Grok has been generating false election information, like the claim that Harris was ineligible because she'd missed the ballot deadline in nine states. She didn't and she is for the record.

What recourse do governments have when social media lies threaten to destabilize elections and entire nations? And has Elon Musk crossed the line?

Here to discuss, we have Emily Glaser from "The Wall Street Journal" and "The Atlantic's" Nicholas Thompson.

Welcome to the show, both of you.

Thank you so much for joining us.

So, this is a story that unfortunately didn't get enough attention, I think, here in the United States, these riots that unfolded in the U.K. Quite alarming and a big test for a new prime minister and his new government.

And obviously, we have the element of social media as well.

And Nicholas, let me start with you. Because here you have Elon Musk weighing in to what's unfolding on the streets in the U.K. and saying, "civil war is inevitable". That was met with a response from the U.K. prime minister's office saying there was no justification for these comments.

What do you make of it? And what does it add to the level of confusion, I would say, and at times irresponsibility at the hands of someone as powerful as Elon Musk?

NICHOLAS THOMPSON, CEO, THE ATLANTIC: Yes, Elon Musk has two roles here. He's a participant tweeting his own things, you know, adding his voice into these conversations. And then, as owner of a platform, which he is shaping to more and more align with his political views.

What's happening in social media is there's always been this really interesting tradeoff between privacy, safety, and free speech, and every platform kind of chooses a position and Musk is really tilting away from safety. Really tilting in another direction and finding a different spot.

And as a result, there are benefits that come from that, but they're also a lot of costs as we see from time to time like this past week.

EMILY GLAZER, REPORTER, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL: I was thinking back to the 2020 election when Twitter and other platforms were rolling out even more measures to curb the spread of myth and disinformation.

You know, up until right before the election, Twitter was putting labels on information that was spreading, anything that could incite violence, incite hateful speech, and they had found then, and it was, you know, a company under different ownership. I think they labeled roughly 300,000 posts and that it significantly decreased the spread of that type of information.

That's obviously changed as Elon Musk has bought this company. You know, it's private. He's running it. He's shaping the activities.

Britain does have, you know, a certain regulation that I believe is going into effect later this year that is meant to curb the spread of information that incites violence online. So, it'll be interesting to see how that could change what's happening here.

GOLODRYGA: Do you think this is something that Elon Musk takes seriously?

THOMPSON: Well, I think he will have to take it seriously. I mean, all of these platforms, ultimately, they espouse these, you know, very strong principles, and then they have to comply with the law. They have to comply with it in Europe, which obviously has extremely robust regulations.

Now, they'll have to comply with it with the new U.K. regulations. So, he will push back. He will fight. He will say this is censorship. But ultimately, there will be a balance where he has to comply.

GLAZER: And I would say from reporting on Elon Musk for many years, he'll pay the fine, it's pennies to them if they do get fined, and move on. It doesn't have, you know, the same type of impact.

GOLODRYGA: Let's shift to the U.S. election here, Nick, because Elon Musk has put his thumb on the scale for Donald Trump. That happened right after that assassination attempt a few weeks ago.

Now, we know Donald Trump said on Truth Social that he's going to be doing an interview with Elon on Monday.

And the fact that you have the owner of one of the world's most influential online sites really being quite honest in public about who he's supporting in this race? Does that matter?

THOMPSON: Yes. I think it definitely matters. I think that it will change the reputation of Twitter. If I owned a massive online platform, I would stay out of politics.

[11:19:45]

THOMPSON: If you want your platform to be a public town square, it is probably better if people feel like they can express any opinion, and the owner doesn't share one very specific view. But that is a different view from what Musk has.

The actual relationship between Musk and Trump is very confusing. They both have extremely idiosyncratic, hard-to-place politics.

You know, Musk is now viewed as this edge lord (ph) figure of the right, but this is a man who has done more to combat climate change than any other inventor in America.

He clearly, as he said, I believe it was in the Lex Fridman Podcast, he talked about Trump's masculinity, anger, standing up for America, but I wouldn't be surprised if Musk's politics flip back.

And I also think some of Musk's regard for Trump was due to his tension with Biden, over Biden's comments about electric cars and excluding Tesla.

So it's very, very complicated. But I think the bottom line is X would feel more like the thing Musk says he wants it to feel like, which is an open town square, if Musk would stay quiet on big political issues.

GOLODRYGA: Emily, Nick -- stand by. We'll continue this conversation when we come back.

Why it's not all doom and gloom -- I'd like to hear that -- for democracy.

And are shorts ever really appropriate in the office?

We'll discuss after the break.

[11:21:12]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GOLODRYGA: Ok. Welcome back to the program.

Picking up where we left off with my panel Emily Glazer from "The Wall Street Journal" and "The Atlantic's" Nicholas Thompson.

Welcome back both of you.

So as we promised it's not all doom and gloom, especially in light of concerns, Nick, that we have had for a number of years about the state of democracy around the world, in particular here in the U.S. as we approach another presidential election, very contentious one, and the role social media may or may not play. Talk about why you're not as pessimistic as others.

THOMPSON: Well, I've been terrified for democracy and the rise of autocracy for a long time. But if you look at the last nine, ten months of elections, the world has been doing pretty well.

We had good elections in South Africa, Poland, Mexico was able to elect a female Jewish leader, same party. France, Britain, contentious, complicated elections. India, an extraordinary election.

And what you're seeing is that democracy is holding. And democracy, in fact, is holding even when very powerful leaders, illiberal leaders, like Modi in India, you know, obviously massive support, but not a, you know, true democrat in the liberal sense, when they lose, or when they have to cede power, the transition has actually been working.

And that is what you want from democracy. You want incumbents that lose fair elections. They had -- obviously, there are counterexamples as we are seeing in Venezuela.

But in general, the world has been able to handle democracies during a time where social media is making everybody angry, during a time where A.I. is making it quite possible to make deep fakes, during a time where a lot of civic life and that civic ties that hold us together and make democracy work are shattering.

And I'm pretty optimistic and pleased by what we've seen so far.

Now, can this hold through the American election? We will see. But for now, I think the world's democracy have kind of done all right the last year.

GLAZER: While I really want to share Nick's optimism, I think maybe from being a reporter, you know, on the ground writing about some of this stuff day to day, I worry a little bit about what could happen in the United States.

I have talked to CEOs who said, you know, their companies are based in D.C. and they're keeping their offices closed on Election Day and on Inauguration Day.

I think there's a lot of PTSD from the Capitol riots and people are just, you know, concerned about whether, like you said, the results will actually be accepted in the U.S.

So, that's a bit more of a domestic point of view, and I apologize for being pessimistic. But you know, we'll see what happens. But it might not be pretty.

THOMPSON: I think that protecting American democracy and doing everything that everybody can do to make sure that the election results are hold (ph) is the most important challenge of right now. I'm very worried about it. My point was only that so far democracy is holding.

But yes, I completely agree with Emily. This is the very worse and absolutely crucial.

GOLODRYGA: Let's go back to another important subject and I'm talking about workplace attire. Things quickly changed during the days of COVID when we learned to work from home and Zoom into office meetings wearing perhaps work on top and play on bottom.

And some people now think that that those trends may -- may still hold into the actual office space now that we've returned, including shorts.

So I'm going to ask my panel this very important questions. Are shorts appropriate to wear in the office? Emily, you first.

GLAZER: I'm an old soul and I'm all about etiquette. And while certain jobs like a factory floor, perhaps, or delivery folks might be appropriate, I think in white-collar corporate jobs, I'm going to go with no, because you might have a meeting with a client or your boss and I think you want to be -- present yourself in the most professional way possible.

GOLODRYGA: Nick?

THOMPSON: I've run, commuted to my job for the last 20 years, so every single morning for 20 years, I show up in shorts.

[11:29:48]

THOMPSON: But I do then shower and generally try to change into a suit to compensate for it. GLAZER: Nick is also the boss, so I do think it's a little different, you know, when you're a soldier on the ground and maybe meeting with the person in the corner office versus being the person in the corner office.

THOMPSON: I don't do meetings in my running shorts, but it is true. I also -- I wore my running shorts when I worked at Conde Nast and I would ride the elevator up in my shorts with the editors of "Vogue".

In general, I agree with Emily's, you know, philosophy for, you know, during the meeting during the day when you're talking to people and you're meeting the clients and you're meeting with partners.

If you are a solo (ph) contributor and you are writing an essay, and you are going to be just in a corner typing away. I'm not going to get mad if you're wearing shorts. But, you know, I'm not going to be doing that.

GLAZER: Vogue and GQ have signed off on this in some ways, you know, they prefer dressy shorts. So I will say, like in many ways they're the arbiter of fashion, but my colleague at "The Wall Street Journal" did write a story recently.

And Tim Gunn of "Project Runway" said, absolutely not. So I'm just sticking with Tim Gunn on this one. It's a no for me.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. If Tim Gunn can't make it work, no one can except perhaps Nick, while he's running.

Emily, Nick -- great to see you. This is a fund conversation, important topics we've covered as well. Thanks so much for joining us.

Have a great weekend.

THOMPSON: It was wonderful. Great to see you, Bianna. Thank you, Emily.

GLAZER: Thank you.

GOLODRYGA: Up next on the show, escaping Afghanistan. The youth orchestra that rose from the ashes after fleeing the Taliban's brutal crackdown on music.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The only thing we have is music."

[11:31:21]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GOLODRYGA: Welcome back to the show.

Imagine facing death for simply playing a musical instrument. After the Taliban's return to power in Afghanistan in 2021, music along with many other freedoms, was banned. Those who defied the ban faced severe punishment. Hundreds of Afghan musicians who fled the Taliban's oppressive regime are now rebuilding their lives overseas.

Portugal became one such sanctuary where musicians sought refuge. And that's where the Afghan Youth Orchestra rose from the ashes.

As their U.S. tour got underway this week, I spoke to two of its members along with their director who once narrowly survived a suicide bombing.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GOLODRYGA: Let's start on a positive note, and that is that you are here in the United States, in New York, you'll be playing before Carnegie Hall and then in Washington, D.C., as well at the Kennedy Center. The last time you were there was in 2013. How does it feel to be back?

DR. AHMAD SARMAST, FOUNDER/DIRECTOR, AFGHANISTAN NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF MUSIC: It's very, very, very much exciting to be able to be back in the United States and also to play in these two prestigious venues, which is the dream of every musician to be there.

But it's also significantly important today for us, not only in terms of sharing the beauty of Afghan music in this wonderful music festival of the young musicians.

(MUSIC)

SARMAST: Being here also to play with all these orchestras and to play in Carnegie Hall is also a beautiful symbol of solidarity of the world with Afghan musicians, with Afghan people, with Afghan women. It's a tribute to show the beauty, to show the resilience, and to show the hope, and to inspire people.

GOLODRYGA: So, what is your message to girls around the world, here in the United States, who take having the opportunity to play music for granted as just a given right?

ZOHRA AHMADI, MEMBER OF AFGHAN YOUTH ORCHESTRA: For them it's really hard to live in Afghanistan in a situation that there's no working, no studying, no music, nothing.

I think I want for American women to be -- to stand with all the women in Afghanistan and be the voice of -- be the voice of women for all of them.

GOLODRYGA: I know this is very difficult for you Zohra, and I also know that because of the opportunity you have in Portugal, where you have moved and the institute has been taken into the country to allow you to continue what you're doing, you haven't been able to see your family in Afghanistan.

You have a two-year-old sister who you've never met?

AHMADI: No.

GOLODRYGA: Can you tell me a little bit about your family?

AHMADI: My family lives in Afghanistan. But I live in Portugal with my cousin and my uncle. My family is a very open family because my uncle is an artist. So, it was a great -- how do you say it -- It was like happy place for me in Afghanistan with my family before Taliban came.

After, they destroy everything.

[11:39:47]

GOLODRYGA: I just want you to know that I'm so sorry that you're going through this, but you were so brave to do what you're doing and you're sending such a powerful message. And I believe your family must be very proud of you, too.

Ali, when the Taliban came back in 2021, I would imagine that was a very dark day for you. And you probably knew that your days as a musician in Afghanistan were numbered.

SINA HOTAK, MEMBER OF AFGHAN YOUTH ORCHESTRA ALI: Yes. So, I remember those days. It was very dark days. And when Taliban took Afghanistan, we all feel so sad because the only thing we have is music. The only thing we have to play and the only hope that we have to raise our voice and play music to the world and show our music to the world. And that's -- that you want. It's not easy for us.

And those days -- I remember the day that the Taliban took over the Kabul, and I shocked. And I was like, for a week I was thinking about this. And it was a very bad situation for us.

GOLODRYGA: And Ahmad, I know you were in Australia at the time when the Taliban came back to power. You went back to Afghanistan after the fall of the Taliban. And it's not as if things weren't dangerous there at the time.

There were elements of society that still wanted to shut down music. There was a bombing at a concert. You got injured, lost part of your hearing.

I'm wondering do you think the world is doing enough now? It's been three years -- almost three years since their return. Is the world doing enough now to bring justice once again to the people of it Afghanistan.

SARMAST: Unfortunately, Afghanistan is forgotten today. It's a forgotten place especially in the last two years.

And that's why when we are playing outside, I consider each time we play out as an opportunity to raise once again (INAUDIBLE) and to put Afghanistan in the international arena once again.

We are witnessing attempts to legitimize Taliban and the Taliban rule in Afghanistan which is very dangerous and which is very unprecedented so therefore I would call on the international community and the people of goodwill to make sure that the Taliban do not get that national and international legitimacy.

It is a terror group. It was a terror group and it remains a terror group.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GOLODRYGA: And you can watch our longer conversation online at amanpour.com.

When we come back as political chaos rocks Venezuela, the time Christiane challenged President Nicolas Maduro on his legitimacy.

[11:42:53]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GOLODRYGA: Welcome back to THE AMANPOUR HOUR.

Venezuela is fighting for its future more than a week after a highly- contested election. Thousands have flooded the streets in protests tearing down statues of Hugo Chavez as his successor and the country's current president, Nicolas Maduro clings to his legacy and his attempt to claim reelection.

The U.S., E.U. and others have rejected Maduro's win while a defiant opposition led by Edmundo Gonzalez vows to fight back.

But the current chaos engulfing Venezuela isn't entirely new. Just one year after Chavez's death and Maduro assumed power, Christiane met with the new president in Caracas, Venezuela in 2014, just as he had taken control over a deeply fractured country amid claims of electoral fraud back then, too.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: In this country, polarization has been emblematic of politics for many, many years. While you have supporters, the Chavistas, the Chavismo movement, there are also a huge amount of people who oppose your policies and that was reflected in the last elections. It was quite close, the last elections.

Is there something that you can say, looking into our camera, to the opposition, something about unity, something about trying to unify the country?

NICOLAS MADURO, VENEZUELAN PRESIDENT (through translator): First of all, regarding polarization, in all democracy there are poles and there is a debate of ideas. In the U.S., you have the Democrats and the Republicans, right?

You mentioned that I won elections with just a short margin, as could happen in any country. But 1.5 percent of difference. And look what I did. Look what I did.

[11:49:44] MADURO: Immediately I called upon the mayors, governors of the opposition. We met in December twice; in January, we were drafting a plan. The plan was ready to fight crime, drug trafficking, a global plan.

And all of a sudden, there was this call to go against the rule of law, a coup d'etat, the right-wing extremists, and this postponed all the plans that we had as plans through national dialogue that I convened.

AMANPOUR: Yet again, you have mentioned the opposition. Again, you call them radicals, extremists.

Brazil, you saw how they dealt with their mass protests. They tried to fix things. They've tried to answer the demands of the protesters. And you keep calling them fascists.

So my question is A, how is this going to end? And B, do you worry that this democratic legitimacy that you claim will be forfeited because so much power has been accumulated in the presidency, in the executive?

The judiciary doesn't have much say. The legislative doesn't have much opposition representation, nothing meaningful.

The independent press is censored. All of this, people say, is actually moving towards a dictatorship, not towards a more evolved democracy. Are you concerned about forfeiting your democratic legitimacy?

MADURO: What is concern -- my concern is this present democracy. These accusations have been made for 50 (ph) years and they crashed against the reality of (INAUDIBLE). Tell me the country in the world with 19 elections in 50 (ph) years.

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: But it's not just elections, sir. You know that. You won your election. But it's not just elections.

I'm talking about what happens in governance, of the accumulation of power after election.

MADURO: Well, it is important to have elections in a democracy.

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: Of course. But it's also important what to do after your elections.

MADURO: We have a democracy strengthened at all levels.

You know why democracy is so strong in Venezuela? Because none of those -- who have been leaders of these powers, we are not -- like we don't -- we do not belong to international companies or a weapon company or an oil company. I'm not a business man who came here to enrichen a group, economic group or another economic group. I am an independent president.

You ask me how -- what will be the next situation, the victory of the constitution, of the people against those attacking us. It is not true that we consider all the oppositions fascists. That's not true.

AMANPOUR: And finally, what keeps you up at night? What worries you?

MADURO: Me?

AMANPOUR: Yes.

MADURO: I sleep very peacefully. I have no problems to get to -- I sleep like a child.

AMANPOUR: Really?

MADURO: And luckily, I'm at peace of mind, total peace of mind. And I do so, and I have it because I know I've been loyal. And I'm fulfilling the legacy of this marvelous giant figure who is President Chavez. And it give me a lot of peace of mind.

And I do things with honesty to favor our people. I do not nothing for my own profit. The only one governing me is my conscience and the Venezuelan people.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GOLODRYGA: Well, the claim that Maduro does nothing for his own profit may have worked for the new leader in 2014.

But now more than a decade later, Maduro' own profits and political survival seems to be his only priority amid widespread voter suppression in an internationally-disputed election.

When we come back a bittersweet moment for the refugee Olympic team, I speak to former Syrian swimmer now commentator Yusra Mardini.

[11:53:51]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GOLODRYGA: And finally, before we leave you today, a testament to the resilience of the human spirit.

Yusra Mardini fled Syria with her family as the civil war took hold. The boat she and other refugees were on stopped and began to sink. Yusra, her sister, and two others jumped out and swam pushing the boat to safety over several hours.

In 2016, she was part of the inaugural refugee team at Rio and competed in Tokyo 2020. An extraordinary story that reached the big screen in the film, "The Swimmers".

Well now, she's reporting on the Paris games for Eurosport. And I spoke to her about the extra pressure faced by refugee Olympians.

[11:59:46]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

YUSRA MARDINI, FORMER OLYMPIC SWIMMER: Just like me and the refugee Olympic team, there are so many of them that deal with the trauma and pain of abandoning everything, not even being able to go back home for the funerals of their loved ones.

It is a bittersweet feeling, having the refugee Olympic team but I'm really incredibly proud of what they represent, of what they are doing right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: And you can watch the rest of our conversation along with all THE AMANPOUR HOUR interviews at amanpour.com.

And that's all we have time for today. Don't forget, you can find all of our shows online as podcasts at cnn.com/podcast, and on all other major platforms.

I'm Bianna Golodryga in New York. Christiane is back next week.

Thanks so much for watching.