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The Amanpour Hour

Interview With Former Ukrainian Defense Minister Andriy Zagorodnyuk; Interview With Rep. Seth Moulton (D-MA); What Cutting U.S. Aid Means To The World; Interview With "A Land For All" Co- Director May Pundak; Interview With "A Land For All" Co-Director Rula Hardal; Taliban Trying To Erase Women From Public Life; 60 Years Since Selma Marches. Aired 11a-12p ET

Aired March 08, 2025 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:00:36]

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello everyone and welcome to THE AMANPOUR HOUR.

Here's where we're headed this week.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Thank you again. Thank you.

AMANPOUR: As Trump turns the world order on its head, cutting off Ukraine and cozying up to Russia, we get the view from Kyiv with former defense minister Andriy Zagorodnyuk.

ANDRIY ZAGORODNYUK, FORMER UKRAINIAN DEFENSE MINISTER: We clearly are in a very strange situation.

AMANPOUR: Then Trump's opposition weighs in.

REP. SETH MOULTON (D-MA): I don't know what to say when you have a commander-in-chief who trusts Putin more than the CIA.

AMANPOUR: Democratic Congressman Seth Moulton.

And as the Supreme Court rules Trump must unfreeze foreign aid, A reality check on the most desperate. The women and children of Afghanistan.

Plus two states, one homeland. A path forward in the Middle East with Palestinian and Israeli peace activists.

Also, it's International Women's Day from the archives. The view from Afghanistan under the Taliban.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.

And a new world order continues to take shape and it's raising the alarm all over as President Trump attacks everything, everywhere, all at once, leaving Europe to fend for itself, digging deep for defense spending.

In a dramatic address to the nation, French President Macron said Europe's fate cannot be decided in Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EMMANUEL MACRON, FRENCH PRESIDENT (through translator): I would like to believe that the United States will stay by our side. But we have to be ready if this isn't the case. Whether peace for Ukraine is acquired rapidly or not, European countries need to take into account the Russian threat I have described and have to get better at defending themselves and dissuading all new aggressions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Meantime, the Trump administration seems to gaslight Ukraine, saying that it doesn't want peace as it consistently moves closer to Russia.

After that catastrophic Oval Office meeting with Ukraine last week, Trump has made another nod to Putin, doubling down and pausing critical military aid and intelligence-sharing with Ukraine.

I spoke to Ukraine's former defense minister and current government adviser Andriy Zagorodnyuk to understand the thinking now in Kyiv.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

You obviously heard what the special envoy, Steve Witkoff said --

ANDRIY ZAGORODNYUK, FORMER UKRAINIAN DEFENSE MINISTER: Thank you, Christiane.

AMANPOUR: -- talking about a -- I think he said, a temporary ceasefire ahead of trying to get a proper peace deal. First of all, how do you react to that from the United States?

ZAGORODNYUK: Well, our government suggested that we set up a stage approach to the ceasefire so that we can do some demonstration of readiness for that. And they suggested the aerial domain and the maritime domain would be closed to the hostilities.

So, that would give the indication of the will of both sides. And then we can work out the details later.

If that is accepted, that could be actually a good idea because we still have a chance to talk about the details, and we still have a chance to talk about the security guarantees. But at the same time, there is something already happening to stop that. AMANPOUR: So, your president also had said that, and he said, if Russia agrees as well. We have heard from the Kremlin and their foreign ministry that, "a temporary ceasefire is unacceptable," says the Russian foreign ministry, "and there will be no acceptance," according to the Russians, "of any kind of security guarantees like European troops on Ukrainian soil".

So, where do you -- is -- where do you think this is going to lead to?

ZAGORODNYUK: It's unclear until it's over. So, it can lead to literally anything. But the thing is that, that's what we've been telling all the way through, that Russians don't want peace at the moment, at least, and in the current reality.

And what we're saying is that, clearly, they don't want to be deterred from the future recurrences of the -- of this war. And basically, of course, we're talking about security guarantees, which would disable Russia from starting this again, or breaching ceasefire, or actually starting a new campaign altogether.

[11:04:49]

ZAGORODNYUK: The risk for that is extremely high.

So, they can return and they can start again, and clearly, their strategic goals remain intact. They still don't like Ukraine. They still don't want us to exist, and so on and so on.

So, what we said is that, look the ceasefire is as good as it can be protected. And if it cannot be protected, then Russia can just treat it as an operational pause, collect their troops and then start again.

And we definitely want peace, but we definitely don't want to expose ourselves to that risk, because that risk will be enormous, and it can destroy the country, because that blow can be much harder.

And so, we started to talk about the guarantees and as you can see right now that they're not happy with them. So, here we are.

AMANPOUR: Yes, here we are. And that's what is -- that's what is, you know, the crux of the matter right now.

But I want to ask you about this sudden pause, this abrupt halt in aid that the United States, the Trump administration, has done. Stopping military aid to you, and stopping battlefield intelligence.

I just want to say that apparently, the pause will halt the delivery of interceptor missiles, for Patriots, air defense systems, et cetera, which have, as we know, saved a huge amount of lives on civilian and critical energy infrastructure.

I just want to ask you as a former defense minister, if you don't get this stuff and the battlefield intelligence, what is the result on the ground?

ZAGORODNYUK: Well, frankly speaking, it's quite clear to all Ukrainians because we live in this for three years. And we've been bombarded by missiles and drones, literally here in Kyiv every night.

And certainly, if we don't receive the information about their arrival or their -- actually their launches, which comes from understanding, like, movements of the troops, movements of the equipment around Russia, preparing in the airfields, you know, launching the -- their planes which carry the missiles, et cetera, et cetera, or ships which also carry missiles.

So, if we don't see this information in advance, we wouldn't be able to transmit it to our citizens and they wouldn't have a time to go to the shelters.

If we don't have that information, there is enormous amount of people will be exposed to these risks without any chance to save themselves. So, obviously, that's very serious, to say at least.

AMANPOUR: You know, for us who've been covering this and myself amongst many of my colleagues who've been there covering it on the ground, it does seem a very hard thing to internalize and compute that the U.S. has completely swapped its position. Why do you think it's doing it?

ZAGORODNYUK: Frankly speaking, I wouldn't guess. We clearly are in a very strange situation because we -- for like 30 years we had United States government as our closest ally, as a major ally in the terms of the investments and, you know, military support for these 10 years of war when it started in 2014 we are being supported by United States, by all governments, all parties, bipartisan support, et cetera.

I know for a fact that this same amount of people who supported us before they still support us now. Military, civilians, you know, we have a huge, you know -- but the fact that the government, right now, decides to withhold things, it's, of course, it's very, very difficult to process.

I sincerely hope that the negotiations will go through and we will resume the military cooperation, because that's how we can save the stability. There's no other way.

Ukraine is certainly ready for peace. There's absolutely no doubt for that. Ukraine certainly is ready for diplomacy. I don't think anybody doubted that.

And I think that it's a time for a proper cooperation between U.S. and Ukraine without the emotions and without the -- some analogies.

AMANPOUR: Andriy Zagorodnyuk, former defense minister, thank you for joining us from Kyiv.

ZAGORODNYUK: Thank you, Christiane.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Coming up, I asked former U.S. marine and Congressman Seth Moulton why his country seems to have swiveled on its very axis.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MOULTON: A lot of Republicans totally disagree with the president. They're just too scared to say it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Also ahead, a path forward in the war-torn Middle East. Palestinian and Israeli activists, Rula Hardal and May Pundak share their vision for peace.

[11:09:08]

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back.

European allies call this a watershed moment, as this week we've seen the Trump administration pile on after the Oval Office debacle with President Zelenskyy. They've cut off Ukraine from vital U.S. military aid and critical battlefield intelligence.

The big picture has been an unprecedented move away from traditional allies on the continent and towards Putin's Russia. The big question remains why and whether the U.S. is prepared for the devastating consequences of abandoning those democracies and realigning with strongman authoritarians.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau of Canada isn't mincing words about the head spinning American pivot.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUSTIN TRUDEAU, CANADIAN PRIME MINISTER: The United States launched a trade war against Canada, their closest partner and ally. Their closest friend.

At the same time, they're talking about working positively with Russia, appeasing Vladimir Putin, a lying, murderous dictator. Make that make sense.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[11:14:55]

AMANPOUR: So I put all this to Democratic Congressman Seth Moulton, a former U.S. marine.

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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

Can you answer Justin Trudeau, the prime minister's question, make that make sense? The trade war on allies, while as Justin Trudeau said, dealing with a murderous dictator, Vladimir Putin.

MOULTON: It doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense at all. And I'm not proud to stand here as an American, let alone a representative of our government, and say that to a foreign leader.

We're supposed to be united as a country when it comes to dealing with both our allies and our adversaries. But there is no unity in America on this point. We are selling our allies out. And we are cozying up to dictators under Donald Trump.

AMANPOUR: But why? Why do you think that? Why -- what is the overarching plan or vision?

MOULTON: He is willing to get peace at all costs, even selling out to Russia. Donald Trump has had a longstanding relationship with Vladimir Putin. This is not the first time that he's cozied up to Russia.

I remember there was a time back in his first term when he actually said he trusts Putin more than the CIA. I don't know what to say when you have a commander in chief who trusts Putin more than the CIA.

AMANPOUR: I want to ask you about Ukraine because this is a huge, massive deal. Overseas, there is a genuine fear about which way America is going, which way it's aligning itself. It appears against allies towards Putin, you know.

And President Macron, who's trying to come up with a peace deal and has offered troops, et cetera, to enforce, has said, we all want peace in Ukraine, but not at any price.

Why do you -- well, first react to that view from the French prime minister?

MOULTON: Well, first of all, it's a totally reasonable view that's held by the majority of Americans. And this is important for people overseas to understand, is that Trump is really on an island here.

Now, he has a bunch of isolationist Republicans supporting him, but I was at the Munich Security Conference two weekends ago. And I sat in a bipartisan delegation, Republicans and Democrats, as we met with our European allies and as we met with Zelenskyy. And what you heard was unanimous bipartisan support for Ukraine.

So, Republicans are the ones who are suddenly changing their story to support the president in his crazy crusade to back Vladimir Putin in this murderous war.

The president changes his tune and suddenly you have prominent Republicans like Lindsey Graham and a whole bunch of rank-and-file Republicans as well suddenly completely spinning their stories to justify supporting Trump.

That's not what you heard here behind the scenes. Republicans are saying something completely different in private from what they say in public.

That tells you a lot. I mean, they're just, frankly cowards. And they're unwilling to stand up to the president and tell the truth.

But it's also important for people internationally to know that it's not like all of a sudden America believes what the president is saying and America fully supports Donald Trump in his actions.

No. Even in Congress, a lot of Republicans totally disagree with the president, they're just too scared to say it.

AMANPOUR: Well -- and in the meantime then, you've got the president suspending military aid to Ukraine, a billion dollars' worth. You've got the CIA director confirming reports that they have also suspended intelligence to Ukraine.

I mean, it was so vital during the years of this war to have that intelligence as to, you know, battlefield intelligence. Why are they doing this?

MOULTON: I mean, Christiane, let me just start by saying, as someone who's been on the ground, serving in the infantry, you know, in the trenches, in the mud, in my case in Iraq, I can't imagine what it must be like for one of these frontline troops suddenly hearing that their intelligence has been cut off; intelligence that they've relied on for two years.

The reality is that the fight in Ukraine has gone so well largely because of American intelligence. In fact, I could make an argument that American intelligence is even more important to this fight than American arms.

AMANPOUR: But why?

MOULTON: They get arms from a lot of places, but it's the American intelligence that's so important.

So, people have to understand just how devastating this is to Ukraine. And the only answer that we get from the administration is somehow this is Donald Trump trying to put the screws to Zelenskyy, trying to put the screws to an ally -- an ally that he just shamed in front of the international press.

There is no good reason why. I can't stand here and give you an honest answer for why that Trump is doing this, other than to just simply state the obvious, which is that he seems to have taken sides in this war, and Donald Trump -- again, not every American -- but Donald Trump has taken the side of Vladimir Putin.

[11:19:48]

AMANPOUR: All right. Congressman Moulton, thank you very much indeed for joining us.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: By Friday, after Putin refused Zelenskyy's partial ceasefire offer and pounded Ukraine again, Trump said he was considering sanctions on Russia ahead of an expected meeting next week between the U.S. and Ukraine.

Still to come what cutting off U.S. foreign aid means to the world? My report from Afghanistan with the women and children who need it most. [11:20:17]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back.

The Supreme Court this week ordered the Trump administration to end its war on humanitarian aid and unfreeze billions of dollars approved by Congress for foreign aid.

And more than 700 foreign service officials have signed a dissent letter urging Trump's Secretary of State Marco Rubio to unfreeze that aid and stop the dismantling of USAID, arguing the move harms U.S. interests abroad.

Now in Afghanistan, this assistance has always helped mostly the women and children who face serious malnutrition now, with the World Food Programme and other aid donors struggling to fund relief efforts, 40 percent of which previously came from the United States.

Aid was already in short supply since the Trump deal that got American forces out and the Taliban back in as I witnessed firsthand a year later.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Under a scorching sun, standing patiently for hours in organized lines, hundreds of newly-poor Afghans wait for their monthly handout. Men on one side, women on the other.

Here, the U.N.'s World Food Programme is delivering cash assistance, the equivalent of $43 per family.

Khalid Ahmadzai is the coordinator. He says he's seen the need explode. And right from the start, the stories are dire.

KHALID AHMADZAI, WORLD FOOD PROGRAMME COOPERATING PARTNER: A few days ago, when women came -- a woman came to camp to me, and she told me that I want to give you my son by 16,000 Afghani. Just give me the Afghani. And he was -- she was really crying. And that was the worst feeling that I had in my life.

AMANPOUR: Are you serious?

AHMADZAI: This is a serious thing. That we had a distribution at the first day. So the hunger is too much high here.

AMANPOUR: You know, we've heard those stories, but I've never heard it --

AHMADZAI: Yes.

AMANPOUR: -- from somebody who's actually seen it.

AHMADZAI: Yes, I have seen it. It's too much really and it hurts me a lot. AMANPOUR: Everyone we met is hurting. According to the International

Rescue Committee, almost half the population of Afghanistan lives on less than one meal a day. And the U.N. says nearly 9 million people risk famine-like conditions.

Khatima (ph) is a widow. "They should let us work because we have to become the men of the family so we can find bread for the children. None of my six kids have shoes, and with 3,000 Afghanis, what will I be able to do in six months' time?"

You just want work. "I have to work," she says.

At this WFP distribution site in Kabul, you do see women working and women mostly with their faces uncovered.

Outside Taliban slogans plastered over the blast walls tout victory over the Americans and claim to be of the people, for the people. But while security has improved since they took over, the country is facing economic collapse.

And that shows up all over the tiny bodies we see at the Indira Gandhi Children's Hospital. It's the biggest in Afghanistan, now heaving (ph) under the extra weight.

Dr. Mohammad Yaqob Sharafat tells us that 20 to 30 percent of the babies in this neonatal ward are malnourished. Suddenly, he rushes to the side of one who stopped breathing.

For five minutes we watched him pump his heart until he comes back to life. But for how long? Even in the womb, the decks are stacked against them.

DR. MOHAMMAD YAQOB SHARAFAT, INDIRA GANDHI INSTITUTE OF CHILD HEALTH: From one side, the mothers are not getting well nutrition.

AMANPOUR: Wow. So it's a triple whammy. The mothers aren't nourished enough.

SHARAFAT: Yes.

AMANPOUR: The economy is bad.

SHARAFAT: Bad.

AMANPOUR: They have too many children.

And they're overworking themselves.

SHARAFAT: So all these factors together make this situation to give birth premature babies.

AMANPOUR: Because they're under sanctions, the Taliban is struggling to pay salaries. So the International Committee of the Red Cross pays all the doctors and nurses at this hospital and at 32 others across the country. That's about 10,000 health workers in all.

Look at this child. Two and a half years old.

His name is Mohammed. He's malnourished.

How much food is she able to give her child at home? Why does -- why does he look like this? His mother says she's had nothing but breast milk to feed him, but now can't afford enough to eat to keep producing even that.

It's the same for Shazia, her seven-month-old baby has severe pneumonia, but at least she gets fed here at the hospital so that she can breastfeed her daughter.

[11:29:51]

AMANPOUR: "Back home, we don't have this kind of food, unfortunately," she says. "If we have food for lunch, we don't have anything for dinner.

While we're here, the electricity has gone out.

"It happens all the time," the director tells us.

We watch a doctor carry on by the light of a mobile phone until the electricity comes back we end this day in the tiniest dwellings amongst the poorest of Kabul's poor.

Waliullah and Basmina (ph) have six children. She tells us their ten- month-old baby is malnourished.

"I always worry and stress about this, says Basmina. But she tells her kids God will be kind to us one day.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Aid agencies say the global effects of the sudden cut off in American assistance have already been devastating, so the pipeline can't start flowing quickly enough.

After the break, hope and vision. These two women share a way forward for the Middle East.

[11:30:56]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

This week, President Trump announced a break from longstanding policy when the White House confirmed direct negotiations with Hamas, while also issuing a, quote, "last warning" demanding that all hostages be released, and promising Israel everything it needs to finish the job in Gaza.

But even in the darkness of this moment, some still see an opportunity for change, like A Land For All. Their vision: two states, one homeland. Here to explain how that would work are co-directors, the Israeli

human rights lawyer May Pundak and Palestinian political scientist Rula Hardal.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: It is so good to have you here. We've spoken down the line, as we say, via satellite several times throughout these terrible past 16 months and always energized by your commitment to togetherness and to hope and a vision.

So, I know there are grassroots movements, but you've been so, you know, dedicated and you keep working. You're Israeli-Jewish, you are, I believe, Palestinian with Israeli citizenship.

RULA HARDAL, CO-DIRECTOR, A LAND FOR ALL: Yes.

AMANPOUR: That means you have a sort of a special status. You can come into Tel Aviv, you can work with May. But that also is a bit about how you view the possible solution. Not a two-state solution as is already envisioned, but something different, a confederation.

MAY PUNDAK, CO-DIRECTOR, A LAND FOR ALL: Correct.

AMANPOUR: Tell me.

PUNDAK: So, what we normally say is that we're a two-state solution but with a twist, or a two-state solution that can work. And that means that we call ourselves two states, one homeland.

And so, there are a few things that kind of differentiate us from the classic two states, which is, yes, we advocate for a two-state solution, to sovereign, democratic, independent states in the 67 Green Line border, Israel and Palestine border, everything we know about the two states.

And we recognize the shared homeland, meaning that, at this point of time, Israelis and Palestinians are interdependent and intertwined and share so many challenges, but also share the future, shared natural resources.

And that needs to be translated into the political vision, and that translates both into the needs and aspirations and attachments to the two people -- of the two people to the homeland, but also on very practical levels.

And so, when you think about public health on combating things like COVID or like polio diseases, we have to do that jointly.

If you think about shared resources like water, the water and sewage of Gaza runs into the Mediterranean water that -- and then it gets to Tel Aviv a day after. You have to share these institutions, shared institutions to tackle these things.

HARDAL: I would add to what May was saying about our model, is that we start from recognizing the reality on the ground that we have two people, two national groups, and they have the right to claim their right for self-determination.

And we start from this point of acknowledging that, and then we go to the practicalities of the solution. Because it's important to emphasize that because there is an ongoing, long-term negation of the right of the Palestinian people for their right for self- determination.

AMANPOUR: And I actually find that part really interesting because you have said, the both of you, it's part of your mandate, that yes, there are Palestinians who claim homes in areas that are in actual Israel proper.

You don't -- none of this is intended to -- if they're refugees or whoever comes, to move people out of homes and swap people into homes.

PUNDAK: Yes, I think --

AMANPOUR: So, how does that work?

PUNDAK: Right. So, I think that what we're offering is really a model that is keeping the two-state solution in regards to equality -- collective and individual equality, and the right for self- determination, and the attachment of both people to the entire homeland, meaning the shared attachment, but also the shared reality and the interdependency.

And that means that what we're trying to do is change the reality on the ground, use the reality on the ground to get to a solution by reassuring the principles of equality and a shared future.

[11:39:48]

PUNDAK: And that means that we're aspiring for -- for example, Jerusalem should be a shared capital. For example --

AMANPOUR: It was envisioned as that, even under the last peace proposal.

PUNDAK: Exactly.

AMANPOUR: Yes.

PUNDAK: And referring to your previous question, if we do learn from the E.U., if we do learn from Northern Ireland, if we do -- if we do learn from other conflicts that have been solved in a sustainable way, not perfect, but sustainable, where there's no more bloodshed, that goes to very tight cooperation and an understanding of shared interests and shared challenges met together.

AMANPOUR: Well, one of the big shared challenges is that it doesn't seem anybody is ready for this now, not your extremist politicians and certainly not traumatized populations on both sides.

PUNDAK: Yes.

AMANPOUR: And so, how do you get people, because it's going to be people who have to agree in the end, to do this?

HARDAL: Well, people need to agree. I fully agree with you, but at the same time, having -- or going toward a political solution and political settlement is a political decision.

And it should start from the high level of having a political decision that we are ending the situation of, you know, having a military control on other people and having this ongoing violence without doing any symmetry between the both sides because, you know, we cannot do this symmetry. But it's a political decision.

We can wait another 100 years until people, maybe on both sides, can be ready or will be ready, but we don't have the luxury and the privilege to wait another 100 years.

So, we are trying, yes, to work on this level, to encourage people to have this shift to believe that if they want to have a better future, they need to act for it and to think differently. But we need also -- and we act actually on both political and diplomatic levels in the world and in Israel and in Palestine because we need a political decision.

AMANPOUR: Thank you, May -- May, I know you go by both -- and Rula, thank you so much indeed.

HARDAL: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: When we come back, we go back to Afghanistan as we mark International Women's Day and the Taliban tries to erase women from all public life.

[11:42:06]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

As we mark International Women's Day, perhaps nowhere is the fight for women's basic rights more urgent than in Afghanistan. Since the Taliban's takeover more than three years ago, half the population is now largely being erased from public life.

Women and girls are forbidden from gatherings or even speaking. They're restricted from work in most sectors and banned from studying in high schools and universities.

Back in 2022, I saw this crackdown begin and I spoke to women and girls whose dreams of an education and a career were crushed overnight.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Wednesday morning in Kabul, and we're going to girls' school through these plastic curtains and past prying eyes. Yes, this fashion studio has become an alternate education facility since the Taliban stopped girls from attending government high schools.

17-year-old Rokhsar wanted to be a doctor. Now she's learning to be a dressmaker.

"We're feeling very bad," she tells us. "Girls are not able to go to school, staying home, doing nothing. We hope that this will change our life, so we can be self-sufficient, have a profession, learn, earn money to support ourselves and our families."

Neda wanted to be a professional soccer player.

You're 17. You have never known the Taliban government. Did you ever imagine that this would happen to you, that you would be prevented from going to school?

"No, never. We tried our best for our future. But it's a dark one now, because we're kept away from our schools."

Nageena Hafizi started this fashion business with her sisters four years ago. Today, she's running the resistance.

When the Taliban slammed the door in their faces, she opened hers up to high school girls, aiming to have them sufficiently trained to earn a living and support themselves within 6 to 12 months. She does this for 120 girls and women across three locations.

You're helping them, but they all want to be doctors, or an athlete, or, you know, professionals. They want to go on to university. How do you feel about them having to be embroiderers or dressmakers?

"This is very upsetting," says Nageena. "When someone is following their own dreams, it's very good. It's different when they're forced into doing something else. And it's a bad feeling because most of these girls wanted to go to university, become a doctor, a teacher, an engineer.

It's very difficult for them, and I know that they can't do any other work. So at least they can learn the dressmaking profession for their future."

For the record, the powerful deputy Taliban leader Sirajuddin Haqqani told me that girls' public high schools would open again soon and that, of course, women have the right to work within the Islamic framework.

But 26 years ago, I had the same conversations about the same issues when the Taliban was first in charge.

[11:49:51]

AMANPOUR: A lot of people want to know what you're going to do about the women issue. What about women's education, girls' education, women working, widows who have no other way to support themselves? SHER MOHAMMAD ABBAS STANIKZAI, FORMER DEPUTY TALIBAN FOREIGN MINISTER: I know that, especially in Western news media, it's the propaganda against us that we are against women education, which is not right. It is not correct.

AMANPOUR: But the girls can't go to school. We have been to schools here that are all closed.

STANIKZAI: We have just told them that, for the time being, they should not come to office and school, so -- until the time that we can come out with some sort of solution.

AMANPOUR: Even the youngest understand something is not right. 10- year-old Aziza (ph) complains about having to stay home all day.

"We just do housework, cleaning, baking bread and sweeping the floors," she says.

FARANAZ, CIVIL ENGINEER: I love my work. It's my right to work. And I need to work, because I got education in this country, and the government spent money on me, and even my family. And I want to express myself to my society.

AMANPOUR: Brave then, brave now. Only now, after more than two decades of progress for their wives, their daughters and their family incomes, so many more Afghan men support them.

Hajinor Ahma (ph) tells us not even 1 percent of Afghan people are against women working.

"We don't want our people to grow up as if we're in a jungle. We want people to have culture, knowledge. We need food and work."

Back at the design studio, these classes are not only open to high school students, but to older women who are suddenly out of work, like 30-year-old Rabia, who's a teacher.

"We feel suffocated," she says. "Why can't we, in our own country, our own place, live freely, move freely? Wherever we go, whatever work we do, they put barriers in our way. We can't reach our goals in life. We're always afraid, whether the previous government or the Taliban's emirate regime."

Rabia comes here to retrain and, like many of the mothers and wives, to have some kind of social life, like Norjan (ph), whose daughter, Neda wanted to become a soccer player.

"When I'm really upset," she tells me, "my husband says I should come here, so that at least I can meet others. My husband is so kind. We are all sisters here."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: A moving display of sisterhood. And since my trip there almost three years ago, it's just gotten worse and worse for women and girls in the public space. But also, there are many stories of basic resistance with those who can, learning and engaging underground online.

When we come back, the struggle for equality in America 60 years since the Selma marches.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDREW YOUNG, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: Almost every time we went out on a demonstration, we knew we could possibly not come back. But we continue to go.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[11:52:49]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: And finally, as Donald Trump takes a side to diversity and inclusion programs in the United States, let's look back for a moment at the struggle for racial equality.

This week marks 60 years since the Selma protests, when thousands of people began a peaceful march towards Montgomery, Alabama demanding racial equality. But it descended into violence when state troopers attacked the demonstrators.

Civil rights icon and the first African-American ambassador to the U.N., Andrew Young, was there, and he ended up in jail. I spoke to him back in 2022 about paving the way for change.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

YOUNG: Almost every time we went out on a demonstration, we knew we could possibly not come back but we continue to go. And I've made it to almost 90.

I remember Martin Luther King saying that, look we are -- and he called us. He said, you know, we are a bunch of clinically-insane individuals.

And he said, nobody in their right mind would think that here we are, 15 or 15, 20 people, all of us under 30 or under 40. And he said, you got to be sick to think that with no money and only the resources we have in our minds and souls and spirits, that we can change this nation.

And he said we might not make it to 50, but if we make it to 50, we got to make it to 100 because it's going to take 100 years or so to get this country right.

And we were changing America bit by bit, and we were changing the world bit by bit. And I don't -- there's another song that we used to sing.

"I don't feel no ways tired." We've come too far from where we started from. And nobody told us that the way would be easy. But I don't believe he brought us this far to leave us. (END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Andrew Young, acknowledging the struggle for human rights, democracy and even survival is a never-ending one.

[11:59:50]

AMANPOUR: It reminds me of the Ukrainian President Zelenskyy who's fighting for all of that right now on the European battlefield against a brutal invader.

No one told him it would be easy, but they, the Ukrainians say they have come too far for it to end in surrender now.

That's all we have time for. Don't forget you can find all of our shows online as podcasts at cnn.com/audio and on all other major platforms.

I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. Thank you for watching and see you again next week.