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The Amanpour Hour
Interview With Former Director Of Public Affairs At The State Department Matthew Bartlett; Interview With The President Of The Palestinian National Initiative Party Mustafa Barghouti; Interview With President Of The U.S.-Middle East Project Daniel Levy; Origins Of Israel's Settler Movement In The West Bank; Interview With "Anora" Actress Mikey Madison. Aired 11a-12p ET
Aired February 08, 2025 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[10:59:45]
MELIK ABDUL, BLACK AMERICANS FOR TRUMP COALITION: I understand you all don't like Trump, but this Trump supporter likes Beyonce. A little box, and if she got a little ticket in there, I am pulling up. Giddy up, Giddy up.
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST: That's -- you know, I'm still (INAUDIBLE) on because I was waiting to hear the greatest entertainer of --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our lifetime.
PHILLIP: -- because some people would say, Michael --
ABDUL: That's my unpopular opinion, though.
PHILLIP: -- some people would say it's Michael. I think Beyonce might say it's Michael.
ABDUL: She would. I would not.
PHILLIP: Ok. All right. Well, there you have it.
Everyone, thank you very much. Thank you for watching "TABLE FOR FIVE".
But you can catch me every weeknight at 10:00 p.m. Eastern time at our "NEWSNIGHT" roundtable.
But in the meantime, CNN's coverage continues right now.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. And welcome to THE AMANPOUR HOUR.
Here's where we're headed this week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It would be my hope that we could do something really nice, really good, where they wouldn't want to return. Why would they want to return? AMANPOUR: It's been a week of utter confusion in Washington and abroad
as Trump vows the U.S. will have control of Gaza while also ordering a full-on purge at USAID, the arm of vital U.S. soft power.
MATTHEW BARTLETT, FORMER DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC AFFAIRS AT THE STATE DEPARTMENT: The notion of closing and extinguishing USAID is more than dangerous. It is deadly.
AMANPOUR: Trump's former State Department appointee, Matthew Bartlett, joins me.
And the Palestinians tell Trump, "no thanks".
MUSTAFA BARGHOUTI, PRESIDENT, PALESTINIAN NATIONAL INITIATIVE: President Trump thinks he can steal our land.
AMANPOUR: Politician Mustafa Barghouti says the shock (ph) plan amounts to ethnic cleansing. He joins me from the Occupied West Bank.
Then has Trump signaled the end of any two-state solution? I asked former Israeli Palestinian negotiator Daniel Levy.
And last but not least.
TRUMP: It's a -- it's a pretty small piece of land.
AMANPOUR: Trump again dangles annexing all Palestinian lands.
From my archives, the history of occupation and Israels religious extremist settler movement.
And finally, we go to the movies.
MIKEY MADISON, ACTRESS: I mean, it's kind of a dream come true for an actor to play such a complicated, interesting person.
AMANPOUR: With Mikey Madison and her career making performance --
MADISON: No. I'm eating my food.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're killing me.
AMANPOUR: "Anora".
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
"No chance in hell", says a top Egyptian official. Just statements. No plan. It'll disappear sooner rather than later, says a former Israeli prime minister. And even Israel's current U.N. ambassador tells CNN Palestinians cannot be forced off their land.
Even the White House is walking back some of President Trump's shock statement this week on taking control of Gaza and removing the entire Palestinian population in order to rebuild into a, quote, "Riviera of the Middle East".
But condemnation and confusion persist amongst all parties, even as Trump has Elon Musk all but razing the federal government to the ground.
This week, USAID, a critical arm of U.S. soft power around the world, was effectively dismantled. It's a $40 billion agency with 10,000 employees and provides critical, life-saving humanitarian aid while bringing goodwill to the United States. On top of that, a purge of the FBI and the CIA appears to be well underway.
So to break down Trump's attempt to throw the entire kitchen sink at Washington, I speak to Matthew Bartlett, Trump's former director of public affairs at the State Department.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Matthew Bartlett, welcome to the program.
BARTLETT: Christiane, honored to join you here.
AMANPOUR: Thank you.
Look, a lot of people, I guess, certainly around the world have been, you know, really made very, very uncomfortable and nervous about USAID.
America is the largest provider of humanitarian assistance, and as you know, it's always been called by the U.S. a vital, you know, tool of soft power.
How does closing it down for all intents and purposes affect the United States, first of all?
BARTLETT: I guess the short answer is, it is unclear, but we are about to find out.
Listen, I am a Republican. I am a conservative. There are arguably some questions, legitimate questions about the activity of USAID.
Over the past four years, you've seen maybe some political activism under the Biden years. You would be naive not to recognize that.
You would be equally, if not even more naive, to not recognize the everyday miracle that USAID and its staff performed around the world in terms of clean water, sanitation, and certainly one of the most central tenets of American foreign policy over the past 20 years, HIV/AIDS treatment and prevention.
So this is a very, very unsettling notion. We've seen efforts of reform.
[11:04:44]
BARTLETT: Scrutiny is welcomed, continuity is critical, but the notion of closing and extinguishing USAID is more than dangerous, it is deadly.
AMANPOUR: I want to first play this sort of mash up of soundbites about USAID and about essentially, you know, taking it to the wood chipper, as Elon Musk says.
Here's the president, here's the secretary of State, and here's Elon Musk. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: It's been run by a bunch of radical lunatics, and we're getting them out. USAID run by radical lunatics, and we're getting them out.
MARCO RUBIO, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: They just think they're a global entity and that their master is the globe and not the United States.
ELON MUSK, CO-DIRECTOR, DEPARTMENT OF GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY: As we dug into USAID, it became apparent that what we have here is not an apple with a worm in it, but we have actually just a ball of worms.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: I mean, Matthew Bartlett, from what I think you said before is, yes, there needs to be some accountability and reform, but not throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Som just describe, do you agree, A, with that characterization of run by a bunch of radical lunatics that it is, you know, an apple full of worms?
BARTLETT: I mean, let's just be clear. Again, I was a Trump appointee at the State Department at PEPFAR in the first administration. We made different choices than the Biden-Harris administration made.
This is more than reform. This is highly problematic in terms of the outcomes that are desirable for the United States of America.
If you are saying that USAID was problematic in the Biden-Harris years, it is equally, if not even more problematic to then just end it.
AMANPOUR: And I want to ask you why you think this is happening to this organization of all, with all the caveats that you've made about various ideological things as well.
But let me just read what doctor and author Atul Gawande, who served USAID under President Biden, which you say required some reforms. He said, look, we did work battling and it will stop a deadly Marburg outbreak in Tanzania, a wide outbreak of Mpox variant, killing children in West Africa. It will stop monitoring bird flu in 49 countries. It'll cut support, aiding some 90 million women and children with vaccinations, prenatal care, safe childbirth, et cetera.
So, I guess what I don't understand is why you think it's happening in this way. Why so radical? Why so absolute? BARTLETT: I mean, if you take a large atmospheric approach to this, certainly through the prism of the last election, we have seen places in America in -- with pressures domestically on the economy, on the middle class, on disaster zones, yet for the last four years, you saw billions after billions after trillions after trillions announced for the rest of the world.
This had a psychological effect. This now has a bit of a backlash.
But what I -- what we as even conservatives can affirm is the outcomes, the outcomes of what USAID can do, should do, PEPFAR is doing every single day, is undoubtedly in the spirit of our nation and it makes us a better, safer, more prosperous nation.
AMANPOUR: I want to pick up on a very important aspect of it. And you said, you know, the perception that too much money is being spent by America to serve the underprivileged abroad.
But the truth is, as you know from being in the State Department, it's essentially foreign aid. A Kaiser Foundation poll found that Americans believe about a third of government spending goes to foreign aid, where the actual number is less than 1 percent. So, misinformation is right there.
We really appreciate you coming in and explaining the best you can from -- actually, from the Trump perspective, having been in his first term. Thank you very much indeed.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And coming up later on the show, the Palestinian reaction to Trump's proposal. Mustafa Barghouti joins me from Ramallah.
Also ahead, diplomacy or displacement? I speak to former Middle East negotiator Daniel Levy.
[11:08:46]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back.
The American president said the U.S. would redevelop Gaza and its coastline into the Riviera of the Middle East and relocate Palestinians elsewhere.
The immediate answer from the region was a flat out "no thanks". And the beleaguered Palestinians themselves, still living in what Trump has called hell, say they won't be forced out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a failed Israeli plan, and it's impossible to transfer us from Gaza. We lived under bombardments for a year and a half. After all this suffering, starvation, bombardments and death, we won't easily leave Gaza. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All of our children's homes have been demolished
and our house is half destroyed. Rain comes into the house, cold is coming in and we will still stay whatever happens. Even if we stay in the tent, even if they give us castles and villas, we are not leaving our lands.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to die in my land. To stay in it. I was born in Gaza, lived in Gaza, studied in Gaza. I got married here and had my children. Whatever happens, I will never leave it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And yet they are desperate for the basic necessities of a decent life -- houses, electricity, water and much, much more.
After Trump's Gaza declaration, Mustafa Barghouti, president of the Palestinian National Initiative Party, joined me from Ramallah in the Occupied West Bank. And as you can imagine, he was duly outraged.
[11:14:53]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BARGHOUTI: What we heard was President Trump talking, but actually it was the voice of Netanyahu. I don't know if the American, the people in leadership understand exactly what he was saying. That this is a war crime, that this is a criminal act, that this is the most serious violation of international law.
And by which law President Trump thinks he can steal our land and conduct theft of Gaza Strip to use it for his, I don't know, imaginary plans of construction and so on.
By which law he wants to displace us, two million Palestinians from Gaza.
AMANPOUR: In 15 months, the Israeli military has managed to reduce much of the Gaza Strip to rubble. You know, do you think it's uninhabitable? Do you think Gazans can actually figure out how to live there?
Steve Witkoff, who visited Gaza last week, said this. "What we're trying to do is be transparent to these people. If you go to Gaza today, I was there, I witnessed it, you see people going there, picking up a tent, and literally, in some circumstances, turning right around again because there is nothing left there."
What is your answer to that?
BARGHOUTI: That's exactly the Israeli propaganda. My answer to that is that 500,000 Palestinians, half a million people, came back to the north of Gaza, although it is destroyed, of course, because they would not leave their land.
And what they are talking about is absolutely incorrect because the last thing any Palestinian wants after we've experienced ethnic cleansing in 1948, the last thing that people want is to be ethnically cleansed again.
People in Gaza are ready to survive regardless of the hard conditions. And Mr. Trump should have asked Netanyahu, how could you have caused all this damage? He should have asked himself where they did these 86,000 tons of explosives that were thrown on Gaza, where did they come from? From the United States of America.
United States has responsibility for the ethnic -- for the terrible genocide that took place that Netanyahu conducted. And for that, it should be paying compensation to Palestinians. They should force Israel to pay compensation to Palestinians, not to punish the victim by ethnically-cleansing us.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Next up, what's in it for America? I speak to Daniel Levy, president of the U.S.-Middle East project, who advised the former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DANIEL LEVY, PRESIDENT, U.S.-MIDDLE EAST PROJECT: Are we going to see American body bags? Is this the priority of a second term Trump administration? Because that's what it would mean.
[11:17:45]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.
Now, for decades, U.S. presidents have tried to play the peace broker for a two-state solution, long considered the only viable option for peace in the region.
In the wake of Donald Trump's shock proposal this week, Saudi Arabia is considered the Crown Jewel to complete national normalization ties with Israel, per Trump's 1.0 successful Abraham Accords.
But now that seems to be endangered as the kingdom's former ambassador to the United States told me.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Your king and others have said in the past that there will be no normalization without a pledge for a Palestinian state and, in fact, for Israel to get out of Gaza. Do you think that still holds? And can you see normalization happening?
PRINCE TURKI AL-FAISAL, FORMER SAUDI AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED STATES: Indeed -- not at all. This morning, our foreign ministry issued a statement rejecting what came out of Washington in the last days. And this has been the position of Saudi Arabia from the beginning and even before October 7th.
If you recall, when Prince Mohammed spoke with one of your opposition television channels in America, he made clear then that the path to a clear Palestinian state is what we want to see as a result of any talks that we have with the Americans.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So what's in it for America, and what does it mean for any hope of a two-state solution?
Daniel Levy is president of the U.S.-Middle East Project and was an advisor in the government of Prime Minister Ehud Barak, who put forward the most far-reaching Israeli proposal at the doomed Camp David summit nearly a quarter of a century ago.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Daniel Levy, welcome to the program.
From a western perspective, or a negotiator perspective, or your knowledge of America, do you have any explanation at all for what was said from the White House last night?
LEVY: We do know that the son- in-law, Jared Kushner, has talked in those Riviera terms about Gaza in the past. The Israeli press is telling us that these are ideas that Israel, Netanyahu's confidant, Minister Ron Dermer, has taken to the White House. That's been reported quite widely in the Israeli press.
We know that sometimes this president wants to say outlandish things and say, well, maybe I'll drop this plan if you give me something else. I don't think you can appease him on this.
[11:24:5]
LEVY: So, I do think we're left with scratching our heads, trying to understand how on earth, if he's serious -- and by the way, if the main question being asked after an American president makes a major statement is, is he serious, something's already gone wrong here. But if he is serious, how on earth did he think that this will be done?
The resilience of the Palestinian people, which we see, couldn't contrast more starkly with his words. The steadfastness of the resistance.
Al-Qassam Brigades from -- of Hamas have replenished their numbers, as you said. You're going to have to fight your way to achieving this.
Are we going to see American body bags? Is this the priority of a second term Trump administration? Because that's what it would mean. If you want to see this happen, you're going to absolutely have to prioritize, be on the ground.
In Israel, the messianic extremist camp are giddy with excitement today. And these are the guys -- I think you could call them the apartheid is not enough. Like keeping the Palestinians in this separate, unequal conditions isn't enough because they're still physically there. So, these Ben-Gvir, Smotrich -- they've all come out, warmly embraced it, and they are saying, yes, now we can see it through. So, if -- even if America doesn't do it, you will have a significant cohort in Israel who are saying, he has now koshered the idea that we have permanently promoted.
We must do this. But if they try, if they climb up this ladder, will America be there or will they turn around and realize that this reliance on an omnipotent U.S. is going to fall flat?
But I think many Israelis have woken up today, not out of concern for Palestinians, but out of concern that this empowers the most extreme element in their country and therefore, they are worried about it.
AMANPOUR: And Trump has said that in a month, I think he said, he will announce whether he allows Israel to annex the West Bank. I mean, does that formula even work? Can Trump, as the American president, allow a land grab? I mean, how does it work?
LEVY: Let's deconstruct that, right? So, if Israel takes over, then precisely what Mustafa Barghouti said. And this is where it's quite a clear fault (ph) line. If you take it over, two states is off the table. Israel's taking it off the table. America's taking it off the table.
AMANPOUR: Do you think it's off the table anyway?
LEVY: I think it was off the table in significant measure with the guidelines of this government and with everything that has gone on.
If that's off the table, then you either have permanent, separate and unequal apartheid, or you have the physical removal.
When we get into this kind of a zero-sum place, right, when ethnic cleansing is put on the table as legitimate, you're in really dangerous, treacherous territory. Because it may start with the idea that the Palestinians should be removed, but the Israelis are making themselves unabsorbable in this region.
AMANPOUR: Daniel Levy, thank you very much indeed.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Coming up, as Trump opens the door to annexation of the Occupied West Bank, from my archives, the roots of Israel's far right extremist settler movement there when we come back.
[11:27:56]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back.
Before laying out his plans for Gaza, Donald Trump was asked by reporters in the Oval Office whether he'd support Israels annexation of the Occupied West Bank. His reply? (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Well, I'm not going to talk about that. It certainly is a small -- it's a small country in terms of land, I take -- see this pen, this wonderful pen. My desk is the Middle East. And this pen, the top of the pen. That's Israel.
That's not good, right? You know, that's a pretty big difference. I use that as an analogy. It's pretty accurate, actually. It's a -- it's a pretty small piece of land.
And it's amazing that they've been able to do what they've been able to do when you think about it. There's a lot of good, smart brainpower. But it is a very small piece of land, no question about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: As he did in his first term, Trump broke with American policy and opened the door to Israel annexing the West Bank. And it comes as settlers and Israeli forces have ramped up their violence against Palestinians and their land there.
Back in 2007, I reported a series called "GOD'S WARRIORS" on the intersection between religion and politics. So we thought it instructive to revisit the origins of the settler movement in the West Bank.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
AMANPOUR: Six days that changed history -- the 1967 Six-Day War. It put the heartland of Biblical Judaism under Israeli control.
Hanan Porat wanted to make sure it stayed that way.
HANAN PORAT, GOD'S WARRIOR (through translator): We felt this was the time to seize the moment.
AMANPOUR: He and a small group of religious activists began planning a return to the land his parents once farmed, a community called Kfar Etzion in the now-Occupied West Bank.
PORAT: We were returning home and fulfilling the prophesy.
[11:34:44]
AMANPOUR: But the Israeli government was divided -- trade the captured land for peace or keep it and build Jewish settlements. But would settlements even be legal?
In researching his book, "The Accidental Empire," Gershom Gorenberg discovered in Israel's archives these documents, marked "Top Secret". Written in September 1967 by Foreign Ministry lawyer, Theodor Meron, the memos are a warning that "civilian settlement contravenes the explicit provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention, which protects people living under occupation". GORENBERG: It means that it violated international law.
AMANPOUR: But if Theodor Meron's legal opinion was correct, how is it that Israelis would build as many as 250 settlements and outposts in the middle of Arab land?
SHIMON PERES, FORMER ISRAELI PRESIDENT: The legal adviser of the Foreign Ministry doesn't tell us how to defend our lives.
AMANPOUR: President Shimon Peres, one of Israel's longest serving and highest-ranking politicians, initially supported settlements.
Are you saying Theodor Meron was wrong?
PERES: I don't know if he was right or wrong from a legal point of view. But he was wrong from a pragmatic point of view. Israel was under a steady attack all the time.
AMANPOUR: So just to help me understand this, for the Israeli leadership at the time, pragmatism triumphed over international law?
PERES: What you call pragmatism was, in our eyes --
AMANPOUR: You just said pragmatism.
PERES: Pragmatism in the sense of security, of defending our lives, yes.
AMANPOUR: President Peres now says getting rid of most of the settlements is key to a lasting peace.
Israel's official position is that its settlements do not violate international law. It calls the West Bank disputed territory, not occupied because it says, it was never a recognized, independent country.
PERES: The real problem is you can call it pragmatic, you can call it legal. Was the war over? It was not.
AMANPOUR: Forty years later, we spoke to Theodor Meron, a Holocaust survivor who became one of the world's most respected authorities on international law. He stands by his "Top Secret" memos to the Israeli leaders.
THEODOR MERON, FORMER JUDGE, INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL TRIBUNALS FOR YUGOSLAVIA AND RWANDA: You can justify a lot of things on grounds of security, but you cannot settle your population in occupied territories.
AMANPOUR: No doubt in your mind?
MERON: No doubt.
AMANPOUR: No wriggle room in the law?
MERON: Not really. AMANPOUR: Certainly when somebody can present you the Torah, the Bible and say, look, this is our land, then any manmade law is in confrontation with God's law.
MERON: I cannot argue with the word of God. Any lawyer can only discuss things from the secular perspective.
In other words, I do not believe that the religion can resolve legal disputes.
AMANPOUR: But to religious activists, God's law trumped all others.
Hanan Porat went ahead with his plan to resettle Kfar Etzion. Sympathetic government officials downplayed it with a cover story that it was a legally authorized military post. And that's what the sign out front said.
PORAT: Everybody knew this was no military post. It was all just a show.
So the settlers took down the sign and used it as a door mat.
PORAT: That tells you how we felt as people who were there as civilians and not as soldiers.
AMANPOUR: Another group of Jews went to Hebron and rented rooms in an Arab-owned hotel. It was just for a few days of religious study and to celebrate Passover -- or so they said.
PORAT: Are you asking me if they misled the government? There is no doubt it was a political trick.
GORENBERG: The people who led this effort made it very clear that the reason that they were doing it is that they wanted Hebron to remain under Israeli rule.
AMANPOUR: When the Jews announced they were staying, this time Israeli officials worried there would be a confrontation with Hebron's Arab residents. The settlers eventually agreed to move, just outside the city -- temporarily. But over time, that temporary compromise became a permanent settlement -- Kiryat Arba. Population today, 7,000.
GORENBERG: The decision to let them stay was essentially a victory for the settlers and a defeat for those in the government who opposed the move.
[11:39:51]
AMANPOUR: It would take another war, in 1973, to transform the small band of settlers into a religious and political mass movement that would change the face of the Holy Land.
This time, Israel fought an uphill battle after a surprise attack by Arab armies on the Jewish holy day, Yom Kippur. Even though victorious, Israelis now felt vulnerable.
KAREN ARMSTRONG, AUTHOR, "THE BATTLE FOR GOD": A certain complacency had set in after the 1967 victory in Israel.
AMANPOUR: Religious historian Karen Armstrong.
ARMSTRONG: Israelis thought they were invincible. This gave them a real shock and they felt acutely their isolation.
And among the religious, it was felt that secular Zionism had failed.
AMANPOUR: God's Jewish warriors claimed to have the solution -- an all-out campaign to settle the West Bank.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: The question is, will that settlement movement get the approval of the most important power in the world, the United States? Donald Trump said this week that they would be making an announcement on that very issue over the next four weeks.
Now, after a break, we go to the movies, Oscar-nominated ones.
"MY LETTER FROM LONDON with actor Mikey Madison on becoming "Anora", the sex worker from Brooklyn who falls for the son of a Russian oligarch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MADISON: And that's one of the things I love about this character is that she has this amazing fighting spirit.
[11:41:21]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AMANPOUR: Welcome back.
And we turn now to "Anora", the gritty, funny, heart-wrenching film that's tipped for Oscar success.
It's been dubbed by some as a dark Cinderella story. It's about a Brooklyn sex worker who falls in love with the son of a Russian oligarch. But it's certainly no fairy tale.
Here's a clip from the trailer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the beautiful Ani.
MADISON: Hi, I'm Ani.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm Ivan.
MADISON: He was really weird. And I love him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No way.
MADISON: Yes way. And I'm seeing him again tonight.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will you marry me?
MADISON: Seriously?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seriously.
MADISON: Three karats.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's a mouth for?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Mikey Madison, who plays Ani, has been nominated for best actress at every major awards ceremony. And with less than a month until the Academy Awards, she joined me here in London to discuss the film and her flourishing Hollywood career.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Mikey Madison, welcome to our program.
MADISON: Oh, thank you for having me.
AMANPOUR: So, tell me, you've just won I think the Breakthrough Performer of the Year at the Critics Circle, and of course, congrats on the Oscar nomination for Best Actress.
How was taking on this role of "Anora" and you're like, you went as Ani in the film?
MADISON: Yes. I mean it's kind of a dream come true for an actress to play such a complicated, interesting person. And also someone who is so far away from who I am in my universe. And so for me to be able to experience so many different things through but through the safety net of this character, it's like -- it's like a dream for a shy girl like me.
And so, I loved it. I loved all the research, all the physical preparation, all the -- the emotional preparation I did. Yes.
AMANPOUR: So we're going to play a clip.
MADISON: No, I know.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I got a kid who wants someone who speaks Russian.
MADISON: You know, Jimmy, the girls and I have been talking. And if your cousin doesn't start showing us some respect, we're not going to tip out anymore.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. I'll talk to him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What are you talking about? The DJ. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. Seriously.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED)
MADISON: I shared my playlist with him, and he was very rude and dismissive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're killing me. Let's go. Come on.
MADISON: No, no. I'm eating my food.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, from the get-go, you are your own person and you're very clear about your boundaries. The character speaks some Russian, certainly understands Russian. As you said, a sex worker. So, what was the prep for that?
MADISON: Well, just in terms of the language, that was not a language I spoke before filming or had ever attempted to speak.
So, I took, you know, months of Russian language sessions. I worked with an incredible dialect coach who also worked on our film.
I wanted to know the nuance of how each word sounds. How it feels to say it. What my -- what the other actors are saying to me.
AMANPOUR: So how did you prepare for the intimate scenes and the raunchy scenes?
MADISON: Well, you know, I did a lot of research into sex work because I think I went into my preparation of the film really not knowing much about that community or what that profession is like.
And it completely opened up my eyes and I was able to -- we had consultants that were brought into the film. They're consulting us on their profession, on what they've done.
And so these women who have similar lived experience to my character, I was able to just talk like woman to woman and pick their brains. And they offered so much insight and nuance into what that kind of work is like.
[11:49:47]
MADISON: And so I think that that just opened up my mind. And that's how I was able to film -- film all of those scenes.
I was very comfortable. I mean, Sean Baker is just -- he's a wonderful, lovely person. And Sammy Quan and that whole production, you know, their priority is safety, comfortability.
Like, they want everyone to have a wonderful time making their films, and that sentiment was really echoed. It was such a positive experience for me. AMANPOUR: I want to play another clip, and it's essentially fast forward from there, from the first one. And you end up marrying Vanya, Ivan.
MADISON: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And not something that his parents are thrilled about, and they try to get you to split up.
Here is a scene on the tarmac where you are in no uncertain terms, your character, Ani, is telling them where to go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You are getting on this plane, and you are getting divorced.
MADISON: Yes, we're going to get a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) divorce, but first I'm getting a lawyer, then I'm going to sue Ivan and you, and I'm going to walk away with (EXPLETIVE DELETED) half, because I didn't sign a prenup.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: I mean, you're taking control of your life right there.
MADISON: Well, you know, I've always seen Ani as someone who is very sure of herself, her place in the world. It's just other people who question it.
And she's, you know, really mistreated just because of what she does for a living. But she is a fighter. And that's one of the things I love about this character is that she has this amazing fighting spirit, and she will fight tooth and nail physically and emotionally to fight for what she believes is hers or the life that she's been welcomed into.
AMANPOUR: You know, interestingly though, you talk about -- it was hard to summon the tears that were required in that final scene, because it was emotional, it was sad. And your whole film had been projecting toughness, your whole character throughout the film.
The breakthrough came from something deeply personal. An old voicemail from your father.
MADISON: Well, it was -- you know, he sent years ago. He's my dad. My sweet dad sent me a voicemail during a time where I -- you know, I needed some hopefulness.
And I just -- he said the things that I needed to hear, you know. He just talked about seeing a lot of hope in my future. That's basically what it said.
And we played it and we all listened to it. And I think just the intimacy of listening to that voicemail really, it just grounded all of us, brought us to kind of more of like a raw, uncomfortable place. Like we were all kind of on edge.
And so, then we shot the scene, and there was just some different energy to it.
AMANPOUR: Sean Baker apparently created this around you, this character.
MADISON: Yes, yes.
AMANPOUR: I mean, it's pretty -- that's not bad for any actor, much less a young one.
MADISON: Yes, I had never had that experience before. I'd never had a director want to write something for me. And so, it was very exciting. I had to really quickly like let go of -- try as much as possible to let go of my imposter syndrome of like, why did he choose me?
I kind of feel like all my dreams are coming true a little bit which is like, I don't know, maybe there's wood somewhere and I'll knock on it.
AMANPOUR: Knock on it. But what a great place to be, thinking your dreams are coming true. It's great. Congratulations.
MADISON: Thanks.
AMANPOUR: Mikey Madison, thank you very much.
MADISON: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: She's one to watch.
Coming up, creativity and resilience at this year's Grammy Awards. Jon Batiste wins for his musical documentary "American Symphony". And I spoke to him just after the film was released.
[11:53:39]
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AMANPOUR: And finally, we were tickled to see another one of our interviewees did so well at this year's Grammys. The celebration last week showed the music industry paying tribute to the city's perseverance during the wildfires, and millions of dollars were raised. L.A. Firefighters even came on stage to present the biggest award Album of the Year to Beyonce.
It was a night to celebrate resilience and creativity, a dominant theme in another Grammy winner, "American Symphony" by Jon batiste. He picked up two gongs for this musical documentary. It's about him creating a symphony for his wife, Suleika, who was undergoing cancer treatment.
And Jon Batiste told me what music means to them both when I spoke to him shortly after the film was released.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JON BATISTE, MUSICIAN: Music is a manifestation of the ancestors, the past. It's in the present, but we're also using it to create the future.
And if you think about music as a tool and you envision the future, that the way you want it to be, you have intentions. You have ways of using art to create those intentions into reality.
They become the thing that drives the way that you frame reality, that the context of how you live and how you see the world, how you treat other people. That's a superpower.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: A message of hope in times of tragedy and hardship.
[11:59:45]
AMANPOUR: Tomorrow, Batiste will perform one of music's most visible and challenging moments in the sun. Returning to his hometown, New Orleans, to sing the National Anthem at this year's Super Bowl.
That's all we have time for, though. Don't forget, you can find all our programs online as podcasts at CNN.com/audio and on all other major platforms.
I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. Thank you for watching and see you again next week.
