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The Amanpour Hour

Interview With Former U.S. Deputy Secretary Of State Wendy Sherman; Interview With "The New York Times" Opinion Columnist Masha Gessen; Russians React To Putin-Trump Thaw; New Series Tracks The Rise Of Mussolini; Madeleine Albright On Putin's Revisionist History. Aired 11a-12p ET

Aired February 22, 2025 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:59:48]

MELIK ABDUL, MEMBER, BLACK AMERICANS FOR TRUMP: I know this is as blasphemous as saying that Tony sees and (INAUDIBLE) doesn't go on every piece of -- but I, I've walked the streets of New York City and I've yet to have a good slice of New York Pizza.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh my goodness.

(CROSSTALKING)

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST: I believe it. You know what?

ABDUL: Literally haven't.

PHILLIP: I believe it. I think you have to look for a good slice in the city. It's not just hanging around on the sidewalks.

ABDUL: Where do you live.

PHILLIP: Yes, right.

All right, everybody, thank you very much. And thank you for watching "TABLE FOR FIVE". You can catch me every weeknight, 10:00 p.m. Eastern with our "NEWSNIGHT" roundtable.

But in the meantime, CNN's coverage continues right now.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. And welcome to THE AMANPOUR HOUR.

Here's where were headed this week.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: As Trump launches a jaw-dropping 180 on Russia-Ukraine policy Biden's number two at the State Department, Wendy Sherman joins me on Putin's playbook and what Trump needs to know about dealing with him.

Then -- MASHA GESSEN, OPINION COLUMNIST, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": We're seeing

Trump destroying the American political system in a way that he didn't do during his first administration.

AMANPOUR: Democratic institutions at home under unprecedented threat. M. Gessen, who has lived through that happening in Russia, joins this program.

Plus -- Madeleine Albright's words from my archives still resonate today.

MADELEINE ALBRIGHT, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: The Ukrainians have to be at the table.

AMANPOUR: Also ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need to become a true party.

AMANPOUR: Alarm bells sounding over the threat to democracy. A new series traces Mussolini's rise to power. I speak with director, Joe Wright.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in Washington.

This must have been the best week for Russia's President Vladimir Putin in years. Not only did the U.S. negotiating team arrive for ceasefire talks in Riyadh, offering up concessions in advance. Ukraine's President Zelenskyy and European allies were left on the sidelines.

To top it off, President Trump repeated the Kremlin lines falsely blaming Zelenskyy for Russia's full-scale invasion and calling him the dictator.

The Ukrainian leader has said Mr. Trump lives in a Russian disinformation space. Meantime, Putin's fill-in president and former prime minister Dmitry Medvedev gleefully posted "If you'd told me just three months ago that these were the words of a U.S. president, I would have laughed out loud."

Now, by the end of the week, all sides tried to calm this issue. But Wendy Sherman was deputy secretary of state in the Biden administration and was among the last American diplomats to negotiate with Russian officials on the eve of their 2022 invasion of Ukraine.

She joined me to discuss the week that saw Trump throw the transatlantic alliance into a major crisis.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Wendy Sherman, welcome back to the program.

Can I start by asking you how you interpret what President Trump is now saying, and essentially lashing out verbally against President Zelenskyy, calling him a dictator, saying that his polls are below, you know, 4 percent, saying that he started the war. Why do you think he's doing that?

WENDY SHERMAN, FORMER U.S. DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE: Quite frankly, it's outrageous. One doesn't do this to allies, to Zelenskyy, to Ukraine, who has fought so valiantly over these three years, to our European allies.

The president seems to have a version of how one goes about things, and that is transactionally, not with allies and partners. And we're seeing that play out here.

So far, he's given Putin virtually everything Putin wants. He or his minions, his secretaries have given away territory to Putin. Have said NATO won't be present nor any foreign countries that are part of NATO present after a ceasefire or a peace agreement.

He has said we're going to have economic relations with Russia. We're going to re-establish all of the personnel in our agencies and our embassies with Russia.

He has flattered Putin, and he is trying to humiliate and undermine President Zelenskyy, who, as you said, has been an extraordinary leader of Ukraine in a time where Putin invaded Ukraine. That is fact.

AMANPOUR: So, what do you think Putin is thinking now?

SHERMAN: I think Putin is ecstatic. He's basically gotten everything he wants at the beginning of a negotiation, and there is, pardon me, an NBC News report that says that American intelligence shows that Putin truly doesn't want a deal. He wants all of Ukraine.

[11:04:49]

SHERMAN: And my own sense from having sat with the Russians on January 10, 2022, a little over a month before the actual invasion, February 24, 2022, is that Putin sees Ukraine as part of the Russian empire, so to speak.

He believes it ideologically. He believes it historically. And I don't think he will settle for anything other than a chance to ultimately take all of Russia.

So, President Trump giving all of these gimmes to Russia, including saying American companies will come back, our oil and gas companies. He might withdraw troops from the Baltics. All of these things are things that Putin has long wanted.

And, you know, Christiane, when I met with the Russians we discussed some of the things we could do to meet some of their concerns about how nuclear weapons were poised in Europe, where European troops were, what exercises might take place.

Even knowing that none of that would satisfy Vladimir Putin, he was intent on taking Ukraine and I believe he still is. Europeans have shouldered responsibility. They have put more economic aid into Ukraine than the United States has. We have put more weapons into Ukraine, but that is to the advantage of our military industrial complex because it's meant American jobs in the creation of those weapons.

So, Europe has come forward. We need them to continue to do so and I hope the ongoing meetings that are being held will create solidarity among the Europeans to really act as one against Putin.

AMANPOUR: Boris Johnson, former British prime minister and big, big Ukraine defender, said Europeans should stop being scandalized by what Trump said and that his comments, Trump's, are not intended to be historically accurate, but to shock Europe into action.

Is that going to work? And what action do you think Europe absolutely needs to take? You've already laid out how that they have given even more financial aid to Ukraine. What now does Europe need to do, including if there was to be a ceasefire?

SHERMAN: So, I think that we heard Prime Minister Starmer of the U.K. say that he would consider putting troops in to help keep a peace in Ukraine.

We need to know whether the rest of Europe will follow suit, even though Lavrov has said not only can't NATO have troops, but any country part of NATO cannot have troops, but one presumes that is a negotiating position.

So, I would hope that Europe would think very strongly about what it could offer.

On the reconstruction of Ukraine, Europe has really had its hands on most of the Russian assets that have been seized. There had been agreement during the Biden administration to, in fact, use the interest on those assets as part of the funds for reconstruction.

So, Europe has a lot to offer in that regard.

And I hope that Boris Johnson is right. This is a tactic. In my view, it's a horrible tactic. It's bullying. It's humiliating. It's undermining allies and partners.

But indeed, Trump has done this before. He's doing it in the Middle East with Arab partners by putting out his Gaza idea and in essence shocking them and trying to get the Arab countries to come forward with their own plan and to really back up the Palestinians.

So, it's not an unheard-of tactic by Donald Trump, but what he has done vis-a-vis Zelenskyy, Ukraine, and Europe is, in my view, outrageous, appalling, and indeed, untrue.

Ukrainians are extraordinarily resilient. Anyone who has visited there during the war, as I have, understands the extraordinary courage, resiliency, stamina, and belief in freedom that Ukrainians have. So, I'm betting on Ukraine. (END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And you watch that full conversation with Wendy Sherman online.

Up next, how autocracy rose in Russia and its warning signs here in the United States. I talked to the Russian dissident and "New York Times" journalist, Masha Gessen.

[11:09:15]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

Journalist Masha Gessen is a vocal critic of both the Kremlin and Donald Trump. Last year, Masha was convicted in absentia and sentenced by a Moscow court for reporting on the conflict in Ukraine, and their recent reporting explores how authoritarianism can take root even in a democracy. Arguing in "The New York Times" that, quote, "The barrage of Trump's ideas is doing exactly what it's supposed to do."

Masha Gessen joined me in New York to put into context this critical moment for the United States and the rest of the world, as well.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Masha Gessen, welcome back to the program.

GESSEN: It's great to be here.

AMANPOUR: I want to ask you because you have survived and lived through your own autocracy in Russia. So, talk to me about what appears to be a 180 in U.S. speak and relations with Russia over Ukraine and, of course, with Europe.

[11:14:53]

AMANPOUR: This week, President Trump called Zelenskyy the dictator amongst other kind of Putin talking points. What do you see happening?

GESSEN: I see Trump adopting Putin's language. I see Moscow reeling from, you know, their wildest dreams, coming true faster than they could ever

have imagined. And I see this country rewarding Putin's aggression and throwing Ukraine and the rest of Europe under the bus.

AMANPOUR: Putin has said that all of this reaction is, quote, "hysteria", and that why shouldn't we talk to the U.S., and of course, you know, Ukraine will be involved. Is there anything that you could say might be happening behind the scenes that wouldn't result in essentially throwing Ukraine under the bus and isolating Europe?

GESSEN: I -- you know, I really believe in looking at the thing and not looking for the thing behind the thing. I think we know what's happening. They're telling us. And Putin has

been telling us what he wants for a very long time. He wants to get back to the post-World War II status quo. When the world was divided between the United States and the Soviet Union.

He feels like he has been dealt a bad deal in the aftermath of the collapse of the Soviet Union and that Russia deserves -- he personally deserves to get back to Yalta and to divide up the world again.

That is very clearly what he has been saying, what he has been signaling and his people have been signaling in the last couple of weeks as they've actively started talking to Trump. And it doesn't look like Trump is going to stop that from happening.

AMANPOUR: So, you're talking about --

(CROSSTALK)

GESSEN: I think the idea of dividing up the world is appealing to Trump, too.

AMANPOUR: Spheres of influence?

GESSEN: Right. I think physically dividing up the world. It's not just spheres of influence. I think he imagines re-carving the map.

AMANPOUR: Can I ask you, because, again, you have lived in and, you know, thoroughly examined Putin's Russia. Is this administration a match for Putin, Lavrov, et cetera, around a negotiating table?

GESSEN: You know, I don't know -- I mean, I could probably try to answer that question, and probably the answer is no because Putin and Lavrov have thought harder about this. They're actually better at this than Trump and his people are. They're still quite inexperienced, even if they're more competent than the first administration.

But I'm not even sure it's the right question, in the sense that they don't have competing interests. They are actually on the same side of the table.

AMANPOUR: When Zelenskyy counters that Trump is in a disinformation space, I mean, he is stepping outside a lane of careful courting of his American backers over the past three years of being very, very aware that without at least their weaponry, you know, he might not be in the position that he is right now, as bad as it is. How do you read what Zelenskyy is doing?

GESSEN: I see Zelenskyy as the only politician on the world stage right now whom we're actually seeing having the courage of his convictions.

He's calling things what they are. He is speaking up for a democratic Europe. He's calling for Europe to mobilize for the interests and the values that it was founded upon. And he is the only person doing that.

AMANPOUR: You've written a book called "Surviving Autocracy". How does one survive autocracy? I mean, in your own country, Russia, which you left, and we'll get into those reasons in a second, was it possible to survive autocracy?

GESSEN: Well, I don't know if it was possible for a society to survive autocracy. It's certainly very difficult for a political system to survive autocracy, and that's what we're seeing.

We're seeing Trump destroying the American political system in a way that he didn't do during his first administration. And in a way that will make it almost impossible to reverse what he has done.

AMANPOUR: You left Russia because of its crackdown on many things, including LGBTQ rights. You came here for a safe haven. You're also transitioning. Do you feel any safer here after having fled Russia? Do you feel safer now?

GESSEN: You know, I'm in a situation of several hundred -- at least several hundred Russian dissidents who are wanted by the Putin regime. The Putin regime has sentenced me to eight years for spreading disinformation by reporting on Russian war crimes in Ukraine.

So, I'm wanted by the Russian government, as are, as I said, several hundred other Russian dissidents who have sought safe haven in the West, including in this country.

[11:19:49]

GESSEN: With this incredible burgeoning new relationship between the United States and Russia, that's terrifying, right? Putin is clearly going to ask for us at some point. That's part of what's frightening.

Another part that's frightening is, yes, I left Russia because my family was directly threatened by Putin's anti-gay laws. And I'm a trans person living in the United States now.

I don't feel personally threatened at the moment because I live in New York, because I work at "The New York Times", and because there's certainly a lot of privilege that I enjoy that protects me.

But having lived in Russia in a similar position, I know that privilege only goes so far. And of course, in this country, the attack on trans people is also specifically designed to push trans people out of public spaces.

It's the denial of documents, the denial of -- you know, the requirement that you use the bathroom of the correct gender, you know, you don't want to see what happens if I walk into a women's bathroom, but it's not pleasant for anybody involved.

All of these things are designed to push trans people out of public space. And of course, public space is where journalists work, right? So, it's also, for me, a professional risk and an attack on trans journalists, who, again as a New York Times columnist, I'm somewhat protected, but I look at my students and I realize they're at real risk. AMANPOUR: You've written a lot of really interesting and of-the-moment columns recently, and one of them is about, as you say the -- you've used the word "destruction" of democratic institutions here, federal governments and departments and the like, cultural organizations.

You wrote, and I'm paraphrasing, why even smart people "capitulate" or whatever the word is. Why? Why do you think it's been so easy? I mean, literally without a peep, almost.

GESSEN: There are a lot of good reasons to obey when a government like this comes in. So, some of the threats coming from the federal government, as weak as the federal government is compared to some other places that have gone autocratic, the threats are real. To pull federal funding, to go after other businesses that people have.

And so, if you look at people like Jeff Bezos or Mark Zuckerberg who have sort of fallen all over themselves to obey in advance. You also see some clever rationalizations and some real rationality, right? Bezos is protecting his businesses. During Trump's first term, Trump went after Amazon to punish "The Washington Post".

Zuckerberg is using what I call the zeitgeist argument. It's not even so much a direct threat as, look, we're working in a different culture now, and we have to adjust. That's good for business.

Some of these arguments are actually values-based. We have to protect our employees. We have to protect our shareholders. These are all good reasons as far as they go. They're good tactical reasons.

There's only one reason not to obey, which is that this obeyance is what builds autocracy. If people withdraw their participation, if everybody acted like the seven legal officials who resigned over the Department of Justice's order to drop charges against Mayor Eric Adams, if everybody acted like that, Trump wouldn't be able to do what he's doing. But most people are obeying.

AMANPOUR: So, how do you see that progressing? I mean, is everybody shocked now? Are they stunned into silence or inactivity, or do you foresee the world we live in, the alternative fact, you know, universes of social media, the fact that it's very difficult to find the truth? Do you think it's going to be -- it'll take time or it'll never happen, some kind of pushback against individual rights and federal rights?

GESSEN: I mean, this is not a great country to build a mass resistance movement. We're very atomized, we're very polarized, we don't have local media, we don't have local politics to speak of. So, all of these things actually mitigate against an effective resistance against Trumpism.

At the same time, we do have freedom of the press still. We do have the wealthiest civil society in the world. We do have some pretty great legal culture. So, it's not over until it's over.

[11:24:50]

AMANPOUR: Masha Gessen, thank you very much indeed.

GESSEN: Thank you for having me.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Coming up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Follow me. You'll love me too. You'll become fascists too.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: What the rise of Mussolini can teach audiences today. I talked to director Joe Wright about his new TV series following the Italian dictator's extraordinary and brutal life.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:29:54]

AMANPOUR: Welcome back. Now we heard Russia's political perspective earlier, but what about ordinary people there? How are they reacting to the new U.S. approach to their country and their president's war in Ukraine?

Correspondent Fred Pleitgen spoke to people in Moscow.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Breaking news on Kremlin-controlled TV. Even the anchor can hardly believe her eyes.

U.S. President Donald Trump calling Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, quote, "a dictator" in a social media post.

"Attention, this is incredible," the host says. Trump is obviously angry, having had modest success as a comedian, Zelenskyy, writes the U.S. President couldn't have won in the Ukraine conflict, and the U.S. was giving him money in vain. Zelenskyy is doing his job poorly. Donald Trump now calls Zelenskyy a dictator. This is what he wrote."

Many Russians now hoping that Trump-induced thaw in the U.S.-Russian relations could bring fast sanctions relief. At the Skatska (ph) souvenir shop in Moscow, boss Alexander is rearranging the matryoshka dolls, according to what many here hope could be the new world order.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our president and American president, and also we have the Mohammed Bin Salman al Saud also. So all friends of Russia.

PLEITGEN: On the street much praise for President Trump, sometimes, maybe a bit too much.

What do you think about Donald Trump? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think maybe small Stalin.

PLEITGEN: Do you think small Stalin? Why?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why? But character. Donald Trump --

PLEITGEN: "Of course I like Donald Trump," this man says. He's a positive president. He will change America and make it great again.

Moscow's leaders optimistic, saying they believe the Trump administration understands their view of the Ukraine war.

Where Russian troops continue to make modest gains, this Russian defense ministry video purporting to show drone units hitting Ukrainian positions in Russia's Kursk region.

Russian leader Vladimir Putin visiting a drone factory, also praising Trump, saying a face-to-face meeting is in the works.

"We're not in a position where it's enough to meet each other, have tea or coffee and chat about the future," he says. We need to make our teams prepare issues that are crucial for both Russia and the U.S., including the Ukraine conflict, but not only it."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Coming up next, a warning from the past, this time from Italy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An era has ended. The world as we know it is no longer working.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Why director Joe Wright, famed for his sweeping period dramas, took on Mussolini in his new series and why some U.S. streamers are afraid to touch it.

[11:32:56]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

At a moment when populist leaders are on the rise across the globe and democracy itself is on the line, we now go back in time to a portrait of the early 20th century and the warning signs of how fascism rose back then.

A new series, "Mussolini, Son of the Century", chronicles this and examines the thuggery and the manipulation that made him "Il Duce".

Here's a clip from the trailer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is Mussolini Benito Amilcare Andrea. And my time has come.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You see us as clowns, liars, fools, outrageous. Maybe so. Maybe so. Still, that's irrelevant. We are the new.

Every era has one. One who, on his own, thinks his dreams can come true.

We are making history.

For the future. The vanguard. The revolution.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: The eight-part series is directed by Joe Wright, who's best known for the acclaimed films he made like "Atonement" and the Winston Churchill "Darkest Hour." He joined me from Los Angeles to discuss why this now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Joe Wright, welcome to the program. It's an amazingly --

JOE WRIGHT, DIRECTOR, "MUSSOLINI: SON OF THE CENTURY": Thank you.

AMANPOUR: -- well, first, an amazing series, and secondly, incredibly timely.

I want to ask you just to talk to me from the beginning, because as a journalist, I was obviously, you know, taken by how you open it with the young, well, 35-year-old Mussolini, who's now starting his own paper and, you know, he used to be a socialist.

Tell me why you started with that and what was the significance of that move?

WRIGHT: The show goes from 1919 to 1925. So, it's about the birth of fascism. And for me, personally hearing the word "fascism" bandied about over the past eight years, I wanted to understand its etymology and really get to grips with what the word meant.

[11:39:48]

AMANPOUR: And we're going to play one of the clips that we have. You have him -- the style of the filming is very much Mussolini talks directly to the camera a lot, and we're going to play this clip and talk about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For the future, the vanguard, the revolution. Today, fascism is born. Fascism, a beautiful creature, made up of passion, ideals, courage and

change that will conquer millions and millions of hearts. Yours too, I'm certain. Follow me, you'll love me too. You'll become fascists too.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: So, Joe, who is he talking to when he turns to the camera? What was that device about?

WRIGHT: He's talking to us and he's talking to the viewers at home directly. The idea was to try and get as close to him as possible, to try and understand him as a human being.

And at the beginning of the show, he has control of the narrative, which I think is something very important to this kind of leader, and all leaders maybe. And then as the show progresses, he loses control of that narrative.

AMANPOUR: And do you feel that the fact that it's coming out now and, you know, there's such a huge political upheaval going on around the world, that it has relevance today?

WRIGHT: I personally do very much so. But my job was to try and understand fascism and its roots and causes and to understand Mussolini and then allow the audience to discover those parallels for themselves.

AMANPOUR: There's almost no English in there. It's -- I mean, I don't know -- did you start by deciding to do it in all Italian? Was it something you decided to do? How did that happen?

WRIGHT: No. Originally, we had the dialogue in Italian and then the direct address to camera in English. But as we were in rehearsals and pre-production, Giorgia Meloni came to power. And the next day, I went in and said I felt that I wanted every single Italian to be able to understand every single word of what he was saying.

AMANPOUR: And what reaction has this had in Italy? I know it -- I think it was premiered at the Italian or the Venice Film Festival. What reaction has it had there?

WRIGHT: It's had an extraordinary action, and I feel like Italy has never really come to terms with its fascist past and perhaps present. So, it's really been quite a shock to the Italian people and establishment, and there's been a lot of conversation. It's been on the front page of every newspaper for some time now.

AMANPOUR: So, Giorgia Meloni and her Brothers of Italy Party were elected in 2022. I mean, she's become pretty much a very successful prime minister at home. She works nicely with her, you know, international partners, but also, she has had a very distinct effect, according to Italian journalists, on the freedom of the free press there -- the free and independent press there.

And as you know, there's going to be very important elections in Germany and the AfD, which is the very far-right party there, is making very strong gains.

What -- I mean, does it surprise you that this is happening now?

WRIGHT: It shocks me that it's happening now, but perhaps doesn't surprise me. I mean, I remember when I was scouting locations in 2016 for "Darkest Hour", just prior to the Brexit vote and looking around at the state of the north of England and the state that people are in and the expression of austerity that was happening there, and I felt that we were headed into some very difficult times.

AMANPOUR: Why do you think that it's had so much trouble getting a distributor in the United States? I mean, you wrote one streamer told you the project was too controversial for them to pick up. What does that mean?

WRIGHT: It means that fascism or anti-fascism is now a controversial topic and that the entertainment industry is becoming more and more apolitical, more and more centrist, and that is of great concern to me and many others.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And the new series is available to watch on Sky now.

Coming up, the late secretary of State Madeleine Albright on Putin's playbook and why her words and warnings resonate to this day. That's after a break.

[11:44:53]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALBRIGHT: They are using this "woe is me" in order to garner sympathy and have some kind of a way of recreating something that they destroyed themselves.

evc

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:49:45]

AMANPOUR: Welcome back.

Donald Trump is throwing out the rules and rewriting Washingtons script when it comes to America's global leadership and alliances. Like so far sidelining Ukraine from peace talks and leaving Europe scrambling. And NATO's unity is being put to the test as well. All of this is right out of President Putin's playbook.

This rewrite is a moment the late secretary of State, Madeleine Albright feared, from the archives, just as Russia was illegally annexing Crimea. Our conversation more than a decade ago.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALBRIGHT: The Russians are really good at revisionist history. And so, having been there, let me tell you what this is all about.

The Cold War ends. We didn't win the Cold War. They lost the Cold War. The Soviet Union disintegrated from inside. This was not something that the West did. The communist system simply does not work. And so that is the genesis of the problem.

So one of the things that happened, and this was deliberate, Christiane. We were asked to do something that has never been done before, which is how to devolve the power of your major adversary in a respectful way.

So this was part of what we were trying to do. And we brought them into the G-8. We made a point of welcoming them into a variety of international fora to be a part of that. We also helped them during a financial crisis.

The question was NATO. I know there are those who think that that was a mistake. I think it was absolutely the right thing to do. There was nothing --

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: Moving NATO towards Russia.

ALBRIGHT: -- what -- and in fact --

AMANPOUR: They hate that.

ALBRIGHT: Well, they just misunderstood from the very beginning. I went to talk to Yeltsin about this, and I said, this is what we're doing. And he said, we're a new Russia. And I said, this is a new NATO. It is not against you, and you can ultimately be a member of NATO. So it is not something that is against them.

So they have been bound and determined to be opposed to it. So there was that.

And then generally, kind of a way to bring them in and respect them. They are using this, "oh, woe is me" in order to garner sympathy and have some kind of a way of recreating something that they destroyed themselves.

AMANPOUR: You've dealt with Sergei Lavrov. He was the U.N. ambassador when you were U.N. ambassador. What kind of a guy is he? What was he like the last time you met him?

ALBRIGHT: Well, I dealt with him a lot at the U.N., and he can be hot and cold. I mean, he's very, very smart. He argues very well. But the last meeting we had was really peculiar.

What happened was that I had been asked to chair this group of experts that were looking at a new strategic concept for NATO. And so we had decided that we would have a dialog with the Russians about that. So I arrived at the foreign ministry, and I am known for my pins.

So I had on this pin that is a knot. And he looked at the pin and he said, so what is that? And I said, it's our bond. So then we left the hall. We went to sit down at the shiny table, and he looks across the table and he says, I know what it is. It's James Bond. And I said, no, Sergei, it's our friendship. And he said, no, it's what you think of our pipelines. And I said, no, Sergei. It is a sign of our relationship given to me by your predecessor, Igor Ivanov.

And so he has this capability of seeing what he wants to see. And he does like to score points.

AMANPOUR: And obviously, that speaks volumes as to what's going on in their mindset right now.

I might just close by saying you have a very optimistic looking sunflower on your chest right now on your brooch area. Are you optimistic?

ALBRIGHT: I am, I really am.

AMANPOUR: Can this be solved?

ALBRIGHT: I wore it on purpose because I do think that this can be solved. And there's a combination of tools here. And the tools are diplomatic, which are absolutely essential and not just the United States. I mean, it has to be done with our European allies. And Christiane, the Ukrainians have to be at the table.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Those same words ring true all these years later.

And when we come back, beauty and innovation as Fashion Week hits London. What inspires the former British "Vogue" editor Edward Enninful?

[11:53:59]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: And finally, London Fashion Week is in full swing, celebrating fresh talent and bold new ideas this week as the U.S. celebrates Black History Month. The MET Gala unveiled its 2025 theme, "Super Fine" tailoring black style, spotlighting the artistry of black menswear designers.

Few have shaped that conversation more than Edward Enninful, who was just announced as part of this year's gala committee. The former British "Vogue" editor also just launched his own global media brand, cementing his status as a powerhouse in the fashion world.

I sat down with him shortly before he left "Vogue" to ask what inspired his rise to the top of the fashion world. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EDWARD ENNINFUL, FORMER EDITOR, BRITISH VOGUE: Well, what my mother gave me was a world of beauty, a world of women. I would see women of all shapes and sizes coming to my mother's studio, and she would -- they would leave feeling so incredible.

I learned the power of clothes, the power of making a woman feel great. So when I talk about my work being dedicated to people of all races, ages, sizes, religion, sexuality it really comes from my mother.

[11:59:50]

AMANPOUR: Because she was a seamstress.

ENNINFUL: She was a seamstress --

(CROSSTALK)

ENNINFUL: -- with sporty (ph) women. So I grew up thinking anything was possible and that women were the most incredible human beings on the planet.

AMANPOUR: I mean, I would not argue that, of course.

ENNINFUL: You agree.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Such a great shout out.

That's all we have time for. Don't forget, you can find all of our shows online as podcasts at CNN.com/audio and on all other major platforms.

I'm Christiane Amanpour in Washington. Thank you for watching and I'll see you again next week back in London.