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The Amanpour Hour
Interview With Former U.K. Ambassador To The U.N. Sir John Sawers; Interview With Former U.S. State Department Official Josh Paul; Interview With The Head Of The Palestinian Mission To The U.K. Husam Zomlot; Interview With "Hard Truths" Director Mike Leigh; Interview With "Hard Truths" Actress Marianne Jean-Baptiste; How Rev. Jerry Falwell Targeted Abortion Rights; Dozens Of Families Still Waiting For Hostages To Return. Aired 11a-12p ET
Aired January 25, 2025 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[10:59:45]
KARA SWISHER, PODCAST HOST: And so it's going to last a little bit longer to both his tolerance (ph) of shamelessness and forgiveness for heinous behavior.
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST: And I think Trump appreciates the power of X in the media landscape.
Everyone, thank you very much. And you can catch Wendell in the hit CBS series "Elsbeth" and in Starz Network's "Raising Cain" starting March 7th.
Thank you very much for watching "TABLE FOR FIVE". You can catch me every weeknight, 10:00 p.m. Eastern with our news night roundtable.
But in the meantime, CNN's coverage continues right now.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. And welcome to THE AMANPOUR HOUR. Here's where we're headed this week.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Is there a Trump doctrine? Sir John Sawers, Britain's former spymaster and U.N. ambassador, sorts bluster from realism.
Then the Trump administration pledges to be the most pro-Israel in history.
JOSH PAUL, FORMER STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: I think the question there is, that putting America first?
AMANPOUR: I asked Josh Paul, Biden's State Department dissenter, whether there will be serious diplomacy to end the constant cycle of war.
Plus --
HUSAM ZOMLOT, HEAD OF PALESTINIAN MISSION TO THE U.K.: We need to move forward, and we need to use the momentum now and turn this tragedy into an opportunity.
AMANPOUR: The Palestinian representative in the U.K., Husam Zomlot, joins me as relief and humanitarian aid enter Gaza.
Also on the show --
MARIANNE JEAN-BAPTISTE, ACTRESS: Look at you.
You're dealing with the public. Handing people food.
Or you can plop (ph) down and all standing there like an ostrich.
AMANPOUR: "Hard Truths" an awards season favorite. My conversation with legendary director Mike Leigh and star Marianne Jean-Baptiste.
And from my archive, how America's evangelicals laid the groundwork for today's fight over reproductive rights.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
Donald Trump has been in office a week and already the strong arm of the U.S. president is making itself felt around the world.
Out of the World Health Organization, out of the Paris Climate Accords again and gone for 90 days all U.S. foreign assistance while he checks whether it meets his policy goals, aiming tariffs at China and the Americas, threatening to occupy territory and end wars at the same time.
But he's facing pushback already. Kremlin allies have already rejected Trump's attempt to tax, sanction and tariff Putin into ending the Ukraine war.
Sir John Sawers came into the studio here to help sort out where the world is headed as a new era of competition instead of cooperation seems to be taking shape.
Sawers was chief of the U.K.'s MI6 intelligence agency and also ambassador to the U.N.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: To your mind, is there a Trump doctrine? Is there a plan?
JOHN SAWERS, FORMER U.K. AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: There is no (ph) Trump doctrine yet. I think what we have is an approach to the rest of the world. Obviously, America First is the starting point of that.
I think he also has a sort of belief in spheres of influence. He likes and admires, to some extent, other powerful leaders.
And I think some of this stuff, which we were -- we've taken surprise by about perhaps on Greenland and Panama and so on, is about consolidating America's sphere of influence over the Western Hemisphere.
And we'll see what the approach is going to be on Europe, on the Ukraine, on the Middle East, and on China.
It's step by step at this stage. I don't think there's an overall global plan.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, on that issue, before we get to Greenland and some of the other -- you know, the strongest survive business. He has just tweeted a message to Russia and to Putin himself. And these are just a couple of the things we've pulled out.
"I'm not looking to hurt Russia. I love the Russian people and always had a very good relationship with President Putin.
Then, "If we don't make a deal and soon, I have no other choice but to put high levels of taxes, tariffs, and sanctions on anything being sold by Russia to the United States and various other participating countries."
So, there're already very heavy sanctions. They haven't really worked in the way that I think the West thought they would.
And according to experts, Russia doesn't sell much to the U.S.
SAWERS: That's correct.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, what about this tweet?
SAWERS: Well, I think it's a statement of intent towards President Putin to take a tougher approach than perhaps some people have expected. As you
say, taxes and tariffs aren't going to make any difference to Putin because there's no U.S.-Russian trade of any substance.
Sanctions -- well, then you'd have to interrupt Russia's oil exports to countries like India and China. Now, that would take quite a heavy lifting to do that.
The Biden administration --
AMANPOUR: That basically won't happen.
SAWERS: The Biden administration avoided doing that because they didn't want to raise the global price of oil.
He launched this war in order to destroy the independence of the Ukrainian State. The Ukrainians are resisting, fighting for their very existence.
[11:04:47]
SAWERS: I think the answer, if President Putin is not prepared to reach some form of fair deal or recognizing the -- what this -- you know, freezing the conflict on the present border, he's not prepared even to do that, then the only real answer for the United States and the U.S. president is to reinforce the level of military support for Ukraine and provide the weapons and wherewithal to enable Ukraine to defend itself against the Russian invasion.
AMANPOUR: The French foreign minister and other officials, when Trump started talking about, you know, buying Greenland and, you know, taking the Panama Canal, essentially it looks like the Americans have -- are going to go in for the survival of the strongest, you know, very Darwinian.
And I put this interaction to outgoing Secretary of State Antony Blinken two days before the end of the administration. Just take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: What do you think then would be the consequence if President Trump pulled a Putin, so to speak, and annexed Greenland or invaded Canada or Mexico or whatever?
ANTONY BLINKEN, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: You know, this is not going to happen. And so, of course, not a good idea to begin with, but not much point really spending time talking about it because it's not going to happen.
We have a very strong relationship, of course, with Denmark, which is, after all, a NATO ally. I've been to Greenland myself very early in my term. We have a military base there. That's critical. We have important economic relationships. And those can grow deeper and stronger.
That would be a good thing. But not by taking the route that you just described.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: I guess you agree, even though historically, you know, going back to Truman and before, they've talked about it. But again, it was a completely different era with different challenges.
SAWERS: I think the right way forward is for the United States and Canada, which obviously is closely involved in this, and Denmark to find some form of agreement which strengthens the -- Greenland's anchoring in the West and doesn't allow the Russians and the Chinese to manipulate the small and -- Greenland population.
AMANPOUR: So, to that -- you know, to that idea of intelligence and what it does to China and all the rest of it, are you concerned -- or to the U.S. -- are you concerned by all the facts surrounding the nominee for the Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard?
She's basically, you know, has to answer for her pro-Russia, pro- Syria, you know, conversations.
SAWERS: Well, I've never met Tulsi Gabbard. She does -- AMANPOUR: But what does it mean for the United States to have that? I
mean, in the past, that person would never have been brought before the Senate for confirmation.
SAWERS: You know, I think that's right. And I think senators have got a lot of responsibility to ensure that only people who are suited to top jobs get through to them, especially those in the most sensitive areas.
And the United States is the most powerful intelligence community in the world. And one of its biggest challenges is Russia. And another of its biggest challenges is China.
Well, to have someone who's a Director of National Intelligence, who basically takes a very pro-Russian approach, well that strikes me as very difficult.
And it makes it difficult for America's partners as well. How do you deal with an Intelligence community where the most senior figure in it, or the cabinet member in it is basically sympathetic to our biggest enemy?
AMANPOUR: We'll have to have you come back, hopefully, to talk about the relationship with the U.K., the special relationship. Because this administration, certainly Elon Musk, is already casting aspersions. But we'll have that conversation.
SAWERS: That's another day.
AMANPOUR: That's another day.
SAWERS: And I wouldn't take it too seriously if I were you.
AMANPOUR: All right. Well, from your mouth, ok. Great.
Sir John Sawers, thank you very much indeed.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Up next to the Middle East. Trump took credit for the Israel-Gaza ceasefire, but he's already casting doubt on it holding.
And later the new film telling some "Hard Truths".
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEAN-BAPTISTE: But we know we're out of a supermarket Without being harassed by those grinning, cheerful charity workers begging you for money for their stupid causes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: The star, actress Marianne Jean-Baptiste and director Mike Leigh join me.
[11:08:58] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.
The week-long Middle East ceasefire is holding with more hostage and prisoner exchanges today. Trump's Secretary of State, the former senator Marco Rubio, was sworn in this week promising, among other things, to be the most pro-Israel administration ever.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARCO RUBIO, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: I'm confident in saying that President Trump's administration will continue to be perhaps the most pro-Israel administration in American history.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: The new administration has sparked a wave of resignations and retirements from the State Department, some of it routine changeover.
But the Biden administration saw more than a dozen dissenters resign over U.S. policy to Israel since October 7th.
Josh Paul was one of the first, and he joined me to discuss whether there really is a Trumpian chance of a Middle East makeover with peace, security and sovereignty for all.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: So, I want to ask you what you think Marco Rubio will be like as secretary of state. He is effectively a mainstream traditional Republican.
[11:14:45]
AMANPOUR: Is he, you think, going to be all in on Trump foreign policy? Or is there -- are there going to be problems like with Rex Tillerson who eventually resigned?
PAUL: So I think, first, we need to clarify what Trump's foreign policy actually is. He wants to put an end to what he called the continuing catalogue of crises overseas. And his direction for that matter to Marco Rubio to put American interests first contrasted with some of the actions that he has taken on day one that you referred to, as well as some of the statements by, for example, U.S. ambassador to the U.N., incoming Elise Stefanik, or for that matter, Marco Rubio.
You know, with Stefanik saying, for example, that she believes Israel has a biblical right to all of the West Bank. And Marco Rubio talking about this unconditional support for Israel.
I think the question there is, is that putting America first and where is President Trump going to land on this and other thorny issues?
So, I don't think we can really say what role Marco Rubio will play until we know exactly what direction his boss is going in.
AMANPOUR: You were particularly, you know, central to a lot of the dissent around the previous administration's policy on the current war and the crisis there, how do you think the Trump administration is going to take forward the current U.S. policy?
PAUL: So, I think this is really one of the important questions right now, because the conflict -- the attacks by Israel on Gaza, the conflict in the Middle East was one of the defining issues of the Biden administration, one of the defining failures of the Biden administration.
I think President Trump comes to office with he and his team having played an important role in getting to the ceasefire that we are at now. I think the question needs to be asked of -- and the first test will be, does that ceasefire hold?
Do we get to phase two of the planned ceasefire or do we slip back into conflict? I think that the developments already in the West Bank, for example, with Israel's issuance of evacuation orders to Palestinians in the West Bank is very concerning.
There is also, I think, a tension within the circles around President Trump, where, on the one hand, you have a growing number of Americans including in President Trump's base, and I would argue, as well, a common sense that says, we need to re-evaluate our policy towards Israel.
This no longer makes sense, if it ever did, to provide Israel with unconditional support. We need to start thinking about conditions that align Israel's actions with American foreign policy, or is he going to listen to Elise Stefanik and Stephen Miller?
AMANPOUR: Stephen Miller clearly has, and historically has had, Trump's ears. So, that that is going to be very interesting.
But let's drill down a little bit.
How do you think and why do you think the Biden administration, for instance, allowed, from your perspective, the Leahy Act not to be fully -- you know, fully respected?
PAUL: So, first of all, it wasn't, of course, just the Biden administration. The Leahy Law has been on the books since 1997 and there have been no administration since that time that has properly applied it to Israel. Israel being the exception, and under the Biden administration, a whole process was created that was exceptional for Israel.
And so, I think what we face is actually a deep structural problem, a deep systemic problem within U.S. politics that is not going to shift, not going to change overnight with any one president, with any one change in the administration.
This is something that I think Americans are going to have to work at shifting for many election cycles and many years to come. To be a part of that, to drive that change is why I and one of the others who resigned from the Biden administration, Tariq Habash, formed A New Policy.
This is an organization that is dedicated to shifting American policies and politics so that they align with our interests and with our values when it comes to U.S. policy towards Israel and Palestine.
And that's the organization that recently put out a report, not in America's interest, outlining exactly why our current policy of unconditional support for Israel isn't in America's interest.
AMANPOUR: So, my question to you is, do you think your new initiative has any teeth or any chance at all?
PAUL: Yes, I do, because I think, first of all, the tide is turning. We have the wind at our back. We have, first of all, a significant shift in American public opinion about U.S. policy to Israel over the course, particularly over the last 15 months.
We are seeing countries and people around the world accuse us of hypocrisy and express a preference, for example, in Southeast Asia. We've seen polls in the last year, for the first time, expressing a preference for partnership with the People's Republic of China over the United States of America precisely because of our support for Israel in Gaza.
I think that those factors, combined with an organized, informed, professional effort, can shift things in America. It will take time.
AMANPOUR: You resigned, even though there is a dissent channel in the State Department, which I asked outgoing Secretary of State Blinken about when I conducted his last interview that was last week.
[11:19:52]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLINKEN: I more than respect, I deeply value the fact that we have people in this department and in our system who have different views and speak up -- speak out.
We have something called a dissent channel in the State Department where if people object to a policy we're pursuing, they can send me a note, a memo, a detailed brief.
And it, and I see it. I read it. I respond to it. I've gotten, I don't know, a couple of dozen when it comes to Gaza as well as other issues.
That is a cherished tradition in this department. And I wanted to make sure that people feel that they can do that.
And it's also affected our, our thinking in many cases, including -- including our actions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: How do you react to that, Josh Paul?
PAUL: Blinken didn't listen. Will Trump? Will Rubio? That's what we need to see.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And coming up, as people begin returning to their demolished Gaza neighborhoods, I speak with the Palestinian representative to the U.K. about the ceasefire and the future.
[11:20:52]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back.
With a fragile ceasefire still holding for now, Israeli hostages are slowly being released while Gazans are returning to what's left of their dilapidated homes.
But just a week in, from President Trump to the Israeli government, doubts already are being sown.
Here's foreign minister Gideon Sa'ar admitting that they have so far failed their stated goal of destroying Hamas.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GIDEON SA'AR, ISRAELI FOREIGN MINISTER: I disagree that it was achieved. We see the pictures from Gaza today. Hamas is still in power in Gaza.
What happened if they will stay in power? You see that Hamas here caused a regional war. It shakes the stability of all the region. If they will stay in power, there will be no peace, no security and no stability in the Middle East.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Meantime, the outgoing Biden administration admitted that with all its military might, Israel has in fact seen Hamas recruit almost as many new fighters as it has eliminated, and was surprised to see Hamas in full gear, taking charge of the hostage handover.
So what's next for Palestinians in Gaza after the first phase of the ceasefire? Will Hamas continue to rule? What, if any, is the future role of the Palestinian Authority there?
For answers, I spoke with Husam Zomlot. He's head of the Palestinian mission here in the U.K.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.
I guess a couple of things. President Trump Has claimed credit for this ceasefire and even some Hamas political officials in various forums have said that, yes, I mean, he concentrated people's minds.
Now, he's saying that he's not so sure. His envoy, Steve Witkoff, apparently plans to go to Gaza to make sure things are holding. What do you think?
ZOMLOT: I think it did show the last few days that when the U.S. has the leadership and the will to change things it happened. It's as simple as that. And therefore, we want to continue seeing that leadership and that well, because what we have stopped was carnage, catastrophic in every sense, and we shall not see that again happening.
We need to move forward and we need to use the momentum now and turn this tragedy into an opportunity.
AMANPOUR: So, let me just ask you, because, as you've heard, the Israeli officials have said they're going into -- around Jenin and other places, to do what they did in Gaza. In other words, remove terrorism and its infrastructure.
And there is a fact, and I think the P.A. has said it and, you know, has said, Hamas is sending operatives to the West Bank with weapons and where it's losing in Gaza, it's reinforcing in the West Bank.
Is that a problem for the government there that you represent, the Palestinian Authority?
ZOMLOT: Of course, it's a problem. And Israel is set on one thing, to undermine the Palestinian government and to undermine with it any possibility of a two-state solution.
You have been following that the settlement expansion is mushrooming. You are seeing the settler terrorism, only two nights ago, burning many villages around Ramallah. You are seeing the erection of new checkpoints all over the West Bank. Now, you have almost 900 checkpoints and roadblocks all over the West Bank. This is unprecedented.
AMANPOUR: Hamas put on a show of force during the exchange. It's freaked everybody out in Israel. They've said, look, our war aims were not achieved. Hamas is still in charge. We wanted to make sure they're not in charge. And there they are with their bandanas and balaclavas and, I don't know, weapons, complete show of force there.
What was the point of that do you think? And how helpful is that to you?
ZOMLOT: That's a cause of reflection in the part of Israel, exactly. Because after 15 months of genocide, of mass murder and destruction, this is what they get.
AMANPOUR: Right. And according to the U.S. they're recruiting as many new as they have lost.
But my point is, how does it help the situation going forward? How does it help you who are not a Hamas (INAUDIBLE)? ZOMLOT: Well, this isn't about Hamas. We've said it from day one. This is about the root cause, Christiane. And so long as we think Hamas or all other Palestinian political grouping are the cause of the conflict, we will never get anywhere.
[11:29:49]
ZOMLOT: They are the product of the conflict. And short of Israel realizing that, it'll keep creating and repeating the same situation as it has been doing for 76 years.
The only option Israel has right now is violence. They have no other option.
AMANPOUR: Right. But the only option you will have also, if you want to plan, as espoused by, you know, people who can support you, is to have a reformed P.A. I mean, basically, I assume you admit that they're ossified. I mean, it's just a catastrophe. It's a catastrophe, your leadership.
Where do you think the big Palestinian political program needs to start and end?
ZOMLOT: With the Palestinian people, start and end. It's the Palestinian people that have to decide and will decide on their own leaderships. The Palestinian people have their national institutions. They have a state recognized by the international community, that state is occupied. They have a government of that state, that is the PLO, the Palestine Liberation Organization.
AMANPOUR: Is it effective?
ZOMLOT: And they have -- of course it is effective because it represents -- it has the legitimacy. You have to separate between performance, effectiveness, the need for reform, all legitimate.
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: And it's too deeply unpopular.
ZOMLOT: All legitimate. And democratization among our own institutions and between legitimacy. The only legitimate umbrella of the Palestinian people representation is the PLO, and that is uncontested by any Palestinian.
AMANPOUR: Yes.
ZOMLOT: These institutions exist. We need to make sure that they are empowered and there, and we need to make sure that the process of election is convened and we need to remove Israel's veto over our democratic process.
AMANPOUR: And do you --
ZOMLOT: And there is a prerequisite for that, Christiane. We cannot convene perfect democracy under the boots of the occupation. We've tried many times.
The Israeli occupation has got to be ended. This is the time to unify the West Bank and Gaza and let the Palestinians live their own future.
AMANPOUR: Husam Zomlot, representative of the Palestinians to the mission here, thank you very much indeed.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Coming up, some "Hard Truths" with legendary filmmaker Mike Leigh and actress Marianne Jean-Baptiste.
[11:31:48]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Now we want to bring you a film that critics and audiences are raving about.
It's called "Hard Truths". It's a gritty tragi-comedy by the award- winning British director Mike Leigh. It's set in modern-day London, and actress Marianne Jean-Baptiste gives a searing performance as Pansy, a sad, angry, wounded woman who doesn't hide her raging emotions.
That dynamic is offset by her relationship with her supportive and joyful sister, Chantelle.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you want to come to the flat?
JEAN-BAPTISTE: On Sunday?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The girls would like to see you.
JEAN-BAPTISTE: You know I've got healthy shoes.
I might spend the day lying in bed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She makes everything about her. She's rude, man.
JEAN-BAPTISTE: I've been harassed by people all day. I'm sick to death of it.
I just want it to all stop.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Now, the last time Leigh teamed up with Jean-Baptiste was back in 1996. She was nominated for an Oscar for best supporting actress in his "Secrets and Lies".
And they both joined me here on set in London to talk about character- led dramas and Leigh's unique creative process.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Mike Leigh and Marianne Jean-Baptiste, welcome to the program.
JEAN-BAPTISTE: Thank you.
MIKE LEIGH, DIRECTOR, "HARD TRUTHS": Thank you. It's good to be here.
AMANPOUR: Here is another in your series of examining the human condition, for want of a better word. How do you pitch this when you want to go to wherever you go to get the financing?
There's no plot, there's no script, yet. You don't have it all done yet, and you want to just tell an ordinary story about human beings. What do they say in the studios?
LEIGH: Well, first of all, the question is, what do I say? We say there's no squat, there's no script. Can't tell you what it's about. Can't tell you about the casting. I can't tell you anything about it at all, and please don't interfere with it while we're making it.
So, it's very straightforward. Either they say, fantastic, great, here's the money, go away, make a film; or, as in the majority of cases, they tell us to get lost and they don't want to know.
Or the big boys like Netflix will say we love what you do, we respect your films but not for us.
"Not for us" is code for we can't get involved with something that we can't interfere with, we can't screw up, we can't change the script, we can't dictate the casting, et cetera.
So I don't even -- in terms of your question, I don't even get as far as saying it's about life or it's about this woman or none of that, because we do embark when we make the films and we made this film "Hard Truths", no exception, we embark on a journey of discovery as to what the film is by making it.
AMANPOUR: And I'm going to ask you about that journey because it is actually fascinating and unique in the film world.
But, Marianne -- and how did the director pitch it to you? I mean, obviously, you've worked with Mike Leigh before.
JEAN-BAPTISTE: Yes.
AMANPOUR: But -- the first time when he said this probably to you as well.
(CROSSTALK)
[11:39:45]
JEAN-BAPTISTE: Well yes. I mean he said I want to work with you. There's no script, you won't know what you're doing in it. You won't know anything that your character wouldn't know. But we'll have a great time.
AMANPOUR: So, let's play the first clip that we have.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEAN-BAPTISTE: It's a scam. They're scamming people. Can't trust them. They want your phone number, your e-mail. I asked one of them, I said, why do you want my postcode? I might as well just give you my front door key so you can break into my house, teeth (ph) out my things, and kill my only child.
And nobody calls the police on them. Police won't come anyway. They're too busy harassing black boys walking.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, she's -- you know, she's been encountered on the street and she has this reaction.
What's happening there? In terms of her, how she reacts to people, she's a bit misanthropic or panicked and troubled.
Plus, you see throughout the film that she does not have a solid relationship with her husband and son.
JEAN-BAPTISTE: Well, I just think that she's somebody who's terribly unhappy and views the world -- she's an observant person, but her observations are very subjective and judgmental. Do you know what I mean?
We've all been to the supermarket and wanted to sort of creep past people that were, you know, asking for donations or what have you, you know, because you're in a hurry or what have you. And we don't get irate about it.
Well, Pansy does because, you know, the whole world and people and things either upset her or scare her, you know?
AMANPOUR: Now, I want to know, because you are legendary, and as you say, there may be misconceptions or the mythology about the improvisational mandate that you bring to the set. So, I think some people would think, maybe even I thought that, you know, you get your cast, you bring them to a lot of unknowns as you described. Turn on the cameras and you shoot forever until you get it right. But it's not like that, right?
LEIGH: It absolutely isn't. It's the other end of the spectrum. This is absolutely not that at all.
What -- you never on the screen see actors improvising or very, very rarely in certain moments, maybe out in the street in the real world, but very, very -- it hardly, hardly happens at all.
We arrive at something very precise. I don't go away and write a script on paper or on my laptop, bring it back. We script through rehearsal. We start with improvising and we only do
that in the location, scene by scene, sequence by sequence after a long period of developing the characters and the premise of the film.
We script through rehearsal until it's very precise. We do that without the crew there, the film crew. The film crew joins us again, and we look at it and decide how to shoot it and we shoot it.
So, it is very, very distilled, very precise, and in that sense, for a bit for me to say, but it's kind of classical cinema, really. It's not ad lib found (ph) cinema. It's not handheld and all that stuff.
AMANPOUR: All right. Mike Leigh, Marianne Jean-Baptiste, thank you so much for coming in.
LEIGH: Thank you.
JEAN-BAPTISTE: Thank you.
LEIGH: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: "Hard Truths" is out now in theaters across the United States. It'll be here in the U.K. at the end of the month, and you can see my extended interview with Leigh and Jean-Baptiste online.
Still to come, he oversaw the end of Roe versus Wade in his first term. But Trump says there would be no federal ban on abortion in his second. That doesn't mean women still aren't worried.
So on Roe's 52nd anniversary, we go back to my archives with evangelical leader Jerry Falwell, who laid the groundwork for this fight decades ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JERRY FALWELL, EVANGELICAL LEADER: We cannot expect the Lord to put his shield of protection around us, as he has in the past.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[11:43:42]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back.
At his inauguration this week, President Trump said that he thinks God has delivered him for this task.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: My life was saved for a reason. I was saved by God to make America great again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Comments that thrilled his evangelical base and also concerned many who fear losing some hard-won rights, like, for instance, DEI, trans rights when Trump in his inaugural declared the U.S. government would henceforth recognize only two genders, leading one American bishop to plead for clemency.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BISHOP MARIANN EDGAR BUDDE, EPISCOPAL BISHOP OF WASHINGTON: In the name of our God, I ask you to have mercy upon the people in our country who are scared now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Now, among other scared people, are women who wonder about their reproductive rights, already in dire straits since Roe versus Wade was overturned by many Trump-installed Supreme Court justices in 2022, stripping women across the nation of the right to a safe abortion.
Roe became federal law 52 years ago this week, and ever since, abortion access has been target number one of America's evangelicals.
So from my archive, how the powerful televangelist, Reverend Jerry Falwell wrote the playbook for this fight and followed it through right up until he died, which was just one week after I interviewed him for this report.
[11:49:52]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: To the end, Reverend Jerry Falwell continued to connect liberal beliefs to Islamic terrorism, such as blaming the attacks of September 11th on the prevalence of abortion in America.
You know, you caused a huge amount of controversy after 9/11 when you basically said that the Lord was removing his protection from America.
FALWELL: I still believe that. I believe that our country --
AMANPOUR: and that America probably deserved it.
FALWELL: Here's what I said. What -- no, I said that the people who are responsible must take the blame for it.
AMANPOUR: You did.
FALWELL: We are killing --
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: But you went on to say what I just said.
FALWELL: -- we're killing a million babies a year in this country by abortion. And I was saying then, I'm saying now, that if we in fact change all the rules on which this Judeo-Christian nation was built, we cannot expect the Lord to put his shield of protection around us as he has in the past.
AMANPOUR: So you still stand by that.
FALWELL: I stand right by it.
AMANPOUR: Radical opponents had long waged their holy war against abortion clinics.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What the hell was that?
AMANPOUR: Bombings, arson, assassinations that terrified many women.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We do have one confirmed fatality.
AMANPOUR: This bombing at a Birmingham clinic killed a police guard. In the mid-90s, from Boston to Florida, angry zealots murdered seven people, three of them doctors.
The violence not only frightened a number of abortion clinics into closing, it also caused a public backlash.
FALWELL: You can't be the yelling and the screaming and the bombing of abortion clinics and the marching outside and waving. It's got to be the soft but intelligent sell of the facts.
AMANPOUR: As we talked that last week of his life, Falwell seemed to recognize that his battle to end all abortions would have to be won by the next generation of God's Warriors.
FALWELL: My children are more likely to see this -- this victory won than I am. I think we're 50 years away. Weve got to stay with it, stay with it, stay with it, and never give up.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: So in 2007, Falwell said it was 50 years away. In fact, it took only 15 years for a woman's right to choose to be struck from federal law.
And as a side note, this week, the International Criminal Court announced that it is seeking arrest warrants and indictments for the Taliban fundamentalists in Afghanistan on charges of crimes against humanity for restricting a woman's right to, well, everything.
And let us not forget that when President Trump negotiated a removal and an end to U.S. forces in Afghanistan, he ended up engineering the Taliban's return to power. The Biden administration then executed that deal in truly catastrophic form.
When we come back, hope and light in the darkness from an Israeli woman awaiting the release of her elderly father from Hamas captivity.
[11:52:57] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: And finally, as we said earlier, there are more Israeli hostage releases this weekend. Some families can begin the process of recovery and healing. But for those still waiting, the agony grows ever deeper.
Throughout the catastrophe, since October 7th, we've been speaking on this program with Sharone Lifschitz, whose mother was released very early on, but whose 84-year-old father, Oded, is one of the oldest still being held.
His name has appeared on the list of 33 hostages to be released in this deal. We spoke as the ceasefire was announced last week, and I remarked that she's become an eloquent, passionate and empathetic, if unofficial, spokesperson for the families.
And despite the excruciating 15-month wait, each time we talk, I find her strength and that of the other families to be a font of light and hope.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: What has it actually been like for you? No matter your strength inside, no matter the family who you have around you and your friends? What has it been like for these last 15 months?
SHARONE LIFSCHITZ, FATHER HELD HOSTAGE IN GAZA: Its really impossible to sum it. I think that, you know, you wake up in the morning and you think they are there.
They are on the ground in Gaza. They are alive and they are there. And, you know, nothing gets you out of bed like that, feeling that they are there. You are here. Their voice has been shut and your voice is here. And if I can speak on their behalf, if I can in any way contribute.
And you know, I haven't been alone. All the families, in their own ways have been doing so much.
You know, people -- people have risen out of the most profound atrocities to speak for their loved ones.
And it's, you know -- it's kind of you to say that I feel there's been many amazing ambassadors from the families of the hostages doing the work.
[11:59:46]
LIFSCHITZ: Doing what they can, each in their own way, to see a mother whose two sons are coming out and speaking is profound for me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And we wish her and the other families joyful reunions.
That is it from us for now. Don't forget, you can find all our shows online as podcasts at CNN.com/audio and on all other major platforms.
I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. Thank you for watching and see you again next week.
