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The Amanpour Hour

Interview With German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock; Interview With Former U.S. Ambassador To Hungary David Pressman; How Will Le Pen's Conviction Impact French Politics?; Interview With Pediatrician Tanya Haj-Hassan; Interview With INARA Co-founder Arwa Damon; Conclave After Death Of John Paul II 20 Years Ago; Olivier Awards: The Best Of British Theater. Aired 11a-12p ET

Aired April 05, 2025 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:00:37]

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. And welcome to THE AMANPOUR HOUR.

Here's where we're headed this week.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You know, you think of European Union, very friendly. They rip us off. It's so sad to see. It's so pathetic.

AMANPOUR: Trump says he wants to end wars. Unless, apparently it's a global trade war. German foreign minister Annalena Baerbock on why Europe plans to retaliate.

ANNALENA BAERBOCK, GERMAN FOREIGN MINISTER: In case that free trade is not possible with our best friends and best partners anymore then we are prepared to protect ourselves.

AMANPOUR: Then, slouching towards authoritarianism, former U.S. ambassador to Orban's Hungary David Pressman, with the playbook for Trump's America.

DAVID PRESSMAN, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO HUNGARY: What you see is not conservativism, but what you see is corruption.

AMANPOUR: And Trump is president despite a felony conviction. Could the same happen for France's far-right leader, Marine Le Pen?

Correspondent Melissa Bell breaks down what her conviction this week means.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If not Marine, it will be Bardella. But we will get there. That's for sure.

AMANPOUR: Plus, the horror of Gaza under siege. I speak to aid worker Tanya Haj Hassan who's just left, and Arwa Damon who's being blocked from going in.

TANYA HAJ-HASSAN, PEDIATRICIAN: What red line has not been crossed?

AMANPOUR: Also, "Conclave", Pope Francis recovers back in the Vatican. But can he still run the church?

From my archives, the decline and death of John Paul II 20 years ago and the search for his successor.

And finally, it's the Olivier Awards this weekend, Britain's celebration of theater. The late Angela Lansbury once made history there as royalty, striding the boards.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.

Looted, pillaged, raped and plundered -- that's President Trump's extraordinary accusation against economic competitors and allies alike. His massive tariffs across the world go into effect today.

He calls it economic independence day for America. The rest of the world sees it as a declaration of global economic war.

Europe has been hit hard with 20 percent. While some economists see a role for carefully targeted tariffs in some cases, this is not that. Most say Trump's action amounts to unprecedented protectionism unseen in more than a century.

Polls show a majority of Americans think the new tariffs will hurt their economy and their pocketbooks.

Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut summed up how Democrats feel about the move.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): I think at this point, you have to assume that Trump is intentionally trying to send the economy into a recession. And I understand that that doesn't make sense If you are treating American politics as normal.

But nothing is normal here right now. Trump appears to be very intentionally trying to transition America away from a -- away from a democracy to some form of autocracy. And part of the way you do that is to create crises.

Listen, tariffs can work. I'm a believer that -- that targeted tariffs combined with domestic industrial policy incentives to create manufacturing capacity in this country can be good policy.

But I think you have to acknowledge that's not what he's doing. He is applying tariffs with absolutely no corresponding domestic industrial incentives. And thus all that's going to happen here is prices are going to go way

up, You know, on cars, for instance, maybe $3,000 immediately. And there's going to be very little job creation in the United States.

So I think that's the reality is that the underlying motivation is recession and chaos.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: As for over here around the world, leaders are trying to grapple with how to respond to this chaos. Europe must also deal with an administration that's cutting them loose on defense and security, while appearing intent on ending the war in Ukraine on Russia's terms.

German foreign minister Annalena Baerbock visited Kyiv this week and afterwards joined us from NATO headquarters in Brussels.

I spoke to her just after Trump had announced his tariffs.

[11:04:51]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Foreign Minister Baerbock, welcome back to the program.

BAERBOCK: Thanks for having me on your show again. That's really an honor.

AMANPOUR: Are you in shock? I mean, it just seems like the whole world has been slapped around with these tariffs, including Europe, up to 20 percent. What is your immediate reaction?

BAERBOCK: This is not a good day for world economy, and it's definitely not a day of liberation for American consumers, but rather a day of inflation.

But for us, Europeans, frankly speaking, it's a day of unity because we have set up in the past three years measures to protect our people, to protect our economy.

Our jobs actually meant towards China because they were threaten us, our economy, they were threatening the free trade. And therefore, we set up measures against coercion, but we believe in free trade and we believe in partnership.

And this is why the Commission president, Ursula von der Leyen has made clear that we don't want a trade war because everybody would suffer from a trade war. And the only actors who would win would be those fighting the free world.

But in case that free trade is not possible with our best friends and best partners anymore, then we are prepared to protect ourselves. But I mean, we have shown that we are not only NATO allies, security allies, but even in the NATO treaty, there is a paragraph in the beginning of saying that also a free economy between partners is securing our common security. And therefore, I believe working together is the best answer in these

days where the ruthlessness is taking all over and democracies have to be strong together.

AMANPOUR: You know, the Americans, again, Scott Bessent, who's the Treasury secretary, has told CNN, I urge Europe, I urge other countries not to retaliate.

I wonder how you take that. And specifically, have you mentioned how you feel and what you might do to the U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio, who's at the meetings with you now at NATO headquarters?

BAERBOCK: Well, we have mentioned that we Europeans feel also a bit of pity for American consumers because all the products, I named now European countries, but also the countries from the Indo-Pacific, they have also now new trades tariffs, but the trade tariffs are actually extra taxes on American consumers.

For example, like as I know, many Americans like a lot the beef from Australia. And the beef -- if the beef costs now extra 10 percent or other products which you cannot produce in the United States, will cost extra 20 percent or extra even 35 percent.

I don't really get the logic why to harm American consumers. And this is why, for our own consumers, we say it would be a win-win situation if consumers, in our democracies, between our friends over the Atlantic, in the United States, in Europe pay the less prices possibly, which can -- products can be produced. So, it would be a win-win situation.

If we would go into a trade war, it would be a lose-lose situation for all the consumers over the Atlantic. And again, I cannot say that often enough because in countries which are not having a free economy and the state can dictate the prices, they will be the winners. And why should we make systems to winners who are opposing the free world?

AMANPOUR: So, let me then follow up because you are facing a real issue with Putin who is opposing the free world with this now, you know, three-plus year war in Ukraine, full-scale war.

As you know, he has sent his main negotiator to Washington. They've been talking. We don't know what the results are. Have you heard from your American colleague, Rubio how these talks are going? How do you see the communication so far between the United States and Putin helping to resolve the war? What is your assessment at this point?

BAERBOCK: It was a big success that with the talks in Jeddah also due to the U.S. administration, for the first time, the word "peace" was on the table also from the Russian side.

[11:09:53]

BAERBOCK: And the Ukrainians immediately said, we want a ceasefire now, an unconditional ceasefire because Ukrainians are wishing for peace since three years. But we have seen, unfortunately, that Putin is playing time and that he's obviously fooling the world. Because I have just been to Ukraine myself and (INAUDIBLE). And while I was in Kyiv, in Kherson, there has been a Russian attack on energy infrastructure.

So, Putin promised also to the American team that he will not attack energy infrastructure, but while the German foreign minister was there, there was an attack in Kherson.

And this is why we Europeans lifted our engagement for Ukraine over the last couple of weeks, making clear Europe is standing for peace.

AMANPOUR: Annalena Baerbock, Foreign Minister, thank you very much for joining us.

BAERBOCK: Thank you. All the best.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Now coming up later on this show, is Trump's America learning from Orban's Hungary? I ask former U.S. Ambassador David Pressman if the U.S. is following that autocratic playbook.

Also ahead, is it the end of Marine Le Pen's presidential dreams? A report on the future of the far right in France after their leader is found guilty of embezzlement.

[11:11:21]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

With a fire hose of activity and action, President Trump is testing the boundaries of the U.S. Constitution, and most certainly the limits of executive power, even floating the idea of a third term.

Those who follow these trends see stark parallels with Viktor Orban's Hungary. For years, he's been tightening his grip on all the democratic institutions, proudly reshaping his nation as an illiberal democracy.

This week, he announced Hungary would be withdrawing from the International Criminal Court as he welcomed the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, who's under an ICC arrest warrant for alleged war crimes in Gaza.

But for all of that, after 14 years of autocratic populism, Hungary is one of the poorest in Europe With unemployment rising and the population shrinking.

One American saw this deterioration up close, David Pressman. He was U.S. Ambassador to Hungary from 2022 until this year. And he joined me to discuss where America could be headed and his own experiences working with Orban.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Let me start with your own story. You went to Hungary as a longtime, I guess, foreign service officer. You were made ambassador in 2022. You're the first openly-gay U.S. ambassador to Hungary. And you suddenly became very famous.

You know, U.S. ambassadors don't usually become that famous, but your name, your face, was all over the newspapers before you even set foot there. We have this image of a boat on the River Danube with your name and a skull and crossbones, and it says, Mr. Pressman, don't colonize Hungary with your cult of death. What did you think was going on there?

PRESSMAN: I mean, it's outrageous, and they were scared of me. And I think one of the things that the Hungarian government has constructed over the course of the last 14 years that Viktor Orban has been in power is architecting essentially an ecosystem of rewards and punishment.

And what they do with that is they try to render voices who are dissenting voices or voices who may have a perspective that is critical of some of the policies of the Hungarian government. They try to render those people individually radioactive.

So, one of the tactics certainly they took vis-a-vis me as the representative of the president of the United States in Hungary, was to attempt -- even before I ever stepped foot in the country, was to attempt to focus Hungarians' minds on the fact that I was gay.

And, you know, Christiane, I remember one of the very first meetings I had with a senior Hungarian official and I sit down in this meeting, really nice guy.

I sit down and he opens the conversation by saying, Ambassador Pressman, I know you're here and you want to discuss gender ideology and LGBT issues.

And I had to interrupt the guy and say no, no, no, I don't want to discuss that. I want to discuss your relationship with Vladimir Putin and your relationship with the Chinese Communist Party.

But what they -- what ended up happening is it ended up giving me and my team a platform that is, as you know, pretty unusual for a U.S. ambassador.

AMANPOUR: Indeed. Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

PRESSMAN: And we certainly tried to leverage that to communicate with Hungarians.

AMANPOUR: OK. So, I've spoken to their foreign minister often, and they very proudly admit that they are, quote/unquote, "an illiberal democracy." They like it. You know, they have weaponized woke, you know, the press, the courts,

LGBTQ -- it all falls into the basket of saving Hungary. I've seen it said, making Hungary great again.

[11:19:51]

AMANPOUR: How did Orban do that? I mean, again, he was elected democratically. How did it go from that to this?

PRESSMAN: I think it's really, really important that your viewers internationally and in the United States understand that this is not about liberalism or conservatism.

This is about small d democracy and Hungary's relationship with Putin and Xi Jinping. And in addition, it's not about liberalism and conservatism.

I mean, the Hungarians, as you know, hold themselves out as sort of this bulwark against this corrupt, decaying western values and transgender ideology and migration and all these things when, in fact, what's happening in Hungary is a country that is consistently ranked one of the poorest countries in Europe, for the last two years running has been ranked the most corrupt country in the European Union and is really struggling.

And so, what the political impetus is for the prime minister is to focus Hungarians on all of these outside adversaries and enemies, whether it be George Soros, whether it be Ursula von der Leyen, whether it be the United States ambassador to try to explain why Hungary is suffering in the way that it is and is not performing as its peers are.

Now, with respect to the media ecosystem, look, the media ecosystem in Hungary at this point in the United States government's estimate and independent estimates was controlled 85 percent by a single political party, by Viktor Orban's party.

And what happened is an oligarch class that was enriched through these corrupt deals, often through Russian energy deals and other corrupt deals, including with China. Bought up all of the media outlets, all of the radio stations, all of the television stations, all of the print outlets.

And now -- and donated those assets to a foundation, of which the board of directors of that foundation is all party loyalists. And that they get editorial direction on a weekly basis from Viktor Orban's government.

So, what happened was while they were talking about woke-ism there was a wholesale removal of public assets into private pockets.

And so, for those who are looking to Hungary as an inspiration of somehow standing up for values and ideas that Americans have different views about, I really think that some facts in this conversation are necessary and important because I think when you look at what's happening, what you see is not conservatism, but what you see is corruption.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: After the break, political failure or fuel for the far right. Marine Le Pen is found guilty of embezzlement this week, a report from Paris on what it means for France.

[11:22:30]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back.

A guilty verdict in France this week could determine the fate of the far right and its ambitions to lead the country in the 2027 presidential elections. The far-right politician Marine Le Pen was convicted this week as part of an embezzlement scheme of more than 4 million of euros of European Union funds. She's vowed to appeal.

As anti-immigrant, anti-woke and protectionist policies gained traction across Europe, she's been steadily rising to the top in France. So what next? Does the rule of law triumph? How will her supporters respond?

Of course, they see Donald Trump, who was convicted in the United States, still elected president.

CNN's Melissa Bell in Paris breaks it all down for us.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MELISSA BELL, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Three times she stood for president, three times she lost, coming in second twice.

But Marine Le Pen, who's 56, seemed certain that 2027 would be hers for the taking until Monday, when a Paris court decided otherwise.

With an immediate five-year ban on Le Pen standing in any election, the judges outlining how her far-right party had embezzled more than US$5 million over the course of 11 years, allowing it to become the political force that it is today.

But Le Pen stormed out even before the rest of her sentence had been read out. It includes a fine to try to get some of that money back, and a prison sentence -- two years suspended and two years under house arrest. Le Pen making her fury plain the very next day in parliament.

MARINE LE PEN, FRENCH FAR-RIGHT LEADER: We will defend ourselves. We will use all means at our disposal to allow the French people to choose their future leader and we will win.

BELL: The French prime minister also called on the judiciary to move swiftly on her appeal, and a decision is now expected in 2026, which means that Le Pen may yet be able to stand.

The question now, what this judicial saga will mean for a party that's always been about cleaning up the swamp?

VINCENT MARTIGNY, PROFESSOR OF POLITICAL SCIENCE: The whole RN narrative about politics Is that the elites are corrupted, and that the RN is the only party that has never been convicted of any crime, any offense. And this narrative has ended a couple of days ago.

BELL: But the anger amongst Le Pen's supporters is real.

[11:29:48]

BELL: The judges involved in the decision are now under police protection and a protest is planned here on Paris' left bank on Sunday.

The real question now -- how this political and judicial uncertainty plays out in the court of public opinion.

CHRISTINE OCKRENT, JOURNALIST: On the whole public opinion thinks the judgment, the sentence, however harsh, is legitimate. The paradox is those very elected people are those who, a few years ago insisted that these very laws, which have just been executed, become harsher, starting with Marine Le Pen.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are we going to learn and actually implement a lifetime ban on eligibility for all those who have been convicted?

BELL: There's also the wider picture of surging far-right populism elsewhere. But Marine Le Pen's most vocal supporters may not be doing her any favors with the French electorate.

TRUMP: That's a big deal. That's a very big deal. But she was banned from running for five years, and she's the leading candidate. That sounds like this country. That sounds very much like this country.

MARTIGNY: Those who support her are Trump, Putin, Orban. Most people think that all these guys are very dangerous, that they are the villains of international politics.

And the fact that the RN is linked to them is not really good for the RN.

BELL: The RN or National Rally now has to figure out how it can remain what it's always been, a Le Pen family affair, even as it considers a Plan B that could take the shape of Jordan Bardella, the 29-year-old, who led the party to its first ever national victory in the European elections last year.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If not Le Pen, it will be Bardella. But we will get there. That's for sure.

BELL: Le Pen this week described Bardella as a formidable asset, but one she hoped the party would not need to deploy, quote, "sooner than necessary".

Melissa Bell, CNN -- Paris. (END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And the political upheaval in France continues to play out.

When we come back, the horrors in Gaza as 18 months of war continues. I speak to those who witnessed it all firsthand -- aid workers, Tanya Haj Hassan who's just left Gaza, and Arwa Damon who's blocked from reentering.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARWA DAMON, CO-FOUNDER, INTERNATIONAL NETWORK FOR AID, RELIEF AND ASSISTANCE: You can't describe Gaza. And what I'm hearing right now from our team on the ground there is that this is worse than anything that they have ever been through.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[11:32:27]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back.

It's nearly a year and a half since October 7th and the vicious war on Gaza. The Israeli defense minister Israel Katz this week announced an expansion of their military operation, including plans to seize even more land for, quote, "a security zone" meaning more large-scale evacuations of Palestinians.

Yet another blow to the people of Gaza, who have been continuously displaced and under relentless bombardment. As the death toll rises above 50,000 the bodies of 15 aid workers were recovered from what the U.N. calls a mass grave. They say the workers were killed one by one.

Israel's military says it did bury the bodies, and it is investigating.

Now the siege of Gaza continues with a complete blockade of humanitarian supplies entering the enclave. I spoke to two humanitarians who have seen the horrors close up. The American physician Tanya Haj-Hassan has just left Gaza after spending weeks there treating children. And Arwa Damon, a former CNN journalist turned charity founder who's desperately trying to get back in with aid for the people.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HAJ-HASSAN: Nothing I tell you right now can fully encapsulate the abhorrent catalog of atrocities that Israel has committed even in the last ten days I was in Gaza.

If you just look at those last ten days, in addition to Israel's vicious break of the ceasefire agreement, killing and maiming around 100 children per day in this last period, according to UNICEF. And I bore witness to a lot of that of children taking their last

breaths, children maimed in our intensive care unit, children who have been orphaned, children who will never move parts of their body again, or -- and in addition to that, in this -- in these last ten days, the Israeli military shelled a U.N. team, killing and maiming members of it, bombed the ICRC, the Red Cross offices directly hit Nasser Hospital, the hospital where I was based.

I was in the emergency department. They shelled the floor directly above me, killing two patients and injuring others. They completely leveled the only specialty -- cancer specialty hospital in the Gaza Strip.

And as you mentioned, they frankly executed 15 rescue workers -- nine paramedics, six civil defense service members and a U.N. worker, and then buried them in a mass grave.

[11:39:46]

HAJ-HASSAN: I mean, the U.N. and others spent over a week trying to rescue these people. And they had gone to Rafah to rescue others who had been injured.

And I can tell you, we passed through Rafah in the U.N. convoy as we were leaving Gaza. And I remember seeing some people running carrying a wounded person and thinking, we're an entire convoy of people who could help this person -- this person. And we couldn't stop because the Israeli forces would shoot at us, too, if we had stopped.

And in addition to just those crimes I just mentioned, they killed multiple Palestinian journalists in these last ten days at a time when international journalists are not let in, and Palestinian journalists, like Palestinian paramedics, like Palestinian rescue workers, like my Palestinian health care worker colleagues have been very courageously and incessantly providing humanitarian services to their people at a time when they're starving, when their families are in tents. (CROSSTALK)

HAJ-HASSAN: Palestinians at an alarming rate. And honestly, Christiane, I want to ask you what red line has not been crossed?

AMANPOUR: Well, that's the question. Frankly.

HAJ-HASSAN: I'd like you guys -- anybody to answer that question. What red line hasn't been crossed?

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: That is the question that we put out all the time when we're having these conversations, because the Israeli government is constantly saying, and we understand that this ceasefire which was meant to go into its second phase, which is the start of all of this the Israeli government said no, because they said the Hamas hadn't released the hostages.

So it's this constant cycle of repetitive orders and case counter case. And my question to you then Arwa is, now there's 16 or 17 months of this carnage, starting with the carnage in in Israel on October 7th and the carnage that's been wreaked over Gaza for more than a year, nearly a year and a half.

What exactly has it achieved? Because they still say they're going after Hamas militants?

DAMON: And this is what ends up begging the question of what then did you flatten all of Gaza for? And by what count are you unable to accomplish what it is that you need to accomplish?

And also, Christiane, remember, the Arab League put forward a proposal, a roadmap for Gaza recently that actually addresses all of Israel's concerns, including removing Hamas from both military power and political power. But that was rejected.

Arab states have even offered to take on the whole reconstruction effort when it comes to Gaza.

(CROSSTALK)

DAMON: That's part of this whole package --

AMANPOUR: -- like the U.S. and everything.

DAMON: Exactly. And the thing is, is what we are seeing right now and again, like, you know, Dr. Tanya is saying, you can't describe Gaza. And what I'm hearing right now from our team on the ground there is that this is worse than anything that they have ever been through, because operating in this space is impossible. What you need is impossible.

And it's not just the targeting of locations that were deconflicted or just the sort of inability to navigate a pattern to the bombing, right?

I was talking to a doctor. He was like, I'm afraid to leave my house because before, yes, it wasn't really a pattern, but you could kind of sort of predict what hours would be safe enough to make a run for it to the hospital. You can't predict that anymore.

Plus, you know, I should have been in Gaza. I was denied entry after having already been in Gaza four times.

AMANPOUR: Why is that? Because this is important.

DAMON: I don't know. I have been messaging COGAT repeatedly.

AMANPOUR: That's the Israeli organization --

DAMON: Coordination body.

AMANPOUR: Coordination body.

DAMON: Yes. That coordinates everything; repeatedly trying to get an answer to say, what concerns do you have? What can I address? What can I do to alleviate your concerns?

And I get zero response whatsoever. And it's not just me.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And you can watch that full conversation online.

Up next, "Conclave" as Pope Francis recovers from his illness back at the Vatican, the age-old question, who will govern the church next?

From my archives: 20 years ago, the search for Pope John Paul II successor. That's after the break.

[11:43:54]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back.

God works in mysterious ways they say. After a five-week battle with double pneumonia, the Vatican says Pope Francis' health is improving after revealing that he did come close to death in the hospital. Doctors prescribed him another two months of rest raising questions about just how much church business this pontiff can do now.

From migration to the war in Gaza and saving the environment, Pope Francis has become a moral voice on the global stage. One of the most liberal pontiffs in memory who tried to make the Catholic Church work for all of its faithful.

20 years ago this week, a much more conservative pope, but also hugely consequential and beloved, Pope John Paul II passed away after traveling the world, opening the church to interfaith dialog and giving it new life in Africa. Leaders like Ronald Reagan and the Polish president Lech Walesa attribute the beginning of the end of communism to his spiritual work.

20 years ago, just after his death, I covered the search for his successor.

[11:49:48]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: As pilgrims came to say goodbye to Pope John Paul II, they have also come, albeit in fewer numbers, but just as eager to see who the new pope will be, Catholics and non-Catholics, demonstrating the global significance of the papacy these days.

Sarah Haas is a student from Chicago.

SARAH HAAS, CHICAGO STUDENT: Everyone from around the world is there, all religions. But it doesn't matter because you all feel the same kind of unity.

AMANPOUR: But that unity or disunity is at the very heart of one of the Catholic Church's dilemmas, as it chooses a new pope.

The question is whether the next pope will be able to meet the needs of all the world's 1.1 billion Catholics. While congregations are growing in Africa, Asia and Latin America, in North America and Western Europe, they are shrinking and some there, in fact many, say that they need the church to reflect today's way of life.

Here in Saint Peter's Square, in the shadow of the secret conclave, this German woman drew some curious stares for her lone protest. They may be scratching their heads, but many Catholics chafe under rules that bar female priests, let alone popes.

Some Catholics watching the great screens in the square took exception to Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger at mass this morning, who said the church must stick with the old and not follow the new.

Tricia Kelly, who describes herself as a lapsed Catholic, is from England.

TRICIA KELLY, SELF-DESCRIBED, LAPSED CATHOLIC: I just feel that it doesn't really have any sort of relevance to my current life at the moment. I feel it's quite claustrophobic in its opinions.

AMANPOUR: Justin Brown has come from Australia to watch this process.

JUSTIN BROWN, AUSTRALIAN: And one of the areas that I'm concerned about mostly is the number of Catholics who are leaving the church. And part of that, I think is through some of the older teachings that they try and shove down our throats in particular and not using condoms, for example, priests not marrying.

AMANPOUR: There are also many devout Catholics who don't see the need for rapid change, such as Adrian Asselin from Canada.

ADRIAN ASSELIN, CANADIAN CATHOLIC: It's not very easy I think to open up sometimes to change some of the rules. But I think the Holy Spirit is different and has different views.

AMANPOUR: Whatever qualities they seek in the next pope, they'll have nothing but this small smokestack on the roof of the Sistine Chapel to scrutinize. On the first day, the smoke billowed black, no decision yet.

Now that the cardinals have closed the doors, their conclave inside the chapel is secret.

Christiane Amanpour, CNN -- at the Vatican.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Now, after those doors closed back in 2005, it took just 19 hours to elect Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger as Pope Benedict. The ancient and highly-secretive voting process is, of course, the focus of the award-winning papal thriller "Conclave". The movie sheds light on the tensions between the most senior figures in the Catholic Church and the role, or lack thereof, of women. Just as you saw in my report that German woman was trying to call

attention all the way back in 2005, 20 years ago.

When we come back, we head to the Olivier Awards, Britain's equivalent of the Tonys, which happen this Sunday.

I remember a delightful conversation with the late Dame Angela Lansbury, who made history as the oldest winner ever.

[11:53:32]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: And finally, the best of British theater will be celebrated here in London on Sunday night at the annual Olivier Awards. From Fiddler on the Roof" up for best musical revival to "Kyoto" up for best new play, it's a history-making evening showcasing old and new. And it's never too late to win.

In 2015, at nearly 90 years old, Dame Angela Lansbury became the oldest ever winner for her performance as the eccentric medium Madame Arcati in Noel Coward's "Blithe Spirit".

And I sat down with her when the show first opened, asking how she does it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: It's a great pleasure. "Blithe Spirit" is fabulous. You have so much stamina. Where does it come from?

DAME ANGELA LANSBURY, BRITISH ACTREES: That's the $24,000 question, truthfully. I don't know.

AMANPOUR: But when you see these amazing reviews. How old are you?

LANSBURY: 88.

AMANPOUR: I mean, it's incredible. I saw you on that stage. You stole the entire show.

LANSBURY: Oh, I hope not.

AMANPOUR: Everybody's saying that.

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: Coward's revivals stays young at heart, thanks to "Blithe Spirit" Lansbury, Dame Angela making it look effortless at 88. Lansbury makes a spirited return to her old haunt. It's great.

LANSBURY: It is lovely, isn't it? It's lovely. I'm thrilled to death. No, it's marvelous to get that kind of recognition in Britain after all these -- all these years, you know.

AMANPOUR: And what did you like about this play, "Blithe Spirit"? LANSBURY: I love -- I love Coward. I love the humor. I love the

language. I love the appearance of this woman. I love all of her nonsense and carry on. I think its such fun.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[11:59:51]

AMANPOUR: And fun, of course, is what we all need. After a career spanning eight decades across film, theater and television, the great dame died peacefully in her sleep just before her 97th birthday. Her talent, legacy and blithe spirit certainly live on.

That's all we have time for. Don't forget you can find all of our shows online as podcasts at CNN.com and on all other major platforms.

I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. Thank you for watching and I'll see you again next week.