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The Amanpour Hour

Interview With Former Deputy Secretary Of State Wendy Sherman; Interview With Former Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba; Influencers Push Propaganda In Russian-Occupied Ukraine; Interview With "Standing Together" Co-Director Alon-Lee Green; Interview with "Standing Together" Co-Director Rula Daood; White South Africans Granted Refugee Status By Trump; Post-Apartheid Reconciliation Still A Work In Progress; Cannes Film Festival. Aired 11a-12p ET

Aired May 17, 2025 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:59:45]

BRAD TODD, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I love physical books. I want to second that.

I think sushi should only be used for bait.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST: Oh. Oh wow.

TODD: Yes. This is time for fishing season to start here with Memorial Day Weekend coming up soon. And I'd like to lay that marker down that we should reserve sushi for bait.

PHILLIP: Oh, my God. Oh my.

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIP: Brad, I don't know. One day we will take you to a really good sushi spot. I will change your mind.

Ok, everyone, thank you very much. Thanks for watching "TABLE FOR FIVE".

You can catch me every weeknight at 10 p.m. Eastern with our "NEWSNIGHT" roundtable, and anytime on your favorite social media X, Instagram and TikTok.

But in the meantime, CNN's coverage continues right now.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello everyone, and welcome to THE AMANPOUR HOUR.

Here's where we're headed this week.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I've seen tremendous unity, tremendous friendship, and the whole world is watching the Middle East.

AMANPOUR: Wheeling and dealing in the Middle East. Takeaways from Trump's first major overseas trip.

And did Joe Biden really hand him the presidency? I asked his former deputy secretary of State, Wendy Sherman.

WENDY SHERMAN, FORMER DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE: There was no presidential Decision. That appeared to me to be part of any kind of cognitive decline.

AMANPOUR: Then is Putin playing chess or chicken? After this week's ceasefire talks in Turkey, Ukraine's former foreign minister Dmytro Kuleba joins me.

DMYTRO KULEBA, FORMER UKRAINIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: There are phony wars that we know from history, and now we have a case of phony diplomacy.

And how Russia is using a social media influence campaign to hang on to land that is occupied.

CLARE SEBASTIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: "This is Mariupol, our Russian town."

AMANPOUR: Plus, with Gaza facing famine and heavy bombardment, two courageous peacemakers join me Israeli Alan Lee Green and Palestinian Rula Daood on a different way forward.

Also, Trump turns away those seeking refuge from war but welcomes white South Africans into the United States. From my archives, post- apartheid reconciliation is still a work in progress, but whites are still the privileged class.

Here in the lush, rolling hills of the Cape region, change is coming slowly.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.

Deals over diplomacy: the theme of President Trump's first major overseas trip, arm in arm with jihadists and strongmen, talk of winning trillions in investments, and one luxury Qatari gifted jet that sparked rare criticism from GOP heavyweights and raised ethical questions for President Trump.

Conspicuously absent from a visit to the Middle East, a fly by America's closest ally Israel. He barely mentioned the country or unresolved plight of Palestinians.

Meanwhile, back home, Trump's supporters are crowing about a new book that details Joe Biden's decline and accusations that his inner circle tried to keep a lid on his cognitive decline ahead of the election.

I put all of this and more to Bidens number two at the State Department, former deputy secretary of State Wendy Sherman.

We started by talking about no shows at supposed peace talks between Russia and Ukraine in Turkey.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Wendy Sherman, welcome back to the program.

SHERMAN: Great to be with you.

AMANPOUR: So, let's talk about the thing in question right now, which is attempting to broker some kind of end to the Russia-Ukraine war.

Putin has not gone to Turkey. Zelenskyy is there. Putin has sent a relatively lower-level delegation than one might hope for, lower than the U.S. whose Secretary of State is there, and President Trump isn't there.

Was this all too much to expect anyway? Was all this stuff about Putin just Putin?

SHERMAN: I think this is all Putin's effort to postpone anything real to continue to bombard Ukraine and have the advantage. So now, quite frankly, President Trump has to decide whether in fact he's going to sanction Putin, whether he's going to get tough on Putin and incentivize him to actually come to the table.

Up until now there has been really no pressure on President Putin to do anything other but continue the war.

AMANPOUR: Let's move on for a second, because President Trump is in the Gulf. He seems to be really, really pleased. In fact -- in fact, when asked about this low-level Russian delegation, he said to a reporter, you're just obsessed with the delegation. Why should I be disappointed? I've come away with $4 trillion worth in deals.

Now, we're not sure about that number, but what do you make of this being an overtly, you know, business deal trip rather than a geopolitical diplomatic trip, or can the two happen together?

[11:04:48]

SHERMAN: Well, I think there, quite frankly, was one very good thing that's come out of this trip, and that is the president meeting with the new leader, al-Sharaa of Syria, and saying that the U.S. would lift sanctions against Syria, which would give them a chance to put a country together and to have a real -- excuse me -- a real future.

And I think that both Democrats and Republicans think that that was a good idea.

The broader play by Trump to create these transactions with Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and the United Arab Emirates is all about how he is approaching his presidency. It is not only transactional, it is not only business first, but it's business for the Trump family.

And so, what the president's really doing here is putting his own interests above the interests of the United States. Now, I want all of these countries to prosper and the people to do well, but the fact is that these countries remain quite authoritarian, that human rights are not acknowledged in any way, that there are people who have been unfairly detained and imprisoned, that there isn't freedom in the way that we understand it.

The president said that the U.S. will no longer intervene. They will no longer do nation-building. But what he really means is we are hands off. Do whatever you want, however you want to do it, as long as you make deals with us and help our economy grow.

He is not, obviously right now, talking about the horrifying situation in Gaza. There are talks going on to try to get a ceasefire and bring the rest of the hostages, dead or alive, out of Gaza.

But there's been a lot of action by Israel to do just the opposite, under the leadership of Prime Minister Netanyahu. So, he picks and chooses --

(CROSSTALK)

SHERMAN: -- where he's going to go.

AMANPOUR: Well, you know what, he seems to have -- I don't know what the right word is -- but has he boycotted Netanyahu? Has he -- what has he done?

And it seems that public discourse by people like yourself, by people, you know, at the United Nations is beginning to shift against this ongoing Israeli brutality against the civilians in Gaza.

Listen to the emergency relief coordinator, Tom Fletcher, from the U.N. briefing, the Security Council. I was struck by his language.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM FLETCHER, U.N. EMERGENCY RELIEF COORDINATOR: So, for those killed and those whose voices are silenced, what more evidence do you need now? Will you act decisively to prevent genocide and to ensure respect for international humanitarian law? Or will you say instead that we did all we could?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: I mean, Wendy Sherman, that is the first time I've heard that word come from that position, the "genocide" word. And I could put that question to you and the Biden administration as well.

Did you really do what had to be done or do you just say, we did the best we could and all we could?

SHERMAN: I don't think any of us have done all that we could or should when it comes to Gaza. Israel certainly had the right to defend itself after the horrifying attack by Hamas.

But what has happened since is we have led the Palestinians and Gaza to a point of starvation. We have taken away any possibility right now, and I mean this, not just we, the United States, but the world has really turned away from providing the help and creating a pathway of dignity.

AMANPOUR: Given that this war and the attack, the savagery of October 7th and the subsequent 19-month war coincided with the, you know, last two years of the Biden presidency and the reports now that are being alleged of -- as you know, you're probably aware, of his cognitive decline and of efforts by his inner circle to insulate him from scrutiny.

Based on your experience working for President Biden, were you concerned that this was happening and that potentially, you know, things were not being managed from the top?

SHERMAN: So I wasn't in the inner circle in the White House so I can't speak to some of what has been written. My own experience was a positive one. I didn't stay until the end of the administration. But up until the time that I left in 2023, I did not see any impairment when it came to the tough decisions that had to be made.

You know, I think we all have to look forward. What happened -- happened. The people of the United States clearly wanted a change. They certainly have gotten a profound change, one that I think will leave a line of destruction in rebuilding our democracy into the future.

[11:09:44]

SHERMAN: And I think we all have to be focused on where we are now, what President Trump is doing to our democracy and make sure we do everything we can to save it and to rebuild it.

AMANPOUR: Wendy Sherman, thank you very much indeed for joining us.

SHERMAN: Thank you, Christiane.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Coming up later on the show, an alternative way forward in the Middle East. I speak to two Israelis -- a Palestinian citizen of Israel and a Jew publishing and pushing together for peace.

Also ahead, Ukraine's former foreign minister gives me his take on what could have been talks with Russia.

[11:10:18]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.

Diplomatic maneuvering in the Middle East extended as far as Ukraine this week, with Kyiv's foreign minister calling Turkey the epicenter of world diplomacy.

But big carrots were dangled and then removed as Putin didn't show up to meet Zelenskyy, instead sending a delegation known for laying out Russia's hard line maximalist position when it launched the full scale 2022 invasion. According to experts, Putin also seems to be dissing the only leverage he has, a relationship with President Trump.

I asked former Ukrainian foreign minister Dmytro Kuleba about where this crisis stands now. He joined me here in London.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Welcome to the program.

KULEBA: It's good to be back.

AMANPOUR: You know a lot about these meetings. Describe what you think went -- happened. I mean, was it ever serious that Putin was going to come?

KULEBA: No, absolutely. And he was actually clear. He never promised to come. He said he would -- he was ready to resume negotiations and that kind of throws everything back to the spring of 2022 when Ukrainian and Russian delegations were seeing each other, but it didn't really have any impact on the course of the war. And I'm afraid that story will repeat itself again.

AMANPOUR: What do you think -- I don't know whether you've seen the list of names of the Russian delegation, but they seem to be much lower level than people expected. No foreign minister, no chief of staff, obviously no Putin.

KULEBA: Well, you know, there are phony wars that we know from history, and now we have a case of phony diplomacy.

You see, there is a symbolism in the delegation that President Putin sent to Istanbul this time because the head of this delegation is exactly the same person who led the Russian delegation three years ago, and it did not deliver three years ago. I'm afraid it will not deliver now.

So, he just reinforces his message that he's willing to negotiate. But the question is, if you're willing to negotiate, why did you attack at all?

AMANPOUR: Ok. Why did you attack? You could say, well, he thought he was going to get, you know, all of Ukraine, famously, as everybody says, in two to three days. It obviously didn't happen. It's been more than three --

KULEBA: But he still believes in this.

AMANPOUR: No, come on.

KULEBA: No, he does. I assure you. It's just -- for him, it's a matter of -- you know, the difference between him and President Zelenskyy and European leaders is that they are bound by electoral cycles, even if though -- even if they're interrupted by the war. But Putin isn't. He has a long -- you know, eternity ahead of him.

AMANPOUR: So what, he still eventually believes in getting Ukraine?

KULEBA: One way or another, absolutely.

AMANPOUR: So what can, for instance, a new administration seek to change in this dynamic, a new American administration?

KULEBA: Putin can put his plan on hold. I don't think he will ever be able to abandon the idea of subjugating Ukraine because that's his whole mission.

But there are very specific and clear instruments how to make him put his plans on hold, to delay them, and therefor buy time.

First and foremost, it's oil. I mean, his war machine runs on oil, on money, on oil revenues. And this is the real needle that can make him change his mind.

AMANPOUR: So, President Trump has, you know, on and off floated the idea of sanctions. Is that what you expect President Trump to do? He himself said nothing is going to change on the battlefield or in the -- around the negotiating table unless he meets with Putin?

KULEBA: In diplomacy, to make someone change his position, you have to strike the right balance between sticks and carrots, right? So, the carrot here is let's -- is when Donald Trump says, Vladimir, let's meet, let's see what we can do together. And the carrot, if you do not -- and the stick is, if you do not end the war, then this, this and this bad and that bad thing will happen to you.

What we've seen so far were all the sticks were going to Ukraine and all the carrots were going to Russia. I mean, by definition, by the very kind of fundamentals of diplomacy, it doesn't work.

Second thing to do is to continue supporting Ukraine militarily because Putin's assessment evaluation is that the West faltered, the West does not exist anymore. The United States walked away.

The moment will come when Ukraine will begin to become weaker, and that will be his opportunity.

AMANPOUR: Can I ask you though, you know, from President Biden's administration, you had pretty much a long-term commitment for diplomatic and military help. The slogan was, "for as long as it takes," you remember that.

There are some, including, you know, Ukrainian allies who believe that at least President Trump and all those who kind of don't support sending endless weapons to Ukraine in the new administration.

[11:19:48]

AMANPOUR: That at least they brought matters to a head and kind of moved the conversation away from endless war towards figuring out how to stop it.

KULEBA: Well, the need to change attitude towards the strategy was apparent, was obvious. President Trump brought new dynamics into this conversation. But as I said, in diplomacy, it's about sticks, carrots, and a sense of time. And you cannot achieve a result if you give all the sticks to Ukraine that was attacked and all the carrots to Putin.

Because who attacked? Because he just doesn't --

AMANPOUR: But don't you think it's changing a little bit that President Trump is less, you know, sticking it to Ukraine.

KULEBA: It's changing a little bit, but I can tell you that in terms of reaching a ceasefire, today we are in exactly the same moment as we were four months ago in January or six months ago or even eight months ago.

Everything we've seen so far, let's be clear about it, this were not negotiations about ceasefire. This were maneuvers to make -- to keep President Trump on his side.

AMANPOUR: Putin's maneuvers?

KULEBA: And Zelenskyy's maneuvers as well. He was also maneuvering to keep the -- to avoid Trump's wrath and anger and moves, which would put Ukraine into an even weaker position.

AMANPOUR: Is there a struggle in Europe? The idea of being a -- having to choose between giving their weapons and ammunition to Ukraine, or having to fill the massive gap that the Trump administration has created to -- for their own security? Do you think the Europeans have what it takes?

KULEBA: They certainly have the infrastructure, there's the money, and the potential to put all these pieces together and to seriously address the issue of Europe's defense, which would Ukraine -- which Ukraine would also benefit from.

Europeans have to do a very simple math exercise. They have to call Kyiv, sit down with them, and do a very simple math. Here is the amount -- volume of weapons Ukraine is spending every month. Here is the volume of weapons Europe is currently delivering, and here is the volume of weapons that will have to be delivered to compensate the absence of American deliveries. Because the moment there is a gap between what Ukraine has and what Ukraine needs to fight, this is where you will see the situation changing, the situation on the frontline.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: After the break, how online influencers are shaping the narrative in Russian-occupied Ukraine.

[11:22:32]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back.

A crucial part of any discussions over Ukraine is what happens with land captured by Russia during this war. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has made clear that his government will not recognize occupied territories as Russian.

But in the city of Mariupol, which was brutally attacked and besieged at the very start of the invasion, local influencers are trying to convince Ukrainian residents the city doesn't belong to them anymore.

Clare Sebastian has this report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CLARE SEBASTIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This is blogger school in Russian- occupied Mariupol, complete with beanbags and a selfie mirror. Run by a project called the Donbas Media Center, it offers free tuition and new skills.

Pavel Karbovsky, one of the teachers, only launched his own social channels two and a half years ago.

He tells me the school founded by a pro-Kremlin news outlet is not political. And yet the same can't be said for his own posts to his now 36,000 TikTok followers.

"Just look at what Russia is getting up to in Mariupol," he says here. "Oh, wait, they're building, not demolishing. This is Mariupol, our Russian town."

PAVEL KARBOVSKY, TEACHER, DONBASS MEDIA CENTER (through translator): My key goal is to show what's happening here, to show the truth so people stop forming their opinion on Donbas by reading Ukrainian comments which say that this is Ukraine.

It isn't. Why? We have Russian flags here, Russian passports and Russian laws.

SEBASTIAN: Three years after Russia laid siege to Mariupol, destroying, according to the U.N., an estimated 90 percent of residential buildings and killing Ukrainian officials believe around 20,000 civilians, accusing Russia of disposing of bodies to cover up war crimes, which the Kremlin denies, Mariupol is a key strategic priority for Putin.

He even visited two years ago to highlight the rebuilding efforts. And Moscow is now increasingly looking to social media as a subtle, though powerful, propaganda tool in these regions.

In January, Karbovsky was part of a group of Donetsk influencers invited to meet with Denis Pushilin, the Russian installed head of the Donetsk People's Republic.

Not everyone understands the scale of the work that's happening, he told them. The implication, they can change that.

[11:29:48]

SEBASTIAN: And it's clear, revival videos get clicks. Some are couched in lifestyle content, well-stocked grocery stores, or stylish new cafes. Others directly focused on the reconstruction.

The drama theater, flattened by a Russian attack three years ago as hundreds of civilians took shelter.

And look how beautiful, says this blogger, who goes by Masha from Mariupol, showing off brand new apartment buildings at sunset.

Mariupol's Ukrainian mayor in exile says it's an illusion, one which he believes won't work.

VADYM BOICHENKO, MARIUPOL'S UKRAINIAN EXILED MAYOR (through translator): This propaganda, these made-up clips that they are doing now in Mariupol will not help. Russia has committed a crime in Mariupol and the people of Mariupol know it.

SEBASTIAN: Satellite images do show massive reconstruction and not only in the city center. What they don't show is who gets to live there.

Multiple videos like this are now also circulating a direct appeal to Putin by former residents of a heavily-damaged eastern Mariupol neighborhood, who say they are still homeless.

Russians, meanwhile, are being lured to the city with state-sponsored mortgage rates at least 10 times lower than the market average.

And perhaps by content creators like this. 21-year-old Yelizaveta Chervyakova, born in Mariupol, unboxing her gifts from the Donbas Media Center's blogger school. She was one of a select few who completed the course, awarded with a trip to Moscow to meet top Russian influencers.

YELIZAVETA CHERVYAKOVA, CONTENT CREATOR (through translator): I met guys I had never known before. And it's clear, especially with the Donetsk fellas, that they are showcasing their city, the photos and videos. I'm watching those, I thought, I want to do that, too.

SEBASTIAN: Her own city, she accepts, is now Russian, making her part of a generation of Ukrainians Moscow is hoping will help convince others to accept that, too.

Clare Sebastian, CNN -- London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Up next, even in the most hopeless of times, Palestinian and Israeli activists Rula Daood and Alon-Lee Green continue to fight for peace.

[11:32:07]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) AMANPOUR: Welcome back.

Throughout President Trump's Middle East swing, the Israeli military continued to pummel Gaza all week, killing dozens of Palestinians, wrecking hospitals and continuing its brutal siege.

Now, "The New York Times" quotes some IDF officials admitting starvation is imminent in Gaza after denials on this program by the Israeli government.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHARREN HASKEL, ISRAELI DEPUTY FOREIGN MINISTER: These are complete lies. And I'll tell you what, we heard that a year ago. You heard about the starvation, and you saw that it was a lie. And this is the --

AMANPOUR: No, but we didn't. That's why I'm asking you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: More and more Israelis are now saying not in my name. Last week, thousands gathered in Jerusalem to rally against the brutal war. It was organized by Standing Together a Jewish and Arab movement for peace. Co-directors Alon-Lee Green and Rula Daood joined me here in the London studio to share their hopes and their joint activism.

Here's our conversation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Welcome to the program.

It's such an important moment to have you both. All the chatter seems to be really now against this ongoing war. What do you think as an Israeli?

ALON-LEE GREEN, CO-DIRECTOR, STANDING TOGETHER: I think we're in a very dangerous moment. We all heard the plans of our government to deepen the control in Gaza, to go into a new military operation, to permanently occupy Gaza, to forcefully remove all the residents of Gaza, to the south, to camps in Rafah.

And this is dangerous because it'll continue the starvation, it will continue the killing of children every day, and it'll not bring back the hostages, and for sure will not bring us safety.

On the same time, there is a real chance for a deal, the real -- there is a real chance to come back to the deal. That was the only thing that released the hostages and brought them back to their families and was the only thing that stopped the daily killing of children and families in Gaza.

This should be the way.

AMANPOUR: You're both Israelis. You are Jewish-Israeli. You are Arab- Israeli -- Palestinian-Israeli.

RULA DAOOD, CO-DIRECTOR, STANDING TOGETHER: Palestinian-Israeli.

AMANPOUR: Tell me about the protests and the movement towards for peace that you represent.

DAOOD: Yes, of course. So, Standing Together is a Jewish-Palestinian grassroots movement that works inside of Israel, inside of the Israeli society.

We -- since the October 7th, what we are focusing on is a demand at the beginning of having a hostage deal, a ceasefire.

We know and we believe that right now, this war isn't serving anybody. It's for sure not serving people in Palestine, but also people who live inside of Israel.

And the only reason this war is continuing right now is it because it is for the political interest and survival of Ben-Gvir, Smotrich, and Netanyahu. This government knows that if they will stop the war on Gaza, the government will be dismantled.

There is no majority within the Israeli society for this government anymore.

[11:39:46]

AMANPOUR: Was it difficult for you after October 7th and the savagery of what happened on October 7th to find -- to be able to reach out to your Arab brethren and find that common ground? And was it difficult for you and other Arab-Israelis to meet with your Jewish brethren after these 19 months of horror that's inflicted in Gaza?

Because there is a little bit of a competition of victimhood. At least that's how it's been described.

GREEN: Yes. I think, you know, what's the first thing we did after October 7th, after we understood what is going on during this day, after we saw the videos from Sderot with the armed Hamas fighters, after we saw the kidnaps and the slaughter in the south of Hamas, we understood that this is a moment like never before.

We understood it's a life changing event. We went on a Zoom, the entire leadership of Standing Together, half Palestinians, half Jews, and we cried. It must mean that everyone is afraid. And it must also mean that we can imagine together and act together to say that a revenge war will not be the right direction.

AMANPOUR: And Rula, how did you -- I mean, he's describing something incredibly emotional and incredibly brave to have done that Zoom so quickly after October 7th, and then you've had everything that's happened since. How do you feel about it?

DAOOD: I think that -- I always say that I'm a bit, you know, amazed, surprised, but over -- but all -- I think more full of hope. The fact that we were able to still be a movement, to be able to go

out of the street, to sit down, to think what we need to do, to still understand that we need an alternative political vision for the people living in Israel and Palestine is America itself.

We have, you know, activists who have -- had families and have families in Gaza, but we also have activists who had their, you know, beloved one killed by the Hamas attack.

And both of us were able to sit down, understand that the pain is a mutual pain, but also understand that in order to do not get to a place where it becomes worse and which is happening right now, been happening for 19 months, we need to stick together.

And we need to bring a voice that speaks about the benefits of the people living in Israel and Palestine. And we've been able to do that.

AMANPOUR: Which is remarkable.

(CROSSTALK)

AMANPOUR: We don't get to see it that much. You know, we seek you out. And we want to have these conversations, but somehow the general media or the general population does not put a focus on you grassroots teams of activists and peace lovers and peace builders.

GREEN: And you know what? It's understood. It's -- sometimes it's amazing for us to understand what you see here in Europe, in the U.S., in the rest of the world.

What do you see in your news? Because it's not what we see in our news. You see Gaza, you see dead children in Gaza. You see the rubbles. You see the destruction. You see what can only be revenge and can never be self-defense. We see something completely different.

DAOOD: The same thing goes for people in Gaza. They are not all Hamas. That is a reality.

AMANPOUR: Where do you think, Alon-Lee, last question, this is going to end? Do you believe that your movement and the others who believe like you do will somehow see a resolution?

GREEN: I think conflicts eventually resolve. We have a lot of examples in the world where we saw people fighting, people speaking to each other and not having the slightest belief that within a year it can end.

But conflicts can end. We have a -- we had a war with Egypt. We have a peace with Egypt right now. And you know what? You cannot occupy and militarily-control millions of people for decades and expect to have security.

If we will end the occupation, we will have Israeli-Palestinian peace, and this is what we're fighting for.

AMANPOUR: It's really incredible to hear your voices and very inspiring.

Rula, Alon-Lee, thank you so much.

GREEN: Thank you so much.

DAOOD: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And you can see the whole conversation online.

Still to come, the first white South Africans have landed as welcome refugees in the United States this week. We look back at my report on the long post-apartheid path to reconciliation and progress in that rainbow nation.

[11:44:01]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Welcome back.

Upon entering the White House, the Trump administration quickly closed the door on almost all nonwhite refugees, even those from war-torn countries like Sudan and Congo. But this week, it rolled out the welcome mat for a privileged class white South Africans.

Dozens of Afrikaners, as they are known, have been granted rare refugee status in the United States. These are descendants of those who pioneered and enforced the brutal, decades' long apartheid regime, who somehow managed to convince the Trump administration they faced discrimination.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: There's a genocide that's taking place that you people don't want to write about, but it's a terrible thing that's taking place. And farmers are being killed.

They happen to be white, but whether they're white or black makes no difference to me. But white farmers are being brutally killed and their land is being confiscated in South Africa.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[11:49:44]

AMANPOUR: The government there says this is baseless and false. Decades after white minority rule ended, black farmers still own just a small fraction of the country's best farmland, with the majority still in white hands.

From the archive, my 1997 report on the long and painful path to reconciliation and equality.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) AMANPOUR: Harvest season has started and the vineyards are alive with pickers bringing in the grapes. It's backbreaking work from sunup to sundown and sweating through the midday heat.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This case is heavy.

AMANPOUR: Pickers get paid by the crate. The average monthly wage $90. Only $60 at the worst paid farms.

At the end of the day, they get a drink. But for years, many vineyards used to pay their workers cheap wine in lieu of full wages. The result -- generations of alcoholics and virtual slave labor. Today, that practice is disappearing, but its legacy remains.

There have been many changes since South Africa's transition to democracy. Integrated schools, better business practices and more social justice. But here, in the lush, rolling hills of the Cape region, change is coming slowly.

For 80 years, winemaking has been the exclusive domain of the white man. He has always been boss. Blacks have always been his laborers.

Today, one man is trying to change that. Jabulani Enchangazi (ph) is the only black manager in the industry. He brought back skills that he learned in Europe and the U.S. And he's now training blacks to become wine merchants, managers and estate owners.

But even in the new South Africa, it's an uphill struggle.

JABULANI ENCHANGAZI, MANAGER: It's like what we call the old boys club. Not warming up to allow in the newcomers.

AMANPOUR: So to help the newcomers, Jabulani has started an apprentice program. Bongani was a janitor here. Eventually, he wants to own a wine shop.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And put it up in your nose and give it a deep smell.

AMANPOUR: Until now, blacks had no opportunities in this industry. When Carmen Stevens first applied to study viticulture at the university, she was turned down.

CARMEN STEVENS, WINEMAKER: No, you can't because you're not white.

AMANPOUR: Today, she's the only qualified nonwhite winemaker. But many believe the industry owes the black majority. After all, only majority rule ended sanctions and allowed exports to flourish.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I think that in those circumstances, its beholden upon the white farmers to make some sort of gestures in return.

AMANPOUR: Some have. Gilly Hanekom has a black foreman, and he, like many other wine farmers, want to expand domestic consumption. GILLY HANEKOM, WINE MAKER: If the blacks start drinking wine, they

will start learning their people to drink wine. And then we will get much more money for our wine.

AMANPOUR: Money may focus the mind, but do the white farmers really have the heart for reconciliation in the vineyards?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The beginning of it? Maybe the beginning.

AMANPOUR: Most South African blacks have been tolerant, waiting and hoping for change. Now they say they need to see it before their tolerance runs out.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: In reforms aimed at rectifying the sins of apartheid, back in January President Cyril Ramaphosa signed a new law which allows the government to expropriate land in rare adjudicated cases, sometimes without compensation.

Those reforms are now at the heart of Trump's ongoing beef with South Africa, also spurred on by South African-born Elon Musk.

When we come back, a breakthrough star now on the judging panel at the Cannes Film Festival. My conversation with director Payal Kapadia.

[11:53:46]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: And finally, the stars are descending on Cannes in France for the annual film festival. Close to 3,000 films have been screened to narrow down the official selection, which is often a crucial tastemaker for the year ahead in movies.

Making the all-important judgments on the jury panel this year is someone who was a breakout star last year, Payal Kapadia. She won the Grand Prix at Cannes in 2024 with her very first feature, "All We Imagine as Light", bringing the first Indian film to the festival in 30 years.

This week, she said that recognition helped to get the film distributed even in her home country.

I sat down with Payal Kapadia here in London after that win.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: I just want to say what you said there. "Please don't wait another 30 years to have an Indian film." So how did you feel when you won?

PAYAL KAPADIA, DIRECTOR: I mean, it was a really amazing moment. I was already so excited that the film was in competition with so many directors whose films I really admire, and to be in the competition, we were all pinching ourselves. And then to win a prize was surreal. AMANPOUR: So tell me about "All We Imagine as Light". What does the

title mean? And what, in short, is the film about? Because it's directly through the eyes of three women.

[11:59:52]

KAPADIA: The title has to do with the possibility of imagining another life, especially in a society where (AUDIO GAP) sort of world is so all consuming that it's very difficult sometimes to think that there's another way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And as she judges films at Cannes, Payal Kapadia is certainly paving her own way.

That is all we have time for this week.

Don't forget, you can find all our shows online as podcasts at CNN.com/audio and on all other major platforms.

I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. Thank you for watching and see you again next week.